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I'm Mike Boris and this is Straight Talk.
Sex, crime, they're the two big ones in terms of podcasts.
Why are people so obsessed?
The sex or the crime?
I don't want you to talk about sex.
I'm not going to explain to you why they're obsessed about sex.
Okay, let's talk about crime then.
Gary Jubiler, Jubes, welcome to Straight Talk, mate.
You know, people would say it's an obsession,
but if you put your hand up to run murder investigations,
you should be obsessed.
Quite often I've been asked by people,
how do you keep going on the investigation for 20 years?
I look to the families of the victim and say,
they're the ones that drive me.
I would joke, but I'm not joking,
that when my relationships weren't in a good place,
it was a bad time for the crooks,
because I had more time to concentrate on doing police work.
Gary Jubiler, Jubes, welcome to Straight Talk, mate.
Thanks for having me on.
Fucking long time since coming here, mate.
Like, I don't know what the deal is.
How come it's taken so long for you and I to get together?
We've been a little bit busy, a few things going on, both sides,
but I'm glad I'm here now.
I never got that rematch with you, mate, because you left the cops.
Oh, that's where it stems from.
I never got that rematch with you.
I mean, I have to tell everybody.
Gary and I jumped in the ring some years ago,
and at that stage I was undefeated when I was ambassador
to the New South Wales Police Boxing.
And the commissioner at the time was Mick Fuller,
and Mick Fuller came.
He came over to me just before we were about to get it on,
and he said, I hope he fucking kills you.
And that sort of rocked me a little bit before I was about to get
in the ring with him.
And he can fight this bloke.
So he won the match fair and square, and good on you, mate.
Well, just on that, Mark, it was a good night,
and a lot of money was raised for charity,
and I know you've been a big sponsor of police boxing.
I did feel guilty in taking victory on that night,
but as we know, it could have been,
it could have gone,
You got a standing eight on me.
You clocked me real good.
You put a big right hand on me.
And I thought, fuck this.
I'm going to go and square up with this guy.
And I remember grabbing hold of you.
It was an old thing, Jeff Fenwick, good mate of both of ours.
But Jeff told me, he said, so I grabbed hold of your left arm,
and I remember you bracing.
I thought, I'll just give him a quick twist.
I gave him a quick twist just for the sake of it.
But it was a good night, and we do look after police legacy,
and it's important to look after police legacy.
Well, I don't want to talk about your podcast just yet
because, you know, you have a very successful podcast
and you've had lots of successful shows.
We'll come back to that in a second.
But you were a policeman for a long time,
and something that I was getting told when you were prepping for me,
I was getting told things like, this bloke,
I'm talking about you, is obsessed as an individual.
And he, they were telling me that he's training at all sorts of hours,
Getting up at different times of the night and jumping,
hitting a bag or whatever you're doing.
And I thought, wow, here's an interesting character.
And I probably didn't take it seriously enough.
But you, have you always been, no matter what your undertaking is,
particularly when you're a policeman, been an obsessive sort of person in that?
I don't know, I don't mean in a sick sort of way,
but in a sense that I've got to do the best job I possibly can.
Yeah, I think that's fair to say.
It's probably instilled into me from a father that was always pushing me.
He was a hard man, always pushing me to go harder and further.
I don't think I'm naturally talented at any one thing,
but what I can do is really apply myself and commit to it.
So, yeah, using the boxing as an example.
Okay, I've got a fight coming up.
I'm going to get myself as prepared as I can be and don't take shortcuts.
That certainly worked for the police too.
People often said, like the naysayers, oh, he's too passionate and all that.
I think just lazy people.
I think you've got to have passion for what you're doing,
especially the majority of my career was homicide detective.
But, yeah, driven.
Do those around me pay the price?
And this is, you know, I can reflect back and look at things,
the mistakes I've made with people that were close to me
because I was focused on what I was doing.
And homicide investigation is very hard not to really buy into it.
You're on a case, so everything else falls by the wayside
and you've got to do it.
You've got to be able to pick up the pieces afterwards.
I mean, a lot of cops that I've known, you know these guys as well as I do,
they retire early and sometimes, you know, they call it stress
or whatever the case may be, but it doesn't matter.
They retire early because the job does get to them.
How is it, or maybe it did, how is it it never really got to you?
Yeah, well, I suppose others will say it has.
I always maintained a balance or tried to maintain a balance.
A long time ago, you know, 25 years or so, I was, got into martial arts,
but I also got into meditation, yoga and a thing, a practice called Qigong.
And I think that that helped me, that helped me keep a balance
and I relied on that.
And it's not that I practiced every day and it didn't make me the most zen person
in the world, but it made me have something in my back pocket
that I could go to when I was feeling the stress.
I also maintained physical fitness and, you know, boxing.
Swayed of taking the pressures of the day away because you're not worried
about anything else other than trying not to get kicked or hit in the head.
So, yeah, I balanced it out that way.
But, yeah, I've been fortunate and I've had friends that have burnt out
and you can see it and it comes as a shock.
You think that is the last person I would have thought put their hand up
and say I've had enough.
But it just hits people in different ways and, yeah, I carry some of the demons
from the time in the cops.
Especially working homicide.
But I just, I don't know, just my mantra is just take the next step forward.
Just keep moving forward.
And there's nothing wrong, by the way, with admitting you burnt out either.
I mean, like, made it both for us, Alan Clark.
I mean, Clark, he's a tough guy.
Saw a lot of stuff in his days, you know.
Sort of got to him in the end and he'd be the first to admit it.
I'm not saying in the out of school here.
But it's like Clark, he just saw so much and put up with so much.
And then you can't keep storing it for your whole life.
And by the way, outlets like training, exercise, I know you still train.
You mentioned earlier to me that you're still doing five days a week training
with Johnny Lewis down at Urca.
We won't say the location because we don't want to let anybody know
who's probably out there who doesn't like you.
Perhaps you left a few of those in your wake.
So we're not going to say where.
But, you know, you still train.
But at the end of the day, it's not just training.
It's not just meditating or doing yoga perhaps.
I don't think it's that.
I think there's more to it.
I think it's about understanding what it is you've been doing
and why you've been doing it and what the purpose of it is and why you do it.
So maybe you just help me out here.
Obviously, I'm not a cop.
I've never been a cop.
But what is it that Gary Jubelin has done that has allowed him not to go nuts?
Like having purpose is something that's important.
I get it when I'm working a homicide investigation.
My whole career is littered with families that I've become close with
because of the intensity of a homicide investigation.
Quite often I've been asked by people, you know,
they might say, how do you keep going on the investigation for 20 years?
I look to the families of the victim and say they're the ones that drive me
and push me forward.
So it felt to me, and this might, I'll just try to explain this in the best way.
It made me feel good about myself in that,
other aspects of my life mightn't be perfect,
but I'm doing good work every day I come to work.
And yeah, you and I have spoken about it, relationships.
I've had a couple of marriages, broken relationships.
They're all the collateral damage, I think.
But where I hid from all the chaos that was going in my private life
was just to throw myself into work.
And yeah, I can remember being at Christmas Day going in the office
because I didn't want to face the chaos that was my life at the time.
So that's funny though, because sometimes we make ourselves busy.
It's a bit of an avoidance habit, avoiding what it is I don't want to confront
or what I'm not enjoying.
And when you're on a murder case, it's easy to justify that.
You can say, look, I've got a murder I've got to investigate.
You can hide behind it.
And I'm mindful of that.
And I think there's been occasions where I've...
Yeah, there is times when I think, look,
okay, everything else is falling apart, but just keep focusing on the job you got.
I would joke, but I'm not joking.
It's the reality.
When my relationships weren't in a good place, it was a bad time for the crooks
because I had more time to concentrate on doing police work.
Not the most healthiest way to live your life,
but I think at least I was aware of it.
I knew what I was doing and had control of it.
And would you have said then, and hopefully now,
but irrespective of maybe it had a negative effect on you
in terms of what other things you're doing, relationships, et cetera,
would you say that ultimately, though, your purpose was a good purpose nonetheless?
Like, I am trying to catch a killer for this family who have suffered the death
in their family of what this killer or this perpetrator might have done.
Is that the good purpose?
Yeah, and that makes me feel like I'm doing some good.
I'm doing something worthwhile.
That was what I was getting back.
That was what I was getting back from the hours that I put in on the job and working hard.
And, you know, people would say it's an obsession,
but if you put your hand up to run murder investigations, you should be obsessed.
And if you're going to do it and treat it like a nine to five,
get out of there and let someone that's prepared to make the sacrifices.
We're not mucking around.
When someone's been killed, we need to find out who killed that person.
And it's as real as real can get.
It's funny, you know, when both you and I know a number of commissioners,
a number of whom I was doing the fighting for,
and for many years, I've been doing the fighting for them.
And a lot of them I get to meet and they'd say, why are you the ambassador?
And I used to get asked this, why are you the ambassador for New South Wales Police Boxing
and legacy, police legacy?
And I want to ask you this question.
My response, generally speaking, was that police,
the reward for risk for cops is not a fair equation
relative to what everybody else in the country does.
It's the amount of money you get paid.
And the accolades you get and the sense of responsibility you get
from the risk you take every single day, private life risk,
the risk you take in relation to your families, you could get shot,
anything could happen.
The reward risk formula is wrong.
Therefore, I feel as a citizen that I should be giving something back to the police.
And I've got mates in there, I've got family who are coppers, et cetera.
Why do police take this?
Why do police take this unfair reward versus risk transaction?
I think, and let me clarify, because with the police, there are some police that, yeah,
I think they're taking this all for a ride.
Oh, there are definitely some taking this.
Yeah, and like with those, and that's where I get, you know,
if you say police, we deserve more money and that, yeah,
a large percentage of police deserve more money because they actually live
and breathe the job.
But it's a public service.
And I learnt, I always sort of joked about, oh,
it's a public service.
It's a public service mentality and put public servants down.
That was until I had a conversation with Margaret Caneen,
a senior Crown prosecutor, now a defence barrister.
And I asked Margaret, why are you working for the DPP when if you went to private,
you'd earn three times as much and blah, blah, blah.
She said, I hear and I enjoy serving the public.
And that sort of, that flipped my thinking to a degree,
that there is a noble thing in being a public servant and serving the public.
And I think most police,
I don't know if you've heard of it, but there is a noble thing in being a public servant and serving the public.
And I think most police,
I don't know if you've heard of it, but there is a noble thing in being a public servant and serving the public.
But the ones that become good at it know that they're doing some good every day they turn up for work.
Because it is a very rewarding job.
Like 34 years in the cops, I can't recall having a day off sick in that 34 years.
And I loved every day I came to work.
So, yeah, it's got a lot going for it.
There's benefits to it.
Gary, do you think there's, it's a tough question,
but do you think there's a lot of difference between the character of a policeman versus a criminal?
Apart from the outcomes.
I mean, like criminals are doing something that's socially unacceptable.
But do you think there's much different between the characters?
You know, the cop's just doing his best.
The criminal's just doing his best.
It might be not socially acceptable, but is there much difference?
Look, the career criminals, I can sit down and have a conversation with them.
And I've been fortunate since I've left the police.
I've had a lot of people that I've become close to that were in their day notorious criminals.
We do have a commonality between us.
And they understand where I'm coming from.
I understand where they're coming from.
I respect crooks.
And obviously there's certain crimes that, you know, you wouldn't spit on the person that's done the crime.
There's some that are unacceptable.
But I respect the way that they go about their business.
It doesn't mean I agree with them.
I respect that some of them, some of the hard crooks have a moral code that they stick to.
And I respect people that are not hypocritical in saying they do one thing but do the other.
Yeah, I think there's definitely, definitely a connection between the cops and the crooks.
And quite often it's just a sliding door moment.
Why has this person turned into a crook and why has that person turned into a cop?
And then they meet again.
So I've had some fun catch-ups with people that I was chasing throughout my career, post-career.
It's funny, I don't know if you've ever come across this guy.
You might be too young.
How old are you now in your 50s?
Well, you might know this guy.
There's a very well-known criminal barrister, a guy called Patrick Costello.
Patrick Costello was around in the Chris Murphy days.
Him and Chris used to sort of, you know, and they're both defence lawyers.
But usually in those days at the lower courts, because they were sort of making, I'm going
back in the 70s and 80s.
Making a name for themselves.
And yeah, they were.
And I used to always say about, Pat passed away unfortunately, but I used to say about
Patrick Costello, if Pat hadn't have been a great barrister, he would have been a great
And I didn't see, and he represented a lot of crooks in those days.
And some of whom were mates of mine, blokes I grew up with.
And I, and I, in those days, we briefed me a few times when I was at the law firm.
So, and I, so I got to know him very well, very, very well.
In fact, he and I had his wife and her best friend, she was my girlfriend and, you know,
he's married to this girl and we, so we used to hang out together.
But I used to always say to myself, Pat was like just within a whisker of not being a
And there wasn't that much difference between the, the, the barrister or the law.
What is an officer of the court, which is what the coppers are, effectively you're an
officer of the government versus the criminal.
And, and the sort of characteristics I'm talking about were, they were smart, they were
extraordinary, extraordinarily resilient.
He was, they are.
They are incredibly creative in the ways they keep ahead of the law, the crooks, and the
law is incredibly creative in the way they try to catch the crooks.
They, they all have big personalities, not all of them, but a lot of them have big personalities.
Um, and then they have hierarchies, there's politics within the cops, there's a lot of
politics, as you know, very well, very well.
Um, but there's politics within the, the, the criminal environment too, the, the criminal
And is that something that sort of when you decided to do your podcast, I Catch Killers,
is that something that became bleedingly even more obvious to you than ever in the past?
I, I think if, when I started the I Catch Killers podcast, it was,
the focus was going to be cops talking about, uh, cases they've done.
That's got a, uh, you, you can only do that for so much, so often.
Um, and I thought, well, if I want to take people in the world of crime, the world of
crime that I really know and understand, it's 360 degrees.
And so I started bringing in some, uh, some crooks that I've dealt with before and bikies
and all sorts of things, plus the witnesses.
So people listening to the podcast would get an understanding of what this whole world
was about, not just the one dimensional good guys, bad guys.
And you hear the stories of some of the, uh, some of the bad guys, their upbringing or
things that happened in their life.
I'd be a bad guy if that happened to me.
So I take out the judgment of it.
But, uh, yeah, I, I think it to explore and understand the world of crime as I understood
it, because it's a murky world, it's a dark world, but you find some light in that darkness
with some of the people.
Definitely not simple.
It's definitely not a simple world either.
So we're both mates at Russell Manza.
Um, Russell's been shining a light on, um, trauma.
That a lot of criminals have suffered.
Like lifetime criminals.
Have suffered when they've been younger men.
Um, at the hands of institutional institutions.
So they have had, either suffered institutional sexual abuse or institutional violence or
Um, at a younger age, I'm talking, you know, from teenagers up into, uh, you know, incarceration
and then a lot of these guys, they just get incarcerated, they get out, then they go back
and commit the same crimes.
And there's a commonality.
There's a common denominator.
With a lot of the people he talks about, including himself, by the way.
Um, do you think now that you're out of the cops, do you think to yourself sometimes,
wow, these guys are guilty of the crime, but they're not really guilty societally
because to some extent society's a bit responsible for what they, what's happened?
I, I, I do have that view now, Mark, because I've been out of the cops for three, going
on, on four years.
When I was in the cops, I, I didn't really have time to think the why or how I'd be given
I'd work the case, try and find the person responsible for the crime, put them before
the courts and then move on to the next one.
So I didn't, if I, yeah, I think Russell was robbing banks when I was in the armed holdup
squad around our area.
So I was probably looking for Russell at, at certain times.
But I wasn't concerned about, uh, yeah, what their upbringing was at the time.
I had to, my role was to find out who was being committing these crimes.
Since I've stepped away from the cops, I've got a bit more clear air and I can look at
Why, why did Russell turn out that way?
That's pretty shit.
I can understand why he's angry or was an angry young man.
Well, like you say, it was morgues.
It's the same, same deal.
Like, it wasn't sexual abuse, but it's still the same deal.
Oh, Jeffrey, like his, his story, Jeffrey Morgan, uh, grew up, uh, an indigenous man
grew up around Redfern and, uh, talking about, you know, when he got home, um, there'd be
nine people trying to share one mattress and the best you could hope for was getting your
head on the mattress and, and stuff like that.
So yeah, they've all come from, uh, yeah, where they haven't got that nurture.
Well, I won't say they haven't got the nurturing because there were still people that loved
them, but things happened in their life that, uh, took their, uh, life in a certain path.
But how, how, when you're in the police and it might, this may be a character trait of
yours, but how were you able to compartmentalize and just say, hang on now, I'm a cop.
I've got a, my job is my transaction at the moment is I've got to catch that particular,
that murder or that robber, whatever the case, but thief, I'm going to catch that individual
and I've got to, I've got to get, and I've got to put, get enough evidence, put it before
The courts can prosecute the particular individual that's been charged.
How were you able to compartmentalize that yourself away from not thinking about the
things that you've been more, uh, closer to in the last three, four years since you've
been out of the cops?
Did you purposely compartmentalize or there's just something naturally happens for all police?
I, I let it, let it drift and drift into each part.
And one thing, and I think this helped me in my career as, as a detective and all the
The, the ones that I looked up to and the ones that I respect and the ones that are
still doing the good work now, they have this, uh, empathy.
What makes a good detective?
I say empathy is right up there.
And I've heard all these great detectives drop the same, same thing.
What's that about?
Is that sometimes you get confessions from people or you get information from people
because you do genuinely care.
It's not transactional.
I would get information from people, phone me anytime and my phone would phone anytime.
I'd run informants.
Mate, I will always have my phone on me.
You call me anytime.
They might call me at two o'clock every, every night for a week.
Who, who knows, but I'd take, take the calls.
So I think you've got to, uh, the way that you get through that.
So you don't have to good guys, bad guys, because sometimes they've overlapped, but
you try to understand where they're all coming from.
And that helped, well, it helped me in my policing.
And that was what I was shown by, uh, people I looked up to.
So being in a position where you can take a call at any time or preparedness to take
a call at any time.
In other words, access.
That would eat into your private life big time.
Oh, I, I've just, uh, I've just, um, um, you make me think of how many fights I've had
about, can't you turn the phone off?
In different, different relationships.
And I remember getting so many phone calls one night, just literally sitting up that
it was pointless to go to bed because I'm going to get called.
I'm going to get called.
But, you know, as I said, the, the type of work I was doing in, in the policing, it was
It was so, you've got to embrace it.
You've got to be ready, ready for it.
There's little things.
I was at home one night, Sunday night, it was a, a phone call at 10 o'clock and it was
a lady who was a victim of a sexual assault something 15 or 17 years before.
And so 10 o'clock, I hadn't spoken to her for 15 years.
And she phoned up and, uh, I, I woke up, it was about 10 o'clock or, or whatever.
I woke up Sunday night and answered the call and she goes, oh, you probably don't know
And she mentioned the name.
I go, yeah, of course I do.
And the thing that, that she needed some advice on something.
I think there was an issue that had occurred.
The fact that I still remembered who she was and cared enough to sit up and talk.
I, I, yeah, I get reward in different ways in that it was just a good thing.
It made me feel like I'm doing the right thing, but I didn't realize how much you were on
call or how much you were a slave to your job until I left.
And for the first six months I'm looking around thinking, why isn't anyone phoning me?
Why isn't this happening?
Um, you don't really realize how deep you've dived into that, uh, that.
Hole until you step away from it.
I, I, I think it is Mark.
It's, it's addictive and it's competitive and yeah, you, you are a hunter in effect
when you're, uh, you're trying to solve, solve a crime, you know, the drive, you, you understand
that you, I'm sure you channel that energy in, in different, different areas, but it's
almost like a personal challenge.
It's confronts and okay, let's see what, what happens here.
So, but it can confront other people.
So colleagues can say.
Like, I don't like him because he's trying too hard.
I mean, I mean the, the police service is a huge, huge, massive business.
Like it's a big, big business.
And you know, sitting at the top of that, you have commissioners and you have deputies
and you have ACs underneath them and then there's a massive hierarchy.
It's a ridiculously big hierarchy and it, and the politics can nearly divide the police
force down the middle.
The politics are just disgraceful, the politics.
Like down the middle.
It's like any massive, big organization.
And especially when, probably particularly these days when everybody's got a say.
And you have to listen to everybody.
I mean, like culturally we are, this happens in business too, but like culturally you have
to listen to what everybody's position is and everybody now knows that and everybody
will put their position.
Do you have any regrets having left the cops?
I, look, I, I, I wouldn't want to be in there now.
I, I wouldn't trust being in the police for what happened to me and, you know, we can
discuss that or whatever I was charged with recording conversations.
I wouldn't trust an organization that turned on me the, the way that they did and people
turned on me for personal vendetta or personal reasons.
Yeah, I've been called a polarizing person in the cops.
I find it funny still to this day.
People talk about, oh yeah, I know Gary Jubel and I did this, I did that with him or I told
him to pull his head in and all that.
These are people I haven't even met.
So they're, they're making stories up, up around me and I, I challenge anyone to come
and speak to me face to face and say what they've got to say.
I really, when I say I was surprised, I had some, the people that I respect, senior, senior
police, Nick Kaldos, I'll mention his name, I don't think he'd be concerned.
He spoke to me prior to anything blowing up about me and he said, just be careful Jubes,
you, you've got a high profile in this organization and they'll try to take you down at some stage.
It was almost like.
Predicting the future because it happened very much that way.
He was a deputy at the time.
And I, I got a lot of respect for him.
He, he was one of the good bosses and just what happened to me without going into the
details, there were people that were setting personal agendas.
I don't know why.
I just turned up and did my job at work and yeah, whether they felt threatened by that,
whether they felt threatened by the informal power balance I had because people recognize
me as a homicide detective and I've seen that happen to others.
I was in New South Wales Police and it hit the media and it was fed to the media by New
South Wales Police, just shamefully, just this type of information that was fed to the
Ron Idles, who's a well-known ex-homicide detective from Victoria and Charlie Bozzina,
also another homicide, high profile homicide detective from Victoria.
I hadn't worked with them.
We knew of each other, their work that they've done.
They both reached out to me and told me, look, keep your head up.
This is what happened to us.
They both went through the same type of thing and it's just an organization, I think, with
the public service or the police, they don't like anyone sticking their head above the
If you stick your head above the group, people want to pull you down and I think that's part
I mean, I don't understand.
I mean, even if you do stick your head up, even if you have a little bit of ego, I mean,
I don't know if that's a bad thing.
I mean, unless it sort of gets in the way of judgment perhaps.
And that'll always end up being the accusation that people make, his ego got in the way of
And like you're relaying and I hear that and I laugh at them as I would laugh at them to
their face if they said it to me.
I've heard those things, his ego.
Oh, that's right.
I worked hard and went on some tough jobs.
Some of the jobs I worked on were high profile.
That wasn't me just picking jobs because I wanted the profile.
That was me doing the work.
And I know there was people that were saying, oh, look, he's sticking his head up too high.
Why are the media speaking to him?
Oh, he loves the media.
They were speaking to me because I was doing the hard yards, doing the work and running
And that's what people didn't get.
And it gets me, I won't say angry, although I'm not really hiding it.
It does get me a little bit angry that people say that.
My status in the cops changed, I think, or the people started to have opinions before
they didn't know who I was or unless I worked with them.
When the Underbelly TV series came out, Underbelly Badness.
The actual original Underbelly.
Yeah, in that whole series.
And so they built a series on Underbelly Badness and Made of Yours, Made of Mine, Matt Nabel
And that's when I was in the cops.
And from that time, I felt like I had a bit of a target on my back.
Now, I didn't go to Channel 9 or whoever was screaming, go, hey, put me on Underbelly.
They came to senior police.
And senior police said, well, this is the toughest job running at the moment.
It was the job, the murder of Terry Falconer.
And so then they did the series on that.
And they portrayed me in the private life, professional life, and all that.
I know there was a shift after that because public servant stuck their head up.
I hate saying that, Mark, because I sound like a wanker if I go, oh, they're just jealous.
I really hold back on that.
I'm just saying it factually, once you've had that recognition.
And it worked for me.
It worked for my favor.
It worked against me.
I'd get in the witness box.
I know some barristers would go, oh, that's it, Underbelly dude.
Let's carve him up in the witness box so they go a little bit harder and build their reputation that way.
But it also helped in that the profile that I had, if you were a crook or a suspect,
if I go knock on the door, they're going to go, oh, shit, it's him.
And I would use that.
I would use that.
But, yeah, I know I polarize people in the cops.
Some people don't like me because I expected them to work on the street.
I'm a strike force and I make no apologies for that.
Like if they're not going to work, I'm going to call them out on it.
Other people, even if they didn't like me personally, I'm sure they respected the work that I did.
If you didn't call it jealousy, would you just put it down to human nature?
Like human nature.
People, some will follow someone who's got a profile who's been seen as being successful through the media,
for example, and there will be some who won't follow.
You can call it polarizing because basically polarizing means,
you just split the joint down the middle.
Whenever you have a brand and, you know, Jubilant had a brand when he was in the police force,
you're going to get some people who like it and some people who don't like it.
To me, it's just human nature of the organization, human nature of the total organization,
especially when it's a big organization.
And I would add, and this is, again, just a theory, with policing because I wonder
because it happens to so many police.
So, you know, I'm not the first, I'm not the last.
I'll get a profile and get taken down or bought.
This is my theory, Mark, and I haven't spoken to a psychologist about it,
so it's not based on anything.
It's just a theory floating around in my head.
You join the police, you get a badge, you get a gun, you get authority.
You're the policeman.
You walk out on the street.
You've got power.
People, even in your social circle, they'll go, oh, that's a cop.
So your status is elevated above, yeah, I'm saying above the society that you've got power.
You've got the power to pull your gun and kill someone.
You have to in the right sense.
Yeah, or charge them.
Take away their liberty.
There's a lot of power that goes there and there's respect that goes there.
Then you put us all in there together.
And so we've got an office, open plan office of 60 or 70 people around there.
Well, no one's looking at us special for being a cop because we're all cops,
so we cancel each other out.
But then in that group of 60 or 70 people, one or two of those people rise above.
The people left there are trying to drag them down because they're used to having the authority,
yeah, I'm the cop.
And when you're in that organisation, you stick your head up a little bit higher,
well, let's drag him down or drag her down because it makes the rest of us look poor.
Yeah, it's a really interesting analytic or analysis of how the police force works.
I mean, I've been watching it for a long, long time.
I've seen lots of commissioners come and go and I've seen lots of blokes
and may end up being the case with our current commissioner,
but it gets stamped pretty hard.
Well, deservingly.
Yeah, undeservingly and also people don't forget what happened on the way up.
So if anything gets a bit wobbly to whoever's up there, you know,
who's got their profile up there, if there's anything wobbly on the way up,
it tends to get brought up as it gets thrown back at them.
Like, I'll square up with him or her.
And I think you understand the police with the police that you know.
There's little cliques, little groups and all that.
If I look back at my career, that's probably, I won't say a mistake,
it's just the way I roll, but I didn't have a clique.
I wasn't beholding.
So you can't be isolated.
I wasn't beholding to anyone or, you know, I just did my own thing and got to,
I got to the rank of, you know, a commissioned officer, chief inspector.
I was happy there.
Some people are thinking, why didn't he want to climb higher?
I like the work at that level.
I like to be involved in the investigations.
That's what I wanted.
And that confused people.
They're thinking, what's he doing?
What's this all about?
And I never really, you know, safeguarded myself by being in little cliques.
So people were beholding to me and vice versa.
I just, yeah, was on my own.
So when you left, you probably were happy.
When you left, you probably got a bit of shock because I remember when it happened
and it looked a bit untidy.
How did you feel?
Like your whole life's commitment and or purpose was just taken away
from you in really short notice.
What was the feeling?
And when you talk short notice, just quickly to put it in perspective,
it was on a Tuesday that professional standards turned up,
executed search warrants.
I was taken upstairs, had my gun taken off me, my phone's taken off me,
blah, blah, blah.
Left, finished in the building about six o'clock and just had nothing
And it was just totally, totally rocked me.
The weekend before that, so we're talking the Tuesday,
the weekend before that, two police officers were shot up near,
I was flown up there to oversee that investigation.
I come back from there.
They were investigating a driving incident or something.
No, this was a different one.
A person with firearms that they went to a domestic situation.
Two police officers shot the offender, shot himself.
So I oversee that.
Then I come back to Sydney and then there's a murder up at Newcastle.
I go up to Newcastle, oversee the murder investigation up there,
And then Tuesday afternoon from that was my life, as in, yeah, I'll go,
do this, do that, to you're out, out of the cops.
Suspended or finished?
No, I wasn't suspended.
And they could say whatever they want.
There was no way they could suspend me.
It was so ridiculous what the charges were.
They said to me and a senior police officer at State Crime said,
oh, Gary, you'll probably go off sick now and just go off sick.
And I said, I haven't had a sick day in 34 years.
I'm not going off sick.
I put my suit on.
I turned up the next day.
And they wouldn't let me in the homicide office,
an office that I've been for 20 years.
I got shooed out of there like it was some Hannibal Lecter
had just walked into the homicide office.
Then they put me in a room on Level 9, which is where all the bosses sit.
And when I say a room, it was just like a cupboard space
with a glass partition.
And that's where I sat for a couple of months before I just said,
this is ridiculous.
I turned up every day and just sat there.
They took me off all the investigations.
I wasn't allowed to work on any of the investigations
I was running at the time.
And I just sat there.
And I know people were being told, people that were close to me saying,
they're trying to provoke you to do something stupid, snap or whatever.
So I sat there playing whale and meditation music just to annoy the fuck
out of them as they walked past.
And like I'm like a caged lion, but they'd walk past
and I'd just be sitting there playing meditation music.
And it almost sent me insane.
But it was my way.
It was my way of sort of giving back.
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How did that come about?
Well, it's funny how life turns out.
I've had, when I was in the police,
people had made approaches to me about,
if you leave the cops, you can come into the media.
quite often, people would suggest that.
I wasn't going to leave the cops.
That was my passion.
When this incident happened, I caught up with someone,
because I worked with News Corp and 60 Minutes.
And just a friend of mine, a producer from 60 Minutes,
said, you want to catch up for a drink?
And she said, how's your week?
And I've gone, how's my fucking week?
Because it hadn't hit the media at that stage.
And she's gone, unbelievable.
But anyway, that's good.
Because the reason I met you is,
I wanted to see if you'd be interested in doing something with 60 Minutes.
And then Claire Harvey at News Corp,
I had a meeting with her and she spoke about what we could do.
And so I had quite a few offers.
And I had other people reaching out to do security work,
that type of thing.
So I wasn't short of options.
But then the News Corp one suited me
and I went with News Corp.
And so I went with News Corp.
And I got signed to do, write articles and do podcasts.
Why are people so, crime, sex, crime, they're the two big ones.
Like in terms of podcasts especially.
Why are people so obsessed?
Like audiences I'm talking about.
The sex or the crime?
I don't want you to talk about sex.
I'm not going to explain to you why they're obsessed about sex.
Okay, let's talk about crime then.
Okay, we'll talk about crime.
I think it's a world that they don't get to see.
That's part of the reason I joined the cops.
I wanted to see what was behind that police tape.
That's why I became,
the detective, I'd turn up at a crime scene
and I'd see the detectives walk in there.
That's why I wanted to find out what's going on.
I think we've all got a fascination for crime.
We all think that we're detectives in our own right,
that show us the clues, we'll explain what's happened.
And it's just a world that we don't get to see.
And it's a world that's, you know,
some people might have a mundane life or just a day-to-day.
It takes us out of that day-to-day living
and, you know, gets the adrenaline running.
And I think that's what makes people curious.
Your show started off interviewing,
interviewing who?
What type of people?
Cops that I'd worked with.
My first, very first podcast was with Jason Evers.
He'd been my partner in homicide for 10 years.
He was out of the cops.
And we, Claire's idea, why don't we go to a pub,
we'll have it like two blokes just talking,
the audience will be a fly on the wall.
And that was the first season.
So I got a lot of cops doing that.
That was good, but I had to stop because we were drinking,
because I'd catch up with some old cops.
We'd start recording,
we'd start recording in the pub at about 8 o'clock
and a beer to make it look realistic and we'd have a beer
and then you'd finish that then and have lunchtime.
Oh, let's have a beer now.
And I just, I did one season of that and said no more,
no more alcohol, let's move to a studio.
And then we looked at, there was one in the first season,
Jaron Badgen, an Aboriginal lady, grew up on the block.
Bumped into her when I was walking through the city,
kicking stones and she'd just left the police,
had a falling out with the police.
And I said, how about you come on the podcast?
Because she joined the cops because she grew up in the block in Redfern
and didn't want her family treated the way she was treated
when she was growing up in the block.
Really interesting person, really interesting perspective.
I said, come on the podcast.
She's going, I can't, you've got all these super cops,
all these high profile detectives.
I said, trust me, come on.
And we did her podcast and people just, she's saying to this day,
people are still contacting her about it,
standing, her perspective being an Aboriginal lady in the police
and growing up on the block.
And that sort of got me to thinking I can do more with the podcast
and then we've sort of branched out and had a whole range of people.
Try to keep the theme of crime running through because mostly
there is a connection with the crime but occasionally we just break out
because I think if we just do crime all the time, it's too dark.
Like, okay, I'll get a bloke on that murdered three people.
Okay, next season we've got someone that's murdered five people.
Where does it end?
So I'm just trying to, you know, give it some life
in letting people tell their stories.
What is, you're now, you've gone from the culture,
you used to get paid a wage every week, now running your own business,
a podcast business and other things you do that sort of surround
the broadcasting industry.
What have you learned about that part of your life relative
to what it used to be like when you used to get a payback
at every month or every week or whatever it was?
I think people...
I think people that do get a pay packet each week should be thankful
that they get a pay packet so public servants or, you know,
long-term secure job because it certainly, it takes the pressure off
and you can concentrate on your work knowing you're going to get paid.
When, like I've set up a company and I run it as a company
and I had to learn all about tax and all stuff completely foreign to me
because I didn't have to know about it.
You know, I'm on a policeman's wage.
There wasn't much issue on tax.
Now we're doing funds and different things.
I've really had to learn.
When I learn, I've got an accountant that helps me through and sets things up.
But that in itself, like at the level when I left as a cop,
I was a detective chief inspector.
I had a team under me.
If I wanted something done, could you do this?
Could you do that?
All of a sudden it became me running a business.
Where's my stationery?
You know, simple things like that.
Could you print it?
We haven't got a printer.
So I had to set up an office.
I had to, you know, start to think a little bit differently.
I've got to say I'm enjoying it and I give this advice to people too.
Working for yourself is very invigorating and it got to the point
I was so sort of in the cop mode, like I'd be asked to do a talk
or asked to come on your podcast.
I'd have to do a report and then a return report, report.
Now I can just make my own decisions, work when I want to work
and I'm fortunate that the work's there for me.
I understand I'd probably look at it a little bit differently
if I didn't have the work, but I'm enjoying it and I'm enjoying,
being rewarded for working hard because sometimes in the police
they want to pull you down if you have some success.
I was surprised with the first season of the podcast,
people coming up to me and saying, well done, that's great.
You know, it's going really well.
It's charting well, all that sort of stuff.
And I'm sort of, where's the punchline?
Because you wouldn't get that in the cops.
The cops never gave you a pat on the back for doing anything.
So what's your output now in terms of iCatchKiller?
So it's one podcast a week?
One podcast a week.
What other things are you doing now?
I do a podcast series like in Predatory,
which is looking at child sexual abuse,
Breaking Badness when I went in the prisons.
Can we talk about that?
This was a really interesting experience and this was just last year
that Corrective Services got in contact with me and said,
would you be interested in doing a podcast
at the Macquarie Correctional Centre up at Wellington?
I said, yeah, in what form?
Well, we're trying something a little bit different in the prison.
It's a maximum security prison.
We'll give you full access to the prison and you go wherever you want,
blah, blah, blah, have a look around and you report on what you see
in a podcast form.
Like a series, 10 episodes?
I think we have seven episodes.
And so I went into this maximum security prison
and you could imagine how popular I am.
And before I went in, you're going through the gates
and the metal detectors and all that.
And I said to Corrective Services, how are they going to react to me in there?
And they've gone, we've got no idea.
I'm thinking, oh, Jesus, what's going to happen here?
So I've walked in and, yeah, the reaction was as you would expect the reaction.
People would just snarl at me.
People would make, you know, have a go at me
or other people would just ignore me.
And gradually, and it was almost caused all this drama in the prison.
Well, if he's in here, we're not doing this,
we're not doing that type situation.
And it got to the point where I sat down with some of the power brokers
In the criminals, the inmates, and explained what I was doing there.
I said, look, what they're doing here at Macquarie Centre
is changing the dynamics of, you know, the way traditionally people are in prison
in that they're giving them reward, they're giving them responsibilities,
they're giving them freedom, they're living more like they would
on the outside in there.
And I said, if you blokes say this is good, no one's going to listen to you
because you're the bad guys and people don't care.
They think you should be breaking rocks and eating bread and water.
If I, as an ex-cop, that you don't like, you know, I understand you don't like me
for the position I hold.
If I'm saying it works, maybe that carries a little bit more weight.
It gives you credit.
Yeah, it gives it credibility.
And on that basis, they let me walk around without too many dramas.
And when you say power brokers, how do you identify them
or does the corrected services identify them for you
and then arrange a meeting?
How does that work?
I can look around and pretty much pick out who's got the power, who hasn't.
You mean by reputation or just by looking?
Reputation and look and all that.
And, yeah, some of the younger prisoners, they would arc up with me
because they want to make a name for themselves.
Some of the more seasoned prisoners, they'd just turn their back on me
That was their statement.
Others would be bold enough because I wouldn't shake hands
unless it was offered to me because that can cause dramas.
And then I know the ones that are prepared to come up
They're making the statement, well, they don't give a stuff
what other people think.
Yeah, I'm in control of the situation here.
So it was interesting.
There was some funny comments and some funny moments.
And I had, we were at Wellington Prison, like there's Macquarie Correctional Centre
and Wellington's a more traditional prison, both maximum security prisons.
And I'm walking around and someone's yelling, well, what are they going to do to me?
And it wasn't very pleasant.
But they're funny.
They're funny in the way that they're saying it.
And they're sort of mob starting to form around me.
And I had, I got them talking and we started to talk.
And I said to them, yeah, okay, guys, here I'm a platform to, yeah,
what do you need in prison?
And I'm being genuine like that.
And some smartass yells out, how about a set of fucking keys would do?
But that type of humour.
So it was an experience, Mark.
It was an experience that I never thought I'd get.
And I enjoyed it.
It was, you know, a little bit tense at times.
I was always, you know, I didn't want to walk around with a swagger that, yeah,
everything's cool because that would have been disrespectful to them.
I'm in their environment.
So I treated them with the respect.
But, yeah, I walked into the factory area where they're working on machines.
And I could see two blokes look at me, point, and then another group come and form.
And I think, oh, shit, what do I do here?
I thought, fuck it, I'll just go over.
Gary Jubelin, you know who I am.
And they're all standing right around me.
Another group that were there when I was speaking to a group of them, they made the point, because
I was saying, is it working here in the prison in this Macquarie Correctional Centre?
And they made the point, well, do you really think you'd get out of here if you were in
Because they're all sitting around me.
And I said, in another prison, I wouldn't be sitting in the centre of the circle.
So stuff like that.
But all jokes aside, I really think they're on to something.
And that's something I'm really proud of.
Proud of the fact that I can help, in some way, reduce crime by reducing recidivism and
getting people so they've been in jail that they can come out and be a productive member
So that's sort of rocking my boat, doing that type of stuff.
Only yesterday, I was being invited to Parliament about a restorative justice system.
And yeah, it's good that I'm doing things that I think are worthwhile.
Do you think the system's changing then?
Because I often wonder whether or not prison's actually...
the right answer for a lot of criminals.
In fact, I think it makes them worse sometimes.
Sometimes you have to...
there are some prisoners, you just...
there's some people who just must be imprisoned.
Like they're just a total danger to society and to themselves for that matter.
But largely, I don't know if prison really works in terms of rehabilitating people or
getting people ready to rejoin society when they come out.
Do you think there's now something evolving so much so that...
from Parliament, which is where it's got to start, Parliament and the public service
and all those people who administer these things are starting to think, well, maybe
there's a better way of doing this sort of stuff?
And I think if it's not working, because we've got a high rate of recidivism, people go in
jail, they come out and end up back in jail, a ridiculously high rate.
And I haven't got the figures in my head.
But if we can break that cycle, everyone benefits.
From a fiscal point of view, it costs money to have people housed in prisons.
If we can integrate them back into society, I think it's a much better...
And Ken Maslow, his son was murdered, shot in the back of the head with a shotgun, 19-year-old
kid working in a pizza hut.
This happened about 20 years ago, and he wanted the world...
he wanted a crackdown on crime, mandatory sentencing, all that stuff.
I had him on the podcast.
I got him on the podcast on that Breaking Badness podcast, said, okay, from a victim's
point of view, he made the point that if you reduce crime, you reduce victims.
If we can make the prison system better, that the people come out better than when
they went in, that's a benefit to everyone.
One of the things Gary Jubelin is doing, so you did Breaking Badness, they're like
your special episode series, and you did that for the Correctional Services, Department
of Correctional Services.
You've got your own show.
I soon recall you are a host of a, let's call it a road show, with a mafia dude.
A year or so ago.
What's that about?
It was put to me after, when I'm out of the cops, like doing the podcast, I've written
two books, and it was put to me about doing a live tour.
And what do you mean do a live tour?
A live stage show.
And I've gone, look, no, I'm happy where I am.
And they came back to me, the promoters came back to me and said, look, what if you did
it with your mate, Rob Carlton?
Rob Carlton's a good mate of mine.
He's been an actor.
He's played Kerry Packer.
He's played Kerry Packer, a Logie Award winning actor, and just a fun bloke and a good mate.
And I've gone, okay, let's do this tour.
So we're playing all the capital cities around the country.
COVID hit or delayed, and we had to put it off, put it off.
It was put off twice.
And I was quite glad the second time, because I'm thinking, why am I putting so much pressure
A live show, people paying money to come and see me entertain them.
I'm a cop or ex-cop, and I'm struggling in my new world.
So the planets aligned, and the theatres were opened up again.
So I had about two weeks before I'm playing at Inmore Theatre, sold out Inmore Theatre
on a Saturday night.
And I've gone, Rob, so what are we going to do?
And are we going to sit down, Q&As?
He said, no, stupid.
This is a theatre.
We're going to take the audience on a journey.
And I've gone, fuck.
Where do we go here?
And we put together a show that I'm very proud of.
It's stuff that people wouldn't expect.
It's, you know, I'm Rob.
When I say I'm role-playing, I'm playing myself.
And Rob pointed that out.
It can't be that hard.
You're playing yourself.
He would play a crook in certain parts.
And it was really theatre.
Theatre, it had laughter.
It had everything.
And we toured around the country with it.
I was like a sponge learning from Rob.
Like, he just knows how to hold the stage and all that.
So it was a great experience.
And then on the back of that, Michael Francis was a mafia captain in the mafia.
One of the most powerful mafia figures in the world.
In his heyday in the U.S., he was doing the tour and he asked me to host his tour.
So I'm doing a few of these live shows.
I've learnt a lot.
Like, I was so nervous the first night at Enmore Theatre.
And Nick Fortham is my manager.
And Nick said, mate, you know Nick.
And he's going, it'll be right.
Audience will love it.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And that's the last words he says to me before we're ready to roll.
Rob's in the room next door.
We're all doing sound practising.
I'm shadowboxing.
I'm just trying to dump all this adrenaline to, you know, I'm ready to walk out on stage.
And then at the end of the show, standing ovation.
And Nick came up to me and said, Jesus, mate, I was a bit worried.
I thought we threw you in the deep end.
Thanks for telling me.
Mark, look, I really enjoyed it.
I like, you know, at different stages in your life, it's good to have a challenge.
And that was challenging.
And I learnt a lot about myself.
I learnt a lot about, you know, working in the audience and on the stage.
And it's given me the confidence to do a lot of other things.
I think it's helped in a lot of aspects.
And what have you, and I just want to finish off on this one.
But given that you're doing a whole lot of new things or you've done a whole lot of new things for your life
in the last four years, you've experienced a whole lot of things you never thought you'd experience before.
As you said, you're effectively being performer in terms of live theatre, live, a live performer,
which is pretty tough.
Then you do your podcast, you're a broadcaster.
You're obviously trying to attract sponsorships so you can, you know, so you can pay the bills.
You've got to pay the bills.
You've got to pay yourself for that matter.
What is it that, given all these new experiences, all these new things you're doing,
what is it that Gary Jubilant has not let go of?
What things do you keep doing to keep your feet on the ground?
As in where I am now, I self-critique in everything I do.
Like I always think, okay, that was good, but could it be a little bit better?
And I hope I ease up on myself to a degree.
But I, as good as, I'm as good as my last podcast, I'm as good as my last TV interview.
Could have I done that better?
That type of thing.
That keeps me grounded.
I've got, I've got mates, old mates that kept me grounded when I was a cop.
And I think that's why I survived policing so long, because I didn't hang out with cops.
I had my mates that, you know, bring me back to reality.
I, yeah, I have, have friends that'll go watch the stage show.
And then I'll catch up with them after and they'll be making fun of me and just, you
know, keep, keeping it real, taking the piss out of me a little bit.
I think that helps.
I've got more time now to spend with my children and my family, which also helps me.
I just, yeah, I, you mentioned I train with Johnny Lewis.
There's a good little group that we get together every morning and characters from all different
So I've got that social thing because that's, that's what I lost when I left, left the cops.
Like my day was, I'd be.
Speaking to 20, 30 people each day.
And then that was taken away from me.
Even when I'm doing the podcast stuff, I've got my office set up at home.
But quite often, if I haven't got a guest or whatever, I've just got to motivate myself
And yeah, sometimes that lounge looks good.
I can't just lay on the lounge and have a sleep, but I try to regulate it.
And when I walk into that room and shut the door, that's work time.
So that, that gives me that structure in life and that, that helps me stay balanced.
But look, my life.
I'm still on the journey.
I'm all over the place on things.
I just, I do things that interest me.
What I'm doing now is interesting me.
It's challenging me.
And like, I'm enjoying it.
Um, I, I really, I'm going to appreciate, I really appreciate similar to you that my,
my podcast life is, um, since I started eight years ago, like my God, we first started podcasting
my very first podcast.
We had six people in the studio.
I don't know what I was thinking.
It was a half hour podcast.
I was trying to interview.
Six people at once.
Um, but we, and we've evolved over a long period of time, but we, most of the time we're
just scrambling, not really knowing what the fuck we're doing.
Um, there's no guidebook for any of this shit.
Um, you just, you know, you maybe Joe Rogan or someone that, but their audiences, we go
through an eight million people live in America.
We don't have that here.
So it's, it's an interesting process for me.
It's just like, it has been few.
And, uh, and, uh, and I, I have to say that, um, I'm obsessed with crime.
I'm obsessed with criminals.
I'm obsessed with.
I'm obsessed with policing.
I'm obsessed with whodunits.
I love whodunits.
Um, whether it's a real life whodunit or even if it's a movie or a, that's what I love to
watch on Netflix, whodunit.
Um, I think you, you live in a, your business world.
You live in a world which a lot of people would be jealous of.
I mean, a lot of people would love those, that world.
Um, but I have to tell you, Gary, uh, mate, I'm filthy that you left the cops and didn't
And the other thing that I'm filthy on is that Matty Nabel, who, by the way, God rest,
he, um, uh, Aaron, his brother, um, who recently died, um, from motor neurone disease.
Um, and we're sorry, Matty, for that and your family's loss, but he came to me three weeks
before I was having a coffee up the road and he came to me three weeks before we were due
And he said to me, uh, I, I'm going to come watch your fight.
And I thought, oh, cool.
Cause I've known Matty for many years.
I thought he's coming to watch me.
And, uh, and I said, yeah, yeah.
I said, you know, the bloke I'm fighting.
Cause I didn't know him.
I didn't know him.
I didn't know him.
I didn't know him.
I didn't really know you.
And, um, he said, yeah, yeah.
He's a good friend of mine.
And he said, I played him in the series.
And, uh, and he said, um, and I said, oh, really?
He said, you're coming to watch me?
He said, I'm rooting for him.
He said, I'm going to be effectively in his corner, not in your corner, but like, you
know, behind you.
And I said, fuck.
Like, thanks, Matty.
Like, uh, I was actually devastated, man.
I was really filthy.
Sorry about that.
That's all right, mate.
And, uh, don't worry.
But, uh, I just, that made it more so that I wanted a rematch.
Um, and, uh, but you left the police timely because, you know, I know basically the bottom
line is you did not want a rematch.
Are you suggesting I've faked all this just to get another, okay.
You did all this, but the good thing about it is I'm happy about it because look what
you've done for yourself.
You've turned yourself into a great broadcaster.
You've got a great podcast.
You're, uh, you're, you're right up there in terms of most listened to shows.
You do a great live show.
Um, and I'm really happy you're learning about yourself and learning about a different type
of life and enjoying it at the same time and making a quid.
Well, thanks, Mark.
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