181 Angus Taylor The Shadow Treasurers Plan For Australias Future Economy

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Thank you, Stella. Welcome to Straight Talk, mate.

Great to be with you, mate.

Well, now, you are the shadow.

Treasurer.

Big election coming up.

But most people, a lot of people don't know who you are because, you know, the treasurer gets all the oxygen out of the system, you know, the current treasurer.

And he's actually not a bad performer when you think about it in that sense.

He's very good at sucking the oxygen out of the system.

Actually, so much so, I think he's even leaving his prime minister looking a little bit gasping for air from time to time.

I need to know, and I think our voters need to know, a story about you.

We don't know much about you.

And when I was reading the brief,

I got quite surprised.

I went, wow, this guy's not just a politician.

And I think that's an important point for an election because we aren't, I think Australians don't want to vote for just politicians.

So we need to know about your story.

So take me back.

Where the hell did you grow up?

What's your deal?

Yeah.

Well, look, I'm a recent comer to politics relative to many in the parliament, particularly on the other side.

So it hasn't been a political career?

No, not at all.

In fact, quite the opposite.

So I grew up on a family farm, a little town called Nimitabelle.

At the time, it was about 400 people.

Sawmilling town, south of Cooma in the Snowy Mountains.

So New South Wales?

New South Wales, southeast of New South Wales.

Tiny little town, cold high, pretty bleak, but very beautiful place in my view.

Sheep and cattle.

And my family had farmed there for a number of generations.

And my dad and mum met down in that area.

Although they...

They were both, they were both, he was the first in his family to go off to uni and that's where he met mum.

And part of a family with four boys and it was a typical farming family.

You know, business and family are the same thing when you're a farming family.

It's like any small business.

Yeah, everything bleeds into each other.

Everything bleeds into each other.

And, you know, we'd be from very young age.

We all learned to ride a horse.

It's rough country.

So most of the stock work back in those days was done on horseback.

In fact, pretty much all of it.

And so the first thing we'd learn to do is ride a horse.

And we'd spend days and days on end sitting on a horse, chasing mobs of sheep and cattle around the place.

And with other blokes, mostly, there were occasionally women who worked on the place as well.

You didn't always learn the Queen's English as it was then from these people.

But you learn a lot about life.

And, you know, those days for me were completely formative.

Sitting around the kitchen table talking about the farm, what we're doing, which mob of sheep we're going to move where, what prices we're looking like, what the weather was doing, whether there was enough feed.

I mean, it just is all consuming, Mark.

And fundamentals.

Absolute fundamentals.

I mean, you know, you watched animals die in front of you.

You have to kill them because, you know, there's a problem and you have to put them out of their misery.

And these are really formative things, I think, which I realize are very different about my background.

Than others, that it's, you know, at the sharp end of a small business, you know, fighting the weather, the prices.

And often, frankly, my family felt like they were fighting much bigger forces that they couldn't control.

Government, big businesses.

And I think that's how a lot of small business people feel all the time.

So that was the heart of my upbringing.

I think it came to a head in the early 80s when we were carrying quite a lot of stuff.

Quite a lot of debt.

And it was a really terrible drought right across the east coast of Australia in the early 80s.

And that was a very tough time.

But we got through.

And like other farming families, you're resilient.

You fight your way through and you get there.

And so, for me, that was the most formative part of my upbringing.

A very loving family.

Close, very loyal family.

My three brothers today, we're still very close.

Where do you sit in the…

I'm third.

Third out of four.

We're all pretty close in age.

So, you know, we play a lot of sports.

We played a lot of sport growing up against each other.

And who's your footy team?

Well, back in…

These days, it's Canberra.

Of course, the Raiders weren't around.

Or the Brumbies.

No, that's true.

They weren't around in those days.

Yep.

So, we all had different teams.

But then when Canberra turned up, we…

And you're a state of…

New South Wales state of origin supporter.

Yeah, of course.

And do you like your rugby league or rugby?

Well, look, I grew up in my early years playing for Nimitabelle Public School, rugby league.

Yep.

And then switched as I got older to rugby.

Yes.

And I think it's important.

Like, I'd like to understand, because I didn't grow up in a farming family,

although my dad was a farmer in Greece.

But when he came to Australia, he was a factory worker.

But I'd like to understand a little bit more about the dynamics in a family.

Well, maybe you could explain a bit more.

The dynamics of a farming family when things get tough.

Like, if you went through that drought period,

I remember when we had recessions in Australia.

We had a recession in 82.

I remember when I was 74, we had a recession.

My dad always lost his…

Sort of lost his job whenever there was a recession on, which is normal.

What happens…

And I know what that family dynamic was like.

What was your family dynamic like, say, during a drought, when you're watching sheep die?

Sheep and cattle, I presume.

Yeah.

Die, not be able to get enough food for them.

You couldn't get enough grain or whatever it is you're feeding them.

How does a family operate?

It's cathartic.

You know, I remember that 82 drought.

And we had a similar situation, which was more driven by prices in the early 90s,

because the wool price collapsed.

And people were shooting sheep because they were being paid to do it.

Because you couldn't afford to keep the sheep.

Yeah, because there were too many.

And so the government paid you to shoot sheep.

To cull.

And it was, you know, terrible.

But the early 80s was probably the really formative one for me because I was, you know, 15, 16.

And, yeah, the place was just bare.

It was bare.

And the sheep were…

They were dying.

And it was…

I'll never forget it.

I mean, the place was covered in…

It was covered in rabbits.

For some reason, the rabbit numbers increased.

And so we'd be out and you could get a rabbit from 200 meters away because there was no grass.

Because you could see them everywhere.

But the family dynamic is interesting.

I mean, it's just stress.

Like, at the end of the day, there's this quiet stress that is not there in better times

that I think everyone in the family feels.

Because it's not like your dad or mum, whoever it is, who's the primary breadwinner,

is going off during the day and then coming back and it's a…

It's a disconnected place.

It's all around you.

You know, you walk out the back door and there's the shed and there's the cattle yards

and it's just there.

And so…

You can't avoid it.

And I knew mum and dad were carrying real stress during that time.

And I think everyone was.

It's also in the community because there's that stress for everybody.

There's a stoicism, I think, in farmers and in small business people,

which I have just massive respect for.

I see it now because there's so many small…

Small business people are struggling at the moment.

You know, people running cafes, people in the construction industry.

And I see that stoicism, which is what gets them through.

And it's an incredible strength.

But you've got to have that.

Is it a performance though?

Do you think…

I mean, and why do you think your mum and dad did it?

Like, you experienced this stoicism in the greater community.

Why do you think people do it?

I mean, I've often wondered about this.

I mean, I've been through it myself.

But I know why I did it.

But why do you think people, generally speaking, in your community,

when you were growing up, present this stoicism?

Is that an Australian thing, do you think?

I think there is something very Australian in it.

I think it's very, very clear in farming communities

because you've got lots of uncontrollable stuff coming at you.

You know, the weather, prices, government regulations,

and all of those things are coming at you.

You can't control them.

And if you spend your time thinking you can control any of this,

it'll send you crazy.

So you've got to work out how to go with the punches.

And so it's bred this incredible resilience, this incredible strength

that I see in those communities.

I feel very proud to have grown up in this little community of Nimitabal in deep

southern New South Wales because it has that kind of culture.

And I learned an enormous amount from it.

But I see it in Australians wherever I go to.

It's not restricted to any one place.

And I think it's what's given us great strength as a country.

I mean, I think that that is all part of our, you know, the Gallipoli spirit in many ways.

That's what's there.

We didn't control what was going on around us at that time.

And we celebrate this deep resilience and stoicism.

And I think it gives us great strength.

It's funny. I was just thinking, as you were saying that, I was just thinking to some extent,

Australia Day represents lots of things to me.

But, and I don't want to get too political on it, but celebrating on Australia Day, our

stoicism.

And our resilience is a really important thing to do.

Oh, yeah.

Whatever date that people decide to do it right now, it's in January.

That's the date I'm happy about.

But just having a day when we celebrate these things, these characteristics of Australians,

whether they're new Australians or someone who's been on the land for five generations,

doesn't really matter. But that common denominator between people who identify as

Australians, that stoicism, that resilience is pretty bloody important.

Yeah. And I think you asked earlier a really good question, which is, why do people do it?

Mm-hmm.

Because, you know, I see everywhere I go, all through my electorate, people going through

hard times and what keeps them going.

I think we're a deeply aspirational country.

And I think that aspiration is fuel for us.

It's fuel for Australians.

We want to get ahead.

We want to have a go.

We want to have a crack.

And we give others a go, too.

I mean, this is all part of our great spirit.

So I do feel very, very privileged to have had that as part of my upbringing.

I think it does.

And I also breed this deep loyalty and love, which is in my family, where, you know, farming

families aren't always people who express their love and affection for each other.

It's not part of the culture.

No, no, no.

But I tell you what, underneath, it's there.

And that deep sense of loyalty to your mates, to your friends, to your family, to those

who you're close to.

Loyalty being that I will always be there.

I will always be there.

You know, we'd go off to Nimitubel Public School, four boys, four brothers.

And, you know, we'd be brawling with each other when we're at home.

But I tell you what, when we got into the schoolyard, if anyone had a go at any one of us, there was

always that loyalty.

Well, Phil Gould once told me a very funny story, has a very funny saying about that.

And he was coaching Origin.

And I was sponsoring at the time.

And he said to me, he didn't say to me, he said to the group, but I was in the room when

he said it to the boys, the players.

And he basically said, the way we've got to think of ourselves is like a cat.

And on the field, the way you've got to think of yourselves as a group, if you pull the

cat's tail, you get the whole fucking cat.

Right.

And that's like a family.

That's how you're sort of describing you.

We're a cat.

We're up to all sorts of mischief.

But you pull our tail.

You get every one of us.

Yeah.

And I know that people today would say, oh, well, you know, I'm not suggesting violence,

right?

No.

I'm talking about just support.

Yeah, exactly.

And that's to me.

Yeah.

Proper loyalty in a family.

The family, you can have your arguments, but when it's on, we're all, we're a block.

I think this is really common in small business families in general.

Become a block.

You become a block.

You're working together.

You've got the shared goals.

You're walking towards your own goals as well as each other's.

And it's actually a wonderful, wonderful thing.

I mean, you understand teamwork, I think, in a way that perhaps others don't.

So how do you, and now you're in the game, apologies.

I want to go through the process, how you got there.

But now you're in politics, what happens, what do you think to yourself sometimes in

politics when you're all politicians, Labor, Liberal, Greens, blah, blah, blah.

You're all together working for the best of our country.

You must think to yourself, oh my God, what's happening here when everybody starts, let's

call it quarreling amongst each other and you say, can we just get to the number what

we're here for?

We're here to make this country better.

We're here to look after our constituents across the whole country.

Yes.

You know, we've got stuff happening all around the world.

Relative to us, do you ever sort of get to a point where you get completely exasperated

by the political process, not having been born in the political process?

Yeah, 100%.

I would say I've seen that not just in politics, I've seen that in business and in my career

before politics too.

Yeah, but that's when we're competing with each other.

Correct.

And, you know, I played a lot of team sport growing up and, you know, just described to

you that sense of team and loyalty that I've always valued.

Yeah.

I don't like it.

And I didn't come up through, you know, student politics or anything like that.

So, you know, what I've seen in politics is some incredible behaviour, the best of human

behaviour.

You also see some of the worst.

Yeah.

And that's always disappointing.

I think the thing that keeps me going is that the people I meet in this job give me hope

every single day.

Both people in the parliament, and there's good people in the parliament on both sides

of the parliament.

And people right across the country, because there are incredible people, despite the

fact that we do see bad behaviour, despite the fact that there is dysfunctional behaviour

from some at times.

The truth is there's enough good Australians trying to do the right thing that I have huge

hope for this country for the future, as we've seen in the past.

So, okay, you're at school, you've finished school.

What happens after that?

I mean, you're on the farm.

Did you go to university somewhere?

Yeah.

I went to Sydney University, as my dad had.

As I said, he was the first in his family to do that.

And he went off and he was originally doing agriculture and did vet science.

I was going to be a vet.

As in, you did ag science?

No, he started doing ag and then did vet.

And he was then a qualified vet and then went back to the farm.

Right.

But obviously used his vet skills on the farm.

So you did vet science?

Well, I was going to.

And then right at the end, I changed my mind.

And, you know, and I...

I still can't quite work out why and did economics or combined law degree, right?

And maybe I was rejecting my dad and my older brother who'd done vet science as well.

I thought, well, you know, I'm going to do something different.

So I did combined economics law at Sydney University.

Well, let me just stop you there for a second, because that's quite interesting from my point

of view, because I happen to know, because in my class at school, I was not a country

boy, grew up in the West Suburbs, but in my class at school, the...

not that many kids went to university, but probably the kid who was at the top of the

school, probably always coming first or second in most of the subjects, he got into vet science.

But as I recall, this is in 1970 or something, but as I recall, I did a commerce law degree,

but as I recall, for him to get vet science, I think they only took 30 students at Sydney.

Yeah.

It was, I think it was considered to be the toughest degree to get into at Sydney University

at the time.

Yeah, alongside medicine.

They're about the same.

Yeah.

Well, we have one other boy who did medicine, a couple did comm law, and one did vet science.

And actually, the guy who did medicine became a priest after he did medicine.

He became a doctor, but he didn't become a priest after that, anything he could dare.

But so you must have done pretty well in HGC to get into that.

Yeah, sure.

And, you know, my...

Were you a studious kid then?

Well, my parents were huge believers in the power of education.

You know, they were...

Dad was obviously a farmer, but he believed education really mattered, and my mum did

as well.

Her father was an engineer, civil engineer, New Zealander, South Island New Zealander,

who'd come over and was living in Cooma.

And, you know, they wanted us to have a university education.

They always encouraged us to learn.

I mean, mum was teaching us to read before we went to school, you know.

And so, again, I was really privileged.

To have had that, and that great love of learning and of knowledge and the power of it.

And so, yeah, went off to uni, combined law, and loved it.

You know, and there was a lot of business around our kitchen table.

There was business, there was politics, and there was farming.

And so I really loved sort of the business side of economics and law.

Were you in those days?

Were you in Phillip Street?

In the Phillip Street?

Yeah, at the law school.

Yeah, yeah.

I was, yeah, for some of the last years before they moved.

Before they moved, yeah.

Before they moved, yeah, that's right.

So, and loved it a lot.

I particularly loved the economics.

I just felt that it helped me understand the world around me and how it worked.

And I could explain what was going on.

And it really appealed to me because we'd had economics around us growing up on the farm the whole time, right?

I mean, the wool price, the meat price.

It was economics.

And so I loved it and, you know, did okay.

And managed to get a scholarship to go off to Oxford and study economics post-graduate.

Post-grad, you used to do post-grad economics, like a master's?

Yeah, master's, two-year master's.

It was sort of much of the way towards a PhD.

I didn't want to finish the PhD.

I wanted to get out into the workforce by then.

I had enough of academia.

And what did you major in in your master's degree?

So I don't know about there, but I know at UNSW where I'm, you do core subjects and then you did a thesis.

Yeah, a thesis.

Yeah, that's right.

And I did.

Well, I'd done an honours year at Sydney University, but I did my thesis at Oxford in an area called industrial organisation, which is about how industries work and businesses work.

But the thesis was on the brewing industry, the beer industry in the UK.

And Margaret Thatcher had actually said to the big brewers, you've got to sell off some of your pubs because you're doing over the UK beer drinker.

It's unfair what you're doing.

You're tying up the pubs and you're forcing a lack of business.

You're tying up the pubs and you're forcing a lack of competition in the industry.

And so she forced the big brewers to sell off pubs.

So my whole thesis was on that.

Most people doing a thesis, you know, at a place like that, no one else is interested in it because it doesn't relate to them.

But I've got to tell you, everyone was interested in my thesis because, you know, we'd all go down to the local pub, which is a big part of.

And getting ripped off.

And everyone, we were students.

We didn't have a lot of money.

So everyone felt like they were getting ripped off.

So it was a fun thing to do.

That's a very interesting thesis to have done in the wake of the ACCC.

The ACCC finding recently in relation to Coles and Woolworths.

And divestiture because it was actually a divestiture case and Margaret Thatcher had led it.

So that was.

That's a very interesting thesis to have done.

It was.

And look, it taught me.

The bigger thing is, it taught me about how industries work, how businesses make money, how they don't, what, you know, how an economy works as well.

And yeah, that was the great power of doing economics.

I think it's a really.

It's a really useful discipline to have, whether you're going to business or politics or many other, many other areas of life.

And so, you know, I loved it and then got a job at the end of my time at Oxford to go and work with McKinsey, which is a consultancy firm.

And what did you, what are the sort of things you, I mean, it's very transactional at McKinsey's, depending on who the clients are, but what are some of the things you worked on?

Well, the first project, the first big project I did at McKinsey was working down at Paul Kembler.

So there was this sense.

I'm back here in Australia at McKinsey.

Yeah.

I come, I came back to Australia.

I didn't want to work in the UK.

I wanted to come home.

I loved Australia and I'd had two great years in the UK, but, uh, two and a bit, but, um, wanted to come back.

And so I came back and I think there was a sense amongst the senior people there, you know, let's, let's get this guy to put a bit of dirt under his fingernails.

Now I come from a farming background.

I don't think I really needed that, but anyway, I certainly, uh, was thrown straight into it.

So I was on the front line of the steel mill down, you know, at Paul Kembler, right.

We, our, our office we were working out of was right in the middle of the, uh, the, the, the, the main near the slab caster, um, where the, you know, the big slabs are, are poured, uh, at the steel mill and working to make them more effective, more efficient.

Um, at a time when the steel industry in Australia was under huge pressure, there was a real risk.

It was just going to shut and go offshore.

You know, at that time it was going off to, to Japan or Korea.

Um, and so we needed to make it more competitive.

And more effective to survive.

And so I was part of a project for an extended period of time to help to, to ensure Paul Kembler survived.

And it has, and I think that work back in the early to mid nineties was, was really profound in, in, in helping a really important and iconic Australian business to survive.

So very proud to have been part of that.

I did lots of other business to work.

I probably, the, one of the others I was most proud of was, uh, when I got to partnership there was working with the New Zealand dairy industry, uh, who were again, great exporting business.

Um, that they were trying to work out where they go next.

And they ultimately formed a company called Fonterra, um, very famous company, very famous company.

So I was there working with the farmers who owned it.

This is a wonderful organization, completely owned by the farmers who like, yeah, it's a co-op.

Yeah.

And, and working with them on how, how to put Fonterra together, how to make it work, how to make it effective.

Uh, they became very close friends, these senior farmers, you know, who the board.

Was, was mostly farmers, um, uh, incredible people, wonderful people, and, uh, really privileged to be part of building what I think has become one of the iconic businesses and companies of this region.

A hundred percent, particularly in that, in that, in that environment.

So what happened after that?

What happened after McKinsey?

Yeah.

So I, I then, uh, left there, uh, partly because McKinsey is a global firm.

I loved Australia.

Australia was a bit of a backwater for a place like McKinsey.

At that time, yeah.

My, my industries were.

You know, uh, agriculture, resources, the primary industries, uh, infrastructure, um, did a lot of manufacturing work like I had at BHP with, with, um, uh, down at Paul Kembler.

And so they weren't exciting industries for a big global consulting firm.

Yeah.

Like McKinsey.

They were exciting to me.

I love them, but, but not to there.

And so I went off to a, a local Australian firm doing similar things, um, and, uh, with similar sorts of, sorts of clients to what I had been doing.

But I didn't.

I didn't answer to masters in New York or London or elsewhere, which suited me.

And it also gave me more flexibility to, to, to do other things, including the family farming business.

So I got more involved with, with some of what we were doing there.

So that gave me flexibility and I continued to work on, on, in those sorts of areas.

So most of, in the little about government that's developing in China in terms of marketing,

um, did a want to do that.

And at, and most of it led quite a bit to China.

Um, for me, I really enjoyed that.

If you've got companies that are moreライing or anything, uh, try mining service.

Yeah.

I would say that was settling down.

I mean, some means of working business.

to a mindset of just growing hard on the back of this incredible opportunity

we saw in Asia.

And I guess to square that off properly,

then you need to have quite a lot of experience in terms

of building the new infrastructure.

You've got to get the stuff out of the ground and you've got to get it

on the road and you've got to get it to a port and you've got to get it

to wherever you've got to get it to.

Exactly, a railway port and it's all got to happen together.

If any one bit is not working, then you've spent all your money

and you're not getting the outcome.

And so, you know, this is growth, right?

I mean, I love growth.

I love a growing business.

Our family farming business over the years has grown.

Fonterra was exciting because it grew.

You know, working in the mining industry in Australia was exciting

because it grew and was world leading.

I mean, these are amazing industries, absolutely fantastic.

And I think we can do much more of that here in Australia,

that world class, absolutely.

Absolutely brilliant work that Australians are more than capable

of, the really enterprise and growth oriented approach.

We need that across our economy and I think it's missing,

that enterprising spirit.

It's there in all of us.

I think it's absolutely at the heart of the Australian spirit,

that kind of aspiration and enterprise.

But I feel like over the last couple of years, we've been losing hope.

We've lost faith in ourselves.

I think it's got to a point now where people are saying,

what's the point?

Because I'm going to keep running the brick walls all the time.

You know, every time, regulatory environments, like, you know,

the regulations, the workplace environment, you know,

like it's, you know, who I can and I can't hire.

It's industrial rules, industrial relation rules.

It's very, very difficult to be aspirational.

Yeah, and it's incredibly frustrating.

I mean, this is one of the things that inspired me to go into politics.

One of the things we did when we were, you know,

putting into the Fonterra is we went to the government and said,

there's all these barriers.

Please, we need.

We need them knocked down to grow this business.

And we took away the monopoly.

We made it a competitive business and said, bring in competition, go for it.

You know, that was the mindset.

But if you're in a small business and you're being hit with regulatory barriers,

you can't go to the government and say, hey, I need this fixed or I can't grow.

You can't do that.

And not even at any point go on your local member.

Yeah, look, it's so, this is the point about stoicism.

You're just sitting there saying, I just got to take it.

But I think we can do better than this.

Do you think our stoicism has somehow worked against us in some respects?

Because, you know, like, as you're talking about farmers, you know, like, oh, it's raining,

it's going to flood or it's drought, et cetera.

Look, I can't do much about it, but I'm going to hang in there.

I'm just going to keep going.

So do you think that sort of has sort of filtered its way into people in small businesses generally?

I can't do anything about it.

I'm just going to stick with it.

Yeah, it's a double-edged sword.

On the one hand, there are people who you just say, and I don't know how you get up each morning and do what.

You're doing it when you're up against it the way you're up against it.

And it's an incredible thing that has sustained so many Australian businesses and so much of our economy over and helped us to be so successful.

The flip side is sometimes I think we don't push back and say, hang on, that's not good enough.

We can do better than this.

We need government to do better than this.

And I think at the moment the thing I see, which is very, very clear, is so many Australians just feeling like it's just too hard.

It's just, you know, I'm losing it.

People who are trying to start a business or build a business, people who are wanting to buy a home and pay off their home, it just feels like you're up against it.

Especially the younger generation.

Well, I think that's right.

I talk to a lot of people who are parents or even grandparents who run a small business and I say, so are your kids or your grandkids going to come into the small business?

Oh, no, no.

No.

And I think, you know, they'll go and get a job.

Where I live, you know, in Goulburn and where I grew up at Nimitaville now, they so often will say, no, I'm going to go into the public service.

Now, we want great people in our public service.

No question about it.

You don't want it as a default.

What's that?

You don't want it as a default.

You need people who are prepared to go out and have a crack and have a go.

And if we lose hope, I think we lose what we are.

So the number one reason for me to be in politics and to be doing what I am now is to restore that hope, to give Australians the opportunities I've had, because I feel like I have had opportunities like almost no other humans in history.

I mean, it's been unbelievable for my generation.

But if our next generation don't have that, I've got four kids, I think that would be just an atrocious outcome.

And so your entry into politics.

I don't know, but how long have you been in politics now?

Yeah, 12 years.

12 years.

So it's relatively, you would like probably in your 40s or something when you were in politics.

Yeah, 46.

In 46.

So you've entered politics in your 46.

Was it off the back of, okay, I made some money.

Maybe I've got kids, I've got a wife, I've got a house.

Now is my time to pay back.

I mean, what was the deal?

Yeah, there was a big element of that.

So you talked to your parents about it?

Yeah.

Well, so my mom died when I was quite young.

Oh, wow.

And that was another part of kind of growing up on a farm, which was, you know, that was a really big event, obviously, for my family.

But my dad had been involved in farming representation.

So he ultimately became president of the New South Wales Farmers and vice president of National Farmers.

And he was probably on a path to being president of the National Farmers Federation when mom got cancer.

And he just pulled back.

You know, this is, again, this is the tale of loyalty.

He just said.

No, all of that is secondary.

I'm not doing that now.

I'm going to focus on family.

And he did.

And she died not long afterwards.

But he was always interested in politics because it affected us.

When you're around the kitchen table on a farm, I mean, back in those days, there was a collapse in the wool price.

There was a floor price scheme for the wool price.

But what governments did, and at the time it was the Hawke government, had a huge impact on us.

And so it was around.

It was around the kitchen table.

So that's probably where I got interested in it.

And yeah, so the opportunity came up mid-40s.

Financially, I was in a, you know, reasonable position because I'd worked hard over the years leading up to that and got us to a point where I could take a risk.

And.

But how did it happen?

Well, Bill Heffernan was probably the key person who knew my family and knew me and had met my wife, who was, again, a girl from the country.

From out west of Dubbo.

And we'd met at Sydney University.

Just like your parents.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, exactly.

You know, it's just like, exactly right.

And Bill sort of said, Albie Schultz, who was the member for Hume, was retiring.

He said, you should run.

Just like that?

Yeah, that was pretty much it.

That was pretty much it.

And I threw my hat in the ring.

Obviously, I had to go through the preselection process.

All of that.

But what do you do when that happens?

When someone like Bill Heffernan sort of taps you on the shoulder and says, you know, he's obviously a bit of a legend in the Liberal Party.

Yeah.

A legend in the Liberal Party, not a bit of one.

And taps you on the shoulder, sort of effectively anointing you in some respects.

Mate, you know, I think you could do this.

Why don't you put yourself out of preselection?

What is the process of someone like Angus Tutt?

Do you go and talk to your dad?

Do you go and talk to your brothers?

Do you obviously talk to your wife?

What happens in those situations?

Because I've often wondered about that.

How someone makes a decision.

Do they make it on their own or do they make it in relation to everybody else that's around?

Yeah.

So the answer is all of the above, for me at least.

First, my wife, who was interested in politics.

So we met.

She did law and we worked together at law school in Phillip Street.

And we were both country kids.

So we had an enormous amount in common, obviously.

And she was interested in politics.

I think it wouldn't have been possible without that.

Right.

And she's always been – she's actively written on political issues.

For many years.

And so, yeah, her support was important.

And so we made the decision.

And away we went.

It was a big change of life.

Big change of life for my kids, too.

They were young at the time, my four kids.

And, you know, it's not easy for kids, the politicians, I have to say.

Especially as they get older.

Yeah, exactly.

Although they've been unbelievable.

I have to – I mean, really, I'm so proud of them.

So they're aged from 25 down to 19.

Right.

And you've got boys or girls?

Two of each.

Well, that was good.

Well done.

Your wife, well done.

Well done.

Good on her.

So you've got four kids.

Yeah.

You've decided you go into politics.

You know, obviously – I mean, one of the things I've often thought about –

I've often thought about myself.

How do you – you know, I see that Peter got a little bit of criticism

about this recently.

But how do you put yourself in a position where I'm going to go from living

in my nice, comfortable home here in Goulburn,

or wherever you were living at the time,

to spending –

Yeah.

Six months of the year in aggregate in the mothership in Canberra.

I mean, like –

Yeah.

Well, remember that I'd had work all my career where I'd been travelling.

Yeah.

That was – I could have been based anywhere.

It didn't matter.

I was travelling all the time.

And so I was used to having to make sure I got home and had family time.

And, you know, I've probably never been as good at it as I should have been.

And you always look back at being a parent and think you could have done a

better job, I think.

But I –

My kids have handled it so well, and I'm very proud that they've been able to do that.

So you're in Canberra, what I call the mothership, and you have to bump sort of shoulders.

You're basically bumping shoulders with everybody, I mean, both sides of the room.

What's it like – tell us, like, one minute you could be in the bear pit there ripping

into your opposite number, or alternatively –

Copping it from your opposite number, which happens.

Yeah.

But then it's all over, and you're walking down the aisle, and you maybe – wherever

you stay, you might be going down and have a bite at a meal, and you might bump into

Dr. Jim Chalmers.

Yeah.

Who – what happens in those situations?

Oh, you're always fellow.

I mean, I do.

Yeah.

And –

Does it get personal?

Look, I think when it – the boundary that most politicians really take exception to

is when it gets down.

Yeah.

It's a family, and certainly that's for me, and maybe this is part of my loyalty thing.

I think that's when it gets really difficult, and occasionally in politics that does happen,

and that's when you say, no, that's not – we're not – we're not –

Yeah, that's off limits.

That's not acceptable.

Outside of that, look, it's rough and tumble, you know.

That's the nature of politics.

There's an adversarial system, our political system.

Yeah, yeah.

It was designed that way from the start, and whilst lots of people think it can somehow

be different from that, that's what it is.

Yeah, you're the opposite, you mean you oppose.

Yeah.

Yeah, and opposition is tough because you are opposing, and that's your job.

You're in a negative state all the time.

That is actually your job.

You've got to be holding the government to account, because if you're not holding the

government to account, who's going to?

And the Australian people only get to hear about things that the government is doing

that perhaps they shouldn't be doing because you're prepared to voice it.

So it's a really important role in our system, but it's a tough role.

And, you know, it can't be –

Occasionally, it does get quite brutal in the pit.

But, look, I've also had very good friends across the aisle in politics, and that does happen.

I worry it happens less than it used to, Mark.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I do.

So it's not a thing where what's on the field is on the field, what's off the field is off the field?

Well, look, that's – I certainly try to keep it that way, and I guess it's partly because

I've played a lot of sport over the years.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

That's the right way to think about it.

And it's the Australian way too.

Yeah, it's the Australian way.

It's not always true that way.

I think it's become more tribal.

In my 12 years, it's definitely become more tribal.

And I don't think that's a good thing.

But that doesn't stop you having friends across the aisle.

I mean, Joel Fitzgibbon and I, for instance, you know, we do a 2GB segment every day on a Friday for years.

And, you know, we've been very close friends right throughout.

And I tell you, we'd give it to each other on that – but it was from a point of respect, and you can do that.

More debate.

Yeah, it was debate.

It's not personal.

No, exactly right.

So – because I –

You know, obviously watching this current election process as it's unfolding, and it's starting to look personal to me.

Yeah, and I've got to say –

Which I'm surprised at.

Yeah.

I didn't think – I mean, I had the Prime Minister sitting there a month ago, and I had Peter sitting there as well.

But I didn't think Albo would go that way.

But it looks like it's getting pretty personal now.

No, and I think it is.

And I don't like that.

Are we importing something?

I mean, they're importing American politics to Australia because it looks more like a presidential election to me than I've ever seen before.

Yeah.

And it looks – and, you know, this, you know, loading up Peter Dutton with the Trump thing.

Like, I mean, I know Trump.

You know, I know him.

He was – you know, he came here to Australia.

I spent time with him when the apprentice was on.

Peter's nothing like Trump.

No.

I can assure – anyone listen.

Peter Dutton is nothing like Donald Trump.

I can – I can –

I mean, maybe they're both conservatives in terms of politics, perhaps.

Yeah.

But even conservative – here, conservative is different.

Peter Dutton is nothing like Donald Trump.

He is a quiet, reserved –

Thoughtful.

Thoughtful, yeah.

Quite thoughtful person.

He's quite economical in the way he speaks.

He doesn't just throw stuff out there.

No.

And I'm not going to sort of opine on Donald Trump, but I'm just saying he's different.

Totally different.

But this labeling of you guys as Trump-like.

I find it like it's – it's like they're trying to label you with the worst aspects

of the Trump regime as it currently exists.

And it's sort of like – it's like playing a different set by a different set of rules.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just – it's nonsense.

And –

But it's very politically clever.

But the important thing for me is, you know, I went into politics because I want to fight

for the issues that I care about.

And it's all the issues we've been talking about.

It's hardworking Australians getting ahead.

Making sure that they get an opportunity to have a real crack in business, owning a

home.

And the circumstances are right for that.

We need to have lower energy prices.

We need to make sure that inflation isn't out of control.

We need to make sure that interest rates are coming down so Australians can get ahead.

Look, that's what I'm interested in.

And, you know, I worry that our politics is moving away from those key issues.

If it's getting to, you know, personal attacks.

I mean, really, I don't think anyone ultimately wins out of that.

But we are seeing some of that.

And it's unfortunate.

I think all we can do in the tradition of the Stoics when you're faced with those circumstances

is just focus on the stuff that matter marks.

And that's what I try to do every day.

That's why I'm in politics.

It's not playing political games that I'm interested in.

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So you're a shadow treasurer.

What is...

Is there, in that portfolio, does, I might just ask you, does small business,

is there a ministry for small business?

There is, and Susan Lee has that,

but obviously the economy is incredibly important to small business.

Does it come under treasury though?

Well, no, it's separate.

Separate portfolio.

But I would say a very substantial part of our focus

is on making sure the environment is right for small business to succeed.

Right, so as in the macro and the micro environment.

Exactly.

And we're talking about interest rates.

Interest rates, the cost of power, they're the two big ones.

Yeah.

I mean, particularly the cost of power.

And I noticed in the, Dutton's reply to the treasurer's budget last week,

he talked about gas reservation.

But does, and gas reservation, just for those people listening,

just means basically somehow making sure that we park some of the gas that we produce

in order to make sure that we don't pay more for it than anybody else pays for it.

Yep.

Or we're not buying from overseas.

We're not exporting it overseas and then buying it back.

So, but what actually does the Liberal Party have in mind

in terms of getting the price of electricity down?

Yeah, well, in the short term, it's exactly what you were describing.

We are one of the biggest gas exporters in the world.

Yeah, and we have great gas reserves.

We created the liquefied natural gas export business in the world.

It was us.

It was an Australian, this is another incredible story of what Australians,

have done.

We created that industry.

Qatar and the United States have followed us

and we're the three big exporters in the world.

And so, this policy is about saying, okay, we're a good exporter,

but we've got to make sure we've got enough gas here for Australians

so that we're not paying more for our energy than we should be.

And you've got to remember, of course, gas doesn't just affect the price of gas,

it affects the price of electricity.

Yeah.

Because gas is really important.

In generating electricity, it affects the price of food because it drives the fertilizer

price, which is the single biggest input into your food costs and many other things.

All the delivery costs, all the refrigeration costs, everything.

Everything.

So, driving down the price of gas is really important to making sure we've got affordable

energy and that we beat inflation in this country.

There's a simple way to do it, which is just to say there's got to be enough gas that

stays in Australia and is affordable.

Yeah.

And is for Australia.

So, Australian gas working for Australians.

As opposed to going off overseas, being liquefied and being shipped back to Australia.

Yeah.

And so, there's always a temptation for a big exporter to say, look, if I can get a price

of $20 in Japan and $10 in Australia, I'll sell it to Japan.

Well, we're saying, no, we need to make sure we've got enough here.

The exporters can make good money out of selling to their customers and we want them to do that.

That's good for our country.

But we've got to, first of all, make sure there's enough gas for Australians.

So, that's the first step.

That's the first and most important thing we can do to bring down the price.

We've got to make sure our coal-fired power stations don't leave the market before we've

got replacement.

Yep.

And over time, we've got to replace them with baseload nuclear generators.

And if we want to have industry in this country, if we want to have manufacturing data centres,

those big baseload users of power that are important to job creation and prosperity as

a country, then we've got to have baseload power.

That's traditionally been coal.

And renewables alone won't cut it.

They can play a role, don't get me wrong, but they're not alone going to be enough to be able to support that baseload industry.

And so, that's why the nuclear generators are so important.

I think a lot of listeners are not that well-versed in exactly what you're talking about.

And if I could, I might just break it down and then you can help me out here, if you don't mind.

But first and most important thing, as you said, are data centres, which, you know,

because we use everything, all our various devices all the time, particularly, you know,

with the advent of artificial intelligence, which is basically, it's not just using Shakti video,

it's artificial intelligence is everywhere.

It's on Netflix.

And Netflix is using it to tell you what you might want to watch.

So, there's artificial intelligence all around us.

But as a result of that, there's these massive data centres, which, you know,

we don't actually have any data in the cloud.

They call it cloud, but it's actually, the data's not sitting in my office,

but it's now sitting in a data centre.

But data centres need refrigeration because they're very,

very hot places and they are extraordinarily big consumers of power.

And as we build, as we become greater users of artificial intelligence,

which is important for us to be productive and better at what we do and keep up with the rest of the world,

we're going to have that much, many more data centres here or maybe overseas,

but we're definitely going to have them here as well.

Australia's a great place for data centres already.

We need enough power to power our homes, our offices,

and our data centres.

And anything else that might want to use power.

So, that's your base load.

Yep.

And if you don't have that power, they go to another country.

Yeah, and that will go somewhere else.

And also, something's going to cost us much more.

Correct.

It's going to cost us as consumers more.

So, because we're going to be importing it.

So, you need a base load.

The base load, which you're talking about is gas, but it's also coal-fired,

coal-fired powered, if they're the right words, power production for energy, for electricity.

So, that's your base load.

Now, over time, and everybody's gone bananas on this nuclear thing,

it's not going to happen next year, but it's an over time thing.

You know, nuclear is a thing you can do over time.

Yes, exactly.

But right now, we have to use what we currently got.

Yeah.

That's coal and gas.

That's right.

And renewables.

I mean, that's part of our system.

I'm definitely not ruling out renewables.

It'd be great if renewables were the thing, you know, but it's just not going to happen.

You know, energy systems.

And renewables throughout history have always worked better when they've got balance.

You've got a range of different fuel sources because, you know,

coal works particularly well for customers that are there 24-7, 365 days a year, right?

Whereas, you know, if you're only using power during the day

and you stick some solar cells on the roof, fine.

It works fine.

It depends on the customer.

The problem is if we don't have that base load power,

which is what nuclear generators give us over time,

and we need coal in the short term and gas as well,

then you lose a big part of that customer base from Australia.

They'll go overseas.

Well, what's the big deal?

Why is everyone getting all weird about it?

Like, I mean, what about this nuclear stuff?

What's the story?

Well, I think because the Labor Party has campaigned against it.

Albanese has been campaigning against it since he was, you know, a teenager.

No, but what about us voters?

I mean, like, if we understand the proposition, the thesis, and the hypothesis

that we need base power and we need power,

and we need what is these days technologically relatively safe systems,

which is happening all around the world, why are Australians against this?

Well, I think Chris Bowen and others have been telling them a story

that you can do it all with renewables alone, and you can't.

And, you know, we know this already.

We're seeing it.

I mean, just look at your electricity bills.

And, you know, here's the extraordinary thing that a lot of people don't realise

about the last three years since Labor's been in power.

There's been no material reduction in emissions in Australia.

Wow.

So here he is saying it's all going to be renewables only.

We're going to be 82% renewables in our grid in a few short years.

And, you know, he's pumping that alone.

He's making it difficult for gas, difficult for coal, certainly for nuclear.

And meanwhile, prices are going up and emissions aren't coming down.

It is not working.

It's just not working.

And that's why there's a better alternative.

He's telling them it is working.

I think Australians are switching on to this.

I think they know it's not working.

I don't understand, though, Angus, why is he so against nuclear?

I mean, I like the idea of all the alternative sources, like, you know,

solar and wind.

It's great.

All of them.

I like all of them.

And one will emerge as the one that underpins everything.

And all I'm interested in is getting power to Australians at the right price.

Exactly.

So we're not suffering.

Exactly.

We're not suffering from inflation driven by high energy input.

Yes.

Because everyone keeps saying, you know, your electricity bill at home.

It's not about that.

Sure, my electricity bill's gone up.

Everyone's electricity bill's gone up at home.

But guess what?

Every single thing you pay for that costs more money,

a big input into that extra cost is the cost of producing that thing that you're buying.

Exactly.

You know, like, you know, every service station that you buy a petrol from has got power.

Yeah.

And they have to pay the power bills.

Every television station's got power.

They have to pay the power bills.

All the power bills have gone up, not just at your home, but they've gone up, not just domestically,

they've gone up everywhere.

And we have to address this issue.

I know it's such a portfolio, but from a macroeconomic point of view,

I just do not get what the big deal is with us exploring other alternatives.

Well, I actually think a lot of Australians are where you're at,

which is that they are saying, well, we should explore these alternatives.

There is a group that you remember well from the past who have been against nuclear,

from back in the 70s, you know, when we had the nuclear disarmament party and all of that,

Peter Garra and Albanese, let's be clear, he was part of that.

He was absolutely part of that kind of movement.

Yep.

And so he's never going to change.

And Bowen is the same.

But do they have so much power?

Bowen is the same.

Does he have so much power in their party to run the show and say, hey, listen,

I've always believed in this.

I don't give a damn what's better for everybody.

Yeah, but there's people in the Labor Party.

I mean, the Australian Workers' Union, for instance, has always been pro-nuclear.

They're pro-gas.

But, you know, this is where the Labor Party's at now.

I think it's a big mistake.

They've now embraced nuclear submarines, of course, for Australia,

which, of course, means that we're going to have nuclear generators,

because that's what you've got in a nuclear submarine,

are nuclear generators, a small modular reactor in our ports

and running around our coastlines.

Well, what's the difference between having a nuclear generator in a submarine,

nuclear sub, in our port in Wollongong, wherever it happens to be,

where they're going to hang out?

And then what?

And not having one, for example, in Dubbo?

It's a great question.

And, of course, that's the question that they've never answered.

And this is what worries me, is the quality of the debate on this

from what we've seen from the government, from Albanese and his team,

I think has been atrocious.

But they're more interested in scare campaigns and politics than they are,

I think, in the real policy.

But I think we can win this debate.

I think it's incredibly important, I think, Australians,

are seeing that what the government's doing right now is not working.

And I think they're up for alternatives.

And that's what we're putting forward.

Talking about a debate, I saw Jim, Dr. Jim, put up a,

I think it was a post on X or somewhere like that,

somewhere someone said something that you won't debate him.

So if he calls for a debate, are you up for it?

No.

Look, I have offered to debate him 26 times.

In this parliament.

And he walks out of the parliament every time.

He's not interested.

Now he seems terribly interested.

Of course I will.

And we're having one next week and we'll do more.

Oh, good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Look, I'm happy to debate this bloke any time because at the end of the day,

whatever you might think about Jim Chalmers,

he's not someone who's grown up in the economy, deep in the economy,

and understood.

The pain that Australians are feeling at the front line in small businesses

as they're buying a house right now.

And I think he's disconnected from that.

I think he's out of touch.

And I think he's out of his depth.

I mean, he's come up through the political ranks as a staffer.

That's his background.

His degree was in, his PhD was in communications, not economics.

And he likes to call himself Dr. Chalmers.

I just don't think he really has an understanding.

Of what makes an economy tick.

And I'm doing this because I think we've got to make our economy work better

for Australians.

And I think we can.

But I don't think the Labor Party has understood what's needed.

So inflation and interest rates and their connectivity.

The RBA, and it's interesting we're talking today because today is,

you know, so-called Trump's Liberation Day.

His, you know, his day.

I don't know what Liberation Day means,

but it's the day that he announced his tariffs all around the world.

And of course, the Reserve Bank governor came out on Tuesday this week,

quite worried about, well, not quite worried.

She looked perplexed, I don't mean in a defeatist way,

but perplexed as to what the outcome of the tariffs globally are going to do

to Australia in particular.

It could either be deflationary or it could be go around the other way.

It could cause a recession.

It could cause any number of things since she doesn't know what to do.

Therefore, she didn't change.

She didn't change rates.

How do, and everyone knows the response of Trump if you stand up to him,

you know, because we've seen what he does.

He says, oh, I'm going to increase it to 50%.

Albanese doesn't seem to have said anything about anything.

I haven't seen anything yet in the media.

How does, and I hope he doesn't say yesterday that he would fight for Australia.

Do we run a risk of doing what happened when Scott Morrison was out,

ran and China punished us forever?

When Scott stood up and sort of blamed them for COVID or where he called for an

investigation, it wasn't that bad, but he called for investigation of China or

sort of thing or that what happened in Wuhan.

Do we run a risk that if we stand up to Trump that it could backfire?

Yeah, look, it's a great question, but I think the starting point here is as an

export oriented country, as a country that has succeeded on the back of getting

access to markets around the world for-

Very important.

Our agricultural products, for our mining products, our manufacturing products, our

services increasingly, we want to get access to markets.

It's incredibly important and we should be fighting for that every single day.

Particularly in the US market.

Yeah. And the US market is important.

It's not, I mean, the Asian market, of course, has been the big growing market for us over

the years, but it's still important.

Yeah, but Angus, if he punishes China, he punishes us.

Yeah. And look, the truth is, you know, just right near where I live, there's a big abattoir,

sells much of its meat to the-

The beef to the United States and we need those markets and we should fight for them.

The context with the United States is we are a close ally.

We have fought with them in war after war after war and we are strongly aligned.

Our people have deep chemistry and connection.

We always get on with Americans.

Sometimes they annoy us a bit and we annoy them, I'm sure, but we are close friends.

And when you are close friends, you can have frank discussions and we should be having frank discussions.

We absolutely should be.

I don't think we should be holding back in saying that this is not acceptable.

We're not going to reciprocate and impose tariffs on you, but this is not what you do to friends.

And I think it's quite right and proper that we do that.

Now, frankly, I think Albanese is frightened of his own shadow when it comes to these things,

whether it's the United States or China.

I mean, China, you know, we've got a warship off the coast of the south coast of New South Wales.

Seriously.

It's scary.

We should stand up and stand for something.

And it's true with the United States as well.

I think we should seek to be friends with this administration wherever we can, but here's

a difference and we should be strong on that.

But how would it work, Angus?

I mean, I see, according to the newspaper, he's recruited Greg Norman to go and try and

sort of do a deal, which I'd find, I'd imagine Trump would say, what the hell are you doing

here to Greg?

Like, I should be talking to the prime minister.

Yeah.

Well, Greg's a great Australian, but at the end of the day, I think part of the problem

here is the ambassador, you've got to ask questions about Kevin Rudd and whether he's

doing what needs to be done and whether Albanese is himself.

Meanwhile, Chalmers goes over there a few weeks back, gets the photo opportunity, comes

back and of course-

Nothing.

I mean, I just, I don't think they really understand how to deal with this administration,

which is to be clear.

And whether it's with China or with the United States, there's no point when you want to

have an ongoing trading relationship with somebody, and we want trading relationships

with China and with the United States, you can't kill the lily.

You've got to be straight with people and say, hey, this is acceptable and this is not.

So obviously we don't want to enter in a tariff war with them, but do you think the experience

of what happened, because with Morrison has actually made them a little bit gun-shy because

they might, because I mean, politically gun-shy, because what I mean by that is the political

fallout for Scott Morrison as a result of what China did to a lot of our farmers and

all sorts of people, I think would have been quite immense.

And I think Albanese then liked the fact that he made out that he brought that back into

normality.

He re-normalized our relationship with China by sending Penny West.

Yeah.

And he's not going to go back and forth with, you know, he was a bit wrong with what he

did, however he did it.

Is it a position that he, look, the last thing I want in this election is, before this election,

is to be making noise and have Donald Trump say something about me?

Well, yeah, if that's right, and may well be, that's a political judgment, isn't it?

That's what I mean politically.

I mean, this is the point, you're playing politics.

I mean, what we've always sought to do when it comes to foreign affairs and trade is not

get weighed down by the short-term politics.

what's right for the country in the longer term. Of course, you might pay a political price for

that in the short term, but your job, if you're leading the country, is to do what's right for

the country over time. I think the right thing right now is to be fighting for access to those

markets. Our farmers deserve it. Our manufacturers deserve it. Everyone else who exports into these

markets and other markets deserves a government that's fighting for them. We are not seeing that

and we should. Let's say that we achieve nothing. In other words, nothing happens and the tariffs

remain in place. What do you think in a prognosis sense could happen here to Australia? What are

the sorts of scenarios that maybe the Department of Treasury is sharing with you as the shadow

treasurer?

What are the sorts of things that might come up? What should we expect? Should we expect that

all of a sudden China's going to start dumping all their cars here or we're going to get deflationary

pressures because a lot of stuff's going to come here from China really cheap because they've lost

their American market, but as a result of that, they stop producing as much stuff. Therefore,

we won't be exporting as much stuff to America and as a result of that, we have a GDP problem.

What are the sorts of scenarios?

The whole point is all of those realistic scenarios, I don't think anyone knows which

one of them is going to be real.

You're right, but the one point that is clear is that we are living in a really uncertain world

and if that is the case, you've got to have an economy that is robust, that is resilient and

that is strong. If you're driving the deficit off a cliff, if you've pushed Australian household

budgets to a point where they're at breaking point, then the capacity to absorb a shock

is just not there. This is what worries me most about the position we're in. We've just seen a

budget with red ink as far as the eye can see.

At least 10 years.

$125,000 of interest and debt by the end of the next term of parliament on the current plan.

There's no plan to get our standard of living back to where it was when we were last in government

until 2030 or 2031, a complete lost decade for Australians. That's bad in its own right,

Mark. That's a problem in its own right, but what makes it worse is when you're in that position,

your capacity to absorb a shock is just not there.

I mean, people just don't have the cash to handle another shock to their standard of living.

Nor does government.

And nor does government. And that's the point. You've got no shock absorbers left in the system

and that's where this government has taken us and it's why I think they've made a series of

bad decisions without a focus on the need to rebuild to get our standard of living back to

where it should be and to prepare government for the possibility, as there always is in time.

Shocks do come along. That's the nature of...

Of the world.

Economic shocks.

Yeah, exactly. But you've got to be ready for them. And this is something, again,

perhaps it's me and my farming background, you're always got to be prepared.

But that's what farmers are always doing.

Exactly. You're always ready. You know, a drought's coming. One thing you know in a good

season is the drought's coming. One thing you know in a drought is it's going to end. But you've

got to be ready for those shocks. And they can be price shocks too. It can be all sorts of shocks,

but whatever it is, if your treasurer, if your government hasn't got you,

back on making sure we're ready for these sorts of things, then it's a problem.

So during COVID, as you know, we suffered a shock and the shock was, you know, the COVID shock,

but the shock was a drop in, well, for a short period of time anyway, there was a drop in

employment because then the government, you know, under Morrison and Frydenberg, we had those

JobCupid payments, et cetera. But a lot of the support in relation to dealing with the shock

was coming from the government coffers. It was coming out of government. It was money coming

from, you know...

Yeah.

Putting in infrastructure, but actually money going direct into businesses, giving people money.

If you're running deficits for the future, it seems to me the only tool we have left

in our artillery is either for government to give, you know, we suffer an economic shock,

is for government to give people more money or is to reduce taxes or is to reduce interest rates.

Fortunately, the Reserve Bank's done that.

They've done a great job at getting our interest rate up high. So that gives them plenty of leeway

to reduce the rates. Like if we hadn't reduced, increased the rates from 0.1 to where they are

now, we would have lost a lot of our sort of ability to rebuild the economy back through

reducing interest rates. But the big thing has always been Australia is our resource sector.

And our resource sector pulled us through the GFC. Our resource sector pulled us through a lot,

like gathered a lot of...

More taxes for the government, which, you know, more revenue as a result of many hours sold to China.

If China falls on its knees as a result of, which is what it looks like the tariffs are designed to

do. It looks like it's directly pushing towards China. It goes everywhere, but it looks like it's

picking China out. We want to reduce, this is what I think is happening. America wants to reduce

China's position. That'll affect us. If we've got no surpluses, and in fact, we're running deficits,

does that worry you?

It worries me enormously.

I think this is exactly the point. I mean, the scenario where the Chinese economy

doesn't get access to markets, it did. So it goes backwards compared to where it would have.

And we then lose an export market, not just, you know, through tariffs in the United States,

but indirectly through loss of markets to China. I think it's a very dangerous situation for us

because we're incredibly reliant on those revenues. I mean, here's the extraordinary thing. We've been

getting massive windfall.

We've been getting massive windfalls from the sale of our commodities, from iron, oil, from coal, from gas.

And the taxes on those companies.

Yeah. And they pay, you know, they pay company tax and those company tax numbers have been huge.

And this is where everything's been looking great. There's taxes raised.

Except that at the same time, we're now running massive deficits as far as the eye can see.

So we're spending that plus more.

So there's no structural balance here. This is a disaster. The windfall is all being spent and more.

And so-

So we are in a position, I think, where the risks for us are very, very high. That means a risk of,

you know, some combination of a slow economy, potentially interest rates being stickier. Who

knows? But certainly the Reserve Bank is ready for all of those scenarios. And the problem with

this is uncertainty and knowing that you're not prepared for a shock stops you investing in the

future. That's the killer. I know the future of this.

This country depends on us wanting to invest. Every single Australian, you know, wanting to

invest in buying your home, wanting to invest in your business, wanting to invest in shares that

can then take that money, companies take that money and invest themselves. If we stop being

willing to invest because we're too uncertain about the future and we lack confidence in the

future, then we won't go ahead. And that's, we've got to change that dynamic.

So can I just talk to you for a moment about, it's a bugbear of mine, but it's the green,

it's the Greens. I don't understand why and how this whole preference thing works.

Labor preferencing the Greens and the Greens preferencing Labor. Well, although I think

Albanese is on the record saying he won't preference the Greens. I think, I'm not sure

because what happens if, I mean, the polls are saying that he's not going to do very well,

but he's there, but if he has the support of the Greens, he can, he can be in a,

in a minority government. Yeah. So, so let's see.

Where's the danger in that? Well, huge danger. I mean, I think

we need decisive, strong government at a time like this.

A mandate. Government that can actually

get things done because we've got to get our budget back into shape. We've got to get

household budgets back into shape. So they're able to, to weather storms that come at us.

And, and we've got to restore hope because it's when people have hope, that's when they invest

in their future. And that's good for all of us. And that's good for all of us.

And to be able to do that, you need to have a government that's got a clear mandate,

exactly as you say. I think there is a very high risk if, if, if Labor wins the election,

inverted commas, they only do it with the help of the Greens and the Teals, some combination of,

of those. And I think that's a very dangerous looking government. I mean, the Greens

don't believe in the Australia I believe in. You know, they want, they want everything to

be taxed out of existence. They believe in much bigger government. They believe in the

government. They believe in red tape and green tape around everything. And that goes

against everything I've been talking to you about today, but that's what they'll demand

of Albanese. Um, and this is a guy who wants to stay in power and I think he'll do anything to

do it. So let's see what happens with preferencing. There's two paths to that. One, of course,

is the preferencing at the election itself. I'm sure that, that Labor and the Greens will swap

preferences. Um, and the second is what they would do if they were in minority government,

would they do it?

Deal with the Greens and what would be in that deal? Well, they're, they're good questions.

I think we can't afford that risk.

Oh, I've, I've read Adam Band's stuff he puts up next. He's actually talking about if the,

if Labor, you know, gets through this process and that they do it and the Greens do a deal

with Labor, that that's great for the Greens, that they can now assert their positions.

I've actually seen, I've read Adam Band.

Yeah, they're licking their lips.

He's saying that. Whereas Albanese says, well, I'm not going to do a deal with the Greens.

Yeah.

But can he possibly not do a deal with the Greens?

Well, I, I think he will because I think, I mean,

power for the Labor Party is their reason for existence. I mean, that's, they want to be in

power. Um, and we, I, I feel like sometimes one of our, uh, weaknesses is we want to constantly

focus on doing good for the country. You've got to be in power to do that. So we've got to keep

that in mind. But Albanese, I think we'll do, we'll do a deal with the Greens and Teals, uh,

if he can get, if he can stay in power to do it. And as I say, that's not the version of government,

if we want to see.

Yeah. It's funny. It's about, you mentioned something interesting a few moments ago about,

um, your values. Um, it'd be great if somehow instead of us sort of interpreting politicians

and particularly those people who are leaders of each party, like, you know, at a senior level

like yourself and of course, Peter Dutton and Albanese and Jim Chalmers, it'd be great if we

could somehow get our heads around what are their values.

Mm-hmm.

Um, like really, really deep down what, I guess, I mean, Albo was here, he was talking about,

you know, like, um, no one gets left behind, all that sort of stuff. I get that. But like,

really, what are your values? Like, uh, do you value what big business does for Australia?

The amount of tax it pays? The amount of people it employs? Do you value what small business

owners do? The amount of people they employ? The amount of the tax that those people they

employ pay?

Mm-hmm.

Um, when I look at the last budget, I saw nothing.

There was nothing in there that was small business friendly. In fact, they took the

investment allowance out. And it was only a small investment allowance out. They just

got rid of it.

Yeah.

I, I, it'd be just good if, if somehow, somewhere, everyone was made, like, write down your five

best, most important values so we knew what people stood for.

Yeah, as long as they actually told you what they really were.

Yeah, we want the truth.

Yeah, I mean, this is why, as I get around the country, one of the things I'm most excited

about is meeting the candidates that we've got running for us at this election. And, you

know, the range is incredible. So, you know, from farmers to, to tradies, to paramedics,

uh, to, to one of your former employees.

Yeah, Scott Young.

Scott, yeah.

From Bennelong.

Exactly. Um, and, you know, these are people from the full range of backgrounds across

Australia. An incredible group of people. And, uh, that is a huge strength for the Liberal

Party. The, the, the weakness is they haven't got political backgrounds. And so they don't

know how to play the political games. And I kind of felt like that when I came into,

into this.

This job. But I'd rather have that strength. Uh, I, because I think they're the values

of middle Australia. I think they're the values of hardworking Australians who want to get

ahead, Mark. And, um, that's the party I want to be part of. And it's the party I'm very

proud to be, to be part of. So we wear our values on our sleeves. We still, it doesn't

mean we don't have differences. We do. And the thing about Liberals is, man, we're always

prepared to debate. We do. That's too much sometimes. But, but I do think, um, those,

those values are strong.

And, and, uh, our job, and we don't always do it as well as we can, is to, is to get

out and tell people that this is what we believe in.

So small business, which was your original question, is such a big part of it. I mean,

it's, it's obviously my background. Farming is small business. They're the same thing.

Um, and, uh, I, I know that it fuels so much of Australia. It fuels our communities. Uh,

it fuels our local economies.

It's part of our DNA.

It's part of our DNA. And it's that enterprising spirit of Australians getting out there and

having a crack and having a go and building a business. 29,000 insolvencies, uh, in the

last two and a half years record. I mean, that's 29,000 broken dreams. Let's be clear. Um,

and you know, some businesses fail. That's the nature of things. But, um, but I think

this is over the odds and, uh, we, we've got to celebrate the incredible work that our

people do in those businesses because we all rely on it. Uh, and we all enjoy what they

do, uh, every day when we go to the local cafe or pub or, uh, go to local shop, wherever

it is.

Um, we eat, uh, we're eating from, from the work that farmers do. So, um, it's got to

be celebrated. That's why so much of our policy is focused on that instant asset write-off,

getting rid of unnecessary red tape, making sure our industrial relations doesn't make

it impossible to employ casuals, you know, this right to disconnect, which we think is

something that should be worked out between the boss and the employee, not by the government.

I mean, these are the things that we know are important to small business.

I mean, one of the things I, like, I, I often think about the Australian or the DNA or, or

our, or our original, our, our, our origins is, mate, we had convicts who came out to

this country in, you know, a couple hundred years ago who, once they got out of being

a convict and they got freedom, they went off and built roads, built pubs, built farming

businesses. Some of them were lucky enough to get a grand land.

Yep.

That's how, where we started.

Exactly.

That, that's, and then, then we've had immigrants who've come to the country, someone like my

dad, who, you know, couldn't do what he did back in his own country, which is farming.

So he had to take the nearest job and he became a, worked in a factory, but then started a

little small business on the side.

Yeah.

So it is Australia's fabric.

And for me, a party that's not even considering those people, and I haven't heard the word

small business get uttered out of the Labour Party for a long time.

And I will say,

I'll go back to the Keating and Hawke periods.

They actually appreciated small business owners.

Yeah, I think that's right.

Yeah.

But today it seems like it's a no-no area.

No, and it's, it's, there's a couple of influences here.

One, there's a sort of a corporatist mindset, you know, big unions, big business, and big

business has an important role to play.

Don't get me wrong.

I mean, it absolutely does.

And the unions have a role to play.

But if that's all you're focused on, you're missing a huge part of that economy.

The really dynamic piece of, of people getting out there and serving Australians every day,

in their businesses, two and a half million.

And I think we should be celebrating that every single day.

And I think the other thing is that people who are in business, who serve a customer,

should be proud of what they do.

I mean, I think part of what's happened in business is you're made to feel bad about

what you do.

Yeah.

Well, you shouldn't.

You know, when you serve a customer, your business, when you're able to give a customer

a loan to buy a home, I mean, that's a victory.

Yeah.

That is a noble thing.

Yeah.

That is a truly glorious day for that, that person who's been able to get a loan, buy

a home, uh, and, and live the Australian dream.

And, and we should be much prouder of what our businesses and particularly our small

businesses do every single day.

And that's a good point, Angus.

And it's, it's funny, you know, even I forget about it, forget about the importance of that.

And recently I was on a plane and I was going overseas and, uh, the, uh, the, one of the

attendants on the plane, she came up to me and she kept looking at me, she walked past

and eventually she stopped and said, look, you know, look, I just want to say something

to you.

And she said, um, I want to thank you.

And she was a woman in her late fifties, I want to say.

She said, I've worked for Qantas my whole life.

She said, when, uh, I got divorced, um, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, she adopted children.

She said, I got left with the kids by myself.

And she said, we had to sell the family home.

She said, I was a single mother, two adopted kids, had a job at Qantas, had to borrow money.

She said, I want to thank you because you're the only organization that would lend me the

money.

Yeah, there you go.

And she, she started tearing up.

How good is that?

And I thought to myself.

Like, I've been in this business for a long, long time and I thought to myself, that's

a reason why I do what I do.

Exactly.

Because you can actually change people's life.

And it could be, it could be as, as simple and as, um, commonplace as serving someone

a coffee in the morning who's had a shitty night, might've been at the hospital with

their kid, um, is dying to have a coffee, just a few moments of relaxation on their

own, just to drink a warm coffee and maybe on a cold morning.

And you, you actually put that person in that position.

That's what a small business does.

And that's Australian values.

Exactly.

I mean, you know, if you work in a restaurant, you're a waiter or a waitress in a restaurant

and you serve a couple who decide, you know, are proposing to each other.

Yeah.

Or this is the first time they've gone out to dinner and they end up marrying and having

three kids and, you know, like these are, this is what businesses do every day.

Um, and I don't think we celebrate them.

I think.

At times business in Australia, probably particularly big business, um, uh, has lost

its way.

I think, you know, when business doesn't celebrate what it does for its customers and

its employees, suppliers, it starts wanting to celebrate all these other things.

I think it's losing touch with what it's there for.

Um, and I think we saw some of that in the voice debate and I think Australians roundly

rejected that, that approach, but, but I, but I think we get to that place because we're

not celebrating.

Uh, the incredible work that, that these Australians are doing and, and good on them.

We should be proud of what they do.

Totally.

We should, we should be like, we've got to, we've got to continue to foster small business

owners in this country and all the people who work for them.

And there's, there's like, as you said, there's 2.2 million small business owners in Australia,

but there's about 7 million people who work for them.

It's the biggest workforce in the country.

Like it's double the size of the public service, double the size of the public service.

And then big business accounts for about, uh, 10 or 15% of the, of the employees.

But a small business, we employ everybody, all of us.

And, you know, from farmers right through to people who install Elon Musk's, uh, uh,

Skylink, whatever is on top of your house.

You probably have it in the farm.

I do.

Yeah, so do I.

And it bloody works well.

It's fantastic.

I have it in my farm as well.

It works very well.

So I, I, I, knowing that you're coming here and, um, next week I've got, uh, the, the,

the treasurer himself.

So, uh, he, um, he's, I've given him and you, I'm going to give you the same opportunity

to ask.

A couple of questions.

And so the treasurer has sent me three questions you'd like me to put to you first working

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Are you really going to legislate or have higher income taxes for everyone?

Absolutely. You know, what's caused higher interest rates or high income taxes, personal

income taxes for Australians is higher inflation. That's what's done it. I mean, we are now paying

the highest rate of personal income tax that we have for a long, long time. They've gone up

by well over 20% for the typical Australian family since Labor came to power. And that's

what inflation does. Now, their so-called personal income tax cut, that'll be gone

within a couple of years because you just wash it all away. I mean, it's 70 cents a day

in 15 months time. So this is complete nonsense. So 2026.

Yeah. So it will be washed out of the system in no time at all. And under Labor's homegrown

inflation, of course, we're paying a hell of a lot of money.

A lot more personal income tax. So the job here is beat inflation. That's got to be the

top priority. Get the budget back in shape, which Jim Chalmers has trashed. He's borrowing

from the future to spend money and then put ourselves in a position where we can drive

down proper personal income tax reductions. Of course, we have driven big personal income

tax reductions when we were in government, phase one, phase two, phase three.

Scott Morrison.

Exactly. And so, you know, we'll always be the party of lower taxes. We also think right

now what is important for immediate relief is to get that fuel tax down because there's

so many Australians in our suburbs and regions who travel long distances who are under a

lot of pain with mortgages. And that's the best way we can get them short term immediate

relief, not in 15 months time.

So you are not going to have higher income taxes for everybody?

There'll be lower income taxes. In fact, we have a tax to GDP cap. We've set, Labor hasn't,

and that says in the future. We're not going to keep.

So we're not clawing back more money from Australians by allowing inflation to erode

their pay packets.

Okay. So the second question he has, you have flagged cuts to health and education. Where

specifically will those cuts come from?

We really should get these questions fact checked. But anyway, I'll do the fact checking

for you because we haven't flagged any cuts to health. I mean, this is complete nonce or

education. In fact, we've said that we will.

I will provide bulk billing incentives. We do think there's areas of government spending

that shouldn't be happening. We do think that the public service has got too big in this

country and that it's making it harder for small businesses and others to find employees.

But that's not in essential services like health and education. And in fact, we've announced

in recent weeks, not only will we provide the bulk billing incentive to fix up the mess

that we've seen with a big reduction in bulk billings.

since Labor's come to power. We've also been clear that we'll provide GP incentives, we'll

provide extra mental health sessions, and a very significant investment in mental health

as well, which we know is a really big issue for many Australians. So our total spend there

is actually in that area is bigger than Labor's. That was announced in the reply.

Yeah, in budget and reply. He might have written the questions before then, I don't know, Mark.

Maybe you can read the reply. And his third question is, he says, I've seen a lot of your

policies mirror those of the current US administration. Why are you trying to emulate

Donald Trump? We do what is right for Australia every day. I'm sure Donald Trump seeks to do what

is right for America, but we'll do what is right for Australia. We certainly don't support what

they're doing with tariffs. And the right thing for Australia is exactly the sort of things we've

been talking about today. And I'm very proud of those policies in small business, in getting

access to a home.

Yeah.

In making it easier to borrow money, to get advice, all of the things that we stand for

in allowing Australians to get on and get ahead.

So you're not all sort of sitting around there having a strategy meeting saying, Trump's

done this and he won the election. Let's do the same thing and we'll win the election

here in Australia.

Oh, it's just absolute nonsense. I mean-

You didn't go and have an off-site and sit around together.

But I'm sure that's what the Labor Party thinks. And it just tells me they're pretty out of

touch with what's going on.

And certainly out of touch with what we're doing and thinking the fact that they didn't even

understand their health policies probably tells you everything.

So I'm going to give you, and I'll do it off camera, but I'm going to give you,

so I'm not going to announce it to him, obviously, the questions, but I'm going to give him this,

give you the opportunity to tell me, give me three questions to ask him without notice

in the interview I do with him next week. Finally though, Angus, in one sentence,

I'm going to open up a new one, so there you go.

Why should Australians vote at this next election, vote for Liberal and for the Nationals,

vote for the coalition?

We can't afford another three years like the last three years, we can do better. And that's

what we are committed to do.

Angus Fowler, thanks very much.

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