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I'm Mike Boris and this is Straight Talk.
What was Straight Talk, mate?
Thanks for having me, mate.
So one podcaster to another.
How's it feel to be interviewed?
Oh, mate, it's a bit, um, it's interesting. I think it's actually a lot easier being where
you are when you've got the control of the conversation. Yeah, you sort of forget what
Yeah, but when I'm interviewing a podcaster, I'm not sure if I have control of the conversation.
So I had, uh, um, Mia Friedman on last week, week four.
I actually listened to that.
And Mia's like, you know, great talent.
And, uh, I found the conversation started to become more of a conversation.
You know, we, we, we carry on a little bit when we're podcasting.
Oh, we just try to have a conversation.
But you're right.
You know, you all got the brief.
The podcaster, the host has got the brief and is sort of in control of it.
And, uh, but when you talk to an actual, another podcaster, they start to make it more
Like Mia started to sort of half-by-interview me.
And it's interesting about the whole podcaster world.
And it's interesting about this concept of,
What do you learned?
Now, I just quickly want to know this part, but what have you learned about the concept
of conversation from being a podcaster host?
It's a great question.
I've learned so much from it.
It's, it's honestly been for me in a selfish way.
It's been like a degree in life.
Like I'm so lucky to sit down with people each week, a lot like yourself.
And as you said before, like you were interviewing me, but I've got so many questions for you
today, like about just how to do it.
Cause I've just always.
I've always been a really curious guy and sometimes I forget that we're even recording
the conversation.
We're filming it.
I'm just genuinely curious.
Like how this person has done this.
Still just start a curiosity.
Cause a lot of people, you know, you probably know these people.
I know these people want to go, I've got to get a podcast because they think it's sort
of a necessary thing in terms of running a business, whatever the case may be building
Um, what would you say curiosity, therefore in the way you conduct the podcast is a really
important, really important piece, like a necessary piece to have in the podcast.
A hundred percent.
And that's where you get the best stuff from, right?
Like, you know, you've got run sheets and obviously that's, that's great to have if
you fall back on it, but you want it to just flow and be curious and let the conversation
Like I've always got in mind, I suppose, pre-show or pre-guest, I always think back to like
when I was 16, 17 years old, I just had no idea how things work.
And even with, you know, mom's friends or dad's friends, I'd come around, they'd be
like, I'm an accountant.
So like, how does that work?
Like, what do you do?
It's like, so what time do you get to work?
Do you just go sit at your desk?
And then like, do you have a meeting?
Like who tells you what to do?
How do you know how that happens?
And they'd be like, mate, shut up.
Like, how are these guys?
But I'm like, I just didn't understand.
And then I think I realized like when you get to, you know, older and I suppose a little
bit wiser now, and you have a bit more life experience, like no one knows what they're
Like no one has any idea, but the more that this beautiful space of podcasting, open conversation
has worked it out, you have such more of an understanding now of how things can work and
how there's just not one way to do things.
Which I think maybe an older generation had been trapped into of just one way to go.
You know, you get the job, you buy the house, the picket fence, but there's so many other
things you can do.
There's so many other ways you do it.
And probably the key metric of that as well along the way, which may not have ever got
spoken about is there's going to be some adversity and it's sort of not what happens.
It's how you react to it.
Is podcasting though, I mean, there's some wonderful interviewers in the world.
Like we've, Michael Parkinson, we've seen lots of great interviewers in the world.
Like I have at least.
Maybe not so much your generation because my generation, you listen to radio and or
like long form interviews or there used to be TV shows where dudes used to get up there
and do the interview.
I mean, there's women do it too as well, but I've only ever used to watch the dudes and
I'm going a long way.
Like Michael Parkinson's Parker, but that's sort of sort of drifted out of TV a little
You know, they probably, it's probably commercially probably going to get enough advertisers around
But podcast has sort of taken its place.
I don't know whether you know, we film ours, you probably film yours too.
What do you, what do you think though that podcasting has done not, I'm not talking from
an audience point of view, from the host point of view, your point of view, what do you think
it's done for you in terms of building a skill around being able to converse with people?
Because I find conversation.
If I'm out in the street and I'm having a conversation, I'm now starting to take my
podcasting skills to be a better person on the street when I talk to someone.
What has it done for you?
What have you learned about yourself and your own skill base in terms of having done podcasts
What's it done for you outside of podcasting, like as a person relative to conversations
or are you just say, ah, I've done my conversation today, I've done a podcast, I'm not talking
to any other bastard.
Yeah, I think for me, there's, there's a few things that, that jump out when you said
I've, I've probably never really reflected on it too, too much, but it's a great point
I think for me, the one thing and the one advice I always give young podcasters, and this can
be done in life, like even going on dates or anything like that, you, you get often
give that, you know, silence is the, the enemy of awkwardness.
Like it's like, you don't want silence, you keep talking.
So one skill that I've picked up, and I think a lot of like podcasters and people make, and,
and end up, but in my life, there's like more of like, like
But that WHO I keep holding.
That yeah, all my web up like troopers and people knowing, like, but from a personal
perspective, it's, it's like, I can pass if it don't wear下來 I don't know in my career.
I, I can pass it.
So go out there, go out and be a himself.
When I was working in a, in a youtube job, though, like I wasn't successful with products
but I went to a barber about two years ago and he said, he's a barber and he's working
in, he's a barber, and I'm like, okay, that mustn't be anywhere near that minced female
Well three hours, but every done Chestnut soundtrack?
And more meaning to have eye contact and almost just like nod along to encourage that person
to keep talking and not keep speaking, but you're just like listening with your eyes,
showing you're engaged.
And the more you hold, the more you just hold and don't actually speak that silence, that
person will just keep talking forever because you're just listening with your eyes, you're
there, you're engaged, but you're not interrupting.
I think the curiosity part's there.
If someone does have some social anxieties and struggles in conversation, don't think
of the next question.
Just literally listen to what that person is saying and when it finishes, you will think
of the next question to come to.
So don't preempt anything, just literally just listen.
And if you don't know, I'd be like, oh, that's a great point.
Yeah, you stumped me there.
Fucking hell, I didn't know where that was going.
Hey, moving on, what's the next thing?
And then I suppose the one after it that I think has been really important for me actually
and something I'm really lucky to do in this role is how important it actually is to connect
with other humans without a phone or technology.
So like for, you know, probably two...
Two to three hours a week, I sit down and have like the old school DNM with someone
that you're not engaged in any social media.
We're literally just chatting.
We're super focused.
It's almost like a form of meditation that we are just like so engaged right now having
Like we can't go pick up our phones.
We can't go scroll.
We can't think about anything else.
Like I'm locked in.
So I think for me, like those three things are pretty cool.
And, you know, even if someone doesn't want to go publicly start a podcast, like go and
Get coffees with people.
Put your phones away and just literally have a chat for an hour and a half.
See what happens.
Do you think as a result of doing podcasts, you are better at dealing with, say, any form
of social anxiety?
I mean, did you have social anxiety before this?
Like, because me, I'm not necessarily a really social dude.
And although everybody who listens to my show and watches my Instagram think they know me
really well, which is sort of a consequence of, I guess, being successful in this space.
No doubt you'll experience the same thing.
I wouldn't call myself social.
I'm not necessarily anxious.
But I would say that I can, prior to me doing podcasts, I've been doing it for eight years
But prior to that, I was probably not that easily socially engaged.
Maybe I was too focused on what I was doing and wasn't therefore, by definition, have
the energy to be interested in what someone else is doing.
But this has forced me to become interested in what other people are doing.
And I don't know.
Sometimes I challenge myself.
Am I genuinely interested in what Dil's telling me?
Or am I doing this?
Because I'm performing.
Because I know I've got the camera on me.
I've got to perform.
I don't know which one it is.
It doesn't really matter.
I'm just disclosing it to you.
I don't want you to feel like I couldn't give a shit.
Because, I mean, I do give a shit.
But sometimes I ask myself the question.
And conversation a lot of times is about performance.
And it can be quite exhausting if you're not naturally really good at it.
Like some people are so bloody good at this shit.
And I'm not naturally very good at it.
I've developed the skill, but I'm not naturally good at it.
What do you think about that as a consequence of being in the podcasting space,
being successful at it?
Having spoken to many, many hundreds of people in this formal sort of environment,
how do you feel about yourself?
Am I naturally interested or am I performing?
I did chat with Mark Howard.
So how he does how he games.
And he's been a cool support for me through this period too.
He's podcasting on Listener, I think.
And they've been sort of OGs of the game.
And I had him on my show one day and he said, the interviewee, like the guest is never bad.
It's always about me.
It's like, what can I do?
If they haven't performed, it's something that I haven't done to get that out of them.
So I took that feedback on board.
And I think like, if you look at that and you think, was that episode bad?
And if it was like, it's got to be to do with the host.
How do you work if the episode's bad?
Or how you felt about the episode?
Yeah, just how you felt about it.
Well, I think like.
At the end of the day, it's how you felt about the episode.
Like, if you didn't get out of it what you wanted to get out of it, it's got something
to do with the person that is ultimately navigating the conversation.
Like, you've got to get to those points where you, you know, if it is getting boring or
there's nothing that you want to talk about, you go, fuck it, let's pivot.
Like, and I think that's what people love about podcasting, you know?
Like, if that was on live TV, you can't just go, hey, fuck, we're down some weird rabbit
Like, why don't we just piss off and go somewhere else?
Like, you can do that.
So, but do you actually ever?
Like, give yourself an uppercut and say.
Oh, mate, sometimes I go, hey, mate, I'm so sorry.
I don't know where the fuck we are right now.
Like, should we just like go back and talk about this?
And people are like, yeah, fuck it.
Like, that's what people love though.
I think like I'm someone who confesses to not know exactly what I'm doing.
I think I have a fair idea, but I think when you pretend you know everything, that's when
you get yourself into trouble.
So, you know, part of my lightheartedness that I can get with people and get them to
open up about themselves or share things they want to do is like, I don't have all the answers,
but I feel like I'm a pretty easy guy to be around.
If you want to go and talk about things, let's do it.
I'll go anywhere.
So, because like, you know, at the end of the day, you and I now know, I never used
to know this, but everybody's in this world is interested in telling their story.
Everybody, all of us.
Because, and I don't know whether we want really to tell the other person their story,
but I think we like to relate the story to ourselves.
And in that conversation, the other person gets to share in that.
So, let's say you're the podcaster.
And I'm being interviewed by you.
You might say, well, Mark, you know, I'm going to ask all these questions to you anyway.
And Mark likes to tell the story about himself out loud.
And then, and I'm sharing it with you.
But really, I'm sort of talking to myself about it.
Because when I'm talking, I'm also listening.
And I know most people, audiences don't realize that, that the podcast guest is also listening
to himself or herself.
And a lot of times, we're affirming things we believe about ourselves.
We're affirming our own story.
Or sometimes, we're actually even being asked a question like I tried to ask you right at
I did ask you at the very beginning about something we may never have thought about
And it's actually interesting from my point of view to watch that person start to calculate
Oh, that's interesting.
I never really thought about that before.
And I quite get, I get quite interested in watching you calculate it and then downloading
How, what do you think about, I mean, I have this concept.
Whenever we talk, we're having a conversation with ourselves.
Whenever I talk, if I'm being interviewed, whenever you talk as a guest of my show, you're
talking to yourself first.
The guest is always talking to themselves first.
So let them talk.
Let them convince themselves of the thing that neurologically they think about themselves.
Let them affirm in their own mind what they've always thought about themselves and drag,
bits and pieces out of information, out of their life story to, to affirm who they are.
What do you think about that?
Have you noticed that in some of your guests?
Well, I've actually, I've never said it in my guests, but I definitely noticed it in
Like that's like the place where 100%, like I'll say things a lot of the time I'm thinking
I'm saying this because this is something that I'm doing, but I want to continue to
So you almost put the pressure on yourself to, to, you know, keep those, like uphold
those standards for yourself or what you're saying to make sure that you keep it relevant.
But yeah, for sure.
Like I've always had this weird thing as a kid where I almost like, almost think of
my life as like a documentary and like almost before it plays out, like how things are going
to happen and then I actually go and do it.
So it's a weird thing.
It's like something I've always sort of like, I wouldn't just call it visualization, but
it's almost like just planning ahead, thinking about things, you know, showing where you
want to be and then trying and going and living and doing it.
So I will talk about your podcast a little bit later, but let's just go.
So right back to early days, I mean, you're still pretty young, but let's go back to really
early days as a kid.
Growing up, what's it like growing up with a dad who's like really well known as a NFL
I mean, good and bad.
What's, I mean, I don't mean it's anything bad, but like where are the pressures that
And then how did your family deal with that?
It was, it was interesting.
It was one of those things, look, you know, I've only had one dad and you only know what
So I probably didn't know what it was.
I don't know what it's like to have a completely normal upbringing, but.
Normal in the sense of what the population does.
The rest of the population.
As opposed to the word normal, I don't know what normal means, but the rest of the population.
Because you're an outlier.
Your dad, as a well-known person, makes you an outlier as his son.
So, you know, going up and growing up through football was always something I wanted to
Knowing dad had played and been really successful throughout his career was, was
obviously, you know, really relevant in my head and I always wanted to, to follow in
What's the positives of that though, growing up?
What was, what were, what were the added values to you?
What, what, what did that do to your life?
Oh, so many doors opened.
And I think for me, like, there's this idea of a self-made man, like no one's self-made,
you know, like good and bad.
You learn from things as an upbringing and different things have an effect on you.
Like so many doors were open for me as a young kid and opportunities that not other, many
people would get.
And I think it's a beautiful thing, but also it was nearly a negative if I look back now,
being able to experience all those things, you know, like being a part of a car and footy
club and walking through those doors and being blessed with these opportunities that I hadn't
necessarily worked extremely hard for, but I was just getting because of, you know, my
old man's opportunities, he opened the door for me.
So, you know, ultimately I ended up getting picked up to, to that footy club and, you
know, I knew at a young age that I was going to go there.
But the, the weight of having my, my dad there at the club, it was never relevant for me
Like I never felt that pressure.
Um, because my, my family were just worried if I was happy or not.
Like, I don't know, that's a cliche thing to say, but my mom and dad have never put
any pressure on me whatsoever.
I actually wish they used to put, I wish they put more pressure on me because I had to probably
learn later in life, just everything like, you know, I'm a, I'm a young father now.
And, um, it's really interesting.
I think when you become a parent, you reflect on your own childhood a lot and you think
about all the things that you did.
And, you know, I was such a shit kid, man.
I was just so spoiled, um, in the sense of not financially spoiled, but just like, if
I didn't want to do something, I didn't have to do it.
Or, you know, I had extreme fears of like going on school camps, never went on school
And I sort of wish that sometimes I wish now they forced me to do it because those fears
stayed with me for so much longer.
Like I didn't get to solve them when I was a kid, you know, I had to solve them when
I was like 26 years old.
And those anxieties as a little kid that I...
Maybe try, should have tried to work through at that stage ended up sort of becoming bigger
problems later in life that ultimately we're going to have to face eventually, but you're
better off just going head first at the beginning.
Does that make sense?
Because, you know, I've got four kids, four sons and I've got three grandsons.
I've got a lot of kids in my family and I've often thought through this process myself.
I know each one of my kids is different.
So I've had to put different pressures on different ones at different times.
Um, so did you have like a social anxiety?
I just want to explore that.
No, no, no social anxiety.
So like I could talk to anyone and everything.
Always the camping deal.
So I've always had a level of, um, you know, I just thought I was a nervous kid to be honest,
You thought you were.
I thought I was nervous.
I had no idea what anxiety was.
And it's a word that obviously is very prevalent these days.
Yeah, it is these days.
I don't even like talking about it because it's like, I don't want to give it the power
that it is, but also it's something that I'm, you know, dealing with and, and, and living
with and, um, and thriving with.
I like to say I'm thriving with it, but I always had so many, um, rational,
irrational fears as a kid.
Like I was really struggled staying away from home, hated, you know, going to school,
being away from my mom, going to, you know, mate's houses for sleepovers, anything like
that, like just would, I couldn't do it.
Outside of your environment.
Outside of my environment, just couldn't do it.
Was it a control thing?
I don't know what it was.
I'm not sure what it was, but it was just a fear that something bad was going to happen.
Is that why you like podcasts though?
You're in control of the outcomes?
No, because it's funny because there's so many things that I, you know, with podcasting,
I don't like, you don't know where something's going to go and you've got to put some stuff.
But you can always bring it back.
You can always bring it back.
You are sort of in control.
Somewhat in control.
It's for me, it was more, you know, I had just intrusive thoughts of things that were
More like you're going to get kidnapped or something?
Well, no, more so something like a very common one, like you call your mom, doesn't answer
that, fuck, she's dead.
You know, something like that.
Like, like if my wife doesn't answer the phone, you know, you know, I straight away stress.
And I've gotten a lot better at this, like, you know, having these conversations and,
um, and being better at learning to manage them and, and investing in myself.
But, you know, it's something that I've dealt with, um, my whole life and, and, and through
sport, through footy.
Um, it's been a, it's been a part of me.
I sort of wrote about it in my book and I feel like I nailed it in that sense of it.
It's my worst enemy, but my best friend, because it can make, you know, it makes me
It makes me considerate, makes me curious, makes me, um, fun to hopefully be around.
But also it can be, you know, if I'm not managing it, it can, it can, it can be really
challenging as well.
When you were a kid.
Um, yeah, you obviously don't recognize you have these sort of irrational worries that
you don't realize the worries are irrational.
They're not based on any logic, but they're also, because when you're a kid though, everything's
That's the great thing about being a kid.
Everything's possible.
Um, nothing's impossible.
Um, as a kid, did you ever express those concerns to your parents?
I don't think I spoke to anyone until I was about 26 years old.
Do your parents notice it?
What's wrong with your deal?
Like, why are you feeling like that way?
I think they probably would.
Like, there was just some weird things I was doing.
Like, you know, obviously being, you know, in high school and not being able to sort
of go on a school camp is, you know, and I was like thinking to myself, I was having
a lot of mates and things like that and just had to make up that I had to.
So you weren't a loner?
No, I wasn't a loner and it was sort of hard to hide because like I was technically like,
you know, I had a lot of mates doing things and I was like, no, I just don't want to do
But I suppose later in, in life, you know, that sort of even manifested.
To some performance anxiety when I was playing sport and I really struggled to get up for
So even when I was playing AFL.
You mean get your mind ready?
Yeah, mind ready for game day.
Like I'd love playing sport and love doing the, the, the week was fantastic leading up.
Yeah, loved everything about it.
But as soon as game day came, I was just like, fucking hell, like, I don't want to do this.
Like, how can I get out of it?
This is like, you know, driving to the MCG when you're like, should be absolutely wrapped
that you've got a game you're playing.
And I'm thinking, fuck, you know, maybe if I break my leg in the first quarter, then
So just go out there and go as hard as you can and just see what happens.
Is it a fear of failure?
There's a lot there.
And I think it sounds so stupid to me saying that now, like to someone who doesn't, like
maybe people listening can, can relate to that.
But when you don't speak about it, you're out to people, you just believe the things
So until I got my opportunity actually up here in, in.
At the Giants, I had six years at Carlton and then two years up here in Sydney, I ended
up sitting down with the guy.
The psychologist.
The psychologist.
And I was like, look, I've never told anyone this because I thought they'd go tell the
coaches, then like, why would we play a bloke that doesn't even want to get out there and
And he was like, man, this is, this is normal.
Like, it's, it's okay to feel like this.
Like you can, and I was like, fuck.
Like, I thought I was going crazy, you know, and I think that's the isolating part of when
you, you live in your own head.
And you don't speak to people about certain things.
You can, it does get very lonely.
You think that there is something wrong with you and you can't, yeah, you can't sort of
But it was, yeah, super challenging times.
I look back now and how open I am with it now and talking about certain things.
I was like, fuck, like it was, I would never have told anyone that because I was just so
Well, particularly, yeah, back a generation, like it's nearly like there's something wrong
Like you're weak or you're inadequate.
I mean, it's funny, you know, you should just say that about that.
Um, I, I used to have dreams.
And I, I didn't play at your level, but I'm just talking as a young guy, like a teenager
playing footy rugby league.
I used to have dreams about, um, on game day, I would dream that I either forgot my mouth
guard or I only had one boot.
And I, and I, I used to, I, you know, later on in life, I thought maybe I felt as though
I wasn't properly prepared.
I hadn't trained properly or wasn't prepared.
And I paid a rep level, but I was only a teenager, 15, 16, 17.
And, and, uh, I said there was something wrong with me.
And, um, it was often, it was like a repeating dream.
And, uh, until I found that one of my best mates who was like the gun guy played in a
play NRL, he used to have the same dreams.
And, uh, and I thought, oh shit, like I felt much better because it was more normalized.
It became normalized because I didn't, I just happened to mention to him, I had a mad, mad
I left, left my mouth.
I turned over that my mouth guard or I had one boot.
Um, and, uh, he said, I have the same dreams.
And isn't it funny, like once you talk to someone.
Well, that's a pair of conversation, even podcasting, you know, like someone might learn
from something today, like about that.
And I don't feel as alone.
Like, I think the, the only time something that I've, you know, it gives me, it's a harsh
reality, but it's like such good perspective and you can't take offense to it.
It's like, no one actually sort of gives a fuck about you.
Like you're so irrelevant, like of anything.
And I think that in saying that and bringing it back to that point, it's like no one gives
a damn and you're not the, you're not the first person or the last person to go through
So like anything that's happened has probably happened to someone else and it's probably
happening to a lot of other people.
And for me, as someone who's experienced times like that, when you do feel so alone, you
think you're the only person that's ever had a certain thought or any, you know, you've
done a certain thing and then you racked it aside.
certain way super comforting super comforting to learn that this is something that a lot of people
go through and you don't feel alone at all it's it's a good point you make because you know often
we think um oh he will never nothing will ever happen to him look at him he's got his dad and
you know he's talented naturally talented genetically talented um he's you know he's
playing for colton he's playing for the giants you know look how good is it and then you say that
and someone goes oh shit it like people look at me they think oh wow he's done all these like as
soon as i and i don't want to go talk you know throw out their own vulnerabilities and all that
shit but every one of us made everyone you could do straight talk with 10 people down the street
that have a better story than me yeah yeah they're all got vulnerabilities everyone's got a great
story yeah the point becoming though it's important to talk about it for your own sake for sure help
you said before that part about like
you said before that part about like me
me telling this today actually helps me continue to train and keep going about it so that's why i
actually there's a selfishness to being vulnerable and i think people talk about this at all
there's a selfishness to telling your story because it actually continues to reinforce
the same things you want to continue 100 that was sort of my point there is a selfishness yeah
i mean i had a guy sitting here one one of my podcast guy called danny abdullah and danny you
probably don't know the story but you because you're from victoria but it's a lot of people
sitting about him and his wife and you know a lot of his kids three of his kids died well
two of his kids died and his knee one of his nephews or nieces died um where they were
just walking up the road with their cousins etc to get an ice cream and unfortunately a guy was
drunk and hit him in the car and he saw them his kids die and uh and danny has been a is a master
of forgiveness now he never used to be but he's become a master of forgiveness you know what he
said to me he said i do it for selfish reasons he said unless i can forgive that person he said i'm
going to be personally will be tormented for the rest of my life and i'll be no good to the rest of
my family and he's since had more children but um and you're right i mean one of the things i've
learned from being a podcast host is that people want to talk about themselves because there is a
self-interest in that it is actually therapeutic and is actually also uh belief building helps you
build the things you believe about yourself because everything we all have a story about us
ourselves i don't give a who you are you might have story by yourself that you're a failure
that's because you keep building on the story that you fail and you keep actually presenting yourself
as a failure and you keep reaffirming yourself you're afraid and you become a failure yeah you
become the thing you believe about yourself and that's what neuroplasticity is all about you can
actually change that and plasticity meaning you can change the story about yourself and i think
that's that that's probably one of the biggest things that has helped me a lot like there was a
literally a conversation i remember i had with the same conversation with that psychologist i was
would have been the same meeting right like i've got my my money's worth in this um chat or maybe
it was just the time of my life where i was like listening to listening to things and actually take
them on board but exactly exactly what you're talking about in the sense of one of my biggest
key indicators is language and how i speak to myself and what i say because ultimately what
i say is what i'll do and what i'll become and i remember one day i was talking about this old like
fable and it was about um the wool uh these two um wolves and um this this
grandpa was talking to a grandson and he's telling the story about the two wolves one's
positivity and one's negativity or one's like winning and one's failing
and they've got to eat right and um there's a battle and they're always trying to get
stronger and and and um you got to feed them right so positivity is like winning
gratitude loved uh loved ones you know going out for dinners all those sort of things
negativities you know drinking too much hanging out with the wrong crowd um doing things that don't
on with your values. Anyway, they come and they fight and the grandson speaks to the
grandpa and he goes, which one wins? He said, whatever one you feed, meaning none of them
are ever going to die. Negativity is always going to be there, but the less you feed it,
the weaker it's going to be. If you continually feed that positive wolf and you're doing all
those things that equate to that wolf being so strong, you build that wolf up to becoming
something that is just a fierce, something that just cannot be reckoned with, that negativeness
is going to be so weak. It just can't battle the other one. For me, that came to language. It came
to the way I speak about things. I always listen to people, especially young people, when they talk
and they go, fuck this, I'll never do that. I say, well, yeah, not with that attitude, as a joke,
not with that attitude. But if you say, I haven't done this yet, you see the change just in that
language, like I haven't done it yet.
There's still a possibility you're going to, but if you write yourself off straight away,
and again, this is just affirming it to myself, unless there's an example, you'll never hear me
say, fuck this, I've never done that. Oh, fuck it, I'm not going to do that. Straight away,
you're telling yourself you can't do it.
So how did you get from being the kid who didn't, or the younger man who didn't want to go play the
game after preparing really well, also the kid who didn't want to go on a camp?
Because of, I didn't want to leave home.
But how did you, was there a moment in your life where you go, that's it, and I've got to change
the narrative in my mind to myself, and I wouldn't mind knowing what your technique was, but how did
that happen? When did that happen? Do you remember it being that crossover period?
Look, there's no one day you wake up and you've just got to, it's a skill. I've learned it as a
skill. You've got to continue. It's a technique. You might say 10 things in a day and only catch
And then the next day you're actually picking up on three of them.
But you've got to be conscious of it.
You've got to be conscious and you've got to listen to it and be conscious of what you're
saying. And I almost got so addicted to this. I was listening to other people and going,
I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say it like that. Because it became so addictive for my,
like to be this person. Then you start those little wins. You start saying like,
oh, okay, I feel a bit better. I feel a bit more positive. Things are going my way and
things are happening at a better rate. So for me, that was a massive win in that sense of
To one, just change the language, which then changed how I felt about myself, my relationship
with myself, and then how I ended up feeling about myself as well.
It's you being a sports person, you know, and knowing how to train for example. And
if I could just use the rower, you know, the rowing machine, which I hate.
But it's because it's tough.
It is tough. And, but one of the things I know, but like what you're saying is,
if I keep saying that, I won't do it.
But I know it's really good for me. Because, you know, exercise is just about every muscle
in your body. It's great for everything, aerobic, everything. So what I find is if,
okay, I'll do one minute, then I'll do two minutes. Then the next week I'll do two sessions
of three minutes. And I keep building and building and building. That's no different
to what you're saying though. So in a physiological sense, I can overcome something and actually
make it my go-to.
Rowing is my go-to.
What are you going to do? I'm going to row.
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With your brain, I think the same, and your emotions and your mentality,
I think the same thing exists, like you just said.
It's consistency, repetition, all those things. And like, in fairness, we were chatting before
about this, our wristbands we've got on these whoops. And I, for me, the first thing to go
when I'm feeling myself is- Sponsor.
The first thing to, that goes when I'm feeling myself in being busy, and I'm actually very
curious about you because you're in, you're in some very good conditions. You're in some very good conditions.
You're in some very good conditions. You're in some very good conditions. You're in some very good conditions.
For an old bloke. Well, for anyone. You're in great, Nick. And I think for me, that's something
that the correlation between how you feel about yourself, your mental health, and your physical
health, there's an incredible correlation there that's undeniable, obviously, scientifically as
well. How you feel, what you eat, what you do, how you sleep, all those things are so important.
And from my, what I've been taught with my psych that I go and see is just like almost
thinking about things as a pyramid. And your strongest base is those
four things, right? So it's like eat, sleep, your general fitness, and your general health.
And those- Can I community that? Having a community?
Well, yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think the, I'll go back to this point because I think that's
a really good point and up for discussion, up for debate. But those four are the bottom,
right? A pyramid that has to be super stable. If you're not getting those four things right,
you're not going to be actively involved and at the best for your community.
So it's been something really hard for me to actually get my head around because as a father
and now who, the most important thing to me in my life is my son and I've got another baby due in
May. Congratulations.
Yeah. So it's really exciting. But prior to this, it brought up a lot of things, as I said before,
you relive your own childhood, how the fuck am I going to do this? How am I going to be
a dad? And I think for me, I was prioritizing business and family. And then myself was third.
And I was just breaking down all the time,
health, mentally, physically, just feeling like shit. And then I'd come back and I'd be a shit
version of myself for them. So the biggest thing for me now is like, how can I get those four
things right? So that the second layer being family, friends, community is optimal. So I think
for me, it's like being in a really good place in all those four. And even if I don't want to do it,
like I don't necessarily love doing those four things, but the reward it gives me to get back
in that, that system.
That process, keeping myself as healthy as I can physically be, like health is wealth. I've had
health issues. I've had some mental health stuff that's been super, super frustrating at times. But
as soon as you go to those points, all you want is your health. All you want to do is be focusing
on what's important because then you can be a better version of yourself for everyone else.
It's a bit like the thing when you get on the airplane and they say, look, if the oxygen mask
drops down and one drops down to your kid as well, put your one on first. Because if you're no good,
you're no good to anyone else.
If you pass out, you can't put theirs on.
So it's, it's exactly that. And I think, like, how did you manage with that? Like,
is that something that you faced in, in your life? Like, have you put business and
family first before yourself or have you always found it quite something you've got to be on top
More recently, I've realized I've got to prioritize myself, actually prioritize myself. I think I did
it sort of instinctively just out of habit. So I, I'm, I'm a routine person and, and I,
I know the shit routines where I have a, have a shit time and I know the good,
good routines. So it took me a while to work out or to actually think about that. Because often I'd
have a really good routine and then I'd drop off the edge and I'd go through a shit routine and
that means drinking and all the other stuff. And, and then I'd pay the price and I'd get back up on
the, on the horse and I'd go back through the good routine. But it was like I was trying to test
myself or punish myself for being healthy. And, but these days I'm much more, these days I've
actually prioritized.
My health and all the things you talked about, sleep, nutrition, exercise. I prioritize those
ahead of everything. Not because I don't want to be unhealthy, but because in order to be a good
father and a good grandfather and good at this and be able to, just be able to meet my obligations.
Perform. I have to be that. I have to be, I can't afford to have those dips. I mean, I still will
have a dip every now and then, but it's not.
Oh, that's life, you know, you've got to have that.
But not self-imposed.
You just get dips because.
And it's not to say either like.
You get exhausted.
It's not to say that if you have a good routine, you're never going to face anything in your life.
Like you're still going to, but you're probably about to manage it a lot better.
You're giving yourself your best chance.
You're giving yourself the absolute best chance. And I wasn't giving myself the best chance at all.
Well, does that come from, what did you, if you look back at your parents, did you learn any of
this stuff from your parents? I definitely didn't, but.
Because it's not a thing that they sort of, they're aware of, I don't think, but would you
teach your kids this?
Oh, definitely. It's, you know, it's something that's huge for me.
Like I take my son out and my old man had played a lot of footy, obviously, and I knew
But there's a footy world.
Yeah, exactly. But by the time he'd finished, he was retired and put on a lot of weight,
doing a lot of drinking and.
Injuries. So he was never, he was never running or active. And I was actually chatting about
a mate with this this morning. Like the coolest thing I did recently, I was up in holiday
with the family and my brother-in-law, we went for a run and he's got three boys. I've
And they walk out, they're like, dad, you know, where are you guys going? And I'm like,
oh, we're just going for a run, mate. We'll be back. And I ran off going, that's fucking
cool. Like these four boys, like, you know, cousins, are just seeing their dad and uncle
go for a run for fitness.
And then they're going to come back and do a bit of a workout. I was like, oh, I never
saw that. And imagine then, like the impression that that's going to have on them to then
they grow up, they want to train, they want to be fit, they want to be a part of it. And
I'm not saying that that didn't happen for me, but it was a different, you know, my dad
had me a little bit later in life when that wasn't, you know, he wasn't in that aspect
of his life and the routine of those things weren't there. So again, I had to probably
learn that from other people later on in life. But yeah, it's something for me that's super
important to be that, that not such a role model, obviously to be doing those things
and having good habits, but to be showing that you have to take care of yourself. And
I think that, you know, there could be people listening going, nah, fuck that, you know,
I have to live off my family first. And I totally get that. Like that's,
very admirable, but you have to look after yourself first. I believe now, like I've
tried that, but if you want to be at a hundred percent, I'm so much better at being a dad
when I'm healthy. Like if I'm absolutely rat shit, working myself to the bone, not
physically eating shit, anxious, annoyed, pissed off, like you go home and you bring
that energy home with you. So it's been a big learning for me this year. It's been a
really big learning for me.
Are you into the whole energy concept, bad energy?
Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm a freak. I'm a real weirder.
Yeah. Like give me a bit of that. Like, I mean, I'm into it too.
Where are you going with it first? Just so I don't go super weird, but-
Because I'm weird. So it's okay.
Yeah. Well, oh, it depends how weird you want to go, but I'm definitely into like the universe,
like you know, manifestation, all those things. Like I believe, you know, to go really weird
on you, like I don't believe in, I'm not a religious person. Like I don't believe that
there's like a person that's sitting in the, you know, in the, you know, in the, you know,
in the, you know, in the, you know, in the, you know, in the, you know, in the, you know,
in the sky and makes decisions. But what I do really like about religion in the sense
of a higher power is the fact that, you know, like if you're a good person, you do good
things, you work hard, you feel good about yourself. You do feel like that. If you put
that into the world, good energy is going to come back to you.
Yeah. That's a bit like Buddhist.
And I don't know a lot about Buddhism, but for me, you know, my, the way that I view
things is I just believe in the universe. Like I believe that if I put good energy out
I do the things I'm going to do. Good energy comes back to me and you can feel it, you
know, when you're doing something that's not aligned with you, that disassociation piece,
you can feel that energy that doesn't come back the way you want. So for me, it's been,
it's almost a sense of religion, but I'd almost just believing in the energy of the universe
that what I put out there is going to come back to me.
There's a, well, if I could just.
Did I just invent Buddhism?
No, no, but you just threw yourself straight into it. But, but well, if I could just put
a, like a, a slight gloss on it.
A slight gloss on that.
There is a very, one of the most famous physics exponents in the 20th century, last century,
which is not that long ago, was a guy called Schrödinger. And Schrödinger, whilst like,
like a super physics genius, okay, like he, he succeeded Einstein. So he was the next
guy after Einstein, who was most, you know, one of the best known physicists, you know,
physicists in the, in the world. And he has this concept around religion, but not around
religion, but about, let's call it the higher power. Let's call religion the, the system,
the administration of the higher power.
Spirituality. But he has this concept of called, you mentioned universe, but he has this concept
of what he called universal consciousness. And it's about, he says that one of the fundamental
laws of physics is that energy.
That exists in any, everything, everything, never, the fundamental concept is that energy
never disappears, it just changes form. So, you know, you can't say heat energy disappears,
it just changes form into some other form of energy. And he took the view that when
we die, our consciousness still exists, but it forms part of the universal consciousness.
And that all of our energies go into one.
One place. And that one universal consciousness is there to assist us or actually impede us.
It exists out there right now. So when, you know, like if someone dies, you think, oh,
they're dead. You can't, it doesn't make sense to say they're dead because a moment ago when
they were alive, they had a certain energy about them, they had a spirit or a soul or
whatever the word is you want to use to associate with it.
And he tried to explain this away in his work by building this concept of the universe and
the universe, universal consciousness.
And it's not just us, it's animals, it's plants, it's every other planet in the solar
system that might have something similar to us. It exists in the whole of the universe
and it is around us all the time.
And so his book of universal consciousness, I think it's called Universal Consciousness,
the book, I've read the book, I can't remember the name of it, but it's along the lines you're
talking about. And I think this stuff is for real. And it's not God, we choose, you know,
going back ancient times.
We choose to put labels on everything. You know, that's our human nature. Everything's
got a name. It was Zeus and it became God and it became Jesus and it became Muhammad
and Allah and like it's, we all give it names. But Buddha would be called, there's Buddha
and there's, you know, like all of these different people. Hindus have all their people. But
that's just human nature. We need to put a label on everything. But he gave it a phrase
and it gave it more of a description. I think that's pretty cool because this is like what
you're talking about, universal energy.
Yeah. I'd never heard of that anecdote, but I'll definitely look into it. Like I feel,
you know, just thinking about it now, you feel like, you know, when you're like almost
searching for an answer and you sit in that uncomfortable periods where you're looking
for certain things to do and you'll have those feelings. It's like, imagine if like that
was literally an encyclopedia of everyone that's past knowledge of certain situations
that can then push you into certain things that are going. Like, who knows? Is it a thing,
mate? Like probably. I wouldn't be surprised.
Well, straightening of being a scientist, um,
because you know, like what's always intrigued me as well, Albert Einstein was a Jewish guy
and Jewish in a religious sense. So he believed in God and all those things. But at the same
time he's a scientist, a physicist, a famous one, like, like one of the great thinkers
of our time, of all time, modern times at least. And I often used to think to myself,
oh, how do you reconcile being that scientist where, you know, the concept of God is about
a belief as opposed to knowledge, real knowledge. No one really knows God. No one's ever seen
That he, that lives on this planet. People might see him when they leave this planet,
but I don't know. But we, so God is a, is a belief system. Whereas, um, scientists are
into knowledge, what exists, like what they can see and prove mathematically. So I used
to think to myself, how does Einstein reconcile that sort of stuff? Like, uh, being the physicist
who he was, you know, general theory, relativity, all that stuff that he'd come up with. How
does he reconcile the concept of God being a Jewish guy and at the same time being this
And then, of course, he never really wrote about it, but, uh, he wrote about it. And,
uh, he wrote about it. And, uh, he wrote about it. And, uh, he wrote about it. And, uh, he wrote
about it. And, uh, he wrote about it. And, uh, he also, he never really wrote about it.
Um, but then the next person cause I love this stuff. I mean, uh, cause I'm always trying
to reconcile the two. Cause you know, I grew up in a, my mother's IrishINGCatholic. I grew
up in a Catholic family. Um, my dad's Greek Orthodox Christian. So like, you know, it
And, uh, I've always try to reconcile this whole process in my mind. And, so I've did
a lot, a lot of research into. Schrodinger is the one that came in, like Schrodinger's
got the famous story. It's a, um, it's a thought experiment called it's called Schrodinger's
his cat and it's that's his very famous physics thought experiment um but he also wrote about
this concept of how do i how did he reconcile and i don't know he might have been jewish but
how did he reconcile reconcile faith belief with actual actuality and he came up with this
physics theory that energy which is our soul never disappears and but where therefore where does it
go and uh so and therefore what you're saying right at the very beginning of this this
conversation is going way out there but like it's good um therefore we can fall in fall back and
rely on the universe to help us out when we if we're doing all the right things good things like
in a karma sense like a buddhist sense like consciousness be look after our family look
after ourselves not be an arsehole um don't be a bigot don't be whatever all the negative stuff
try to be as positive as you can and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and
as positive as possible i think the universe universal consciousness the universe will
actually sort of give us a bit of guidance that's what i think that's sort of work for me whenever
i've been a dick something shit has always happened to me i once had a look i this is
getting right but i once had an audience i was given an audience a private audience with the
dalai lama and uh i was allowed to ask three questions because i did someone who was very
close to him a favor and she organized it
for me she was one of his nuns um and uh like he has nuns who work for him
and uh he said you know got three questions like i'd literally had 15 minutes with him
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the last question the third question i asked him was can you explain to me how you get rid of bad
karma and he said to me there's only one way if you've got one pound of bad karma to get rid of
that you can't eliminate it never goes like you were saying before about negative it never goes
he said but you've got to outweigh it with a not one pound of good karma you've got to outweigh
many pounds of good karma and just basically dilute it so that it goes here and good
goes up there i've never forgotten that it's quite a very good practical technique how you live
your life if you've got negative shit going on in your life flood it with positive stuff just
walking in the street hello how you going del how's your family mate or you know it's still
birthday mate i just want to wish a happy birthday and the best to your family or
these little little simple things that someone's walking along the street doing a tough hey yeah
mate don't know him might have he might look filthy dirty shake his hand make make someone's day
yourself what do you think about that yeah i love that it's a yeah it's i love the the the quote
around moving um outweighing it with with something else i feel like that's exactly what
needs to be done even from any any circumstance whatsoever it's funny though like how how
things can can work like realistically the only thing you need is is time a lot of the time as
well just to see things through like those shit periods or or karma whatever it is like time
eventually by the end of it
if you do enough good things good things will come back so it's important to be patient
it is and not be too tough on yourself yeah do you ever suffer from not being patient or too
tough on yourself i'm probably the least patient person in the world but i think one thing i like
to say is like be patiently uh impatient so i don't like being i don't like people that are
too patient because you've got if you're not trying to get somewhere you're never going to
get it so you just got to know that be impatient but be patient okay we've wrapped uh as in not a
we've been slapping about a lot of stuff out there yeah we are okay just tell me i want to get
back to your podcast yep let's talk about it it's dylan friends dylan friends dyl d y l and and
friends not dylan so i'm the first one and then and friends yeah um where do i find it spotify
spotify apple youtube yeah it's all there yeah okay so how's it going yeah really good um it's
funny i was telling the boys before i actually started the the show when i was up here in sydney
so i remember i'd been delisted from from carlton and uh the first time i told my friends i was like
what's up what's wrong with you what's wrong with you what's wrong with you what's wrong with you
and uh i was doing some weird stuff again sometimes it's a little bit moody stuff at the end of the day
And I was doing a show there and I couldn't take it with me
because it was owned by the club.
And I remember going, fuck, I don't want this to happen again.
I need to start my own thing.
So I was doing some radio work.
I used to go and do Triple M after footy training
when I was playing at the Giants.
That was the afternoon show?
Yeah, it was with Liam Flanagan and Mark Guyer up here at Triple M.
So I used to scoot in with Liam and MG.
And it's funny, actually, you've had the Hello Sport Boys in.
So Tom Birmingham was actually working as a producer of that show.
So I'd come in, we'd just sort of get chalking and he's like,
what do you want to do?
I was like, oh, look, mate, I want to start a podcast.
And he's like, fuck, I'll do a podcast called Hello Sport.
He goes, all you need to do is buy this equipment.
Anyway, so I went the next day, bought the thing and just started
just interviewing teammates.
It was just for fun and to get more experience because when I got delisted
from Carlton, I was like, hey, how am I going to get into the industry?
I don't have any skills.
I haven't played 300 games.
I haven't won premierships.
I haven't done all this.
So there wasn't really a spot for me to be like expert comments
because I wasn't really an expert in the field.
So I was like, fuck, I've got to find the back door here.
Like how can I show them that I'm actively trying to get more confidence
in the media sense, interviewing people, doing skits.
Anyway, so I started interviewing them.
I ended up getting another year on my contract and stayed another season.
And then for me, it was just about getting as many runs on the board
as I could with the show, getting more episodes so that then ultimately,
again, I'd take that to a radio station and be like, look, I've done the work.
Can I have a job?
Here's a little pack.
Here's a little pack.
It was like instead of just sitting on my ass, I was like,
I want to show you I've done something because I'd been there two years earlier
with nothing and I didn't get any opportunities.
And I remember I went back to Melbourne and I was working at 3AW,
which is the equivalent of 2GB here.
So it's sort of like an old school sort of AM radio and there's working
on the phones, answering.
You know, all the calls and putting together the run sheets,
learning how to become a producer on that.
And I didn't love it, but I learned a lot from it.
Like I learned a lot from it.
And I think even from a business term, I learned that it wasn't what I wanted to do
and I wanted to work for myself.
And ultimately, I got let go of that job.
I didn't really get let go actually.
I just didn't get shifted on anymore.
So I don't know if it's a sacking or I'm still on the books,
but just didn't get any more shifts.
And then from that period, I had to go like, all right,
I'm all in on the podcast because I was doing that at the same time.
The whole way through.
And it's just crazy how, you know, things work.
And as you said, the universe, when you make a faith, a leap of faith,
things, you know, automatically sort of open up.
And I remember at that period had no sponsorships,
but I was actually selling merchandise.
And the community that I had built was so amazing and incredible
and just wanted to support.
What sort of merch were we talking about?
Just like jumpers, T-shirts, hoodies, like just all those sort of things
was just selling.
But you made the merch or?
Yeah, like I'd order it from like a Gildan or an AS Color.
I met a screen printer in Melbourne.
I'd go get a screen printer.
Yeah, they said like Dylan Friends on the hoodies.
And that funded then my eventual business, which has now become Producee.
Like that was the thing.
Like I earned more money in my first year at a footy than I made in football.
From selling merchandise.
You must be good at that.
You must be good at the merch then.
The merch must be pretty good.
It wasn't that great, but it was just the fact that like it was the show
and the people that wanted to wear it and be a part of a community
was so amazing and so enthralled in what we were doing
and they loved the, you know, the independence of it.
They loved the never sort of hadn't been really done before in AFL.
So you weren't part of someone else's network?
No, I was just independent.
It was just my own thing.
And yeah, I'd learn a lot of a lot.
Like I'd actually had Andy Lee,
who was a big Carlton supporter.
He spoke at an event one time and he's an incredible business mind.
And I remember him saying about how Hamish and Andy always owned their products.
They never wanted to sell.
And it was something where I was like, oh, fuck, I'm going to do that.
Because when I left Carlton, I couldn't take the stuff that I'd done with them.
So it sort of had that always ticking in the back of my mind,
like own everything you do, like be, you know, bootstrap it, be the owner.
It might take a bit longer, but you're going to own everything you do.
So just talking about footy, if you're digging it, and I'm, as you know,
I'm an NRL guy, but, but I, I, you know,
I have to confess I have been a Collingwood supporter for many years,
only because Eddie's my mate and, and I sponsored him.
But, and usually that alienates me immediately against everyone who is not a
Collingwood supporter, but, but let's just talk about the season for 2025.
The Swans got the new coach.
What do you think?
What do you think Swans, what do you think is going to happen?
I like the Swans.
Like obviously I was a.
Like in terms of capability for the 2025.
I think it's really interesting.
I'm actually halfway through a documentary at the moment on Netflix.
I'm watching the Boston Red Sox.
Doc, have you heard of, do you follow the baseball?
I do, but I haven't, I know the story, but I haven't read it.
So I actually don't know the story, but I'm like, I'm watching it.
Cause I don't want to, I don't want to spoil it.
It's sort of an inevitable, inevitable what's going to happen.
I feel, but for those who haven't heard of it, it's, you know,
the New York Yankees are a powerhouse.
They, Boston Red Sox.
Had Bade Ruth, the curse of the Bambino, like they traded into New York and then
they just couldn't beat New York at all.
And you know, I'm at the stage now where it's sort of come into like Moneyball
and they're sort of building their team and things are happening, but it's
similar things sort of happening with the Swans, like, you know, the last
couple of grand finals have been pantsed on the big stage, they're a great team.
Like their talent is, is unbelievable.
Like players like Errol Goulden and oh, geez, like, you know, Papley, Heaney,
these guys are unbelievable.
Unbelievable players.
But unfortunately, just when it's got to that last day, they
haven't been able to, to nail it.
And I think with John Longmire leaving, um, recently has been really interesting
because he's probably like one of the best coaches that has ever been, you know,
around, it'd be interesting to see what happens if he goes to Tasmania or, or
whatever happens there, but Dean Cox from all reports is absolutely incredible.
And it was probably the decision that needed to be made.
Like, you know what it's like in the business world.
Like if you don't deliver, no matter how good you are, you've almost
just got to pass the baton on to the next person.
And to put those two together, um, to come around in a long wind winded statement.
I'm, I'm assuming the Red Sox go on to win a world series.
And it's like, if that team can do it, the Swans should seriously watch that
documentary because it'll give them a lot of confidence.
You reckon they got the talent?
They got the talent.
They got everything.
They're even their game plan.
But why, why do you think they fold?
Um, realistically, you can't, it's hard to say they've folded twice.
And unfortunately it's just been on the last day in September, which has been really
disappointing for them and their fan base.
So is that a matter of how they've been prepared as a team?
In other words, they haven't been prepared to be at the top of the game on the last game.
And in other words, they might've been peaking too early.
Um, it's a good question.
I look, if I knew the answer to that, I might be coaching him this year, but, um, I'm sure
Dean Cox knows what he's doing.
Um, this, the first time I lost against Geelong, they just got jumped by a better team, but
this time, you know, they had a great season.
Brisbane just came, they were more hardened for the, and they, Swans just couldn't bounce
Like I, yeah, it was a really, really disappointing game, but I do feel like they'll bounce back.
And, and on your show.
It'll be hard though the next time that they're in a grand final.
Like can you imagine that?
Two, two getting, like the mental, you talk about language and what you believe about
yourself, like all the language in the world you can train, but.
There's a belief there, or there are actually examples that it hasn't happened.
Like it's going to be hard to turn, but I, I do think they will be able to.
So do, I mean, would they, would, would what be going through the mind is that, uh, we
believe that we are on the big dance, at the big dance, we can't make it.
Do you think that's going to be an issue?
Well, it depends what their language is like, I suppose.
What would you say to them?
Well, I think, I don't think they'd be taking advice from me.
They all listen to this show.
Um, well, I'd say, I'd say to them.
They're an incredibly talented team.
I think that they can do whatever they want.
And Dean Cox as well, like at the, at the helm now, a fresh start, new team.
They'd be, they'd be just sort of licking their wounds and getting on with it.
I think you've got to move on.
You've just got to move on and not, and not sort of go back to that time.
But, um, Dean Cox is a, is a premiership player.
He's played with West Coast Eagles and, um, played in one of the, one of the
best areas of footy with Jard and Cousins and Daniel Kerr, and he's, he knows what to do.
So I think it's going to be really interesting time and footy.
Clubs, I think, uh, are really interesting, interesting places.
And I actually had Tom Harley on the podcast this year, who's the CEO of the Swans.
And a footy club, as much as it's about performance on field, it's just as good
as, it's only going as well as the business is going for sustained success.
So if you've got good people at the football club, you know, on the board.
That's how you become consistent.
You give yourself the best shot for a long time, because you look at other
clubs that might fly up the ladder.
For one year, win a couple of flags.
You know, you look at, um, Penrith and what they've been able to do over the last few years.
Like, yes, they're a good football team or a rugby team, but I'm sure they've got some
incredible administration as well.
Like that's probably that gets overlooked.
Well, in the, in the, in the Netflix series, is Boston building it from the top down?
They are, so they get in a guy that was from the Oakland A's.
They get in this other guy.
They had to admit, yeah, get the, get, get the administration right.
Re-engineer the joint.
And, uh, will you be interviewing?
I'd love to interview Dean.
I'll definitely get him on the pod.
So, and for 20, for 2025, what's ahead of you?
Big, big stuff, I suppose.
Like the, the business has been, um, yeah, rapidly growing.
We're sort of doubled each year, which has been cool.
Doubled in terms of audience, downloads.
Downloads, but also just even just our, like our revenue and everything's been really cool and cool to grow.
Like we're, um, businesses are called producey.
So we're split into two sort of fractions.
Like one is our sports network, Clubby Sports, which we have eight
podcasts that target, um, 18 to 35 year old men.
And, um, yeah, we target, we do all of our sales independently, um, all of our production independently.
And we, um, and we have that side of our business.
And then the other side is our, uh, production agency, which we work with brands to create, um, video content as well for their brand.
So they sort of work in twine.
Like if we work with a brand like Cobram Estate, which is one of our biggest brands.
The olive oil mob.
The olive oil, uh, extra virgin olive oil mob.
They, um, they work with us on our shows.
But then we go and shoot all their content in Sacramento and, um, shoot all their harvest, their fields as well, which has been really cool.
So as much as I'm loving the podcasting stuff and the interviews, I've found a real love of business.
And, you know, our team's grown to 16 now, um, we're an independent business.
We do everything ourself.
We want to, you know, it's taken us a lot longer to build that, but I'm really, um, grateful.
And I suppose, happy we've taken that longer, longer route to build it, but I own everything we do.
Is your, is your final question?
Final question though, is your business model, uh, advertising or sub-subscriptions?
So therefore you, so the, the, uh, the elements are you've got to build your audience, you've
got to build your engagement, you've got to know your audience so you can sell the audience
demographics into the advertising agency.
And then, then you, then you get the advertising dollars.
That's your model.
Events and merchandise as well.
So, you know, we have, um, those arms too.
So the, the, the four main, you know, if you talk about the pillars of health, um,
um, in a business sense, it's, it's podcasting, events, um, apparel, and then also our production.
And you, you produce for others.
So you've got a production team.
So if there's any spare time, you say, so that they're full capacity, I'll, I'll, I'll charge
somebody else to come and do a podcast, for example, or something like that.
Podcast, mainly like we, we can definitely help people with podcasts, but more content
for their business and shooting long stuff.
Cause like, it was sort of funny, the guys that work with me on the show.
It was, I realized like, you know, we realized early, we're using these incredible, um, you
know, almost cinematographers for 1% of the skill, you know, setting up a podcast is not
that hard, but these guys are going off and doing like incredible shoots.
And that's where we're working with the brands and the relationships and like, oh, can you
Now we're doing all their work for them as well, which has been really cool.
Well, that helps you get advertisers.
Because most advertisers don't have to say, oh, we've got to go and get an agency who
then goes out and gets people to do the photographs and the photography.
And the filming and et cetera.
Then you can help me.
You can even help write the scripts and stuff like that.
It's a one-stop shop.
One-stop shop for me.
And just working really tight with, with cool people has been amazing.
And they come back.
Those advertisers come back.
Well, uh, Dylan friends, I'm now, I can now happily say I'm one of your friends and I'll
I'll be tuning in, especially, uh, in 2025, um, to see what you're up to.
Um, thanks very much for coming to the show, mate.
We'll have to return.
So next time we're in Melbourne, we'll come on and we'll come on Dylan friends.
It's actually been really interesting for me.
I've, I've had a bit of a buzz, um, talking about some of the stuff we've talked about
for our audience.
I apologize if we wouldn't be too far out there, but far out there is where we want
That's what this call is straight talk for.
Thanks very much.
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