165 Peter Dutton The Opposition Leaders Story Vision For Australia

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I'm Mike Boris and this is Straight Talk.

Hey guys, just come back from holidays. One of my first podcasts for 2025.

I've done a couple, but two really important ones.

This year is an election year, 2025.

And what's really important is that we get to hear, all of us, most importantly you get to hear,

the reason why the two contenders for the role of Prime Minister, both at Labor and Liberal level,

Coalition level, get to tell their story, who they are, what they believe in,

what some of their policies are, respond to the opposition, et cetera.

So tomorrow morning, we'll be releasing the very first of my interviews,

which will be released with one of the contenders who's going to be the Prime Minister.

And the other individual, he has been interviewed as well, and that will be released sometime next week.

What's important for me to say to you is,

most of you know my politics.

I guess most people know where my politics stand, given my history.

But Straight Talk is not about politics.

Straight Talk is about me allowing the person who is our guest, your guest, to tell their story.

And they're going to put it in whatever context that they think is appropriate relative to where they want to be.

I'm not taking sides.

I'm not here judging anybody.

I'll have my opinions and my views.

But my job is not to pull someone's pants down.

My job is to allow them to tell their story so you can hear about it.

You make the judgment.

You're the person who's going to vote.

I don't want anything that I might do or say influence your outcomes.

So enjoy it, because they're both completely different people.

They both come from completely different sides of the fence.

They have completely different policies.

And...

They're both diametrically opposed in style.

So it's going to be really interesting to see where this all lands.

And I want them to come back.

And anyone else in the voting environment, anyone who's a potential minister, I want them to come back to Straight Talk.

So Straight Talk is going to deliver two podcasts in the next seven days with the two contenders from the two major parties.

Peter Dutton, welcome to Straight Talk.

Great to be with you.

Thank you, mate.

Your period working in the police, working as Minister for Home Affairs, you know, growing up as a kid who saw tough times.

Is it fair to say, then, what all those things have done that have influenced you, put you in a position you're prepared to make the tough decisions?

Yes.

For me, the leadership position and the position of Prime Minister is about making the decisions that are not always popular, but that you know are in our country's best interest.

Is that a Peter Dutton thing, though?

You'll call it out in order to make sure that we have the right rhythm in Australia economically?

Yes.

And I said when I came into the leadership of this party that I thought the Liberal Party and big business were estranged and that really our party is for small business.

It was the recession we had to have, according to Paul Keating.

Overspending can cause inflation.

Do you think this is all happening again?

Mr Potato Head, how do you deal with that sort of stuff?

What do you do about it?

Can you give us your take on Australia Day?

Apologise if I'm getting into too heavy stuff.

But Peter Dutton, welcome to Straight Talk.

Great to be with you.

Thank you, mate.

First.

Dave, this is my first podcast for 2025.

You're looking tanned and relaxed and back from holidays.

I'm pretty excited, mate.

And by the way, we're recording this on crazy, but the inauguration day was only five, six hours ago that President Trump was formally inaugurated into his position as President of the United States of America.

Do you see any omens out of that?

Do you feel something from that?

I think there is something in it.

It's not just in the United States.

When you look at it.

What's happening in Canada, you look at what's happening in other parts of the world.

I think there is, I mean, life's a cycle and there is certainly a recalibration, particularly in times where people are feeling financially stressed and under pressure and don't see the blue sky that was there a few years ago.

So I think it does do that.

I mean, it's pretty amazing when you think of the fact that Donald Trump has moved markets literally even before today.

He obviously had a significant hand in the negotiations between Israel and Hamas on the release of hostages as well.

It's a pretty formidable force when you think about that.

And he's only just been sworn in and he's obviously outlined some of his priorities and the reality will strike the incumbent reality of being president now.

So see how much he can actually score.

But there is momentum.

There's, you know, and there is a lot in that movement at the moment, I think.

And I might park a bit of that because I want to come back to some of that, if you don't mind, Peter.

And I don't actually, to be honest, I don't know where to, I was thinking about it like at length this morning, where to talk to Peter Dutton about, what to talk to Peter Dutton and what to talk to Peter Dutton about, where I go.

You know, it could go from the memes about you, you know, Mr. Potato Head, blah, blah, blah.

I could talk about that and we will say something about that in a moment.

But right down to.

Is Peter Dutton a hard ass?

Because of some of his portfolios that he might have had or the fact that he was once upon a time a policeman in Queensland.

Right down to why the hell would you want to become prime minister of the country?

Like, it's not like being a minister.

It's not like being a local representative.

You know, it's, you're right out there and it's completely exposed.

And you don't, to be honest with you, mate, you don't get paid that much relative to what you've got to do.

The time, effort.

Risk associated with everything else in your life.

And I thought about all those things and then I thought to myself, actually, I should want to know a bit more about the dude, Peter Dutton, the guy.

Because we don't know much about you.

No, that's true.

That's true.

I mean, I've been around a fair while, 23 years in parliament.

But if people are interested or exposed to politics, I suppose they have a greater interest and they've read or found out some more detail about you.

But you're right for most people.

You know, they're busy running their kids to school.

They've got sport and all sorts of commitments.

And, you know, they're happy to flick the channel when they see one of us on TV because, you know, it's just not their thing.

But as an election gets closer, people naturally have a natural sort of, you know, inclination or curiosity as to who it is they might vote for.

And for some of them, they don't make a decision until they pick up the pencil in the booth on election day, which is pretty amazing as well.

So I think it's right that those questions are asked.

And it's show business for ugly people, as they say.

And part of that is, you know, getting in the public eye and telling people your story and your vision and where you've come from, your influences.

And so, yeah, that's a natural thing.

Well, that's how the show normally runs.

It really is a bit of an opening up the door to Peter Dutton's life.

So maybe…

At the risk of boring you, but exciting me, you're a Queenslander.

Where were you born?

I was born in Brisbane.

Brisbane, boy.

And…

1970, a long time ago, mate.

It's not that long ago.

I wish.

Brothers and sisters?

Yeah, I'm the eldest of five.

So I've got a brother and three sisters.

And what did your dad and mum do?

Dad was a bricklayer.

So he started out labouring.

I think he hung blinds originally, left school at a young age.

And he came from a family of five.

So his father was a linesman for PMG, the predecessor to Telstra.

Postmaster General.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So he was a blue-collar worker.

And so he didn't grow up with a lot of money either, but good work ethic.

And in those days, too, I think there was a sacrifice that was made.

Some of the kids, they could afford to send to school and others not.

So he was a bricklayer and wouldn't have a lot of money growing up.

But…

But he worked really hard his whole life.

And he did well by, you know, by the end of his working life.

And, I mean, his back was buggered as a builder.

And he, I think, demonstrated to us a great work ethic.

And mum did the same.

She started out as a secretary and then took kids in at home in like a daycare scenario.

So lots of kids at our place before and after school.

You mean like mining them?

Correct, correct, yeah.

And that was just to sort of supplement, you know, the family income.

And then, yeah, so that was sort of the very early stages.

And through that period, there's 10 years between myself and my youngest sibling.

So, you know, so I also, I guess, as happens in bigger families,

you play a role in raising the younger ones as well, changing nappies

and carrying babies around.

And all the rest of it.

So, yeah, so I think that's, they're some of the memories that I would have.

And in that sort of scenario, do you ever reflect back on what you can take out of those experiences

and put into your life, not as a politician, but as Peter Dutton, the dad, the husband,

the friend, the brother, sister?

What did you get out of that period?

Well, I'm a big believer in the influences that then shape your life.

And that sort of nature-nurture argument.

But I think we, certainly I developed an entrepreneurial spirit fairly early on.

And it was probably money-driven at that younger age because, you know,

I knew that mum and dad worked hard for every dollar and there was never enough

with a family that size.

So, you know, I used to mow lawns and throw papers and worked at the local butcher shop

after.

I went to school from grade seven until I started uni.

And so there was always a conversation at home and I was always interested in the small

business element of it.

So at the end of the month when the accounts were done, you know, I'd sit around the kitchen

table and write out in my, you know, sort of teenage, young teenage handwriting, the

checks and mum or dad would sign it and I'd write the envelope out and put the stamp on

and put paid and the check number and whatever on the thing and then file.

The invoices.

And so I'd always sort of been fascinated with that small business element and also

exposed to it in the butcher shop as well and watching how that business ebbed and flowed

in good times and bad.

It's interesting.

Actually, I worked in a butcher shop, but I used to have to, because they, I don't know

about the period you're talking about, but they used to wrap all the meat up in, first

there was a white paper, then there was a, then they'd put a newspaper around it.

And if you collected the local newspapers in those days, those newspapers, you collect

the local newspaper, you got paid per pound in those days.

What were you doing in a butcher shop?

Like, were you cleaning up the mess after them at the end of a Saturday after they'd

all left or what was the deal?

Yes.

I mean, started out just as a butcher's boy and so cleaning the trays, cleaning out the

smokehouse, just washing up, cleaning out the cold rooms and, you know, mopping the

floor, cleaning the windows, all of, you know, all of those sort of menial tasks.

But, you know, I used to happily jump on the bike.

Right up and enjoyed getting paid at the end of the week.

And, you know, I mean, in those days, some weeks you get paid in meat because they just

didn't, you know, they couldn't afford to pay the wage bill.

And then I'd go home and try and flog the meat to mum and dad and recoup some of the

cash.

But like, I look back really fondly on that.

And that then morphed into, you know, serving on the front counter.

And I was a pretty shy kid, I think by any, you know, by any measure.

And that helped me.

And opened me up to a retail world where you're having to engage with customers.

And there's a lot of banter and, you know, a lot of back chat and sort of, you know,

smart-ass comments by butchers.

And they're a pretty rough crew back in those days as well.

So, you know, you got fair character assessments most days if you weren't, you know,

pulling your weight.

Actually, you say that with a fair bit of affection in your face and in your eyes.

It seems to me like, especially when you say you were a shy kid, do you feel as though,

you recognize that you were shy at the time and you felt as though you needed to pull yourself

out of that environment and therefore be part of the retail engagement?

Or do you think, you know, the butchers there said, look, this kid needs to be pushed up

front a little bit.

Let's just make him, put him through a bit of pain here and let him interact with, because

it'd be local people, people from around your area.

Correct.

You probably knew everyone.

No, it was exactly right.

In those days, anyway, you weren't going to the big, you know, shopping center.

No.

It was like a local thing.

Was it them recognizing shyness in you or was it you recognizing shyness in you?

I think probably it was more sort of a natural progression that, and I wanted to be involved

in that because of, you know, much easier work serving on the counter than, you know,

cleaning the trays up out the back.

So it's a bit of a combination.

I think as you get older as well, and you're probably, you know, I mean, the reality is

you're probably a cheaper wage than somebody else on the front counter as well.

And also, you become a jack of all trades.

There's a small business like that where there's only, you know, four or five people

working.

So, you know, you learn to cut up meat and you learn to package up as you said.

I mean, we were using plastic bags by then, but then wrapped in paper, not newspaper,

but white butcher's paper after that.

And then it was, you know, adding up the half a dozen items or whatever it was by hand on

the back of the-

With a pencil.

Yeah, correct, correct.

And so, but I think all of that.

It was probably a huge influence on me and what happened in, you know, in my life beyond

that and my investment in business and my interest I think was generated well and truly

back then.

Was it driven though through something like, I recognize that I want to earn some money

because, you know, my folks, we don't have enough dough or we don't have as much as someone

down the road.

Would you say it's a driven thing?

And I'm not necessarily want to sort of drill down too much on the butcher's job or the

butcher's, you know, boy job.

But more about, did Peter Dutton have ambitions to have more or was it just like, I want to

do this?

What was behind that as a kid?

I think it was driven by wanting to do more and to have more and to enjoy success.

I remember a lady used to come into the shop, Mrs. Holloway, I think her name was, and her

husband, I think was a bookie.

And she used to order.

No, I feel it.

And I mean, you know, we'd never had, I feel it.

I mean, it was an expensive cut of meat and, you know, I mean, it's sort of a quirky thing

even to mention, but it comes to mind and they obviously came from a lot of money, used

to turn up in a big LTD, I think at the time.

Oh, the gun car, the Ford LTD.

Yeah, absolutely.

Probably worth a couple hundred thousand dollars now.

But yeah, it was looking at the haves and have-nots and figuring that you wanted to,

you know, you work hard and, you know, and achieve as much as you could.

So basically because, you know, what you're painting here is sort of similar to my background

is a working class kid.

Yes.

With working class parents, which basically means they worked for a living.

Yes.

They weren't getting handouts from anybody.

And then of course you finished off school, you went to university.

Yes.

And did you, but I know you became a policeman.

Can you just give me the timelines around that territory?

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure.

I always wanted to be a policeman.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

From a young age, for whatever reason, you know, I just, I liked the excitement of it.

I took mum's advice though, which you should do by default, but she wanted me to go to uni

and, you know, and no one in our family had been to university before.

So I got into a Bachelor of Business, which I started off as accountancy, which I enjoyed

and then detested.

And so I deferred that to join the police force, which is what I really wanted to do.

And then I finished my degree part-time and I switched over to do public administration

and did some law electives and thought that was more practical in terms of advancing in

the police or knowing that if I wanted to go into politics at some stage, that might

be of some practical benefit to me more so than accountancy.

But, you know, the accountancy skills also.

You know, have been important in my life, particularly when we were in business as well.

Would you have seen your family go through recession periods?

Yes.

During that, you know, dab in a brickie and or in the building trade, there would have

been, particularly in those days, periods where tools down, no work.

Did you go through those periods?

Yeah, it was boom bust, right?

So, you know, you could, the building sector is, I think, different today.

My sons are doing a carpentry apprenticeship at the moment.

And I mean, you know, the firm he works for seems to have a lot of work on constantly

and there's demand.

And, you know, we know all of that with the housing situation at the moment.

But in those days, you know, I vividly remember, you know, dad could go and price 10 jobs and

get none or he could price 10 and get 10.

And it was a cutthroat industry as well.

I'm sure that's still the case today.

But a lot of, you know, low margin people, particularly when the economy was contracting,

people were...

They would cut their prices dramatically, which you would expect, I suppose, in sort

of a free market and people chasing work.

And so that was definitely a discussion around the kitchen table of, you know, in our family.

So politics and Keating and high interest rates and all of that was part of a discussion

over a longer period.

And it was also, I mean, in terms of sort of my political interest, you know, I finished

school in 1987.

Which was the end of the Peter Peterson era.

So all of the scandal and his dominance as premier over that period, you know, was splashed

across the front pages of the newspaper each day and on the news of a night time.

So you were exposed to it.

And I think they were sort of the early political influences for me as well.

And also during that period, you would have been 18, but it was the Hawke period and Hawke-Keating

period and then became the Keating period.

But it was a period of extraordinarily high interest rates.

Big inflation.

Yes.

Big government spending.

Yes.

From mid-80s to late 80s and to the early 90s.

It was the recession we had to have.

Correct.

According to Paul Keating.

And there was a bit of a housing problem in that house prices or people with homes were

paying somewhere between 80% and 20% interest.

And a lot of people had to sell their houses, me being one of them.

Yes.

And with families.

And I'll never forget that period in my life.

And whilst I think Paul Keating did a lot of great things, particularly superannuation

and all that sort of stuff, I also take the view that that government, that administration

overspent, overspent.

And that's the conversation that's being held in the United States right now.

And that's a Trump conversation, pretty radical conversation there, especially with the way

Musk is coming into the whole deal and they're going to cut government spending.

But it is a conversation now in Australia.

Yes.

Overspending can cause inflation, irrespective of how much Dr. Jim dances around it.

And I don't want to get too heavy on the politics because this is an interview about you.

But what do you think about that when you think back to the late 80s and 90s?

Do you think this is all happening again?

I do.

There's sort of an eerie deja vu for me when you think about that period.

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You know, the late 80s, early 90s, and the period now, the Reserve Bank governor, I think,

has done a great job.

She's maintained her independence.

She's stoic, and she has been guided not by the politics or the pressure that she feels

from the treasurer, but by her training.

And she's been brought up in a model where they have an independence.

We may not always agree with the Reserve Bank governor.

And the comments sometimes seem a bit insincere or whatever over the years.

But I think Michelle Bullock has really switched the light on for a lot of Australians when

she's making a statement of the obvious, that if the government continues to spend like

they have, spend an extra $347 billion, something of that nature, that is a lot of money to

pump into the economy, which does fuel inflation and keeps interest rates high.

I also think the energy debate as well, I think we sort of sometimes brush over this

and people...

See the increases in their electricity bills and their gas bills.

But the fact is that that feeds into inflation as well to grocery and food prices, because

cold storage is more expensive, because it's high energy use, et cetera, fertilizers, and

all of that ultimately is passed on in grocery prices.

So I do think it's a debate again.

The thing that's different in my mind today that stands out most is that you've had asset

price inflation.

So people's homes...

They've gone up dramatically in value if they owned a home before COVID.

And they've got equity there now, whereas in the 80s and 90s, they didn't have that

equity, I don't think.

I don't think there were the buyers, the demand for the product then that there is now, that

if your house price has gone up and you've got a million dollars of equity, you're in

default interest, the bank probably would have sold you up pretty quickly.

In the 80s and 90s.

In the 80s.

100%.

100%.

And probably at a fire sale price, and you probably ended up with a debt walking away

from it or bugger all net position.

Whereas now, I think the bank's probably, because of the publicity, more loath to sell

people up.

But also, they're earning default interest knowing that there's a million dollars of

equity, and there's probably 10 buyers lined up at an auction to buy the place.

So there's very little risk.

So there's no great rush to sell it.

And that has a different psychological effect.

Because if you're walking...

If you're walking away with nothing or with debt from a house sale, then that's a dark

cloud.

If you're walking away with a million dollars, you might not be able to buy the house that

you want, or maybe you end up compromising and buying a cheaper house, or if you've got

$100,000 equity, whatever the numbers are, it's a different psychological equation today

than it was then.

Now, maybe house prices are contracting, and maybe people have paid over odds over the

last couple of years, and they're going to find themselves in a negative equity position.

But there's still sort of a supply drought, so there's still demand for housing, which

will probably balance the equation out, I would have thought.

But yes, I mean, that was the dynamic back then.

That's a...

For a budding prime minister, that's very interesting to see such a full analysis.

I mean, that's my game.

And I'm sitting here talking to a PM who's got to be across a whole lot of things if

he becomes PM, not just economics or the Australian economy.

That's a pretty articulated analysis of what's going on right now.

I probably couldn't have got a better analysis from Stephen Koukoulis, who, by the way, he's

a Labor guy.

He's my economist guy that hangs out with me.

He was Julie Gillard's chief economist.

Koukoulis would do exactly the same analysis as that.

In fact, I've had the...

I've had conversations with him about exactly that.

How the hell do you become...

How did you become so...

I don't know.

How did you know this stuff?

I mean, our prime minister was asked about the cash rate prior to the previous election.

He didn't even know it.

How do you know about this stuff?

I just think it's the influences that you've had in your life and your experiences and

what you bring to the table.

And I've always had an interest in property and I've renovated a few places.

I've sold them.

I've split a couple of 32-perch blocks, which was the thing to do years ago.

32-perch.

How big is that?

It's 809 square meters.

Right.

So in those days, if you had a 20-meter frontage, you could split it into two blocks.

Subdivided.

Subdivided, yeah.

And so, look, I've had that interest in property.

I was probably a geeky kid reading the Fin Review.

I was a geeky kid reading the Fin Review at a pretty early age.

And my 20-year-old, who is interested in sort of current affairs and sort of the world, I

suppose, but I never see him reading a newspaper, never watches the news, and obviously gets

a lot of social media feed, which is fine.

But I bought him an AFR subscription.

And I said, mate, you've got to start reading the AFR and get a sense.

And in those days, I don't know, I'd probably still sell it, but I used to buy the Money

magazine or Home.

Maybe you probably contributed to it back in the day and wrote articles.

I'm not sure.

But so, yeah, I think I've had that interest in particularly housing.

I think also the home is such an important anchor for a stable relationship, for raising

of children, an asset that increases in value.

You can bequeath to your children or that can set you up in retirement.

And it's also the underpinning of small business because most of the lending is against, you

know, secured against a home.

So for me, that home ownership is really essential to the Australian culture and psyche.

And I think it really upsets me that a lot of younger people now have lost the belief

that they'll ever own a home and they'll be lifetime renters.

And I just think that's, you know, a tragedy.

It's...

If I...

Because I'm just...

Because most people just see you as Peter Dutton, former policeman and a minister for

various portfolios.

And all of a sudden, Peter Dutton just give me an analysis, an economic analysis, which

I probably couldn't put any better myself.

And that's what I've spent my whole life doing.

So I guess it's...

Apart from you saying you're interested in it, it's something you do an analysis on.

It's not just because you want to be...

The prime minister is probably...

Am I getting it?

Am I correct?

I mean, you generally are interested in this stuff.

Yeah, very much.

Very much.

And if I could take it beyond the economics of it, are you genuinely interested in this

stuff because what it represents, the fabric of being Australian?

Yes.

And again, back to the earlier point we discussed, I mean, the influences, I think, shape who

you are and your attitudes, obviously, good and bad.

And for me, it's been...

A tool of wealth creation and opportunity for Kiralee and I and for our children.

And I think my kids who are 22, 20 and 19 have that aspiration.

They're saving like crazy to try and buy a house because I think we've instilled that

in them that it's an aspiration that you should strive for and there's good that comes from

it.

And if you sacrifice and you save and...

And you go without, then there's sort of a longer-term opportunity and upside.

And for me, for a kid who came from a working-class suburb, property was an opportunity to try

and move to the next stage or to have an opportunity to move beyond that.

And I really think it's...

Sad that, as I say, that that opportunity might be not available to a generation of

young Australians and renting and for some people, there's no choice and I respect that.

But I just think if we can provide that financial stability and security, then it's better for

relationship stability and better for family and therefore better for society and the country.

So I think there are a few elements to the whole housing picture and how significant a part of our culture that is.

And what you're painting to me, though, is a picture of someone who would not be considered

to be a typical liberal just looking after the rich and privileged.

Would it be fair to say that liberal values, liberal party values have moved down the scale

a little bit across more to the middle or something like that?

And could you...

I mean, it's the very conversation and the very type of people that Trump's getting to vote for him now.

Do you think there's been a change in what liberal party represents as opposed to what

they've always been typically drawn as or put out there as?

I think it's a really interesting point.

I think both parties have changed a bit when you look at their modern form.

Labor and liberal.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, Robert Menzies, when he set the liberal party up, had as one of the cornerstone beliefs,

of the party home ownership.

And the forgotten people.

Absolutely.

Which was essentially the tradies and the blue collar workers and...

Your dad.

Correct, 100%.

And it's aspiration, a word that we don't speak of enough in this country anymore.

And reward for effort and wanting more for your children and your grandchildren

than your grandparents could have ever conceived.

And so, in my mind, it's...

It's a reconnection with some of those values.

I think the liberal party, if we look back over the last 20 or 30 years, drifted too

close to big business.

I said when I came into the leadership of this party that I thought the liberal party

and big business were estranged and that really our party is for small business and

for the young people in tech startups and women working at home with...

With a young baby with an online business and trying to create an opportunity for a

cafe owner to go and open a second and third store without regulation and taxation killing

their dream and their expansion plans.

And that, for me, is what the liberal party is about.

The Labor Party in its modern form has moved closer to inner city green voters.

And that's where the prime minister...

If you look at...

His seat...

I mean, Marrickville is a greens area, effectively.

And so, his battle for the last 20 or 30 years has been with the greens and trying to stop

them from taking his seat.

And I think the Labor Party's drifted more away from the worker, frankly, to even the

big end of town, but certainly the more gentrified part of society.

And so, there has been a maturing of the parties for...

For good and for bad.

Now, the prime minister would say, oh, that's nonsense.

They're still the party of the worker.

But there are very few workers who are in parliament now.

They're professional union secretaries and people who have been involved in the upper

echelons of the union movement.

And it's very hard for the train driver or for the school teacher to find their way into

Labor Party pre-selection now.

And I want to make sure...

I mean, we don't need to be at odds with big business, but big business is able to take

care of itself if we provide the right economic settings.

Smaller business doesn't have a general counsel.

They don't have an HR department and they don't have in-house advisors.

They're doing the books of a nighttime themselves.

And for me, that's the Liberal Party that can connect with people in outer suburbs and

working class people who might have seen the Liberal Party in the past.

And that's not my vision for our party or indeed for the country.

I've often wondered why, and this goes for both parties, but I've often wondered why

the minister for small business or the portfolio of a small business usually gets tucked under

the treasurer and it's a junior ministry, whereas everybody talks about, everybody talks

about small business in Australia, particularly in Australia being the engine room of the

country.

We employ most of the people in the country.

We pay the largest amount of tax in bulk.

I'm sure the banks pay a lot of tax and the mining companies pay a lot of tax, but if

you look at the bulk of tax, it comes from the small business, small business owners

in the country.

As I said, we employ most of the people.

I've often wondered why in a policy sense that the minister for small business is a

small portfolio.

Have you ever thought about that?

Well, no, again, I think it's a good point.

And in government, we had a focus of putting small business into the cabinet.

And having those discussions and really elevating.

And again, it's probably a natural instinct for a lot of us in the senior leadership team

or across our party, actually, if I think about the front bench and the back bench.

Most have come from a small business background or had an exposure to have employed staff

or been involved in their own small business life and that, I think that really comes into

many of the conversations that we have about tax.

And I think that's a good point.

And I think that's a good point.

I think that's a good point.

It's the lifeblood of the economy.

Interestingly, I mean, on the weekend, we made an announcement about providing support

for small businesses to be able to deduct up to $20,000 of expense on meals effectively

in cafes and clubs and pubs and restaurants, et cetera.

Without FBT.

Without FBT and without the complication that exists there now.

And I was surprised.

Actually, when I looked at how many businesses would be eligible for it, about two and a

half million businesses, because we set the criteria at businesses with 10 million or

less turnover, which represents actually 98% of small businesses in the country have 10

million or less turnover.

And I was really surprised by that stat and the whole idea of the policy is that a local

real estate agent could take the sales staff at the end of the month down to a local pub

and buy a meal.

The local builder can take his tradies down to the pub on a Friday if they've completed

a big job and a big contract's just been won by that manufacturer.

Take the sales staff out or take your customers out and try and build up the business.

And it also helps the sector, which I think is really struggling at the moment with big

input costs, big wage bills, a lot of compliance, and probably seeing a downturn in their business.

Yeah.

In their trading numbers.

But yeah, I was just struck by it.

And be a tax deduction.

And it's a tax deduction.

Correct.

Correct.

Up to $20,000.

Without the company being obliged to take FBT out.

Subject to FBT and the recording and the complication that comes with it.

And we've excluded alcohol from it and not that alcohol's not going to be purchased as

part of the meal out, but the boss will pick up that, I think happily pick up the tab for

the drinks.

And by excluding it, I think we've actually leveraged the 20,000 into a bigger spend within

those businesses, maybe to 30 or $40,000.

And that I think is going to be good for employment.

It's going to be good for those businesses that are probably finding it a bit tough at

the moment.

Because I remember during the COVID period, and actually just a bit prior to that, under

the Morrison admin, under Josh Fryberg, he introduced a couple of times or on one occasion,

an increase in the investment allowance write-off.

And I have so many people, because I run the mental podcast and I get so much interaction,

Peter, from people saying, if we could increase the write-off, it doesn't have to go to 150

grand, which is what it was during the COVID period for obvious reasons.

But I think right at the moment, it's like 20 or something like that.

It's 20 and we've announced that it'll go to 30.

You've announced it's 30.

Yeah.

So the instant asset write-off.

Which I think was a huge win for small businesses.

And again, in terms of, I don't know, I don't know.

I don't know.

I think it was, I think it was a huge win in terms of depreciation schedules and the

rest of it just made it easier in terms of the investment decision.

And it obviously spurred that activity.

I was worried at the time because I was in the discussions where we made some of those

decisions.

I was worried that it was going to be a big bring forward of capital investment and that

we'd see a real drought in the coming years.

But it seems to have washed out quite effectively.

And I think it's saved a lot of money.

It's saved businesses and generated economic activity that was well needed at the time.

I do want to deal with a period whilst you were a policeman.

Let's just deal with that now.

So when did you join the cops?

I joined in 1990.

State police?

Yes.

And you mentioned you always wanted to be a policeman as a kid.

What was your role?

Did you get to rank sergeant?

I got to the lofty rank of detective senior constable.

Detective senior constable.

Yeah.

What does that mean?

Well, it means about 10 ranks short of commissioner and only one rank up from constable, which

is the lowest rank.

Not much pay.

No.

But again, in those days, or maybe it's still the case now, but you used to be able to say

do an 8 to 4 shift or a 2 to 10, 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. shift.

And then you could do what they called a special, which was like a road works and it was on

overtime.

And as a young bloke, I used to jump into that.

And do all of that.

And then I'd have some part-time business on the side anyway, which ended up being childcare.

And so-

You were minding kids?

Or like your mom?

No, no.

I ended up...

I bought a block of land, which I wanted to develop into a childcare center.

And I ended up in the interim running it as a landscape yard just to try and generate

some cash to pay the rents.

You were running it like that?

To pay the mortgage.

Yeah, yeah.

And it wasn't too conducive to happy relationships at the time because you're working sort of

back to back shifts.

But again, and ultimately the reason I left the police was I'd opened the third childcare

center by then and it just became too much to do both jobs.

But yeah, look, I had a great career, nine and a half years.

I loved it.

I did the first about 15 months in uniform and then I was a detective after that for

the balance of the period.

And made some lifelong friends, saw the best and worst that society has to offer.

And again, it's one of those experiences that can't help but shape you and your perspective

and your priorities in life for the way you raise your children, the way that you make

decisions.

And for me, what makes me so passionate about protecting women and children as well, all

of that was as a result of seeing domestic violence.

Working in the sex offender squad and seeing all the realities of life.

Does it just make you somebody who's aware of how crappy life can be for somebody, particularly

if they're in a domestic violence situation?

Does it just do that and therefore make you really aware of those processes and make you

sort of fairly strident about protecting those individuals?

Or does it also give you...

A sort of an insight into why people become these sorts of people and sort of against

which you start to build a bit of empathy about.

I'm not saying being empathetic towards criminals, but have an understanding of why people...

Because a lot of times it's circumstances, their own circumstances, their own crappy

lifestyle.

There might've been a mum and dad who were drunks and bashed the hell out of them as

well.

Do you get that sense too?

Because you've been painted as Peter Dutton, the ex-copper, who's a hard ass.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And this conversation here on Straight Talk is about finding out who you really are.

And if that's the dude, that's the dude, tell me.

But do you sort of get a sense of also, there is some circumstance, it can't happen, it

should never happen, but there are circumstances why these things happen?

I think the honest answer is it's a combination of those things.

So I think my starting position would be that there's never a justification for violence.

I think that's the thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think there are circumstances.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's the thing.

Regardless of your own circumstances, assaulting your wife or your children or sexually assaulting

someone, I just don't see that there's any excuse for that-

No justification.

Not at all.

But when you step back into the backgrounds of some of the offenders and you see that

they were victims themselves and you see that they grew up in an abusive environment, you

look at the fact that they've bounced around between different foster families and when

you look at that, you think, well, I mean, what chance did they have when their innocence,

their childhood innocence has been robbed of them?

So, yes, I think there's an empathy that comes with it.

But there's also, for me, when I was Home Affairs Minister, we put $80 million into

the Australian Centre to Counter Child Exploitation because when I came into that portfolio and

asked the question of the Australian Federal Police, what operations do you have underway?

What focus do you have on child protection?

There was an obvious focus and a priority, but it just wasn't backed up by the statistics

and the arrests that have been made and the interventions.

And I gave direction to the Commissioner that I wanted that.

And I gave direction to the Commissioner that I wanted that as a priority because I believe

really passionately in the fact that those formative years, so education is important,

a stable environment, and also that the sanctity of that childhood is paramount.

So, why should we tolerate a situation where kids are being brought up in that circumstance?

And we're not going to solve every problem, but for me now, there will have been hundreds,

if not thousands.

of lives of young children that have been saved or pedophile networks that have been

closed down as a result of that investment and the prioritisation that we gave to the AFP.

And when people ask, why would you be in politics and the money and exposure and public and

the memes and all the rest of it, it's for that because there's an incredible sense of

satisfaction that you get from being able to make those decisions that can positively

impact.

And sometimes.

You know, on sort of the hard ass aspect, you know, I cancelled 6,300 visas or something

when I was Minister, more than any Minister since Federation.

But that's also sort of a, again, sort of a deliberate decision to prioritise the cases

and to look at, and probably just a work ethic, you know, element to it as well.

I mean, I just ploughed through those cases and looked at them on their facts and there

are some terrible circumstances, but they're where you decide for somebody to stay, even

if they've committed a minor offence.

But the next one you look at, you go back and there are six or eight or 12 victims and

you think, well, why hasn't this guy been booted before now?

He's raped, you know, half a dozen kids who have been involved in drug trafficking and

arrested a dozen times.

Like, why is he here?

There are millions of people, good people who want to come to Australia and let's give

them the golden ticket and kick out somebody who is...

who's taking us for a ride.

So, yeah, I guess all of that feeds into the perceptions and to your attitudes, et cetera.

That's a very interesting point, which is sort of where it leads me to, you know, it's

a big issue.

It's a big discussion and an issue, wokeism.

And it seems to be that there is this trade-off between empathy towards the people who have

bad circumstances and they commit crimes.

And therefore...

Well, let's not jail them.

Let's give them another chance and another chance and another chance.

That piece compared to actual victims.

And there's been a reticence, I think, in a lot of the more established countries around

the world.

There's been a reticence to make that call.

And of course, there is a change.

You mentioned a little bit earlier about Canada, US, Europe.

There's a change.

We're starting to say, you know what?

Let's do what's best for the greater good.

Yes.

And let's just acknowledge that there are issues on the other side of it.

But the greater good far outweighs the minority.

Do you think we've been concentrating too much on the minority for too long a time, so much

so that the greater good or the greater majority are missing out or being affected?

I think there is truth in that.

And the approach that I always took to it was, what's in our country's best interests

as sort of the first lens to look through?

And then go down into the detail of the individual and whether, even though he's offended, he

might have children, he might have a spouse with a terminal illness, there might be other

extenuating circumstances that you would consider in that individual case, the likelihood of

repeat offending and whether there'd been a history of that.

There are many factors that go through your mind in a decision-making process.

And for me, I've always felt that the primary responsibility is to, what's in our country's

best interest?

Because what defends the values and what provides for a societal benefit and an environment

that Australians would expect and have grown up with and want to bequeath to their children

and that obviously they want delivered from their members of parliament.

So that's pretty broad.

That's a basic approach, I'm sure, and nothing revolutionary in it.

But that's how I saw it.

And I'm sure that was influenced in part by my days as a police officer and as a detective

and investigator and going through methodically those cases to try and find the justice in

the end for it.

And yes, I think a minority have...

In some cases, trump the rights of the majority.

And I think most people are law-abiding and 99% of people who come to our country want

to do the right thing.

And we have an incredible migrant story in this country that we don't talk enough about,

to be honest, particularly the post-Second World War migration period where people came

with nothing, were laborers and have gone on to make a lot of money or see their kids

educated and provide huge opportunities.

So...

But I just think we live in a great country.

We should be prepared to defend it.

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And there's, you know, there's also an element of society and universities and others in

in big business and industry super funds who make their money

out of a woke agenda.

That's their business, right?

I saw something recently where you had a crack at a couple of banks

who I mentioned but who just made a decision they weren't going

to lend money down in Tasmania for logging.

And it's like they're making decisions relative to influences

that they think are better for their brand as opposed

to what's better for Australia.

And I think it was in the Finview last week, the article.

And I guess what I'm getting to, Peter, is that your period

at working in the police, working as Minister for Home Affairs,

perhaps you're growing up as a kid who saw tough times

but at the same time saw people recover from tough times

just through effort and merit.

Is it fair to say then maybe what all those things have done

that have influenced you, put you in a position you're prepared

to make the tough decisions?

Yeah.

Less popular, just tough.

Yes.

I mean, if you want to be a super popular character,

then become a movie star or whatever it might be.

But for me, the leadership position and the position

of Prime Minister is about making the decisions that are not always popular

but that you know are in our country's best interests.

And sometimes I've seen examples over the years with some Ministers,

who know there are glaring problems in their portfolios

but are either too scared to make the decisions that need to be made

to resolve it, even if it's causing harm to business

or to individuals, and they don't want the drama

and they're just happy to hand over the problems to whoever's coming

in behind them at the next reshuffle or whatever it might be.

I just can't abide that.

I think in this job, you spend a lot of time away

from your family.

You know, we do over 200 flights a year.

We're in a different hotel every night.

You're on the road a lot.

You're in Canberra for 20 weeks of the year.

You miss out on different milestones for your kids, et cetera.

Why would you do that?

And then at the end of your career, nobody could tell you

or explain even to their friends what you stood for

or what you believed in.

And I think better to be known for what values you have,

what you have and what good you want to do for the country

than seeking to offend nobody.

And I think that's with the banks.

I mean, my view was that, and I've said this to some of the CEOs,

that I think they've got a household brand and an iconic brand

that's been supported by generations of Australians.

And I think with the big paycheck and good luck to them,

but I don't have to grudge that at all,

but with that comes a moral obligation to give back to our country.

And to do what's right.

And if the government of the day determines that logging in Tasmania

or salmon farming in Tasmania is a legal activity.

A legal activity.

A legal activity.

Then why do the banks decide that they have a higher calling

to stop lending to that business?

Because they think that it's what the proxy voters want to hear

or that it'll make them more popular online.

And-

Because it might be.

Some social media movement or whatever it might be.

I don't get that.

I mean, they should be looking at the credit worthiness of the applicant.

They should be looking at the equity position.

They should be looking at the cashflow

and making a decision as to whether that person is bankable or not.

Their job is not to decide that that customer is involved

in an industry that's offensive to their brand.

I'm pretty sure that they still bank outlaw motorcycle gang members.

I'm pretty sure that they still bank,

the workers and are happy to take the margin in the loan that they've written for that forestry

worker, but somehow they want to make themselves a hero. And I just don't think that's their role.

And that's a pretty strong position to take. And that sort of takes me back because I'm old

enough to remember this period quite well when Peter Costello as treasurer and John Howard was

as prime minister back in the early 2000 period, actually about 1999, 2000 when I launched my

original business, were very vocal about how unfair banks were to consumers. And whilst it

may not have been that popular because the banks have a massive lobby and they are the biggest

small group of taxpayers in the country. And by the way, very good banks. And we have a great

banking system here, the safest in the world. Yes, I agree.

And we survive GFCs and all that sort of stuff. But at the same time, they stood up to them and

didn't have a crack at them, but they called them out.

We haven't had that for a long time. Joe Hockey did it for a period of time,

but we haven't had that for a long time. And normally people say, oh, the liberal is going

to protect the banks. Is that a Peter Dutton thing though? You'll call it out. You are prepared to say

what might be unpopular in the newspaper. It might be unpopular at the big end of town

in order to make sure that we have the right rhythm in Australia economically.

Yes. And I'm not advocating that the

margins should be capped at X. I'm not suggesting that their profit is to be distributed evenly

amongst every Australian. I'm saying to them that they have a banking license and with it

comes a responsibility. And if you're in the business of banking, you're not in the business

of politics and you haven't been elected as a representative of 100,000 people in a

seat somewhere, you're a banker. And your job is to maximize the return for your shareholders,

to have a strong balance sheet, as you pointed out before, and we've got capital adequacy rules,

et cetera, for banks. And I was Peter Costello's assistant treasurer many years ago. But

it's, in my mind, a statement of the obvious. If you've got a legal business and they've got

the ability to repay their loan, they've got a good business and it's profitable,

and you're assessing that against an objective criteria, as you would with the next customer

that comes through the door, that's the business. And that's where it should stop. And telling us

that we can't celebrate Australia Day or that they want to become involved in this social cause,

but not that one, the companies who gave significant money, tax or shareholders money,

to the voice campaign, all of that. I just,

is beyond the remit of their responsibility. And their responsibility is to run a profitable

business, to provide an adequate return to their shareholders and take care of their customers. And

I don't think it's too complicated. It's interesting you mentioned Australia

Day. And Australia Day is only a few days away from this conversation. Australia Day

has been a football that's been kicked around by everybody, councils, big business,

individual groups, et cetera. Can you give us your take on Australia Day?

What's Peter Dutton think about that? Well, I've had a few things to say about it

over the last couple of years in particular, but also in relation to the flag as well. I have a

great deal of respect for the Indigenous flag and the Torres Strait Islander flag, but it's not our

national flag. I spoke before about President Trump's inauguration earlier today. It was done

under an American flag, not under other flags that might be of significance to

parts of the population in the United States, in the United Kingdom,

under one flag. In Canada, they meet under one flag. It's not to say that we have disrespect for

people of Indigenous heritage or people who really believe passionately about what the flag,

the Indigenous flag represents to them. But my view is that we can't be united. We can't

deal with reconciliation and the hurt of white settlement in this country. If we're separating

people into three tribes and living under three different flags, ultimately Australians, whether

you came here with a bag and a dollar in your pocket in 1955, or you came here yesterday and

became an Australian citizen, or you can trace your heritage back 60,000 years, we are all equal

Australians. We don't have different standards of citizenship in this country. And it's why I feel

so passionately about the...

The attacks on the Jewish community at the moment. I can't abide any part of our society being

treated differently to the next part of society, on religious belief, on political belief,

the color of your skin, whatever. And to me, Australia Day is a celebration of

our Indigenous heritage and our migrant story, which started with the British coming over,

but has now melded into people coming from the four corners of the earth. And again,

as I said earlier, I just don't think we celebrate the great stories of Greeks and Italians and

people who came from Eastern Europe and came from Vietnam and came from

other parts of the world and have become medical researchers and members of parliament and

successful business people. And I think for millions of those people who got sworn in,

who became Australian citizens on Australia Day, that is a significant day for them.

And I think for millions of those people who got sworn in, that is a significant day for them.

And we have to deal with the hurt of a part of the Indigenous population that is represented in

January 26. But I think there are other ways in which we can provide that support and that

practical support. But if we continue to bash ourselves up as a country, and that goes on and

on and on, and it's taught in schools and universities, I don't think we can be

the best country that we need to be. And that's why I feel passionately about it. It's not driven

or motivated by anything other than how can we provide the best for our people and for our future.

How did we get there though? Because it is a thing, you know, wokeism. And in fact,

it's nearly, has been particularly over the last 12 months for me anyway. It's sort of scary to take

a position on something because you're worried you're going to get canceled because like your

livelihood. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, the thing you're passionate about, it depends on audience and let's call it

acceptability as opposed to popularity. How did we get to that position, do you think? I mean,

was that a global movement?

It's a global movement. I mean, it's starting to wane now, I think. And again, it's a life cycle

and it's just getting to a different part of the debate. And it'll be advanced now with

President Trump being elected. And if there's a change of leadership in Canada and

when Jacinda Ardern's gone in New Zealand, I think Anthony Albanese is trying to grasp onto it. But

I just think most Australians have moved on. And I also think in our country,

the voice allowed people to say, you know, thank goodness, I thought I was the only one

who thought that, you know, this wasn't necessary, wasn't a good thing for our country.

I want to help Indigenous people, but just didn't think this was the way to do it.

And all of a sudden it turns out, well, there are six, seven out of 10 in your workplace that think

exactly the same thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think

that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing.

the same way as you do. So I think it's allowed people a little bit of breathing space

and they're more inclined to be able to speak out. So where does it come from? I think there are a

lot of universities who have worked on this. I think it's a movement of the left. And again,

this is a business model for some people. And I just don't believe that we should discriminate

on the basis of gender or race or on any basis. And I think this is,

when you look at part of the outcome in the United States election,

when they look at young males who are moving, I think a lot of young males feel

disenfranchised and feel ostracized. And they're saying, well, hang on, I have nothing but respect

for women. And I would never treat my female friends differently than my male friends,

but I'm being told that I'm some sort of ogre or I have some belief structure, which is true.

And to that, which I know is what I hold in my heart. And there's, I think, just a point where

people are fed up and they're pushing back and saying, well, why am I being overlooked at work

for a job, three jobs running when I've got a partner at home and she's decided to stay at home

with three young kids and I want a promotion at work so that I can help pay the bills at home.

And so I,

I,

I,

I,

I think all of that has, has morphed. I also think there's, to your point, Mark,

I mean, a lot of CEOs who have public listed companies who have got HR and marketing people

saying to them, don't enter into these debates, don't say anything. Whereas a generation ago,

the CEOs of BHP or Kohl's or Meyers or, you know, the big sort of iconic brands

felt an obligation to be on the front page of the Fin, advocating for tax change or for

industrial relations reform or for, you know, workplace, whatever it might've been. And, and, and now

they're, they only feel that they can comment on, in support of some of the white causes because

their marketing people are telling them that will get them greater popularity online. I, I, again,

I just think it's a level of weakness that doesn't serve our country, our country's best interests.

So, and I, I listened to President Trump this morning at 4am and after,

and his inauguration, I listened to his speech and he said, from, and it's a different structure

there. He can make these decisions, of course, because the, you know, the president has these

executive powers, which prime ministers won't have, you won't have, and we don't have. But he said,

there's only going to be two genders, male and female. And I thought about it, I thought, wow,

there's going to be a lot of transgender people unhappy about that, et cetera. But I thought

actually, probably makes sense. Anyone can do what they want. If you want to change your sex,

that's fine. But if you want to change your sex, that's fine. But if you want to change your sex,

as long as you're of age and you want to do it, that's up to you what you want to do. If you don't

want to be identified as male or female, that's fine. There's no drama. What he was saying is

that we're only going to have male or female, nothing else in between. But there's a big debate

in the UK where there's a Labor government at the moment. There's a big debate there about

this issue and, and, and medications and what doctors are prescribing and

particularly for younger children who might identify

in a way that we wouldn't have seen a generation ago or, or that debate is,

you know, is maturing there as well. We're going through a different phase.

And what do you think about that though? For example, like, you know, schools talking to

kids when they're, you know, young kids in, in early school periods, that it's their choice

as to what they become.

Well, I default back to the position that I took before. And that is about the, firstly, the,

the initiative. And then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then,

and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then,

and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then,

I use that, but it's not just like, that's not just being an, you know, a student.

of child, of, of childhood. I, I, I want to do everything I can to provide an environment

where kids can be brought up in an environment where, frankly, they're not being pressured

one way or the other, that they can be themselves, that they can live a happy and peaceful

existence. And that has come traditionally in my case from the perspective of, you know,

making sure that children aren't subject of, of, you know, violence.

or sexual abuse. But it also extends into curriculum and into the education system. And

I think right with the whole influence of social media now, kids are being forced to grow up much

more quickly than what they otherwise would have. But I'm also a strong believer in the individual,

which is a core part of the liberal belief and the Menzian tradition in our party. And

I don't, as a government, have a role to play in somebody's private life or their sexual life. And

their identity and how they deal with that is an issue for them. Where it causes me concern is if

you've got an activist teacher talking to a year three class or talking to seven or eight year olds

or nine year olds.

Which is at odds with what their parents believe they should be taught. And I think it comes down

to parental decision and parental discussion. And that's as I see it. I just don't, I've never

believed in discrimination against anybody on any basis, as I mentioned earlier. And so I think

there's a lot of personal decision-making based on advice from doctors. But if you've got a teacher

who wants to be an activist, you've got to be an activist. And if you've got a teacher who wants

to be an activist, you've got to be an activist. And if you've got a teacher who wants to be an

activist. And if you've got a teacher who wants to be an activist. And if you've got a teacher who

is pushing a particular line or is trying to arrive at a particular outcome, then I've got a huge

problem with that.

I might just sort of flip it over because I'm going to apologize if I'm getting into the too heavy

stuff. But who do you support in rugby league?

I support the Broncos.

Now, I saw you at the launch of the Dolphins.

Well, yeah, we put, so the Dolphins, my electorate's probably a catchment.

A bit of Redcliffe's in your-

Redcliffe's not in my electorate. It's just outside, but it's within the same council area.

So it's within the Moreton Bay Council. So Luke Howe's been a great champion as the local member

out in Redcliffe for the Dolphins. And I also, I thought it was fantastic to have another team in

the comp. And we supported them with funding when we were in government for their stadium and to try

and put some money into it. And I thought it was fantastic to have another team in the comp.

So I'm incredibly excited about the Dolphins.

How do you feel about the Broncos though?

Well, but to see the trouble is that I can't change teams. And I know some people do, and

you could probably justify it in their minds in that circumstance that you could become

a Dolphins supporter. But I just, I pick and stick and I just, I grew up, well, not grew up

with the Broncos, but-

I, you know, I went to, to a lot of Broncos games in early years and I've been with them through

thick and thin. And so I, I couldn't switch on that basis. And-

Have you spoken to Madgett?

I haven't spoken to him, but I had actually went for a walk with Carl Morris this morning,

the chair of the Broncos. So, and he was telling me how good a job Madgett's doing. So, and he's,

he's a great leader. He'll, I think he'll,

he'll give them a good season this season.

Well, Andrew Webster, we saw you, found out you were coming inside this morning,

the journalist, great journalist, Webby. And Webby said, asked me, asked you the question,

what do you think about PNG coming in the competition?

Well, it's a lot of bucks, $600 million. And I understand that, you know, the,

the prime minister's motivations for it. I think there's a lot of scepticism,

particularly from the Cowboys about what happens if players are based in Cairns or they're flying

in, flying out from North Queensland. And I think particularly

the women's side of things, I think there's a lot of scepticism about what happens if players are

based inside of the, the Cowboys have got a fair following in, in Cairns. So look, if it can work,

it's, it's a good thing for the relationship between the two countries.

As you know, rugby league is religion in, in PNG. And I've, you know, I've had a fair bit to do

with Mel Meninga over the years, a great bloke. And he's done a lot of work up there. And so

there's a huge following, particularly for, you know, Queensland in the, in the state of origin.

And probably traditionally the Broncos for a lot of people out of PNG. So look, I think it's good

if it helps develop a juniors program and it becomes a focal point for good in a society,

which is doing it pretty tough. But it's a lot of money. And the question is, can it hold together?

I mean, there's the talk of tax-free, the tax-free status for the players. There'll be a lot of

players reluctant to take their families into Port Moresby. For sure.

So, you know, there, there are a lot of difficult elements to it. But I think once

Volandi sets his mind to, to it, it's pretty hard to see him deviating from it.

So if you, I did say I was going to park this and I parked it and I'm going to,

I'm going to reverse it out of the parking spot. It means about Peter Dutton, Mr. Potato Head,

can you just explain where do you think that's come from? I mean, I mean, maybe your mates have

caught it because you do have a condition. So let's talk about that.

Well, it's, well, my kids get, you know, a great laugh out of it, but I do say to my

two boys who are 20 and 19, that when I look back at photos, when I was 20 and 19,

I actually had more hair than they do now. So be careful.

Look out.

Exactly. And when I say my, when you, you know, you can give me, you can give me shit about that,

but when you look at me, you're looking, you've got an eye into the future. So just be careful.

And that normally kills the conversation. So, but no, look, I remember giving my uncle heaps of,

crap when, I don't know, maybe I was 15, 16 and he was losing his hair. And as it turns out,

I've now got less hair than him. So he'd say, calm a baby. But, but yeah, so I've got a skin

condition, alopecia, alopecia, which, which is sort of accelerated, if you like, the probably

a natural gene of baldness that I was going to end up with anyway, because, you know, my hair was

starting to sort of thin out in my early twenties. So,

and I took a decision, well, with, with alopecia, it means that once it falls out, it can't grow

back.

Right.

Whereas, you know, if you look at sort of a yeah, yeah type option that you could take.

So is.

Yeah, yeah. Then that, that's probably not something I could have done anyway, but I didn't

know that I could.

I can imagine the shit your mates would give you if you went and did something like that.

Well, it's, one of my mates said to me, you know, a little while ago, he said, mate, you

look so much better on TV, you know, with, with hair. I said, mate, you know, do you,

if I had a choice, do you reckon?

Do you reckon I'd, I'd go for this style? So yeah, look, and that's where, I mean, the

potato head thing was, that's only come about, I think in recent years. And no, I had a great

crop of hair back in the day, but yeah, that's, that's.

And we might put a few of those photos up in the promo, by the way.

You roll with the punches. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly.

Get ready.

Correct.

But, but, but you said you roll with the punches. Sometimes it does look like people having

to dig it, particularly in terms of your, your opposition. People take political, political

fun out, put political fun out of it. And, or sometimes it might even go a little bit

further than that. You never know their intentions, but it can feel that way. How do you deal

with that sort of stuff? What do you do about it? I mean, what does Peter Dutton go? Or

does he just say, just chill, dude, that's okay. This is the game.

Mate, look, people, people deal with, with it in a different, in different ways. And

you know, if you're in the public eye, then you've got to expect it. I use it as fuel

in the tank.

What they don't realize is that it just makes me more determined to succeed. And I don't

say that lightly because you've got to listen to criticism, but where it's personal criticism

about your physical appearance and the rest of it, it's sort of, it's water off a duck's

back in a sense, because I think, well, mate, you know, have you got the perfect nose or,

you know, is your hair parted the right way or, you know, you're going, you're thinning

out on top or you're carrying a bit of a gut, but, you know, say what?

And I just think people expect a more mature debate than that. I think part of the reason

that the personal attacks come from Labor is because, you know, I think they've had

a pretty shabby two and a half years. There's not many achievements of the Albanese government

that they could point to. I mean, for the last few months, so that really means say

the last six months of the Albanese government, all I've talked about is what they'll do in

the next term when nobody can tell you what they've done this term. And so if you concentrate

in a two horse race on trying to pull the other off, then you're going to have a pretty

back then maybe it's, you know, look over here, but not at our failings then Labor think

they can get away with it. But for me, I think you develop a thick skin.

I'm guided by what I know is right according to my values. You don't always get it right.

You accept the criticism when you get it wrong and you correct the record. But there are

different things that I've said over the years where I said, look, if what I've said is factually

incorrect, I'll correct the record in a heartbeat.

Yep.

if what I've said is just offensive to you because you've got a different perspective

than mine, I'm not apologising for that. And I'm not going to shout you down when you express your

view that's contrary to mine. We live in the greatest democracy in the world and should

encourage free speech and try and do away with the personal attacks. I mean, when I describe

Anthony Albanese as weak, it's not saying that he's weak because of his height or because of

his skin colour or any nonsense like that. I call him weak because I don't think he has the ability

to make the tough decisions and to call out the wrong that's in our society. And so for me,

that's the motivation. I don't say it from sticks and stones sort of perspective. It's not a name

calling thing that I engage in. And look, I think most people...

People are smarter than that and they see through the memes and the name calling. And

that's just, you know, I think that's part of life.

Peter Dutton's in his early 50s.

Yeah. I feel much older, mate.

Well, you're going to be a lot worse once you become promised. But what do you do for yourself

in terms of just physical health? And like, do you have a regime like food, sleep? Sleep's probably

a difficult one. But...

Exercise. I mean, what's the deal with you?

It kills me if I can't get to the gym or go for a walk in the morning. And I just find it such a

better start to the day.

Is that an early start then?

Yeah. So I start reading the papers at about 4.30. I'll go for a walk at 5.00. I'll go to the gym

and generally that's sort of over by about 6.37. I meditate, which I believe strongly in and not

for everybody. But for me, it allows...

It allows you to clear the mind either before you go to sleep or at the start of the day or during

the day. I think it helps you deal with whatever load you've got.

And what type of meditation are we talking about, Peter? Is it like box breathing or are you

talking about...

I've just got a mantra. So Luke Darcy, I've got a mutual mate and Darcy's big into meditation. And

for me, when I look at somebody like Luke Darcy, he's got great balance in his home life. He's a

great dad and husband.

He has got obviously incredible success that he's enjoyed in AFL, but he's also had a successful

business career and post career. And I think part of that is through his meditation. And as I say,

for some people, it's religion. For some people, it's sport or it's whatever. And so each to their

own. I don't... I'm not preaching or telling people what they should do. But for me, it's

for me, that has been important. I'd love to be better at food and more disciplined at diet. And

I try and cut back and particularly nighttime portion sizes because you're out at lunch and

dinner every day. And I try if I can to either skip breakfast. But sometimes if I've got a really

full day, I think the energy of breakfast in the morning is an important meal. So

just depends on what's on in the diary. I'd love to say that I don't have a sweet tooth and that I

don't enjoy a steak and a glass of red or two and a few beers with mates. But for me, it's sort of

balance. And it's trying to get that balance right in a busy lifestyle and also get that family

piece right. Like the worst thing in my mind would be going home to an empty house.

After having been six different hotel rooms during the week. So the kids are sacrosanct and

watching. I've always made a habit, even as defense minister or home affairs, whatever,

health minister or assistant treasurer, I've always made the point of being there probably

nine out of 10 of their rugby games or swimming for Rebecca on a Friday night or

a cricket or whatever, because that's important to them.

But it's also, for me, a switch off from work. And I've always gained enjoyment from watching

them season to season grow and develop and turn into young adults. So yeah, everyone finds their

own formula, but that's in part mine. And your wife, do you have like a, I mean,

not a date night, but a night you allocate to say, look, let's go down to the pub,

go down and sell a local pub and have a beer.

Or have a meal. I mean, because I'd imagine it's pretty tough,

especially when you're away a whole lot of the time. But what's the process of something like that?

Definitely. I mean, you've got to prioritize. And John Howard, I think, gave a couple of points

on this, a couple of pieces of advice early on. It was always, never run late for a plane because of

the stress and grief that it causes you, particularly if you're flying daily,

which I don't always hear.

But it's good advice. And secondly, speak to your wife at least a couple of times a day.

And so particularly with FaceTime or whatever and the kids, you can

do that more easily than when I first went into parliament. So I do that morning and night or

twice a day. I try not to do it more than that, or particularly when the kids were young during

the course of when they're getting ready for meals or whatever, because

I think that would be unhappy times in the relationship and it caused grief. But

no, but I think maintaining those lines of communication, sharing your days, but also

when you get home, leaving it at the front door as well. And so, yes, I mean, date nights and going

out for a meal or just having takeaway on the couch, watching footy on a Friday night or just

normal sort of stuff. Yeah, absolutely.

How good.

Absolutely.

It's the best.

Correct, correct.

You said right at the very beginning, Peter Dutton was happy to, when he was a young kid,

in order to deal with his shyness, to get on the front counter at the butcher shop and deal with

whoever it was, Peter Dutton's vying for the position of prime minister, dealing with everyone

in Australia. Is that a way of dealing with, because my sense is you're still a pretty shy

bloke.

Yes.

You're still shy.

Yeah.

I am actually. I don't seek the public light at all.

But you are going for prime minister.

Post-politics, you'll never hear from me again. I'll be happy to be right.

Don't worry. If you get in, you'll be in for a while. So do you ever think about that? This is

just the same kid when he was eight, nine, 10, 11, being pushed into the front of the counter to deal

with all the people. And now you're Peter Dutton dealing, who is still a shy. My gut feeling is

you're still a shy dude.

And Peter Dutton is now going to push himself into the biggest counter in the country.

Yes. And I think over the last couple of years as leader, that's been necessary. And if you

look at whether the prime minister and I sort of locked in, I think the polling yesterday,

43 apiece on preferred prime minister, my net favorabilities are much higher than the

prime minister. So that's been sort of a 20 point turnaround. Good for me, bad for him

over the course of the last couple of years. And I think that in part has been because people have

seen a different side or they've thought, well, hang on, I've heard all this stuff and how bad

he was over these years, but I've heard him speak or heard him interviewed somewhere. And actually

a lot of what he said, I agree with, or I think it's unfair that they characterize him that way

or whatever. And so I think that happens naturally anyway. I like to think that I've kept my feet on

the ground.

Pretty much. I've still got the same group of mates from school and still they're as loyal to

me as I am to them. And again, sort of the pick and stick thing. And so loyalty has always been

a really important commodity for me in relationships and in what I do. And so, yeah, I think therefore

naturally some of those same attributes from the shy kid on the counter probably still carry

through.

And I always feel for somebody like Steve Smith, for example, or you could rattle off other codes

and sports and whatever, but they're talented and their talent is to play their sport for their

country. And that's the pinnacle of their success that they've dreamt about as a young kid. But they

don't crave the limelight, but it comes with it. And there's no separating the two. And I think

when you accept that, you know, there's no separating the two. And I think when you accept that,

that's just the reality. You live your life that way. But, you know, like you sometimes going out

to a restaurant, you're better off just to stay at home and have a quiet night because it's great to

meet people and the rest of it, but it just, you can't get that privacy. And it's sometimes it's,

it just becomes a bit much.

Peter Dunn, I want to thank you for your openness today. And we want to wish you the very best of

luck.

And the upcoming election, which by the way, hasn't been announced, but no doubt it's happening

because it's coming.

It's coming.

Peter Dunn.

Hey Mark, thanks very much, mate.

You're most welcome.

I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Thank you.

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