114 How To Master The Art Of Winning The Room

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I'm Mike Boris and this is Straight Talk.

They're the five aspects that a great pitcher or presenter needs to have.

Jonathan Pease, he's not just a book writer.

If I was to read out to you his profile, I'd be going on for 10 minutes.

I've seen amazing ideas not get invested or fall away because they're just not pitched right.

That's the difference how it is pitched.

So your book, Winning the Room, it's about the pitch.

It is.

This is why I believe I can coach it.

I'm not a natural.

In fact,

I was absolutely terrible, like just a terrible public speaker to the point where I would

not turn up for work or shirk meetings if I knew I had to present.

I'm in New York at the best agency in the world.

Everyone around me was unbelievable.

I realized I had to make a part of what I did.

So I started observing, writing down, gathering, doing every course I could.

So I'm able to really help people go from wherever they are to a lot better, right?

To get to more yes.

It's more than just pitching the idea.

It's pitching the person.

Most people don't even talk.

They talk about likeability in business and they're missing a huge part of it, right?

Because people do want to work with people they like, scientifically proven.

And I've seen it in so many pitches and meetings over the years.

What is likeability?

How do you do it?

People that are nervous, right, of public speaking or pitching.

I say to them, I wouldn't usually talk about this, but in...

That's what Straight Talk's about.

I will for you.

Thank you.

Jonathan Pease, welcome to Straight Talk, mate.

Thank you very much, Mark.

Now, it's been a while since I first met you.

But because...

I first met you at the Soane Hearts and Minds Conference.

And I was introduced to you by our mutual friend and who is currently...

I think he's the chairman of Baron Joey.

I think he's the chairman or managing director or something like that.

But he's the boss anyway.

And he put the whole...

I'm talking about Matty Grounds here, of course.

G'day, Matty.

I'm sure you'll be listening to this.

And he gave you this massive rap to me in front of you and also not in front of you,

like by text.

And I thought, wow.

I want to get you on the show.

But then I went and read it through the brief.

My God.

He didn't cover one-tenth of what you've done.

And by the way, I have to tell you, I feel like I'm sitting across from Keith Urban.

Has anyone ever told you that before?

It's been said before, mate.

It's been said before.

Like, seriously?

Like, dude.

And it turns out, as we had a little chat before, we have lots of friends in common.

So mostly women, funnily enough.

And you're a lot younger than me.

But it seems like you've covered a lot of ground.

So I wouldn't mind just...

Getting through that reasonably quickly.

But just to give us some context of who you are.

And I think we should quickly just talk about the Sown Hearts and Minds Conference.

Love to.

So we started Hearts and Minds eight years ago.

We being who?

Matthew Grounds, Guy Fowler, Gary Weiss, myself and a few other people contributing.

And, you know, eight years on, we've donated $60 million to Australian Medical Research,

which we're pretty proud of.

And really what we do is we get the best...

We get the best investment minds, philanthropists and scientists in a room to pitch their very best ideas.

On the day?

On the day.

Yeah.

And look, most of these people don't pitch their ideas out there to the general public.

So it's kind of an interesting dynamic in this room.

Are they looking for investors?

No.

No, they're not.

And everything, everything goes to charity, right?

Like I said, everything goes to medical research from the day.

Right.

Hence why we've been able to donate so much.

And look, I mean, it's the highest stakes pitch room in Australia.

I think by far.

You know, if you think about it, you've got billions of dollars in the room as far as investors goes.

They're investing in front of their peers, which is really tricky.

And we're asking these subject matter experts to really res it down to eight minutes.

Every pitch has to be eight minutes, which is really, really hard.

And the media's there, you know, pretty high scrutiny in the opera house.

So, yeah, it's tricky, man.

And I, you know, I really respect everyone that comes and pitches at this conference.

It's a pretty big deal.

You also, at the back of this, there's a fund.

Yes.

So there's a...

There's actually a managed fund.

Correct.

And the managed fund invests in what?

Well, I mean, it invests in a lot of stocks.

Yeah.

Across the, you know, mainly things that come out of the conference, but also other things as well.

And again, the proceeds from that goes to medical research.

So the guys raised $500 million about three years ago, and it's going pretty well.

Yeah.

So, and what is your role?

Because, I mean, on the day, you look like you were producing or directing the whole show to me.

Yeah, look, I'm not a finance guy per se.

Yeah, look, I'm a creative.

So I'm in there training all the speakers.

That's kind of one of the foundational roles.

So I get to work with all those amazing people, which is just such a joy.

I also do all the creative directions.

So figuring out how it will come to life.

Who's the musical act?

How can we make this different?

How did you get someone to put it to you?

Yeah, so we work with friends and connections around the place.

I've got a really good mate, Dan Rosen, from Warner, president of Warner over there.

And look, he organized Ian for us this year, and he's incredible.

He always helps us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Part of the Stonehearts and Mines family.

So, yeah, we get interesting musical types.

We get also different types of thinkers.

So not just your sort of regular finance people.

Peter Atiyah is a great example.

Obviously, a longevity expert.

Not much to do with finance, but it's all to do with human performance, right?

But he's a scientist.

Yeah.

Yeah, he is.

Absolutely.

And he's a drawcard.

Yeah, big time.

I mean, I looked around the room, and I thought, well, just about every billionaire in the room

is probably thinking to themselves, how can I live longer?

And probably there are others.

Something money can't buy, right?

Correct.

And the other other half probably gave him Peter Atiyah's book, because everybody I know

has seen or got Peter Atiyah's book last year or the year before, for Christmas or Father's

Day.

Father's Day usually is a good one.

Absolutely.

And I guess that's a good audience for Peter, too.

Yeah.

Look, it is.

I mean, I've been a big Peter Atiyah fan for some time, read his book, I'd like to think,

before most.

And then, yeah, with the team, we went hard to get him, and I'm absolutely delighted we

got him.

I think he was amazing.

So can I ask you just on that, though, given your creative experience, and we're going

to come back to where that creative experience came from, but given your creative experience,

you're holding an event.

Your objective is to raise money for medical research and or scientific research around

biological issues.

Yeah.

When you send out the invitations or whatever it is, I don't know how it works, but whenever

you send out the invitations or at least the notification that this is about to happen

and you're trying to get as many people there as possible, how do you think about, how does

a creative person like you think about, who should I get in as both a musician and or

the...

The drawcard.

Yeah.

Even though he's not really a finance guy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it comes back to the original brief that Matthew and Guy gave myself and a few other

people, which was, we want to do something different, right?

Finance people and people with access to money have been getting dragged to charity balls

and things like that for eons, right?

And some of them are good.

A lot of them are not so good.

Yeah.

Sure.

Exactly.

You said it.

But yes, exactly.

So it's actually not about raising money.

It's about a value exchange, right?

We want people to come to this event and get something that they almost can't value.

It's so brilliant from a stock tip point of view, from an educational point of view, from

an entertainment point of view.

So when we think about who should be there and how we're going to do it, we've got that

lens on, right?

So it's just, who could be different?

Who's going to teach people something they don't know, they don't even know?

They're the types of people we're looking for.

And yeah, just trying to be different, right?

Trying to be different in that space.

Yeah.

But do you follow trends?

So because a lot of people who listen to these podcasts and a lot of people just generally

in business are always looking, what's the new trend?

How can I sort of dial into that trend and run off the momentum that that trend is creating

and get some of that for myself?

It's a bit of reflected glory or a little bit of reflected marketing.

How important is it for us to all follow trends?

Because longevity right now is a big trend.

Big.

And it's a huge trend, particularly about your marketplace.

So do you, when you're, you know, when JP's, you know, looking at who you want to draw

in, your audience, who you want to draw into the show, it's a show, who do you want to

draw into the show?

Do you profile them?

And when you profile, I don't, maybe you write down the profiles, perhaps mentally profile

them, but do you profile them and say, what is their big trend interest at the moment?

Hmm.

Yeah.

Look, we look for themes, but there are a lot of people doing that.

Trending themes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Look, I guess, I mean, I hate the word trend personally.

Let's just call it, you know, relevant themes, but there's a lot of people doing that, right?

Doing the same thing.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I mean, a conference about AI would be almost every conference running

right now, right?

A conference about machine learning would be everywhere.

Yeah.

So we certainly don't want to do that, but we need to keep it in context, but then how

could we spin that?

Right.

So that's what we're looking for.

We're looking for the theme, but then how do we push it slightly?

Right to the right or the left, or just give a different viewpoint.

So yeah, that's how I would think about trends.

And we're trying to find people that maybe haven't been to Australia before, you know,

people haven't had access to it.

We haven't seen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's very interesting because I'll be honest, when Grounsy told me that he was getting a

tea, I said, mate, I need an invitation.

And then Ginge, well, Ginge is going anyway, and we just decided to go together.

Yeah.

But that got me straightened.

I thought, but that's pretty smart.

Yeah.

Because I'm a finance guy, like, and probably wouldn't otherwise go, have gone.

I didn't realize Grounsy was behind this stuff anyway, but I would have gone if he

had asked because he's a mate.

Yeah.

But what really got me was your tea conference, the tea part.

Now, when you hold the event, yeah, it was a little underwhelming, Peter was, because

he's not going to get up there and like, A, he's the interviewer normally, and B, he likes

to dig deep, go right into the weeds with the science.

Yes, he does.

I mean, I don't know if you, I guess you listen to his stuff.

Of course I do, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan.

And a lot of times he just loses me because I don't know what the fuck he's talking about,

but, or both of the, him and the other person talking to her.

So I guess it was not appropriate for him to get into the weeds.

And of course, you know, you had a great interviewer of him.

Yeah, Lee did a wonderful job.

Yeah, Lee Sales is unbelievably awesome.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I love Lee, she's great.

And we're trying to get her on our show, actually, but now she's retired.

But she was fantastic.

But.

And I found everything he said I already read in the book.

But then I thought to myself, it doesn't matter, I would have gone anyway.

So how do you deal with that sort of outcome for yourself?

I mean, you know, you go back, sit down, you debrief on the show, you say like,

how did it go, and do you go back and get feedback from all the people?

Yeah.

Do you get feedback from everybody?

Yeah, we do, of course.

Yeah, you do a feedback loop?

We do, yeah, we do.

And what did you think you learned from that on this occasion?

And how do you learn?

How do you learn about these things?

How do you and your team learn about these things?

Yeah, look, I mean, we're eight.

We're eight years in, so I'd like to think we have learned a little bit.

So one thing you probably did notice with Peter,

we made sure that was a live cross rather than a prepackaged cross.

Very important to me, that was.

Very, very important.

And we've done, you know, crosses with certain people before that have been prepackaged.

So, for example, you know, with Charlie Munger many years ago,

we did a prepackaged piece.

And, look, it was excellent.

Charlie Munger, how could it not be?

But we learned something from that.

And we thought, you know what, when we get the big names,

we're going to make sure that we do it live.

And we're going to get someone like Lee Sales, if we're lucky enough,

to do the interview.

Because I think that gave it a big lift.

Look, we often get people who have written books.

So Bill Browder was another guy we had a few years ago,

obviously written a couple of amazing books.

My brief and my sort of, my, I wouldn't say demand,

but certainly my beg is please don't tell us about the book.

We've either read it or we're about to read it because it's in the gift bag.

Please take us.

That's right, you gave it as a gift.

Yeah, yeah.

So please take us.

Take us to the bedside.

Take us to your new and emerging stuff.

Because something I love about Peter is he has strong opinions,

but they're pretty lightly held.

You know what I mean?

In the sense that he's all about something,

but then if data tells him otherwise, he'll change.

So I think he did that on a few things recently.

So we wanted to really get into the new, new stuff.

I think he did a bit of it.

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, there was a bit of book review and, you know,

look, I'm not sure that can be avoided.

So what did you get out of it?

Because, I mean, how do you top that next year?

Like, that's a bloody hard thing to do.

This is always a challenge and it's funny because we often meet

with Matthew and others in about, I don't know,

a couple of weeks actually, and we do exactly that.

We think about, okay, well, how could we get bigger and better?

Because it's going to take a long time to get there.

Yeah.

It must take ages to plan that out.

It does.

It does.

We start in about March and, you know, crack on all through the year.

Look, we've got some really, really big names in the sort

of nearly firmed up zone already for this year.

So, look, for eight years,

we've gotten better and better and I don't think we're going to stop.

So when you pitch, do you pitch it to Peter or Tia?

I mean, is that part of it?

Absolutely.

Okay.

So your book.

I pitched that one and, yeah, it was a big part of that one.

And I'm not sort of, you know, big nutting myself,

but I'm massive on longevity, massive on that sort of stuff.

So it was a real passion point for me, along with I knew it had hit

with the audience, which so far with hearing it definitely did.

But, yeah, no, I did pitch that one.

Okay.

So pitching is an area you.

You know, you're an expert in and we'll go back to, you know.

Well, it's a passion, right?

Like I hate the idea of being an expert in it because every day I learn

something that I'm crap at and I try and get better at it.

But it is a passion, right?

Like it's actually not my job.

It's something I do for pure joy.

Yes, it has great commercial outcomes.

I don't know it can for anyone, but I get real joy out of doing it.

So your book, Winning the Room, it's about the pitch.

It is.

So, and.

You know, the pitch is like everybody talks about it, I guess.

And, you know, we have, you know, everybody's doing a startup.

Things they want to pitch to the investors, et cetera, et cetera.

I work with a lot of startups.

Yeah, I was going to say that.

At exactly that point where they've got the articulation of what they think it is.

And then I get in there and help them basically retool the content,

but then importantly retool how you might deliver it.

Right?

Like I've seen amazing ideas not get invested or fall away because they're

just not pitched right.

And I've also.

Which is the scary part.

Seen pretty average ideas get pitched really well and then get invested.

And you're like, oh my God.

Like that's, it's actually, that's the difference how it is pitched.

Obviously you want the basics of a great idea,

but I think the pitch can make almost all the difference.

Can we talk about Winning the Room then?

Yeah.

I mean, just because a lot of people like, I mean,

people ask me all the time and, you know,

I can pitch my own stuff because I believe in it and, you know,

I can read a room pretty well.

But me being able to transfer it across somebody else, you know,

I just, I'm just not very good at it.

So teaching someone or coaching someone or helping someone or assisting someone

to explain their passion and their great idea and with passion and also knowing,

knowing who they're talking to.

So, you know, when you pitch to a tier or his team,

I guess you'd probably pitch, he's probably got a team as he does have a team.

Pretty big team these days.

Is it really?

Yeah.

So when you pitch to his team, you know, you're,

you're up against a whole lot of things because you wanted him coming,

coming in at our time, which is a weird time for him.

Yeah, super inconvenient.

Super inconvenient.

And also in his day job, he is saving lives.

So to get him to come away from that, to, you know,

sort of dance around in a conference.

And talk to billionaires.

Yeah, it's tricky, right?

So what did you.

Like he's got more pressing issues than us, let's be honest.

Yeah, totally.

And more, more, more demand too.

So how did you work out that appealing piece that would resonate to him?

How did you work that out?

Yeah.

In your pitch to him?

Yeah.

Well, look, I mean, it came through conversation.

So we started with quite a big ask and quite a big undertaking that we

wanted him to do with us.

And then through conversation,

we realized where the gaps were and where he could make some concession,

but so could we.

And we sort of found a, you know, it's such a typical statement,

but a bit of a win-win moment where we could do it in a way that worked for

us, but it was also minimal lift for him.

And then at the,

at the end we brought in some of the real benefits like people in the room and

real outcome focused stuff, which I think then got him over the line.

But yeah, to answer your question,

it was a sort of a conversational piece where we figured out what could we give

and what could he give in order to get somewhere that would work mainly for him.

Cause obviously we were keen as mustard, but yeah,

just figuring out where we could both give to meet somewhere in the middle.

So I think that's how we did it.

So did you start off with a big arc and then you just sort of,

slowly but surely bring the arc in to where you want it to be?

Like you sort of dance around a little bit.

Well, look, there's no set formula, but in that instance,

and I'll just tell, I wouldn't usually talk about this,

but in that's what straight talks about, I will for you.

We pitched really long to start with, which means what big ask,

you know, multiple days, big travel, you know,

all sorts of requests and you know,

that was batted away, but in the batting away,

we were able to gather enough information to go, oh, okay.

I see if we did it like this,

it would fit in with his podcast schedule, with his medical profession,

all the rest.

So we're able to sort of find a much smaller ask that still suited us

that he could say yes to pretty easily. I think in the end.

Do you do it with him or did you do it with his team?

So cause you'll find stuff out from his team. They're going to offer things up.

It's sort of like a long,

long form negotiation and you're finding out what you can offer,

what he can offer, how important to him was it,

or I don't even know if this happened, but it did at some point in the process.

It sounds like a process because what I'm thinking about is people who have

startups.

First up it was a no, straight no.

No way.

So sorry, I can't.

Yeah.

Right.

That was the first response.

I can't because why?

Schedule, time management, you know, et cetera.

But immediately what'd you find out?

So,

when you heard that?

Yeah.

So we immediately found out a couple of things that are really non-negotiable for him,

i.e. being able to do his podcast,

being able to service within his medical profession like he does.

Also just general time management.

So he's a guy,

as you probably know,

that runs a very,

very tightly knit schedule and he sort of measures every hour and he's optimising as per his book.

So we had to find a way where we could fit inside that window.

And that involved,

you know,

relinquishing a little bit of pre-media and all sorts of things that we could start to take away where it became harder and harder for him to say no,

basically.

That's right.

Or easier and easier to say yes.

So a lot of research though and patience.

Oh, patience definitely.

I don't know how much research.

You know,

I'm a sort of a very optimistic realist.

So I went in thinking we're going to get him for sure.

And then I kind of worked back from that belief.

Not to say it was,

you know, sort of fly by the seat of my pants.

But certainly went in thinking it was going to happen.

And then as we got the no's and the no's and the maybes and the yes,

I just stayed on track with that.

And look,

stayed flexible,

stayed generous and tried to be as giving as we could be.

Because I mean,

look,

everything about this conference is a value exchange,

I'd like to believe.

With our speakers,

and we wouldn't have anything without them,

but hopefully they get a lot of value out of it.

Right?

Our audience,

same deal.

It's a big ticket item,

right?

It's three and a half grand to attend.

And I really hope they get 20 grand of value,

right?

I believe they do.

And everybody,

the media partners,

the location,

the caterers,

everyone we get involved,

it's all about value exchange.

So that's what it was with Peter.

How could we give him as much value whilst fitting within his regime,

I guess you'd call it.

Well,

he doesn't care with you.

He's not hoping he's going to sell the book,

because you're going to give the book away anyway,

and you probably bought a whole lot of books from him.

But that's probably not overwhelmingly important enough for him.

He's already got a bestseller.

Yeah.

What was it?

What was the killer?

What was the-

Well,

I mean,

he's got a bigger purpose,

which is around to your point,

what you do,

really helping people,

right?

Like that's his main purpose.

So we're able to talk about the people in the room,

the level of interest,

the level of media.

You know,

Australia is a pretty important market for him.

He's actually got decent traction here.

So it was really about embellishing and engaging with that audience.

Can I come back to something?

You said before,

which I found really interesting.

You were sort of,

you were comparing you and I,

when it comes to pitching and you can pitch your own stuff really well,

which I have no doubt.

I would guess that you're a natural as in you haven't really done any training.

Is that accurate?

No training.

Correct.

Okay,

great.

I figured that.

So this is why I believe I can coach it.

I'm not a natural.

In fact,

I was absolutely terrible.

I moved to New York at 21,

had a starter,

was terrible.

Like just-

To do what?

Work in advertising.

Right.

Terrible pitcher,

terrible public speaker to the point where I would not turn up for work or shirk meetings if I knew I had to present.

But too stressed out or too anxious.

Yeah.

I mean,

terrible.

And I was surrounded by incredible pitchers.

You know,

I'm in New York at the best agency in the world.

Everyone around me was unbelievable.

So no one cared if I pitched.

Over the journey of 10 years in New York,

I realized number one,

I couldn't shirk and I had to make a part of what I did.

So I started observing,

writing down,

gathering,

doing every course I could.

So I am that person who doesn't know how to pitch,

who has been trained.

Therefore,

I'm able to hopefully write a good book that unpacks that.

But also in my coaching sessions,

really help people go from wherever they are to a lot better,

right?

To get to more yes.

That's effectively the goal.

Well,

could you explain to me,

I think it's,

I mean,

you're assuming something is,

it's quite important that why in an advertising agency do you need to know how to pitch?

Yeah.

That's a good question.

Most,

and even more than that,

I'm a creative.

Why the hell do I need to pitch?

What does that mean when you say that?

So in advertising,

you've got people who let's call them account service.

They deal with clients every day.

They are pitching a lot.

And then you've got creatives who basically come up with the work,

come up with the ideas.

The best ones do pitch their own work,

but it's not a core skill,

right?

It's sort of like a periphery skill for a creative.

I realized early on probably wasn't going to be the best creative in the world.

It's going to be good.

You know,

like I've made a,

I've had a decent living.

I've had a lot of fun.

But I realized there was other things I could be great at.

And I believed pitching.

Once I got over the fear,

I believe that could be something I was great at.

So I've really focused on it from that point of view.

Since then,

I've had my own agencies where I've had teams of people and I've realized,

well,

if we want this business to be commercially successful,

we need to pitch our creative ideas to clients effectively.

So they buy them.

And so they keep buying them.

And if we don't do that,

well,

we'll go to business.

And if we do do that,

we'll have a really flourishing,

successful agency.

So it became a,

a really commercial pursuit in getting myself and others to be better at

pitching.

Because I think a lot of people think that advertisers,

let's call it Kellogg's or whatever it is.

Even my old company,

Wizard Yellow Big Road.

Yeah.

They think that we go along to your agency and we say,

just write an ad for us and do it.

That's not really usually how it happens.

Normally the way my understanding of it,

my experience in it is that we go along to four agencies,

five agencies.

And we say,

here's a brief.

These are the customers we want to get.

Here's something about our business.

Here's our budget.

Yep.

Pitch your idea for us.

So then the agency goes to the creative people within the organization and

they create something.

Then either the creative person or some account manager or whatever it is

comes and pitches the idea.

Yep.

And it can be the world's best idea,

but if it's pitch shit house.

That's right.

It doesn't get there.

And then me,

the client,

I'll pick one of those five.

Okay.

And look,

does that still happen that way?

Yes,

absolutely.

And it's,

you know,

what I've learned over the years is it's more than just pitching the idea.

It's pitching the person.

It's pitching the agency,

right?

Like people want to work with people they like.

And that's my point around average ideas can actually get up with a great

pitch because people want to work with you and really great ideas can die

because they're like,

God,

I love the thinking.

I love the idea.

I just can't work with that agency or that person or I don't believe them,

whatever it may be.

But yeah,

that's exactly how it still happens.

So likeability.

And it's hyper competitive.

So likeability,

which by the way is a big thing in the social media,

social media world today,

likeability,

because obviously the,

the psychologists and all those people have worked out how they can influence

us.

And likeability is really important.

How do you,

could you just define likeability a little bit for me?

Like,

not,

not like the idea,

but like when it comes to the person,

how do you work likeability out?

I mean,

how do you work out if you're coaching 10 people,

how any one of those individuals can become likeable?

They've got to be affable,

friendly,

you know,

social,

you know,

prepared to go and play tennis with a client.

What is likeability?

Yeah.

How do you do it?

Yeah.

So in my book,

I talk about the claim methodology.

So that's something that I developed just through the process of writing it.

So claim as in confidence,

likeability,

authenticity,

influence,

and memorability.

They're the five aspects that a great pitcher or presenter needs to have.

Right.

Confidence,

likeability,

and authenticity,

influence,

and memorability,

right?

They're the five things.

Obviously likeability is in there.

Most people don't even talk about likeability in business,

or at least the people that I've met,

right?

I talk about it all the time.

Do you?

Well,

that's great because most people don't.

And that's because it's like,

well,

I'm a subject matter expert.

Surely my genius and my past experience is enough.

You don't have to like me,

just like my work.

And they're missing a huge part of it,

right?

Because people do want to work with people they like,

scientifically proven,

and I've seen it proven in so many pitches and meetings over the years.

But back to your question,

how do you do it?

Well,

number one,

you need to start getting all those things firing because likeability,

you know,

it's linked with confidence.

It's linked with authenticity.

It's linked with memorabilia.

Memorabilia,

right?

Like if you're.

Memorabilia,

that one I want to just hit on.

What does that mean?

So you want to make sure that you,

your ideas,

your agency stick out and can be remembered.

There's a couple of key reasons.

Number one,

obviously you just want to be present of mind for that client.

So they continue to think about you,

but also if it's done well,

your ideas become portable.

What I mean by that is that client can walk out of the room and easily pitch

your idea to their boss,

to the next person they see in the street.

And suddenly your idea starts spreading like smoke.

In an organization.

And you don't have to be there,

right?

Like it's,

it's a lot of work to set up every meeting and pitch and pitch and pitch.

I mean,

it's so much more scalable to pitch once in a really memorable way.

That client then goes off and pitches for you.

And that happens,

right?

I mean,

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like it,

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We were made for this.

That's very interesting.

Could I just,

if you don't mind,

I just want to pick on someone like Elon Musk.

He's memorable.

That's my point.

That's why I asked you about the memorability bit.

Because maybe you just take me through this.

So like,

obviously Musk pitches to the world,

but he's pitching all the time to raise money for his space exploration,

et cetera,

because there's no return in it at this stage.

What do you think,

just off the top of your head as an analytical sense,

why has he been so successful?

At pitching to the people he pitches to?

I think Elon Musk is fully expressing himself.

And I think that is just so watchable,

so contagious,

so investable,

right?

Like that guy is,

he's leaving nothing behind the curtain.

I mean,

I've never met the guy,

would love to get him down to Stonehearts and Mike.

Next year.

Correct.

But yeah,

I think that's what it's about,

right?

Like he is a full expression of himself and you know,

you're getting everything.

You mean he leaves nothing on the table.

Yeah.

It's all out.

It's just,

you know,

let's go to the other end of the spectrum.

Donald Trump,

not personally a fan.

Why is he so,

like,

why is he able to connect?

I think it's down to a similar thing,

right?

Like he is just putting it all out there,

saying whatever he wants.

I'm sure you saw the,

you know,

the caucus speech recently.

It was just like,

how is a politician saying this stuff?

And they lap it up.

So look,

I think it comes down to that probably,

aside from the fact that Elon Musk,

is a straight up genius pioneer,

super brave,

super confident,

a lot of the other things along the claim methodology.

But yeah,

I think what makes him unique is that just self-expression,

right?

You just feel like you're in the room with a friend when you hear from him,

right?

Like he's just no bullshit really.

No bullshit one sort of ties into the authenticity piece.

I mean,

like let's say we've got a person who's a genius,

like brilliant at something.

Yeah.

And that particular person was going to pitch to investors to raise money.

And,

but this person's,

let's call them a scientist and they're,

they're in the weeds.

They're a scientist.

They don't really know.

They're not good at reading people,

but they,

what they do is admirable.

And you admire the genius.

You admire their ability to never give up.

You admire the fact that they work 20 hours a day.

How do you tell your audience that without looking like you're showing off?

It's a terrific question.

I'm dealing with a med tech startup right now.

The head guy is an absolute boffin genius.

And yeah,

the last thing we wanted to do is go into pitches and boats.

That would be not likable.

It wouldn't feel very authentic.

It probably wouldn't be influential,

probably be memorable for the wrong reason.

So what we did in that instance,

we actually created humor around his genius.

So I can't divulge the person or the business,

but he did a whole bunch of hacking together the product before they got to market.

I'm talking in his own house.

And we found photos of him.

And he looks like Dr.

Emmett Brown from Back to the Future.

Like he's just in there boffining away.

So we use those photos to talk about the level of passion and just drive this guy has.

So we use humor to sort of back in his real genius.

And look, that's not the only way, but it's one way.

It certainly works in Australia.

Like I think people enjoy humor.

They love self-deprecating humor.

You know, like when people are great at what they do,

I think that's the best way to do it.

I think that's the best way to do it.

I think you can actually ease off the boasting and go more into, you know,

just humor and poking fun at it really.

Sort of take the piss out of yourself.

I think so.

In a respectful way.

Yeah.

Because like how many people, I mean, you probably say this all the time,

I definitely say it all the time, is they think they've got to tell a story.

They feel like they've got to tell a story about, you know,

how they were raised in this shithole and, you know,

and out of against all the odds they raise themselves up.

And it's a great story.

But, my God, like it's been told.

It's been told so many bloody times.

It's sort of starting to feel like it's disingenuous to me.

Very formulaic.

Very formulaic.

And if you speak to a PR expert, they'll tell you to come up with that arc.

Yeah, write the book.

Yeah.

Write a book.

But what was the-

About your life.

Yeah, exactly.

And also, what was the obstacle?

What were the barriers and how did you overcome them?

And then how can you make that relatable to the rest of the market?

Yeah, yeah.

That's the sort of formula.

Yeah, relate back to me.

Yeah.

And the reason it works is because it is relatable.

Yeah.

Right?

It makes it feel accessible for people.

Is it dangerous now?

Well, I think if it's not true, it is, 100%.

But what about-

But even if it is true, like how about the delivery of it?

Like how do I deliver it without making it look like it is formulaic?

Well, I think stories.

Stories is probably the hot wire way to do that.

Make it as anecdotal as possible.

And yeah, don't make it up.

That's the key, right?

Old photos.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Visually.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the visual concept is quite-

Because, you know, I know so many people that come into my shows,

not this one, but the mentor show,

and largely they start off with,

And even my show was, my mentor show was,

when we first started eight years ago, it was about that.

Like, tell me your story.

Like, you know, who were you growing up?

What were your parents like?

And to be honest with you, I started to get a bit bored with myself,

asking the questions.

And then I started thinking to myself, hang on,

this has become very formulaic.

I've become formulaic.

And it was, and the market sort of momentum moved into the same formula.

And I thought, no, how do I now spruce up my own show?

Yeah.

Keep myself interested.

I always take the view that my show is not interesting

if I'm not interested.

If I lose interest, then I fuck with it.

That's a good test.

It's no good for me.

It's a very good test.

And, you know, maybe I started the, in some respects,

I did a bit of the formula myself.

I mean, when I first got involved with Gary Packer, you know,

there's a kid from Punchbowl somehow is in partnership with Gary Packer.

Like, what the hell?

Yeah.

I mean, that was a good story.

Yeah.

But I've overdone it now myself.

I mean, and by the way, I didn't create a story.

I didn't, it was the truth.

Yeah.

And like, how the hell could you get involved with the richest man,

most powerful man in the country at the time?

It was actually the truth.

But the more I told it, the more, I don't know, mundane it became.

And I think, fuck me, I can't even listen to myself talk about this shit,

let alone the audience, expecting the audience to.

So if you do have a genuinely good story about why you decided to do something

because there was some obstacle in your way and you came up with a solution

to that obstacle, which you now feel as though you can parlay

to those other people in the world.

Sure.

Who are not.

Sure.

Who have the same obstacle.

I mean, you were a little bit like that yourself.

Yeah, a little bit.

For 10 years you struggled.

And I can tell you why.

So to me, it comes back to how can you add value?

You know, that's actually what I say to people that are nervous, right,

of public speaking or pitching.

I say to them, you know what?

It's actually not about you.

It's about the audience and how you can add value to the audience.

So step one to the side of the content, be the guide and add value, right?

So it just becomes less about you, less pressure.

Now, often that has a little bit of an unlock for people with nerves and confidence.

But anyway, back to your specific question.

So to me, it's about how can you add value?

So if that sort of story, that origin story adds value to your audience, tell it.

And if it doesn't, if it's just a great story that sort of builds you up, et cetera,

don't tell it because it's not actually adding value.

Don't waste your time.

Correct.

And I know that sounds slightly simplistic, but why does anyone do anything on social media,

in a pitch room?

In the media, wherever it may be?

Well, it should be to add value to the audience, right?

Again, all the way back to Sown Hearts and Minds.

Why do we do anything?

To add value to our audience.

And if it's not doing that, we really try not to do it if we can help it.

So that's how I would think about it.

So why do I have my story in there about, hey, you know what?

I was a terrible presenter, had a startup, bit of an idiot.

I have that in there, one, because it's true.

Well, it also surprises and delights me too, because I look at you now,

Sure.

Okay.

That's cool.

And I get surprised and delighted.

I think I will.

He was somebody else before.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, the reason it's in there is because that's what the whole subject matter is about.

Most people come to me, whether it's executives or people on television or whoever,

and their first question is, can this be taught?

And I guess, you know, myself and a lot of people I've worked with are living proof that,

of course, it can be, right?

Absolutely.

To me, it should be a human right.

So that's why it's in there.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

It should be in there, because it's a demonstration of what this is all about.

I truly believe, read the book, work with me, people can up their performance in this,

right?

Can I ask you a question?

My business, Yellow Brick Road, which is a finance company, we do mortgages for people,

right?

And I've got branches all around Australia.

I often say to my guys, look, borrowers have got choices.

They can go to Aussie Home Loans, they can go to Mortgage Choice, they can go to Yellow

Brick Road, they can go straight to the bank, whatever.

But all our products are pretty much the same, pretty much.

There's some nuances, but let's assume the average Australian would be able to qualify

for any, with any one of the lenders.

There's no such, I used to always say to my guys, there's no such thing as an Armani dollar

or a designer dollar.

Dollar is a dollar.

They don't give a fuck where they get the money from, as long as, you know, the conditions

are the same.

But I used to say to them, but if I line you all up at the starting line, the one the customer

is going to choose is the one they like the most.

They don't give a, they accept it.

They don't expect you to be a subject matter expert.

They expect you to know about.

They're the brilliant basics.

Yeah.

But they've got to like you.

So, and I'm trying to get a bit of free advice here, but how would you say to one of my lenders

in, you know, we've got them all across the country, two and a half thousand of them,

how would you say to any one of them, how would they go about getting a customer to

like you?

Because sometimes the customers, they're all different.

You know, sometimes customers think they know everything about the mortgage market.

Sometimes the customers are first timers.

They haven't got a clue.

Et cetera.

Some are smart asses.

Some are just trialing you out because they've got three other inquiries on at the same time.

How do they, you know, especially the younger guys and girls who work for us, the kids under

30, who struggle a little bit.

They struggle a little bit to establish their ability to execute.

I'm trying to borrow a million dollars.

I'm 45 years of age.

Why would I, you're 25.

What do you know?

How the fuck are you going to help me?

And that's a common complaint amongst our young.

Brokers.

Yeah.

How do they go about playing that game?

Yeah.

I mean, it's a complicated question.

It is, but let me have a crack at it.

So firstly, it would be each individual would be different, right?

Because what you have to do with this stuff is you have to figure out what you've got naturally,

whatever that may be, and amplify that, right?

We're certainly not trying to make people into something different, right?

Like someone that's more introverted more often.

We don't want you to be jazz hands.

In fact,

we want to,

to use that personality and make that feel authentic and easy to trust and all the rest.

So it would be a very individual thing to start with,

but I think it's sort of like broad strokes in that industry.

I would be thinking about really understanding why that person is getting a loan because the reasons are different.

And I don't mean why ought to buy a house.

No, no, no.

Beyond that.

Why?

Okay.

To, to take care of my family.

Okay.

But why is that important?

Oh, well,

you know,

legacy and,

you know,

enduring,

enduring my family,

for example.

Okay.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Okay.

I understand the real purpose behind this loan,

not to plug a financial gap.

So that would be the first thing I would try and do.

Yeah.

That's the first thing I would try and do.

And then the second thing I would try and do is,

and this is slightly counterintuitive.

I would pull right away from the sales idea.

You know,

it's almost like,

let me help you.

Let me give you,

let me give you some value if you go with us.

Great.

If you don't,

that's cool too.

In fact,

I'll help you go to someone else and get a loan from someone else if you

choose that.

But let me almost advise you and help you in this process.

And then let's see what happens.

Of course,

if you do that well and you build some trust and empathy,

they will go with that business.

But the point is that in my humble opinion,

it can't be a do the sale objective.

It has to be a,

again,

back to it,

but add value,

right?

Help that person.

And then inevitably that will go with you if you do that well.

So again,

it is a tricky question and it's pretty broad,

but they would be my two broad strokes.

Figure out the real,

why the real purpose.

And that's about asking why a bunch of times to get up in that ladder and

then pull away from the ideal of sales,

which I know is really tricky for people in sales,

right?

They've got KPIs,

they're trying to hit numbers.

How could you think less about sale,

more about adding value to that person?

And then you'll get the sale.

And then you'll get the sale and probably a deeper sale and repeat sales,

right?

Because they find like something we talk about in my game is we want to

be trusted advisors and trusted advisors are the type of people that tell

you not to spend money if it's the right thing to do,

right?

A sales person,

they might buy,

buy,

buy,

sell,

give me more money.

A trusted advisor says,

actually save that money,

put it to the bottom line that there's a better thing we could do later.

Right?

Yeah.

Right.

Do that a couple of times to a client.

Again,

authentically,

they'll trust you for life.

It's funny you raise that with me because before even the start of business,

we were in business together,

but before we really kicked off,

he said to me one day,

he said,

I don't want you to call your business wizard home loans.

He said,

just call yourself wizard.

He said,

because at the end of the day,

he said,

we're in the games of,

we're in the game,

he and I are in partnership,

but we're in the game,

our business is in the game of helping people achieve the hopes and dreams.

He said,

just take the word home loans out.

This is a tricky fucking word.

He said,

and that's a bit of a scary word because it's debt.

Clever.

He said,

talk about hopes and dreams.

They dream they're going to have a home.

They dream they're going to have a portfolio of homes or properties.

They dream they're going to retire comfortably with six properties if that's what they do.

They hope that one day they can put an extension,

they'd put their kids in the back,

whatever the case may be.

And he said,

that's your starting point,

hopes and dreams.

But in terms of the likability stuff,

and I share this with you,

he said to me,

don't just at the end of the deal,

when the deal's transaction's finished and they've settled,

never talk to them again.

He said,

ring them up,

see how they're going.

You know,

is your interest rate okay?

How are you feeling?

And,

you know,

like,

is there anything else I can do for you?

Or how's the property market going around there?

Like,

give them something that's valuable.

Yeah.

Like,

not just,

see you later,

thanks for my commission,

I'm out.

Yeah.

And I thought that was incredibly intuitive of Kerry.

He never had done a course either,

I guess,

but incredibly intuitive,

because he hadn't been in my game.

I'm a numbers guy,

so I'm about financial modeling,

you know,

how to get the pricing.

And it's all about,

you know,

for me,

it's all about the cost,

initial cost,

and then margin and pricing.

Yep.

He said,

that's important, son.

He said,

but make sure you understand what their objective is.

And their objective is not to borrow money

and owe you money for the next 30 years.

Yep.

That's their rational objective.

What's their emotional objective?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you want to be there.

It's interesting you talk about,

you know,

you know,

staying in touch when the deal's done

and therefore there is no more commerce to be done.

We always,

in my game,

we always look for areas that don't get love,

right?

So,

for example,

maybe if we're trying to deal with a whole bunch

of ASX listed companies,

maybe we'll go and talk to just EAs

and we'll throw an EA event.

You know,

why do we do that?

Well,

one,

we want to learn about the businesses,

but two,

those EAs don't get much love from people,

right?

Totally.

They're kind of the core

of these businesses.

They're so important,

but most people just don't give them any love,

just don't really think about them.

Well,

throwing an event for those types of people,

number one,

they'll love it

and really appreciate it.

Number two,

you'll learn a lot.

And number three,

it's just not a very competitive space

because most people are focused on,

you know,

the big,

weak decision maker.

That's where all their sort of interest

and effort goes.

There are real sort of value pockets

where you can go in where other people aren't.

And I think that's an example of it,

right?

After the deal,

you know,

many mortgage brokers

or mortgage companies

are still talking to their clients.

Not many.

Really at all.

Not many.

So suddenly you're in a race of one

being able to do incredibly well.

So I think,

you know,

genius advice,

not surprised.

And with the introduction these days

of social media

and or email,

just emails,

you can send newsletters out.

Like there's,

I mean,

I know a lot of people don't read newsletters,

but if it's a valuable newsletter,

like it says,

look,

this is what CoreLogic's telling us

about the property market

in your area.

You know,

Chatswood,

the property's gone down,

but across the road at Crow's Nest,

they've gone up.

Yep.

That might be valuable to somebody.

It doesn't,

and you've got to,

not everything's going to be valuable to everybody,

but you've got to try everything.

And by the way,

don't try one thing,

try everything.

Like just keep throwing it out there.

Like these days you can send emails out,

it doesn't really matter.

You can send it out to the whole world.

Cost you the same amount of money,

basically.

There's not much more in it.

And see,

I'm trying to get at a Yellow Brick Road business.

What I've been trying to get our guys

to become is liked.

I just say,

the client's got a choice of where they go to,

and don't think they're only coming to you.

They're talking to a lot of people.

They'll go with the one that they like the most.

Yep.

Because the products are different,

pretty much.

Yeah.

So,

okay.

I deal with lots of CEOs and business leaders,

people like yourself.

My challenge would be,

are you allowing your people to express themselves

in their job,

or are they within a fairly rigorous Yellow Brick Road,

not formula,

but way of working?

No,

they,

they're all franchisers.

So,

they basically run their business.

Okay.

And they can run it any way they like?

Any way they like.

Okay.

We don't look at their P&L or anything like that.

Yeah.

So,

what I would be doing,

and I know you're not necessarily asking,

but I'm just,

No,

I want to hear,

yeah,

totally.

I'm fascinated by this sort of stuff.

I would be figuring out,

how do you enable these people

to express their true self

within the bounds of the job?

Right?

Because that is what will get them liked

and make them more memorable.

Right?

I mean,

I've dealt with lots of mortgage type businesses

over the years.

It's relatively formulaic.

It's kind of the same thing.

Take the logo off,

slap another one on,

you'd never know the difference.

Well,

there's a big gap for someone to be out there

filled with personality and individuality,

you know,

with a group of people expressing themselves

within the bounds.

You know,

like it's,

it's appealing.

It's funny,

you know,

like in this whole process,

I've been thinking to myself,

maybe I'm going to go as JP to come along

and talk to our head of sales.

Because like,

you're sort of like,

well,

that's what I do,

Mark.

So,

I'm not saying you can't help yourself,

but it's,

it's natural.

It's authentically real.

I mean,

you do like to help.

Well,

I'm driven by it,

man.

It's,

you know,

it's,

it's a real purpose for me.

It's not just like,

how might I feed my kids?

No,

like,

you know,

I've been fortunate enough that I do what I really love now,

not just what makes money.

So,

yeah.

So,

it's funny,

David Gingell said to me many years ago,

and you know Ging,

he said to me five years ago,

and he's a natural creator,

creative.

Brilliant,

man.

Like,

and he knows audiences really well.

Yeah.

Ex-editor of Channel 9.

So,

therefore,

he should know audiences,

but he said to me,

mate,

just run campaigns where you're effectively letting people know you're going to help them.

Because everybody wants help in the mortgage game.

Like,

or borrowing money.

They need help.

Yeah.

Help them and continue to make them feel like that.

And he said to me,

look at the NRA campaign,

that great campaign,

H-E-L-P.

Yep.

Like,

that's like,

totally brilliant.

I mean,

that's exactly why he won an,

you know,

when you ring NRMA for a road service,

you're needing help.

Yeah.

No matter where you are,

please help me.

But he said,

borrowers are the same,

or a large percentage of borrowers are the same.

There's some smarties,

but the large percentage of borrowers are the same.

And those sorts of natural,

and to me,

I find it quite unnatural,

because there's not many people who naturally think about it like you do,

and he does,

and other people like Kerry does.

There's,

some people just think about these things naturally.

Difference between,

say,

them and you,

is that you,

you have this desire to prosecute it,

which no doubt you've read a book.

You just have,

and you know,

you're running Stonehearts Minds.

You naturally like to prosecute those outcomes.

Help.

You like to prosecute help.

Where's that come from?

That's a pretty good question.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I think probably from the fact that I had to help myself first.

What about going back beyond that?

I'm a very curious person,

you know.

I can't leave things as they are.

I have to turn over the stone and figure it out.

But do you need to,

to fix things?

You are like,

do you naturally have this thing?

I want to fix a problem.

Like if you have an argument with somebody.

I don't love fixing problems.

Let's say you have an argument.

I don't love fixing problems.

And you know what?

The trickier the problem,

and in fact,

the trickier the person,

like I always have this thing I say,

which is I love tricky people.

And what I mean by that is,

if there's a scary CEO in a big ASX business,

I want to meet that.

I want to be in the room with that person.

I want to talk to that person one-on-one.

And I,

I just,

I don't know.

I get a real kick out of doing stuff like that.

So tricky people,

tricky problems.

Absolutely.

That's like moth to a flame for me.

Yeah.

So you're like a solutions type personality.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

You,

does it ever become.

And I love completion.

I love the completion of things.

Right.

Which is why I probably love advertising because you get given a problem.

You then come up with ideas.

You create the solution,

whatever that may be.

And then you tie a bow and you move on.

Like I just love that full circle completion.

So I get the same thing out of,

you know,

I'll meet an executive.

They'll be at a certain level.

I'll lift them,

you know,

20,

30%.

And then I'll see the fruits of that.

I'll see them getting more.

Yes.

I'll see them progressing in their career.

I'll see their business,

you know,

uptick in commercials,

whatever it may be.

I get a massive kick out of that.

When I see people like that though.

And I know a couple of people like that,

not many like you,

how do you deal with failure then when it doesn't work?

That's part of it.

That's part of it.

I mean,

I've failed more than I've succeeded.

That's for damn sure.

And,

and I also think the best stuff comes after failure and pain.

So to me,

you never fail if you never stop.

And I never stop.

So it's all part of the process,

right?

And this book wouldn't be written.

I wouldn't be coaching if I hadn't failed so many times,

right?

Because that was the second question Kerry had asked me.

Have you ever failed?

Yeah.

It's funny you say that.

There's a guy in New York,

Dr.

Horace Woody Brock.

You may have heard of him.

He's an amazing mind,

brilliant in finance.

Many,

many years ago when I lived in New York,

I had this probably silly idea and I went to him and I pitched for money.

He never,

he in the end didn't give me the money and I wanted to understand why.

Again,

I'm curious and annoying.

So I continue to hit this guy up and we actually eventually became friends

because it was like,

who is this,

you know,

20 something guy who's like sort of on my back.

His main reason for not giving me the money was because I hadn't failed before.

And he told me that outright.

And I found it so ridiculous and preposterous at the time.

I was like,

what are you talking about?

Like you kidding me?

I'm Teflon.

I haven't failed you.

Isn't that brilliant?

And he was just like,

no,

that is a worry.

Like you have no experience effectively.

Right.

Um,

and yeah,

whatever.

20 years later,

I know he was right.

Very,

very right.

Finally now in terms of investment or investor was,

is nearly de rigueur.

Like they,

they're nearly,

it's nearly a condition precedent and not because they want you to have failed,

Yeah.

but they want you to have experienced failure or near failure.

And they want to know whether you're not,

you're resilient enough to move around it.

That's right.

And what did you do?

What'd you learn from that failure?

And how did you sort of,

uh,

I hate the word pivot,

but like reshape the whole thing,

if at all,

or how did you start up again?

Because,

you know,

because inevitably the assumptions we make when we first look at our pitch and

our idea and whether or not it's going to work in the market,

they change.

Of course.

Variables.

They're all variables.

And more than ever,

right?

Like,

totally.

Look forward,

the amount of change that's coming,

coming and happening right now.

It's unprecedented.

I hate that word,

but it is.

If you're not resilient,

if you're not willing to be wrong and correct,

mate,

you're dead.

I mean,

anyone who thinks they've got the idea and the answer today is going to be

wrong tomorrow.

Well,

how do you pitch that in there?

So how do I convince,

how do I speak to the audience that I'm pitching to?

Let's call,

I'm raising money,

to let them know that I am one of these people because you don't want to look

like you wishy washy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's why it's about the person,

the business,

the,

the approach.

Yes.

The idea has got to be good,

but the idea may well change,

right?

So that's,

that's exactly why they need to buy into all the other softer aspects and

people that just pitched the idea leave value on the table because there's,

you know,

all those other things are not triggered for the audience.

But yeah,

that's exactly why.

So you've got to,

you need to demonstrate somehow,

and it may not be the first meeting.

It may be other meetings,

but you need to demonstrate somehow.

Let me make sure.

I'm interpreting this right.

You need to demonstrate somehow that your personality is such that if the idea needs amendment refinement or change that your personality is one of those personalities is not just going to fuck it.

It's my idea.

I'm never going to change that.

My personality is such that I will make change.

Yeah.

It's,

it's personality,

but it's also methodology and rigor,

right?

Like is this person at an organization set up where they can get enough data to realize they're wrong and have the boldness to correct.

So yeah,

it's personality,

but also,

have you set up the business like that or have you just sort of one eyed gone after one thing and there's really no listening,

no data happening.

I mean,

how could you ever know you were wrong?

You know,

well,

you'll know you're wrong when you're going broke,

right?

And that's obviously too late for investors.

For example,

does that mean you might say to the people you're pitching to look,

I've got an advisory board or two,

but,

but on that advisory board is an independent person or a person who will just tell me the way the fuck it is.

And,

and,

and I will listen to that particular individual part of it,

but also just just straight up measurement,

right?

Like what are we doing to know if this is working,

not working?

What isn't working?

What could we tinker and optimize?

Have you got that system in place?

You know,

if it's a digital business,

there's many,

many ways you can measure everything.

We've got to make sure you're actually doing that and you're demonstrating,

hey,

I'm going to do it in a really efficient way.

Listen and change.

Or evolve.

Yeah,

evolve.

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Refine.

I mean,

they're the words I like to use.

Yeah,

sure.

Because it goes,

because you do have to,

whatever your great idea is at the beginning,

I'll guarantee within three or four years,

that's not exactly the same idea.

It's going to have changed.

Yeah,

absolutely.

My business has always done that.

They just,

they sort of,

and sort of somewhat reflecting the market.

But like also I've worked out shit I thought it was going to be right was stupid,

like in the,

you know,

when I think about it in hindsight.

Um,

and,

but you're saying to me though,

in your pitch and therefore one pitch is going to be very hard to convince anyone.

You need,

how do I make sure,

like you did with T,

you kept having moments with his team.

Yeah.

How do I ensure that?

Because this is something that says,

I'm going to give you a minute.

And a half,

three minutes,

whatever.

Yeah.

What do you,

how do you deal with that?

Yeah.

Well,

you've got to make sure that three and a half minutes is highly,

highly memorable,

right?

You do something different again.

I mean,

we're getting into the weeds of all the techniques,

but you know,

I'll just give you one to sort of demonstrate it at the start of any pitch.

There is a tone in the room,

right?

May well be a formal tone or a whatever tone it is.

Your job as the presenter is to shift that tone.

Right?

So that you just create difference from the word go.

And then obviously you need a well-structured pitch,

but just as one example,

you want to make sure that that three and a half minutes feels like a very,

very different three and a half minutes for that person.

And in my experience,

what often happens is they find another 30 minutes right there and then,

right?

And you just carry on and it's like,

oh wow,

you know,

don't worry,

change my diary.

And they carry on.

They're giving you three and a half minutes because they're worried you're going to waste

their time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So you've got to make your sort of self somewhat different.

How do you read the tone?

Like,

how do you,

like,

you might go on there,

you might be at the end of the day,

they've already heard 20 other people.

I mean,

I used to do it with Bondishes.

I used to go to the US.

So there,

you've got a lot of information right there,

right?

So we already know.

They're tired.

They're fatigued.

They're probably not that interested.

They probably assume they know what you've got to say.

They just heard 20 pitches.

Yeah.

They're all probably similar.

Well,

in that first 30 seconds,

let them know this is different.

Maybe even acknowledge the moment.

Look,

guys,

I know you've had X,

Y,

Z,

and it's time.

This is going to be different for these reasons.

Even to start with a cold opener,

where it's like,

you know,

something completely tangent,

nothing to do with the pitch,

but they're like,

wait a sec,

this guy's talking about,

I don't know,

medical science.

Okay.

Weird.

And then dovetail it back to the content.

Oh,

okay.

Wow.

Great.

Now,

you know what I mean?

That just draws someone in,

for example.

There's many things you can do.

The point is,

people don't want to do that.

They actually want to assimilate and fit in.

That's really dangerous,

right?

That's interesting.

You become one of many.

Very,

very forgettable,

not very confident,

not that likable,

not that authentic,

and hard to influence,

right?

So again,

you kind of miss the claim methodology,

if you assimilate.

The claim methodology,

is that a chapter in this book?

It's actually the five sections in the book.

So it's kind of the foundation of the book.

Basically,

I do this course for executives.

I have 30 modules that I do with executives.

And I basically wrote those 30 modules out

as 30 chapters.

My publisher was like,

yeah,

you're dreaming.

That's not a book.

That's like a sort of,

I don't even know what it is.

Go and write a book.

So then I thought,

right,

okay.

Went back to sort of the start

and just thought about those 30 modules

and tried to organize them and realized,

holy crap,

they actually fit,

you know,

five fit into confidence,

five fit into likability,

blah,

blah.

And that's where claim came from.

So it was literally from writing the book,

I discovered these sort of themes,

which then became the sections in the book.

And then I added a whole bunch of personal stuff in

and it became,

yeah,

a book rather than a sort of,

I don't know,

list of things to do.

It's very interesting

because like,

you know,

a lot of people I know,

they want to be liked.

They understand that I want to be liked.

Everyone actually wants to be liked.

So what they tend to do

when they walk in the room

and there might be the end of the day

and they can see everybody's really tired

and I've already heard 30 of these pitches for the day.

They,

instead of trying to be liked,

instead of trying to be actually liked

because they are,

the audience becomes interested

or they admire something

or whatever the case may be,

they try to be not disliked.

Yeah,

I get it.

Exactly.

That's interesting.

Think about your five best friends.

I bet you,

some of them make you feel self-conscious

and uncomfortable because they're so smart

or,

you know,

make you laugh.

Do you know what I mean?

Like they don't fit in.

Well,

my friends think about,

you know,

I ask that question to a lot of people.

Think about your five best friends.

They're not people that just fit in

and always say yes

and just do what you do.

Usually they stretch you.

They test you.

They make you feel uncomfortable.

They question what you're about.

They make you question what you're about.

That's the type of likability we're talking about, right?

It's not about fitting in.

It's actually about sticking out

but being interesting,

intriguing,

funny,

curious,

all those things.

That's true likability.

It's not about being friends, right?

Like we're talking about business

in most of my coaching

and most of the book.

You don't need to be friends with your client

but you need to be fascinating, right?

You need to be interesting.

You need to be unforgettable

and curious

and all those other things.

So that's the type of likability.

But I actually love that distinction.

Don't aim to be not disliked

because that's actually not what it's about

because you will.

You become just pretty...

Or you become one of the 30.

But just wet.

Yeah, yeah.

Wet and in the middle, right?

Like you actually want

to be pointy

and have levels of extreme.

Without being a pain in the arse.

Of course, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Everything's got to be sort of

tapered with common sense.

You also don't want to

exactly just be a pain.

But yeah, you do want to have edges

and stick out

like any great friend you have, right?

They've got edges.

That's what makes them interesting.

That's what he does.

Edges for days.

Edges for days.

I mean you might not like Trump

but you won't forget him.

Correct.

Correct.

And you know he's got an opinion.

You know he's going to say

what's on his mind.

They will offend you

and you'll probably laugh

about it later.

Exactly.

That's the type of likability

we're talking about.

Yeah.

I always gauge how well

I've gone in a conversation

along these lines

with my guests,

you being one of them today.

If they say to me,

it's funny,

I've never thought about that.

And you gave me one of those

about 15 minutes ago.

So that's important to me

because I want people to say that

I actually never thought

about that before.

Yep.

Or I find that interesting.

That's an interesting question.

Or can I go back to that question?

Because that's stuck in your mind.

And I didn't even realize.

Most of your questions

have been like that,

to be honest.

But I didn't realize.

I don't do it consciously.

I do it because I just like

that little reward.

So that feeds my reward center

in my brain.

Well, I think you're genuinely

interested, right?

Well, that's why I do this.

That's the difference.

Because I like to talk to people

about what shit they know

and I don't know.

And that's me with clients, right?

Like I actually care

about their business.

I'm interested in how

they make money, right?

It's not about me

and how I can be more creative.

It's like I want to understand you.

Like what could we do?

And then we'll get creative

and we'll come up with stuff.

But it's got to start

with real interest.

So yeah, man, I appreciate it.

I really love this book.

I'm going to read it.

I'm going to need you

to sign it for me.

Thank you, of course.

This is called

Winning the Room,

Public Speaking Skills

for Unforgettable Storytelling.

And it's by JP, Jonathan Pease.

He's not just a bookseller,

book writer,

but he's actually,

if I was to read out to you

and I'll do a little bit later,

but if I was to read out to you

his profile and his backstory,

but I'll be going on for 10 minutes.

He's doing some fantastic stuff.

I really appreciate my time

with you today.

It was a stroke of luck to meet you.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Lovely to meet you.

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