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I'm Mike Boris and this is Straight Talk.
I've actually set a new target.
I'm loving Live for 100.
Body dysmorphia is absolutely right up there.
Has been an incredible campaigner for body image in this country.
The Australian of the year for 2023 is Taryn Brumford.
Australia, it is not our life's purpose to be at war with our body.
Like, life is one big adventure if you allow it to be
and being anchored down.
It's so problematic and it doesn't have to be this way.
We come in all different shapes, sizes, abilities, colours of bodies.
There is no one right way to be and you are who you are
and it's forever changing and evolving.
Your joints change throughout the years.
Tell me about it.
Has the body positivity movement gone too far?
You can't look after something that you don't love
but I think when we're looking at others
and wanting to love, we're looking at something that we don't love.
And to look like them, that's fundamentally just a bit weird, don't you think?
Taryn Brumford, welcome to Straight Talk.
Thanks for having me.
You got my name right.
It's a good start.
2023, Australian of the year.
That is so fucking cool, man.
That is unbelievable.
That is pretty cool.
I think that's what my dad said too.
We come from the same borough.
That's a pretty cool thing though.
Have you sort of had to take a breath and think about that?
I mean, the consequences of that and what it all means?
I'm living the consequences of it every day
but for me, not really.
I don't think it's really sunk in yet
but I think that's with all things that I've ever done
when it comes to I'm heading here,
I've got a direction to go in,
I don't get lost in the analysis of the feelings.
You get stuck in the weeds.
No, I'm really focused on what we're doing this year
so it's a great platform
and yeah, I'm really proud of it
and I'm really grateful to have it
as a part of my life.
I'm really grateful to have it as a part of my life.
If I just put the platform aside for a second
because that's obviously what you stand for,
that's what Tyrone represents in Australia
and in fact around the world.
It's sort of about mindset.
It's a big event,
Australian of the Year 2023,
expectations, obligations, etc.
Does someone like Tyrone,
the best way to deal with this
is just to play what's in front of you
or you just said,
you don't get caught up in the weeds,
you don't overanalyze stuff.
Do you just play what's in front of you?
Is that the best way to get through
these sorts of awesome events
and take it all in your stride?
Yeah, I mean, I think people know me
for taking things in my stride.
I don't get too caught up in the feelings.
Although I have to say,
leading up to Australian of the Year,
it did my head in
because I couldn't control it.
So usually with goals that I set,
it's on my agenda
and if I fail or go off course,
and I control the situation.
But this was completely out of my control.
What do you mean?
Well, we didn't know
who was going to win that night,
but I knew that I really wanted to,
but I had no control over that.
So I just had to sort of relinquish
whatever was being read out
and I'm grateful that it was my name.
But yeah, I just knew
what this title would do
for what I live and breathe,
which is body image.
And I just, I wanted it so bad.
And usually when I want something,
I just go and get it
and I do it myself
and I do the work
or I learn how to do it
or I surround myself
with the right people.
it was completely out of my hands.
Do you believe in the universe will deliver
or are you someone who says,
I've got to go grab it
and get control of it
and make it happen?
Do you know, a little bit of both.
I think because I dropped out of school
So I think I've been,
hustling my whole life.
So I know how to hustle really well.
And it's probably when I really step
into my masculine,
I'm like going to go get something
and do something.
I have in the last few years
really gotten curious around
what it means to be
in a little bit more flow.
And maybe that comes with age as well.
So I think it's a balance of both.
Yes, I believe that woo woo,
that the universe will deliver.
There's definitely a big part of me
that believes that.
But I will never not,
go and get what I want to get
and have a plan to do it.
So yeah, a bit of both.
So as I see you looking at the 2023
Australian of the Year,
someone who stands for something
in relation to probably males as well,
but definitely females,
young and old image of themselves
and to be proud of what they look like
without compromising health.
How did you learn to hustle?
Why did you learn to hustle?
Um, well, I dropped out of school
when I was 15 because I was bullied.
I changed schools, started a new school.
The boys like me, the girls didn't.
And, um, I just really sucked,
you know, being, being, being bullied.
What does that mean?
You mean you got beaten up or what does that mean?
No, no one could beat me up.
See, I have a boxing history too.
I'm obsessed with boxing.
So no, it wasn't physical,
but it, um, it was pretty ruthless
in terms of what they would sort of say
about me or the clothes that I wore.
Or whatever it was at the time.
It just, I didn't love school.
I didn't like sitting there for hours,
you know, at a time.
And now I have kids who are exactly like me,
which is quite problematic.
But, um, you know, the best thing I ever did
was I went and worked as a dishwasher in a cafe
and I worked for Greeks and they taught me.
That would have been tough on you.
It was the toughest,
but it was the best training ground
for doing things in an efficient way,
about customer service,
about, about any kind of service.
Can you give a shout out to Lenny and Nick now,
or whoever it is?
What, what, you remember their names?
Yeah, Dimmy and Evan.
At Cafe Paradiso.
And then their son Basil ran it.
And yeah, best thing ever.
So I was washing dishes forever.
And, um, well, it felt like forever.
Then occasionally I could serve someone a gelati,
which was my next step up.
And then eventually I made it to making coffees,
but it was the best.
Harder task masters, I guess.
And thank goodness for that,
because then I applied, you know,
all of those ethics to every job I've ever worked since.
And I've done all sorts of jobs.
I've worked as security at nightclubs,
and nursing homes, in cafes.
I was, I think I was probably a little bit lost
for quite some time.
I didn't know what it was that I wanted to do.
And then I was a telemarketer.
And then I was an operations manager
for a hotel marketing company.
Then I found my creative side.
It's really interesting when you've,
when you are a creative, everyone's creative,
but you've been told that you're not.
And my parents weren't creative.
So it was never encouraged to go be a photographer
When I picked up my camera after I had my first child,
I taught myself how to use it.
And I think three months later, I'd started my own business.
And I did that for 10 years before the...
Professional photographer.
Like weddings and stuff like that.
Kids, I did start, I did do a few weddings.
That'd have been a punish.
The things that you would want to say, you know,
the things that you just want everyone...
Anyway, it was a moment in time.
But for me, you know, when everything changed
after I had my child about how I felt about my body,
that's when it was a really slippery slope
in terms of how I showed up in the world.
You know, I was really happy and then I lived in this body
that I hated and I thought the only thing I could do
was get it fixed because there's a narrative
around when something's broken, you just fix it
and then you're happy and that's what I tried to do.
Did your body disappoint you during your pregnancy?
In other words, did you sort of go,
ah, damn it, I'm pregnant, it doesn't really matter,
I'm going to eat everything I can?
Did you stack a whole lot of weight on sort of irresponsibly,
you know, like in current thinking?
Or did you, or was it just because of the fact
that you had a baby and there was no longer
a baby in there once the baby's born
and there's stretch marks and whatever else?
I mean, tell me, do you mind sharing,
I know it sounds a bit crude, but do you mind sharing
with me why you've felt unhappy with the after effects of it all?
I'm going to call you out.
You've not seen my documentary, have you, Mark?
I've seen parts of it.
I've seen the photograph of before and after.
So because I talk about it, I loved my body when I was pregnant.
I loved growing a baby.
What does that mean you loved your body?
You liked the way everything changed?
Yeah, that's right.
I had a big bump and, you know, I was one of these women
who would just like rub soap all over my belly in the shower
and just think it was glorious.
But then after I had my first child, I remember having a shower
and having like a real what the fuck moment
because what had been this glorious bump was this jelly belly mess.
Then the narrative is get your body back, which I tried to do,
but I couldn't get it back.
It was, you know, stretch marks and things had gone south
and things had changed.
I did that cycle three times.
So I had three kids in three and a half years.
Loved my body pregnant, didn't like it, et cetera.
And then eventually I just went, oh, I'll just get surgery.
Like I'll get a breast augmentation and a tummy tuck
and I can be like all those other women that I look at
who are so happy in their bodies.
And, yes, I went to the surgeon and he agreed that I needed to be fixed,
which is really interesting.
That's his job, I guess.
Like a plastic surgeon.
Yeah, of course you're going to agree.
I went home and I was watching my daughter play in front of me
and I had this epiphany, which was how am I going to teach Michaela
to love her body if I can't?
And if I have surgery, what will that do for her?
And it's always really important for me to mention that just
because I didn't have surgery, it doesn't mean anyone is listening
who has Botox or does whatever.
Like I don't care.
Your body, your rules.
My body, my rules.
There's no room for judgment because we're all just doing our best.
But for me, it wasn't the right choice.
And then that's when I said to my trainer at the gym,
I just wonder what it would feel like to have the perfect body.
Would it change me?
Would it make me happy?
So then that's when she said, why don't you do a bodybuilding competition?
Yeah, and that's pretty crazy because I like the gym and I see some
of the girls in the gym, the bodybuilders, you know,
like we go into competition and they're like full on, like fuck,
like it's no, they're full on their diet, full on their training regime,
full on what they do.
It's like totally a job and they sort of become a little bit obsessed
with the way, with what they're doing in order to get to the shape
they want to get to.
And I've seen photographs of you in your bodybuilding period,
like, you know, your kid on and, you know, you look like a bodybuilder.
Like you look like a typical proper bodybuilder that I've seen
hanging around the gyms.
I can't understand why, I mean, I can understand why you might want
And maybe get shape back, but why did you go the extra step?
Because that's just who I am.
I'm just wired in that particular way.
It's all or nothing.
And it felt like a really good target to try and achieve.
Yeah, it was a goal to get on stage.
And, I mean, my body wasn't really too bodybuilder-ish, you know,
like it was more sort of fitness competition.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, yeah, I lost like 15 kilos and, you know,
I ate chicken and broccoli and was the most boring person.
That's fucking boring, man.
And it's obsessive.
We can't do it properly unless you obsess about it.
But I can understand that Tyrone has lost 15 kilos,
but at the same time you're also trying to change your shape
to a certain audience.
Why did you do that?
I mean, what was driving you?
What were you thinking?
Or this is another example, look, I just play what's in front of me.
I'm going to go in this competition and try and win it.
Is that your thinking?
Well, I mean, the body that I was,
after was the very stereotypical body that we see on billboards
or magazines or TVs, like that's the body that I thought
would make me happy, that hot bikini body.
And I pretty much got that body.
I mean, I still had to glue part of my stomach into my.
Like actual glue?
Yes, because I had like excess skin from having the three kids.
So you glued it down under your bikini.
I don't think I've ever shared that before.
It just came back to me.
But yeah, and really funny being on that stage
and being in front of 900 people.
I saw one person, that's my dad, because he has like silver fox hair.
And I was just like, oh, my gosh, out of everyone here, why can I see?
My dad's in the front, my God.
Yeah, it was just kind of, I mean, never say never.
That's the other thing I've learned in life.
Because had you told me, you know, a few years before that,
that I would have done a competition and gone on stage in a bikini,
That's not who I am.
But I did and I'm really grateful for it.
You said you weren't happy with the outcome.
I mean, as you're building up and you're getting into that situation
and the last day you get up on the stage and you've got all the tanning lotion
on you, whatever it is, you've got your little thing tucked down there
and you're up there and you're, you know, doing your poses
and everybody's clapping and cheering and, you know, you've got your result.
What did you think?
Did you think, what the fuck am I doing up here?
Did you think, or was it the next day you thought, now it's all over?
Oh, shit, what am I doing now?
I mean, where did your head go?
I was watching a row of judges, like, writing notes down.
And that's when I had a moment of, like, I just wanted to grab the microphone
and say, well, I did want to say, like, stop cheering me on
because here is a woman that has been obsessed for, you know, 12 weeks,
eating, you know, restricted foods, training at the gym twice a day.
Physically I might look like something that you want to clap,
but emotionally, spiritually, mentally,
I was so soulless during that time.
You know, I just, yeah, I'm a pretty high vibe, fun person to be around,
and I just wasn't.
And it's also not sustainable.
So you can't live that way.
And I go, like, I mean, how many stories I've heard of women who are models
in wherever around the world, and they end up having mental health problems
because of the lack of food they eat.
It's funny, I was talking to a boxer yesterday,
and I talked to his trainer, and he's fighting tomorrow night.
He dropped from 74 kilos down to 5 to 62 kilos,
which is not unusual for fighters.
And the trainer said how angry he was at the moment
because he's on food restriction, on salt restriction,
on taste restrictions, no vegetables,
because vegetables hold too much water, therefore give you too much weight,
even though there's no calories in them, they carry weight in them.
And about how his mood had changed
and how he turned into a real bastard of a person,
It was really difficult to be with.
Did you experience any of that sort of stuff?
Because, I mean, why the hell would you go and do that?
I mean, I'm not suggesting you would not have known unless you did it,
but why the hell would you expect that I could live my life like that,
someone who's obsessed with my body image,
my image fitting into a certain stereotype,
if I'm going to be fucking unhappy and be a prick around everybody?
I mean, did you experience that?
Yeah, definitely.
But for me, it was a social experiment.
I didn't know how I was going to feel before, during, or after.
I just was curious to know what it felt like to have that body.
And, yeah, I was a nightmare to be around.
And I was short with my kids
and I was argumentative with my then-husband at the time.
And I would go out for meals with friends
and I'd pull out a little Tupperware container of lettuce leaves and chicken.
Like, that's not fun.
That's not getting together with friends to eat and enjoy.
So, yeah, it was a very small part of my life
that then led on to the last 10,
10 years of work.
And on stage, I realised that my body is not an ornament to be looked at.
Like, I'm here to do and contribute and enjoy life as one big adventure.
And what I've been doing for the last few months
doesn't allow that to happen, so.
Just a slightly different way of looking at it.
Is the problem for people who have a poor image of themselves
because they might be not fit into the stereotypical body,
like a bodybuilder or front page of a magazine,
women's magazine or magazine or a bikini model?
Is that the problem?
Or actually, is the problem those people who are trying to be,
when it's not naturally the case,
trying to be this image as a model or as a bodybuilder,
who end up with mental health problems and all sorts of things?
So, like, who's calling that out?
Because that's an issue for me also.
As much it is for all the people in Australia and around the world,
who feel like crap because they're told they're going to look like a Kardashian
and they don't, naturally.
And, you know, without a bit of surgery,
you're not going to look like a Kardashian.
But also there's an issue about those people
who are actually trying to look like a Kardashian,
who are never going to look like a Kardashian,
but they get close.
But even if they become a Kardashian, they can't sustain it,
they can't maintain it.
And everyone who hangs around their environment
is having a shit time too, apart from being very expensive.
There's a double problem.
I think it's when we try and,
you know, be anything other than what we are.
You know, I'm not about promoting mediocrity in any way, shape or form.
But I think when we're looking at others and wanting to look like them,
like that's fundamentally just a bit weird, don't you think?
Like we are who we are.
Well, when you're young, it's not weird.
But as we get older, we think we know it's when we're smarter.
Well, because we're wide to compare.
Human beings are wide to compare ourselves to others.
So, you know, social media is a massive platform
where people spend a lot of time doing that.
I mean, it's wide.
We know about the Kardashians.
And I think if we, instead of filling our feeds with appearance-based images,
maybe we could fill up our feeds with people who are doing or teaching us
or cat videos or things that make us laugh.
Let's just stop comparing our bodies to others.
Why do you think we do that?
I mean, is there an instinct to do it or is there somebody at the back
that's controlling the agenda?
Like where is this coming from?
I think there's a lot of people and a lot of industries
who are responsible, whether it's beauty, cosmetic, diet industries.
But what I'm trying to share with people now is the world will be what it is.
How do we relate to it?
What lens do we apply?
Because I'm in the same body, actually an older body now
that I was obviously 10 years ago, and I'm still in this world
that tells me to be something that I'm not, but I'm not buying into it
because I've got far more important things to do.
So if we can empower people that it's not their life,
life's purpose, to be at war with their bodies and to get on with it
and to, you know, I use it as a bit of a shock technique actually
a lot of the times.
We get 28,000 days on the planet if we're lucky.
Well, so it takes us to 80 or something.
Yeah, like the average age is like 84.
Like it's not a lot of days.
For women, not for men.
We're about 600 days less.
But it's like it's not our life's purpose to be hung up on our cellulite
or our stretch marks or whatever.
Because when you're there,
you're not going to be able to do it.
You're not going to be dying or you're about to take your last breath.
I always ask people.
It doesn't matter a rat's ass.
What are you going to be thinking about when you take your final breath?
And no one says they're big bum or they're cellulite or whatever.
It's like those things actually don't matter.
And it's actually a balance of this.
So I still get my hair done and, you know, I do bits and pieces to my body.
No surgery, of course, but it's just a balance of how I feel
And I think we as a society have put,
too much focus on how we look and we've forgotten how we feel.
It's the reason why 70% of Australian school children
consider body image to be their number one concern.
Body image is such a big problem in this country
and I think only now are we understanding the ramifications
of a poor body image.
It's not hashtag love your body, everybody.
It's actually, it's mental illness.
It's creating depression.
It's depression, steroid use in our young boys.
It's so problematic and it doesn't have to be this way.
Can I ask you a question?
You said it's not how we look, it's how we feel.
What would you say to someone who says,
because the way I look I feel like shit,
therefore I want to fix my body and therefore I feel shit about myself.
I feel depressed because I look like shit.
I think I look like shit.
How do you change their mind or how do you get their mindset
around a different direction like to say,
no, just be happy with being what you are?
How do you do that?
I mean, we tackled this in the Embrace Kids documentary
because what we're trying to show everyone is that we come
in all different shapes, sizes, abilities, colours of bodies,
that there is no one right way to be and you are who you are.
I think it's also about changing the metrics because I often get this one
around health and fitness and, you know, I've run a couple of marathons.
I'm training for my third one right now.
I saw you running through the end of the marathon.
Do we even call that running?
Well, you got there.
I haven't done a marathon so that's pretty cool.
I've done a half but not a full one.
Well, that one, the Melbourne marathon, I did it in five and a half hours
and then I did the Adelaide one a couple of years ago in four and a half
and now I'm thinking about doing the New York in three and a half.
As I get older, I'll get quicker.
Are you going to get a New York one, are you?
Is this my invitation only or something?
You can't just pretend I'm turning up.
Yeah, toying with it.
I haven't committed fully yet.
I'm just trying to get back out on the road and just seeing how the body feels
to do another one because it's a big commitment.
It's a big commitment on.
How do you turn kids into thinking that it's acceptable to be
or to be happy with what they've got?
Yeah, I mean we're getting there.
The message has been received really well from kids.
It's actually easier to speak to kids than it is adults.
Now we're talking about teenagers or what?
Yeah, gosh, a few months ago it was sort of five and six-year-olds.
They're the best ones because they're so close to the purity of being born
before the wild world gets them.
They're just so in their joy.
I mean if you look at toddlers, they hear music and they dance.
They're more than happy to do a naked run through the street
because the world hasn't got to them yet and said,
oh, your body's terrible, whatever the world's saying.
But kids really get it and it's about a conversation about diversity
and how diversity is beautiful.
Diversity in look, you mean?
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, in the film we have a range of different kids,
some kids with disability.
Kids with different backgrounds, ethnicities, experiences in life
and film is just such a great way to convey a story
and it's really exciting.
There's a child in the film called Enzo who's everyone's favourite
and he has progeria and it's an illness where he's really visibly short
and his bones are very frail and he's very frail.
But I suspect through hearing his story, instead of being fearful
of talking to Enzo, what am I going to get, there's more of an acceptance
because when you hear everyone's stories and experiences,
it allows for a space for people to open up and to not fear difference
and to really celebrate, I guess, inclusivity and diversity.
It's a beautiful thing.
So body image for you is all aspects of body image
and love the body you have.
That's the message you're sort of trying to get out there.
It doesn't matter if you're a kid or someone at my age,
it's body acceptance.
So it doesn't even need to be love.
You can just like it or be okay with it.
You don't have to love your body.
I mean, I choose to, but I've also done a whole heap of reframing
about the parts of my body that I once hated or felt very shameful about.
You know, my legs is a great example, like cellulite and stretch marks,
but now I see them in the lens of run-to marathons, amazing.
Even my arms, it's such a funny one for women.
You know, they call them tuck shop arms.
Women are like, oh, my gosh, I don't want anyone to see this part of my arm.
But I always joke that, you know, when I wave to someone,
I have the world's friendliest arms because my arms keep going, keep waving.
But it's the reframe of there's nothing wrong with my arms.
My arms allow me to hug my kids and my loved ones.
My legs allow me to run and dance and do all the things.
Like there is such joy in the reframe of how you feel about your body,
but there's also a lot of power.
I think people, for 10 years,
it's been in the space of the hashtag love your body,
just trying to put body image on the map is something important to talk about.
Now we're understanding what it means to embrace your body
and it's good for everyone.
It's good for the health system.
It's good for business.
You know, our country spent $69 billion on eating disorders last year.
You know, I mentioned earlier 70% of our kids think body image
is their number one concern.
And then we know that.
Kids who experience body dissatisfaction are 24 times more likely
to be depressed or have anxiety.
So it's like if you just put all that together, big problem.
But we know how to fix it because the science tells us what to do.
So health versus body image.
So out of all the various images of the body, someone who's overweight.
But let's say they're just overweight because they have an unhealthy
eating environment, they don't exercise, they don't really care.
What would you say to them?
Lose some weight.
I mean, what's your conversation there?
No, I would never talk about anyone's weight, weight loss
or weight gain ever.
Like we all need to lose that narrative because it doesn't help people.
Just this morning I was doing a talk and I was mentioning my brother who-
I know because she had different clothes on and you got changed for me.
You looked all dressed up and nowhere to go.
And I think she got dressed up like this to come and talk to me
and then you went and got changed.
You're just relaxed around you, Mark.
That's what it is.
That's what it is.
But yeah, I was telling this audience about my brother who played Sean Penn's
movie double in The Thin Red Line.
So when you're an actor like Sean Penn, you don't run up the hill.
Someone else does it for you and that's what my brother did.
And people would describe Jason as tall and handsome and charismatic
and he was like a magnet for people.
And if I put Jason here and then put a man in a larger body next to him
and then asked a hundred people,
who do you think is healthier?
They all would have chosen Jason.
But he was a heroin addict.
He actually died just down the road at a park bench at opposite central train station.
We just don't know what's going on in people's lives.
We can't judge anyone and their health just by what they look like.
Weight stigma has caused so many issues for people in larger bodies
and it doesn't actually drive them to healthier outcomes.
Now that we know that and the science says that,
these obesity campaigns that we've had for 20 years
have done such a disservice to everyone,
made people in larger bodies feel a whole heap worse about their bodies.
What we need to do is remind everybody that you can't look after something
that you don't love.
Like I really respect my body.
I don't mind a fillet fish occasionally,
but I wouldn't sink one every day because I want to get the most from this body.
I want to have a good life.
I want to have a good life.
I want to have a good life.
I want to have a good life.
I want to have a good life.
I want to have a good life.
I want to have a good life.
I want to have a good life.
I want to have lots of energy.
That's my core value.
So I want to nourish it.
I want to move it.
But mostly I enjoy it.
Like life is one big adventure if you allow it to be
and being anchored down by how you feel about your body is no life.
It sidelines us in our life.
Let's say someone is overweight and because they're overweight,
they've got kids and stuff like that and they find it difficult
to play with their kids or they get worn out really quickly
because they're fat.
You know, the level of fitness, you know, the heart-lung fitness is laboring
because of the amount of blood they've got to push around the system
in order to, you know, get that weight moving, that heavy weight moving.
Would you say to them, look, don't reflect on your weight
and the image of yourself but more reflect on why you want
to maybe lose some weight in order that you can go
and enjoy your life much more or go do a marathon, for example.
Because, you know, if you were –
another 20 kilos heavier, you probably couldn't do the marathon
that you're about to do.
It would be very difficult.
Yeah, I think it's about changing the metric.
So I think for such a long time, we have measured health
by the number on the scale.
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Which then drives behavior, not in a good way,
because the number on the scale can make us feel bad about ourselves.
And when we feel bad, we go and eat the pie.
The science says that.
That's a really truncated down version of what science says.
Weight stigma and shame does not lead us to lifelong positive action
around our body, whether that's what we eat or how we move.
So I think it's about changing the metric and not thinking about weight
and size and a number on a scale, but more so finding joy
in moving your body.
You know, there's this thing, this narrative,
around exercise, that it's something that we have to do.
I think we've forgotten actually how great it is to move our bodies.
And for me, it's about intuitively moving.
Some days I still lift heavy weights and I go to the gym because I've got
to get whatever is in me out.
Other days, I'm like, oh, I just got to chill out.
I might just do some yoga or some Pilates.
But I think that we've forgotten that moving our bodies is, yeah,
it's good for us, but it's fun also.
So the body movement is all about body movement.
Yeah, the body image movement, exactly.
Yeah, I mean, 100%.
Because that's all gym is, is movement.
I mean, like we get a bit caught up in should we do squats and deadlifts
and whatever, bench press and all that sort of stuff.
But really, they are just forms of movement with some resistance on it.
So really, it's about movement.
So what you would say to somebody in the category I just was talking
about earlier is just move and get your mind around why you want to move.
You want to move because you want to, as you say,
enjoy the adventure of life, whether it's doing a marathon
or just walking up on Mount Kilimanjaro or even if it's walking
around the base of Ayers Rock, which is hard enough,
it doesn't really matter.
It doesn't matter how big or small.
You don't have to be doing what Taryn's doing.
You don't have to run a marathon.
They don't have to copy you.
They don't have to jump in the ring and box.
They don't have to go into a bodybuilding competition.
Just move your body.
And then enjoy the adventure.
And that's what we're teaching our kids.
Move, nourish, respect, enjoy your body.
Did I just mention fillet of fish?
No, but actually, I have a funny story about that.
When I was 16, no, I was 17 and a half, I just had my license
and one of the jobs that I had is I had to drive around
in this Caprice, which in those days was a pretty fancy car,
at least it was to me.
I was a driver for this old guy and he was a brigadier general
and I was his, like, driver, like, you know,
and his family used to pay me to take this.
His old man was very, very old.
He used to, I used to pick him up every Friday when I was off uni
and I would drive him around and he loved me
and he'd take me to McDonald's at the end of it
and please go up and buy me a McDonald's fillet of fish burger.
I never had been to McDonald's.
I never had a McDonald's, but I started eating this fillet of fish
and actually I fell in love with this fillet of fish.
That's the only thing I would eat out of McDonald's,
the fillet of fish, so there's nothing wrong with it.
So just getting off that, it's not about me, it's about you.
So what would you say then to people about, you know,
making sure that they, apart from embracing the adventure,
but what would you say to them about,
the levels of movement and do they need to start to improve the movement?
So to say, okay, you do a little bit here,
should you start to get, you know, build on that or, you know,
and should you start to build on that just so you can enjoy your,
the adventure of life or should you be building on that
to increase your heart rate or not your heart rate,
your heart's capacity to make sure that you avoid things like heart disease?
I mean, where do those things fall into this whole narrative?
Yeah, I mean, it's such an individual choice
and it's forever changing and evolving.
You know, for me in my 45-year-old body,
I'm now noticing that I have to do more stretching and more yoga
because, you know, I always want to be able to touch my toes,
but you notice your bodies and your joints change throughout the years.
So it's just like a new thing for me.
I'm like, I don't like this, quick, I need to do more yoga.
But really it's up to the individual.
I remember last year when I was making the film, you know,
sometimes you just get so stuck in the edit rooms
and you don't see the light of day very often.
And I remember climbing the stairs and I got really puffed and I was like,
oh, I don't like that at all.
I must pick up the, you know, the aerobic, the cardio workouts.
So it ebbs and flows and changes and I think we need to get really intuitive
with how we move our bodies and how we nourish our bodies because we know.
We don't need to read any magazine or have anyone else tell us.
If we're really in tune with ourselves and our bodies, we know what we need to do.
For me, it's lots of sleep.
I love eight hours of sleep a night.
It's getting out in the sun to move my body.
It's getting into nature.
And it's having, eating nourishing foods that fuel me,
that give me all the energy I need.
And it's about energy at the end of the day.
It's pretty simple.
Energy is a really important part of all this.
I mean, especially the physics and the chemistry of energy as opposed
to how I look on a picture on Instagram.
But it's about the physics and chemistry of energy,
Where we get energy from and how it works.
Because without energy, we can't do anything.
It's not about fitness.
It's about energy.
I think it's a really good point you make.
I want to ask you something.
Do people like, I'm not having a crack at them, right?
Because I don't even know them.
The Kardashians, Chris Hemsworth, he did that show recently on about biological age
versus chronological age and how you can maybe reverse it.
It was on Netflix and I watched part of it.
Do they help the cause or do they make it even worse?
Because I'm watching Chris Hemsworth there.
He looks like, well, he's Thor.
He looks like God just jumped off Mount Olympus.
And I'm thinking, yeah, dude, not many people are going to be able to do that.
Because you've trained your whole life and you've got instructors
and you've got every other thing to assist you to look that way.
And I guess the Kardashians put everybody in the same position.
How do you respond to that?
I know you don't judge anybody, but how do you respond to the effect of what they do?
Because the effect of what they do is sort of judging everybody else.
I think if there's honesty and transparency about what it takes to get your particular body
to look that way, whether that's working out at the gym, whether it's steroids,
I think if we can be really transparent about it, then that helps, you know,
the mere mortals out here who compare ourselves.
So in other words, get up and be accountable and say,
listen, I took some sort of peptides or steroids to look like Thor for the movie.
I mean, Embrace Men is the final film that I'll make, you know, as the trilogy of films.
And this is actually one part of the film that I, you know,
I'm in research and development stage, so I haven't mapped it out yet
and still trying to finance it and fundraise for it.
But when young boys look at a Thor as an example,
or when they look at a Thor as an example,
or Wolverine or whoever they are,
they need to know that what they're looking at is not real.
They need to know what happens behind the scenes.
I mean, there's a classic quote by a man called Steve Furtick that says,
don't compare your behind the scenes with everyone else's highlight reel.
And we're so quick to do that.
But if they knew the story to get there, maybe they wouldn't.
Chris Hemsworth, he used to have to consume 2.2 grams per kilogram of his body weight
in protein just to be able to keep up with the training programs
he was doing every day in order to become Thor.
And that's, again, that's not sustainable.
It's the sort of thing you went through to do your bodybuilding competition.
And that's definitely not sustainable.
And what you're saying, and maybe there was some other assistance.
He might have been getting all sorts of things to help him, you know,
add muscle to his body.
Are you saying that it'd be good if they just got up and said,
listen, guys, girls, I had some help in this show.
To make this movie and to get to look like that.
Are you suggesting that's what you want them to say?
I think it'd be hugely helpful.
I have a, actually, it's really funny that Chris Hemsworth has come up
because I've got a picture of him on my whiteboard in my office for Embrace Men
because I think that it would not just help kids.
I think it would help everyone to understand the grueling regime it takes to do that.
Because that's their job.
It is their job, you know, just like the Kardashians.
It's their job to.
Look, in that particular way, you know, that's their brand.
Most of us are out there just working to pay our mortgage and pay the bills
and raise our kids and look after ageing parents.
We don't have access to that kind of money or products or surgeons or all the things.
Well, they have teams.
They've got a team.
And what's interesting about it, they don't always walk around looking like that either.
Because I've actually, you know, I go up to northern New South Wales where Hemsworth lives
when he's in Australia.
I've seen him in town.
He doesn't look like that normally.
He's, you know, a fit-looking guy.
But he doesn't look like the person you've seen in Thor.
No, none of us do.
It's photoshopped and it's imaged and all sorts of touched up and all sorts of things.
And probably my gut feeling is he must do like 100 push-ups just before they take a shot
and then he could just go down like that.
I know myself like if I'd just been at a gym,
I can look one way as I come out and like no joke, two hours later,
it's like someone's let all the air out of the balloon
and I just go back to being normal, like my normal shape.
And so you can sort of trick the camera.
So you're going to do that.
You're going to sort of bring this to the surface, men's body image.
You're going to bring this to the surface, are you?
Yeah, because it's going to make people feel a whole heap better about who they are
and what they've got.
I have spoken to hundreds of men in really weird and unusual places about body image
and how they feel because even one of your producers sort of said,
oh, my girlfriend loves Embrace and I watched it and I just mentioned to him
that we're making Embrace men.
And there are so many untold stories because it's not really cool for men
to talk about how they feel about their bodies.
You know, it's been predominantly.
Not older men anyway, not my age group.
I have to say there's a lot of trauma.
I mean this is what I discovered 10 years ago when I posted the non-traditional
before and after photographs and my life changed entirely, went from I'm a photographer
with three kids to I've become a public figure somehow strangely talking
about this particular subject.
I suspect we're right in the same field of time that we were for women 10 years ago,
There's a lot to expose, there's a lot to talk about, there's a lot of trauma
and I think storytelling and filmmaking is just such a powerful way
to help people feel seen and heard.
So if I wanted to, I don't know, inspire men of my age, just say men over 50,
it's not quite my age but close enough for the sake of the conversation,
to inspire them to live a better quality life and what I mean by that is,
as you said earlier,
we wake up, as you get older, you wake up with inflammation, aches and pains,
you know, you can't bend down and do your shoes up sometimes depending
on the particular day or the particular time of year.
Sometimes you can't grip something properly to open or close it,
you might be losing your strength in your relation to your grip.
You can't walk upstairs, you can't be, in my case, you know,
sometimes your grandkid feels like he's like 20 kilos, 30 kilos and, you know,
you can only carry for a short period of time.
If I was to go out and say to people,
look, if, I'm asking your advice, is, and it's not about image but it's about functionality,
I think it's important, I would like to say this, I think it's important for at least,
I can't talk about men, for men to maintain their ability to function properly in relation
to those things they want to function in.
So if that includes grandkids and getting out of bed in the morning and perhaps going for a walk
or taking your dog for a walk or unscrewing a lid or those sorts of things,
you need to do a couple of things.
You need to maybe watch what, have enough protein in your diet, whatever format that is,
whether it's pea protein or animal-based protein, exercise a certain way,
do resistance training, do yoga, do stretching, all that sort of stuff.
Does that start to actually create a problem, do you think, for individuals?
Do you think I'm actually out there sort of putting pressure on people
to become a certain way, do you think it would be, or is that a right thing to do?
Because I actually feel compelled because I'm experiencing these difficulties.
You know, I can't box like I used to box for obvious reasons.
I can't get through the sort of things I used to be able to get through.
I do wake up very, sometimes arthritic and inflamed and I'm thinking, I've got to solve that.
Like you wanted to solve how you felt about yourself, I want to solve how I function.
And I'm trying to work on a solution.
But do you think that's the right way to go about your, because that will result in change in your body?
Do you think that that's the right way to go about things, given your experience in this environment?
Because I'd love to know that.
I think you talking about it and as a leader and as someone of influence,
being able to show other men a way to positively age, I think is incredibly important and empowering.
Because I think the narrative around aging,
has been extremely negative.
You know, you become frail, you become weak, you can't do things.
I mean, I've watched my dad, he walks seven K's every day.
He's 78 and he's out there and he even said to me recently, he goes, I think I might run a marathon with you.
And I was like, Darren, don't you know, like, I love that mindset.
But I think, I think it's really important conversation to have, Mark.
And I'm really passionate about it too, because what I want people to know is that you actually have a choice as you get older.
About how you're going to age.
And if you don't invest the time, just like you invest your car with a service in your body,
then you probably won't age in the way that you would like to.
You've got to invest time and energy and effort to moving and nourishing your body in a way that can lead you towards positive aging.
Yeah, because I'm really interested in this conversation because like you say, we've got to say, let's say 28,000 days,
whatever the number was you quoted before.
And let's say that gets you to 83, 84.
I've actually said that.
Is that a new target?
And there's a reason for it.
I want to be, I want to be at an age, I want to get to an age where I can look at my sons who are in their 30s and early 40s.
I want to look at them and be able to interact with them when they are my age right now, like my dad does with me.
I want to have the same relationship with my sons that I have with my current, I currently have my dad who's nearly 90, okay.
And I'm in my late 60s.
So me and dad have a great relationship.
And, and I have then I sometimes I sit there with him having a coffee on a Sunday, Saturday or Sunday, when my sons turn up and my grandson turns up.
And I just think to myself, my dad must think that is so wonderful.
Like mum passed away, but dad must think that's so good.
And I reckon that keeps him alive.
That's what keeps my mum alive, my pop.
And then I think to myself, well, shit, I wouldn't mind having that too.
But in order to get there, what have I got to do?
And I look at my dad.
And he still does push ups, he does light weights, he's and it allows him to mow the lawn, do everything he has to do.
And I think, well, that's a good thing to do.
But then sometimes I want to talk about this, because no one talks about this shit.
And, but I don't want to talk about if people say, oh, well, it's okay if you Boris, you got money or you can afford to do these things.
I don't want to be put in the Chris Hemsworth category.
But at the same time, maybe what I should be saying is, look, I am fortunate.
I can do these things.
And this is what I do to help me.
This is my mindset.
And try to get as many people to come along that journey with me.
Is that a, I mean, is that a new thing?
Because men don't really talk this way.
I mean, what I'm thinking is, I don't think it has anything to do with dollars and cents, though.
The choice that you make about how you age, push ups don't cost anything.
A walk in nature doesn't cost anything.
A swim at Bronte doesn't cost anything.
And it's also a mindset.
So that doesn't cost you anything.
I'm loving live for 100.
I've been putting myself in like the 95 category because I actually, I often talk about, I
honestly feel like it was last night that I was at the club with my friends knocking
And now I'm in this 45-year-old body and I just, I'm like, where did that happen?
And today it's like, it's blue skies, like, oh, it's a great day for washing.
I'm like, the young me is like, who are you?
And then I think another moment in time will pass and I'll be 65 and then I'll be 95.
And then it's done.
Believe me, it happens pretty quick.
You just turn around and you're 20 years older.
I don't know what the fuck, but it just happens so quick.
It was my son's driving.
I'm like, but it was just yesterday.
I just birthed you.
And now I'm like trying to teach him how to drive, which is the most terrifying thing
I've ever done in my life.
But life is fleeting and it's even more so of a reminder that let's not spend our lives
at war with our bodies or getting hung up on things that don't matter.
Like let's, let's be respectful of this really one precious life.
Let's be respectful of this one precious life, especially living in Australia.
You know, you traveled the world to some parts of the world and you think we are the lucky
So next time the jeans don't fit or you want to have a, give yourself a hard time or, you
know, your, your head's, you know, you could, you're going bald or whatever it is that you're
Just try and put it in perspective.
You said something right at the beginning and I've heard you say this in some of your,
your blogs and your discussions and your, your movie and I saw it in the shorts about
Shaming is a pretty strong word.
Is it society shaming us or is it a system that shames us or is it ourselves that shame
Where, where does the shame come from?
Who's the purveyor of shame?
I mean, I think it's all of the above.
I never think it's interesting.
It's come up maybe two or three times, this conversation about you talking about who is
that person that sits, you know, way back.
Well, I keep wondering.
And it's, but it's never, it never is.
It's just, it's a little bit of history.
It's a little bit of history.
It's a little bit of industry.
It's, it's people, it's human beings.
It's, it's, it's all of it.
But I guess this is what's most exciting about the work that I do, especially now with, you
know, young kids is having that sense of agency about how I am going to relate to all the
messages or how I'm going to relate to the narrative that tells me I can't do X, Y, and
I mean, aging, what we've just spoken about, do you know how many times I've heard people
say, oh, I can't do that.
So who made the, but who made up these rules that said that?
Or, um, what's the other one for women?
Um, mutton dress up as lamb.
I'm like, oh, sorry.
But who was the person that said that you can't wear whatever the hell it is that you want
Who is that person?
So, I think in terms of what's going on in society right now, it's the, it's the people
that are doing the work.
Doesn't mean that there isn't that.
It doesn't mean that they're not that.
But, um, I guess what's so exciting about it is that when you're in the industry, and
the people are doing the work like, you're playing, and you're in a music business, they're
all kind of like, um, oh, you're doing this, and you're doing that, um, and you're going
that. But who made up these rules that said that? Or what's the other one for women? Mutton dress up
as lamb. I'm like, oh, sorry, but who was the person that said that you can't wear whatever
the hell it is that you want to wear? Who is that person? So I think it's up to us and it's
our responsibility to push back on that bullshit that doesn't make us feel good and make choices
for ourselves. And my dad always said to me, if you're not hurting anyone else, just do whatever
you want to do, you know, and what a great way and what a freeing way it is to live that way.
Is your dad and mum been a big influence on your mindset? And because you've mentioned him a few
times, he's obviously an inspiration to you. He is. Oh my God, I even got teary. He is. Yeah,
I think just growing up, observing the way that my dad treats other people with just such kindness
and respect. I think he's had the biggest influence on me. Just he,
he always said to me, we all come into the world the same and we all go the same. So treat everyone
equally. And, and he talks to everyone. Like my dad doesn't, and then I find myself talking to
everyone too, about all sorts of things. Like even just with the driver on the way here,
we were deep in the trenches of conversation and it was great. And so when you bring up my dad,
I've heard my dad do that my whole life, just, just chatting to people.
And, you know, having been on the, the, the, the, some days in recent years, you know, when my,
my marriage ended and, you know, it was during the lockdown and things were pretty dark and
desperate, I have to say, just those smiles that people can give you or, you know, an acknowledgement
or how are you, like a genuine, meaningful way, they can make the world of difference in how you
feel. Um, yeah. Your biggest strength is just,
kindness. Yeah. You're a kind person and you probably get that from your dad. Yeah. I don't
know the dude, but he probably sounds like a really kind dude in that he's very generous in
what he does and says and feels. And your kindness is being expressed in a way of helping all those
people feel shit about themselves. That's, that's a, seems to me a big part of you, kindness. Yeah.
I mean, I feel like jumping home gives you a big hug, you know, you're that type person,
you know, and I only met you once before in 2021, but,
that's, that's how you make me feel. Oh, well, that's nice.
Yeah. That's, that's the vibe you give. And I, and I, and I, I can see it's a genuine vibe. Like
it's not a, it's not a bullshit. You're not performing. This is not a performance. And we
all perform by the way. We all have to perform. Yeah.
To be effective. Yeah.
In relation to what we believe in, but what you believe in is kindness.
When I posted those non-traditional before and after photographs and I received over 7,000
emails and messages from people across the world, I was, I just wanted to help them. And I actually
started to try and get back to them. I started emailing everyone and then it was like weeks in,
I was like, this is not going to happen. That's when I like wrote a book and I was like, I'll just
make a film, um, to try and help these people. Because for me, it felt like winning the golden
ticket. That's, that's how it feels to me to, to have this second chance at life with this lens,
that's formidable in every way. And it's fun and it's joyous and it's adventurous. Like I want that
for other people. And there's nothing better. The best KPI ever is just when people come back to me
and say, I'm doing X, Y, and Z with my life because I have a better relationship with my
body. Like if you think about it, Mark, there's, there's no more important relationship than we
have than the one we have with ourselves. And these, these, these are the vehicles that drive
all of it. And that little person inside your head, like what narrative are they going to play?
Are they going to be, you know, your biggest critic or are they going to be your best friend
saying, come on, you've got this? You know, um, I think the world unfortunately
is still a little bit divided on in this whole discussion. Um, there is still a lot of people
who aren't going to cop it, um, and going to still bash themselves up because they don't feel like
they suit a certain narrative. But my gut feeling is that you are making massive inroads. You know,
you are, you really are smashing down doors and smashing down the whole, you know, structures
around how we feel about ourselves. Because obviously it's become a
irrelevant thing in the world today to recognize someone like you, as opposed to say a scientist.
I've heard people be critical of you. Okay. Well, how come she got Australian of the Year? Because
she's not a scientist or a doctor or whatever who saves people's lives. Well, maybe you are saving
people's lives and whether you're saving people's lives or saving people's self-esteem or how people
think about themselves. I don't know if there's that much difference. And, but you're still going
to have to, you're still going to have to push against that. There's a lot of push against it.
Does it wear you out?
Yeah, it's a really interesting one, isn't it? Do I feel exhausted? No, it actually just fuels me
even more to- So it's, fuck them, I'm going to get on with this.
Well, there's nothing like vindictive revenge is there. When I stand on stage next year,
we've reached a million kids. And the fact that we've got the science that backs what we've,
what I've been saying about body image, you know, the, the first film professors from
Victoria University and Flinders University did a global study on the impact of the body image.
And then it was a published paper in a medical journal that actually it helps people have a
better relationship with their body by watching this film. Now, when you throw about all those
statistics about the problem and what it does to our mental health, and then we've got something
creative and enjoyable and entertaining to watch to help, it just all makes sense. I think my
biggest challenge since Oz of the Year is wanting to say something, but not being, not that I'm not
able to, but I've made the choice.
You're in a different position now.
It's weird. It's something I've not, I mean, you know, when I got married, I put one photograph
on Instagram because it was a really small private ceremony. Now it's, it was in like a
dozen media outlets. It's, it's unusual.
Well, they're going to have you on a microscope, so to speak. You're going to have the spotlight
Because, you know, what's going to happen is that certain outlets are going to wait for you to make
a mistake or try to hope, hopefully you'll make a mistake and that'll become their, you know,
their narrative for a while. And it's only because they're trying to get
But like, don't worry about it. I mean, like stuff them. I mean, you have been awarded the
award as Australian of the Year for a bloody good reason. And it's not something they do
flippantly. And it means you've tapped into a, a certain nerve that's existing within society
Yeah. And you know what, it's taken me the first few days when it all kind of happened and it was
all new and I wanted to respond and then I haven't. And now sort of, you know, a few weeks on,
I'm much more at peace with people not liking me or understanding my work. And, um, you know,
I'm very laser focused on what we're going to achieve this year and, and the 1 million kids
that we're going to impact and the outcomes of, of that will be so good for society, for,
for everyone's health and wellbeing. The other thing is really fascinating is I've never met
anyone who's learned to embrace their body and regretted the decision to do so. So it's
almost like a hundred percent money back guarantee going on here. Like it's, it's nothing bad about
embracing your body. And even the science says people who embrace their body and have a higher
appreciation of their body, they're more likely to eat fruit and vegetables. They're more likely
to move their bodies. They're more likely to put on sunscreen. Well, there's just all these
things that there's all these reasons why it's positive.
And your kids, how do they feel about mum being in the spotlight in that regard? How do you deal
It's a little tricky for them because of the work that I do.
Um, it's a question I get asked every time, like, I bet your kids are so proud, but I'm just mum
and I'm pretty, um, private about, um, I don't bring my work home. So I try and protect them
for the most part from whatever's going on, but I suspect, you know, it's not easy for the boys to
have their mum do the work that I do around body image and, you know, in the first film, quite
revealing as well. Um, so it's a bit of a, you know, it's a bit of a journey for them as well,
but I think working on this next documentary, Embrace
Men, I think their voices have been like, what about men? You know, and there's been a big
conversation in our house around feminism and, you know, that I was like, just for all the women.
I'm like, no, no, no, it's for everybody. You know, embracing your body is for all. So I think
I'm so excited to finish off that next film. Well, get it started, get it funded, make it. It's like
making a film is epic. Like it's, it's a pretty big thing, but I'm so, I'm ready to go. I've got
all the creative ideas. Just got to get going.
You're just one big ball of energy.
As I said earlier, you know, kindness is just oozing out all over the joint and, and it really
is. And I feel so privileged that, um, the Australian with you would actually sit here
across from me and, uh, especially when she just got married and, and not only that, you're a busy
mum. I think that what you're doing is quite brilliant. I really do. And you're doing it in
a brilliant way. It's not just a great idea, but it's well executed and I love your passion and
your energy. Thanks very much. Thanks for having me.
Thank you for listening to another episode of Straight Talk with Mark Boris. Audio production
by Jessica Smalley. Production assistants, Jonathan Leondis and Simon McDermott. This
is a mentored podcast.
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