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Hi, I'm Mike Boris and this is Straight Talk.
Hey, how you doing?
Welcome to Straight Talk, mate.
Leave a war-torn Sudan, you go to live in Egypt, you end up in Toowoomba, then you go to Perth,
and you know, you're representing your country, nominated to be Australian of the Year,
and then you just get whack.
How do you pick yourself up?
It's such a tradition, you know, it's just not you on your own now. It's like,
if you're not on the right mindset, it could destroy you.
I had no English at all.
Moving to Australia. You find out pretty quickly that you're the odd one out. And now you're in
this race to kind of adapt. And everyone was shocked, like, whoa, like, you really have a
talent for this. And I think you should do it outside of school. And I just said, I don't
really want to run. It's not, it's not my passion.
Yeah, it was just not my thing. It wasn't until, again, I kept losing and coming second.
I was pretty competitive. I want to win.
It sounds like you're good at every bloody thing, but don't tell me you're a great swimmer too.
Hey, how you doing?
Welcome to Straight Talk, mate.
No, thank you for having me. I've been wanting to come here for a while.
That's pretty cool.
It's good to be here.
First of all, tell me what your actual first name is.
Like, it's not Peter.
Yeah, I think that's a great start. My first name is Nejma Din.
Does it mean something?
Yeah, so Nejma in Arabic, Arabic is my first language. Nejma is a star.
And then Din is religious.
It's a religion, actually, interestingly, yeah.
Okay, and your religion, you're Muslim?
Muslim, that's right.
Islamic religion, yeah?
And because what I got confused about is how you got Peter in there, because Peter's a Christian name.
And did your parents name you Peter, or did they call you something completely different?
No, they actually called me something completely different.
My parents actually never called me Peter or Nejma Din.
They called me Tia, which is a nickname they gave me when I was a little baby back home, and they kept that forever.
Does it mean something?
It's one of my relatives' name, so they just named me after them.
Okay, so how did you get Peter?
When I moved here, we kind of just selected a different name.
Yeah, my man was like that when he came to Australia.
Because no one could really pronounce your name.
Yeah, and that's a bit of a thing.
I mean, people who migrate this country from a different language or a different culture and language,
the first thing you want to do is try and fit in.
And you would have been, how old were you when you came here?
I was 10 years old when I first touched down in Australia.
So were you like cognizant of the fact that your name was not, when you went to school,
were you cognizant of the fact that your name was not like everyone else in the class's name?
And was it you who said, I might call myself Peter?
Yeah, yeah, it was, I think, I don't even remember, it was such a long time ago.
But yeah, I think it was me.
It was pretty hard.
And interestingly, all my brother's names are kind of similar.
So I've got four brothers and one is Shamsuddin, one is Maheddin, and one is Bedruddin, and one is Izzuddin.
So we all have the din in it and super Arabic names.
And when you come here, you realize like everyone's names are kind of different.
And no one can pronounce your name.
It's like a struggle.
So actually, in reflection, I wish I kind of just went with my last name, just Bol,
which is a lot easier to say and pronounce.
And make that your first name.
Yeah, yeah, cool.
Yeah, that is cool.
But Peter sort of makes sense.
I mean, like, I don't know why you chose Peter, but maybe it was someone that you met that called you.
Because I remember my father told me a story that when his youngest brother came to Australia,
his name was Athanasos.
But the guy at the, what do you call it, the immigration, couldn't pronounce it because
it was obviously written in Greek.
And he said, we'll call you Athanasos.
And now he's Arthur.
And now he's Arthur.
And now he's Arthur.
Because it sounds the same, you know, like, and my family just stuck with it.
And now he's Uncle Arthur or Artie, which is like very Aussie, very, very Aussie.
And similar to you, like, he came here about, he would have been about 10 when he came to Australia.
And like, so Australianized is ridiculous.
So I'm going to ask you about that.
So how much of growing up pre-coming to Australia do you think,
I think, form part of who Peter Boll is today, pre-Australia?
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And it's really hard to break up because we've kind of shifted from different places and different cultures.
I was born in Sudan in Khartoum and that's the Sudanese and South Sudanese culture.
My dad's South Sudanese.
And tell me about that.
Most audiences wouldn't know much about that culture.
Yeah, so my dad's South Sudanese.
So that's where the Boll comes from.
My mom is from a Nuba tribe in the North Sudan and that's where the Arabic part comes from, Najm-ud-Din.
Is there much difference between them?
Yeah, heaps of difference.
South Sudan, different religion, different languages.
So my mom and dad actually speak two different languages.
My dad speaks a tribal language called Denka and my mom speaks her tribal language called Nuba.
And growing up, we actually spoke Nuba with my mom because we grew up with my mom's side of the family.
Never actually spoke my dad's language because he was kind of that odd one out.
And growing up with all, my mom has so many siblings and brothers and family and that's who we're around.
And then the national language in Sudan is Arabic.
So I think we just stuck to that because it was just a lot easier.
Did your dad speak Arabic?
Yeah, my dad speaks Arabic.
So that was a common language in the family.
That's the common language, yeah.
But if you want to have a crack at dad, you spoke your mom's village language.
But I've actually completely forgot my mom's village language.
Because we're so little.
Like, I mean, I left Sudan when I was six years old.
And when we met to Egypt, Arabic is the primary language in Egypt.
And you just stuck to that and that's all you spoke.
And you spoke at home.
So that became the primary language as well.
You still speak Arabic?
I still speak Arabic, yeah.
Like fluent, read, write?
I can only read now.
I've kind of lost the reading and writing.
So I can only speak it fluently.
But do you speak it still at home with your mom and your dad?
And your brothers?
Yeah, I speak it.
No, I don't actually speak to my brothers.
I only speak it to my parents.
Yeah, and friends.
It's funny, you know, like when you're – I mean, I'm a first generation,
so I don't know other than what my dad said and what I experienced watching my dad.
But it'll be interesting to hear from someone who actually is an immigrant
and came here, you know, before they become a teenager.
What is the – how do you feel when you arrive in a country like Australia?
Do you remember when you went first – maybe the first time at school,
everyone's speaking a different language.
Did you have English?
Any English at that stage?
No, I had no English.
I didn't have English at all moving to Australia.
But interestingly, every time I reflect on it, I think it was a lot easier because as a 10-year-old,
you tend to pick up things pretty quickly.
And you go to school and I think what I had – the advantage I had on my side is that I had four brothers
and we all end up similar in the same school.
So you have something familiar there.
You can go catch up with your brothers during recess and lunch and whatnot.
But you find out pretty quickly that you're the odd one out.
And if you can't understand a language,
your class becomes really difficult to go to and you just get nervous going to every single class.
The only class that kind of made sense was sports.
Because like you pick it up really quickly and it's universal.
But on top of – and then you find out on top of the language,
the culture is completely different too.
We had a completely different culture back home and now you're in this race to kind of adapt.
And while you're in this race to adapt, you're also in the race to learn the language.
And then the conflicting part I think was that the people that you looked up,
which is I think the head of the house, which is your parents,
they don't get to experience that.
So they remain their culture the whole way because they come here pretty old,
don't go to school and don't have many Australian friends
and they stay around the community.
So you go to school and you try and adapt to everything
and then you come back home, back to your own culture
and then you have this conflicting side because you're going to school like most of the day.
You're spending time and then over the years you start picking up Australian culture
and you're going back home and it's like, well,
where does our culture kind of fit in the middle?
And that's kind of I think was really challenging finding that
rather than everything else, finding the language
and getting to know people and all that and making friends,
I think was trying to find out where you fit in in a different culture
and how much do you try to adapt to a new culture
while maintaining your own sense of purpose and who you are.
When you first came, where did you guys sort of settle down?
Toowoomba in Queensland.
Toowoomba, yeah, in Queensland.
I mean, talk about like.
I mean, especially like 15 years ago, like more, 20 years ago now.
Toowoomba is like fairly Aussie.
Like why Toowoomba?
Like we never ask questions because we didn't know much of Australia.
But someone sent you there?
No, my dad actually had family in Toowoomba.
And I think what happened around that time,
there was a lot of migration through Toowoomba
and there was heaps of work to be done.
I think there was a lot of field work and heaps of Sudanese
to move there in Toowoomba back then.
So there was actually a big Sudanese community back in Toowoomba
around that time from 2000, 2004.
Yeah, we actually grew up with heaps of South Sudanese kids around.
There was like a community sort of thing.
So what did you guys leave behind in Sudan and not so much in Egypt,
but what did you leave behind in Sudan in order before you went to Egypt?
Like, was it like a civil war?
What was going on?
Yeah, it was, I mean, Sudan as we speak right now,
it's still going through tension and civil war.
my grandma's still there and, um,
I think it's pretty hard for my mom at the moment
because she wants to see her every time,
but it's, she can't go there.
It's not safe to go there and she's getting pretty old.
I think the story never really changed between that conflicts,
civil wars and stuff like that, that you have back there.
that's kind of why we left and my dad just relocated us all to Egypt.
But, but, I mean, I, pardon my ignorance,
but is it a religious war?
What, what's going on?
What's the war about?
No, Sudan's probably actually, um,
a Muslim country, uh, in the north anyway.
So, uh, in 2011, they got the independence from,
from South Sudan, obviously.
And, uh, so it wasn't really about religion.
It's all about power between, between, um,
I guess the leaders and the people.
That's, it's been the same story for years.
And is it full on?
Like, as in like, you know, people getting killed?
Yeah, it's full on.
It's probably not televised as much, but it's pretty full on.
It's been going for years.
Yeah, I, and I guess it's, and I don't know very much about Sudan,
but I guess it's, and I don't know very much about Sudan, but I guess it's, and I don't know very much about Sudan,
but I guess it's, and I don't know very much about Sudan, but I guess it's,
it's not as, um, publicly talked about because there's no oil there or something like that.
It's just, there's probably no, nothing rich there.
Like, even if, if it was Middle East or something like that, because of the oil, et cetera.
It'd be talked about.
Everyone's talking about it.
And everyone would be butting in and sort of putting their two balls worth in.
But is there much going on in Sudan, I mean, prior to this war?
Did you ever see it peaceful?
No, actually, sadly, no.
But I, when I was at school, um, I think that was probably the most peaceful part of it.
And you could go back to Sudan somewhere.
My family actually went back to Sudan a few times while we were at school.
But ever since it's kind of been on and off, on and off.
And, and I think peaceful, it really depends.
Um, like it's, it's been kind of corrupt for a while, but is, was it safe enough to go there?
Yes, it was safe, but still wasn't at the standard that you'd probably consider it safe enough.
But if, if you were Sudanese and you, you knew people, you could go there and get away.
But now it's completely, um, unsafe to go.
Um, is Peter Boal, does he feel like he's more Sudanese or more Australian today?
Uh, I mean, obviously a combination of both.
Yeah, obviously a combination of both.
And interestingly enough, I spent more, more of my life in Australia than I, than I did back home.
But, but what made me is, is, is the culture and the personality that I got, I got back from home.
So, um, almost like bang on in the middle, like my, my heritage and my identity comes from being, having South Sudanese.
And then obviously, also is my mother as akeltong and, and my father is, is a Sudanese father and a Sudanese mother.
And, and that's, and that's, that's, who Peter Boal is.
And then obviously coming, adopting to a new country and, and finding sport, finding the love for a new country.
That's who I am now.
So it's definitely both of them.
And from Toowoomba, where'd you end up?
Uh, from Toowoomba, I think.
We were four years there and then we moved to Perth.
So all the way to the other side.
Like, I mean, it's actually beautiful in Perth, but like, was it chasing work for your dad or?
didn't didn't have education and there wasn't much work in Toowoomba so he kind of relocated
us all to Perth and is your dad and or mum sports sports people no they're not actually but my dad
my dad you can tell if he ever had the opportunity he'd get pretty far I think it's it's always about
opportunity and if he could have done it I don't think he ever had that opportunity to do any sport
but I remember as a kid we used to race and he'd beat all of us like he's he's strong um
South Sudanese are uh really strong powerful and he described it because I don't know so
describe South Sudanese you know what they're doing yeah yeah so they actually don't look
the way I look because they're a lot taller I'm considered pretty short for South Sudanese um
average height is probably 6'1 now 6'2 so they're pretty tall my dad's pretty tall um
really strong really powerful yeah you mean in terms of physique physique yeah really really
strong um so growing up I used to look up to him a lot he was just it's just this big guy and
and athletics so it was it was cool to see that and then and then my brothers and the
North Sudanese my mum's side the Nuba tribe they're short they're like really short so it's
completely different genetics right and it was always like um whose genetics are you gonna get
and I think my brother's actually all got my dad's genetics and I got I think my mum's height
which is kind of crazy because I actually consider myself the least athletic in the family
you mean in terms of looking at in in terms of physicality physicality and also in terms of in
um I remember a few stories my little brother who uh was went to the same school as I did back
in in Perth and obviously I came to school broke all the records and he'd just break them after me
and he didn't really train and do anything so he was just naturally naturally more gifted than I
was and he barely trained a different physique yeah he's a he's taller and a bit stronger yeah
you know we're talking we're talking about just when you say we're talking about running or you
no no he broke my high jump record long jump record long jump record long jump record long jump
um and and running so you were doing a lot so when you were at school yeah you weren't just an
800 meter runner or a middle distance runner you're more uh everything yeah yeah because
again like coming coming from where we came from there wasn't there wasn't much outside of football
we played soccer and that's purely what we played and and you go to school here there's there's all
these sports that I chucked at you and you're like man I'd love to give it a go so when it
was only purely just through athletics carnivals and whatnot and it's like yeah I want to give
a high jump a go like I think I jumped at school I jumped 180 um and I couldn't frosby flop so it
was scissor kick yeah that's the old scissors this is as opposed to the western roll whatever
they call it yeah yeah as opposed to yeah so I could jump pretty high what did you say one one
180 that's not bad because like when you consider the records like 210 or 220 yeah yeah so it's it's
not that far off and then my brother broke it and jumped like 185 and he could scissor kick that
for those who don't know this is kit means you don't uh
turn on your side you actually run and jump up yeah and one leg goes over the other leg follows
yeah like a scissor like a scissor yeah yeah that's mad like that's so old school
people probably stopped scissor kicking 20 years ago yeah and at the high levels it'll say olympic
levels etc but like I mean at every level I think yeah because you get much mechanically you can
jump much higher if you do the other style but when I was at school they call the western roll but
as opposed yeah so but I don't know what you're talking about I don't know what you're talking about
you call it now you just mentioned another name I don't know what it is but um but yeah that there's
just biomechanically a much more efficient way of jumping over the high jump so but 185 that's
pretty high that's pretty high but if if you've never done long jump before and someone tells you
to get off the bar I think the easiest way is probably trying to do scissor kick wow you don't
have you don't have that training so you just try to get over instead of frosby so when you went to
school when you first turned up perth how old were you um so how old was I I was probably just out
15 so they so you're a local school in perth which part where we're talking about uh I was
on the south side so we grew up grew up in thornley the whole time I was in perth okay so there's this
kid at the local school and uh the first athletic carnival comes up at this stage you speak in
english probably perfectly yeah fluent yeah and uh and they say the athletic carnival's coming up
and there wouldn't be many kids from um sedan in uh your school in perth in perth no doubt for sure
for sure uh and uh because I lived over there for a while it was a pretty unusual sort of well I love
perth it's a pretty unusual sort of place relative to the rest of Australia it's not as multicultural
as the rest of Australia a lot of asian people now but not very multicultural generally speaking
because asia is very close to perth or singapore is very close to perth and it's quite a short
commute indonesia is quite close to and um they see this kid and they go on the athletic carnival
and uh did everyone say what the fuck like who's this guy yeah yeah when um when we
went to perth it was actually like I can't I didn't like it because we spent just four years
trying to adapt and make friends and and now you gotta move to a different different state
and then you find out like it's across the country so um it's a little bit tough but
I wasn't really interested in athletics either I wasn't doing athletics I wasn't interested
no no no like and I think that's purely because I thought about it a lot and I think purely
because athletics is an individual sport I never grew up individually I grew up with
with a team of brothers and and family we've moved everywhere together we've played and
shared everything and athletics was just individuals just made no sense made no sense
and and on top of that like running is just just doing laps is boring hey totally boring
I did not want anything to do with that but I was I was good at it and and I went to school where
it was compulsory like cross country was compulsory you had to run um swimming carnivals
was kind of compulsory everything so I'd rock up and and I would win cross country and and
on be like impressed it's like man this is this is just what we did like it's not it's not a big deal
um we just we just ran around so many times um so I think it impressed everyone but I was I was so
passionate about basketball and I actually went to that school on a basketball scholarship so I
just wanted to stay to stay playing basketball and we obviously I mean it sounds like you're
good at every bloody thing but you know okay tell me don't tell me you're a great swimmer too
what was that don't tell me you're a great swimmer too no no no no
I'm talking about basketball athletics
every swimming carnival I was kind of sick I never actually rocked up to the pool
yeah well I actually made me feel a bit better now because I was starting to get a bit
sort of annoyed with myself when I'm annoyed with my own genetics but so but you you love
you is that you still your first love basketball yeah I would say so as a sport to watch too
as a sport to watch yeah definitely yeah and in but if I go back to the running
like you they put you in a cross country and you're going to just you're going to blitz them
in the cross country if you you know a lot about biomechanics now obviously you know a lot about
biomechanics and I want to go back to if you attended AIS or the equivalent of the West
Australian Institute of Sport if I assume there is one or did you go to any of the Institute of
Sports I want to come back to that in a second but in terms of biomechanics what do you think it is
that especially when you're a say 15 year old and I don't know if you're the same size of 15 as you
are whether you're an early mature and in terms of your general stature um what do you think it is
that makes a good runner for safer distance let's call it 800 middle distance and Beyond
yeah I mean it's it's definitely I think the advantage we have where I'm naturally pretty
light and and quick on my feet so you've got to have that power you're gonna have that endurance
which which I was winning cross country at school without any trainings I've had that natural
endurance uh and then you just had to buy mechanically you have to get stronger
and have that power so and naturally as you grow you get stronger and and bigger so like my times
are just improving as I continue to grow so there's the strength component which you have to
have there's um the physique that you kind of have we naturally have that physique as being south
sudanese we're tall I'm quite skinny but powerful yeah so it makes it makes for a great runner because
you got your late up and I I know she when I've watched you when you've competed and you've got
long legs very long legs yeah long legs yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
relative to your torso, so to speak, as opposed to, say,
someone like me, I've got a long torso and a short leg,
And then the power comes from the back of your body,
like your glutes or your posterior chain.
Yeah, glutes and core.
We've got strong core.
So would you say that that's just natural?
Was your dad saying to you every morning, listen,
do sit-ups or something?
No, my dad, interestingly, my dad has never told me
to go to training in my life, and neither has my mum.
But I always thought it was natural, but then you think about it,
like where we came from, we didn't have much,
but we kind of had each other.
And every single chance we get, we were training,
but it wasn't structured.
We were always out there playing football, running around.
That's all we did.
So you build strength, right?
You're wrestling with your brothers.
You're doing this.
And I remember growing up, we used to do boxing with each other.
So you think it's natural,
You were just training, but you just didn't really think about it.
And at what stage did someone say to you,
okay, Peter, like we've been watching you in school sports
and various carnivals, et cetera.
We want you to join an athletic club.
When, I think it was when I was year 10, when I was year 10,
and you have obviously the school's cross country, which I won,
and then you had the inter-school cross country,
which gets a little bit more serious.
Now you're competing against every single school,
and you have kids that are specializing in athletics,
and I came second, and everyone was shocked.
I was like, whoa, you really have a talent for this,
and I think you should do it outside of school.
And I kind of just declined in a nice way,
and I just said, I don't really want to run.
It's not my passion.
Yeah, it was just not my thing.
So I think it wasn't until year 12, again,
I kept losing and coming second, and I was pretty competitive.
Growing up with brothers, you're super competitive.
I was like, why am I always coming second?
Like, I want to win, and I took the offer in year 11,
and I started training outside of school.
Was it somebody who sort of like picked you out as great potential,
like some individual?
Yeah, my teacher actually.
My teacher picked me, and she had a conversation with me,
like I think for two years in a row,
trying to convince me to do this outside of school.
She was persistent.
She was very persistent, yeah.
Why do you think that is the case?
Why do you think someone like that becomes persistent?
Why do you think that in,
in our lives, we come across somebody who maybe doesn't give up on us,
but won't give up on us, and of course, we don't see it as a kid.
Why do you think someone chose you to be someone who they wouldn't give up on
and keep encouraging them to do something?
I think it comes from within and also comes from their story
because as I got to know myself,
as my teacher outside of school and she got her father involved,
which he mentored me, she used to be a great summa,
and her dad never gave up on her, and he saw great potential in her.
But she also, I think, saw great potential in me as a person
and someone that she wanted to help.
And she would ask me every single year, and I'd say no,
but then she realized maybe, maybe it's not because he's not passionate.
Maybe he doesn't know where to go.
And she got her dad involved, said, you know,
in athletics clubs and all this stuff.
And, and as soon as doors, doors opened, and all I had to do was rock up, I said, yes.
And I think once she figured that out, she's like, maybe, maybe it's not about passion.
Maybe it's not about laziness and, and all these things people kind of say,
you've got so much talent, but you don't want to apply yourself.
Maybe it's more about opportunity for other people.
Because there's a lot of, of books written about,
there's a very famous one called Outliers written by a guy called Malcolm Gladwell.
And he's talking about intellectual outliers, but sort of like just talent outliers,
generally speaking, the same would apply.
I mean, they believe in that, but their, their skills are understated.
On many occasions, a lot of the outliers never actually achieve anything.
It, it's only rare that you get an outlier, you know, someone like Oppenheimer,
et cetera, who wants to pursue, with their outlier talent, they want to pursue something
very important and end up, you know, in his case, he did something fairly important,
fairly, very important relative to the rest of the world.
why i i often wonder why someone like you who is an outlier doesn't necessarily want to do it not
lazy just not can't see the point in it but why why am i doing that um i often wonder what what
it is the thing it is that actually makes them change their mind on a particular time say stuff
it yeah i'm gonna do this i'm gonna have a crack at this i'm gonna pursue my talent yeah not pursue
a career not pursue an outcome but i'm gonna pursue my talent what do you think it was that
got you to make the call because she was consistent she kept asking but what was it that
clicked in your mind that said you know peter come on let's give this a crack not too long ago
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extra charge open phone no missed calls no missed customers i actually think is um the way you see
the world and a different perspective you get to see the world for me personally was that um i had
i saw the world in in different scales obviously in such a small scale and then when you get to
athletics you get to see see so much of the world and um i was pretty talented pretty early so like
as soon as i committed to running that first year i was like i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm
gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this
i was like i was like in sydney so i was like wow like you get to travel for free like that's pretty
cool right are you with this with the athletic squad you came over yeah when i came over like
i'm because i came to toowoomba and perth and that was it i never saw any the rest of australia
i was like oh man sport can be your passport so you get to see the world in a in a different sense
and then and then you're seeing like and then on top of that you're seeing like um you're learning
about different athletes and what they're doing how they apply themselves and and then that drive
and then the second is i think my drive is like i want to be the best and and i will not stop until
i get there i was second i want to be first and then i get first and then you find out like oh
you're just first at the school like there's there's like people in queensland there's people
in new south wales and there's a title to be won and then it's like the fastest australian junior
and it's like well i want to get there and then once you set yourself that goal you kind of try
anything to get there and you just you just want to get to that top because i often think about
is it people say i'm competitive and therefore i want to win or is it is it something sort of
greater than that is it like i want to travel australia and if this is a way i can like i know
a lot of boxers do this um you know they're only way out and rugby league players a lot of times
my only way out of the shit life that i might be presented with and i'm not saying your life
was a shit life but the excitement life the excitement of life that you may not be getting
presented with living at home with your family the things that look exciting especially when
especially to a young person um the only way i'm going to get to taste that stuff is to compete and
win um because a lot of people say i'm competitive and therefore i want to win yeah but i see lots
of other reasons why people even a young as a young person we can recognize that i'm not going
to get to do what everyone else is doing unless i i take this risk and try harder yeah and train
harder and a lot of times that's our greatest sportsman in this country
very rarely have come from the really expensive schools where families are really wealthy yeah
um particularly if i look at the boxing boxing grades etc our football grades
i don't know a lot about athletics but our athletic grades but swimming grades as well
swimming is slightly different because uh your parents have to have money to be able to
put you through the program but nonetheless um it's about improving your life how much of this
you know like i'm seeing myself on the improvement curve i've come from a
from sudan i went out of there i got out of there that was a lot of drama they haven't in egypt and
that was pretty good but better better than sudan but not as good as where we went to the moment to
twomba twomba was pretty good now i'm in perth perth's pretty good but main there's a lot more
good stuff out there yeah i want to keep pushing on the improvement curve how much that is about
is pit a bowl i actually think it's about 80 yeah because i'm i always struggled with you know when
you're doing something for so long you and you get to meet people that are that do it out of
pure passion i always
i was always kind of jealous of that i've seen people that are so passionate about
about athletics about running and i wasn't really a student of running i didn't even know who i was
running up against in my first olympic games so i was just i was just there because i wanted to be
in that improvement improvement curve i wanted to represent now like you see like um i became
australian citizen in 2000 2006 um around september i was like man like i became australian citizen
now like i'm running for the country i'm now representing so many people and then and then
i get behind you like australia gets behind you and and then you see the whole the migrants get
behind you not even just the south sudanese they kind of just get behind you and now like you stand
for something for these people and it's like that that's like 80 and you still have to enjoy and i
still do enjoy it i don't hate it but there's no way i'm as passionate as anyone else um around
there because i could tell you now like i barely watch i don't watch much athletics um the first
olympics i didn't know who i was running against it wasn't until i was in the first olympics i was
like two years ago that i started looking at my opponents because and mainly because someone told
me that's how you improve you gotta you gotta study your opponents you gotta be student of the
sport you gotta know splits you gotta know time and that's when i started looking into it i've
been to three olympics and um after my events i've barely gone to any athletics to watch i've
definitely gone to basketball every time i had a chance to go watch that because that's your love
yeah that's your passion that's your passion and that's what you love yeah it doesn't but
it doesn't mean you don't apply the same amount of effort to the thing your job your job is
the 800 by the way do you do it do any other events apart from the 800 have you done it
not in the olympics i'm talking about outside olympics was there another
event that was your favorite um no it's just kind of 800 it was why that because that's a
tough run by the way but uh 800 why why that is it because that you felt felt that's what you're
best at yeah i just felt i was too lazy to do the training for for anything longer i thought
i'd be honestly i think um probably naturally better and maybe a more 1500 a little bit longer
because i came from winning cross country pretty easily naturally but i just didn't want to do that
training and and running circles so what's the difference between 800 training and 1500 training
it's more kilometers so you just gotta get more on your legs you just gotta get more on your legs
and i wasn't interested in doing that um i was more interested in just staying explosive
powerful because i was still playing basketball on the side i wanted to keep playing basketball
um if if you're running 15 and longer you're running like 80ks or more a week oh really yeah
i didn't want to i wasn't interested in running anything more than 40 50ks a week that's a lot
too but that's that's a lot but for a runner is not that much for a distance runner yeah yeah
yeah that's that's interesting and can i ask you like i know you're a muslim by faith and i you
still live a faithful life yeah today we try my best yeah you do yeah well i guess that i mean
we gotta try our best and then which basically means we're not perfect at it but we're we have
the um structure to try to live it that way how much of the muslim religion dictates or determines
that we must take advantage of what god has given us in terms of talent in other words
and i don't know a lot about the muslim religion but and therefore i'm asking you
is it considered disrespectful to god
not to take advantage of the skill you got i don't i don't know if it's if it's so much
disrespectful i think you're uh you're on this earth on a learning curve right you you make
mistakes and and you just kind of learn from them but um but if you have a gift it's considered you
use it um and you don't just use it for yourself you use it to better your life and better the
people around you right um you got to give you got to forgive and and all that stuff so i think
it's it's in your duty to use your gift yeah that's a good way to put it it's a duty yeah to
use your gifts and talents yeah so so does that drive you or did that drive you during that period
it it definitely it definitely drove me a lot because i had this talent that I knew I could
not just change my life but change everyone around me so uh i think that definitely made
me wanted to do it a little bit more uh and it made it a little bit different too having having
faith on your side and having family and having like strong values um
actually made the sport more enjoyable because how how so because because it like you had less
pressure you're like this is a gift and I'm going to do the best I can but the most important thing
is is your faith in your family and and your values outside of that so you had a fallback
position you always had a fallback position right so like those are the strong those what you need
to strengthen and the sport will strengthen itself but you got to keep doing the training right
um but you can't you almost can't do sports without
anything that is especially especially if you're tired in the middle you've got to like be a non-believer
and to try to strengthen that but if you're a believer you're always kind of conflicted in
the middle so you've got to you've got to work on them both so because you know I see um some young
muslim so much not so much young anymore but some like Sonny Bill Williams um who is quite
open about his faith and also a lot of the uh Islander boys
who are quite open about their Christian faith yeah um in terms of where it fits into in terms
of rugby league because that's more the area I'm interested in in my own personal life um but the
the way they openly display it and they openly lean into it in order to help them do what do what
they're about to do and then and in fact actually to some extent and I saw it during the the um
Paralympics which obviously just finished but
uh especially on the athletic field I saw a few people sort of um look up to Allah and uh to the
sign that they do prior to their event um like I don't know how strictly religious you are but
what is it that people are asking for when they do that or what are they giving when they look
up and or and or think before a race in relation in relation to sort of the Islamic faith like you
know the Muslim faith
what is it they're saying or thinking about yeah are they offering it to to God yeah I think
different different people have obviously different but but for me personally um uh I I do
pray and I just pray to be able to do the best I've prepared for so um and someone said do you do
you pray that you you do better than your opponents I said I said no like you you just pray for for a
safe journey and you pray
that you can do the best the best that you're prepared for and that's and that's it and you and
you leave the rest up to you lift the rest up to Allah right um you just do the best you can
good that's interesting that you should just say that you the best you prepared for which then
takes you down to the preparation period yeah um if you don't do well you can just sort of
say well maybe I didn't prepare well enough yeah and then you going to look at all the
reasons why I didn't prepare well enough and for the next period that's coming the next race
period is coming up like six months because it holds you accountable as well it's quite totally
it's up to you um god obviously god obviously knows knows what you want but i don't think
you just you're just given it you still have to work for it so do you do you have to practice
in your faith gratitude for what you've been given yeah gratitude is a is a big one and
and it keeps you kind of at peace and and that's honestly what i pray for if if i want to race
because like you become a dangerous opponent when you're just at peace and you're calm and
chilled yeah and and that's all you ask for and then the rest is up to you to execute the race
right that's interesting you become a dangerous opponent um in that
you're not putting too much pressure on you know your biochemics chemistry that that's your you
know your cortisol and your adrenaline all that sort of stuff you know because i do want to talk
to you about um nervousness before a race that adrenal fatigue maybe you could
take me through that i mean we'll take our audience through that i've experienced but like
what does it mean so i want to know how you control your state of mind and have you had
some really crazy moments where your heart's pumping so hard you know and by the way this
happens to everybody especially in the early stages of their career sporting career um that
you suffer fatigue because 800 like is 100 is explosive but 800 you've got to have endurance
you can't be fatigued no you've got to sleep properly you can't
hopefully no injuries but you've got to be able to keep your pace going and you've got to be able to
have that burst of energy at a later part of the race so you can't be burned out early early on
there's this whole thought process and strategy going into the race yeah and if all of a sudden
the strategy gets stuffed up for some reason um you know you've got to get your head around it
somehow maybe you just take me through um the way you understand your own biochemistry
in terms of being 100 ready set for your best performance in an 800 so what are you trying
to achieve the night before perhaps nutrition perhaps the week before you know what's your
little process and are there any superstitions sitting yeah so that is a really interesting
question and i think it's it's a huge question because i think all that stuff matters like
the preparation beforehand the night before the fuel you eat all those kind of matter and i think
that's important a lot for everyone especially like in the day before like it's it's a loophole
where i'm playing sports because you don't want to be in a in a peaceful mindset you don't want to
rock up to a start line and saying i wish i would have prepared better like that's already doubt
and when you have doubt it's it's tough to compete with that um you don't want to rock up um thinking
i've got a niggle and i'm a little bit injured that's that's another thing in your mind you want
to remove as much things out of your head to kind of stay present like the best race you've had is
being present like um you spoke before about um obviously your strategy can go out the way the 800s
to have a strategy for because in that first 200 you're all in different lanes and then you cross
over so your strategy might be i want to be first across that line and then you end up being at the
back what do i do now and um you have to prepare for those in training you have to and the best
race i've had is just being present and your body and your muscle memory just knows when to make
those moves because if you think if you're trying to think about should i make that move someone's
already made it and you're too late like there's no time for error there's no time for thinking
it's like just muscle memory making those moves and um a few races that i've raced really well and
and i was like going through first lap going through second lap and and there's a gap open
i didn't think about i just moved and a race that i was thinking about should i take that gap
by the time i decided someone's already taken it and you're kind of set at the back so you've got
to be absolutely present and to be present you've got to be calm and there's things you kind of do
and apply like before every race i'll do my breathing um i do my prayers whatever just
to try to get myself in that calm state and you rock up to a stadium with like uh i remember
commonwealth games i rocked up the stadium i think it was like like sold that crowd and
and you don't really hit a crowd you're just you're just present because you're so far within
your own mind and and when i when i have no distraction and thinking about anything else
i know it's going to be a good race versus if i'm thinking about like injury thinking about
the next opponent thinking about that i know it's going to be a difficult race so are there
some things you rule out then during let's say you're getting ready for the calm games
and uh or any other equivalent um do you sort of say okay for the next six six months before
um i don't know what the period is for prep i mean obviously it's it's a long prep probably
it's years but the the last six months before you you you compete or race do you sort of say
okay rule out girlfriend i don't know in your case girlfriend boyfriend whatever it happens
to be but let's say it's a girlfriend um rule out relationships one because
you know like and i'm looking for like strict rules um i rule out um late nights i really
had hanging out with my mates i really blah blah these things you cannot do yeah because
they're distractions yeah and or things that could change your peace of mind yeah give
you that little thing that pisses you off that sort of will you know because in your
case we're talking about points of a second yeah you know a tenth of a second is a is
a you know that far
yeah at the speed you guys are running so do you like have a a mindset a structure that you
stick to like a game plan yeah and and part of that is actually ruling out training hard
oh really yeah because you don't want to rock up to a start line fatigued and too tired so you want
to be peaking and that's the hardest one because you always want to push at training because i need
more i need more i need more kilometers i need more but the reality is you're not gonna you're
not gonna get any fitter in a week but you're not gonna get any fitter in a week but you're not gonna
get any fitter in a week but what you can get in a week is get injured right you're not gonna get
any better so um so ruling out hard training is is probably one of the most important thing because
because an athlete at our level like if you're like of course you're only human and you still
face distractions and you face all this stuff but you've you've kind of worked out a system where
where you work that stuff out um it's it's like you don't get there by fluke like you've ruled
out distractions you've ruled out um like late nights before a race and all that stuff like
if you still have to rule that out you've got a long way to go um at that at that high level
you've gotta you've gotta be able it's to do with training i think most importantly training
sleep um recovery so important so important you've gotta get the physio uh some of these things are
like just time right they're boring like why why do i want to go to physio go get a massage
why do i need to stretch like why do i have to sleep early and all those things
but you've got to do these things and um
and so what period of time do you need to be able to do these things
would you be doing that for us because it could of course it can get a bit i'd imagine
it can get a bit boring yeah yeah and and for me for me it's got to be like i know i've got a race
in about about six uh two months or something like that um i'll have a training camp and that's where
everything is ruled out in training camp you go away so we usually go up sometimes i'll go up to
paris in um i think new south wales and and there naturally rules out all distractions like there's
nothing to do with that so i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not sure
there's nothing to do in paris other than i then kind of run and be a piece of yourself um so you
rule it out through training camps is a great way to do it like you set yourself up for a training
camp for three weeks and you're there just purely training getting the right food and that's all
you're doing is running i think it's harder to rule out when you're when you're back home
because now you've got friends family you've got everything so instead of avoiding distractions
you just move away from it so when you're saying you're you're you move away from distractions
would you would you do you take it you know
like ipads and start do you get sort of stuck in things like youtube or whatever i mean yeah
what what do you do to what do you or you're meditating i don't know what's going on it's
whatever you're passionate about because um majority of our training is recovery right
you got to recover enough which means you have time you have so much time yeah and you don't
want to get on the other side of of underperforming which which is boredom boredom can also lead to
underperforming so you don't want to be too bored so number one you've got to have the right the
training group that's around you that that you kind of enjoy being around because you don't
want to be in your head the whole time that's not helpful so yeah you take your ipad you take
your books um you have some friends some of the best training camps i've had is um going going
overseas and just calling a few friends and and just running with them or perth i'd get some of
my brothers and some of the people i grew up with to come and do training with me they're not
professional athletes they're not even runners but they'll come the beauty of it was just being
amongst people because if you're doing a lot by yourself it gets really hard so you're not really
trying to rule out everything because you get too bored you've got to be able to like leading up to
a championship you've got to be able to make sure everything's the same you don't want to change too
many things you don't want to completely rule out everyone you don't you just end up stressing
yourself that's so i tried to stay pretty pretty calm and pretty normal but obviously like less of
everything less of training less of socializing less of going out um and then you've got to be
more of recovery more of sleep more of eating good and all that stuff it sounds pretty intense
though in intense in a sort of reverse way in that the um it's everything on the edges doesn't
exist you're just sort of keeping everything within a nice range pretty much which that's
sort of intense in itself because you know human beings by nature wanted to go to the edge
and push beyond and let's do this a little bit extra training or let's do something a bit
crazy whatever especially when you're a young man you know i mean like it's pretty natural um
but keeping it all in a you know like a a contained space in itself is quite intense
i would have thought yeah i mean like and do you ever get to the point where you say why am i doing
this yeah yeah heaps of times and what do you do then um like through different years you kind of
go through it like i got to the edge through training and i got injured before before the
2018 commonwealth games which is the one i was looking forward to the most being in australia
so i pushed myself to the edge through training too hard then so after that i've learned like
you've got to you've got to train smart you've got to be wise and you're going to not push too
hard sometimes right and what does it mean you end up getting an overuse injury overuse injury
so i had a stress fracture yeah yeah so overuse just repetition repetition repetition yep um
so i pushed myself through that edge and and then other times um i went to training camps
with with just purely runners remember i'm not really that interested in
in the running itself i'm i'm kind of interested in the training yeah and developing myself right
so going purely with like passionate runners and then you just you just mentally drain yourself and
no matter how hard i'm training my performance is going down like that's that's not where i belong
that's too intense for me so it's all about you finding finding finding your place right my place
is not to go out to go on a training camp with a bunch of runners and all we're talking about
is running and catching up after after running it's like no my place is going to camp with good
people um that i can talk outside with and it has nothing to do with running it's like that's my
place we can still train but we'll leave it all as soon as we leave that track well because when i i
i just want to change slightly change pace pardon the pun but pun intended um um when are they
i just like your maybe your opinion on this or your commentary on this but
and it's sort of a diametrically opposed to the person you just presented to me
um being yourself that is and obviously there are others similar to you but if you look at the um
the jamaicans and the usa particularly the the 100 meter the glamour events like the 100 meter
200 meter events um and you see if i could just reflect on the women's events first um they got
the massive eyelashes they got things going on with their hair and earrings and their fingernails
are huge massively long and
they're playing to the camera yeah time barely big time like it's nearly like entertainment
yeah and then the guys are the same but in a in a different format but there's a same sort of deal
you know um and they look to me that looks to me if i if that was me in their shoes that would be a
massive distraction for me um like that would be hard for me to concentrate what does what it is
i'm about to do particularly you know because this is not just on the on the night of the event
particularly in the last olympics um
they're doing this all the time in fact they made a um netflix to move a series on sprint yeah and uh
and i thought to myself it's nearly like they're marketing themselves as individuals because they've
got to make money in the future as one when they make money they get sponsorships and all sort of
stuff i get it but i thought to myself it'd be very difficult if if you're in your athletic world
to be that person especially like one minute before the race you're pitching up in front
and you're you know doing the crowd up-
et cetera, but you're presenting a different type of person to me.
What do you think about that type of, I don't want to call it behavior,
but that type of, those types of characteristics relative
to say the way you present?
I mean, I've got a good story.
I think it was my first Olympics.
I was in Rio and like, as I said, I didn't really know much
and I went to a warm-up track and you just,
you get to see every single person.
And the beauty of athletics is you're seeing every different culture
and I was there trying to warm up and it was actually quite distracting
because I was trying to see every single person.
I saw the Kenyans and East Africans.
They were just like really shy.
They're like, like look really nervous.
I was like, man, like these guys are going to underperform.
They just look too shy.
And then I looked on the other side and the Americans and Jamaicans
and Bolt Funny was there and they had music blasting
and they were just having the best time.
I was like, these guys are going to clean up the medal tally.
But because they're relaxed.
They just look so relaxed and so confident.
They're like, we're going to win.
They're in charge.
Sure, and they were in charge of everything.
But it was really interesting that at the end of the Olympics,
like the same East Africans that were shy, they collected,
they cleaned up the medals.
And you just realize it was just a personality thing.
And Bolt and stuff still collected medals.
It wasn't about their behaviors.
It wasn't about that.
It was truly about them being who they are and that's who they are.
Like they can be comfortable in their own shoes and do that stuff
and it elevates them.
But if you switch that around and you try to get,
like, a Kenyan to do what the Americans and the Jamaicans were doing,
I think it will create too much stress
and it won't be good for their performance.
So in short, it's definitely what your personality is.
And if you're putting it up, it's pretty hard.
I think, like, Noah Lyles, that's who he is.
He loves the crowd.
He gets something out of it.
Usain Bolt's the same.
He gets something out of it.
But I don't think I could go do that.
It's just not my personality.
And then it'll also create too much stress.
And then, again, creating stress,
you're not really at peace.
You're not present during the race and it's just going to underperform.
Because you did say about being, in your case at least,
being at peace and being present in the moment and without distraction.
Then I look at Noah.
Like he's – it doesn't look like he's at peace to me.
But it looks like he's completely distracted.
Yet he goes and does, you know, nearly breaks a world record.
And he wins when everyone's betting against him at the highest level.
But that comforts him.
Do you get to meet these dudes?
You get to meet them.
What are they like outside of the camera or away from the camera?
They're pretty normal.
But like their personality is not much different.
That's who they are.
They're confident.
I think it's a whole culture thing.
And I wouldn't say – for example, I wouldn't say it's Australian culture.
You don't see that.
You don't see that.
You don't see like – like we obviously clean up in the swimming pool,
but you don't see people doing all of that.
Like I would say –
I've watched American sports for a very long time.
That's their culture.
I know I've got a few Jamaican friends.
That's their culture.
They just love the hype.
They're creative.
They believe in it.
While I think in our sense, in our culture,
like even versus with Australian culture, like yes, we create the hype.
You believe in it, but you kind of still stay focused
and you just create it and it has nothing to do with you.
It's just your job to get in the pool and swim.
It's like almost you create the hype and you don't believe in it
versus you create.
You create the hype and you believe in it.
Well, if you create the hype, you've got to believe in it.
Otherwise, you'll kook it 100%.
It's funny you should say because sitting in that chair yesterday
was Cody Simpson.
And Cody came in with – there was two women came in with one of whom
was his PR person and the other person, he just said,
well, I'll see you in a minute, Em.
And I'm like, what the hell?
There's Em again.
And she was just like – because she was accompanying him
because they were –
They were a couple and he was the star for the day.
You know what I mean?
And she just took the backward step and whereas my gut feeling is
if that was an American –
It's like bring another seat.
If that was – can I sit down here with him sort of thing or whatever.
And you're right.
It's probably Australian.
Like it's – or it's not Australian to be that way.
To be that way, yeah.
And in Jamaican culture – I've never been in Jamaica but like just I expect
or I suspect from what I look at, not necessarily an athlete,
it's just generally.
They're pretty outgoing, having a lot of fun, hanging out, music,
And maybe you're right and that's like people like Bolt,
that's just – you don't have to be Hussein Bolt to have that personality.
Probably everyone in Jamaica is like that.
I think the hard thing is if you are Australian and that's your personality
and you try to show it and people are like, whoa, well, that's not who we are.
Yeah, dude, yeah.
But that's what you need to perform the best.
And I think that's the hard part.
Because then, you know, you have the public kind of against you
but that's who you are and that's what you need to perform.
So it should be fine.
Like sport is entertainment and that's what you're there for, entertainment.
Everyone has a different purpose and different reason to be there, right?
Not everyone's the same.
But if you're competing by the rules, you're competing by the rules
and your personality should show.
Do you think Australians are looking to you for entertainment
or they're looking for you – do Australians look more not just to you
but to all our competitors?
And do you think Australians are more looking for you to do your best outcome,
to try your hardest?
What do you think Australians' expectations are of our athletes and swimmers?
I think the Australian expectation is go out there and give it a go.
Like give it all you can.
That's the expectation.
With the US, it's like the expectations are like go out there and win.
Because they believe they're the best at everything, right?
It's like go out there and win.
It's like Australia, like go out there, do your best.
And both create different comforts, right?
When you're going out there doing your best, it's like, well,
you don't have that pressure of trying to impress and do everyone proud
and all that stuff.
You're just going out there and being you.
And that's what we want from you, right?
While America, I think it creates a very competitive world
and like they're dominating a lot of sports because like if you're going to Olympics,
we want to see medals and it's intense.
But they still get results.
Both get results.
So it's like it's just where you're at.
I was just thinking whilst I was talking to you then,
the only other person I've really met in person and I have a friendship with him
was Johnny Stephenson, who's a 400 runner.
And Johnny used to always talk to me about, and he actually, we got him,
I put him into the Celebrity Apprentice, one of the series,
because Jeff Fennec asked me what I do.
Because did you know that John Stephenson originally was an amateur fighter?
Before he even put a pair of running shoes on.
His first pair of running shoes, like he was 21 or something.
He'd had like 30 amateur fights as an amateur boxer and then he went into the 400,
he became a 400 runner, went to the Olympics and he went to the Commonwealth Games.
I think he won a Commonwealth Games medal.
He's a great example of a person whose personality is similar to Jamaican's.
One of my favourite people.
That's what I was thinking when we were talking there.
He's got, Johnny Steph's got that.
And he's good mates with Bolt, for example.
Yeah, exactly right.
They're great mates.
They're sort of similar characteristics.
And another great success story for Australia in terms of, you know,
I guess 400 is middle distance, but middle distance runner,
but came out of nowhere, literally came out of nowhere.
I think he's South African, not South African,
but like southern part of Africa where his family is.
You're more north of, northern part of Africa.
It is more north.
Sudan is more north of Africa.
Sudan is in the east.
It's East Africa.
But it's more to the top.
Yeah, it's more, yeah.
Less towards the bottom.
By the way, when you say Khartoum, did you know, you probably don't know
because you're much too young for it, but 40 years ago there was an unbelievably
great movie called Khartoum.
The movie was called Khartoum.
It's a real old black and white movie.
I'm old enough to remember.
And it was like one of the greatest movies of all time.
Like, you know, like some really famous actors were in it.
I can't remember.
Peter O'Toole and those sorts of people, like people, again,
you would never have heard of.
And Khartoum to me, when I saw it, when I was a kid, but Khartoum,
my memory of Khartoum and the only memory I have of it
because I've never been there, is a very exotic place.
And I just, I don't know why, just exotic from the way the film came across.
And then when I hear, when someone like you tells me a story
about how it's been bitten by war for such a long time,
it's sort of a little bit of anathema for me.
It's nearly like how can that be because Khartoum was such a, in my mind,
such a romantic sounding place and the vision of what I saw
on the TV in the movie.
Well, I'm 68, so actually it's more than 40 years ago.
It's 60 years ago I saw the movie.
I was just a kid.
And like 60 years ago there was a movie called Khartoum
and it was presented like, and it wasn't a movie of the time,
it was a movie representing what was happening in the 1920s.
So it must have been a pretty cool place at some stage, Khartoum.
Do you know of anything of that?
Do you know of a period when Khartoum was considered a safe and vibrant
and exotic place?
Me personally, I wouldn't say I have because I left when I was six
and I never went back versus my family went back when I was competing
and stuff like that.
I was too busy to go and they quite enjoyed it.
It was really nice.
They had all the family around and people there was like, you know,
they just, as long as they have each other and they have family around
And that's their culture, like music and dancing
and combining everyone around.
That to them is all needed.
And, yeah, when I was at school I think that time was there
but it wasn't there for long enough unfortunately
and it's nothing consistent.
It's a sort of a terrible shame when you think,
when I hear people like you tell me that about a place like Sudan
and or Khartoum being, is it the capital?
The capital, yeah.
Yeah, it's the capital of Sudan.
Capital of Sudan and Juba is the capital of the south.
So when it comes to mindset,
when it comes to mindset and not having distractions,
I mean we have to cover this off,
but like when they allegedly took the positive test for you,
from you, just take me through how it works.
So did you have to do a urine test, blood test?
What's the process?
Yeah, we have to do a urine test.
After every event or just randomly?
And they can also come to your house and do random testing
and you select an hour.
And my hour is generally in the morning.
So then it's a urine test?
It's a urine or blood.
They can do both.
Oh, they can ask for blood too?
They can ask for blood.
The majority of times it's urine and blood, yeah.
And you give an A sample, B sample, something like that.
You give more than one sample.
It's just the same sample.
They just put it in different vials.
They just put B and an A.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I followed it and it was a bit of a shock to everybody.
If you had taken something, what would be the net effect of it,
like physically in a biochemical way or a biological way?
What would something like that do for you?
Or an 800-meter run?
I guess I suppose you get fitter, fitter quicker.
But what's it do to your blood or build muscle?
What's it supposed to do?
Like is it supposed to?
Is it supposed to make your lungs get bigger or something like that?
No, I think it increases your red blood cells, which makes you.
More red blood cells, which carries more oxygen around your system.
More oxygen, yeah.
It's endurance, endurance.
And more for endurance.
So how did you feel?
Like how did you know about it?
Like what happens?
They come and tell you.
Like they come to your house and tell you.
They say, we got this result.
They physically come to your house?
They physically come to your house, yeah.
And then what happens?
And then you can kind of ask for your B sample.
And then you kind of on the waiting process until that B sample comes.
And which, you know, you learn a lot.
When you go through something like that, you learn a lot.
And then, and you learn that like, at that time you think you're like doing because the
B sample, I mean, it's the same sample.
It never comes different.
Like why would it come different?
If it's one's positive, the other one should be positive.
Just take it on the same day.
So you still, you still select it.
At the time, I didn't even know if there was a point.
You still select it.
At the time, I didn't even know if there was a point because they always come the same,
but somehow they came different.
I was like, well, that's an error in your side then.
So why don't they test the B sample straight away?
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Wait, what's the point of? Yeah, that's a really good question.
I mean, why are they going, oh shit, hang on, this one is giving us an anomaly.
We're not going to get out of the scene. We'll just test the bead sample first.
Yeah. And then ones, they're different.
They should do that. But at that stage, I don't think anyone's really trying to do you any favors,
right? Why? I mean, it seems like they're trying to catch out.
But I also think, I also think.
I also think because if, if the A sample is, is positive, they just think the B sample is going
to be positive too, because it's the same sample. Yeah. And, but I also think.
So therefore they should test it straight away.
Should test it straight away. It's such a big, big accusation.
You should, you should do all the work.
The gravity of the accusation is so great.
That they should, before they make the accusation.
And then they commence this whole process of the gravity.
That they should test the B sample straight away and go, hang on, let's just go, let's just talk.
To Peter, because these, there's an anomaly between the two.
Yeah. And I think if you, if you had the time to come to my house, you've obviously had the time
to test the B sample before coming.
Coming as well. Like if, if you're going to come accuse me or something like that,
and which, which is hard, right? I think if, if you're not on the right mindset,
it could destroy you. So if, if you're coming to do that, you, you, you better be sure. Like
you, there's some things you just can't be incompetent in. And that's one of them
because you're putting someone else's life.
And who was, which organization?
Is it a water? Who's doing the test?
I actually don't know who does the testing. I think the testings are done by, I think sports
integrity maybe, and in the lab, and then they're taken out to Germany and whatnot.
And that's where the results.
Was this before anything that was important for you? Or was this pre-event?
Yeah, it was actually pretty important. Australian of the Year Award. That was.
That's pretty important.
That is pretty important. And I was actually looking forward to go to it.
And how close was it to the event?
I think it was just two days.
Two days before, before it was leaked and publicly it was.
So, so, so, but what is the obligation of the testing authority to pub, publish it?
It shouldn't have been published.
Well then how, how did it get out?
No one, no one claims to ever know. Um, it was leaked somewhere.
Did you get a call by media?
Uh, no, I actually didn't. I got called by my, my agent and he said that it's been leaked.
So in other words, the newspaper is going to print it or a radio station or television.
The radio station is going to talk about it.
And it printed out so quick.
And what was your response? How did you feel?
At that stage? I actually didn't know how to feel right. Um, cause I just didn't know how to feel.
I was, I was kind of at home and, and like, I think the first thing I actually thought about it was my family.
I was like, man, that's, that's tough. Um, that's tough. That's tough for them.
Yeah. And because with such excitation, you know, you're just not you on your own now.
It's like everyone else is put into question, like your family, your character.
Um, your coach, your staff team. Uh, so I just thought about all those people.
Um, I think I was the last person I thought about, which I think was tough.
I should have thought about myself as well.
Yeah. You gotta be a bit selfish.
I think when it comes to reputation. Did you reach out to anybody?
Uh, yeah, I reached out. Well, because I knew, I knew, um, I knew the results before I was, I was waiting for the B sample.
So I actually reached out to, I reached out to my older brother, which, because I didn't know how to communicate that to my parents.
Right. So I said, if it ever gets leaked, like I need you to explain it to them and that there should be, they'll be okay.
And then obviously my coach, I reached out to my coach, let him know straight away.
Um, and, and that's it.
And my manager, like no one else really.
So what do you do then just stay home?
I mean, I don't know.
You literally just, just stay home and, and you're just waiting.
and you're just waiting keep your head down keep your head down but at that stage i was like
i was like surely they made a mistake this is crazy um and i was still gonna go to australian
d year awards and then after that after that leak it was like now like what do you do so what does
the australian awards organization do with everything ever say you can't come or not
actually you know what they're actually really good they're actually really good about it they
said look um i remember i got a call and and i thought it was pretty it was pretty good of them
and they said look um like we know what's going on and we'd love to still have you if you want
to come but just to let you know we've we've had the most media requests to be here they'll be
everywhere they'd be everywhere and you'll end up and that's your decision to make you're just
still the night yeah yeah and you're still the night and i said and that's exactly that was my
decision was based on that i said i do not want to steal that night um for anyone um i'm not coming
i mean for a young man relatively young man at that stage as well
you know you you leave a war torn or a civil war torn um sudan you go to live in egypt you end up
in toowoomba then you go to perth and you go through this whole process and you know you're
representing your country you get um nominated to be an australian of the year which is pretty
cool because you weren't even australian like 20 years ago totally yeah it's like it's it's
this is magnificent sort of um momentum yeah for you and your family and everybody else
your whole community yeah who you represent
good energy right totally and then you just get whack yeah um like you've gone from
the penthouse to the proverbial in minutes minutes yeah
how do you pick yourself up like um i think people was people played a big part and as like we spoke
before that the identity out of sport is is really important and i've always worked on that like um
again your faith plays a big part uh and you just like you just you're just more at peace you're
you just you just leave the rest to god right you can do all you can do and at that point there's
nothing you could actually do yeah there's nothing you could do like what was there to
do other than control your own your own mindset and your your own happiness and that's not with
saying that you don't go through it you go through this rollercoaster of emotions like um
you feel like the whole world is against you um you feel betrayed uh and like that feeling
betrayal is tough because because like i've i've done nothing i've done nothing wrong like this is
this is one is is it's not fair two i'm just trying to run like that's all i've ever tried to do
and and then the worst part is is like well who's bringing these allegations against you like then
you start to look for the blame and then and then you look for the blame and that's and that's when
you lose probably the most sleep because you can never truly know who it is um who leaked it what
was the intentions behind it you just never know and why would they be bothered doing it but why why
like why upset like why me right um i think that's where you lose the most peace um i think that's
still where i lose the most peace trying to think about it today because you just don't have answers
you want answers yeah if if if you're done wrong at least give me answers right yeah but there's no
but there's no answers do you have suspicions uh yeah i have my suspicions i think i definitely
have my suspicions and um but the best thing about it i think the public was actually really good that
how did you gauge that um i i think one from from the love and support you get three messages like
on social media and stuff yeah like social media like you expect you expect you expect your family
to be with you which is which is which is great um but then you also you don't expect you like when
you go through something like that you think oh man now they might turn against you but no one
really did like of course you have those keyboard warriors and whatnot but they were always there
i was doing great it's like oh you're not australian you're not that um so that was always
there like you kind of get used to that but i think it would have hurt quite a lot if um majority of
the public kind of turned against you but they didn't and yeah what was the process do you have
a right of appeal or something how do you get the b sample i mean do you have to go to court to get
them to look at it or has it no you just you select that you want it you want um i guess retested and
all that stuff and they kind of retested for you and and again i think it was leaked i had a friend
that called me and said your b sample was wasn't the same as your a before i was notified by the
authorities themselves so it was leaked somewhere else before before i was told first what sort of
level of relief did you feel when the b sample it was my manager called me and he was had the
most relief and he was like and he was kind of like he was kind of like he was kind of like he
was kind of like he was kind of like he was kind of like he was kind of like he was kind of like
the same sense of relief because i was like man this should have never happened it like
like what do you want me to celebrate like this is this is crazy like i had to even go through that
um i think the relief i kind of had again thinking about other people was like uh
well like my family was really happy everything was really happy but but for me i was like man
this is this is still crazy right like this it doesn't change much doesn't change the accusation
doesn't change a lot so there wasn't much of relief there was still disappointment and anger
for that whole period
and i did not feel any relief yeah because the the outcome didn't change what happened no the the
the result did not change what had happened what had happened yeah and by the way you can't change
that you can't yeah so how do you deal with that i mean how how do you reconcile and you know go
back to where you were talking about very much earlier about being at peace you can definitely
go back at peace but you can't go back to where you were before do you need to i don't think you
need to it just becomes part of your story
yeah and and the easiest way is accepted that it happened and and try to move on yeah but with that
said it's pretty hard to accept something like that and and i thought i could do it pretty quickly
because like as an athlete you build resilience and you build that but like i build resilience
based on like things that you you knew would happen like injury not making teams um things
you expect things you expect like something like that is it's pretty hard it's pretty hard to get
get through and and you realize like it's going to take time and
and time is the only only thing that's going to heal it but time and extra work you got to see
people you got to talk through it and all that stuff which i didn't want to do i had no interest
in doing at all did you just sort of take a view them yeah all the time yeah all the time
probably doesn't solve anything though does it no it actually just hurts you more yeah yeah you've
got to sort of talk it through and yeah and at the end of the day richard branson once told me this
mark he said we all worry about our own brand if 50 of the people if 100 of the people
know who you are for whatever reason good or bad and only 50 of the people like you then you've
you've done well yeah that doesn't matter about the other 50 that's pretty cool so events like this
you know 100 of the australians know who peter bowl is if only 50 like you and 50 don't like you
usually the ones who don't like you will tell you yeah the other 50 who don't tell you is because
they do like you and they they most people don't come out and say i like you yeah if they don't
like you they'll definitely tell you that's sort of uh actually one measure of success from his
point of view yeah in terms of branding personal branding and that is really cool yeah yeah and um
and i'd say that's probably i mean the research my team's done on you that's sort of where you
are yeah i mean i don't know if it's 50 50 but there's a lot of people some people come and say
stuff about you whatever yeah but there's a lot of people who actually back you yeah and they back
you in and uh you know that's that's a pretty good outcome you know you're only still young yeah you're
30 years old now aren't you 30 yeah yeah so like you've lived three lives already yeah for 30 year
old and you've got a long way to go too and one of the things i want to talk to you about speaking
about that is what most people don't realize is that um you have at least one university degree
um and i don't know how
the hell you managed to do that and what period of your life did you do this is a degree in project
management or construction management construction yeah yeah but how did you do that um and why'd you
do that i don't know i've always been i've always been interested in in like being a student because
that's that's what my that's that's my parents inspiration like yeah like coming here right it's
everyone's everyone's first first generation you yeah you are gonna go to university get some some
like you just you just gotta work and and make a better life for yourself and um i'm really
interested in like real estates and and property right so i've always been into that my brother was
my brother was a builder so and then i was i kind of got more interested in that because again
like the inspiration was always to build a house for yourself buy your own house and
and all those things so i was like why not study that but then interestingly enough when um
when i was studying and i worked when i came to melbourne and i worked for engineering for a
for about for about a year it was really cool just learning about different projects and what's
going on and and i decided to take athletics more seriously i actually got more interested in
business and i was like well um like i think i think business is where i think i might belong
i enjoy that a little bit more i still enjoy property but not as much as i would want to work
in the construction space like i'll do more real estate things like property development and
whatnot uh but outside of that like i'll enjoy the business i enjoy the speaking and and going
out so i'm in sydney i'm in sydney this week to do to do a conference and i was like man i love
that i love sharing going out sharing my story and impacting 100 hundreds of people and you try
to show how your story can actually or the lessons from your story can be um of assistance to people
in the business world like you see you're talking to business people yeah yep yeah so you
you or my story is i guess the most common is like the resilience part of the thing that's that's
before the accusations like that's just one of it like before that like finding your place and
everything kind of spoke about here uh being a good leaders is really important because um you're
put in this position as a leader and you never signed up for it like when i when i i did well
in tokyo i was like everyone kind of looking up to you for leadership is like tokyo is when you
were your fourth when i came forth is that the fastest 800 you've ever run no i ran faster
um what are you running tokyo 44 one see i don't even know but it was 44 something 44 one i think
yeah and what and you've run what a second quicker i ran 144 zero so one 144 so like you know a few
tenths of a second faster but that's actually quite a long that's quite a bit of distance
yeah at the pace you're running yeah so you and then and and and then from there in which when
you went to paris between tokyo and paris you had the
drama yeah did that affect your preparation do you think between absolutely um with the whole
scandal yeah yeah 100 like like i've already didn't have as much passion as i spoke before
as everyone else it was just easier to pull away from it completely it was like this thing that
brought you so much joy now is bringing you so much pain like why am i spending my time here
yeah it's just a no-brainer like spend less time here so there was lack of training lack of
interest and i just i just i just i just i just i just i just i just i just i just i just i just
just didn't want to be around there right uh and and at that top stage you can't be taking a month
off two weeks off no matter what mental state you're in right it's it's good for your mental
health but it's definitely not great for your athletics to take time off yeah um he's gonna
one is gonna give and i decided to work on my health more than my athletics and it just showed
in paris but but i'm grateful that i did it that way because i think i think my my mental mental
health was more important at that stage and how important is it
for you to turn up in paris like i don't mean that in a bad way but like yeah actually get there
and compete more for peter yeah you know and also what we think of peter bowl yeah as australians
as opposed to sort of saying look i know i'm not ready i'm i i'm not going to run a 144 flat
yeah um but i'm still going to turn up because you know you probably were the quickest nonetheless
you're still the quickest in australia anyway yeah in terms of the national at a national level
so you know you're the
dude who's going to get has the right to go yeah but you know you're not going to run that same
time because you're just not you don't know but like there's in terms of probability statistically
you know it's less likely of being successful and it then it would have been if you hadn't
gone through this drama yeah how important is it for you to actually turn up it was
it was pretty important and i figured out pretty late because i think only if a month before that
i decided like to stop training i was like i don't really want to go there
i just i just didn't want to be there like stuff it like you know yeah i've always i've always
rocked up into a championship like training the best i could and and wanting to be there it's like
when you don't want to be there it's not fun yeah so i think just a month before that i took some
time off i didn't want to really go there i went back i was actually in america went back home
and i said no i'll message my coach and manager i said look i'm going to make a decision
uh whether i want to be there or not and then once you get back home and you work through it it's
like um maybe it's bigger than that that's like i'm not going to be there i'm not going to be there
it's like my third olympics and and i've worked pretty hard on that and i think the idea of
of not being there and the aftermath of it in the future is like you're not a three-time olympian
i was like oh man i kind of need to be there for myself like i think you need to be there for us
too and i need to be there yeah i think we need you to be there that supported me right yeah yeah
i mean i think that australians who follow you and follow that particular event yeah needed to be there
to see you there we didn't necessarily expect you we'd hope you you might do a 144 flat or even
something less um but i don't think we had that expectation because i think most people who know
anything about sport know that your preparation wouldn't have been proper yeah from you know from
tokyo to paris yeah it's just not possible because of the intervention
but we still wanted to see you as our best runner yeah in that event there yeah and i've got so many
incredible like so many people were like we we can't wait to watch you watch you compete and
even after i was like oh like i mean you you gave it your best and um keep your head up and all that
stuff so it's like that 50 that you're talking about i mean i think some people probably weren't
happy that i was there either but but that's fine like i mean you've you've got to kind of
you've got to kind of accept that it's an old saying mate fuck the begrudges
but i know i don't
leave it on that on that night because i actually been getting criticized lately for
swearing a bit too much but um a few people pull me up about it but uh and i just say well
bad fucking luck it's my podcast it's my work i can do it i can do it on one that's why i do it
so i can say what i want but no but i but i believe that stop them you know there will be people who
don't want don't believe in you and but it's got probably got something more to do with them than
it's got to do with you yeah and uh and i just think it was wonderful that you you did you did
go there and you did do your best but your best is only going to be as good as you're going to be
doing and i just think it's definitely gonna be the best as you can you know you're going to get
used to it and that's your prep that's that takes us right back to where we started from your
preparation facts and uh you know and but at the same time you you're prepared to take that risk
yourself because that's a risk yeah if you know that you're not going to perform your best
yeah but you still perform it's a massive risk because also like we spoke about like i've
obviously prioritized my mental health that's a massive risk because that can come back down and
do well at the same time you could and how do you feel after it so now we're being just post-pregnancy
paris i mean yeah you feel okay yeah i feel pretty good i obviously don't feel good about
the performance like absolutely not like i'm that's that's not the standard i want to be
competing at um what i feel good about is like um i think working up the courage to to get to
that start line yeah that's and that's a complete like the story's completely shifted the goals
completely shifted divisions completely shifted like um four years ago when i finished fourth
like the goal was like now the race to try do one better if not if not try a medal the next
olympics and through the interruptions like man let's let's just try to get there but that's our
expectations to some extent like and and sometimes we have to say as individuals i just could do my
best and that takes us right back to what you said about australians yeah we just want you to
have a crack just have a crack and do your best yeah but i actually think that is probably the
case for most australians in terms of what they expected from you they expect you to have a crack
have a crack that's right you are our best yeah at that at that event so you know like you went
and had a crack you did your best that's it yeah and i think most people and the purpose of these
having you for example on the show today for my point of view anyway selfishly is to say to
australians this is the dude who did have a crack and did do his best under the circumstances which
like i didn't really understand all the circumstances i mean i knew one of the
circumstances but the generally how you how you think and how you how you roll
and the objective of a show like this actually is to you know parlay that out to anyone who might
want to listen to this yeah and there'll be there will be there'll be you know two three hundred
thousand people will listen to this yeah and which is our normal cadence so and i think that's
important and that's why i think shows like this are important and that's why it takes a lot of
courage for you to come onto the show and tell your story so close to you know paris it's only
three four weeks ago um you know i think people appreciate that in this country it might be
maybe america's a bit different it might be a bit there might be harder markers there yeah you know
there because as you said earlier americans want you to win expectations are different yeah totally
different and then when you sign up for an america you sign up for that yeah if you didn't sign up
in australia that's not what we ask you to sign up for and i think australians just like to see
someone who can actually roll through the drama yeah and uh and as you said like that's real
resilience intellectual resilience mental resilience i think
like standing up standing up on the the starting they're not blocks whatever you call the starting
line um there must be in a moment you must have thought yourself here i am yeah you know before
the ever which lane will you win i was seven yeah it had to be crossover seven is on which seven
seven at the 200 you have to cross cross in yeah you must be thinking to yourself wow what a
years i've had since uh tokyo like does that those thoughts go through your mind or were you were you
at peace and in at them in the moment i was actually at peace in the moment uh and and again
i think if i had the right preparation it would have been a great olympic games um because to be
at peace on the track is it's always been my goal and how i compete to the best of my ability and
and without the interruption sometimes i've rocked up to the track without having that peace
in the moment i was like you know the difference i know the difference and it was like yeah we we're
healed and and we're back just not under the right circumstances not on the right conditioning
but in the right mind mindset do you think you will leave this part of your life with any regrets
that's a good question i think definitely yes yes i think i'll definitely have a lot of regrets
in the sport um probably not competing as much as i i should have and not taking advantage of
of the opportunities in the sport because but i'd also leave pretty happy of the life that i built
outside of it and the opportunities that i've received i received through it and also also the
person that i've built through it that's really important and that i could never take any regret
from peter um to be honest with you it's uh for 30 years it's a fabulous story like like actually
a wonderful story yeah and the way you just summarize it then that's pretty cool um you've
got a a backstory which in 30 years time when you're 60 you'll be
think to yourself wow what an opportunity for me to experience all those things i don't mean
you know the the allegations but the experience of the allegation and being able to deal with
it yourself and get through it and still stand at the starting line in the you know the third
olympics and still doing your very best and maintaining your integrity and uh your family's
integrity and being able to get up and talk about it and accepting what's happened yeah and not
letting it knock you down that's an amazing story
that's just amazing and the fact you're sitting here so calm and keeping us in that same lane
you've kept us in the same lane no it's about peace your own peace your own peace of mind
yeah which you know most people never achieve it i'm 68 i'm still chasing peace of mind
you know people say oh you've done all these things for me but i still don't have peace of
mind i'm still chasing it i'm still trying to achieve it and here you are 30 you can still
at the highest level by the way yeah olympic games so mate congratulations well done no thank you
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