67 Steph Claire Smith And Laura Henshaw Living In Fear Of Judgement Will Lead To A Shit Life

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Hi, I'm Mike Boris, and this is Straight Talk.

You guys have done something fantastic here.

You've obviously lived a much double, almost, a little bit more.

Oh my God.

Totally.

Let's not calculate.

Let's just count the first seven years of my life, because I didn't do anything. I was a little kid

then.

My name is Steph Clesby, and I'm Laura Henshaw.

I never said this workout was going to be easy.

Do you think you have an advantage or a disadvantage in both being very beautiful?

We used to get a lot of shit for. Like, how can you tell us that you, it's about how you feel when

you look the way that you look, and you live in a size eight body that's white, that is very,

very accepted. You've gone from full-time model and influencer. You don't know anything about

running a business. These girls mustn't be doing that. They must just be in the content.

If they judge me, and it's true, I don't give a shit.

Yeah.

You know, the world's full of knockers. Laura and Steph, welcome to Straight Talk.

Thank you for having us.

By the way, I got your book here.

You're both young women. What is your take care audience? Who is the audience that you're

talking to?

Great question. So it's for women in their, predominantly women in their 20s and kind of

early 30s. And it's a guide in looking after yourself and your body. But I think what we've

learned through the years, it's so special, this book, because we wrote a book in, would

have been around 2018?

No, we actually wrote it in 2016.

Obviously, the process of book writing is quite long. And that one was all about, you

know, about getting through your teens. So it was really special to write this one, because

I think when you enter your 20s, there is so much, especially around health, because

we think about health, we think of sleep, exercise and nutrition, which is what we're

taught in school, which is all, they're all so, so, so important. But there's so much

else that comes into, you know, our mental health, things that we go through, feelings

of, you know, shame, fear, anxiety, all these things that we probably don't talk a lot about

until we feel them. And then when we feel them, it's really hard to navigate them.

So we wanted to try and put as much as we could into the book of kind of, yeah, looking

after yourself and your mind and your body. And it's not a rule book. Absolutely not.

It's just, it's just a guide of lessons that we've learned. And then also through our

podcast and people that we've been able to, to meet on our kick journey, their advice

as well.

The obvious question will be from the narcs or the, or the critics. How is it that women

still in their 20s have the...

I'm 30.

Okay, 30.

Thank you.

30.

But, but, but, but just out of your 20s, just shy of the 20s. But how is it that you have

the experience and authority to talk to other women just kicking off in their 20s? But for

the critics, for those people who are going to have a crack, what do you say to them if

they say to you, well, how do you know how to give advice or talk about the topics that

relate to 20 year olds?

Well, because we are, and it's our lived experience now. So I feel like you, you,

listen to the people that you relate to the most. And if we were to write to a 20 year

old, when we got to 40, we're not as relevant to them anymore. And life's a little bit different.

So I would say it's because we've had these lived experiences in the last decade of our

lives. And then all the other people, the experts that are in the book, they're not

necessarily all in their 20s either. But it's all the different people that we've met as

well. It goes outside of our own lived experiences and, and what we've learned along the way.

And I think as two, I'm 29, not 30 yet.

But as two young women, we've also gone through a lot together when it comes to business,

when it comes to life, like we've had a lot of experiences, maybe some arguably more than

others would before they're 30. So I think that there's definitely enough that we had

to say and enough that we had to share. And I think it's special when you get to talk

to people when they're in that moment, even if it is something that you've only just passed,

because it's fresh in your mind and it's, it's all relevant.

And the community, right? I think too, we're so lucky that we have a community of around

50,000 people that we get to speak to and be around all the time. And our audience predominantly

is 20 to 30 year old women. And so through that, we are able to hear so many experiences

from so many people. And that was also what really, really came into this book. What were

they going through? What were they looking for? What, what kind of guide were they after

and that, that all went in.

It's interesting, your generation, as opposed to my generation, and I'm like a couple of

generations beyond you.

Well, before you. We never shared anything with anybody. Like, in fact, you wouldn't

even tell someone you weren't happy, you know, like, because no one listened and no

one really cared. There was, there's an old saying in my generation, your enemies won't

believe you and your friends don't give a damn. So don't say anything. That was a saying

growing up. And whereas you live in a totally different culture.

Yeah.

The notion of sharing, sharing experiences. Is it just women sharing with other women

or is it everyone? Obviously, I'm not in your cohort, so I don't know.

Nearly. Just, just out there.

Just outside.

Today I feel a long way outside. Don't worry about that.

No, it's a great question. I think for us, if we go back to when we started Kik and how

we've been able to kind of build what we have, Kik is a health and wellness app. We really,

really ensure we kind of champion the three areas of health, the best app in Australia.

No, well, you can say that. No, go for it. No, no, seriously, go for it.

And so that's our core, that's our business. That's what we do day to day. And we're all

about making, helping people make sustainable changes in their life. We are not a quick

fix. We're not a fad diet program. We are about, we are about empowering people with

tools that they can sustain for the rest of their lives, which is really, really important,

especially for, for young women. There's so much pressure through social media and the

media in general on focusing on the way that you look instead of the way that you feel.

And so we're, we're really trying to change that narrative with everything that we do

through Kik the app. And then an extension of that is, is the book. And when, when we go back

to when we started with sharing kind of, you know, what we were going through, that's all

we know. That's how Steph and I are. And I think that's, that is how we started to cultivate the

community that we had, because I think when you share one thing and it might seem really scary

at the start, when you share something like, and you know, you're, you're vulnerable to be able to

know that sharing your lived experience then helped, even if it's just one person feel less

alone in their experience, it is such an incredible feeling. And I mean, it's why we do what we do.

And so we learned that very early on, um, in, on our journey with Kik and we've kind of never

looked back and it's the only way, honestly, because people will often ask, oh, how with

your social media, do you, do you plan it? How do you do it? And with our Kik app business page,

absolutely. We have, we have a team, but with our personal pages, no, because we,

you can't plan to be vulnerable. You can't plan what you're going to go through, but

we try and share as much as we can, because we just, we just know that it's social media can

be a really, really hard place. And we want people to feel as I suppose, not alone and a part of

something, um, as, as we can. Are you content providers? I'm in my business. I'm a content

provider. That's my business. I publish you or broadcast you your content for my audience. Um,

and I'm not really sharing any myself other than what you might find it whilst we're talking,

you know?

You on the other hand, at your personal levels are sharing personal experiences. It's very

personal. Where's the difference between the two content creators or influencers, personal stories?

I think when it comes to Kik, there is a magical mixture of the two of those things. So obviously

we create content, there's workouts, meditations, there's so much content to access in the app.

And we are market leading in that area. Like it's beautiful content. We put a lot of love and effort

into it. And it's very worthwhile.

It's very well received. But the other part of the content that is well received is the

authenticity. So within the workouts, you know, we might be really struggling and we'll show that

we're not about being this like high aspirational. You should be able to do a burpee like me. This

is the perf looks perfect. And even with our trainers, they talk through struggling through

things and getting puffed and being excited for the break and all of that stuff that goes through

your mind when you're following a workout. Um, and then even in the meditations, there's a lot

of vulnerability. And we speak to a lot of people who are like, Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't

know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't

And all of our experts really champion kind of, um, being there for your, being there for yourself

and then being there for others and showing that vulnerability and showing that as like a strength.

Because I think when you squash your feelings or you push them to the back, which I'm sure,

and I know because obviously I have, I have people in my life that are from your generation.

I know that, that, that you're in your life, you were kind of told to not cry and not show

those feelings and squish them to the back. I know whenever I've done that,

it's bottled up and it's been made so much worse down the line. And I've got to a point of,

you know, emotional breakdown or I've really let it get to me. And so we've found, and through

working with our community, being there with our community and hearing them support each other and

encourage each other through hard times, that as soon as you nip something in the butt and like

talk to someone about it, it's so much easier to work through and you just call it out. And so we

really do champion that even through the content that we, even the polished content that we share

through Kik's socials or in the app itself, it's still really important that that authenticity is

there. And I think something that the community has actually said to us that they've seen as

different from some of our competitors is that we have soul and that they feel like Kik's a bit of

a warm hug to them, as well as it's teaching them stuff and encouraging them to be, you know,

the healthiest version of themselves. We're also just supporting them through life, which is just

so beautiful to us. Do you think you have an advantage or a disadvantage in,

in both being very beautiful?

Oh, I think, I mean, I think in terms of when we started, when we started Kik before, when we

started with an ebook in 2015, there is definitely absolutely privilege in the fact that we both came

out of the modeling industry. And there is no doubt that Sammy and Steph had a social media

following, which was helped us with our marketing because we didn't have a marketing budget,

but there is no doubt in the world that people wanted our recipes. There would have been some

people because they saw how we looked.

And we thought, I want to eat like they do.

I want to look like they do.

Exactly right. There is, there is no doubt in the world. However, what we've been able to do,

we often think about this and it's really interesting. It's something that I think we

used to get a lot of shit for. Like, how can you tell us that you, it's about how you feel when

you look the way that you look and you live in a size eight body that's white, that is very,

very accepted by, you know, the modeling industry.

In a standard sense.

Yeah, exactly right. But I think with us, we were so lucky that we were able, and I shouldn't use

the word, but we were so lucky that we were able to do it. And we were able to do it. And we were

lucky we use it too much. We did build, we worked really hard to build what we had.

And in being able to build that, we then had a platform where we were able to talk to a lot of

young women. And so we had a choice. We could have just said, okay, no, we live in this standardized

body that, you know, they can't relate to. Or we could say, no, we, because we are so lucky to live

in this body, we want to do good with our platform and what we have. And we want to help everyone,

no matter what they look like, it's not about that, feel good in their own skin. And that,

that's what is so beautiful about.

As Steph was saying, it's people will come in and they might, it's not about losing weight. It's not

about, it is about feeling good and having energy and everything, but they might feel, it doesn't

matter if their body has changed, but they feel comfortable in a sports bra now, but they never

have before. And it's not because of a physical change. It's because of a change within them

that they feel accepting of themselves. And I think the fact that we've been able to do that.

And also now kick has grown to what it is today. It's not about Steph and I anymore. We're obviously

still a really big part of it. We run the business, but

it is about the community and kick is community. So it's not just us anymore. And I think, yeah,

it's absolutely important to acknowledge that that's how we started and with our platform,

but we're, I think I just, I feel really proud of what we've been able to do with it.

Yeah. But I, and I, you know, cause it's, there are a lot of people around who, you know,

the world's full of knockers, unfortunately, particularly in this country. But, and,

you know, I often have people sitting in that, that seat there who

by no fault of their own, they're not the ones who are the ones who are the ones who are the

have been blessed with something that society deems more acceptable than other could be

intellect. It could be anything skills, physical beauty, sporting pro prowess, whatever the case

might be. And it's funny, a lot of those people actually feel guilty for being that way. How do

you, or have you ever felt guilty or felt, um, or the unfairness perhaps? And what did you do?

How'd you deal with that? I mean, you know,

how did you deal with it yourself within yourself?

I was not ever the best at sport, the smartest kid, but what I learned through my schooling was

that if I tried very hard and probably had to do, put in many more hours than other people, I did,

I could do well. And

Effort equals reward.

Exactly right. The harder you work, the more you get out. However, what I have now, as I've

learned more about the world and, and I grew up, we were both really lucky. We grew up in families

that we weren't from.

We both didn't go to private schools, but we, you know, we were all comfortable growing up.

Yeah.

And I think what I have learned and been really challenged with, and even in writing this book,

it was something we were really conscious with is saying things around that saying,

the harder you work, the more luck you will get or the more you will get.

There is so much privilege in that because there are people that work their whole lives. They work

three jobs to try and provide for their family. They, you know, they start businesses or they,

they might work at a restaurant and then they have to go and, um,

work at a hotel or whatever it might be. And they never, ever, ever find that little piece of luck

or get in a position where they're with people in the, in the room. It's been interesting with

the more people I think have, um, the more the business has grown, the more opportunities have

opened for us that never would have been open five years ago. And so it is mentally, I think

it's something that, and especially in writing this book, it's something we were very, very

conscious of because it is so important to acknowledge for some people, they work their

whole lives so hard and they don't get.

The success that other people are able to have. And that's where I think luck comes into it and

also privilege. So it is, it is, it's, it's a really, I think it's hard, it's hard to think

about and work through.

It's funny, you know, you should say that when you're only young and you've recognized something

that took me a long time to recognize. Um, I used to live on the basis when I was a young man,

before I started work, I used to take the view. I work, I will work hard because my parents worked

hard. So I was monkey see, monkey do.

Hmm.

My twenties and thirties, I got to, you know, I got quite a good job in the city when I was

in twenties. And, uh, I saw all these people had these really fancy things, cars, houses,

like I grew up, you know, pretty working class family. And I saw things I'd never seen before.

I realized the harder I work, the more, more money I'm going to make and that I can become

a partner of a firm. So I worked on that basis, effort equal reward. But it wasn't until I started

seeing friends of mine becoming capacitated.

Through strokes or illness and stuff of that bad health, basically from drinking too much,

whatever that I realized that hard work was an honor as opposed to something just for reward.

It was actually an honor bestowed upon us that we can work hard, that privilege. It,

the privilege is that I'm physically can work hard. And as a result of that, you know,

I do quite well, but I, I, it's not because I'm trying to earn money.

It's because,

I have a, I recognize the privilege of being able to work hard. And that's very interesting

that you said that it's quite, for me, really mature. I don't, I'm not trying to be condescending

towards you, but it's quite a mature thing to say at your age. And I think maybe your cohort

are probably much more mature. We're getting back to where I started, much more mature than anyone

was in my era in the twenties. And, and you have, that's why you are able to share and people are

able to accept your sharing too.

I think that probably to a large extent, the content you produce for your app is so successful

because your audience is much more mature than any audience that I've ever seen or heard of or

dealt with in my, my time. Have you ever thought this through and what do you put it down to? Why

do you think audiences between 20 and 30 were even younger, but at least your audience is probably

slightly older than that too now, but why do you think they accept your vulnerabilities?

Yeah, it's a hard one. I think, I mean, if I can,

speak from, from personal experience, I know that the people that I look up to, or I might admire,

I think you can put people on a pedestal for, for only so long, right? And there's something

really beautiful about when you see a vulnerability or a struggle of theirs that you can maybe, may or

may not relate to, but it just makes them appear more real and it may make their success or

um, something that's happened in their life.

Maybe more accessible to you from, from saying that, right? Because I think for so long without

over-communicating these kinds of struggles or the realness that we all go through in life,

people can look at something like social media, which for a lot of accounts is just a highlight

reel, um, and maybe aspire to live like that, but not really understand the negative impacts that

person might've had in their lives. Maybe the sacrifices that they've had with their family,

working so hard, not getting to see them,

um, who knows, they might have a mental illness that they don't speak about. Like there is so much

that isn't shown. And so I feel like without showing that side, you're, you're making big

aspirations and dreams too hard for people to reach. And then that would just in turn make

them feel terrible about never reaching them, if that makes sense. So, um, I think that's what our

generation has kind of recognized. And I think we've recognized that over-communicating isn't

a bad thing. Um, and as much as there,

there's definitely still tall poppy in this Australian society. Um, and definitely still,

it's definitely still prevalent in our generation. There's no doubt about it. I think we are getting

better at seeing the best in people and seeing people for having the best intentions. And, and

even when they make mistakes or, you know, they're honest about something that might've gone wrong.

I think we do appreciate that more than maybe we used to.

We are challenging the way we see success and what a successful,

successful life is because I think for a very long time, and it's still very much the case for,

I think some beliefs, but I think in our generation, particularly, we don't feel like we have to

finish school, go to university, have, get married and then have a child and have a house.

And a mortgage.

Like, and a mortgage. Like that is the, put it in quotation marks.

That's the Australian dream, right?

Yeah. And it's a lot of people's dreams still.

And that's fine. But I think what, in our demo, I think we're really starting to challenge

that if that is not the path that we want to go down, or if that is not the path that feels right

to us right now. Also, if that path takes us 40 years instead of five, that's okay. And challenging

what, because I think it's so interesting. And I wanted to ask you as well with your relationship

with money, because I think for us, I mean, for me growing up, money was something that,

I mean, in my parents' divorce, it was that all I can remember as a kid is arguments about money

and that they, they did the best for us. And it's just money is very, very stressful when you don't,

have a lot of it. And so for me, I had a really, my relationship with money growing up. And this

is something we speak about in the book too, was it was about, it was, you had to preserve it and

you had to have an account just in case something really bad happened. And it was kind of a scarcity,

a scarcity mindset. Right. And so I think now, obviously with the success we've had through

Kik, I have really struggled to redefine my relationship with money because I think,

because it was the, when you don't have it, it feels like it's everything, but when you have it,

there's so much more to life. And obviously it comes from a very privileged position to say that

I'm in a financial position where I'm not in a stress, it's not scarce currently in my life.

Maybe it will be one day, but I don't know. And so I think for me, I've really had to challenge

internally, you know, I've bought things that I always thought like designer items. I've always

thought that I, that would make me really happy. And then you, when I have it, I don't, I almost

feel guilty for having it because it's like, well, that's a lot of money on a,

something that I could do something else with that or other people don't have that or whatever

it might be. And it's been, it's been an interesting, that, that relationship. And we do go

into it in the book because obviously financial health is really important. Interesting, just

navigating it. I drive a Toyota Hilux and I could probably, I used to drive a Aston Martin and I've

get more fun out of driving the Hilux. There's a lot more you can do with a Toyota.

But it's cool. Like I just think it's cool. Like I enjoy it. And,

and it's, it's funny though, like I went through exactly the same thing many, many years ago.

And I also have that, had that guilt thing too, by the way, that was heavy on me. And I've just

felt better and freer not parading around in a fancy car. Although Hilux is pretty good. It's

not a cheap car, but it's still, it's a good car and it's not fancy.

Is Toyota a sponsor? No, I'm joking.

So you talk about that in the book, you cover these sorts of things.

And it also comes down to our personal values too.

It's what are they? You have to, and so I would say we're both still navigating it. I don't think

you can tell who you are at 30. Exactly right. They change all the time. Exactly right. We evolve.

And so I think it's around, and a big theme of the book is finding, working out what those values are

for you and then finding confidence. And I suppose it's safety in knowing that this is what I care

about. So when all these other things happen, it might be around money or it might just be around

personal things like judgment from others, for example. Something for me I've had to work through

is that my KPI,

my role as CEO of Kik and also my role in life is not to be liked. And that is really hard.

Not to be liked. Not to be liked.

You don't want to be liked. Well, I don't want to be hated, but it's not for me as someone who's

a people pleaser and really cares about what every single person thinks. I've had to learn that you

cannot please every single person, especially in running a business, but then also in your life

and what we do on social media, not everyone's going to like us. And so if I have my core value

in my life as being liked by everyone, I'm never,

ever, ever going to feel fulfilled. So for me, it's been trying to work through that and change

that. And that's kind of what we also work through as a theme through the book.

Do you mind if I ask you, like, what was it that made you realize that there was a value in you

that you wanted to be liked by everybody? And when did you work it was a problem?

Oh, well, I think, I mean, through social media, it's something that through, and it's something

that Steph helps me navigate so much with trolls. You know, someone in, I don't know, rural South

Australia.

Who's 75, hated my post.

And you would always spend so much time.

This is real.

And I'd be like, oh, Steph, Betty, who's 75 from rural South Australia, she thinks that I'm stupid

and I shouldn't be doing this. And Steph would say, okay, well, we don't know who this is. She's

never met you. It's okay to work through this. And that's kind of a funny example, but it was,

it was things like that. And I think for me, it was working through, there were times, like,

for example, when we started our podcast, a lot of people said to us, you're just trying,

remember this?

One review that we read, that I read, Steph doesn't read them, she's smart. I just go,

go, go right in. But I, I read it and it said something like, you're really good at what you

do with kick. Why don't you just stay in your lane? You're not, you don't really know what

you're doing with podcasts. So just, you know, don't do it. And I remember thinking, reflecting

on that back now, if we took that, or you can play this to anything in your life. If you have

one thing that you start out, we're never going to be perfect when we start, right? But we stop

that one person's judgment.

Yeah.

Who we're not living our life for that person from living our life the way that we want to

and pushing ourselves out of our comfort zone. Like that is such a sad life to live for other

people. And also just doing exactly what we do because we put people in boxes and when people

that we know in our lives, and I, we have to always, I do this sometimes I have to really

go in deep inside and say, am I judging this because they're not in the box that I'd put them

in? Or is it for other reasons? I feel like as humans, we put people in boxes and we think, okay,

this is what,

they do. This is how successful they will be. And when people push outside that,

we feel uncomfortable and it really challenges us mentally. And then that's when judgment comes.

So I think for me, it's been having to continually remind myself that I do not need to fit in a box

that other people want me to fit into. It is my life. It is my decision, how big the box is or

how small it is. Or if you make a mistake, it's your problem. That's exactly right. And we're

the ones it's like when we started kick this person that doesn't think that we can do it.

They're not going to be the one that's up at one.

One a.m. in the morning, trying to work through, you know, whatever we're working through. It's us.

And if we're, as long as you're, which comes back to values, if you're living your life truly for

yourself, then you'll be able to work through those things. But it is, it's really hard. And I

think one thing for me that really helped was Mark Manson's book. Yep. The orange one.

Say it. Go on, just say it. I love watching her swear.

The subtle art of not getting, is it shit or fuck? I can't remember.

It was on the show about a month ago.

No, I've listened. That was cool you had him on.

Yeah, yeah.

It was truly, I was like, we're going on the same podcast as the book, but that book helped me

because he very, very, he's not self-help in a way that it's like cuddled, cuddly and flowers.

It's like, you cannot, if you're going to live your life with fear of others' judgment,

you're going to live a shit life.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

That's true.

Yeah.

So that was in 2016, I think that book came out. So you, were you reading it like when you were

much younger?

I read it in 20, I read it a lot of times, but the first time, it was one of those books,

you know, the books that are always at the airport and you're like, it's always in bestsellers.

They used to sit up there because they used to say, it's subtle art, I'm not giving a fuck.

And then they put the, yeah.

And you thought, why should I better buy that book?

But I had it, I bought it because I was like, well, everyone else has bought it, so I better

buy it. And then it just sat in my, my room for ages. And then I was actually back at the airport

and I re-bought it because I was like, no, I'm going to read this. So it was in 2020 and I felt

like I really needed it. And it was really, I, when, you know, when you come into contact with

a piece of content just at the moment that you need it, it was, it was like that for me.

Like the universe told you to do it.

Yes, exactly.

And what about you, Steph? You seem to be less concerned.

Less concerned about, just by the look of things, but just the sense I'm getting from

you sitting there, less concerned about what people think.

Yeah. I don't know what it is, why I'm that way inclined. And it's not that I don't care

about what people think. There's definitely times when I, when I will take a hit and for some

reason, some horrible comment or judgment will affect me. Like there's no doubt about it. I'm

only human. But I think I have just worked through so much in my life and in previous

years, I've been doing things for myself and knowing that I'm doing what I want to be doing

and what fulfills me and doing it for myself, as Laura said, and not really doing it for anyone

else. I mean, other than Laura's, she's my business partner. And I think because I'm doing

that and I'm, I'm, I'm not doing it for anyone else. Other people's judgment doesn't really

affect me. And I think for too long, I might've been that person that judged others and, and

thought negatively of something that they might've done and put people on pedigree.

And it was only when I kind of realized that I had been doing that to myself and that there were

people that were doing that to me that I started to feel really guilty for that. And I think over

the last decade of my life, it's taken a lot of work, but I am at a stage in my life where I

genuinely, I know I, not everyone likes me and that's fine with me. There's a lot of people that

I love in my life, or there's a lot of people that I look up to that I know don't have fans,

that people don't really necessarily.

Like or agree with. And so I think it just comes down to everyone's values are really different.

What we like is really different. What we're good at is really different. Um, and I think going back

to your question earlier about, you know, kind of pretty privilege and how it's worked for us and

how it might've been a disadvantage at times. I think something that I've had to work through

over the last decade, especially in running a business is being put in that box of, you know,

you've gone from, yeah, you've gone from full-time model and influencer. Um, you don't,

know anything about running a business. These girls mustn't be doing that. They must just be

in the content. They're the marketing girls, you know, and full of shit. Exactly. And for a while

it bothered me, but I kind of quickly was like, well, it's going really well. So it's going really

well for us. We're making money and we're helping a lot of people. And so who cares what they think

they can think that I'm just in the content. I'm fine with that. Um, and it, but it has been a

struggle at the same time, because I think one of my biggest insecurities,

has been, you know, thinking that I'm dumb or thinking that I'm not an, I'm not an academic

person. I'm not naturally an academic person. I'm definitely more creative. Um, even through

school, I was much more drawn to the kind of creative subjects and, um, health and art and

PE and food tech, all that sort of stuff, which is funny because it's very much aligned to what

I do now. So it's great. Um, however, because throughout high school, I was kind of put in

this box of, um, you know, just this pretty girl who didn't really need to, you know,

to be smart. Um, and because my aspirations were around modeling, it was like, no one expected me

to ever do anything more than just look a certain way, which in turn was really shocking through my

early twenties, because then it meant that my whole identity was the way I looked. And so

that's where I fell into an incredibly unhealthy pattern with, you know, my relationship with

exercise and food was at a really, really bad state because all I gave a shit about was the

especially being full-time in the modeling industry. So it's kind of had its disadvantages

along the way, but through it, um, obviously using it to our advantage and making the most

of the platforms that we have. Um, it's definitely something that we've, that I've still had to work

through. And so I think that's the only time people's judgment can come in into, I suppose,

hit an insecurity of mine is when they might judge my intelligence, um, that sometimes can

still affect me. But other than that, I couldn't care less. If someone said something about the

way I looked or, you know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Um, even in what we do at kick, I believe wholeheartedly in what we do at kick and I

know we're doing the right thing. So I couldn't really give two shits if someone said something

negative about that. But I actually, because like, it's funny, is it a work in progress? Because

like I'm 67 this year, right? So, uh, you know, you would think someone like me has got over it,

but last week I got a letter from a share, one of my shareholders in one of the companies I'm

involved with. I've got lots of different businesses, but one of them, and, um, this

individual, uh, I've got a letter from one of my shareholders in one of the companies I'm involved

with, uh, identified itself as, uh, being someone of substance and, uh, being someone who

I need to listen to because of the number of shares that this particular individual

allegedly holds. And, uh, it was in a letter, it was an email. And then, uh, that email was

shared with me. It wasn't sent to me, it was sent to someone else in my business that then

shared it with me, but made all sorts of, well, yeah, what I consider judgments on me.

Hmm.

And I flew into a rage.

Mm-hmm.

It was a, how dare you say that about me? That's just because for me.

Defense.

The unfairness.

Yeah.

Code is really important.

Yeah.

To me. I tend, try not to be unfair towards anybody. I try not to be. It doesn't mean I'm

not, but I try not to be. But when someone's unfair to me, unfairly judge me. If they judge

me and it's true, I don't give a shit.

Yeah.

But if they, um.

Fairly judge me about something that I'm doing, particularly something that I'm passionate

about. And, you know, my passion in this particular business is about helping people borrow money

so they can buy their big dream, their home. You know, that, that's, that's, and the main

reason I do that is because I lived through a period in my life where I could never afford

a home.

Yeah.

And I never thought I would ever be able to afford a home. So for me to be able to go

and help people have this great thing that I knew I never had, that's really important

to me.

Yeah.

And I work really hard in that business. But when I saw this, I literally went to a

rage, you know, and, uh, like if murder was not a crime, I probably would have done it.

You know, like, uh.

Do they listen to your podcast?

Pardon?

Do they listen to your podcast?

Yeah. I think this individual does.

Oh, okay.

Um, and probably, probably listen to this. But then I started thinking about it and I

thought to myself, well, maybe the individual doesn't really know what I do day to day.

Yeah.

And, uh, maybe from this individual's point of view.

Yeah.

Their point of view is correct. And therefore the judgment is correct. Ill founded, but

nonetheless correct. And I shouldn't be so upset about it. My point being to you is these

things never change. You might think you understand how to get on top of it, but you're going

to be, in my case, Lisa, forever working on this stuff.

Totally. Oh, a hundred percent.

It's always going to happen. And I hopefully you sort of let people know who read your

book.

Yeah.

You know, your audience, the people who look up to you.

Yeah.

And people who want to buy the book and understand your experiences. Let them understand that

because it's okay.

Oh, totally.

To get angry and get upset. You know, I get angry. I don't get sad. I don't cry, but

I get angry. Like, you know, and, uh, but at the same time, it's not okay to stay that

way.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you've got to just work through it a little bit.

Yeah.

Just settle with it. Don't do anything straight away and just think it through. And now I'm,

you know, it's only a few days old, that event, and I'm okay with it as of yesterday.

And, uh, and I also have a solution and it's about meeting the individual and talking that

individual through. If they don't get it at the end of it, I don't give a fuck.

I don't know.

But I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because they may, they don't know what I do. They wouldn't have a clue how hard I work

in the business, what I feel about the business. You know, they don't know. They just sort

of see bits and pieces, especially on social media. So do you feel as though, or do you

tell people here?

Because I don't want people to think, and I guess you don't want people to think that

I've got all the solutions.

We have all the answers.

Yeah. No, no, no.

I mean, and do you let, let people know that? Because everyone's going to, got to continually

search for the answers.

That's the book. That's the book, isn't it?

It's not a rule book. We wouldn't have, and I think anyone that knows us and even in how

we lead in the business.

Real, not real, rule you mean, rule.

It's not a rule book.

It's not a book of rules.

It's not a rule book. And because we don't have all the answers and that is a theme of

this book. And I think too, in, in everything that we do, we always say to our team, the

number one thing I always tell them is I don't have all the answers. I don't know. I don't

know everything. I don't know much. And I think that's kind of awesome because we've

got so much time to, to learn and grow. But I think in this book, especially for example,

it's, it's, you know, if you're having a really anxious and having really hard time with your

mental health, there are sometimes things you can do to make you feel better, but sometimes

they don't work and you just want to, you don't want to do a meditation. You want to

throw your phone in the bin and that's okay. And that's, that's what we talk through in

this book. And it's something too, and we, it's a big theme. It is, it's a journey and

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Confidence is a big theme in the book as well. But we speak about it's not a confidence of this is

what you need to do and you'll be confident. It's here's some things that helped us, but it doesn't

help us every day. And sometimes we have really hard, sometimes it's hard. And as you were talking,

it's funny. And I wonder if you remember this moment. I remember, it would have been, it was

a few years ago now. And it was, we were in a room and we did a presentation to a room of people

that were...

You remember?

Yeah.

That were not our normal demo. It was very corporate. And...

A moneyed room.

We were extremely...

A moneyed room.

Sure.

Yeah.

Sure. I can't say anymore because the person won't know. But anyway, it was very corporate.

And we were so nervous and we spoke and we, you know, when you finish a talk and you think,

I did a really good job.

Nailed it.

And that, that was because we went in with so much chance. And then we, we, we did a great job

and we got everyone in, some people that we worked with, we got people that we worked with,

were in the room. And there were people that were kind of more aligned with kind of what they do

coming up to them because they would go to them, not us, but that's fine. And say, oh, that was

great. Like, it's so fantastic that you're doing what you're doing together. And I remember hearing

the person say, oh yes, they're just the marketing girls.

And...

From the audience. Or so to say, this is from the room.

There was someone that we worked with.

Someone who worked with you.

Someone who was an audience member.

Someone who was an audience member that was, wow, this, they, they, they're doing a really

great job. And then someone that we work with said, oh, they're, they're just the marketing

girls. And I remember in that moment, it was something that I was so angry and I wanted

to go over and say, absolutely, here's, here's all the reasons that we're not, here's what

we do. Here's how we've, you know, and it was one of those things. And this happens

every single week. I know I probably have a moment like this every single week. For

two days, I am just, it's so frustrating, but it's, it's kind of, I don't know, for

me, I've just, I try to tell myself in the moment it's hard, but everyone can make their

own narrative.

And you can't change what other people's narratives are.

But it is, it is impossible. I mean, to this point, and I mean, if you've, you've obviously

lived a much, double, almost, a little bit more.

Oh my God.

Totally.

Let's not calculate.

No, unless I count the first seven years of my life, because I didn't do anything.

I was a little kid then.

But to, to, to hear from you that, you know, you still have time. And I think it's really

special to hear that because it shows that we are always growing and there is no,

solution, you know, to being happy all the time, to being confident all the time, to

feeling, you know, getting a letter like that, where you haven't been understood properly

and feeling like, Oh, don't worry. I'm not going to worry about it. I just, I don't care

what other people think. Cause you can't never care, but it's just trying to work through

how do you not let that letter define, you know, the next five years of your life.

And destroy you.

Exactly right.

So if you're, because my experience with a lot of successful people is that they tend

to, they can at some stage, they probably all of them do at some stage, they do a bit

of self-sabotage. Some successful people who might be in the arts industry, there might

be performers, for example, they get on the drink or the drugs or something like that.

And they just destroy themselves. It's self-sabotage. It's nearly like sometimes, I don't know

whether it's created by guilt, but sometimes we can, if we are successful, can look for

a way to blow the money. Like I know guys made the first 50 million and they don't have

any of it left.

Totally.

Like that happens. It does happen.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

How many times you've heard the stories about famous boxers like Mike Tyson that hundreds

of millions and they've got nothing. You know, they end up bringing it back. Sometimes

they can get back. But do you, have you experienced the self-sabotage environments? And then,

I mean, you mentioned before, Steph, that you had self-image, something or other, like

you're worried about, you become obsessed about how you looked.

Yeah.

Do you feel as though you at any stage self-sabotage yourself in that regard?

I mean, yeah, so that, that point in my life was when I was, uh, like young 20s, I think

I was 20 years old when it was at its worst. And I just kind of started modeling, moved

over to New York, um, and was really keen to kind of prove myself as a model. I think

when you're an Australian model and you get to go overseas, it's like, you've got to come

back with this like badge of honor of working with international clients. Um, and that wasn't

happening for me. And I was only getting, um, pressured from my agency to lose my job.

Um, mind you, I was like 10 kilos lighter than I am today or even more. Um, and that

wasn't small enough. So it was a really unhealthy pattern. And for, it took years to, to shake

a lot of those habits and those thoughts. Um, there's no doubt about it. And I think

a lot of my journey out of that period was thanks to the community that we've, we've

been able to create through Kik. I mean, a lot of the times when I was opening up to

them about feeling really vulnerable or, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like,

that some sort of habit had crept back into my mind, there was so many of them who could

relate and encourage me through it. Um, that was really, really beautiful. And so I think

since then, it's only really been, um, maybe more in a career sense when it comes to running

the business that those, that those kind of insecurities and things have come up. Um,

as I kind of touched on earlier, um, appearance is not my, it's not my whole being.

That doesn't define you.

No, it doesn't.

Anymore.

Anymore. Um, and I know a lot of people would argue that. And I think that that's like,

I think I'm at that point now where I don't really care what they think. And if that's

how they define me, fine. But I mean, I'm just going to get older. I've had a kid now and like,

I don't know, maybe I'll have another one. I don't know. But, um, there's things that

change your appearance. You can't keep it the way that it looks. And so if people are going

to define me by that, I'm going to make some people pretty unhappy over the next decade,

I would say.

You probably don't care. You do care, but you don't care sort of thing.

Yeah.

It doesn't affect you.

No, not anymore. But for a long, long time it has. And it's, and it's not to say that

it doesn't affect me any day. There could be a day that I'm feeling really crappy about

work because I've had a really unproductive week and I've let things get to me. And so I'm just,

I'm, I'm doubting myself, um, in running the business. And then I'll see something that

kind of feeds into that insecurity, maybe a judgment from someone or, um, you know,

someone that might be acquaint, acquaintance in my life who I haven't seen in years will

ask me.

When you try a bikini on the used to wear and it doesn't fit anymore.

Yeah, something. Or they'll ask me if I've like, I don't know how my modeling's going

and won't even bring up kick. And to me, that's the biggest message that they like, obviously

to have no, they just have not acknowledged what we do. Um, and then it'll affect me.

And then I'll be like, no, actually, we don't really have time for that anymore. Um, this

is what we do. And I feel like I need to prove myself. So it's, it's not to say that every,

every day is fine. It's just definitely more often than not. I have recognized in myself

that I am really proud of where we're at and what we're doing. And that is my main focus.

And it doesn't really matter what other people think. And I think having a business partner

is really helpful in that sense, especially when they're your best friend, because I also

see Laura go through that. And as Laura said, like she does get affected by it. Um, those

kinds of things more than me. Um, and I think because I see that and I recognize that, I'm

going to recognize that in her and it kills me because she is so intelligent. She's one

of the most like intelligent people I know. Um, and she's really killing it and there's

no way our business would be where it is without her in our CEO role. So it's hard for me to

see her judge herself in that way from, from some stranger's comment or someone judging

her in the wrong light. So I think I, I get these reminders every week, um, from someone

that I love that it doesn't matter what someone else thinks, because I know that she's doing

well. So I just try to flip it whenever I feel like that.

That's sort of, uh, you, when you're speaking and you remind me, I, I, I just thought about

myself and my, my brother who's been with me since he got out of law school at 24, 23,

ever, ever since that, that time, he's, he's the dude. So when I had, I got upset with

this particular individual, I went straight to my brother, I vented and he said, just

chill out. Right. Like it's okay. Although he's much more aggressive than me normally,

but you know, but you're right. You've got to, it's good to have a partner. Yeah. In

business. It's great to have a partner in business. At a vulnerable moment or a, I don't

want to say week a moment, but let's say a vulnerable moment on any day of any week of

any year, running a business, having in your case now a kid, but you know, having husbands

and partners and every other thing that goes on in the world. Um, if you're not fed properly,

if you're not eating clean, if you're having late nights, not sleeping properly, uh, not

exercising properly, how, how important is that to being able to avoid that?

To avoid these moments of, I don't want to use the word weakness because it's not cool,

but I'm going to use that moment. Hugely important. Hugely important. Um. And that's what this

book's about I get. Yeah. There's definitely elements of that as Laura said, like you can't

deny that sleep and working on your physical health and nutrition is definitely important

when you're talking about health or healthy living, healthy life. Um, obviously we go

into all the other stuff as well in the book, but nutrition, um, I mean, for me, because,

for me, because I've been down a route where I looked at food in such a different way in

such a restrictive way. Um, the relationship I have with it now is very much based off

the way I feel. So I know that I feel energized and I feel a lot clearer in my mind if the

majority of the food that enters my body every day is whole foods. Um, but I also know that

if I restrict myself from the foods I love, like Cadbury chocolate, I'm very, I like Cadbury.

Um, you know, I'm also, that also affects my mood and the person that I am. And I think it's

because of the years that I restricted myself from stuff like that. Um, I now know how to

appreciate it and I can have it in my everyday and still have like that balanced approach and

just not, I just don't look at food like that anymore. And I think I'm so proud to be able to

say that because for so long I wasn't. And I know that I'm not going to be able to say that

there are so many people who wouldn't be able to relate to that. So I, I'm really fortunate,

I think, to be in a place now where I don't look at food as good and bad. I just know which foods

make me feel good, which foods can get me through the day, have a clear mind at work, get through a

workout. And then even when it comes to working out, um, you know, I used to have this misconception

that there was, um, that you'd have to kind of like kill yourself or really challenge yourself

and, um, push yourself and that the exercise couldn't be something that you enjoyed. Like I

dreaded it every day, but I dreaded it every day. And I think that's a really good thing.

Because it was used as punishment back in the day. Whereas now I look forward to it because

it's time alone. It's time I'm giving back to myself and I will do the exercise or the movement

that suits my mood or my energy at any given day. That could be a 10 minute yoga flow. It could be

walk around the block, or it could be 30 minutes on the treadmill. Like it differs day to day

because I've learned how to tune into what my body is needing. And I go, going back to your

question. Absolutely.

The weeks where, you know, we might be overwhelmed with work and we don't necessarily have as much

time to fuel our bodies and we're getting, you know, more Uber Eats than usual and eating out

and, um, all that sort of stuff. Cause work's really busy. Um, and maybe not having as much

time for ourselves and for exercise for sure. My stress levels are at an all time high and I can

get to breaking point quite easily. Um, but I think for us, we've both recognized the kind of

triggers or we've both recognized those points where we know we're about to tip over the edge.

Um, and to be able to have those, yeah, I was just about to say to be able to have those

conversations with each other. It's like, I need a minute. I mean, just the other week I had to

text Laura, it was 9am and I was about to walk into the office and I said, I don't know why,

but I feel like I'm going to cry if I walk into the office. Like I'm just feeling really emotional.

I'm going to go walk and do a meditation. I'll be in the office at 10. She said, that's fine.

First meetings at 10 anyway. Um, how old's your baby again? My baby? He's almost two.

Okay.

So he could have been sick. Two year olds tend to wake up in the middle of the night too.

Yeah. I mean, there's all, there's always that. And I mean, like I still,

I still struggle with mom guilt. Um, I absolutely love being a mom. It's fulfilled me like,

honestly, like nothing else. And, um, I think the biggest struggle that I have is balancing

that relationship with what we do at Kik because that is also my first baby and I still love it

so much. And I still, there's so much we want to do and, um, it still fulfills me so much

helping people every day. So it's really hard to play that tug of war.

Where I need to be, um, and at any given day. And so that does play on me emotionally, but,

um, I think on that particular day, it was definitely just one of those low self-esteem

days when it came to work and there'd been things going on at work and I did have a productive week

and I just let it all get to me. But I think having a business partner that you can be open

and honest with and be able to talk to about those kinds of things is another thing that can get you

through. So yeah, eating well and exercising, making time for that makes me tick, but also

being able to have those like open communications with my partner does too.

And I think it's fair to say it's okay to have shit days and it's okay to feel really tired.

I mean, like, I'll be honest with you, before I walked in here today, Jess, our producer sitting

over there in the corner said, how are you today? And, uh, I've set off a really tight,

I was up at three o'clock this morning. I don't know why I woke up so early.

Oh, you were just so excited.

Excited to see you guys.

So excited to see us. Totally understandable.

And, uh, no, I actually went to bed pretty early and, uh,

I went to sleep at 9.30 and I'd had like six and a half hours or six and a half hours of sleep

and I just woke up. And I thought, so I went up, got up, went to the gym where there's a 24 hour

gym I can go to. And, but of course I've been up since so early. I started, I got tired. Like,

it's like three o'clock in the afternoon for me now. But, but it's, I, Jess always asks me when

I come in how I feel. I don't know why, maybe because she's trying to gauge the room.

A nice thing to do.

And that's not something I'm used to, by the way.

No one does it in any other of my businesses. Um, but Jess is of your generation. So,

your generation is probably a more caring generation or maybe a more open generation.

I would dare ask me that in my other businesses. Um, they just wouldn't ask me because it's like

a personal question, but it's nothing wrong with admitting to yourself and to others perhaps,

but at least to yourself that you don't feel very good today and that you are a bit flat.

Yeah.

What's actually brilliant in your case is that Laura will probably already see that.

Yes, she does.

She knows when it's coming.

Yeah.

And she can backfill.

Yeah.

And I often say this to people, you know, when I got four sons, okay. And, uh, when

they, from different mothers, not all different mothers, but I had three wives and, um, and

I, I worked like a million hours a week and I never thought it was important to, um, you

know, like, uh, necessarily be there with my sons all the time. Okay. So, you know,

I tried to get the first sport on weekends, training if I could possibly get there. But

you know, like nine to five, the nanny looked after them. And, uh, and I always took the

view that I'll do my work. What do I got to do? Cause that's, I actually love my work

as much as I love my sons. And it's okay to say that.

Yeah, it is. It is.

I love my work as much as I love my sons.

Yeah.

Differently, but as much. Would I put one before the other? Well, that's, I don't have

to work that out because the way I look at it is I'll do what I have to do at the time

and I'll backfill.

Mm.

So I've neglected my sons. So I'm going to go back to my sons. I'm going to go back to

go and spend some more time with them. Even now they're all grown men, but I still feel

as though I've got to ring them up and check on how you're going or what are you doing?

Let's have breakfast or I'm backfilling all the time. And I don't think there's anything

wrong with backfilling.

No. As long as you're doing it.

As long as you're doing it. And as long as you recognize that's what you're doing or

not doing. It's about recognizing what you're doing and not doing. And I'm, I'm, I'm so

glad to hear you say that at such a young age, cause it took me a long time to work

that shit out. And I had a lot of dad guilt, you know, like, uh, especially as a dad, I

was a single father, like you're not doing enough with your kids. And then soon as something

goes wrong, you start to blame yourself. Oh shit. That's because the reason he got into

trouble is because I didn't spend enough time with him along those sorts of lines. And we

tend to, I mean, I, I asked you that question, both of you about self-sabotage cause I was

someone who would do that to myself many years ago. And I mean, sabotage myself in that I

give myself an uppercut basically because, because I feel as though you didn't let someone

down.

Mm-hmm.

I probably should have read your book if it was out in those days, but there was never

books like this then.

Mm-hmm.

Nobody said this sort of stuff.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, maybe Mark Manson did, but it was, you know, probably still too late for me to

read. Do you, I mean, you don't have a kid, but do you have the same feelings that Steph

has? I mean, is she sort of psychically, uh, psychologically, whatever the word is, she's,

she's psychic in relation to how you're feeling and his food and health.

Mm-hmm.

Really, physical health, really important to you to keep you balanced.

Yeah. I mean, we're, it's funny, I think we've merged a little bit, but I'm extremely regimented

and that's how-

You become her and she's become you. Is that what you mean?

Well, we just, we kind of met halfway.

I don't flow. Like I'm just, I know, Steph, you almost, you some, you don't go with the

flow as much as you used to.

I can't anymore as a mum and like what we do with business, I can't anymore. But like

definitely when we met, I was a go with the flow, very laid back.

And I'm like, I'll calculate the flow and then see if I can go with it. Otherwise I

won't go.

But that's why we've worked well together.

I think it works. But I think for me, we kind of bring that back to health and fitness.

Running for me is my meditation-

As in running on a treadmill or something?

Or outside.

This morning I ran, actually I did run this morning. Sydney city's very hard to run around.

There's a lot of traffic lights.

Especially when it's raining.

I feel like I spent half the time at traffic lights. But anyway, I still did it. Anyway,

so running for me is my form of meditation. It's interesting when I had a horrible relationship

with food and exercise and I was excessively exercising, running, I ran-

And you did the same thing.

Yeah, but we had different-

Very different. I mean, different, but for the same reason. The driver was the way we

looked and wanting to lose weight.

It's also why we started Kick. It was one of the main reasons. We didn't want other

people to go through it. And so for me, running used to be something that was a punishment,

but now I've been able to completely change it. And now it's my, the way I can feel in

control of my day, pending to, through the book as well, this book is not a book that

says you need to do this many workouts a week and this many eating, whatever, and you're

going to feel good. Because it really depends on how you're feeling each day. And I think,

it depends on how you're feeling each week. Just do what you can with what you have, right?

So some weeks I don't feel up to it, but on the days that I have a really busy day or

something I really want to, I'm really nervous about, or like this podcast is really amazing

that we're on it. Like, thank you so much for having us.

Thank you.

I wanted to run this morning because I wanted to have a really clear mind. And so it's my

thing that I do that makes me feel in control of my day and that routine that, and sometimes

with the way we work, we don't always have time, but when I can fit that in, it kind

of resets my, I don't know, my insides and I don't feel as stressed and I can manage

things a lot better.

You have the clearest mind. I mean, she often finishes a run or she'll try and message me

during the run and then falls over. She's a very clumsy person. It's hilarious. And

she'll send me notes, like as in that we need to run through today, or this is my thoughts

on what happened last week. It just all comes clear to her during a run. So I can definitely

see how you do it for your mental health as much as you do for your physical health.

I think this is a really, and I'm not here trying to,

Yeah.

you know, like suck up to you guys, okay. But I think this is,

You're welcome to.

No, but I'm not here to do that.

No.

But I am in some respects because I think this book, and now you've taken me through

it, is a really important piece for yourselves.

Oh yeah, we'll be revisiting it.

To make a record of for yourselves.

Yeah.

And, but it's also important for those people that are your audience or who buy the book

anyway, at least, to read. I think that this will be, this is like an inflection point

in your, your,

in your business lives, all your lives. That's, I think that's a big deal to actually just

in a writing too, by the way, that's a big deal writing in the first place, but, and

then getting it published and then doing all the book signings and turning up to all the

various places to, you know, to, to share. And I've put books out and I just let them

say, why didn't I ever go to a book signing? I never actually, they asked me to a few times

but I never went. I should have gone, I should have done that. That's an experience I should

have shared with people. But you guys have done something fantastic here. I just quickly

want to ask you one thing.

I mean, I understand that you're trying to go to the UK. Is that right? And you're looking

at raising money. Is that where you're at? So what does that process look like for you

guys? Like keep it clean, like for your, your app and your, or your business, probably more

importantly, how does the raising of money right now with the world's not that liquid

at the moment? Well, liquidity around the world has dried up a little bit because of,

you know, inflation, high interest rates, blah, blah, blah. How's it looking?

Of course.

The money raising part.

I think it's interesting. I mean, the world, we were talking about this last night in terms

of interest rates and working from home and just the two years, 2020 and 2021.

The change in structure.

It was such a big change. And I think especially in terms of raising money. And so being a

tech company, tech companies were getting 50 times valuation, but I think from a, and

that's amazing that people can go out and do that. Fantastic. All power to them. But

I think obviously investors are wanting three to five times return. How to return? How to

return 200 times is pretty, pretty hard. And so I think for us with Kik, we have been

able to, we've, we wanted to make sure that before, cause a lot of people, I think say

it's you, it's like the journey of buying a house or, you know, living a successful

life with business. You start your business, then you go and raise money and it's like

a tick, but it's for us, we never wanted to do it, obviously for the sake of raising money,

because we haven't had to, we've been bootstrapped to this point. We wanted to build, and we're

also in an extremely competitive industry in the fitness and health and app space.

And we wanted to build a sustainable business that we has, we're profitable. We've got double

digit EBITDA. We have had that from inception and we wanted to make sure we could sustain

that and then also build the foundations to be able to scale to what we want to do now,

because without foundations, you can't build a house on sand, right? You have to have those

foundations. So we've been investing in the foundations, in the team, ensuring that everything

is structured correctly to now be able to take this step and help us. Now we really know what,

where we're going and what we're doing. And we tested it really in Australia.

We know what we do. We do have users in over 120 countries, but the predominantly they're here in

Australia. And so we're now ready to have those conversations. And I think being a business that

is a cashflow positive, and we do have those foundations set up in this market,

in the conversations that we've been having, I mean, after this, we're going to have some more

now. We so far have, it's been really, really well received, uh, because we have set up all

of those foundations. And I think it's, we're not expecting a, you know,

50 times valuation. Like we maybe in 2020, you could have got, but that's also okay too,

because I think, especially when we are exploring these investment opportunities,

it's, it's probably not going to be the only time that, that we explore investment opportunities.

And so we want to make sure that I think there's also in some ways, and I wonder what your thoughts

are on this, obviously, because you've got so much experience in being overvalued as a company in

your first round. That's a problem because then when you go for your second round, how are you

going to show that you've added that?

And then the shareholder that you brought on is going to be extremely diluted. And so

with all those things, we've always done it in a way that we, and also just, I think the way that

Steph and I, our money values and the way that we are, we definitely take risks. Obviously it's

extremely important, except we've never, we're never going to be the startup that hires a hundred

people each week. It's just, it's just not the way that we do things. And so I think that too,

is probably the way that we run the business is helping us in, in this environment.

I think actually when, when, when,

the world is choking on liquidity, which it was last year and the year before, during COVID,

people who looked at being quite clever, going and getting 50 times, you know, a multiple of 50

in terms of raising money, and when raised 10 or 20, $30 million, round one, knowing that there's

going to be round two and three, because there always is a round two and three. The people who,

they raise money for round one, will not participate in round two and three. So

the people who you talk to for round two and three say, is round one participating? That's

the first question I always ask. Is round one going to participate? When you, and when you go

to round one, you say, listen, I got, I got, I got you guys on a 50 times, but this time is it less

liquidity of, well, I got to do it on a 20 times. Not only they're not going to participate,

they're pissed off. And that the investor community is quite small, relatively speaking,

and it's a bad look and sometimes you won't get the deal away.

I think that in these environments you can under-promise

and over-perform and raise money at a more normalised rate.

Maybe now you might be at a little underdone because there's a lot

of illiquidity around.

You know, people going, oh, shit, I don't need to invest in these things anymore.

I can put my money in the bank and earn 6%.

A lot of those people are going to disappear.

But sometime this year it will normalise.

So it's best to raise money when the market is either normalised

or getting close to normalising and will normalise, in Australia at least,

will normalise sometime after March, April when the Reserve Bank stops doing

what it's doing, just kicking everyone in the guts.

Once that happens, our liquidity market which you're going

to tap into will normalise.

So, you know, if you're doing rounds now and doing your pitches now,

it's actually a good time to do it.

I would say we're exploring.

I think that's all right now.

I think we're in a good position.

Yeah, we're just talking to people.

We're not desperate that we need to – I shouldn't use that word,

but we're not – you know, we can't – we have cash flow to operate

the business.

We have runway.

So we don't need to worry that we're not going to be able

to pay salaries in two months.

So I think that's been a – it's been a nice way to have these conversations

in a way that we don't need this right now, but how can we –

That's a smart way to do it too, by the way, Laura.

Like just going and saying, look, wouldn't mind touching base.

We want to come and meet and greet.

Yeah.

We want to – not necessarily pitch, but it is sort of pitch

because at some stage we might be doing something later in the year.

We just like to introduce you to our business.

I mean the tech stack and how everything works, you know,

which is what they're all interested in.

Give a little bit – and if you would like some more, you know,

get into the weeds a little bit more, you know, give us a call

and we'll, you know, set something up.

That's a smart way to do it.

To some extent I would say you're lucky that the liquidity boom stopped

because it's a better environment.

It's a better environment to allow you to expand into other markets

in due course over the next five or ten years.

You're still young.

You've got a ten-year, you know, horizon ahead of you.

Yeah, at some stage someone might come and try and buy you.

Like they bought the sweat app, you know, but whoever bought the sweat app

probably thinks they probably paid too much today.

And I know a lot of businesses are sold.

I'm not saying sweat app was sold for too much, you know.

We love the sweat guys.

But the health and fitness industry subscription in general

has changed since 2020 because we all saw a boom

in 2020.

There was a boom in 2020 that you cannot replicate now

because it was no one could go to the gym so they had no other option.

Now people have options and it's been fantastic

because the shift in mindset, some people thought I can't work out at home

or I don't want to follow an app at the gym.

They now are open to that.

So the environment and the amount of people that we're able

to kind of reach has grown.

That's fantastic.

However, the growth that businesses were having in 2020 to think that

and at a time, we were at a time, I mean it's why everyone

was getting these valuations.

You've grown by 200% this year so next year can you do 400%

and have some more money.

That's when people are back in the gym, that's pretty hard to do.

So I think too in terms of the fitness industry as well,

it's been really great because it's opened a lot of people's eyes

to the fact that you can have an app in your pocket that has,

you know, recipes, mindfulness and workouts.

Maybe for a lot of people a PT is inaccessible because of the price point.

They might have a gym membership.

They want to know what to do.

That's where they can have that support, right?

For us, we're $20.

We want to be accessible price point and that's great that audience

has opened up but as well, it is more competitive now

because gyms are open again but that's the norm.

It's not normal to be locked down.

So I think it is a good time for us.

It is a good time as well as when you sell into those environments,

investors aren't stupid, they put conditions on there.

So they say, well, we'll give you some now and we'll give you the balance

down the track but it depends on hitting like you just said,

like you're growing at 200%.

Well, we expect you to grow at 300, 400 and whatever over the next few years

and if you don't, we'll be reducing the price.

We never hear about, I'm not saying anyone I know that's happened to

but I've been through that process myself when I sold the wizard business.

You know, we sold it for a huge amount of money back in 2004

but equally there were conditions put on there too in terms of there was

an installment process and you had to satisfy the conditions.

I was lucky.

I was lucky because the 2008 GFC didn't hit until after all my conditions

had been satisfied.

But if I had been two years later, the GFC would have hit

and I would never have been able to satisfy the conditions

because, you know, the GFC killed liquidity in my world,

stopped people borrowing money.

We couldn't lend money to people and you couldn't even do it

than what I was doing back in 2004.

So, yeah, so for those people who sit around thinking, oh, God,

you know, it was so good.

You know, you...

Here's all this money during, you know, 2020 or 21 or 22.

You know, it's unfair.

Well, no, it's not unfair.

Actually, markets change, condition the situation sort of restructures

and there's an advantage for you to miss out on that sometimes as well.

Absolutely.

And I think too it's I don't think as a business,

which is why we didn't try and raise money in 2020,

we were equipped to if we got that evaluation to know what to do

with that money.

No.

And that's also that's when I think it gets really, really risky

because then you think, oh, I should, I've got the money.

I've got to do something.

I need to spend it.

And you start spending it in maybe brand awareness,

great thing to invest in, but maybe team and all of these things

that your business is not set up for or the foundations aren't set for

and then you blow all the cash.

You overspend.

And then what do you do?

Yeah.

And I think that's why now we have got all those plans in place

because we're not, again, we were only going to try and raise money

and explore this kind of these opportunities if we needed the money

and we knew how we're going to spend it and we had kind of what have we,

spend this money, this is what we're going to get out of it

and this is where we're going to do it.

You've got to be very clear you're right actually because when investors,

when you're talking to investors, the first thing they say is what's the spend?

So show me the application of the money that you're going to raise

and they can smell bullshit really quickly.

Like if you're just going to the market because you know you're going

to tap the market because there's plenty of money around,

they'll know that straight up.

But then as soon as you've got the money you're right,

they'll be on your back, why haven't you spent the money?

Because there's negative carry for them.

So if they're, if you raise, you know, $50 million,

and because you're going to go spend the money on, you know,

another environment or you're going to go to London or you're going to go

to the US, whatever the case may be, and if you don't,

the investor sees that as being money you're sitting in the bank

and that is what they call negative carry because you're not adding

the value that you told them that you're going to add.

So then you get pressured to spend the dough and when you start

getting pressured to spend the dough, nine times out of ten,

you'll spend too much.

Yeah.

You'll spend on the wrong things.

So this is all about proper timing, proper program,

you know, well thought out and patient purpose.

And I, so that's probably my answer to your question.

Now is as good a time as any.

In fact, it's probably better than it was before if you are well positioned

to go down that track.

Or maybe you're just going to do some meet and greets and just start

to warm people up and see, gauge the market yourself.

What are, what sort of multiples are people interested in investing in?

Can I just ask you one more question before I go or before,

because I know you've got, you've got things to do,

but do you engage someone to do this for you?

Do you have a lead, you know, a lead on this?

We have.

Yeah, you said.

We have got someone that we're working with that we're kind of doing a road show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What do they call it?

Yeah, it's a road show.

So you get a lead, so like an investment manager or you'll get someone

who knows these people, these investors will take you around to all the various shops.

Exactly right.

But I think with Kik we are really lucky in that we,

and we had a really great interview with the AFR a few weeks ago.

Yeah.

Which I'm guessing you read, how you knew that.

And because the AFR's audience is, there's a lot of investors that read the AFR.

They're the only people who read it, no one else reads it.

Yeah, exactly.

We're lucky in that.

Oh, sorry, I need to stop using the word lucky because we created it.

I do think luck came into it, but not 100%.

That the interest in Kik because we have established a very well-known brand

within Australia, especially targeting 20 to 30-year-old young women.

It is really hard to, because as we've spoken about today,

we define things really differently.

We are different.

We think differently.

It's hard.

And so I think a lot of people have identified that and seen that Kik is doing a really,

really great job in the area.

And so, so far we've, it's been really wonderful having the conversations because

instead of always having to pitch, obviously there's always the pitch and, you know,

explaining the business, the context of who we are, what we do, how strong our brand is,

is there, which has been a really great way to start it.

And access to the audience.

You're a broadcaster in some respects.

You have a product, but you're also a broadcaster.

So because these people are listening to what you say, and I don't want to say you're an influencer,

but you, other people.

We do, we influence people.

Yeah, but people will see your ability to influence someone in relation to perhaps a product or a service.

And that could be any investor.

It could be, it could be a newspaper.

It could be a television company.

It could be all sorts of people who are interested in this sort of stuff.

It could be media-based companies interested in this sort of stuff.

And we see that, you know, people like,

you know, Disney and all those, Disney Plus, et cetera, they, they're interested in these sorts of environments.

Especially if they're global, but particularly, you know, probably here in Australia as well.

So I think, yeah, it's pretty exciting where you guys are at.

I mean, I know you launched the book and all that sort of stuff, but your kick business, the business itself is very exciting.

And the fact that you're besties and yes, you're only young and you've got so much stuff ahead of you.

So cool.

Thank you.

I'm really glad you came in.

I appreciate it.

I appreciate your time and thank you very much.

And I can't wait to get you guys to sign up for me.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Good luck to you.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to another episode of Straight Talk with Mark Borris.

Audio production by Jessica Smalley.

Production assistants, Jonathan Leondis and Simon McDermott.

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