In a very reckless way. In ways that, not in a way that is, I guess, destructive. More
in a way that is naive.
Yeah, in other words, not properly assessing the risk is what you mean by the risk.
Correct.
Yeah, okay.
um do you do that yes or you did that i did that but now now i don't let's just go to maybe when
you're 18 17 whatever we what sort of were you and your brother getting up to what were you getting
up to my brother's a golden child right um okay the older child the golden but older child golden
olden he got and i love him i hope he's listening he will be listening to this look in the camera
or say i'm gonna drop some bombs now he got you know 99 8 whatever it was whatever every immigrant's
older child right yeah but i'm like i was like the proper drop kick though yeah like he got 90
whatever it was it was not enough for dad it was it was enough to get in unsw and study commerce
and just pretty hard to get into right um but it was enough for that not talking for six weeks
no remember that i very clearly remember that he had all made me when i got 40.35
it up completely dad was like cool didn't expect much anyway
which i guess sets the tone brother's a very successful investment banker
one of the best i'll give you a plug he's one of the best tech bankers in australia
very conservative with money sensible not reckless not naive and often wonder am i the way i am
because he is the way he is i'm my dad's i'm my dad's deathbed quite literally the last thing he
said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said
to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me
he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to
me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when
i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a
kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he
said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to
me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when i was a kid he said to me when
after Vincent.
Does your brother move his leg around like that all the time?
Is your brother fidgety like you are?
No, he doesn't have ADHD like I do.
Oh, you've got ADHD?
I haven't been diagnosed, but I'm certain I have.
Yeah, I mean, like I can just, the moment you sat down,
I noticed your foot moving up and down, and that's sort of my job.
By the way, I can do that sometimes myself, but I know I'm doing it,
I control it, but you're not even conscious of it,
which is an interesting thing.
Like I just wonder if your brother had the same.
I don't know if he moves his foot when he's in a meeting
or when he's in an interview,
but I can probably self-diagnose why I would be fidgeting.
It's because I'm usually in control, and in this situation right now,
I'm very vulnerable and I'm not in control.
You're driving.
I'm in the passenger seat right now.
I don't know which question you're going to drop on me next, right?
So, yeah, it's interesting.
We look at our siblings growing up and the relationships we have
with Matty Johns, which is on the show.
He was on the show recently.
He said something which has just burnt into my brain
and I haven't had a chance to unpack this with my brother yet.
So hopefully I'll unpack this before this airs,
is you don't have to like your siblings, but you have to love them.
I think that's an important point, by the way.
It's massive.
Very important.
It's huge.
You don't even have to like anyone.
You don't even have to like your mom and dad.
Because their personality is their personality.
You're not responsible for their personality.
You're not responsible for your brother's personality as it forms.
Correct.
Either genetically or socially.
But it's not a bad rule.
There's no reason to say you have to love them either.
But it's not a bad rule, a personal standard to have.
But you're going to still love them.
You're still going to be there.
Otherwise, you don't have a family at the end of the day.
And family is quite a powerful thing to have in your back pocket.
100%.
Particularly coming from your culture.
Yes.
My culture is the same.
Not all cultures are the same, but culturally it sort of helps us
fit into that culture and shows us a position of belonging,
where we belong in that culture.
Our culture always makes sure we love each other no matter what.
But at the same time, I don't have to like what you do.
Correct.
And once you become a father, you also get that same view of your own kids.
It's not so much that I don't like my brother.
I love him.
But the last five years has shown me that we are two very, very different men.
You don't have to be like your brother.
Correct.
Yeah.
But when you're growing up, and especially when he is seven years older,
he's the one who went to uni, works at the big investment bank,
successful, good human being, rock-solid human being.
But we don't look at the world the same.
Would you say you're not a rock-solid human being?
I am a rock-solid human being, but you can be different.
So having ADHD or thinking you have it,
or at least having that difficulty to perhaps stay still,
does that affect your schooling?
Like you wouldn't believe.
So you didn't fit in?
No.
I was in true ADHD or neurodivergence.
And I don't want to say this because it's so fucking trendy now.
Yeah, but it's-
Everyone's got ADHD, but I have very clear markers of when I hyperfixate
on some shit, I become really fucking good at it.
Yeah.
Like painfully good at it, whatever it may be, business.
But you have to like it though.
But I have to like it.
It has to be on my terms.
Yeah.
And you look back at school and these teachers that didn't understand that
and they couldn't, I guess, get down to my level
and communicate with me effectively.
And I live in the past.
What could have been if I had teachers that supported me?
For example, I liked my English teacher in year 11, Miss Mahoney,
and I came first in English.
Shit my pants when they announced it, you know, at the end of the year awards.
English, first place.
Vincent Wong.
All the boys were like, dude, this is a fucking stitch-up or what?
But I actually liked it.
I enjoyed the way that she communicated with me.
By the way, I was pretty much suspended at the beginning of every term,
end of every term.
For what?
Being a dickhead.
Throwing a shot put through a wall.
Letting off firecrackers in the fucking playground.
You name it.
Were you bored?
Yeah.
And just wanted to have something interesting or seeking attention?
I guess I just-
I enjoyed chaos.
It was the attention.
You look back now, it was definitely a level of attention.
But I guess I just did what I want.
How did you spend your days as a kid?
Like, let's say, let's go beyond when your dad used to take you to the TAB
and have some fish and chips.
But when you're sort of confined for yourself, what would you be doing?
Hustling.
Which means?
Going to the corner shop and asking, you know, the old Lebanese dude,
how much he got the chocolate Easter eggs for?
You know, those shitty ones that are wrapped in gold foil during Easter.
And asking him how much he bought them for.
I said, can I have them on tick?
What does that mean?
Get them like, I'm going to go sell them at school.
On credit?
On credit.
Right?
And he said they cost five cents each.
And I took them to school and sold them.
You know the ones that we put on the counter at the corner shop?
I sold for 20 cents.
4X, not bad, right?
For a kid.
You know, going to the TAB.
Had to shop in Villawood, that used to be near the Meccano set.
And walking in there, and my mate, at that point, Johnny Dunn,
he knew the code word to the guys that were there.
And in hindsight, I think they were bikers.
I'm pretty sure they were.
And you had to ask for bird scare to buy bungers and firecrackers and fireworks.
Because I think they got in from Nimbin back in the day.
And you walk in there and go, oh, you need bird scare.
That's the code word for fireworks and bungers, right?
Buy them.
You know, you used to buy a box of 50.
Firecrackers that were 25 bucks a box, sell them for two bucks each.
Not bad.
That's not bad.
Get busted in the playground in high school, though.
Selling them because-
Suspended.
Of course.
Worked at the paddle boats in Darling Harbour,
outside front of Seagull World back in the day.
Remember the paddle boats there?
That was me.
And then realised, you know, there was a lady walking around
and selling glow sticks and glasses and the stuff you put around.
You know, the stuff you snap and it glows.
I thought, fuck, I reckon I could walk around doing that stuff.
And went to this place in Seven Hills.
I think they're still there.
I'm pretty sure they're still there.
25 years, 20 years later, I think they're still there.
Place in Seven Hills.
Got a train, went to Golo in Auburn and bought like two crates,
like clear crates and just walked them down the road.
Called a train to Seven Hills, loaded up with just random shit.
All the money I had from paddle boats, cash money.
Went and bought, you know, glow sticks, whatever it was.
And me and my mate.
Matthew, back in the day, one of my childhood friends,
we used to just go walk around Australia Day.
There was fireworks, box, like whatever, whatever the events were.
It was just 10 bucks, 20 bucks.
And then I learnt about this thing, which to this day in my current business,
I still have to deal with the Sydney Harbour Foreshore Authority.
Apparently you need a permit for things.
You don't just walk around selling stuff.
What did you learn from that about yourself?
Like what realisation did you have about yourself
and how has that translated in, say, to today's terms?
Just got to do what it takes, whatever it takes.
To live, to eat, to make money, to earn my own keep.
But it's not very, I don't mean sustainable in an environmental sense,
but in an economic sense.
It's absolutely not.
You keep chasing.
Transactional.
You just do this thing.
You've probably got to spend it.
Then you think, oh, fuck, what's the next thing?
It doesn't have any continuous life as a thing.
But who was going to teach me that as a kid?
See, because we didn't see your dad do it.
Actually, you saw your dad do what you were doing.
That's what I mean.
Yeah.
Go, for example, say, okay, dad, I'm going to go get a job like you.
I got a job.
I did go get a job.
I worked at the McDonald's in Olympic Park.
I've always had a job.
This was on top of the jobs.
Right.
I've had a job since I was before I was 14.
Same as your dad, though.
Had a job and then you did the hustle after.
Yeah, always.
Always trying to work out how I can make,
whenever I've been employed, it's always been,
how do I do more so that my employer can give me more?
Never resigning to the fact that it's like, no, you stay in your box.
That's your job.
You just do your job.
Hence why I haven't really worked for anyone exclusively for over 10 years now.
Just been in my own business, walking to the beat of my own drum.
Well, give me an example of some of the businesses that you've set up.
I mean, I guess, so you're 37 now.
Mm-hmm.
Last 10 years, 27.
So what was it that made you decide to go into a business
as opposed to these lots of little different things that you do,
like hustling and buying glow sticks and all that sort of stuff?
What was the moment when you thought, okay, now I'm going to go into business,
and what was that business?
Well, the first serious business in regards to money and revenue
would have been 2007.
I'd just finished my advanced diploma in real estate.
And then, because I fucked my HSC up so much,
I had to go the long way to uni because, God forbid, I didn't go to uni.
I had to go to uni.
I thought my parents at that point would forget about it, right?
So went to TAFE.
Got my advanced diploma with distinction in real estate.
Probably should have done that in hindsight.
Should have just stuck with that.
But then used that as RPL to get into business at UTS.
A business degree.
A business degree at UTS.
A guy that got, 24 months prior, got 40 in his UAI.
Not bad, right?
Of course I found a way.
There's always a way, right?
You just need to go.
You just find the way.
And towards the end of that degree,
it was like literally right at the end of the degree,
a family friend said to my brother, not to me,
do you want to buy a boost juice?
There's one for sale in Penrith.
Franchise.
Yes.
And my brother said, do you want to run this thing after you finish uni?
I said, sure.
Cool.
Give it a crack.
Keep in mind, at that point, I'd already been hustling, if you will,
for such a long time.
How fucking hard can it be?
It's making some smoothies and ordering shit and selling.
It can't be that hard.
And it wasn't that hard.
So I did that for three, four years in Penrith.
And then from there,
I rolled into then my best mate, still to this day, said,
hey, do you want to buy into a fruit shop?
I was like, sure.
Fruit shop?
Fruit shop.
I was like, where?
Like, San Susie?
I was like, sure.
Know nothing about fucking fruit shops.
Like a fruit shop.
Of all things, right?
I was like, why did he want to go?
He's a fruto.
Right.
He's always been.
He left school in 15 when he was 15, and he was a fruto then.
And for me, why would I say, yes, the compulsion?
Bro, we earned $3.
$4,000 a week cash.
I was like, sounds good to me.
Whatever it is, I can do it.
Like, whatever it may be, I'm sure I can put a fucking apple on a stack.
Can't be that hard, right?
So I did that.
Well, can I just stop there?
I'm not a psychologist, I wouldn't know,
but what makes someone like you think, yeah, I can do that?
I don't know.
As opposed to other people who, no, it's just not my go.
Blind ignorance.
Is it ignorance, or is it just-
Back myself up.
Back myself up.
Back myself up.
Back myself up.
Back myself up.
Fearlessness, or what is it?
Recklessness, what's the deal?
It's probably a combination of all three.
It's probably a combination of all three.
Why not me?
Are you overconfident?
Yep.
Yep.
Learned to harness that in the past few years.
Yeah.
You can only do what you can do, and don't be stupid.
There's some things that you probably can do or try to do,
but you should outsource that to someone that does that every day.
Yeah.
You mean in terms of skill base?
Correct.
Yeah.
And what about in terms of, are you overconfident in terms of
the amount of time that you can spend on something?
In other words, you can take on 10 things which ordinarily would take you
someone 40 hours per thing, per week.
100%.
And there aren't 400 hours in a week, but you would take on overconfidence
in terms of the amount of time that you have?
I do that now.
I do that on the weekend.
I can get there for this time and do this and do that and overcommit.
So now I'm very much actively working on the boundaries of that.
So when you overcommit, what's the outcome?
What's the penalty that you've had to pay over these years?
You don't.
But when you do everything, you achieve not a whole lot.
Do you disappoint people?
I'd like to think not.
I've always liked to think no.
But in hindsight, it's funny.
My friend, me, who's been on your show, me or any of you on the show.
He's got the gym.
Ethos, yeah.
So I'm investing in that business as another thing because, you know,
I can do fucking everything, right?
He said something.
Probably, I'm going to say it was eight or nine months ago.
It's definitely this year.
He said something at a team meeting because I'm there to grow the business,
partnerships, whatever it may be.
He said one thing about, he said it to the team.
One thing about Vincent is, I'm trying not to swear.
He goes, this guy, he always gets it done.
It might be late, but it'll get done.
So in my mind, I've always come good.
The term is I always come good, whatever it may be.
I will always come good.
I've even come good on this thing.
I'm sitting here in front of Michael right now.
I sent you a DM in 2019 to come on the show.
I've closed the loop now.
But is that a transaction you just want to achieve?
Why?
What drives you?
I don't fucking know.
They're just transactions and there's just something I want to do.
I want to win.
Yeah, but you want to win in your own view.
Correct.
When you say what drives me, what do you mean?
Break that down.
What drives you to want to win?
Who are you winning against?
Myself.
Yeah, because I don't think there's anyone competing.
No, I thought there was.
Yeah.
I thought I was in some sort of this sort of fictitious race that the other people was.
I am my own worst enemy.
I am absolutely my own worst enemy.
But that one trait in itself is what makes me so fucking powerful at whatever I apply myself to.
So does that mean then you chase adventures?
No.
I'd say I'm inherently pretty, I wouldn't use the word lazy because by all definition,
if you look at me externally.
But I'm pretty chill.
But when I get interested in something or I want to achieve something, I will.
I'll find a way.
And people see that.
People that have been in my life long enough can see how time is relentless.
That'll be my next tattoo.
Time is relentless.
What do you mean by that?
It'll always fucking catch up.
It'll always catch up.
Time will always catch up.
If someone is pretending, they'll get found out.
Yeah.
If someone's doing the work in the background, they will be found out.
Found out isn't a negative or a positive term.
It's more about we live in a culture now.
I say this, I'm not an old man.
I'm only 37, but we live in a culture now where people can fucking fake it.
They just fake it.
Business coaches that have achieved nothing.
Gurus.
So many fucking gurus.
One thing Mira and I say, you know, business partner, one of my best friends, right?
You just got to eat shit.
You just have to fucking get so good at eating shit.
You just have to fucking get so good at eating shit.
That's it.
What does that mean then to you guys?
In business?
Eat shit.
Earn your keep.
Grind away.
Every fucking day.
Yeah.
Some days will be good.
Some days will be bad.
Some days will be catastrophically bad.
And once you, which is, we both understand this, but if I'm speaking on myself here is,
I don't want to be, you know, cliche or stereotypical.
It's like, you know, you can't have the good days without the bad days.
But it's so true.
Like, how much shit did you have to eat to sell Wizard the G?
Oh my God.
How much?
Like.
Yeah.
I can't.
I don't want to.
I'll sound like a whinger if I start talking about it.
Just truckloads.
Yeah.
I can only imagine.
Because my brother's in that world.
I've heard about fucking IPOs, M&A, all that shit that I don't fucking care about, by the way.
He asked me about my gym, which one of my business.
I remember.
I'll touch on this.
What's EBITDA?
I was like, I don't fucking know, bro.
How am I supposed to know?
He said, how do you not know?
You're in business.
How do you not know?
I'm like, dude.
Rent is $110,000 a year.
Membership's $97 a week.
This times this, minus what I got paid for to do the thing.
What's left over is mine.
That's how much I bank.
That's it.
Fucking EBITDA.
Earnings before interest and tax and fuck.
I didn't give a shit.
I don't care.
I don't care.
And this is when I say we're two different men.
It doesn't make me better or worse.
He lives in a rules-based world.
He complies.
Yeah, you don't.
I just don't.
Because if I lived in a rules-based world, I would currently be working.
And I don't say this.
It's a bit disparaging.
I would be probably a manager at McDonald's in Stanmore.
Nothing wrong with that.
That person, ironically, in the last three years,
has probably been a lot fucking happier than I've been.
Okay?
They rock up, do the shift, make the burgers, do the drive-through,
do the rostering, make sure people get paid,
make sure the fucking 14-year-old's not giving away free burgers to his mates.
That's the extent of their problems.
That's it.
They probably get paid, I'm going to say,
a hundred and something grand as a store manager.
There's no better or worse.
That's what I've learned.
There's no better or worse.
How many deals were on the table?
How many people who were, oh, we'll value at this.
We'll do this.
We'll raise cap at that.
We'll dilute at this.
And you're like, fuck yeah.
I've been eating shit all these years.
How many?
And it just fell through.
How many?
Heaps.
Fifty?
Heaps.
Fifty?
Hundreds?
Probably a hundred over the years, yeah.
Anytime your name has come up, whenever I've said Mark Burris,
you should listen to this podcast about him.
He's had this guest on.
And you're a very polarizing character.
Do you know that?
No.
A lot of people don't like you, apparently.
Yeah.
Do you know that?
Oh, I expect that.
I definitely know some people that don't like me.
I know who they are.
I reckon there's heaps that don't like you that you don't know,
and they don't even know why they don't like you.
Honestly.
Yeah, I get it.
They just heard it.
I've heard people.
I'm not going to name names, but I'm just going to say,
generally speaking, there are some camp,
there are people that are like, oh, yeah, Mark Burris,
I listen to this podcast.
But then there are people that, oh,
haven't heard good things about that guy.
Oh, be careful.
I'm like, fuck, I'm just telling you to listen to his podcast.
I'm not telling you to make love to him.
I'm literally just telling you this is a good episode he had a guest on.
That level of resilience that you had is why you,
by conventional standards, made it by money.
But you've also been very candid with your story about the marriages
you've had that have failed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
maybe not.
But I'd made those sacrifices out of naivety as opposed to anything else.
But you only learned this in hindsight.
You know, everything I realized in hindsight.
Right.
And I think that, you know, just on the, Richard Branson said something to me once,
very interesting.
He said, Mark.
Yeah.
He didn't call me Mark.
He didn't know me well enough to call me Mark.
He just happened to be sitting next to him on a plane.
He said, at the end of the day, when it comes to branding,
if 50% of the population like you and 50% of the population don't like you,
that's okay because it's the 50% who like you that matters.
You don't really care about the others.
Correct.
You're never going to get 100% of the population.
You'd better be 51% if possible, but it doesn't really matter.
Even if only 30% like you, that's a lot of people.
And if in terms of your business offering, whatever it is you're offering,
that's pretty good.
Yeah.
So it doesn't matter whether they like the name Wizard or Virgin.
Whatever it may be.
As long as they remember it.
That's all that matters.
As long as you're talking about me.
Some like.
Yeah.
And also if you're talking about me for good things,
then I'm ultimately providing fundamentally a good service.
You're okay.
I remember in 2004, because I was a footy fan growing up, still am now,
but not so much.
Unfortunately, I'm a Tigers man.
West Tigers.
West Tigers.
West Tigers.
I remember in high school seeing your stupid ads on TV,
the Spank the Beast ad.
Oh, you remember the ad?
I was like, fuck, that's wild.
But it probably resonated with me before I even realized.
We got told to take that off the television.
Of course you did.
The standards committee got us.
Yeah.
Imagine you put that ad up these days.
Oh, shit.
Forget about it.
You wouldn't even make it there.
It wouldn't even get past that.
There's no test now.
Well, no.
The people that made it for us wouldn't make it.
Yeah, because that's a whole different episode, Mark.
The world that we live in now about, you know, wokeism,
and anyway.
I mean, if you go onto YouTube, you can still see the Spank the Beast ads.
Yeah.
Wizards Spank the Beast.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It works.
It gets people talking, right?
I remember Ray Hadley bringing me up one day and he said,
mate, you've got to get that out of my, you've got to get that off free to air
and should only be there when adults are watching television,
no kids.
Can you get it off the show?
And I ended up doing it.
But the advertising standards committee or council,
whatever they call themselves, got me.
I'll never forget that.
But it was actually, I thought it was a funny ad.
But I just knew because it was funny.
I still remember it and it's 20 years down the track.
It was reckless in hindsight because I really didn't think it through.
But it worked.
It worked.
But it got you to that moment in the hotel room with the pizza.
Maybe.
It played a part.
Or everything plays a part.
Right.
I think everything plays a part.
So like if, did you ever do anything, Vincent, though, that given what you've said, okay,
do you, tell me what businesses, what things you've done in business and bring us, bring
me up to COVID period, for example.
Whereby you've had a crack, which is great, but it's, but you haven't done your homework
and it hasn't, it hasn't turned out the way you sort of dreamed it might.
It did work out during that time.
It did.
And then it came undone.
We'll tell you about that.
This is the, I guess, is the juicy part.
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So there was the booze juice.
That year it was 2007, 2010, 11.
Then there was the fruit shop.
So what happened to the booze juice?
You sell it or close it?
What happened?
I sold it to a family member.
Yep.
Yep.
So technically I haven't ever failed in business.
Okay.
So you sold the booze juice?
Yep.
In Penrith?
Yep.
Yeah.
Okay.
So then you had the fruit shop?
Yeah.
The fruit shop.
Yep.
Dealing with a bunch of Greeks, by the way.
Yeah.
I learned very, I learned, oh, mate, it's a different breed, the old generation of Greeks.
Yeah, yeah.
It really is a different breed.
Yeah.
You're not allowed to make money.
Only they're allowed to make money.
Yeah, correct.
Right?
So my best mate's Italian and my business partner's Italian.
And I learned all about, you know, Greek Easter and every Greek Easter they come in asking
for the flauna and they'd want to make the sureki.
And I was like, oh, this is awesome.
I'm Chinese.
I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but I'll figure it out.
I'll find the cheese guy that makes the cheese that you need to make your Easter bread.
So that's another example.
It's like, I had no idea.
Sureki, by the way, just for those people who live here, it's sort of a, it's for Greek
Easter, not for Australian Easter, but it's a different Easter, but it's sort of like
a woven.
It's like a woven glazed sweet bread type thing that you use with an egg on top in the
middle.
And you give it, you share it amongst your family.
It's a, it's a celebrated thing because probably speaking, you're not supposed to have anything
sweet for 40 days before Easter Sunday in the Greek, in the Greek calendar.
Yeah.
And on that day you go mental.
You go nuts.
And I learned all about that because being in San Susie, Greek Central, so many Greeks,
right?
I remember you used to buy, you know, the Donny cheese.
We had to sell it literally at a dollar below cost price.
Oh.
But in Coles, Ramgate, they sell it $17.99.
I'm like, fuck, all right, we'll lose a dollar.
And then you come and buy the Aglis olive oil.
And I'm like, fuck man, like this is business.
I just hope that you buy one pack of fucking pistachio nuts on your way out and I make
a dollar 80 on it.
Yeah, I might break even.
Right.
Or you don't buy when, you don't just come in and buy that stuff on special and then
go to the specials bin and just buy the broad beans when you're already losing $4 a kilo
on it.
So this is all business, right?
Then it was after that, I went and became, you know, National Salesman.
I was a marketing manager for a gym equipment company called Alpha Fit.
How I got there is interesting.
Once again, is that application of who I am as a human being is at the fruit shop.
Funny, when you were waking up at four o'clock in the morning and finishing at seven at
night, you don't go to the gym.
You just eat like a fucking fat degenerate.
You just have pasta and you've got Nonna bringing in big plates of pasta because she
wants a discount on her next purchase.
And you're just eating and you don't, and I got so fat.
Always been a problem.
Weight management, always been a problem.
And after we finish up with the fruit.
I, how much weight, how, how heavy would you have been at my peak?
Yeah.
118 kilos.
Shit.
No training, right?
No training.
And then I found, I found Jesus in CrossFit.
I joined that cult in 2012, 12, started in 12.
Of course, being me ADHD went fucking all in, all in.
Did you own a gym you made?
No.
No.
All in in the sense train.
All in in the sense train.
All in in the sense training.
All in in the sense training.
All in in the sense training.
All in in the sense training.
All in in the sense training.
All in in the sense training.
All in in the sense training.
First thing to kick it off, you know, of course, because I don't do things by halves,
book myself a one-way ticket to Thailand for four months.
It's like, fuck it.
See ya.
Right?
To do what?
Kickboxing.
Just to lose weight.
That, I look back now, I go, that's not normal.
No one just does that.
Not when you've got a long term.
It's not normal for you.
But normal for me.
I'm like, fuck, I'm going to do the thing.
I've got to go do it.
I'm just going to go do it.
That kicked off the fitness journey, if you will.
And this will bring us to current day almost.
The next eight years of that part.
Leaned in, started CrossFit.
Anytime I get involved in anything, I become really involved.
And I'm trying to.
It's an obsession.
Yeah.
It's not a bad thing.
But if you don't keep it in check, you can lose a lot of stuff in the process.
So started doing CrossFit.
Of course, I became one of the main guys at the gym.
You know, training, lifting.
Lifting heavy.
Competing.
Validation, in hindsight.
Just wanted to be the fucking cool guy, didn't I?
In hindsight.
And that kicked off.
Started training.
I'm talking about 10 times a week.
I'm talking two times a day.
Like an athlete almost.
Is this an example of hyper focus?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Have to get good at it.
I remember there have been countless, countless, countless times when I was at Rush Hour Fitness
in.
In, in Rattle Me at that point, it was 24 seven gym on a Friday or Saturday night, Ellen, my
wife and I, I'd be there.
I have to fucking power clean these hundred kilos.
I'm not leaving until we do.
She just put up with it.
I'm like, dude, it's fucking six o'clock on a Saturday.
Go home.
So I'm not leaving until I do it.
And of course, as human physiology would suggest, if you don't get it at six o'clock, you're
not going to get an 830, but I'm going to do it.
And that's, but you know, I ended up becoming one of the strongest dudes in my peer group.
Became super fit.
And of course that led into the next obsession was I'm going to open a gym.
Right?
And that time, since 2014, 2015, in that point, of course, I started working in the industry
as well because I'm a chameleon.
I'm just going to go into that.
Right?
And there's nothing wrong with doing that in life is you should be fluid in life.
But I've also realized I've probably done in my short 37 years on earth, I've done probably
10 times the amount of occupation and things in my life than the average normal person.
That was in a lifetime.
And then some, right?
And I think the gym thing was good.
I was working at, as I said, Alpha Fit, which is a national equipment supplier.
Like they make rigs and racks and barbells and bumpers, all the kind of stuff for strength
and conditioning.
And I then opened my own gym in 2016.
I go, fuck it, I'm going to do it myself.
And we opened up on Clarence Street, of course.
In the city.
In the city, right?
In Clarence Street.
Funny story.
When people tell you, you can't.
I remember Boxing Day 2015, you're sitting there talking shit with family members and
extended family.
I said, you know what?
Next year, I'm going to fucking open a gym, I reckon.
And I had a couple of family members there.
So doubtful.
How are you going to do that?
Like shitting on my dreams.
Just shitting.
Like absolutely shitting.
I had like a little 2D render, like a sketch on how it was going to be, where the treadmills
would be, where the rig and rack would be, where the sled track would be.
It was going to be just between 250 and 300 square meters, where the reception would
be.
I had it all fucking mapped out.
She's like, how are you going to do that?
Who are you?
In the city?
Fucking watch me.
And I did it.
So you opened up a gym?
Yeah.
It was fucking a good one, by the way.
What was it?
A brand?
Was it a-
It was called Serotonin.
Serotonin Strength and Fitness.
Got fucking sued.
Found out about Trademark real quick.
Some loony in Melbourne.
Shout out to her.
Owns a fucking cafe called Serotonin.
I was like, what?
She sued me.
Cease and desist.
I'm like, what the fuck's this?
I've got it in all classes and categories.
I'm like, you're a fucking cafe.
You're a vegan cafe.
You're a vegan cafe in Hawthorne.
I am a strength and conditioning gym in Sydney.
Okay.
Sure.
We'll change our name.
Turned out, my therapist says sometimes things, sometimes gifts are wrapped in shit.
Right?
I was like, okay.
Spoke to a lawyer.
Of course, my brother knows some of the best corporate lawyers in Australia.
They said, yeah.
Technically, she's just ... She goes, do you want to fight?
It's going to cost you like 15, 20 grand just for us to take this thing.
She'll probably win because she, by definition, can say that she has the intention to open
a gym under this brand and she'll win.
I was like, fuck, man.
Whatever.
Change the name.
Change it to Ion Training.
We opened the gym.
I had two business partners at the time.
Both played at the Roosters, by the way.
Both played at the Roosters.
Ex-players.
Ex-players.
Yeah.
I don't even remember.
For people that can afford premium training with seriously qualified coaches, we thought
we'd fill a gap for people that didn't want to pay ... Because realistically, you know
this.
If you want good results and you want ... If you want to basically be able to layer on
results week after week, you need to be intensity-wise, volume-wise, at least three times a week.
Three decent sessions a week, right?
And with somebody showing you what to do.
Correct.
Most people can't afford three PT sessions a week.
Even if you're earning 300, 400 grand a year, it's a lot of money.
Yeah.
It's 300, 400.
Yeah.
It's 300, 400 bucks a week, right?
It's just a lot of money.
Yeah.
It's after-tax dollars.
Exactly.
Of course you think like that.
So I thought, there has to be a way to do this, right?
We'll go one to six, as in ratio of one coach to six people, uber-premium facility, ridiculously
nice showers.
Of course I had to buy the Dyson hand dryer, because I always fucking wanted that thing,
right?
Did my ass on the fit-out.
In hindsight, I didn't.
In hindsight, beautiful thing, Mark Burris, if he comes in and trains, he doesn't fucking
know if it's a $4,000 treadmill or a 37.
He doesn't fucking give a shit.
As long as it's working.
He doesn't care.
I don't even care if it's secondhand.
You wouldn't even know.
You're not going to ask, right?
Yeah.
But for me, it was for me.
That's the thing.
It was for, I want to walk in and be like, this is the duck's nuts.
This is fucking the best flooring.
Anyway, it worked well.
The business went well until COVID.
Yeah.
Well, all gyms had a bit of a problem.
Yeah.
We had a problem around COVID.
You reckon?
Luckily, in 2019, I started a side business accidentally.
I'm not trying to be facetious when I say that.
It was literally by accident.
And it's currently my current business, which is Astute Agency.
Which is?
A marketing, it's so self-deprecating when you say just a marketing agency.
It's not just.
We work with some of the best brands in Australia, health and fitness, that wellness space.
My claim to fame was my Muscle Chef.
And helping them execute their growth, that growth phase was in 2019 and 2022.
The ambassador period, basically, or their first out of home campaign on TVs and buses.
This dumb fuck was just a PT and then somehow was rolling out with some of the biggest brands
in Australia.
How did you do that?
People still, I still ask myself, I'm like, well, I kind of have always, those skills
have always been within.
It's also just figuring it out.
And, but I started that accidentally during COVID.
Because one of my members, a good friend of mine, she became the marketing manager
there.
At where?
At Muscle Chef.
At Muscle Chef.
Yeah, yeah.
And she said, hey, the content that you do for the gym and like the other brands that
you got, because we collaborated with a lot of gym, a lot of brands, like Lululemon, Body
Science, Skills, Garmin, big brands that I, just like my dad back in the day, had no business
dealing with.
But they wanted to be associated with us.
Yeah.
So it's just me building a kick-ass facility where, you know, the boys, the blues, the
origin boys would come and do their pre-camp, Trav Toomer would come in and bring them in
for training.
And, you know, when the origin, like, I'm like, how did all this happen in my fucking
life?
Wasn't I at Fruto like five years ago?
And now you've got the origin boys here training when the Broncos came down, because in that
world where I was a national sales and marketing manager at AlphaFit, I met all the head of
performance.
It's funny how things just come back together, right?
It always comes back.
Well, you got to take the opportunity though.
Yeah.
Well, you also just have to be like, yeah, I'll figure it out.
I can do it.
I can do it.
And so the agency started because-
My accident.
100%.
So when I say that, people think I'm being a smart ass.
She literally said, hey, we really like the content that you do for the gym and the partnerships
you do with the brands.
Do you reckon you can do some short videos for our rebrand?
I was like, sure.
How much money you got?
I don't know.
She wanted you to produce the videos.
Yeah.
Get influencers.
Get influencers that we had, which were essentially my friends.
Just fellow business owners and as in the fitness industry.
Yep.
Influencers, if you will.
Right.
To talk about the quality of food.
The food.
And about that point it was for everybody, every goal, whatever it may be.
And that was the platform, man.
I think that was the impetus for me to go then, okay, cool.
This might be a thing.
This could be a thing.
So what's the agency called?
Astute.
A-S-T-U-T.
So Astute is a ... The Astute agency is like a digital content agency.
Influencer management.
Influencer management.
Yeah.
I guess I would like to now think it is marketing consulting.
I have brands and organizations that come to me for my advice.
I've always wanted to be on a board.
My brothers and I have been on a board.
I'm like, I guess I'm some sort of external board member, if you will.
Yeah.
The guy that wears t-shirts, because you'll never catch me wearing a suit.
It's better.
Better spot to be.
Right.
So if I could just ... COVID actually was good for you, but so-
It wasn't, because it fucked me up.
You went in the gym, it did.
Yeah, but also started drinking and doing drugs.
During the COVID period.
Correct.
Was that your attempt to run away from issues?
I don't know.
I'm still working through that.
Yeah.
I don't know.
But are you over that now?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And therapy.
Yeah.
And therapy is helping to do that?
Yeah.
But you still have the digital agency?
Yep.
Still doing that now.
That's where I'm going after this.
So does drugs and alcohol actually help you become more creative?
No.
So what ...
No, not for me.
It didn't.
No, no, no.
Okay.
So it was more like ... Because I mean, a lot of artists are creative.
I think I was just bored.
I'm not that ... So let's differentiate that, right?
I don't think ... I don't want to take credit from my team.
I'm not that creative.
I am.
I'm just a ringleader.
I'm just a guy that ... I like to take credit.
Yeah.
I like to say, I have to go and fish, and then when I bring the fish back, we gut it
and eat it together.
Because if I have ADHD, of course I can learn how to take a photo.
Of course I can learn how to record a video.
Of course I can learn how to do graphic design.
I have creative input, but I'm not ... I can't do the thing.
Yeah.
You're not the creator.
No.
But that's because I'm getting older and wiser and understanding that, sure, I could go on
masterclass.com or Teachable and YouTube and learn how to do what Jess or Jono or your team
do in recording and sound.
But that's not your time best spent.
It's not.
But ironically, the agency started because I did do that, because all the content I created
for the gym didn't go unnoticed in the world.
Right?
So, Astute now ...
Yeah.
Sort of what level of clients do you have?
You're still running Astute now?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Still active?
You've got the gym?
Still with the gym?
No.
So, gym, they wanted us to renew the gym.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they did the lease last year in August, and we're like, dude, there's no way we're
renewing on those terms if foot traffic is still ... At that point, 63% ...
Yeah.
Gyms are down every ...
Forget about it.
They haven't actually recovered.
They haven't recovered.
Most gyms have not recovered.
Right.
Which is something, if I'm on the mentor one day we can talk about how fucked up that was,
how poorly managed that was.
Ridiculous.
But, different conversation that one.
Every gym that I know, every gym owner, and big ones, none of them recovered.
I know.
It's just ...
I know.
It's not because people at home doing gym work at home.
gym work at home i just i don't know what the reason is but if you want to know the reason
it's a clusterfuck of lots of existential circumstances that have all culminated people
don't have money there's that i think people will never place the value on health and fitness that
we want i had this conversation with a friend a fellow business owner last thursday he came
into the office to catch up you can't pt people for more than 100 120 130 an hour
whereas everyone else can put their prices up but most importantly it's not it's it's almost
not feasible to open a gym in sydney let's put a print let's put a ring around it right your per
square meter is ridiculous rent that is correct relevant to yield right you're just like best
case i'm fucking nowhere backstreet of industrial area 350 a square call it 250 a square per square
meter do the math
300 squares 90 grand plus shares the outgoings how many members do you need then you got your
coaches yet everything's gone up including electricity all your outgoings gone up but
people aren't willing if i said to you mark right now how much is group fitness to you training per
week how much are you what do you think the market value is no idea because i don't train group
fitness 50 60 bucks per week give it to give it it's probably around that 60 bucks depending if
you're charging that and then you've got a you've got a very real issue on how many people you can
fit in a space if you fit too many people say there's too many people i'm not coming no i can't
book in so that's why the fitness industry it's it'll struggle i know i know guys that i literally
have been consulting in this space for the last 10 years and commercial gyms are starting to
pick back up you know with quadrant of nflg they're starting to pick back up harry at viva
leisure starting to pick back up but that's a property play this that's what underpins their
value is that if you're buying a block of land and in the long term paying it off with a profit
from the memberships sure but if you're paying three million bucks a year rent you're never
going to make money you just won't it's not possible right so there's that boy in some
respects the landlord did your favor yeah absolutely put me out of misery yeah yeah
quite literally because you had to make a call yeah and now if i look at your astute business
as your business and it's a digital marketing business content business content marketing
strategy and management the big thing is talent management and talent management because you
find the influences that you put into the content so if i look at vincent today what's the difference
between visit today and vincent when uh he was a young guy hustling around the joint i don't know
not much not much it's more structure well take me through it structure discipline growth slower
growth being less reckless taking a step back and just looking at things with a bigger lens
and not just the right now bro i'm going to make 30 grand or like next week for do this thing it's
like yeah but what's that going to cost in the long run so does that mean that vincent has learned how
to ask questions because before before not you wouldn't listen to anybody no one's going to ask
you the questions and you weren't asking yourself the questions is the difference between you know
you you still execute the same amount of energy and passion yep and uh mentality and uh probably
yeah like you
fixate in terms of execution that those things are okay but before you do these things today
you you now have someone's on your shoulder you're asking making him ask the questions
would that be yeah that's 100 that's 100 accurate that is absolutely you've absolutely nailed it but
if you go back now to the young kid who's probably not getting a lot of direction from his dad
would you say that you're still the same guy or have you had to force yourself to become someone
else
i've had to force myself to become someone else because i've gone through some shit in the last
two or three years where i've what gave you the resilience to get through it do i have a choice
yeah but some people don't have a choice well some people have no choice but they still
can't pull themselves through it i was standing on my balcony you know late last year six o'clock
in the morning drinking out of a bottle of fucking whiskey thinking this is really bad i'm not going
to talk about suicide and ideation and stuff i was like it's really fucking hard it's really
fucking hard it's really fucking hard it's really fucking hard it's really fucking hard
being me and then when you say that you're like hang on chill out dude you're level 13 in a fucking
apartment in darlinghurst overlooking the city it's not that bad it's not that bad worst case
scenario move back to auburn with your mom she'll make you some fucking noodles you got a bed there
it's all good yeah and by the way you could afford to buy the whiskey too right mccallan 15 by the
way out of the bottle and you're like but perspective and comparison is really dangerous too
it at that point in time felt really fucking bad for me and that was all that mattered
it doesn't matter it doesn't matter compared to everybody else yeah i agree that you're feeling
bad for yourself relative to yourself you know when parents say to kids my parents never said
this because my parents are asian parents and i ate everything but you know when you hear about
this just a joke like parents say to kids oh there are kids in africa that would kill to eat that
broccoli yeah but i'm not a fucking kid in africa there's no logic in it right yeah so it ultimately
matters on what you're going through at that point in time are you happy now i am yep happy
enough not even i wouldn't even qualify the same way that i'm just really fucking happy
i'm just happy to be here the last couple years has been so hard people don't know social media
is fucking awesome and will you continue on with your therapy absolutely it's part of therapy is
like this is a shit word i get it people think it's like it's
It's not a shit word.
It's a beautiful word, but there's definite connotation.
There's tone to it.
There's privilege to it.
There's you're not quite right.
There's trendiness.
Trendiness, ADHD.
Yeah, I'm seeing my therapist.
Yeah, I'm seeing my therapist.
I catch myself saying, I'm like, fuck, dude, you grew up in Auburn.
None of your fucking mates are going to therapists.
You're an idiot.
You sound like a fucking wanker.
But even the ADHD thing, we touch on that.
I know one of the guests which resonated so much is because
one of your guests, M. Rusciano, talked about being neurodivergent
and how she was treated at school.
And I was like, fuck, man, that was me.
That was me.
No one ever understood me, and I'm perfectly fine.
I'm sweet.
I'm a good dude.
I've got a lot of people that vouch for me, right?
And I'm like, I'm not a piece of shit.
I'm not a dickhead.
I'm a man of my word.
I always come good.
I've got my flaws.
We all do.
But I look, when you ask, am I happy?
I'm like, you have to.
At this point in time.
Yeah, because right now, as I sit here at 11.47 on Monday, on this day,
I've not been better in my entire fucking life.
It doesn't mean you won't get more happy.
It doesn't mean you won't have more happy days.
Without, once again, sounding like a fucking cliche,
you learn more on the way down than you do on the way up.
100%.
It certainly makes you appreciate a little bit of up when you get lots of downs.
You get to put it into perspective.
You know that kid that we talk about, therapist, calls him Little Vincent.
And I was like, I just want 100 grand in my bank account.
I just want to see 1-0-0, 0-0-0.
What about during COVID when the agency was going well, the gym was shut,
but still getting payout payments because our government is like that.
And I was looking at my ComSec account.
It was $256,000.
I looked at my crypto Coinbase account.
Coinbase.
CoinSpot, the Australian one.
156 grand.
Little Vincent wasn't even in the room anymore.
We forgot about that little guy, didn't you?
You made it, man.
Shouldn't you be happy?
You made it.
Go buy that Rolex you wanted.
Go buy that Huracan, the Lamborghini you wanted.
Go buy it.
Why weren't you happy?
Because no one told you how to be happy.
No one told you what happens when you get to the six figures.
No one tells you what, no one tells kids growing up,
out west, and for the wider audience,
kids that socioeconomically are disadvantaged.
Let's put a ring around that, right?
You're like, what is making it?
Oh, he's made it.
Or made it how?
Made it how?
He's got a Rolex and he's driving a fast car.
Wow.
But his wife doesn't fucking love him.
He's got a bad relationship with his mum.
I'm not talking about me personally.
I'm talking about in general, right?
And I think that because I can't,
I can't make absolute statements.
I can't say I've figured it out.
But because I'm at least cognizant and aware of that now,
I'm happy.
Is it about you sort of paying forward to kids out west,
wherever for that matter?
Whoever the fuck needs it.
It's not even kids.
It's just whoever is going through it.
Because by the way, I look at my nephews,
I don't want to get personal because my brother will get the shits.
Look, they are the opposite of how I grew up.
You know, they go to private school.
They've got it all.
Mum and dad.
I give them all the time.
But I now often wonder when I look at them,
they're so beautiful, these kids.
They're such fucking beautiful kids.
What's going to be your problem when you're 37?
What's going to be your thing?
What does privilege take away from people?
Because privilege has a cost.
Absolutely, it does.
And then you get the other side of people.
Like I've been, I know the bottom end of town,
the top end of town.
I associate with a lot of different people.
And I just think,
I can't name names because you probably know this dude.
Mega wealthy.
And you buy your son a secondhand Corolla
to drive into the mansion in the northern suburbs of Sydney.
Who are you trying to prove a point to when you do that?
I remember thinking that when I was in my early 20s,
we saw it unfold.
We're like, dude, you're worth like over a hundred million.
And you buy your son like a 16 grand Corolla.
Are you trying to prove a point to yourself or to him?
You couldn't buy him like,
a new Corolla?
You had to buy a secondhand one?
You're trying to like strip him of the privilege that he's got?
Because all we just said,
the only thing that matters is your reality.
And his reality, that kid was like,
You're being mean.
Yeah.
All my mates have nice cars.
Why treat me like a piece of shit?
Yeah.
Why being a scumbag?
Because I don't understand it.
Do you think he was right in doing that?
I don't know the answer to that, but it's one I struggle with many times over.
But,
one thing is for sure, what you say is correct.
Your kids, if they're all the other people around them,
I've got,
are getting the so-called privilege.
They're getting a new Corolla.
They don't understand.
They get very confused why you've done something.
And that can actually backfire against you.
You can actually alienate your relationship.
Yeah, absolutely.
It can work against you.
You can also alienate them, whether you mean it or not.
You can alienate them against their peer group.
Yeah, no, totally.
So it's a very difficult decision to make.
The long and short of it is this, I'm not a parent.
You are, you've got the, you've got the years on me.
I don't want to go too deep here, but there's no right or wrong is what I figured out.
Yeah.
Well, I think what is right or wrong is that you've got to be prepared to admit that you made a mistake and then be prepared to change it.
Yeah.
I mean, and, and you, I think what is the most important thing in these environments and you will experience when you have your own kids is that you have to be that person.
Who's prepared to say, should have got it wrong, make a call, but be the person to be prepared to say, should have got it wrong and then effectively pivot.
And, but then you're going to work out how you explain it to your kid.
So it doesn't look like you've capitulated.
Like in other words, you, you've got to be, make sure that your kid understands you, you commit to your decision, but at some stage you may just, your decision was incorrect and wasn't getting the outcome that you were hoping it was going to get.
And because it doesn't get.
And, or getting other outcomes that you didn't ever expect.
That's the most important thing, as opposed to saying, I'm capitulating, you know, like in other words, I'm not giving into you, your views, not you, my kid I'm talking about.
In my case, it'd be my grandkids, I guess, but I'm not giving in.
It's not me turning over to your decision or your thinking.
But what I'm going to say is my thinking was incorrect and didn't give it the outcome I was hoping.
But it may have been correct at that point in time.
Maybe, at that time it was the best I knew.
Yes.
It was correct at the time.
It was the best decision I could make at the time.
But now I know more.
That's not the outcome I wanted to get.
Well, they're not the outcomes I was expecting, as opposed to what I want to get.
They're not things I'm happy about.
I'm going to make a new decision.
And you, the son or the daughter, this is where you stand in relation to that.
Because it doesn't have to be a decision you share.
If I'm buying you a car, that's my decision.
It's not a decision you play a part in.
You know, that's my money.
I'm the dad.
I earned it.
I'm going to make the decision.
That I can afford or suits me best or I think is best under the circumstances for you and for me.
If it doesn't work for you, if it creates resentment or creates peer group pressure,
which creates a problem for my kid, then I've got to sit down with the kid and explain that.
I don't have to apologize.
Yep.
I just say, look, I made a call at the time because I thought this, this and this didn't work out that way.
Now I'm making a new decision.
Yeah.
If you can.
And as opposed to sticking your guns just for the fucking sake of it.
That's stupid.
That's stupid.
That's stupid.
But what you've just said in the last minute, that also directly transfers to business.
Yeah.
All the time.
It's the same.
It's the one and the same.
I've made so many fucking mistakes, Mark, in the last three years in business.
What I thought I knew.
It's like, but it's all I knew at the time.
Yeah.
It's all I knew at the time.
And what I've learned is through my therapist, just because you apologize, people don't owe you their forgiveness.
No, totally.
And nor do you have to get angry with it, aren't you?
Except it.
Apologize for you, not for them.
Yeah.
Because you're the one that has to walk around with it.
Yeah.
We all, all of us, we do.
Everything we do actually has to be selfish.
And I don't mean that in a bad way.
I know exactly what you mean.
But you do it for yourself.
And don't expect you're doing it for somebody else.
And they're not going to necessarily give you a hug or clap or cheer or shake your hand and say,
oh, thanks, I feel much better now.
They might.
It feels good when they do.
Yeah, they might.
And that's good.
But you're not doing it for them.
You're doing it for yourself.
And when you apologize, you're not doing it for them.
No, you're doing it for yourself.
Always.
Because that's just the thing that should be done.
Vincent, good on you, mate.
Pleasure to meet you.
Well done.
Thank you.
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