182 Michael Hooper On Leading The Wallabies Life Beyond The Game

if you're anything like us you love attention and my favorite way to get all eyes on me is with next

level shiny glossy hair which is why we're so excited to tell y'all about the new lamellar

gloss collection from the girlies at tresemme and gigglers we've got you too because tresemme

partnered with us to bring you 1-800-GLOSS a special bonus episode of giggly squad where

hannah and i give advice on all things hair and giving gloss check out the episode and grab the

lamellar gloss collection today because i'm officially declaring this spring gloss season

work today moves fast but monday.com is here to help with their work management product it's built

for more than just marketing teams it connects entire organizations to bridge the gap between

strategy and execution plus with built-in ai capabilities your team can work smarter not

harder maximize your marketing impact with the first work product you

and your team can make it happen

your team will love to use visit us at monday.com to learn more i'm my boris and this is straight

talk my luba welcome to straight talk thank you for having me how good how you feeling well a

little bit tired i was on uh got late got in late last night from dubai um there was a sevens

tournament up there so i was up there doing a bit of uh stuff with hsbc which is in commentary or

a bit of commentary um a bit of rugby stuff so sevens competition the sevens kicked off their

competition for the year

so big event up in dubai which was uh yeah cracking cracking start it's mad up there isn't it like the

stuff that's going on in the middle east like saudi dubai abu dhabi did you have a look around

mate i didn't i wanted to get to the wave pool that kelly's just opened up in abu dhabi but no

we were stuck we were in dubai but the event was cricket rugby sevens like you know um there's a

heap of stuff going on some uh a big concert right at the end of it yeah it was a lot of fun i do so

so um i actually sat with um

i had breakfast with a mate of mine got a ginge david and uh he went to the wave pool last week

which one into in abu dhabi did that new one there's no hotel built there but it's just the

the facility he said it is unbelievable and he showed me some videos of him um on some waves

and he went over the mobile blokes and um two blokes and they booked the whole joint out

and uh he said he said you just he said the place is on steroids he said that whole between

abu dhabi is like an hour and a half between that and dubai he said just driving through you're not

anymore you're driving through disneyland on steroids it's mental uh every facility you can

possibly imagine for anyone in the world sporting fun recreation hotels pools middle of desert like

everything is mental they were in a mall that had an aquarium in it like genuine sharks in the

aquarium and then you're just walking past and buying something there's nothing yeah mate it's

remarkable great place yeah so so what are they doing in terms of rugby sevens so uh what's what's

going on there what was dubai was this just a

just the start of rugby yeah start of their tournament so i mean their last big thing was

the olympics so it was quite an interesting one because as always new seasons new sort of after

that end of the four-year period there's a new cycle so yeah sevens kicks off they go you know

through they're down to cape town this week but then they'll come to perth hong kong and i think

end up uh singapore and la so that's their tournament that's pretty cool so you you try

to get to rugby sevens olympics tried yeah whatever the key word what happened uh mate it's

the olympics 2016. probably before that arguably before that it was a little bit specialist but not

as special a specialist as it is now it's bloody hard different energy source different skill set

they are real generalists in what they have to do they've got a pass they've got to be super fit

they're all agile um and all 22 22 and fast yeah and 22 years old and i'm 30 i tried to do it at 32

and had never played before played two tournaments and uh yeah i had a had a had a good first game and

downhill from there pretty quick so what was it is a gas what's that did you is it the amount of

gas you have do you have to have to play sevens or is it the speed of the game what is it oh well

i was a fit 15s player i had a good engine in 15s footy but in sevens it's the repeat speed and

being fast but then being able to repeat it and repeat it and then the skill set the ball moves

differently to what you know it's still tackle it's still past still scrum and line out the

things that we know about footy but it's just the ball moves different and it's hard it's um

yeah it's fast i was

underdone there's so much more space yeah because there's less people obviously but there's so much

space and it looks like you know you get to run a lot further than you would in a 15s game yeah

yeah a lot further than you would and you know i'd been playing a certain way for 15 years and

then i had to try and undo that undo that sort of subconscious way of how i entered the field

and i struggled i struggled so i got better as i think if i had a little bit longer

um we would have got a bit closer but uh no not not to be it would have been cool the guys end

up coming forth in the olympics so

it would have been nice but no no dice one of the one of the uh roosters recent recruits

which is um the team i'm on the i'm on the board of um is mark he played in the rugby sevens in

in in the olympics in paris mark n-a-w-a-q and i cannot spell the rest of his name yeah i cannot

pronounce it um no one can hear me twice here that's it yeah and uh he's how do you think

because you know between the two codes been a lot of switching um you know we've had uh joseph

suali recently um he's gone that way to rugby and now we've got someone like mark going to rugby

league how do you think that sort of transition occurs i always thought someone like rocky

elson would have been a great rugby league player i i just i just thought something about him i

think you would have been too tough you've got to be i'm not saying rugby union is not tough

but there's got to be a lot of um there's a lot of physical consequences rugby league when you've

got the ball on your own and uh you've got to hit it up and you're always sort of pretty robust

physically robust bloke what do you think about that changeover between either rugby league rugby

union or rugby league let's talk rugby unit rugby league first going rugby union to rugby league

well i think what do you think it takes oh well i think mark marky's the i mean the picture boy for

it i mean his first game was unbelievable i played heaps with mark um and i think the gift that mark

he has well he played a little bit of league growing up well a lot of league growing up

but his athletic ability his

um able to get uh leap you know he's one of those guys kind of like israel right that just

sort of levitates up everyone else jumps but they just glide up and and have hang time um and i

loved how hungry he was for some of his carries off the line you know he goes plays what is it

holding cup yeah the games below so he's managed by the same manager that i am so i was seeing some

of his um cup performances and then you know his uh debut there for the roosters and it's gonna

you know he was carrying those hard ones off the you know off the try line look i i

don't think there's anywhere to hide on the rugby league field like you watch a game of origin and

i don't think there's a tougher game origin um you know played like and i you know played a lot

of rugby and rugby is a tough game but it's tough diff in a different way um i think rugby league's

probably tougher and uh in like there's no there's no hiding well you you carry you got to carry off

off your try line like you've got five guys after you um and you can't you can't hide you know the

i don't know it looks i would love to have a crack at it um but yes it looks uh it's a brutal sport

how about the other way so joseph swally's swally is now gone from rugby league to playing for

australia um anything has been going for this let's look at that first again two games again

similar to marky right like he's he played a fair bit of union at school was that one of the

you know big rugby schools in in sydney yeah uh and obviously that whole week around that england

i was i was very surprised that he was selected big call to make and he did so well like man that

kid again um has that ability to levitate has that time in the air looks like an incredible athlete

looks like his preparation i mean i heard him on this show um and just the detail he has for a

young man yeah 21 and 21 in his preparation is leaps and bounds ahead of um many 21 year olds

um that i've ever seen myself included you know the the way he's

going about his business at that time so i mean he is gonna be uh yeah gonna be immense

you mentioned is he is ralph falau and i just want to touch on that for a second if you don't mind

i don't want to get into politics but let's call it politics of

um censorship you would remember what happened um i've forgotten actually completely i'm gonna

remind you but israel sort of like got outed

you know playing at the highest level of rugby union and i don't even know what he's doing now but

one of the most promising like rugby rugby or rugby league doesn't really matter

rugby you know competitors that the both both codes have shown um

how easy is it to fall out with the administration

of a game and how relevant is the administration and if you're a player do you have to conform

conform or what's the deal it's an interesting question i think it's an interesting question i

think it's an interesting question i think it's an interesting question i think it's an interesting

i think it's an interesting question i think it's an interesting i mean that is such a broad topic

i mean that is such a broad topic

i mean that is such a broad topic right because who are the most supported

right because who are the most supported

right because who are the most supported um i guess entities in the world it's

um i guess entities in the world it's

um i guess entities in the world it's actually the athlete not the teams a

actually the athlete not the teams a

actually the athlete not the teams a lot of the time so the biggest

lot of the time so the biggest

lot of the time so the biggest followed and um supported people around

followed and um supported people around

followed and um supported people around the world

the world

the world your ronaldo's or your lombron james's or

your ronaldo's or your lombron james's or

you know, people within the teams, the stories within the, not the teams themselves. I mean,

you know, maybe a Man U or, you know, a Yankees or something like that, you know,

household names, they're up there, but they still don't have the same type of followers that some of

these individuals have. So getting that balance right of how do you allow someone to be themselves

and represent the community that they represent and fit within a team is a trick. That's what

the team's all about. How do you get that balance right? You know, with all different, we see it in

all different situations. And I think rugby is a really tough one, isn't it? And sport in general,

because when you're a paid athlete and I'm not making any excuses for people and, you know,

myself included, I've made mistakes and publicly made mistakes as well. So I'm part of this

as well, but you're a well-paid young man in a team environment, trying to find your way at 20,

21 years old with pressure, ego, expectation, all these things.

Immaturity.

Immaturity.

And we expect people to be finished products and we're kind of surprised that we're not.

So, you know, I think it's, it's inevitable that mistakes are going to be made and going to,

and going to happen whether, you know, people deem them as mistakes or not, but how do we

then allow, well, not, you know, you don't want to cancel someone because of one thing that's done.

How do you then bring, you know, second chances are super important in life because, you know,

there's guys out, guys and girls making mistakes every weekend. That's how you,

you learn and you grow is you make a mistake and you go,

man, you just want the mistakes not to be super grand. And I'm not, I'm not talking about the

Israel Folau thing here. I'm more going on a broader spectrum when it comes to, you know,

being out in public or, you know, comments made on social media, you know, all those type of things.

Do you think there's a level of, or should there be a level of responsibility

to a sports person who is getting paid good money?

That cuts across their own belief system.

Do you think, is that, I mean, is that a fair thing? Do you think?

Explain that more to me.

Well, like Israel's view on homosexuality relative to his religious beliefs,

which he seems to be fairly strident about. There was an expectation that he didn't take

that into the public arena because he had, he's a representative player on good money.

It brings, potentially brings a game to disrepute because the administration of the game believes

that, um, has a different belief system and more a majority belief system. That is, you know,

there's nothing wrong with homosexuality, it's accepted, blah, blah, blah. And therefore,

if you go and say something that's against our group belief, um, that's going to be a problem

for you, ultimately you, Israel, which is sort of what happened. Um, and I'm not, I'm not asking

you for do, uh, give me an ethical view on between his beliefs and what the rugby union beliefs are.

That I'm not,

that's not territory I want to go to, but, but as a sports person, a young sports person who

firmly believes in anything, is it important or how important is it for the administration to

tell him how to speak publicly?

Uh, well, it is important. Um, but how that's managed, because again, we're talking about

athletes who represent a community and that's a good thing. Um, as long as it's, uh, you know,

a healthy, positive discussion and, um, you know, so how that's communicated, you want,

um, different, that's the great thing about a team. You've got different personalities and

represent different things. And, um, but the communication and how that's then portrayed

is probably the discussion that, um, you know, I'm not sure who's nailing it at the moment.

I haven't digged deep enough into it of the, you know, sports around the world that really

nail this, this type of a thing. So, um, yeah, I mean, I'd, I'd like to know how it's, how it's

done, uh, best because yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky water. It really is.

Yeah. Cool. You know, in summary,

stuff someone's career up. A lot of people just say, listen,

okay, I get it. I'll hold my views to myself. I've got my views and my community views. I'll just

put my, I'll prosecute my community view, my view within my own community. And I'll just be quiet

relative to everything else. But other people sort of see themselves as, um, so strident that

they nearly feel as though they've got an obligation relative to their community, their personal

community, their private community that actually is over and above the rugby, rugby union community.

So you, you all of a sudden you get conflicted. Now you, you had run in with Eddie Jones. Didn't,

you know, like he's your coach. Um, and you know, if you don't like him, he doesn't like you. It sort

of limits your career to some extent. And it did to some extent. Um, at what point do you say, okay,

stuff it. I'll just fall in line. I'll do what I gotta do. I'll do it. I'll do it. I, I, I, my

career is more important. I'm, I'm, and, um, I'm just going to fall in line and do what I'm told.

Well, what's your, what you got to ask yourself, what's your hierarchy?

You know, what do you want to achieve? If you want to achieve, yeah, you know,

I guess disagreement with a coach, or do I want to fall in line? Cause I want to make the team or

do I want to, and I'm not saying that was my situation or you got to choose where,

where you value your things and then whatever's at the top, you gotta go after that. I think

that's, that's the simple way of doing it. That's interesting. So, and I think I sort

of agree with it. Not, I've never been in that position, but like, I think I agree with that.

That seems to be the most practical outcome. In other words, if you choose a path, then you,

that's your path. Don't worry about the consequences because you can't complain

about the consequences. If you choose that path, when you make the priority, you say,

that's my priority. God in his case is my priority. And the written scriptures is my priority. Um,

my community and my private community is my priority. Then you can't really complain about

the consequences at the end of the day. Well, you got to accept whatever they're

going to be, right?

Because you can't, you can't choose what the outcome is going to be. That's what we like

as athletes. I mean, you, you want to try and control as much as you possibly can control,

but you're never going to know what the fallout is in a, in a game sense on the field. You never

know what the fallout is going to be, you know, off the field. You never know what people are

going to take this conversation for even as an example and then how that's going to go. So,

um, yeah, I think you've got to be comfortable in the position or the stance that you take,

but then after the fact, that's what review's about. Like you see that,

week to week in sport, you see that. And like I talked about, if someone makes a mistake or if

someone, you get good feedback, okay, well, do I want to do that again? Do I not want to do that

again? What would I change? How do I want to go? Do I want to change my values or my hierarchy

after that? Um, you know, so that reflection and review is important, but you've got to make a

choice at the end of the day, don't you? And, and that comes down to action.

Let's have a look at who Michael Hoover was growing up. Manly kid.

Yep. Local, local school. Where'd you go to school?

So I went to school in Chatswood. I went to high school in Chatswood. Um,

just mum wanted to get me off the beaches, I think.

So a state school or a rugby school?

Yeah. St. Pius.

St. Pius.

Yeah. So good. Yeah. Not a, not a big rugby school, but a rugby school.

And mum wanted to get, wanted to get you away from the Northern beaches, did she?

For real?

It's a bit of a bubble, mate. You know what it's like. You know what they say about the

inshallah, the inshallah.

And although they also say now about the Southern Shire and they also now say,

and they definitely been saying about these for a long time. So, but for sure,

mum wanted to get you away from the beach scene.

Yeah. Well, I think so. Yeah. I mean, when we talk about it now, there was an element of,

you know, being, I mean, Chatswood's right on the train line there. You'd get exposure to

different things. It was a, a good school, day school, not a, not a boarding, like, um,

had to travel a bit to get there, you know, from Coleroy Plateau. So we weren't in Manly.

Oh, so you were on the plateau. Like you were right in the heart of the Northern beaches.

In the thick of it, mate. Yeah. So, um.

Surfer.

Surfer.

You were surfing there?

Yeah. Surfing then.

We were in the, we were also in the surf club.

Did Manly surf club.

Manly surf club. Okay. So you're on the beach weekends.

Then go, whenever you get an opportunity to go and have a ride of the board. Mum was pretty,

uh, intuitive then because, uh, she knows where, you know, like she knows that she knew,

I should say the, um, the, uh, seduction of that whole lifestyle.

Yeah.

What it brings with it. Um, you know, drugs, party, loose. And you're a kid at this stage.

You're like.

12, uh, 13, you're going to high school.

Yeah. No, well, I mean, yeah, there's elements of the stuff that you talk about anywhere you go, you know,

any rugby teams or surf clubs or whatever, but there's also the other stuff around surf club, but the

year around fit, healthy guys and girls getting out. It's an, it's an early, like a early morning

community because the ocean is the best in the morning, you know? So you're, you're spending your

time on the beach, you're staying healthy. Like, um, I think that that's probably some of the values

that a surf club has. Like I'm, I'm backed down.

I train with a bunch of guys on a Tuesday morning ranging from 70 down. I think I'm the youngest down there now.

So when I turn up there and it's just all, you know, old, everything's got rust on a gym on a Tuesday morning.

And, uh, when my knees are a bit cranky, I've got no excuse, mate. So there's a few older fellas in there.

So it's cool to be part of that because now I'm not playing in a team. I'm not in that sort of team environment.

It's kind of like this little, um, little guys group that gets up early and trains on a, on a five 15 on a Monday, on a Tuesday morning.

How good, how good is that too?

It's good, especially with the old guys. I'm one of the old guys. So you weren't surprised.

So what point did you realize that you could play footy?

Oh, look, I represented a lot of rep teams growing up. Um, I was competitive, younger of an older brother.

So he's 18 months older than me. So everything we did was competition, mate.

So like, you know, if we're out in the surf and I see him catch a good wave, I'm not looking because he might check in and, you know, he's got one up on me.

And, you know, we didn't play a lot of footy in the backyard, but, you know, even stuff like we're playing, you know,

PlayStation games, you'd have to play together because if we're playing against each other, it would end in not fights.

Like we weren't fighters, um, but arguments and just, you know, like a saltiness for a little bit.

So, uh, yeah, it was always games that we'd do together and stuff like that.

But look, I think being the younger of an older brother, naturally you just become super competitive.

So in terms of rugby, like it was a sport, I liked the physicality of it.

Were you always, were you always solid?

Yeah, I was doing, well, my dad's a pom originally.

So he came out.

And landed in Manly and as, you know, poms do, or you do when you turn up somewhere, the beautiful thing about rugby is you get involved in that community and, you know, he credits being involved in that sort of Manly circle as giving him, you know, a life out here and his network and his friends and, you know, meeting my mom eventually, who was, uh, from, from Concord, the inner West, you know, so, um, we, we very much, um, you know, that's why we're part of the surf club, part of the Manly Marlins and, and that sort of thing.

And in terms of becoming good at footy, like, I think I, I loved the Wallabies, the Wallabies when I was growing up, 99 World Cup, 2001, um, I go and watch them beat the Lions in the third test, um, which we've got coming out next year, which is hugely exciting.

2003, I went to the semifinal where they, they beat the, um, the Kiwis, um, Sterling Mortlock famously takes a intercept and, and runs.

I was at the, at the stadium when that happened.

So fond memories of rugby, but never thought that, okay, that's something I'm going to do.

It was very much like, oh.

I love the game.

I love competing.

And at each level you get to, or for me very much, it was, okay, this is a new chance to test myself.

And then when you get comfortable and you feel like you play well and play well consistently, um, then you're like, okay, well, what's the next level look like?

And, and it just goes on and on.

So, but, but was there somebody that you were looking up to?

Like, I mean, I, when I was a kid, I was in rugby league terms, I always idolized a couple of particular individuals who were playing in the can.

I remember being some, uh, comp at those in those days and typical kid, like, you know, I sort of pretended to be them.

And, uh, was there some of you idolized in rugby terms?

Yeah, there was probably three players.

So George Greig and Stephen Larkham, they were the nine, 10.

I'd never played nine and 10, but I just, I thought their combination was amazing.

But the guy in particular that, um, played my position was George Smith.

So George Smith, he actually went to school right near my house at Cromer.

So I was a Coleroy Platter, grew up.

Um, he was down at Cromer at high school, played for Manly Marlins.

Again, my club.

So, you know, there was that connection of, um, where just location, right?

Right.

And the, what I loved about George was he had impact on both sides of the ball.

So I think some of the times the criticism of players in play the same position as I do is you, um, you're either defensive or all attack.

And I liked with George that he had impact on both sides of the ball and he was consistent.

You know, it wasn't rocks or diamonds.

Every week was just amazing.

So he was down at the Brumball.

Um, and I finished school and went down to the Brumby side, uh, uh, you know, a season and a bit with, uh, with George, which was really cool.

Uh, so was that around, was Timmy McGann around in those days?

Was Tim McGann?

No, no, he wasn't.

He was before you?

Yeah.

He's much before you.

Okay.

So a couple of, cause did you ever get, do you ever get, cause he went off to play West Tigers.

Did you ever get seduced into thinking I'd go play Robbie Lee?

No, no, not.

Uh, I was.

Cause you're going to play, just looking at you, I can see you and playing it as a back row or as a linebacker.

Yeah, I, um, I would have loved to, but I was so hell bent on being a part of a Wallaby team and a Waratahs team and trying to get, take, try and win a world cup, try and win a Bledisloe.

And it wasn't until later in my career that you go, Oh, could I have, you know, had a, had a little lick at that.

Um, but, uh, yeah, I was, you know, it's easy to say now, but I think the right time would be like what, uh, maybe I met Mark and, um, Joseph are doing it well younger than I was.

In the twenties.

Yeah.

But like.

You know, mid twenties, 26, 27, you're right physically to, at a really good spot to do it.

You're hungry.

You know what your game and mentally your game can look like.

Yeah.

There's going to be different elements of, of what you need to do on the field, but mentally you're, you know what you're about.

I reckon that would have been a good, good time to do it.

So who was your favorite player to play with?

Oh, I've got plenty.

I've got Bernard Foley, uh, Rob Horn, Nick Phipps, um, Adam Ashley Cooper.

Why?

Pick one and tell me why.

Oh, my good, like they're good friends, good friends, but I loved playing with guys who were consistent and competitive.

Um, they would just get on the field and, um, it meant a lot to them.

Um.

In that they wanted to win.

Yeah.

Wanted to win.

That's infectious to be around.

Like there was a, there's a group of guys, you know, rugby hasn't been, you know, really, I mean, the top of the log for a, for a fair while now.

So part of a crew going, Hey, let's do our absolute utmost to try and get there.

Now it was a huge experience.

It was an exciting prospect and it was tough, you know, like it's super competitive to try and get there and stay there as a difference between, you know, one off, good, good win here, but to have consistency over a long period of time, that's really hard.

Um, and that's what we're, you know, trying to, trying to do as a team and being involved with your Michael checkers, your Dave Rennie's like, you know, great coaches respectfully.

Um, that's what they wanted as a, it's a lot of fun to be a part of.

That's why I played.

Like it's a, it's a tough game.

Yes.

You're well, you're well paid.

Yes.

You get to play footy.

You get to play footy for a living, all those sorts of stuff, but might as well do it.

You might as well rip in and try and try and get a couple, you know, wins along the way.

So how, but how, so cause you know, Australian rugby starting to show some signs now, but prior to more recently, it was like looking a bit, sorry, how important is it for four or five guys in a side to say, we're going to win this.

We've got to get it.

We got to get it together.

I mean, does that, does that start with a coach or does that start with, let's call it the senior guys or not?

Even senior guys, just the team, four or five guys saying, listen, we've got to win this next, whatever it is, this next series, whatever the series is and take it upon yourselves to do it.

Was that something you guys were doing like in your environment?

Oh, I tried to, tried to, I don't think we didn't, we didn't get it right.

Definitely part of a group that got it right once and almost twice.

Well, it got into the final of 2015 world cup.

We won super title in 2014 with a bunch of those guys that I mentioned.

Um, you know, so I, I look, it's going to take everyone within a squad to, to win something proper.

It doesn't mean everyone's going to get on board.

Everyone's going to have the same attitude or is it just, is there a small group that sort of drags everyone together along with it?

Like a comment, you know, there's the comment, there's a tail and the, the gravity of the comment pulls the rest.

I mean, cause I can't imagine trying to get 15 guys or a whole squad, whatever that is, 20 odd, 20 odd guys all on the same page.

Like all beers keen to do something.

As, as the next bloke, if you get four or five, I can see that happens.

Like in rugby league, your spine wins your games.

You got all the rest of the support, but just a good spine to win the games.

You got Penrith, look at Melbourne.

Um, and that's probably been the same for a long, long time.

In rugby union, is there any sort of equivalent in terms of not necessarily your spine, but just in terms of the leadership group, senior team, the senior guys?

Yeah, I think a spine's relevant in terms of, you know, the importance of having, you know, the right positions on the real influence.

The right influential positions on the field locked down.

So I think.

Well, what are they?

What are they in rugby union?

Oh, um, I mean, at this day and age, it'd be a tight head prop, um, tight head lock, um, one or two good back rowers, nine, 10 are always going to be important.

And then, um, I'm probably going to get slayed for this, but you know, um, because everyone, every, every position's important, but, um, yeah, then, you know, backfield player, um.

A backfield player being, what's that mean?

Oh, sorry.

A winger fullback.

A winger fullback.

Oh, actually probably no.

You, wingers.

You could probably.

Um.

Um, actually a center, a really good center, 12, 12, 13 center.

Yeah.

Really?

A center.

Mm.

Center's really important.

Not, not a fullback.

Uh, well, I mean.

That's interesting because, you know, rugby league's a bit opposite of that because you get fed the ball every fifth tackle or the fullback.

So you need somebody to take the ball up every, you know, every fifth tackle, but it's a different game.

But rugby union center, because that's interesting because they've got, they've gone and signed up Joseph as a center.

Um, and I'm just wondering whether that is the, the game plan, that is the thinking right now.

Yeah.

For him as a center.

Well, I mean, he's, he's got the athletic prowess to play anywhere.

Yeah.

Um, I mean, it's one of the luxuries.

He's big enough.

He's big enough.

Strong enough.

Agile enough.

Look switched on enough to, to be able to get it all together.

Uh, center's really hard defensively.

You're very, you have to be a very.

As a defender, you mean, or.

As a defender.

Or do you defend against.

And well, both, both, but as a defender, you are a critical part in, uh, communicating

what's going on.

You've got a bit more time.

So you've got vision.

So you've got to make decisions around, you know, you know, the numbers you have, um,

where you are on the field.

Um, so it's a, it's a really nuanced position, um, the 13, 13.

Is that right?

Yes.

So, so, so center's calling.

12, 13.

Yeah.

12, 13.

So at center, you're calling defensive positions.

You're saying, hang on, move across here.

You mean from that point of view as, as a team, let's not call it the team manager, but as

a defensive manager, like fullback in rugby league is that person.

Cause he's, he, he.

He's always directing the position or she, if it's N or W, but always directing everyone

into position because they can see everything from there.

But you're saying center and, uh, rugby union is really important in that regard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think so.

Wow.

That's interesting.

So therefore center is like a, sort of like a spine player for rugby union.

Yeah.

And, and like, I mean the thing, I don't want to say you have to have those positions, but,

um, you know, I, I mentioned those guys up front because if you don't have a good set

piece, you're not going to win test rugby.

Mention your nine and 10.

They quarterback.

They're the backs of the game.

They get the most touches, most hands on the ball.

So that's obviously going to be a spine position.

Um, and then your communication from, yeah, your back three, all your centers.

And I'm not saying it's solely a 13, um, or solely a 12.

We saw Israel go through the wing.

Um, his first day was on the wing scores, a double in, you know, a lion's test match.

Um, so he went through the wing, went to fullback tried center.

Um, so he, he was, you know, moving around a fair bit, um, as well.

So I'm not saying any one of those positions, but if you have a strong enough personality,

in and around that, but without doubt, your, your three and your, your number four or five

are critical just in terms of a set piece.

So do you, is it, do you think it's important in rugby union to have, I don't like using

the word because rugby union is even more worried about this sort of stuff, but like

an enforcer up front?

Oh mate, I'd love to have an enforcer in every team.

Yeah.

Like someone, an enforcer being someone, everybody's going, oh shit, I don't, last thing I want

to do is have to, um, pack down against this guy or a run at this guy.

Have him run at me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think, I think Bobby Valentini is our number six or eight at the moment, it's becoming

that for Australia, um, traditionally Wycliffe, Palu, Todai Kefu, um, guys like that.

But I think, um, like growing up, I remember almost play, um, going to play club rugby

and the Wallabies sometimes had to come back down and play club rugby.

And there was a player, Dan Vickerman, big second row up.

And he was a guy that just took people like me out around the rock.

So if I'm trying to get a turnover.

Or turn over the ball, I would have been, you know, 18, 19 at this point.

And this is what this guy did.

And he, you know, would break guy's ribs, he'd hit you.

And this was when the game, there was a bit, there wasn't camera angles on every play like

there is now.

So you could get away with a little bit more.

Six foot white fivers.

Oh yeah.

Big guy.

Giant.

Yeah.

Like one of the big locks, you know, big locks.

Um, and that was his, his role just to find you at a run.

He'd come flying in.

Yeah.

He'd come flying in.

And I'm like, before the game, I'm thinking, you know, I'm playing for Manly.

He was going to, I think he was a Sydney uni player.

You're thinking.

Yeah.

Like he's taking up mental space before you've even played the game.

Yeah.

And you're looking for him.

Well, you're looking for him.

Or if you're not and he finds you in the game, well, you're definitely looking for him after

that.

So without doubt, I think there's a place for that.

Um, and you know, that's the tough thing with all these, you know, contact rules and height

rules and everything like that is you don't want the game to, you don't want the big man

to be taken out of the game.

And we're fine.

I think rugby union more than rugby league's tough because the game's played a lot at different

levels.

You know, you've got the balls played on the ground.

Um, you know, whereas rugby league is much more up and down the field, um, but rugby

union, like you could probably slow mo every rock and there'd be head contact.

So how do you get that, that balance, right?

Cause you don't want to take the big man out of the game.

Cause that's what makes it awesome.

Well, that's cause that's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about.

Um, I mean rules, there's a lot of rules in rugby union.

I get confused, but, um, but if you, the point you just made about big men, what's interesting

about that.

And by the way, Joseph Swiley actually suffered this in the state of origin game because he's,

he is six foot five and he tackled someone who's much, much smaller.

Whether he could, could have pulled out of the tackle or not, but ended up having head

contact.

And that was his last state of origin.

He only played 10 minutes.

He never got to play the rest of the game.

And Joseph is not a vindictive style of person.

That's not his go.

Um, as far as I've, you know, I've, I've observed, um, but it was just by virtue of the fact

a little bit of carelessness, but by virtue of the fact he's very big.

Big guy and smaller guy rugby union, you can't tackle above here above the nipple, right?

Uh, at club level, you can, there's a bit more, there's a bit more at a test level.

Yeah.

But if there's any, if there's any chin, yeah, you're in strife essentially.

So do you think that it's not as an, it's not as interesting a game because it's a contact

game.

If the big men can't do their thing and, and take some risk at that, there might be some

head knock.

In other words, I'm a big guy, I'm six foot five, I try to tackle you, you're not six

foot five.

Um, there's a risk in there that I can't adjust because you might just fall down a little

bit and I can't adjust quick enough because all this stuff's in a split second, my God,

like these things happen so fast.

Um, and then I might accidentally hit you.

Do you think there's too much of that in rugby?

Therefore, as a result of that, too many rules around that stuff, cards, you're off for the

game, team's down a player.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, safety needs to be first and foremost.

How do we balance this stuff up there?

But you're putting yourself onto the field in a contact sport.

So there's an element, there's going to be an element of risk and going to be an element

of getting it wrong.

Like you said, there's no perfect way to balance a guy that's five foot nothing and a guy that's

six foot six.

There's going to be some disparity there.

Now, in terms of the recklessness and you take a risk, you make a call while you got

to try and make sure that calls, right?

And that was like trying to take a shot.

take a shot at goal.

You've got to aim up and make sure it goes between the sticks.

I think it's the same with getting a shot appropriately.

And I think it can be played safe.

But we've also got to accept the fact that as soon as you are running

into each other at full pace, there's an element of risk

and an element of things that you can't control.

Yeah, Boots slips out.

Unfortunately, with Reece Walsh, there's definitely slippage

before Suoliyi hits.

Yeah, so, you know, and saying that, I think he, Suoliyi, though,

made the decision to try and iron him out and hit him in the right spot.

But at that pace, but it just didn't work out that way,

and it was a shocking one to see.

But in terms of, like, a perfect storm, it was that.

I mean, had Reece Walsh carried it the right height,

it's one of the hits of the century.

Unfortunately, it's the hit of the century with all the wrong sort

of marrings about it.

But there's got to be an acceptance of, you know,

a rugby accident that happens.

But I think that was probably, that was dealt with probably the right way.

I think so, except that I don't think it was reckless.

I don't think there was any, like, you can either say an individual

intended to hurt somebody, and we don't know what anyone's intent is

because we can't look in their brain, but, or they were reckless to the outcome.

I think it was pretty clear he was trying to get a hold of him.

But he wasn't trying to hit him in the head.

Yeah, agreed.

And he totally was trying to iron him out, but, like,

hit him in the chest.

Hit him in the chest as opposed to him in the head.

The question then becomes, it becomes a value judgment then.

The referee makes a decision, Ashley Klein made a decision that,

as far as he was concerned, it was either intentional or reckless.

Either way, you're off.

But then the game just completely turns.

We don't have in rugby league what you have in rugby union.

I think it's like 10 or 20 minutes later you can send a replacement on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is that just a test level or is that everywhere?

No, across.

Across everything.

Yeah.

So, which makes sense.

That's, to me, quite a sensible thing.

I mean, rugby league needs to think about that sort of stuff.

But because you, at the end of the day,

the game is a game of entertainment.

And who are we entertaining?

We're entertaining the audience, the spectators.

And half the audience, let's make an assumption,

but half the audience goes one team, half the audience goes the other team,

especially in a state of origin, for example.

So, therefore, it's unfair for the audience to some extent

because we didn't see the contest we wanted to see.

We wanted to see at least see 13 or 13 or 15 or 15.

I don't want to see 14 versus 15.

And I don't even care if it's for 20 minutes because that 20 minutes

turns the game.

So, if you're in 14, you're playing.

If you're playing against 15, even if you get a replacement player

and comes back on in, is it 20 minutes?

Yeah.

20 minutes?

Yeah.

My legs are gone.

So, if the player goes off and it's deemed a red card,

so you'll get a yellow card, which is 10 minutes.

And if they go, no, no, the severity is worse than that,

he can't come back on, you can bring a different player on

after that 20 minutes.

After 20 minutes.

So, during that 20-minute period, the 14 side is that they're cooking

their legs and every other part of their body,

especially if you're up front.

So, you're getting cooked.

The guy comes on fresh, the new person comes on fresh, that's okay,

it's good, but it doesn't account for the 14 other players

who are just completely stuffed.

So, all of a sudden, I have a – and this is a general question

I want to put to you about rugby union.

These sorts of rules can affect the audience's affection for the game

and as a result of losing audience, audience migrates to something else.

They go watch something else because they love sports

so they go somewhere else.

And once you get latched on to something else,

it's hard to get them back and games need audiences.

That's where you make your money because you sell the audience to the advertiser.

The advertiser pays you the money, the money pays the players.

Players get attracted to play the game because they're going to get paid good money.

It takes Joseph out because he's a way outsider in terms of what he gets paid.

Yeah.

But the rest of the players, if you want to get the best game possible here in Australia,

you've got to pay the players the best amount of money possible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know what the hell it is, but a lot of sports people, you probably can play good

golf.

I'd imagine a good golf.

You can either play tennis or golf or cricket.

I mean, there's just something weird about sportsmen, athletes that can do everything

pretty much.

So what do you think the state of rugby union is?

then? Do they need to just chill out a little bit, relax a bit?

Well, I think there needs to be a level of acceptance that it's a dangerous game

that you can try and make safer. So what I mean by that is you're running into each other at full

pace. There's an element of risk, but that's kind of why guys play it aside from some of the,

I met some guys over in Dubai just in the last week. They're 45 playing rugby still,

just casually. They just love it. The contact, the camaraderie, all that stuff. There's something

about it that people are drawn to it. So there's an element of risk, like there is going in the

surf, jumping in your car, all that sort of stuff. And you can always choose not to play it.

Now, in terms of the product, I also don't want to see a product where Reece Walsh is getting that

and happening often. So I think that that happened in the first game, but it ended up

being a remarkable series. And I don't know, actually, I wouldn't know the stats around

the second and third game, but I don't remember there being a significant one like that.

Right.

There wasn't nothing.

So the players adjust and manage and get maybe, and there was no shortage of contact in that

third game. Bloody hell, like those guys are taking years off their lives. A remarkable,

remarkable game to watch. One of the best contact sports games I've seen, that third one.

Certainly one of the toughest I've ever seen.

Oh, it was incredible.

So they have a good product, okay?

Yeah.

Good product. Let's go to Rugby Union. What has Rugby Union got to do to get an equivalent

product?

Okay. So Sua Lee's game in England was a pretty good product. His first, his debut. Down to the

wire, good contest.

Soft hands too. Amazing.

Yeah. He's got great finesse, doesn't he?

He jumps up and just handed the ball over, like literally put it in his hands like that.

Mate, can I just talk on that week? Like that is a big test. Like that's a big test, no matter

what you're talking about. Playing at Twickenham, it's always a big test. But to do that without

playing a professional game of Rugby Union, yeah, he's played massive games of Rugby League and

whatnot.

Yeah.

As a debut game in a tough spot. We're talking about the centres being a tough spot and he's

got some great communicators around him in some of the players with him, Lenny Cattell

particularly and Andrew Kelleway in that backfield. But that was an incredible performance, you

know, out the gate. Like that was remarkable.

And actually, a lot of people I know say they want to watch the next game because of that.

Because A, we won. That helps.

Yeah.

But also-

We love beating the Poms.

We do and we haven't been doing it very often. But, you know, winners are winners, as you know.

But watching, a lot of people watched the second game because of hoping that Joseph would be

selected or at least get off the bench and play, which he did. But like that's, that, do you think

this is a strategic move then by Rugby Union, the ARU, Australian Rugby Union, that is a strategic

way of getting people back to the Rugby Union game as an audience?

Playing to a league.

Yep. Or signing him for that matter. I mean, is this a masterstroke?

By Hamish McLennan. Like, is it a masterstroke of signing up someone like that and having a lot

of vision that this guy could well bring the people back to the game?

I mean, if it does-

Do you think it will?

Do I think it will? I think he's going to be a star in the game. I think he's physically

too good not to, but then injury, how the team functions. We know that one guy,

you know, he's going to be a star. I think he's going to be a star. I think he's going to be a star.

I think he's going to be a star. I think he's going to be a star.

Carry a team in union or league or AFL. So you've got to have a good team around you.

They're starting to see some great shoots in that team. Well coached, starting to get confident. So

things like that. The thing that we know we've got coming is Lions is a massive

injection of cash and interest in the country for Rugby Union. And then you've got a home World Cup,

which is-

This year?

No, home World Cup 27.

27.

27. So the team has time to build. So that's

third biggest event in the world behind you know is that right soccer world cup viewership viewership

yeah um so massive massive thing coming into our country in that time so it's a hugely exciting one

now is sueli going to be a big part of that well all signs point up to yes of what's been done in

a very short period of time but then there's so many factors you know within that i don't think

he's signed till 2027 i'm not sure if he is if he is like he's got a five-year deal oh okay then he

is so um you know he's got to be managed well i think you know you take take a look at some of our

you know other codes around the world or codes in our own country who manage

top line play as well we can't just expect him to play 80 minutes every week train hard blah blah

blah how can we get the best out of him and uh you know joe smith who's at the top at the moment

who's um the wallaby coach has a really good understanding of that coming from an island

background he managed to do that with an island team and turn them into a well-managed unit

so um hopefully that that's able to be done with joseph alongside other key spine guys like we

talked about earlier so if if australia how do we get i mean i mean i had hoyles he's stevie hoyles

he's and he he didn't hold back but how do we how do we improve rugby union like at every level now

so let's just take it right down from you know winning games at the at the at the on the global

level on the australian side then down into the

you know the waratahs etc then down into you know waratahs brumbies and all the other sides

and then bring it down to the club level but then bring it down to the school level

so that rugby union can attract the best possible talent because like afl's not um got a big march

on both rugby league and rugby unit like in terms of you know new south wales in particular um you

know a lot of schools don't they play soccer or afl they don't play rugby

league or rugby union the private schools still do admittedly but how do we turn that around

there's afl in some of the private schools now that's what that was for me 30 years ago 100

but is it because um parent is it because and i'd like to get your view on this is it because

parents are starting to think both games rugby league and rugby union are too violent or too

too much contact and therefore does it actually mean is it correct that we should stop the

tackling no matter what that's such that it might cause a lot of problems and that's what i'm

head injury oh time will tell in terms of what the impact of head injury is going to be um no one

actually knows for certain there's definitely elements of um you know that contact to the

head's going to have an adverse effect on your body like many other things but how that impacts

individuals and how that all works within the ecosystem of someone's actual life um you know

i think time will tell on that and hopefully we can get a clearer understanding and that might be

the actual thing that you know tips it in the right direction and i think that's what's going to

right or the wrong way um but until that point it's everyone's own decision everyone's body and

everyone's way um of going about their lives there's plenty of risk out there and risk

usually leads to fun being had you know to a certain extent um if you don't take any risk

you're sitting in your house in a bubble yeah but parents made the decision when the kids are young

so your parents made a decision about you you're going to play footy because that's what your dad

did and you're part of the manly scene blah blah blah um but your if let's say your mom said

hey what's your dad's name what's your dad's name what's your dad's name what's your dad's name

he said to your dad in relation to michael with you listen i don't want him to grab um you know

brain damage yeah he's going to play afl he's going to play soccer well afl's not a clear

i understand that soccer they can't hit her anymore so that but they sort of afl promoted

as being less contact but by the way this is just as many concussions in afl there's a rugby league

but let's just let's just hypothetical hypothetical mom says oh it's

mom says we're going to he's going to play soccer school's got soccer you would never have got to

where you got to in rugby union obviously because you start off for soccer and you become part of

the soccer thing you might play for australia in the in the i've got two left feet so it's

probably fair you might not have played definitely definitely not so um so and therefore rugby union

would have missed out on michael looper which means they missed out on a player a good player

you know an australian player which means they've got less resources to excel

so therefore i think both for rugby league and for rugby union to a lesser extent afl that all this

discussion about concussion and by the way it's very important don't get me wrong very yeah it is

could be an existential threat to the game relative to australia how we play how we recruit

and how we play the game compared to say say argentina or say compared to ireland if it's

not as big an issue and i don't know if it is as big as an issue in those countries but i think it's

as big as an issue in those countries but i think it's as big as an issue in those countries but i think

those countries what we see here and the more the media gets onto it the media is making a big thing

of it at the moment like it's become the latest and greatest discussion i mean i you know and i

see some neurologists now are starting to talk about it about uh you know cte and all these

sorts of things um but at the same time you've got to the game's got is an aggressive game it's

a contact game you gotta have that because the audience loved that it's an arena it is like this

it is putting gladiators in the game it's a contact game it's a contact game it's a contact

in a room for me watching rugby union i love rugby union when like that's tough forwards are

really just bashing each other it's because you know it's vicarious it's not me doing it it's

watching them do it i get pleasure out of that sounds ridiculous i don't know what it is but i

do how do you balance this stuff up what are you gonna what do you say what would you be saying

because you're you're just fresh out of the game i i think the thing i can see you got a few

injuries i'm looking at your your

left your right here here that's just like it's definitely cauliflower the right the right one's

about the same left one you got a few scars at the top of your head you got a nice cross on the top

of your head like it looks like um like someone's gone like that swashbuckling uh pioneer or what

do we call them the eyebrows have copped it mate they're gonna be rolled over soon the eyebrows

are stuff you get a few scars going down your your i suppose um you know you'll be in the midst of it

what do you think about the existential threat for to the game that you love the game that i love uh

yeah it's

it's a real challenge i think that the steps that are being taken are really important the

management of head knocks has been even in my short time you know in the last 15 years has

changed remarkably and that's that's fantastic the the idea that if someone gets a head knock

that it's not frowned upon that they go hey like i'm not right and to really be supported through

that process to get them back on the field that they're not having repetitive um injuries or

brain injuries i think that's um that's really important um i think there's got to be

objective um measures done on the impacts and ongoing um how you do that is going to be the

challenge um because you can't get any of the results until someone's post-mortem a lot of the

time right that's the cg for sure yeah yeah for that sort of thing so you know until that point

you know how can you can how can you manage um you know they've brought out mouthguards that um

test can cut oh well um impacts yeah the mouthguards they're they're um they measure

every impact yes and in a sense got a little bit of a chance to do that so i think that's going to be

and sends it back to a control center which again is a is not perfect yet because what might affect

you um may not affect me or what affects me might not affect you so how does the threshold become

safe but they can build up baselines for you okay and they can say okay um michael got knocked out

and he was sick for three weeks vomiting with you know migraine headaches as a result of this level

of impact yeah okay mark got hit the same level of impact but it didn't have the same effect on

mark um therefore for michael um

we've got to watch when he trains next time he gets hit like that we've got to pull him aside

and say okay you're not playing this weekend so really lean on data there yeah it's data driven

yeah and you've got to build up that it's not a universal data but it's data a relation to

yourself for individuals and i think that's great look i'm i'm all for it by the way i'm not against

it i'm all for modernizing the game i'm trying i don't want to kill the game but modernize the

game around the contact because this game your game the rugby league game is about to happen

contact yeah it's not about guys making breaks it's about we love the contact we want to see

clean contact yeah you want to see clean contact otherwise you go watch ufc which again is like a

product to go see it for a certain reason yeah but you want to see someone gets you know smashed

in union or league cleanly dominated yes that's like and that's great that's the feeling you want

like the one yeah that we've we've talked about it a bit but that hits not the one you want to

see the one in origin so you want to see a clean one um because then everyone's back up they're

feet you've got 14 or 13 or 15 players still on the field um and the contest goes on and then that

just then it becomes the back and forth like we saw in the the third origin so um yeah it's of

course it's going to be a threat and it should be a threat and hopefully like threat to anything and

you can tell me because you know of your time through business and everything that you've done

but challenges hopefully then you sharpen the knife or sharpen the sword and it becomes a

better product a cleaner product a safer but without you uh losing its core and and

then talking about well what's the perception or what's the um the sentiment around this well

don't shy away from the fact that these are contact sports they're a contact sport that's why

guys and girls like playing it that's the element of it um and within there there's some risk and

we're working our best to make that safe but there is risk and you know like you jump in a car

you're you're playing on the field knowingly of some of that risk because it's interesting

you know i've been reflecting on this for a while now and um i think

it's interesting that rugby league has actually has actually i don't know if they did it on

purpose but it has adapted to this process of what public opinion is and rugby league has become

which is why we're getting a lot more islander players playing the game or fit into the game a

lot better so if you go back 25 30 years ago um or even back further it was just big tough guys

you know slogging it out against each other there was nowhere near the athleticism that we have

but a lot of the islander boys they're big tall fellows they're strong they're very athletic

they can sort of run fast they can sidestep they can pass a ball they got great eye hand

coordination um and the game is sort of adapted to suit them because it's gone away from that

that heavy duty clash which is sort of so now i think the spectator's more interested and somehow

i don't know who's done it but somehow we've been sort of pushed around to be more interested in the

game and what this particularly great athlete can do once he or she gets outside a player

or can put a ball on the inside like beautiful soft hands into another play going through a gap

you know that's an esco type player those sorts of guys do you think is rugby union starting to

move into that watching the the beautiful player as opposed to beautiful game you know the beautiful

player like you know like it is the josephs who are these like wonderful athletes who can just

as opposed to the tough bastards like you and and those guys who are jamming up the front all the

time and just getting belted left right and center is that the future rugby union as a spectator sport

well i don't think so i think and i hope not and the reason i hope not is that rugby fits in the

short fat stubby guy and an israel falau into the game and as and that's the really difficult thing

with um you know the argument of the end of the game is that the end of the game is the end of the

entertainment side of things and you know um uh what the game of rugby is because yes scrums you

know i've sat on the side of a lot of scrums and it's boring to be on the field when you've got a

lot of repacks and there's 10 minutes which is an eighth of the game that's spent on repacking a

scrum yeah that's not a great product or there's line outs and they're confusing around what the

what the um you know penalties blown for because it's a lot of the time left to interpretation

but within that you're fitting different athletes who are really critical and so you

know if israel falau sueli you know wendell come back and lottie come back all fit them in the

same back line but if their scrum sucks they're gonna have a really tough day at the office i

don't care who you are if you're sitting out there doing nothing and that you know lends itself to

the next thing and that's you know what we took what are probably a threat of um you know all the

codes in australia are but you know when rugby union isn't doing well is it's not fast enough

it's not much there's not enough ball in play time so you know test rugby 30 to 40 minutes 40

a lot of ball in play rugby time whereas league averages over 50 minutes i believe or something

around that number so in terms of actually action happening on the field there's a lot but i remember

playing in a game it was a test series against um i think it was the french back in 2014. we we beat

them well in the first uh test in the second test i think we might have won nine six and not not a

try scored in the game so three penalties for us two for them we win and um the papers the next

morning are going media morning the next morning are going media morning the next morning are going media

the media are going this is that what a shocking game what a boring outing for both teams for a

spectator for a spectator everything like that and yeah okay i can sympathize in the uk it was what an

arm wrestle you know what what an absolute physical so that's australian media talking

about australian media um comparatively to the uk the uk i remember because someone sent me going

you know and i saw the article i'm like oh geez that can be and i'm not having a crack at

australian media but what we've got here is three codes playing consecutively

across the course of the weekend and if you have a game like that and then you see a rugby league or

an afl game with over 100 points and league you know a lot of tries scored that oh god like there

wasn't even a try scored in this game and it can be an easy right can't it that you know this game's

boring could that could that be an explanation therefore why you know england ireland and wales

they've become much better relative to australia because the the style of the game and the the

um dynamics of the game are much more acceptable over there than they are here because you know

like you say like you can watch a fast-moving rugby league game here you can watch an afl game

back and forth like just literally up and down the field all day um then you know they'll run

all around 20 everyone runs 20 odd kilometers a game so there's lots of movement do you think

that might be a reason why we're not as popular in rugby union terms for audiences and for

recruitment as say the uk france ireland particularly ireland is well i mean it's

there's less codes over there yeah that's what i'm saying less to choose from you're less to

choose from therefore that you as a result being less to choose from you're much more patient as

as an audience and media you're much more patient in terms of what you um of what you're prepared to

allow to happen in the game because you're not saying hang on we can go down the road and watch

the game of afl because it's really quick and i can watch it and i'm you know because all of us

have got adhd all audiences these days because we've got so many things going on we've got

instagram this going on whatsapp going on conversation we're there at the game we're

going to their friends you know like we're all sort of uh on it the whole time so do you think

that uh australia is suffering because we're too many choices in relative australian rugby yeah

yeah i mean i think that you know steve i think went pretty hard when he was here steve hoy was

that yeah and look i think there's been a range of reasons why we haven't we mate there's been a

couple of things that happened we were very successful late 90s or early 90s late 90s early

and since then a lot of teams have caught up caught up to australia new zealand england really

um through that time so it's now teams one to ten in world rugby are really solid

so we we've gone through this sort of patch of winning 50 50 odd percent um you know in

international and i think you know steve talking about the super rugby teams i think

that balance of the amount of rugby teams um so you get more players playing together the

the times that i was playing my best rugby was when i was in risk or jeopardy of losing my

position oh really yeah it's like you know that's what you need within um i mean you could say that

in any any sport so did we get too thin across that period i don't know um but i think you know

if you're having a forward looking looking focus is which is what we need to do in rugby in the

country but uh unfortunately the melbourne rebels are now no longer but you've all that team's been

dispersed now to all the other teams so it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a

so now you've got a closer um i guess you've got more competition for less spots um which

in my opinion can only create um you know a good outcome so i think we'll see next year some of

the super rugby teams doing really really well because you've just the push it's not it's a

compounding effect like you know it's not a one plus one or it's you and me going for the same

position it's okay we're going for the same position it's not oh we're a little bit better

we'll both get a lot better and i think that's what we're going to see happen

so if if that's interesting you say about the melbourne so you're saying less teams is actually

better well i'm saying the right amount of teams okay right amount of teams yeah i'm not saying

less is better yeah because then you'd say one team's good but i don't think that's that's what

we'd want so no and is it and do you think it's important that um we play we have in super rugby

we have teams coming out of rugby cities or rugby states as opposed to trying to you know jam

something into melbourne which is not really a rugby union place i'm actually interested

in your opinion on this because we are a country flooded with um different options um you know

so in terms of a business thing do you stick to where you're strong do you try and spread you

know australia thinks you uh you know um australian rugby or we've tried so long to

capture the west and it's bloody hard to capture the west you know i mean afl's done well to get

get in there with gws um but you know certainly rugby league string you know has a good stranglehold

in that area so you know you potentially you go out broad um or you go outside and do you lose

where you're strong um and i'm not saying we've done that or that's what's happening or should

happen but there's almost a question tv drives it tv does drive it it's like so like um so audiences

in melbourne are important to broadcasters because broadcasts say i just want to broadcast in sydney

i'm broadcasting something on my on um at prime time i need to be able to collect the melbourne

audience like rugby league for example is a good example um you know they they want to have

you'll watch rugby league if you look at the way the draw goes for friday night games you get a lot

of brisbane games because brisbane play a lot of nights on friday nights because queenslanders love

rugby league and they are they really um the really good patrons of the game on television

so that drives a lot more eyeballs onto the tv show on friday nights which means a lot more

advertising so the broadcaster does much better so i can understand the dough comes from the

broadcaster for all the most of these games for rugby league rugby league afl review of course

so you've got to sort of try and win over the broadcaster in terms of the money they're going

to give you broadcast rights so you've got sort of they sort of nearly insist on having a victorian

team so that you can get people in victoria watching the game i sort of understand that

part but i equally i agree with what you're saying too though um well i think you're saying um was

more a question to me i think but should we just concentrate on the territory we are in already

and be really good at that own it because the moment you start looking at another territory

like victoria you're going to lose some of your attention to where you've already been good at and

the moment you do that someone's going to come and try and cut your lunch and try and get it

underneath you which is what the afl has been doing they're they're just they're i don't know

they've got bigger checkbook they've just been better than everyone at it and they're everywhere

they're in the schools or in new south wales they're out the west of sydney now

they they they're very good at uh building the narrative that we're like it's less dangerous

it's less contact but there's just as many head injuries well you're actually getting tackled from

so the good thing with rugby league and union is it's up and down i know where you're bracing

yeah you're you're next you're getting prepared unless you're getting a which we've all had a

good shot from the side someone just makes a great read and you don't see it coming they're

the horrible ones but that would happen a lot in afl you get tackled from behind or you're going

you're playing low you get you see a lot of the ones that get their head on hips when they're

challenging for the ball on the ground so again it's a you're still crossing a white line

with contact sport there's a risk there but yeah to your point um i'd love to know what the answer

would be um for all the codes and i and i often wonder with the rugby league rugby union thing i

mean i think there's totally a place where they can feed off each other um you know you can a

marquee is a marquee mark going to come back to rugby union and is a sueli you're going to go back

to league and um you know can there ever be a a game where there's a cross code game or run off

the back of each other you know i think there's totally an environment where you know more eyeballs

you utilize both of them in the right way that suits i mean right now the currently it's it's

it's a it's a boxing it's a 12-round boxing match where it's you know rugby league versus rugby

union but i think it's one of those ones where code you know they can coexist and bounce off

each other basically that fills in enemy uses what you're saying i didn't say that but yes yes you

did so so uh uh you're involved with uh recovery yeah what what you're an ambassador for him what

what's your deal with yeah i was initially investor and then as i'm starting to

work out what the next chapter is yeah i'm doing some work as their health

high performance and wellness so explain recovery uh recovery is is two things first

first of all it's a couple things now tell us how it's built first if someone wants to go

rcv ri rcv ri recovery yeah so it was recovery we rebranded for a couple reasons um due to patents

in the u.s but um yeah uh it's uh retail um for high performance and wellness so sauna ice bath

you know compression float tanks hyperbaric chamber some reoxy machines which help with vo2

um so a right a range of um services there that uh you know as i started in kuji with steven hoyles

in 2019 and since going to cronulla manly and soon to be in the cbd um just off martin place there and

and the u.s and toronto so i think is it la isn't it la aren't you going isn't stevie on la or yeah

hamosa beach so opening in hausa beach next year right next year right and uh and uh

who's behind it now i mean who's behind recovery the the business itself so the three founders uh

steve hoyles uh nick bardetta and trevor fowlson and trevor fowlson being the uh trevor fowlson

from investable yes so he's got a fund yes and uh he's a mad ramblin supporter isn't he isn't

he around we support it he's he's originally through the through um queensland but yeah he's

been here for he's part of the randwick mafia now yeah right and uh and i i noticed that

there's a strong franchise in the one in kuji yes is that part of the randwick mafia now

is it is is is the idea to get um a pilates which is the strong franchise a pilates type

business as part of the recovery system so in other words and you can go and do a pilates class

and walk straight into the recovery is is that part of what's going on there is that the thinking

so two different models so um strong's uh franchise based yep um but that was uh f45

um that steven managed and managed for years and have now changed to strong

right

so but that's not the intention with every site um you know i think the the other side of things

that that recovery is doing is a powered by recovery so we've got a mobile unit um that'll

go around to certain events yes cold bath yeah cold bath sauna so that hopefully going over to

mobile mobile unit so oh wow put that on a bag of a trailer yeah yeah yeah so that'll be that'll

be interesting and then um a lot of buildings with their end of trip facilities um wanting

wanting to give their employees wellness um so we can come in and consult and and do some bespoke

for for business um

and we've actually put one in in strong pilates up in up in queensland as well so

um that's great and we've just launched a hydration product as well so it's a drink

obviously yeah yeah sachet at the moment and soon to be a ready to drink as in um

as in sodium potassium and magnesium is that we're talking about yeah any sugar in it

no sugar man good man yeah i'm i'm glad about that because uh that that's important um just

having those three um salts to to because hydration is such a big deal especially if i'm gonna go sit in one of those um -...

Hydration is such a big deal, especially if I'm going to go and sit in one of your infrared

saunas and I'm going to walk out dehydrated.

So I've tried the one at Koji.

Well, he invited me and my son up there.

We went up there and I'm never sure whether I should go infrared water second or should

I go the cold plunge and go to the infrared?

What's your go-to?

Well, I mean, the traditional.

So we try and do the traditional.

What is it?

Infrared.

So you warm up first.

So, I mean, well, it depends what you want to get out of it, right?

So I think the morning, like a lot of people like to finish on cold.

So do your hot and then finish on cold.

But what we see is, you know, within the half an hour or hour slots is people go hot

to cold, hot to cold, or, you know, a lot of, I think, you know, my mom and my wife

included like to finish on hot because they don't want to come out of there freezing.

Because, you know, it's funny because I went, we went hot, cold.

No.

We went cold, hot, and cold.

You went the pain first, straight into the cold.

Yeah, because my son's like, I can't just get in, Dad.

So we got in and, but I actually felt a bit cold for a couple more hours.

It took me, because I'm old, like it took me a bit of time, my blood to get back

into my system.

But I felt amazing.

Like I felt like I just slept for 10 hours.

My body felt really good, like really good.

Yeah.

And I was only in the water for maybe, I don't know, three,

four minutes.

Does that be about right?

Yeah, good here.

Yeah, yeah.

And my hand, I couldn't put my hands in because I got bad arthritis in my thumbs.

And I could really feel it when I put my hands in.

So I actually had a little bit girly.

Not to say girls do this, but I was being a big girl.

I had my hand out of the water, just sort of above the water, I should say.

But I had the rest of my body in it.

And I think, you know, what's amazing for me is that all of a sudden there are certain

people in this world, and in particular in our country, people I'm talking to have become

so much more aware of the importance of these sorts of testing yourself, pushing yourself

to do something you actually don't really feel like doing, like getting in a cold plunge.

I think it was three or four degrees.

Would that be about right?

Yeah.

Yeah, three or four degrees water.

I mean, just the thought of it and how it's good for your mentality.

I actually felt, I don't know, I'm not your, you know, town crier for recovery.

You're not spooking it, but thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm not getting paid anything by recovery.

This is the reality of whether it was recovery's cold plunge or anyone else's cold plunge.

Well, so much so, I bought myself one.

So I bought a cold plunge.

Awesome.

So the feeling that I get from it was amazing.

Like my mental feeling, physically, I felt pretty good.

I don't know if it really took away my arthritis or inflammation.

It did for a short period of time for sure.

But I got a mental clarity out of it, the cold mostly.

I felt amazing.

The infrared source, the infrared source, the infrared source, the infrared source,

infrared sauna, I think for me is better physically. It's really good for me physically.

It makes me feel quite better the next day. I sleep better that night and I feel better the

next day. But the cold has got to, it gives me a mental clarity. What do you get from it?

Yeah, no, that's, I mean, I hated it for the majority of my career. Towards the back end,

I go, okay, well, not that I finish old or anything like that in terms of a rugby player,

but I needed to start, if I wanted to train how I wanted to play and I wanted to be consistent

on the field, then I felt like I needed to start upping that. And so, I mean, there was certainly,

you know, it's good for your inflammation. It gives you that, you know, a bit of a

physiology boost. Like when you get out, the endorphins seem to kick. But yeah,

I think that what you're saying, you know, you're like, oh yeah, like in a weird way.

It's weird. I can't explain.

I did that. I did that. Yeah. Got it. Feel good. You feel part. So, I mean, ideally,

like if you can have, particularly you've got your own, but cold in the morning because your

body's heating up and so your body's cool overnight, let you sleep and your

body starts heating up as the day goes on. So, you want to sort of get in the cold in the morning

and allow it to heat up. And I mean, don't just jump in the cold and then, you know, sit down for

ages, do some movement after, go for a walk, get the body moving, the muscles moving, and should

just feel electric for a couple of hours. And that's proven, you know, I think one of the things

with COVID is people, you know, really started to look at the longevity side of things and what

can they do aside from, you know, once they get back out there to make them feel better and,

you know, stay healthy. And then,

sauna at night's great. So, it will heat you up, but your body's going through this pattern of

where you're starting to cool down and get ready for sleep. So, it almost spikes that feeling and

that sensation. And, you know, when you sweat, again, releases endorphins, gets your toxins out,

everything like that. So, yeah, that sort of, you can definitely do them complimentary because

it gives you that shock and that change. But yeah, if you had to choose one either side of the day,

you'd go with that. And did you ever think, would you ever thought yourself if you go back

to 1920, 12, 13 years ago, 1920, that you would be having this conversation talking about cold plunge,

not because, you know, you would have done ice baths for training or after games, stuff like that,

but post-career that you'd be talking about infrared saunas and ice baths or cold plunge

for mental recovery, physical recovery outside of footy?

No. I'd go for a surf. I'll go hang out with my mates. I'll play some PlayStation.

Yeah. A few too many beers, you know. Yeah. No, I've got a sauna in my backyard. So, yeah, I mean,

not only is it a good place to feel good and everything, but we've got two young kids. So,

me and my wife jump in there at the end of the day and just have a debrief on the shit that they give

us, you know, after they finally get put down at night. So, no, there's some great benefit to it.

And just finally, I mean, because you're in this game now, how often, to get the proper health

benefits out of a sauna, how...

Let's call it an infrared sauna for the moment. How many times a week do you need to do it right

now? For how long? What is the sort of recommended period?

Well, I mean, there's a couple of different ways to look at it. So, there's, you know,

your humans of the world give out great information on that. And they're the standard on,

he does a lot around, you know, that sort of stuff. So, there's different ways to do it. So,

to do it, you know, less, but you do a bigger hit.

So, is that like 30 minutes or 40 minutes?

Yeah, yeah. But you can almost, you can do like a 20 minute, have a little rinse,

go back in, do another 20 minutes, have a rinse and, you know, finish off or,

you know, shorter, whatever time works. Or do, you can do 15 minutes a day daily,

but your body does pick up a little bit of a resilience, but it gets used to...

Tolerance.

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Tolerance. Perfect. Yeah. So, I think in terms of an ice bath,

and this is again, a human, and I'm probably going to get this wrong and, you know, people

can say that, but it's like a total of 12 minutes a week. And that'll give you that,

that's your minimum effective dose of cold bath. So, if you're doing cold, and the cold

thing's interesting, like it seems that with recovery facilities, guys like to get it really

cold because it's the test, but it doesn't, it needs to be cold enough that you get a shock when

you jump into it. You get that... It doesn't need to be three degrees.

It doesn't need to be three degrees, but what we've seen and what, you know,

being in a footy team, when you get it really cold, guys are like, you know...

Yeah, man up. Yeah. So, yeah, it's three degrees. You can go and tell everyone it's three

degrees.

You know, there's that part of it, but no, it's just getting that sort of... And you can get that

cold shower and, you know, going in the ocean at certain times of the year, that'll give you that

effect. But yeah, 12 minutes across the course of a week should do you.

And finally, just on hyperbaric, just explain, what does hyperbaric chamber, I mean,

it's, you know, explain what we're talking about here.

So, you put yourself into a high oxygenated environment.

So, just explain what it looks like in a minute.

Well, the ones that we have in our facilities, and they can look different, but

we have, I mean, mate, it's like sitting in, it's sitting in this chair effectively that you can

recline in, but it's a little dome around you. And you can have a little desk.

Yeah, enclosed. So, you know, you shut this thing, you put a sort of a bar over the top and you

press start and it just starts filling with oxygen. It's kind of like, feels like you're

going up in a plane. So, your ears will pop. It feels it to, yeah, like a fully oxygenated

environment and the purpose and the pressure goes up like it would in a plane.

The point of it is to oxygenate your blood more than you would in, you know, normal day to day.

And that just improves getting that part or red blood cells to different parts of the body more.

Which carry the oxygen.

Which carry the oxygen more. So, really good for chronic injury, really good for sleep.

I used it a fair bit. I had some calf and Achilles tendon issues. So, I was in there

two to three times a week to try and speed up that recovery process. Really good for post-surgery.

So, yeah, big and big.

It's a good study in Japan and some good study in Japan, like, yeah, that type of environment.

So, yeah, it's, it's, it's, that's a really, really popular product.

Well, I'm not going to buy a hyperbaric chamber, but I've been thinking about it, to be honest

with you. I don't know if they're expensive or I wouldn't have a clue, but I have been

thinking about it because like, you know, when you had a minor injury, I got a million

injuries that I accumulated over many, many years.

A body well used plane.

Yeah, a body well used. Well lived in Britain that way. But I'm, I want to say thank you,

um, legend and you are a legend. Thanks very much for coming into the show today and, um,

all the best with the recovery. And, uh, and, uh, are you going to take over when Hoyles

goes to America? We've announced that he's, he's a Randwick coach, by the way.

No, he's gone. He's gone.

He's gone?

Yeah.

He's gone?

Yeah.

Oh, good. Because I didn't want to get him in trouble.

No, no. No, he's over there.

Are you going to go, but are you going to take over Randwick?

I'm not taking over Randwick. No, no. I'll be, uh, I'll be staying in my lane. Um, they're

going to go and be spreading the, you know, doing their rugby thing and spreading the love, uh,

over there.

In, um, in America and opening up, um, the Toronto and LA facilities. But, uh, yeah,

very much. It's a great thing about the rugby community. Great thing about when you, you

know, are thinking about transitioning and what that sort of is going to look like post

a career or whether that, you know, I am in post career moment at the moment, but, um,

yeah, you, you get a great network, a great bunch of people that are willing to help if

you ask and, and, uh, happy to keep you involved. So.

That's true, by the way, the rugby union community is very tight.

Yeah. Yeah. I think sport community is in general. Um,

been involved with a few things post, post career that, you know, um, athletes and,

you know, businessmen and, you know, whatever you all have transitions in life. And I think

if you're willing to ask for a bit of help and how that looks and keep an open mind,

like we talk about with, you know, your Suwalees of the world on the rugby pitch and it's, um,

you know, good things can happen. Michael Huber. Thanks very much. I really,

I really appreciate this. Thank you.

Not all that long ago, money was simple. You earned it,

save some, spend some, and maybe invested in a house. If you were lucky, no apps,

no online banking, no thinking beyond what was in your wallet, but times have changed in today's

money market growth can come in many ways. And the way we think about cash is continuously evolving

enter Australia's highest rated crypto exchange, SwiftX, whether you are just starting to explore

the crypto market or are already deep in the game, SwiftX makes it easy to acquire,

sell and trade digital assets,

all in one place. So if you're someone who's thought about dipping your toes in the crypto

market, but isn't sure where to start, this might be for you. Visit swiftx.app forward slash

Mark Boris to check it out. If you've been listening along for a while, you'll know I'm

all about staying sharp physically and mentally. As I get older, staying on top of my game means

being smarter with how I support my body and mind day in, day out. One product I've already,

added to my routine from the bulk nutrients range is their NMN Extend. It's a science-backed blend of

10 powerful ingredients, including NMN, resveratrol and hyaluronic acid. Now this is designed to

support everything from energy and muscle recovery to skin hydration, joint health,

and even mental clarity. And by the way, I need all those. Whether I'm powering through a busy

week or just investing in my long-term health, NMN Extend helped me stay ready for whatever's

next.

And believe me, it tastes pretty good too. Head to bulknutrients.com.au

and see why NMN Extend might be the edge you've just been looking for.