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I'm Mike Boris and this is Straight Talk.
The thing that I got out of,
Wayne, is that he's a very complex guy.
And the only way that he's been able to deal with
his childhood trauma was to be a coach.
He gives young footballers what he never had.
For a coach to stay successful for that length of time.
The bloke you write this book about is often referred to as the soup coach.
What is it about someone like him that makes him such a great character in rugby league?
He manages to earn their trust like no other coach.
That's what fascinated me,
that a 70-year-old man could somehow get,
that 20-year-old footballer, to trust him implicitly.
Do you have a technique or have you dug into how that works?
Wayne is almost like giving himself therapy by coaching these young blokes
to have a special sort of life and a special career because he didn't have that.
His father was just never there for the family
and they just didn't have two 20-cent pieces to rub together.
When Wayne was 12,
The father disappeared.
The father disappeared.
The Roosters against the Dragons.
The Roosters against the Dragons in 2010.
The Roosters maintaining a narrow lead at half-time.
Whatever Bennett did at half-time turned the game around.
Bennett walked into the room and said,
That's all he said.
That's all it took.
That's all it took.
Webby, uh, Andrew Webster.
What a straight talk, mate.
Thanks for having me, Mark.
It's been a long time coming.
We've been trying to get this stuff organised forever.
And it's around your book, and we'll talk about your book in a moment.
I want to just go back a little bit.
You're a journo at, um, with the Fairfax Group.
Your area of specialty is sport, in particular rugby league.
What about before that?
What, what, did, did you have to come through the ranks as a journalist?
Were you a political correspondent?
Oh, I did my cadetship in the Hunter Valley.
I went to university in Newcastle.
Um, I just, Mark, I didn't want to be a bricklayer like everyone else in my family.
So, uh, my father drilled that pretty hard into me from a very young age.
Knuckled down at school, knuckled down to your part-time job.
And I, I just sort of organically went towards writing and sport.
That's what I always wanted to write.
So, I went to uni in Newcastle and then did a cadetship at a, a small paper called the
Mail and Mercury, um, which was great because I got to do police rounds, court, um, everything,
council, and, but mainly, you know, always coming back to sport.
And I've, and I've, I always thought I'd grow up and be a serious journalist and do
something different, go into politics.
I just stayed in sport the whole time.
Now, you know, I've had, uh, sitting in that chair, the, the, um, you know, sometimes you're
a nemesis, sometimes he's your nemesis, uh, and you're his nemesis.
It's, um, Peter Flanis.
And we go, we go back to, uh, and you know, I like to go back to sort of understand who
I want to, you know, who Andrew Webster is.
Um, what's drives you?
Is it curiosity about people?
I'm always interested in people.
I think people is what drives me to tell stories about them, you know, and I always
find with footy or cricket or any sport, really, it's all about the individuals involved.
Um, and I really like the thing that I love about league in particular is that it's like
so many of these players come from, you know, pretty low socioeconomic backgrounds and,
and get to where they are.
And it's like, it's, it really sort of saves their life.
I like telling those stories, you know, and I just see the good that football does and
And I think it gets a, you know, it's easy to dismiss the best, the best advice I ever
got was from Roy Masters.
We're having a beer.
This would be 20 years ago.
Good old Roy and loves a schooner.
And I remember having a beer with him and he said, don't be too much of a smart ass
about players because you don't know what they put their body through every week.
And it was probably the best advice I ever got.
So I'm always conscious of what players put their, their,
their bodies and minds through to, to play every week.
And everyone can go, oh, you know, they get the million dollars and they get the life
and they get, you know, the, the glory, but you know, it's, there's a lot of hard work
there that people don't really understand.
And I like trying to tell the, to convey that in, in the stories I write.
Do you think that, uh, there's back at, if I, if I go back to the seventies and the glory
days of the Sydney Roosters, which, you know, we're not going to talk too much about that,
but the glory days in the mid seventies, there were a lot of characters.
In rugby league as players and as coaches, but as players as well.
Do you think there's as many characters around today?
I mean, I know you, you, you want to tell the stories of players that might've come from
a crappy background and decided, and they worked on their, their life and got a better
You know, the John's boys, there's a whole lot of them to, you know, examples of that
But what about the characters of rugby league players today compared to before?
Or is that not a fair comparison?
They're probably just not allowed to beat that.
You know, I think the media scrutiny is so much that,
you know, they're, they're too scared to be themselves a lot of the time, but I think
you're seeing more and more, I think social media has allowed them to take control of
Like players got their own podcast.
They've got, you know, they, they can, you look at someone like Latrell, Latrell always
sort of, you know, rightly or wrongly, if he wants to, to spin a message and he'll do
it through his, you know, through his, through his Instagram to 200,000 followers.
So I think athletes here are finding the power in their social media platforms, like they
In the US in particular, the last few years, like I think there's been a lag here with
Australian sports stars, but they're doing it more and more like they can call out a
journalist if they get it wrong, they can call out a club, you know, if they've done
the wrong thing by them.
So yeah, it's a, I think, I think the characters are there, but they're just, I think in a
lot of ways they were too scared to show themselves for a long time, but I think social media
is giving them that platform to, you know, unfiltered, give them exactly who they are.
Do you think it's who they are though, or do you think it's a more, the cause of their
So Latrell is a good example, but Luai is a good example, you know, like Luai is a character.
Yeah, but a lot of people.
People misunderstand him.
I, I sat down with him for a big interview before Origin One this year, and he was such
Like I, I find with all those Penrith guys, to me, that shows you how the media can manipulate
Like they just have painted Penrith as this, you know, this, this, this, this, this, this,
this, this, this.
You know, these young, arrogant, cocky side.
When if you actually go and talk to them, like, like Nathan Cleary is probably one of
the nicest blokes you'll ever meet, you know, he's a harmless kid, like, but he's been sort
of painted to be this really overconfident or, or, or, or just that all he's, you know,
he's just painted in the negative light and I can't, I can't work it out.
But anyway, like it's nearly like, because Penrith winners, it's nearly like Penrith's
been promoted as a boom box.
And it's pretty interesting, you know, rap, rappers.
Islanders hanging out together and arrogant against the rest of the, rest of the competition.
That's, that's how it looks to me.
That's how it looks.
But I don't think they are.
If you meet them, they're not that at all.
You know, they, they're always, I'll never forget when, when Luwai and Toto were first
picked for New South Wales.
Well, they were going and introducing themselves to Jonos.
You know, they, they've actually, there's a real humility there, you know, in that,
I just think sometimes the media can get it wrong.
And if you don't play ball with the media like certain journalists
or certain executives want you to, then they can turn a message
very quickly against you.
If I look back at Penrith in the 90s and I look at MG,
I look at Royce, to a lesser extent Freddie, and Brandy,
they were sort of – they weren't trendy.
They weren't – they were just hard-nosed, highly skilled footballers.
And I think Gus was a coach for a bit there.
If I look at Penrith today, Ivan's a nice bloke in the world,
literally one of the nicest guys you're ever going to meet.
And I think Nathan.
I've only met him once or twice.
Nathan's the same.
It looks like a totally different vibe coming out of Penrith today
compared to what it was in the 90s.
Is that just a reflection of Penrith's become richer and more wealthier
and a better-known joint?
I don't mean as a club, but as an area.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
But I also think it's just a reflection of rugby league.
We like to hate the winners.
We do hate to hate the winners.
Come on, you're a chook.
How much hate's been leveled at your club?
The problem is they still hate us and we didn't win
and people still hate South and they didn't win.
We both had shockers in 2023.
But now it doesn't mean that they move the hatred
from one club to another club.
But before that it was Melbourne.
But everyone still hates Melbourne.
So in other words, the hatred doesn't die.
We just had another club.
I hate all teams, particularly my own, the Dragons.
So how did you become a Dragons?
My father was, yeah.
I was born into it.
So because you are a Newcastle boy.
I grew up on the North Coast but I went to, yeah,
I spent a lot of time and went to uni in Newcastle.
So no one hates Newcastle.
Everyone loves Newcastle.
Dragons, you know, it's sort of a.
Do you have any empathy for us at all?
We feel sorry for them for sure.
I mean, we do feel sorry for the Dragons.
But I just, because I'm trying to work out,
I want to talk to you about characters because the bloke
you wrote this book about is one of the great characters
and the bloke where I first knew of you was probably,
one of the greatest characters that you wrote a book
about in 2009, 2010.
I remember reading the book.
It was a great read.
It was Jack Gibson.
One of the great characters of rugby league.
He sort of was cool but he wasn't cool.
He was, meant a few words, said very little,
had an unbelievably interesting backstory.
Which you managed to dig into and was a great, you know,
was a big part of Eastern Suburbs good years in the 70s.
Then went off to Parramatta after that.
Jack, in my money, was the original super coach,
which is the name of your book about Jack Gibson.
Maybe you can tell me why you want to write about,
why did you want to write about that particular character?
So with Jack, that book on Jack was my first book.
Was it an authorised biography?
So I wrote a story about Jack for the Herald around,
in 2008, when he, it was very obvious he was going to be coach of the century.
They were going to name the team of the century.
And his, I think it said so much about Jack's,
just the standing that Jack had, that no one,
no journalist or even people were too scared to like,
to delve into like his health at that time.
Why were they scared of Jack?
Because it was Jack.
Because he's an imposing character.
He wore the jackets.
He had like, he was, he was, you know, rugby league royalty.
But on the front.
But also, but also, as you said, he had, he had a backstory.
He was, he didn't suffer fools.
He was very intimidating.
And, but also I just think because of his stature,
that people weren't going to write about the fact that he was in a nursing home
suffering from dementia.
So I wrote a letter to Judy Gibson and said, look,
I really want to honour Jack with a piece around,
the, the team of the century.
And I went down and I met Judy and, and, and,
and John and the whole family and interviewed them and interviewed
Mast and a few others for this piece.
And then I wrote it, I wrote it.
And then soon after Jack died and I just had amassed so much
stuff, Mark, while doing that piece.
And I thought this guy deserves a proper autobiography where I
speak to as many people as possible.
I thought the book was very kind of him.
To be honest with you, but it was quite, from what I knew,
I mean, I knew Jack very well.
I also thought it was fairly accurate too, in terms of his backstory.
He had a, a very interesting backstory.
Like Jack, you said suffer fools, didn't suffer fools.
Jack was not just a football coach.
I mean, Jack worked on the doors.
He was a tough bastard and like didn't act tough, was tough and had did things
that were tough, like, you know, and you could get verification of people outside
That'll tell you.
That'll tell you what he allegedly did with his hands.
So nobody messed with him.
It was a time when you could get away with that sort of shit too.
You wouldn't get away with it today.
Well, he worked at what was, he worked on the, on Thomas too.
I bring in the, in the fifties, SP bookmaker.
But it was very much a reflection of stuff that happened in those days.
That's how life was.
It was a different sort of vibe to what it is today.
I mean, you wouldn't ever get it.
You wouldn't ever get a top coaching job if that was your backstory today,
because there'd be too many people coming after you and be,
everyone would be too scared to put you up there.
Because you go, wow, we're just, you know, like, I'm on the board of roosters.
We'd be getting nervous about that.
We'd be saying, well, hang on a minute.
What's going to be the blowback from the media?
What's going to be the blowback from our members?
What's going to be the blowback generally?
What are we, how are we going to look as a club?
What's going to do to the club's reputation?
Whereas, you know, back in the seventies, we had no problem with that.
And Jack was our coach, as you know.
But what is it about someone like him that makes him such a great character
I just, I think his backstory, you know, and also I think there's,
because the media has got such a big role in rugby league,
I think the way that an individual carries themselves publicly adds to that aura.
And Bennett's a great example of it.
Like I think him and Jack, who were very, very close, they had that,
like they just have a really different way of expressing themselves.
And Jack in particular,
there's a story that I loved about Jack, and this isn't to do with rugby league,
but when he was playing cricket for Waverley, fast bowler,
like the ball would hit the pads and he just, this is how Jack would appeal.
He'd turn around and look at the umpire and go, any news?
And the poor old umpire would be too scared not to give the batsman out.
But he just had a different way of phrasing things.
And, you know, I think that's the thing with Wayne.
Like they're just, they're engaging people and they're great.
They're money for a, for a,
an author or a, or a journalist.
what they say always is framed in a different way to most people.
Cause I think outside the square,
probably why they've been, you know, so successful.
Well, they, they give you the grab.
So, you know, Jack's.
They do it without even, but they do it without even meaning to.
You know, it's just, it's naturally, that's how they naturally speak.
And Wayne was much more,
is more economical in terms of what he'd say.
He wouldn't say much.
And by the way, he's very good at getting stuck into journalists.
was very economic in terms of, well, not economical.
He didn't say much, but when he did say something,
it was said in a way that you would never expect to hear it,
like done a good or something like that.
Like he, but he was extraordinarily intelligent.
Well, the great one, I know it's a cliche,
but I look for that Gibson book.
I talked to Sterlo about the kick to the seagulls line and,
and Sterlo had no idea what he was talking about at all.
He said, you know, I want you to kick to the seagulls today.
And, and he's Sterlo in the middle of the cricket ground on,
playing for Parramare and he looked up and there you saw the seagulls
at the other end of the field.
And he knew exactly what he meant, kick to space.
Cause that's where the seagulls are at the cricket ground.
Like it's just, you know, instead of saying kick to space,
kick to the seagulls, that's, I love that shit.
So like from, from a journo's point of view,
I just find that fascinating.
And, and in terms of characters then, I mean, you know, he,
this guy is often referred to as super coach as one of the super coaches.
And he's had a much longer,
life in footy than Jack ever did.
Like this guy's coached, I don't know.
Just over 50 years he's been a full-time coach.
And, but equally a big character, but different style to Jack.
Well, he doesn't drink and he doesn't bet.
He doesn't smoke, but.
He's not your typical Aussie bloke.
Like Jack sort of was.
He's not, but he did come.
I think the thing that I found with Wayne,
in writing this book is, and I always liked, I've always been,
I've never been, got on with Wayne at all.
We've always sort of had a bit of a love-hate relationship.
I wouldn't say it's been poisonous or anything like that,
but it was never, we were never close at all.
Wayne does play favourites with the media.
He manipulates the media.
He gets certain journalists to write stories that, you know,
he'll word up journos before a press conference.
He's not the only coach to do that, but he's, he's very,
very smart in manipulating the message about himself and his football team
if he needs that to be the case.
And even with this book, so the, the, the, the,
when I decided to do this book, the first book I was going to write,
well, the book I was going to write was about Jarrod Hayne.
So I'd been commissioned to write about Jarrod and just his rise and fall.
And it was the, he was before the courts, his sexual assault case.
And me and the publisher,
just decided that that's just going to be too tricky.
It was just, we just thought, let's keep away from this.
There's been too many, too many trials.
So we'll, we'll, we'll steer clear of it for the moment.
And the publisher said, who do you want to write about?
And I said, I want to write about Wayne.
I just find him so complex.
And he just got soused into that 21 grand final against Penrith.
And he is a bloke in his seventies, still coaching,
still at the top of his game.
And I wanted to explore that.
I knew his great backstory or sorry,
he's interesting backstory in that he's a self-made man because the father,
left, left the home when he was 12 and he just was determined to make
something of his life.
So I always knew there was a great story there to be told.
So he was the first, when I was signed the contract,
I'll never forget I signed the contract on the Friday and I called him
straight away because I wanted him.
It wasn't authorized.
It wasn't authorized, but I wanted him to hear it from me.
I said, look, I'm going to be writing a book about you.
And he, he went really quiet and he said, look, if you're going to do it,
I want you to do it right.
And I'll give you whatever you want.
You can ask me whatever you want.
I might stand in your way of talking to family, friends, whoever,
which is to his credit was great.
But I also felt from the beginning that he was trying to manipulate me.
You know, cause he wanted the story to be, you know,
as he wanted it to be.
But what's your response to that though?
So I just went and I went and did what a proper journalist should do.
And when got all the different, you know, sides of the story,
probably one of the great ones is one involving you when he went to the,
with the rooster.
So what did Nick tell you?
Nick told me a lot.
Nick's quoted, as you know.
It was me and Nick who did it.
Didn't Nick offer Wayne your unit?
Well, I'm not sure whether it was mine or his,
but we both were living down here at the Circular Quay.
And I had a unit in the toaster and Nick had a number of units in the toaster.
And I also had a unit up the road in the Aster.
I had three apartments in the Aster at the time,
which is like literally a hundred metres up the road.
And this was not authorised by Nick, but Nick did actually offer,
I wasn't sure whether I was going to move out of my place
and Wayne was going to move into my joint
or Nick was going to move out of one of his apartments
and Wayne was going to move in there.
And it was a good deal, by the way, because, you know,
we were offering good money.
And it was all after around the Ricky Stewart period.
And, you know, it was just time to make some money.
Things had to change.
We had to change.
And, you know, Nick and the board of the Roosters,
I was on the board at the time,
and we'd never been shy to make a change when it was time.
You know, things, sometimes you have to make changes.
You know, players, you know, give you a bit of pressure.
Parents give you pressure.
Playing managers give you a bit of pressure.
Results give you pressure.
Sponsors give you pressure.
So you have to respond.
You can't just sit there on your hands and do nothing.
And Wayne was a pretty obvious outcome for us, for us.
But it didn't work out too well.
It didn't work out too well for us.
But at the same time, it didn't work out too well for Wayne and the Broncos.
No, that's right.
This is a great example.
So I explored this in the book.
Wayne's version was that if it ever got out, as you know,
if it ever got made public.
Which is what he said to us.
Which is what he said.
Then the deal's off.
But what he doesn't, when he tells that story,
what he doesn't say is how the deal, like it got out,
and then he didn't, he called Brian Canavan, who was the CEO.
And he said, is the chairman still solid?
Those were his words to Canavan, who relayed that to Nick.
So in other words, the deal's still on.
We never, I can tell you now, neither one of us said a word to anybody.
I can tell you that.
So which makes me think why that got out.
But it wasn't another two weeks until he called Nick and said,
Well, he didn't actually call Nick.
He got someone to call.
He called Canavan.
And I think it was Bruce Hatcher, his accountant, who said, look,
if you're going to.
You tell Nick to his face.
Well, at least have the phone call.
And he was in the middle of, and during that period,
because he was in the, just to give you a back story,
I know it's in the book, but the back story was,
he didn't want to upset the club he was with,
because we're going through the semifinal period.
And he was going, and his side was in the semis.
They were in the semis.
And he didn't want his players going, well, hang on, what's going on?
So we weren't going to announce it, that's for sure.
And he didn't want to announce it, because it's not a good look.
But he always had the ability under his contract to terminate at the Broncos.
His ability to terminate.
And he'd been going, he'd been on shaky ground there for a couple of,
not shaky ground, but he'd been butting heads with management,
like Wayne does with every club he goes to.
He just, he needs to be the central figure in the club.
And CEOs and chairs don't usually like that.
Well, and we were pretty unhappy about it.
And of course, as a result of that, we ended up recruiting Opie.
And we recruited Freddie.
We had Anderson and Fittler.
Fittler being the, Freddie was his apprentice.
And Opie's first game, he had one marker.
The old one marker.
I'll never forget it.
And it wasn't good.
But so we, so I interviewed Bruno Cullen, who was the CEO of the Broncos at the time.
And he kept hearing about the Rooster stuff before it came out.
And Bruno was very, Bruno was great for this book.
He was very honest.
So I interviewed probably about 300 people for the book.
As many people on the record as I could, but a lot, you know, talked anonymously.
But that's, that's, that's what sources are.
Um, but most people went on the record to their credit and Bruno was one of them.
And I said, um, he said, I don't want you to tell me what Wayne's told you.
Cause I'll just tell you what I know.
I'll tell you the truth as I know.
And he said that he was calling Wayne for days going, I keep hearing you've done a deal
with the Roosters.
I keep hearing you've done a deal with the Roosters.
And then it came out.
He said, well, I guess you haven't done a deal with the Roosters.
So we didn't announce it though.
So it came out anyway.
And I think, I can't remember.
I think Nick might've been overseas at the time when it happened.
It wasn't a good outcome, but do you think that.
Nick confirmed it.
Buzz and James Hooper broke it for the Telegraph and Buzz called Nick in Greece.
By the way, Buzz and Nick weren't close then.
No, they weren't.
And so, so Buzz called Nick to confirm it and Nick did the old, what's that?
You're breaking up.
And, and, and Buzz was in the, in the, uh, the Telegraph newsroom and looked at Hooper
and said, it's happened.
Now, Wayne, if it was Wayne, that is a great example of manipulation.
Like, because, and there would have been some reason for it.
He would have had some reason why he's gone, hang on, I may, I've stuffed this up.
I made a mistake.
I'm not going to look like it was my mistake.
I'm going to blame somebody else, but to do it in such a way that it is, it's uncertain
as to where the error was and or who has put it out there into the media because he gave
That's, he's very clever.
He's very, he is very clever, but the suspicion is that Lachlan Murdoch.
Lachlan Murdoch took him to task and said, look, if you, if you go, then your legacy at
this club is going to be trashed.
Which, what happened?
But like, which, yeah, and that's exactly what happened.
Lachlan, I approached Lachlan.
Lachlan was one of the few people who didn't get back to me for the book.
Well, and that sort of makes sense too, though, from Lachlan's point of view, because, you
know, Wayne had a massive legacy at having been in the Broncos and, you know, you open
the door and go out.
So, especially if he comes to the Roosters, that's not a good look.
He said he regrets it though, Bennett.
He said he regretted not coming.
He quoted him saying that he would have liked to have, he loves big characters.
He loves big guys, you know.
He loved Porky Morgan.
He loved Tinkler.
He loves, you know, all these really big guys, which is, which I find also interesting in
itself because he's a kid from, from nothing, you know.
Can you tell me a little bit about him?
Give me a little bit of background.
I'm like, tell me about him.
Tell me about his backstory.
So, he's born near Warwick, New Year's Day, 1950.
And his father, Jim Bennett, was just a, he was a rogue.
He loved to drink, loved to gamble.
And there was hardly any money for the family.
Wayne was one of four children and they just didn't have two 20 cent pieces to rub together.
They were, they were broke.
And Bennett would often have to go to the pub to try and get, get the old man.
And it wasn't so much that he was a bad drunk.
He was just never there for, for the, for the, for the family.
And, and Wayne's mum, Patsy, was always the, the grown up adult in the relationship trying
to make things work.
And then when he was 12, he just disappeared.
When Wayne was 12.
The father disappeared.
The father, the father disappeared.
And he popped up a few times when Wayne started to make a name for himself as a player in
the Brisbane competition.
Um, there's a, there's a great anecdote about, a very sad anecdote, actually, where, where
Jim Bennett comes into the rooms after a game and says, where's my boy?
And Wayne hadn't seen him for, hadn't seen him for years.
And he just, Wayne was just sitting down and looked up to him and said, where the effing
hell have you been?
How old would Wayne be then?
Wayne would have been like 19, 20.
Like he just hadn't had any contact with, with the father at all.
Um, and I think, and Wayne was just determined not, he put it this way.
he, he wasn't so much determined not to be his father, but he just knew he had to go
to other men to try and, to, to, to style himself and basically build this persona of
who he, who he is.
Um, and the biggest influence on his life was his, was his, uh, his uncle, uh, Eddie
Brosnan, who was a hard copper, former kangaroos player, um, and just a really hard man.
And Wayne wanted to be like his uncle Eddie in the police force.
So what was it like as a footballer?
He played, he played for Queensland, um, and he played two matches in New Zealand for,
Um, Bob Fulton told me how Wayne, he did barely said a word the whole, the whole trip.
He just was so shy and unassuming.
He really comes out Mark in the book, just how introverted he is, just how uncomfortable
he is speaking in front of, um, the public.
Everyone seems to think, and I, I really, and I, I told him, I reckon there's, I said,
I said, I've seen you speak in front of a room of people.
He said, it's, it still doesn't come easy for him, but he said the first time he spoke
in front of a group of people, he's, he went to water.
Um, so he's just, he's always had to build himself into the, the man that he is.
And I, I, regardless of whether you like Bennett or not, I found that really interesting.
Well, that's, he became the author of his own life.
He just said, I'm not just gonna, you know, I could go and work in the meat works in Warwick
for the rest of my life and become an alcoholic like my old man, but I'm not going to be that.
It, it, it sort of, it is quite interesting in that, uh, particularly when you, I think
a lot of people think that Wayne Bennett in front of the media, it's more theater and
he's trying to build a character of himself.
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I think it's more theater now. I really do. But I think early on there, and I explore this in the
book, is like he just, he just naturally just said yes, no answers.
Because he didn't, he wasn't comfortable with a microphone under his nose.
Just shy. He was just shy. He's really shy. He's still shy now. Yeah, I found him, he's a,
he's a really strange cat. But that's what made him so interesting to ride. I went up to his farm
in Warwick to, and sat down with him and he was just so, I could see how nervous he, not so much
nervous, but there was a really, he's just so wary and standoffish and, you know, take your shoes off
and make sure that door's closed. We've got flies.
And I was going, oh, Jesus, it's going to be good. This is going to be, it's going to be a lot of fun.
As in like being a perfectionist?
Oh, he's just been, he's just been really standoffish with me. And he's just,
I don't know whether he was trying to put it on me or whether he was trying to be,
like, you know, try to, try to like maintain the power balance in his favor or what it was. But
then we sat down and I turned on the tape four hours nonstop. It was like, he just,
and gave me gold after gold after gold.
Was that because your approach? I mean, like, because normally,
I mean, four hours of Wayne talking would be, I can't imagine it. So is it, was that because of
the way you approached it or the questions you asked?
I went pretty hard. I went pretty hard. I didn't, I thought, well, look, I'm not going to get this
opportunity to sit down with him at his farm. So for, you know, that's not going to happen too
often. So I might as well, you know, hit him with all the big questions. And I did, and he answered
them so openly and thoroughly. And he, you know, he, the thing I really appreciated from Bennett
in the whole process, like he didn't have to talk to me at all. He didn't get a sack out of it. So
he could have just put all up all the walls, but he, he was very, he was very raw. Like he,
there was times there, Mark, where he, like, he'd be in tears on the phone to me a few times. Yeah.
Both of us in tears. Yeah. Just talking about his son, Justin, who's, who's, who's mentally
disabled after having a bad reaction to a injection when he was a baby. Yeah. There'd be times there
he'd be in tears about, about, about that, about his relationship breakdown, about his... With his
wife. With wife, with Trish. If I talk about Trish, he'd get very emotional. So it's, it's a pretty
raw, it was a raw process for sure. Yeah. And he doesn't come across to me as someone who would
show vulnerability. He did. He showed me vulnerability. And you talk about that in the
book. Very much so. Did you, do you have any difficulty getting many people to talk about him
outside of himself? Like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know,
like, people who know him or people who have had experiences with him? Ricky didn't. Ricky. Ricky
Stewart did. Ricky said a great quote. He said, I don't believe, this is years ago, he said, I don't
believe in Wayne Bennett guruism. Really? Yeah. Yeah. That's when, because Wayne can throw, as
you know, he can throw hand grenades. He likes to upset people. And I think when, when Ricky was
Australian coach, he, he had a fair bit to say. Remember Ricky replaced him in 05, at the end of
05, Australia lost that.
That tri-nations or four nations, tri-nations game in, against New Zealand and England. And, and
that's when Bennett did the run at the airport, at Brisbane airport. And, and Ricky took over. And I
think Wayne had a couple of little dog shots at him in the press. Well, Ricky doesn't stand back
either. No, Ricky's never, no, never, never. He's just doing his thing. He won't hold back. He does.
And, and he can carry a grudge. I hadn't noticed. Well, he doesn't forget. One of the reasons I love
Ricky, I mean, it could be the next book, but one of the reasons I love Ricky, he's got a lot of
energy. Because I just know what I'm going to get. And, and he's, he's, to me, he's one of the
big characters of rugby league today. And always, always has been.
I always say to Ricky, I said, you know what I love about you? You stab me in the front.
Well, you know where you stand with him.
Yeah, don't tell me.
You know, that's why I like him so much.
I used to train with him and Ronnie Palmer. We used to go to the gym together. And, and
Ronnie Palmer, the Bondi charmer. And, and we used to train at Whitworth Park. And it didn't matter
what day or what morning of the week it was, we'd go to the gym. Sticky would have a crack at,
he'd say, mate, what's happened to your biceps? Like literally the day after. He said,
haven't you been doing any training? Did you have enough protein? Did you eat? No,
last night he'd been on the drink. He would be sledging me from the moment I got in the gym.
And like, I'm not competing with him. Like we were mates. We're just, just hanging out here.
And, and Ronnie being a wonderful person as he like always had a laugh and just sort of would,
but he'd get you offside straight away and make you, actually make me train harder.
But that's his, that's his go.
And he was one of the greatest, genuinely greatest sledgers of all time. And still he is to this very
day. I can see a book coming, but I just want to go back to Bennett now. So it was unauthorized
and Bennett clearly was very open to you. People weren't, people were forthcoming in terms of
opinions about the guy. I mean, what he's like. If today you had to just summarize Wayne Bennett in
a, you know, two or three,
two sentences, now you know him better. What would you say about him?
Compared to before. Cause I mean, you would have a totally different view of him or didn't your view
I think he's, so I interviewed his daughter, Beth, who he's semi-estranged from since the marriage
split. I interviewed Trish and I interviewed Dale, his new partner. The thing that I got out of Wayne
is that he's a very complex, complex guy.
and Beth says a comment in that book, which I think resonates all the way through it. He never
dealt with his childhood trauma. He never dealt with what happened to him as a kid. And the only
way that he can, that he's been able to deal with the fact that the father was so harsh to the
family and particularly him. And he never had a male, um, you know, a dominant male figure in his
life was to be a, to, to be a coach and to coach young men, generations of young men. That's how
he's, that's how he's, you know, he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal
with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been
able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal with
the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that he's
been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal
with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that
he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal
with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that
he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal with the fact that he's been able to deal
He gives young footballers what he never had.
That's guidance and leadership and support.
But the flip side of that, Mark, and this is why he falls out with so many of his players,
is because that works to a point, but when they are no longer needed,
they get too old, they're out of form, whatever, he just cuts them loose.
So he gets them so close.
That's the way that he coaches.
That's the way that he goes about his business.
But when you're just the ruthlessness of football and professional sport,
he's got to cut them loose.
He's got separation issues, as Steve Renouf says to me.
But do you think he's just doing it in the way that's the most effective?
But that's the nature of the beast.
Yeah, I'm not going to sort of wrap you up in pillows and shit like that
and bullshit to you.
I'm just going to tell you straight, time's over.
We've had our time.
Because I want to talk to you.
A lot of them can't reconcile that because he's been so close to them
and such a father figure to them.
And then he goes, well, no, I'm not extending you.
And they'll go, well, hang on.
I thought you were going to look after me forever.
Do you think that's a dangerous thing for him to do then?
Because as you said right at the very beginning,
one of the things that fascinates you about rugby league players
is a lot of them come from average, ordinary,
or less than ordinary circumstances.
It could be parents, a problem.
Or poverty or immigrants into the country, et cetera,
running away from something.
Then in comes Wayne.
They become a bit beholden to him.
And at the same time, he's looking after them.
He's getting the best out of them, which is his game,
get the best out of a player.
But then he sort of cuts them loose.
Maybe not in a way that it's meant to be nasty,
but just time's over.
Is that a dangerous thing for a coach to be?
He's been so bloody successful, you know.
I don't think he knows any other way.
But apart from his success, what about the individual
that he's talking to?
I mean, like, so do you think that's a dangerous thing for players?
I would have thought players would understand
that that's the nature of the beast.
So do you think players know about Wayne's personality?
They know who we're talking about?
But he gets them so – he manages to earn their trust
like no other coach, really.
That's what I find fascinating, that he's been able to do that
through, like, as I said, he's been coaching for 50 years.
And he's just as relevant to, like, all those Souths blokes
in, you know, when he was there as he was to the teams
that he coached in Brisbane when he was, you know,
a young coach starting out.
Like, he's just always been – he's always been able
to earn that trust off them.
And I just – I think that's what fascinated me,
that a 70-year-old man could somehow get a 20-year-old footballer
Trust him implicitly.
I don't think that's easy to do.
But have you sort of dug into – did he have a technique
or have you dug into how that works?
There's a lot in there.
I talked to Alfie about it.
Like, he socialises with players a lot.
In what – like, by text or –
No, by going – he goes out with them.
Oh, he doesn't have a beer with them or something?
He won't have a beer.
He doesn't drink.
But he'll go out and he'll – it's almost a bit of a cliche.
Like, he always gravitates to the back of the bus, the team bus,
whether it's with cards.
Like, I've talked to Alfie about it.
I've talked to him about it at length.
Like, he'll just sidle up to someone and just ask a couple of questions
here or there and immediately get their trust because the great Wayne Bennett
wants to know about my family, wants to know about my mum and dad,
Johnny Elias tells a story in the book where – like, Johnny had come from Sydney
to play with South Magpies in the Brisbane competition.
And Johnny couldn't crack it with him at all.
And then one day after training, they all went out for pizza and they all sat down at
this restaurant and then the only seat available was next to Bennett.
And as soon as Johnny said that he – like, he didn't know his father, Bennett took him
under his wing because he didn't know his father himself.
Can I tell you something a bit funny?
You mentioned Johnny Elias.
His brother, Joe Elias, was my best friend at school.
Best friend at school.
And when Joe was 15, their dad died, passed away.
And Johnny was much younger.
And I actually – I was in maybe 18, 17, a little bit further.
And I coached Johnny Elias in J grade.
And this kid could do anything.
Like, he was athletic.
His athletic ability was unbelievable.
He could climb trees.
He could play in any position on the football field.
He was such a natural footballer.
But Johnny suffered from not having a father figure.
And his brother, Joe, had to leave school and start work.
To provide for the family.
They lived around the corner from me.
And I'll never forget that.
And I'll never forget Joe, his brother.
And I'll never forget the relationship, how Joe looked after his younger brother, Johnny,
and how much Johnny missed having a father figure in his life.
So that's very interesting you should say this to me.
Yeah, that's interesting that you should say that to me.
Like, it makes sense.
And that's what – that's – it's funny.
Like, all the way through this book, all the players he gravitates to the most
are the ones that didn't have a father.
Or had issues with their father.
So I reckon Wayne – and as I said, I talked to his daughter.
Wayne is almost like giving himself therapy by coaching these young blokes.
You know, coaching young men to be – to, you know, to have a special sort of life
and a special career because that's what he – you know, he didn't have that.
But then – but then he makes a fatal mistake at the end of the period of cutting them loose.
And he does it in a ruthless manner.
Like, he'll just – he'll just –
He'll just cut it off like that.
And it's sort of like a – the ultimate abandonment.
It's like – it's like I'm setting you up.
Well, maybe he's not doing it, but from their point of view, from the players' point of view.
Yeah, that's how they feel.
You brought me along and then you've cut me.
That's how they feel.
Some players have said that?
They talk about it in there.
There's a lot of them.
So who is the player?
And even – and even – not even so much that, like, I know when he got rid of Kevin Walters
and Gary Belcher at the end of the book.
And then he got rid of O5 as assistant coaches at the Broncos.
Like, he'd – they'd won premierships under him and been with – been with him and – for
a lot of – a lot of football.
And now they're there as assistant coaches and it's like, you're gone.
And Belcher was married to his daughter.
Ben Eichen or something.
Ben Eichen's married to Beth.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And does he talk to Ben anymore?
I think it's – it's a – it's a strange situation.
Like, I was very – like, his marriage breakdown was –
I told him and I told all of the Bennetts.
I said, I'm not going to – I'm not going to approach this in a gossipy way.
I don't think there's stuff there that I should go into at all.
I don't want to go through the nitty-gritty sort of details of – of how the relationship
ended and how hurt everybody is.
I didn't – I didn't think that served a purpose for this book.
To me, the thing that stood out the most from that was how people reacted to it.
Because, like, Wayne has been such a – you know, has moralised –
has focused on people and footballers and everyone else in the game for so long.
And then he – you know, he has an affair and leaves his wife.
And it was like everybody was, you know, climbed into him.
Yeah, that's amazing because there was a big sort of morality issue thrown around.
I mean – and by the way, he also sort of looked like he was a bit of a moralist himself.
You shouldn't – I don't – he didn't play up.
You know, there was nothing really going on about Wayne.
Wayne was just a straight shooter.
Went to work for all the accounts.
And then went – and, like, we never had any – we didn't participate in his personal
playground at all.
Because there was nothing there.
No, no, no, no, no.
He was all – and this is what – I also said this to him when I was exploring this
part of the book.
I said, but I can't – he didn't want me to touch on it at all.
And I said, Wayne, you know, you've been very open about your upbringing on Australian
You've talked about your two disabled children.
I said, I can't – I can't ignore that part of your private life.
That's, you know, that – if you're going to talk about that part of your private life,
then I can't just ignore the fact that, you know, you're a former Queensland Father
of the Year who –
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was the big – that was the – that was brought up regularly when he was – when
his relationship with Dale Cage came out.
I interviewed her.
Dale was quite interesting.
She had a lot to say about how, like, she claims the Broncos never accepted her.
Or Wayne at all after that – after they got together.
Sort of got outed.
Well, Wayne, you know, he coached lots of origin in Australia.
The Kangaroos, he coached – obviously went through brilliant periods with the Broncos.
Did he at any stage mention what were some of the greatest periods in his rugby league
coaching career in terms of success?
He talks – like, he loved all those Broncos years.
He loved Alfie and Kevvy.
You know, they were the two players he loved the most.
But I really think that he has got as much out of what he did with the Dolphins this year
as any time in his whole coaching career.
I think he got as much out of that because everyone was knocking him so hard, you might
And I remember Bennett would call me out of nowhere and he'd say – he'd go,
you know, see, they're into me again.
They keep saying I'm not going to – you know.
I'm going to fail.
They've been saying it my whole life.
I'll prove them wrong again.
And he genuinely hated not coaching in 2022.
But just talking to him throughout this season, the Dolphins' first season in the NRL, he
just seemed genuinely – I don't know, he just seemed so – relieved would be one word,
but I just think he felt so validated about his own coaching because he had all these – like,
there's no real superstars in that team.
Yeah, bloody good forward pack.
And to do what he – yeah, a good forward pack.
But to do what he did, I've got to say, he never seemed so happy than when they beat
the Roosters in the first round.
I couldn't believe it.
And it beat us well, too.
And Kifusi just laid into us.
They just literally laid into us.
He was very – he was very happy.
He said there were players in tears in the dressing rooms after that game.
And I just think throughout this year – I don't know.
I know they ran out of path because depth was always going to be an issue for the Dolphins,
but the fact that, yeah, that he'd taken a team that – and not like they didn't have
a – they had young hookers, young halves, so many injuries in those positions.
And to be in the top eight for the first half of the season in their inaugural season is
And they bought well for next year, too, especially in the forwards.
Did Wayne – does Wayne talk about – and I often wonder about this myself – that moment
when he bought Alfie Lange.
Did he go back to the state of origin?
What was that about?
Well, they needed a halfback.
And he needed – they lost the second game heavily, and he needed to change it up.
But as I reveal in the book, his first call wasn't to Alan Lange.
It was to Jason Smith.
Who was playing in the UK.
And Jason Smith's club had pushed back and said, no, we're not releasing him.
Where was Alan Lange, though?
He was in the UK, too, wasn't he?
He was playing at Warrington.
And the coach allowed him to go, but the board weren't that happy.
So that was sort of the end – like it cost Alfie basically his contract in the UK because
they – because he – they released him.
And then Warrington went – their season went south after that period.
So – but it was still the – so when he – when Bennett called him and Alfie famously
said, what took you so long?
It was all clandestine.
And it only happened.
Because the New South Wales Rugby League allowed it to happen, really.
They were going to push back on it and in the end allowed it to happen.
But, you know, I covered that game.
I don't think any of us ever thought in a million years that, you know, Lange would
do what he did that night.
And from about two minutes away.
But only someone, Alfie Lange, could do.
But I think that – that – that resolved as much as anything.
I think he felt very vindicated, Wayne.
Again, he felt like Wayne felt like he had something – it always looked like to me he
had something to do.
That I'm the smartest coach in the game.
And that this is an example of it.
But, of course, Gus then followed it up many – a few years later with Freddie.
And between those two.
And then they went head-to-head.
Which was fascinating in itself.
Can you – did you explore Phil Gould versus –
Bennett always said, you know, I never wanted to play Gus Ball.
He just thought –
What does that mean?
Like the way that Canterbury used to play.
Like the way the Warren Ryan and Phil Gould Canterbury teams basically in the –
and then Gus with Penrith.
He just – that's when Bennett's, you know, Broncos teams were coming through.
And he just – he wanted to have his own style, basically.
Which is easy to do, to play an attacking brand of football like those Broncos did.
Which is easy to do when you have the team that they had.
It was an unbelievable team.
Like it probably never would have been repeated.
I mean, I don't even think Penrith is sort of at that territory.
Their 93 team, they say their Broncos team is the best club team ever.
But that said, I reckon the 98 side was pretty special as well.
So he's had – and this is, again, I explore this too.
Like – and Brian Smith, former Roosters coach, he – I talked to Smithy quite a lot
throughout the Dragons periods and then when he was at the Roosters coaching against the
That game he lost.
That was the grand final that we were winning at halftime.
Whatever Bennett did at halftime, turned the game around.
They just came in there.
So he walked into the room.
Bennett walked into the room and said, you're not playing like St. George.
Play like St. George, you'll win the game.
That's all he said.
That's all the talk.
That's all the talk.
Because they turned the game around, they won the grand final.
That's all the talk.
So Wayne likes to say that story and I always thought that's bullshit.
There's got to be more – he must have had – he must have said more and all the players
Jamie Soward actually said – I thought – he goes, oh, is that it?
And then Soward on the – he got – they had a good time.
Great first set in the second half.
He got a great kick away and he said, we're back.
We're playing like St. George of the War again.
But meanwhile, in the Roosters dressing room, and Bennett likes to perpetuate this myth,
he says that Brian Smith was like, you know, making all these great sort of tactical –
Drawing stuff up on the board.
Up on the whiteboard and all that.
And I talked to players, including Braith, and asked – and I said, did Smithy confuse
the shit out of you in that second half?
I said, I think Wayne's made some poetic lights.
And so, Bennett himself there.
But Bennett – but Brian, to his credit, says – he goes, you know, Wayne's biggest
– it's easy to talk like that.
It's easy to have this, you know, as Ricky said, guruism about yourself when you've
got some star-studded, you know, players in your team.
So, that's what I think his premierships with St. George and what he did with the Dolphins
this year, you know, I think they're bigger coaching efforts – coaching successes,
and what he ever did at the Broncos.
If I look at Wayne, though, he sort of created a bit of a chasm in St. George when he left.
Then he did the same at Newcastle.
And to some extent, he did the same at Souths.
And he had players following him as well.
So, he took people with him.
And he also says, I'm not going to do – I'm not going to take any players from you.
And then he does.
And then there was one player in particular.
I can't remember who he was.
He went from Brisbane to Broncos to St. George, St. George to Newcastle.
And I felt sorry for Darius at the end of his career because I felt as though he was
an example of one of the ones who got abandoned.
Did you talk to Darius?
I did talk to Darius.
But I think – the thing is, though, I reckon – and even the Dragons.
Like, the Dragons are really upset that he left.
They were very upset with the players that he took.
And they were also very upset when he was leaving Newcastle.
I remember he basically had done a deal with the Dragons to return to Wollongong.
And then he didn't.
He did a deal with the Broncos at the last minute and left the Dragons high and dry.
Which is sort of what he did with us.
Which he did with you guys, yeah.
And you could say there's a –
There's a pattern.
There's a pattern.
I mean, you could say that.
What Wayne doing what's best for Wayne.
But Peter Dowso interviewed for the book.
He said all the good things that he did for our club outweigh the bad things when he left.
And I think that's, like, what happens with a lot of the relationships that he has, whether
it's players or former players.
Or CEOs or chairs or whatever.
Like, I think all the bad things that they've had – they've experienced with Wayne is
outdone by the good that he does for them.
Do you think, Webby, then, maybe part of Wayne's character is that – and one of the reasons
he gets attracted to join clubs with big characters, you know, like maybe one of the reasons why
he liked the idea of joining the Roosters with Nick there, et cetera, is because Wayne actually
not only wants to win the competition for the club and the players that he's coaching,
but he wants to compete.
He quite likes the intensity.
Why he takes on Phil Gould.
Why, you know, he loves – for example, he loved beating us.
He loved beating Trent Robinson in that game.
It wasn't just about Dolphins beating the Roosters, but I'm going to show this young bloke, this
coach, how to play a game.
Why I'm going to beat Brian Smith in 2010.
He's got a huge chip on his shoulder.
And I think that comes from his upbringing.
And he – this will get a few people offside.
I think it's a Queensland thing.
He explains this in the book.
Like, he just – he said – he wrote this in one of his earlier books, and I explored
it with him, and it's just like – and I think it was the whole – the Broncos mindset,
especially against all of those Sydney teams early on there.
It's like – it's a really weird thing that he said.
He said, you know, you don't have to be from Sydney to be special.
You don't have to be from Sydney to be somebody in this world.
I reckon that's an old Queensland thing.
For someone from country Queensland.
For someone from country Queensland growing up, you know, he had that chip on their shoulder,
and they love it.
And Wayne feeds right into the Queensland narrative as a character.
His whole character feeds right into the Queensland narrative.
Probably right now he's feeding right into the Dolphins.
He probably said, listen, you're all Johnny-come-latelys.
No one's giving you a chance.
We're from Queensland.
We're the next Brisbane side.
We're going to take Broncos down.
We're going to take the Roosters down.
We're going to beat everybody.
And he maybe got it into their head.
He is a – I don't blame him for doing the best for Wayne Bennett.
But, Bennett, like in business, CEOs do this shit all the time.
They're doing it all the time.
But they build the team up.
They build great collegiate sort of relationships.
They build great cultures.
But they're also doing it for themselves too.
They've got to earn the right amount of money.
And when the opportunity comes to sort of jump ship and go somewhere better,
maybe a better challenge, they do it.
I mean, Wayne is the – or he's a coach, but he's the CEO really of the team.
He's the ultimate CEO, Wayne.
And I don't blame him for these things.
I mean, I wouldn't employ him for those reasons.
But I don't blame him either.
I don't think it's a thing you can blame Wayne Bennett for,
for being Wayne Bennett and looking – doing the best for himself.
I just think he's – like as I've explained, like I think he just has always tried to –
like he was always told, you're not going to be anything.
And I think he's always chasing that, always chasing that,
trying to live up to that – like that reputation he's built for himself.
Do you think that Wayne Bennett is more liked or disliked?
Just from the general – the general people who think about him.
Like not necessarily players being involved, but just the general view.
That's a really interesting question.
I reckon – I think there's like begrudging respect.
Definitely respect.
There's definitely respect.
Whether he's liked or not, I still don't know if people aren't completely get him
or understand him.
I like to think with this book, it goes pretty close.
He kept always – he can be such a narcissist sometimes.
He's like, have you worked out who the real Wayne Bennett is yet?
Like he'd say that to me regularly.
That's fucking with you, though.
That's fucking with you.
That's like fucking with your brain.
Have you worked out who the real Wayne Bennett is?
I said, oh, I reckon I'm getting close.
And do you think Wayne really cares whether people like him or not?
He says he doesn't give a fuck.
He says it in the first chapter of the book.
He said, I want the book to be right.
I'll give you what you want.
And if people can make up their own mind, if they like me, I don't give a shit.
And why do you – why is the book called The Wolf You Feed?
So there's an old Cherokee saying about the good and the bad wolf in all of us.
The grandfather Cherokee talks to the young grandson about, you know, the two wolves,
the good and the bad.
And the grandson says, well, which one are you?
And he goes, the one you feed.
The good wolf or the bad wolf?
With Wayne, I think it's –
There's two – there's the man and there's the coach.
And that's – and the older that he gets, he's competing between those two wolves.
Is the man emerging?
No, I think it's the coach.
The coach is emerging.
I think he's – I don't – that's why I don't think he'll ever retire because I don't think he knows anything else.
Everything that Wayne Bennett is has wrapped up in him coaching football teams.
He'll do it until he's in the grave.
Well, Webby, I'm glad – I want you to sign this book for me, but I'm going to read this book.
If it's anything like the book you wrote on Jack Gibson, it's going to be a – to me, it's going to be an I-can't-put-it-down-style book.
I really appreciate coming in.
A real divisive character.
A real divisive character, but nonetheless extraordinarily interesting.
Thanks so much, Webby.
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