John Bertrand Achieving The Impossible

This week's conversation is with one of Australia's greatest ever sports people,

John Bertrand, the yachtsman who skippered Australia to victory in the 1983 America's Cup.

For 133 years, the Americans had successfully defended against challenges from across the world.

They were dominant like no team had ever been.

And the story of 1983 is one that is really hard to comprehend in some ways.

And you'll hear John's perspective of it in this chat, hearing him talk about trust

and understanding the way that he looks at leadership in the world of sport and collaboration.

It makes you really understand what happened in 1983 and their victory in a new light.

I found it incredibly fascinating and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

John's perspective to me is similar to a few people we've been collaborating with at Alita.

It's a business founded with my great friend, Matt Waterwitz.

It's a place for bespoke collaboration with incredible leaders from around the world,

like Mikel Arteta from Arsenal.

Socceroo John Aloisi, Eddie Jones from English Rugby, just to name a few.

Now, if you're interested in this space, you can find it at alitacollective.com.

You don't have to be a world-renowned sports person or a leader,

but we would encourage you to check it out, our signature Alita Connect program.

It gives you a great perspective on how people like John are leading in their world.

John Bertrand is an official legend of the Sport Australia Hall of Fame.

He's the Australian who skippered the wing-keeled Australia 2 to victory over the Americans.

Dennis Connors' liberty to win the 1983 America's Cup,

breaking 132 years of American domination,

and in the process, breaking the longest running record in the history of modern sport.

After being 3-1 down in the best of seven races,

and considered by many as the race of the century,

on September 27th, 1983, off Newport, Rhode Island,

John Bertrand and his crew pulled off arguably the greatest upset in modern Australian sporting history.

The victory was voted by the Confederation of Australian Sport,

as the greatest team performance in 200 years of Australian sport.

John, it's always a great pleasure to see you,

and I really appreciate you spending the time today.

Great pleasure, Luke.

I have to go back, John, to that day, the 27th of September, 1983,

and I remember it as crystal clear.

How old are you?

I was eight at that stage.

And I think I've shared this with you before,

but I remember Dad getting me out of bed,

get up, son, this is history being made,

Australia are going to win the America's Cup.

And I was just thinking about it today,

I can picture myself where we were in the lounge room,

and this tiny little TV,

and the whole family's glued around,

and how many people share,

because it's a moment where you knew where you were if you were old enough.

Is that shared with you a lot?

Oh, yeah.

Not so much what I was doing.

Yeah, that's right.

You were busy at the time.

Well, I met a bloke the other day,

he was in Sydney,

driving across Sydney Harbour Bridge,

and the traffic,

he told me,

the traffic stopped,

and people got out and hiking each other

on the bridge,

of the Sydney Harbour Bridge,

overlooking the Sydney Opera House.

It's like,

it just blows me away.

It's incredible, isn't it?

It is, isn't it?

So it stopped the Harbour Bridge at the time.

Yep.

Did you have a sense at the time,

John,

that this was as big as it was,

and that the whole world was watching?

No,

nor did we want to.

Yeah.

We got rid of all television sets,

all newspapers entering our compound in Newport,

Rhode Island,

and we went into our bubble.

Look,

we had a sense of it,

but we probably could visualise,

maybe,

a quarter of the,

really,

what was happening back home.

Yeah.

The crowds got big at the end,

didn't they?

And they came from everywhere around.

Australians came from everywhere,

didn't they,

for that final race,

when you look back.

That's right.

Yeah.

And the television,

you know,

crews,

they're flying stuff in from all around America.

You know,

the tower's going up,

the light's going on.

It was,

you know,

showtime.

And you have to go and watch Untold,

the race of the century,

Netflix documentary,

which has just been brought out recently.

It is brilliant.

John,

it brought it all back to life for me as an eight-year-old,

not really understanding the context.

And I love watching that documentary and seeing you in tears and your crew

and your great friends from that time reduced to tears looking at the

significance.

Can you explain for the next generation just how huge a challenge it was to

achieve what you did at that time?

The New York Club were ferocious defenders of the America's Cup.

They oozed style,

wealth,

this unbeatableness.

The U.S. had never lost.

It was the longest winning streak in sporting history for 132 years.

There's no question the emerging force was Dennis Conner.

It was the best sailor in the world.

He will do anything to win.

Are we floated on?

Three,

two,

one.

It was time that we had to do something radical.

It's a huge commitment.

We had to believe ourselves that we belong on the world stage.

I hadn't been the navigator on any of it,

but we were there for one reason,

to win.

All the work that we had done had paid huge dividends.

It was blazing.

What Australians really like is upsetting the upper echelon.

The whole of the world was watching this.

The greatest yacht race of the century.

I've never seen anything like this.

And a little country called Australia had the audacity to think that we could do it.

The American's Cup started off before the U.S. Civil War and the Americans successfully defended over 132 years.

So, you know, it's the longest running, you know, their domination was amazing for all different reasons,

but generally better organized.

But they had technology behind them.

You know, the U.S. surveyed the most powerful technical nation in the world and economically.

And it had never been done.

It was really, it was the Everest of sport.

It was a four-minute mile.

You know, I remember reading about Bannister.

He was told, and he was, I think, a medical student at Oxford University at the time.

And the best advice that they could get at that stage is the human heart was not powerful enough

to propel a man around the track in less than four minutes in a mile.

He didn't feel that that was the case.

But it was seen as an impossible barrier, a psychological, impossible, physical, medical barrier.

And at any rate, when he did that,

I think something in order of 10 different milers over the next six months

broke through that invisible barrier.

All of a sudden, it was gone.

So the psychology of it was huge.

And I'd already been involved in three losing America's Cup challenges before,

over a 12-year period.

So, you know, I could see, and having lived in the United States,

and it's interesting that for that Netflix thing, a documentary, actually,

he knows it pretty well.

It was a three-year production coming out of L.A.

And their research was amazing.

Most of the content I'd never seen before.

But having lived in the United States with my wife, Raza,

and going to MIT and Boston and, you know,

worked with the Americans and the professors and so on,

it became clear to me, you know, clearly,

a very, very motivated people, the Americans.

As I often say, the Americans will eat their,

their grandmothers if required, you know, with great respect.

But it's true, you know, highly competitive people.

So to knock the Yanks off was a big deal,

both from a technical point of view, as well as a sailing ability.

And the fact that it had never been done, like so many nations had tried,

and including Australia, and no one was able to achieve it.

These projects are generally built very simply around administration.

Management has to be world class.

The technology has to be world class.

And ultimately, the team has to be world class.

Same as Formula One motor racing that we're just discussing.

Any of those links weak and you can't play the game.

So ultimately, in that particular project,

we got those three links to be absolutely world class and we could play the game.

And John, to go into your time at MIT and,

and to just, it gives a window into your mindset and of your commitment to success is next,

next level.

And you're,

you're an engineer.

You did your thesis on the title was the optimum angle of attack for America's Cup sales.

So you had a pretty specific focus and then you won a scholarship to MIT and that was,

you know, reading about you improving your engineering.

But as you just described, then getting an understanding of the US psyche really,

really deeply.

And so having lost the America's Cup three times,

your fanaticism to go over and learn and better yourself.

But do you look back and can you,

can you relate to what that was like at the time?

Well,

I can now say it was very important to best way to describe it in the,

in Australia,

certainly in my era,

and we're talking about a long time ago when I was at Monash University,

you know,

the professor,

everything was,

you know,

professor,

this and professor that in at MIT,

it was all first name with the professors.

Uh,

and you know,

at Monash,

you know,

the people would have morning and afternoon tea and lunch.

Okay.

And at,

at MIT,

if you had a donut on the way through at lunch,

you're happy,

you're lucky,

you know,

it was a different world.

The speed of speed of getting stuff done was just another world.

You know,

MIT basically funded by outside sponsorship,

including the US military.

Whereas in Australia,

the big chunk of the funding comes from government.

So it's a different mentality altogether.

You know,

it's,

you've got to make stuff happen.

And so,

and we lived,

you know,

Raza and I,

we lived in the States for probably eight years over different periods.

So about time there and a great respect for,

you know,

you don't,

you don't back again,

you don't back against the Yanks.

They're highly mobile community.

They'll move from one country,

one,

I should say one city to another.

It's not like,

you know,

in Australia,

moving from Melbourne to Sydney or Sydney to Perth is a big deal.

Uh,

no,

because it's all about increasing your,

um,

your,

your net worth.

It's all about becoming millionaires and God bless them.

That's part of the deal.

And,

uh,

so having that sort of background and an understanding of having empathy for the Americans was extremely important.

And also their sense of self-confidence at the highest level,

the high five thing,

you know,

in Australia,

high five,

you don't really see it,

but we are highly competitive people,

but it's under the cover under the,

under the radar a little bit below,

you know,

you know that in your world of Australian rules football,

you know,

you're a lovely man,

but out on the field,

you're a bloody mongrel.

That's the reality that has to be the case.

Highly competitive individuals,

no difference in the U S except it's,

it's above the radar,

you know,

the high five,

the louder voices,

competitive environment.

You to break through the noise,

you've got to speak louder,

you know,

that's sort of not,

you know,

I just a broad brush approach.

So the net net is really not being put off by the U S of a,

you know,

the U S Navy and the coast guard.

Uh,

the high fives and the pumped up chest.

That's part of the deal that we had to overcome.

You know,

if we were to take on the Yanks,

it was like the pool deck of at the Olympic games,

you know,

the U S a U S a Australians up until Tokyo,

you know,

we're sort of,

we were quivering people in a corner.

So overcoming that is all part of the psyche of getting stuff done at the highest level.

And you're dealing now on the world stage.

There's no way to hide.

And in the U S you know,

with the America's cup,

ultimately there is no way to hide.

You've got to front up and that's the competition.

You can't change it.

And,

uh,

it's part of the deal.

You know,

it's a,

so the,

you know,

this game of stuff between your ears,

you know,

all about it being a highly competitive athlete in your former life.

Um,

and still are,

uh,

it's the,

um,

you know,

you,

you do the so-called 10,000 hours.

So preparation in our case is much more than that driven by passion to become good at what you're doing.

But ultimately between your ears is where the action is.

That's the difference between winning and losing.

And that was part of the mountain that we had to climb with this crazy thing called the America's cup.

That had never been won by any nation for over a century.

I love hearing you talk about the psychology of sport and I'll get to the way you imparting that on the culture of swimming in Australia with great success.

But to go into the detail a little bit,

you know,

you legendary,

even when you,

the arch nemesis,

uh,

Dennis Connor and,

and even the handshake,

you wanted to make sure your handshake was over the top of his handshake and you went to great lengths.

Am I correct in understanding the boxing kangaroo flag was a creation of you and your crew in lots of ways and having that flying on the boat because you wanted a powerful symbol and even having men at work down,

not having a music track.

That was a powerful,

strong tech.

That,

that was the sort of detail you went into.

Yeah.

To create that psyche to overcome the Americans.

Yes.

Is that all correct?

Yes,

it's totally correct.

So you,

when you study us humans,

when being,

when we've gone to war over the last 1000 years,

typically we go to war and I've never been to war,

so I never want to,

but we've gone to war typically with symbols,

uh,

flags and music.

So we create our own battle flag and that was a boxing kangaroo flag,

red gloves for aggression.

Pumped up chest to take on the world.

When you look at the stance of the boxing kangaroo flag,

it's a,

it's,

it's ready to fight and the gloves are all about aggression.

So that was part of the,

you might say,

you know,

the thinking behind it.

And,

uh,

the men at work battle down under was our battle.

Him.

We bought the biggest loudspeakers we could.

And when we left the dock in Newport,

Rhode Island,

we had maximum volume on the,

on our tender black Swan men at work down under,

and the flag was broken out and we went,

you know,

we're off to war in the world of sport.

It's a,

it's brilliant.

And as I said,

I can't recommend highly enough to go and see it beautifully done via the

Netflix forum,

bring it all back to life.

They capture it incredibly well.

And as you said at the start of this conversation,

John,

you don't just do it on your own.

You needed to have the whole organization.

And there's some characters that I wanted to talk to you about that were

instrumental in it and get your reflections on it again,

if you don't mind Ben Lex,

and you described as the Leonardo da Vinci of Australia who designed that

famous wind kill,

which you weren't initially on board with at the start,

you had your reservations.

Can you,

can you tell us a bit about Ben and why that was so important?

Well,

Benny,

he was an orphan.

He went to school at nine and left at 12 and he was both

presumably unteachable.

And so he's never,

you know,

I have two degrees in engineering and I remember my professor at MIT saying,

you know,

involved advanced mathematics,

he said,

until you put a problem into an into an equation,

you can never solve it.

And it took me quite a long time working with people like Benny and Alan Bond to

understand that that's not the case.

This sense of intuition and gut feel as well as,

you know,

being students of their,

of their act area of activity and with driven by passion is really,

really powerful.

And women have a great sense of intuitive feel,

you know,

asking questions,

you know,

asking questions,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

you know,

us men look,

you know,

we can meet someone and we think they're a nice person and the women can figure it out

straight away that they're dickheads or not.

It's so true,

isn't it?

Yeah.

And anytime I've got that wrong in my life,

my wife's always been right.

Yep.

A hundred percent of the time.

Yep.

It's,

that's right.

So why is it so?

Well,

their brains are different.

They look at life differently.

They're through their own prisms.

They've,

you know,

they have different.

So this is all the power of my opinion,

sort of the lateral thinking or the intuitive field,

particularly,

you know,

women,

you know,

Raza drives me nuts.

She,

I give her a little bit information.

She's straight onto it and she's adding value before I can even finish what I'm talking

about.

And,

um,

but the point is,

is that Benny was a little bit like that.

Okay.

So he had this intuitive feel,

but for every 10 ideas,

eight would be crazy,

but two of them were,

gee,

you know,

really interesting.

Benny was a student of life and he was a student of nature.

Uh,

and,

uh,

he knew it was different.

For example,

and this is true to wash his clothes.

He'd go into the shower and scrub with his clothes on.

Right.

And in some cases up in Sydney,

if the weather was warm enough,

he'd just walk around until the clothes dry.

So we are talking about a different cat here.

That's a unique way to,

uh,

to get the clothes clean.

Yeah.

He was the godfather of our,

of our son,

Lucas.

He's now 48 years old.

So we're talking about a long time ago and he,

the man was brilliant.

You know,

the,

as I say,

you know,

he was my opinion.

He was the Leonardo,

Vinci of this country in terms of his,

uh,

you know,

his ability to just be out there.

And,

uh,

so he was the creator of this thing called the wing keel.

And when we first,

I first saw it,

you mentioned before I had reservations.

Absolutely.

Because I'd been involved with Ben's first project.

I was assistant designer straight out of MIT,

uh,

in 1974,

Southern cross.

And it was a dog.

The boat was slow.

And I,

I said,

Benny,

just give us something equal and we can play the game.

But for God's sake,

you know,

what are we doing with this stuff?

But at any rate,

I'm sure he manipulated the coefficients and the computer,

but he,

he said that this boat's going to be when the America's kept by half an hour,

every race,

you've got to love that confidence,

but to get back to the psyche,

John,

you know,

having the sheet around that wind kill and the mystique of what that created,

uh,

it was clearly a fast boat and,

and had some advantages,

but playing back into you and getting the psychology,

it spooked me.

The Americans a bit,

didn't it?

The fact that there was something mysterious going on as well.

Was that a big part of it was in the end,

we didn't realize how big a deal it was going to be,

but in looking back on their decision-making under extreme pressure,

the psychology,

the psychology of not knowing what they're racing against and Dennis Connor,

my,

my counterpart skipper,

the American defender,

he wrote a book called no excuses to lose,

which is all about if you're out fundraise and out research and out train,

relative to the opposition,

then there's no excuse.

And it's,

it's a damn good philosophy of life in many ways.

And,

uh,

so that was fine.

Now,

when loss ratio in,

cause we had to race against a whole bunch of other nations,

the Canadians and the Brits and the French Italians,

before we won the right to challenge for the,

for the America's cup in that period,

we,

I think we won a 48 out of 56 races over the period of summer,

five months of racing and wind loss ratio is very,

very high.

We had a terrific,

package,

not only the wing keel,

but the cell development,

a whole bunch of stuff such that we were world-class as it turns out.

And,

uh,

the net net of it is,

is that he,

you know,

in that final race,

uh,

which they call the race of the century,

um,

they made more mistakes than we did.

Simple as that.

It's going to be Australia too.

They are going to win it.

Stand up Australia,

stand up Australia and give these boys a cheer.

We are looking for this.

Smoke it out.

They're about to do it.

They're about to cross the line.

They make a final move.

Yeah.

And,

uh,

almost the perfect,

uh,

race that you sailed in that last thing.

You were down 51 seconds in the final race,

which was the second biggest lead of any time throughout the seven race series.

And,

and as you said,

uh,

you didn't make a mistake and they did.

Can I ask you,

I've got a couple more characters to come back to that,

uh,

you know,

the Australian prime minister is one.

I don't want to talk to you about Alan Bond,

but what was your relationship like with Dennis?

Connor afterwards.

And as life has gone on,

uh,

was,

was there a friendship or was there respect?

What was it like?

Uh,

well,

respect clearly,

uh,

friendship,

you know,

us Australians have a different type of friendship than America.

Americans in a lot of cases is,

and again,

this is a broad brush,

uh,

in a U S it's more,

maybe considered more transactional.

Okay.

Is there an opportunity?

There was a deal there or whatever business relationship in Australia transcends that we,

uh,

it's just the way we,

we are and which I love.

Um,

but,

uh,

so with Dennis,

you know what,

we really haven't talked about the America's cup since that final race together when you've caught up.

Correct.

And I've raced against Dennis quite a lot,

uh,

in the actual class and they were,

you know,

highly competitive.

The,

the,

it doesn't matter where we are in the fleet.

We always kind of understand where the other bloke is.

Uh,

but you know,

this thing cuts deep,

you know,

it's a,

to lose,

uh,

you know,

it was to be the first to,

to lose was a big deal.

And,

uh,

and I,

and I fully respect and understand that.

It's an amazing,

uh,

amazing story and,

and a character like him.

It's sort of Shakespeare in,

in some ways,

isn't it?

You're very different,

but,

uh,

clearly that's lasted a lifetime.

Speaking of extraordinary care,

Alan Bond,

um,

you know,

again,

for those younger may not know legendary Australian business figure and,

you know,

had some tragedy late in life and people have their own judgments on that.

But really,

for him to fund,

you know,

cause it was the fourth boat that he'd fund.

It wasn't an America's cup.

So tell us about Alan Bond,

your relationship with him and how you,

how you view him.

Well,

I first met Alan,

uh,

when I got involved with that foot,

that America's cup way back in 1974 Southern cross.

And Benny was the designer.

So the way to,

uh,

to describe Alan was he,

who was a technically broke property developer out of Perth at that stage,

at that stage challenge,

having the audacity to challenge,

for the America's cup when he was 34 years old,

he had no idea what he was doing.

All right.

Uh,

and,

and nor did Benny and the boat,

you know,

was slow or whatever,

but you know,

we're not with great intent,

but we just,

we were not in the game.

Uh,

but you know what?

He kept coming back and back and back.

So he lost,

you know,

we lost 74.

I didn't,

I didn't go back in 1977.

I said,

it's amateur.

I got involved with the one,

a bronze medal at the Olympics in Montreal.

And then,

and then built our own business here in Australia,

1980 beaten again.

I was involved in,

as it turns out,

uh,

and then 83.

So you're talking about resilience and,

uh,

you know,

Alan and Alan's,

his motivation was different.

Everyone has a different reason for being involved with this crazy event.

His business was to move from a,

a,

a local trader to a global trader.

So the best way to describe,

to describe Alan is when we won,

he went straight to wall street.

He had every investment banker wanting to meet him and every Saudi Arabian Prince,

most importantly,

wanting to lend him money.

Show me the money.

And he had,

so there was,

there was method behind the,

uh,

the,

the alignment.

He was,

he was clear on.

And,

and,

and at a point in time,

I mean,

how big for those who don't understand Alan Bond bought everything.

He did.

He was into Chile.

He,

he controlled the telecommunications system in Chile.

Yeah.

Correct.

Not only Australia and London,

um,

and Rome,

he had major shopping centers outside of Rome that he was developing.

So give me a dollar and I'll make $2 on it on the way through and borrow a whole heap on the way as a result.

So he was amazing entrepreneur.

Was it money in the end?

No,

it was power.

It was influence for Alan.

There was no stopping him.

And it was like,

uh,

ultimately the whole thing blew apart,

uh,

you know,

with the financial,

he went to jail,

Alan Bond.

He did.

Yeah.

That's right.

How was that for you then to have this such a piece of history that you're so connected to it?

Was that a,

was that challenging?

I've been clearly,

I'm upsetting and challenging.

Yes.

Well,

I communicated with Alan in jail,

but typical of Bondy,

God bless him.

He had the,

uh,

he had the inmates organized and he's giving them lessons on business.

So there's no podcast in those days.

It was just one on one and he had his own clientele.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's an incredible part of the story.

Bob Hawke's the prime minister at the time.

And,

and this probably was the thing that transcended his prime ministership in lots of ways.

I mean,

Bob Hawke,

uh,

floated the dollar.

He did lots of things that strategically changed the course of Australian history,

but he's probably remembered for that famous quote more than anything.

I tell you what,

any boss who sacks anyone for not turning up the day is a bum.

For an Australian prime minister to say that makes me smile still to think about it.

Uh,

for,

for anyone around the world.

The Yanks,

they couldn't believe that the prime minister of a country of Australia would be saying

such outrageous stuff.

But what I loved in the documentary,

you shared a story for you.

It was even more powerful was that in the lead up to the final race,

he got on the phone and you,

I think you said to him,

we're going to do our best.

And,

and his response was,

what did he say back to you?

Well,

it was actually in person.

So as it turns out,

uh,

uh,

prime minister Hawke,

Bob Hawke and Paul Keating,

the tre the new treasurer,

newly,

uh,

elected,

uh,

you know,

uh,

in,

in,

in,

in the party,

the labor party of Australia,

they happened to be at an international monetary conference in Washington,

DC.

And,

uh,

as it turns out,

they were down at the boat for the first race of the America's cup.

And I remember,

uh,

you know,

uh,

uh,

Paul Keating in the background with his Australia to,

uh,

you know,

Australian wool jersey on.

So Bondi comes down to the boat.

This is the first race.

The America's cup.

So we'd gone through the trials,

the Louis Vuitton cup and so on.

And we won that.

And,

uh,

you know,

you can't practice this environments again,

a little bit like the MCG,

a hundred thousand people.

You can't,

you can't practice that environment and the,

and the intensity of it.

Well,

you can a little bit with Australian footy because you do get big crowds and you've whatever,

but this thing,

there's every four years,

it's a new world.

So you,

anyway,

so five minutes to nine,

we'd leave the boat,

leave the dock at nine o'clock plus or minus 30 seconds a minute.

Uh,

again,

a military operation.

And,

uh,

so their new prime minister came down to the boat and I was on the stern of the boat,

the back of the boat.

And,

uh,

and we're just about to break out the boxing kangaroo flag and the music was about to,

uh,

to arc up.

And he says,

he said,

I say to him,

well,

you know,

what do you say?

I said,

uh,

welcome Mr.

Prime minister.

And he's in his,

you know,

gravelly voice.

He says,

what do you say?

I said,

well,

Bob,

we'll give it our best shot.

He says,

bullshit.

He says,

destroy the bastards.

So that's,

you know,

the prime minister of our country,

you talk about a communication ability.

He was unbelievable.

And when he actually said,

and we,

we weren't here at the time,

we're half around the world,

you know,

Newport,

but anyone who sacks anyway to today,

anyone who sacks anyone for being late today is a bum.

That was not pre-rehearsed.

I know that.

And,

and,

and,

and,

and,

I know that.

It was typical of Hawke in his ability to capture the essence of the moment.

And that's communication.

You know,

that's leadership.

So what I learned from that,

I spent a little time with,

you know,

with Bob Hawke,

following over the years,

is his,

his great sense of leadership through being able to capture the essence of the time.

And that as an eight year old going back,

that was the thing you heard.

This is the prime minister of our country.

He's,

it's that big.

made it big for you, as you said, by an unrehearsed line that has stood the test of time, it captured

the moment, didn't it?

And he said, basically, all the great things, floating the dollar and deregulating the financial

system in this country, it's unbelievable what they achieved, he and Keating, the words

that were remembered was that line, yeah, yeah, and he's proud of it too.

Yeah, what a great chapter in our history of our country, and to have the Prime Minister

sum it up is equally as special, you know, I could talk for days about what you achieved

in 1983, but to see you overlay your leadership into every other area of your life, I find

equally fascinating, the Australian swim team is probably, from an Olympic point of

view, the most prestigious group that win medals, lost its way, only won gold in London

and had lots of culture.

And John Bertrand steps up to the plate, and you bring your psychology and your leadership

to Swimming Australia with great success, Tokyo's the most successful Olympics the Australian

swim team's ever had, can you tell us about how you went about instilling that in the

swim team?

Well, I was approached initially by one of the directors, Clem Doherty, former partner

of McKinsey's, who I knew previously, he asked me whether I'd consider taking on the

chairmanship role of Swimming Australia, because it was a very important role for me, and I

was, you know, it had its issues, and I initially said no, but anyway, he came back a few times

and eventually I said, I said, there, let's give this a shot, I didn't have any swimming

background at all, which was, as it turns out, an advantage, so I went in as a clean

skin, you might say, lots of politics, you know, these amateur organisations, great intent,

but so much, so many people, so much passion, lots of blood on the water, I can tell you,

and primarily...

it was dysfunctional when I first saw the whole thing, it lacked trust, which is so

important when your back's to the wall, and it lacked a vision, and so I came in as chair,

I said, yeah, this is of national importance, let's give this a shot, for better or worse,

so I embarked on the journey just after the London Olympics in 2013, and major, major

changes internally, but primarily, I guess, if you talk about the fact that I was a swimmer,

about the major positions and change, it was, and again, coming from the school of

hard knocks, and losing as well as a bit of winning with the World of America's Cup, part

of my sort of added value is this vision of, what's this game going to look like in 10

years' time, let's get there faster than anyone else in the world, okay, so take the blinkers

off, and it was based on my own experience with the Olympics, where you've every, the

Olympics is really the cutting edge of everything.

So, I was in the Olympics, I was in the Olympics, I was in the Olympics, I was in the Olympics,

there's no confusion, you're either, you either win or you're a bum, there's no confusion

out there, you know, I won the leather medal at the German Olympics, fourth place, it's

worse than last, and other than mum and the kids, nobody cares, okay, eventually I got

on the platform, on the podium, I won the bronze, you know, in Montreal, thank goodness,

you know, my God, the difference between fourth and third is unbelievable, so, you know, with

no money, no coaching, no anything, but at any rate, if you look at any four-year

period, you get improvement in performance, 100-meter sprint, throwing a javelin, interesting

enough, any 10 or 20, particularly 20-year period of the Olympic movement, a quantum

leap in performance, so the question is not why is it so, it's just that history tells

us that in 20 years' time, playing the game of this thing called the America's Cup will

be much further progressed than what it is now, AFL football, the business, the industry

of podcasting, what we're doing now, in 10 years' time.

You know, it's hard to imagine the way this thing will evolve, but it's here, it's fast,

it's growing.

Human endeavor, the human brain is amazing, you know, the suggestions is that we use maybe

nine or 10% of the potential of this incredible computer hanging between our ears, the brain,

the massive supercomputer, okay.

If we can move to 10 or 11, sorry, 11 or 12%, you have major, major breakthrough.

So when we look at human endeavor, Olympics, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's,

it's a big endeavor.

Olympics, you get an improvement in performance, there's no question, same analogy for this

crazy thing called the America's Cup.

So part of my, and, and same with swimming Australia, we do not know what freestyle will

look like in 10 years' time, that's gotta be the mentality.

Freestyle was originally called the Australian crawl.

In the late 20s, 1920s, other than the head going down, the human body getting stronger,

okay, nutrition, a whole bunch of stuff.

Nothing's changed.

so got to bring in the supercomputer computational flow dynamics cfd from the world of america's

cup let's start analyzing the human form going through this viscous fluid called water which

is just drag how do you actually reduce your drag forgetting about increasing the power with

strokes and so on what's this game going to look like in 10 years time so that was kind of my

craziness that i brought to the table of okay we think we we think we understand what world best

practice is led particularly by the united states the u.s swimming team domination all the way

through we think we understand that but that's fine how do we get there faster than anyone else

in the world you know that we that we know will be much further progressed than what it is now

so it was part of it the other way is this thing called trust again you know from your experience

you understand that you know in the backs to the wall you you're in the trenches you're fighting

for each other okay at that stage you're not fighting for your country you're fighting for

for your mates out on the field, in our case, America's Cup.

How do you build trust?

Well, trust comes from leadership, no question,

and then people picking up on it.

It's based around integrity and honesty, basic stuff.

We're not talking about rocket science here.

We're talking about transparency.

Whatever you say you do, no bullshit.

We're talking about having fun, particularly us Aussies.

We've got to have fun.

Because if you're asking people to be involved 7 by 24, not 9 to 5,

total commitment, then you're going to have fun.

It's got to be a blast to be involved with these like-minded people.

No dickheads, as the All Blacks say.

How good is that?

We understand what that means.

And when you start to bring a team together and leadership from a crazy person

like myself saying these sort of things repeatedly,

and you've got to say something at least three times before people can walk

away thinking, is that what he really said?

As long as you keep it simple as well, you can't get too complicated.

And incidentally, the Americans are very good at storytelling.

They're very good, in my opinion, communicating an idea.

That's one of their strengths.

So anyway, so once you start to build a team, a group of people,

where you are talking about trust and you have a vision that this is what the

game is, we think now, but where do we go?

Let's take the blinkers off.

Let's back people like Benny Lexen and others.

Where's this game going?

Then you start to build, you can build something extremely formidable.

You know, we do not know where business will be in 20 years' time.

You know, this advent of this fantastic new development called the internet,

global communication, the fact that this podcast is going global, you know,

and some of your business activities you're telling me, you know,

that's a global vision.

It's not local.

And so we're going to start to build a team.

We are now connected to the world and the speed of development is, you know,

we're on an asyntopic curve going north in human endeavor.

So when we're talking about what do I bring to the table, Luke,

it was really this whole issue of taking the blinkers off,

I know with no swimming background at all, and saying, okay,

let's reach for the stars.

As I used to say, let's release the beast.

Let's empower our young people in particular who have no fear and no scar tissue,

which can hold people back, and let's release the potential of what we've got here.

And that was really part of my, I guess, you know,

my added value with this thing called Swimming Australia Olympic Swim Team.

What a great success story too, John.

It's a masterclass this year and you talk about, you know,

it sounds simple when you articulate it, but as you said,

with the politics and the powers that be, you know,

and you see it when great success is in it, when organizations get that harmony.

And I love that idea, isn't it?

For all the endeavors that we've got, there's going to be quantum shifts,

isn't there, every 10 years.

How do we think about, you know, what it's going to look like

and then can we get there quicker is a worthwhile thing you can apply

to almost everything, can't you?

Everything, doesn't matter what.

Interesting enough, also through my relationship with the Chief of Army,

General Rick Burr, wonderful man, former head of SAS,

SAS operations, then head of all NATO special forces in Europe.

And we did the Kokoda track together.

Wonderful man called Ron Barassi, number 31.

One of the all-time great people.

And I know a lot of people on that group that did the track with you.

The great dipper and I think my father-in-law, David Shaw,

might have been part of that group.

And Rick was part of that.

He was then a colonel, Rick Burr.

And this was probably 17 years ago.

His career has been remarkable.

At any rate, Rick has become a wonderful, wonderful friend.

And so as a result, I was able to get the Australian Swim Program

introduced into our special forces military,

which was a really, again, benchmarking world best practice.

And they are in the business of trust.

Okay, talking to Rick, we walked the Kokoda track through Rick's eyes.

Okay.

18, 19-year-old kids defending this country.

No military backup.

No nothing.

Okay.

Fighting a much more superior force,

the Japanese coming through, highly trained, you know, jungled fighters.

Our guys had World War III, sorry, World War I issue 303 rifles.

No camouflage uniforms.

Nothing.

Okay.

And I said, you know, I remember Rick saying, you know,

at that stage, what are these people fighting for?

We're talking about trust here.

And he said, at that stage, it's not the country.

It's not even your family back home.

It's your mates in the trenches, in the water, you know,

take the boots off, the skin comes off on the boots,

put the boots back on and go back to help your mates.

So they, when we talk about trust, they, Rick recommended a book,

and I think, I'm not sure exactly the title,

but I think it's in the order of The Circle of Trust.

And that is you cannot build an organization beyond the perimeter of trust

that you have.

That you have within your organization.

So special forces like SAS commandos,

their operations can be halfway around the world.

If their perimeter doesn't extend to where their people are,

you don't have trust, you can't operate.

And I think that's a fascinating concept.

So they put, you know, they do their 10,000 hours plus plus

in terms of preparation or whatever.

But it gets back to this very, very simple thing,

deep down in the gut of trust without threat,

without an organization.

And it's not when the good times are on,

it's when the tough times, when your back's to the wall.

And can you, you know, do these, you know, can you,

then you're starting to get into a world of one plus one equals three.

And that's what a beautiful thing that is.

The story of Kokoda is, is, you know, such a legend,

mostly farm hands, as you said, ill-equipped,

the Japanese army at that stage hadn't ever been stopped in its tracks

and, you know, against all odds.

And then the thought of, you know,

if a bit of Papua New Guinea was taken,

then the ramifications were enormous, weren't they?

And so no wonder that's been a pilgrimage for Australians

to walk that track.

And the original army, sorry,

our main fighting force was over in the Middle East, okay?

Helping the Brits and our military people,

kids sent to Port Moresby, they were called the Chocos.

They were all the rejects and the idea was,

put them under pressure and they'll melt like chocolate. So there's no training.

They were sent over there to build an airport and then realised that the

Japanese were coming through the jungle over the Kokoda Track, through the

mountains. So there's just no training, no nothing. But what these kids

did for each other. Incredible story, isn't it? Incredible story

of leadership and you bringing that into swimming and changing the

culture and seeing that success, John. I love you keep coming back to trust.

It's where we hear a lot of, but when you implement it properly and

the trust of your crew in America's Cup, the trust that you build

in swimming that was dysfunctional at the time is a great story. Well, a comment

there is that when we're 3-1 down, okay, during the America's Cup, we had

to get from, so the Yanks got up to three all and all they had to do is win one

more race. So we came from 3-1 down to 3-2 to 3-3

and eventually won that final race.

The organisation was

extremely tight and trust was

total. So we were a hard, we were basically almost an

impossible organisation to kill off.

And the Yanks threw everything at us. But

this whole issue of we're pretty much impossible to kill off

as a competing organisation. That's pretty

formidable. And part of it, technology was there, etc.

But the guts,

the glue was this thing called the trust throughout the organisation for each

other. We're literally willing, and let's face it, it's only a sporting event,

but we're willing to die for each other.

On the eve of that last race, the Americans went in and Dennis Connors got

the ruling to be able to change the setup of their boat, which

it was a technicality that didn't feel like it was

in keeping with the spirit, but they were going to do anything

to the Americans. Their refusal to look, that would have unnerved,

you know, the team. So, you know, I think that's a big thing.

a lot of crews at that stage, knowing that they were going to be able to adjust their boat.

But as you said, the trust that your team had, you were

unable to be killed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're

as it turns out, we're pretty, it was a very, very good

team. There's no question about it. Yeah. John, we've been talking to different leaders

and your story is profound in Australian history

around what great leadership looks like in the current context. And it's a passion I was

sharing with you before for the world of a leader.

A leader, a business we've created where we're connecting different leaders together from around

the globe and trying to identify great leadership. And we see these common traits. I want to ask you

about some of them. We see all leaders really have a sense of self-leadership as

a place where you start. And does that term resonate with you, a

sense of self-leadership? What do you mean by that? For me, it means the idea

that if I'm going to be able to lead anyone else, I really have to live those values

and I need to live up to the same set of values that I want others to

do. So for me, it's about the daily routine.

And the habits is what I think self-leadership. It means different things to other people.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way, but primarily

we're talking about authenticity. This word authentic is

used a lot. But I think what you're saying, and I understand

that, I think it's, you know, you can't

bullshit people, you know. You know, we talked about

before Craig McRae, okay, the Collingwood coach.

Phenomenal story, this whole journey with

being a Collingwood supporter. But what you see with Craig is what you

get. There's no confusion there. It's not as if he's, you know,

he's moving from one idea to another. It's really, is it basic?

No, it's not basic because he's really, really, he's, you know, he's a student of life. He's always

learning. He's inquisitive. He's curious. It's wonderful stuff.

But authentic, absolutely. The bloke is authentic.

And people,

can figure that out real fast. At Harvard Business School, they have

an authentic leadership course, which has been extremely successful for

some of our people. And

you know, this whole issue of living the

values, yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yeah, I love you. You mentioned

Craig, and for those who don't follow Australian Ross football, we took a team that was 17th,

John's team. And I say to a lot of people, if you don't bear for Collingwood,

people won't understand. Everyone hates Collingwood, historically.

But he made everyone, I think, love and respect

just, as you said, purely with his authenticity and everything

he did and all his language and whatever the circumstances were.

You could just feel that pour out of him. And the playing group

behind, who on paper, John, you look at and think sort of talent for talent at the moment,

they're probably not at the level that they played at. But just his

incredible authenticity, I'm not surprised you referenced that.

Another dimension we see,

John, leaders are really conscious around how they positively impact other people

in their environments, you know, in real time. Have you thought

about that, that positive impact on people? No question. You know,

I've never seen a successful leader who's naturally negative,

you know, and a pessimist. Gee,

you know, this whole issue of seeing the best of any

situation and or figuring out how you get there, you know, natural

inclination, that's all part and parcel.

of leadership. So, you know, leadership, I think, very much into positive

frame of mind, its ability to communicate. No question about it. It's a

set of values that people can aspire to. You know, this new, you know,

the young people now, the values of leadership

extremely important. We see that in terms of the way the companies are and

you know, setting up their value propositions and so on. But it has to come from leaders.

Can't be just with a whole bunch of words that mean nothing. And

primarily it

you know, living, as I said, living the values

and you know, using this word called authentic, which is true

is part and parcel. Yeah, it's

what anyone, but particularly new generation

of people now figure out real fast. Yeah. I love what you said. You haven't

seen anyone really lead successfully with a negative mindset.

And as you get older in life, you sort of, there is, you go,

you gravitate towards the like, don't you?

And negative people become hard to, you know, authentically

we all have negative moments, which being authentic, as you said, is a big part of it. But I

love the way you said it. We see leaders are really conscious around

how they create and share their vision. And your examples

are a legend in our lifetime in Australia around having this vision

and firstly creating it and sharing it, particularly in America's Cup, but

certainly in swimming as well. Can you delve into sort of the micro, how you

went about creating that vision?

Oh, gee. Well, first of all, let me tell you a little story.

John Longley reminded me of a couple of years ago. He was a grinder

and an assistant manager on the dock with Warren Jones,

our America's Cup heavy. I'd forgotten what I

said, but anyway, he reminded me. He said that race

where we're so far behind, the final race, the race of the century,

we can hardly read their bloody numbers. That's how far back we were.

Apparently, I

said to the guys, I said, if we don't keep concentrating, we may lose

this race. So, you're talking about positive, crazy

positive at that stage. And it looked like the impossible challenge

at that stage. 99% of the world would

say it's impossible. Forget it. Turn the television set off or whatever. Go home.

So, anyway, apparently that's what I said. Well, that's

the mindset of a skipper of a boat that eventually we're able to be

successful. And a supreme optimist. A supreme optimist. Ask

Raza, my wife, you know, drives her nuts.

I've met the beautiful Raza before many times. Is that just, you can't help

but pivot towards the glass half full in everything? Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. And I think that's, you know, for goodness sake, if you've got, if you're going to pivot,

let's go positive. Let's get serious. We're only here for three score and ten or whatever.

That's a good life lesson there. You mentioned curiosity before.

We see leaders are really,

curiosity is a word that comes up a lot in leadership. And that's how a lot of leaders

approach their constant desire to learn and improve.

And that comes out in everything you say. Does curiosity resonate with you?

Oh, no question. One thing I think that I am

proud of is I'm a student of life.

I've always asked, I naturally love asking questions to find out more about

what people are doing, what things are happening. Apparently, you know, on the average

when kids are growing up, you know,

we've got a five-year-old granddaughter. And she said, Pop, so why is the sky blue?

Okay. And look at those birds. Why can't we fly like those birds?

Pretty beautiful questions, for goodness sake.

You know, the curiosity. And, but when

children get to about the age 14, they stop asking multiple

questions. And most people flatten off in their curve

and become just part of the society.

Where in a lot of cases, they buy a house and they sit there for the rest of their life

in Australia or whatever, compared to the curiosity

of leaders who are constantly learning. And I see

life and leadership as a lifelong journey. And I shouldn't say leadership because

I'm just saying life. Yeah. Okay. It's a lifelong journey of learning.

And, you know, Benny was, you know, Benny Lexon,

he was curious. Give you an example.

Sitting down,

sitting down on the beach at Manly up in Sydney when we

for the final America's Cup. And we're watching

birds, in this case seagulls, flock of seagulls landing and taking

off. A lot of wind, a lot of turbulence along the shore there.

And here's this man with supposedly no education,

three years, went to school at nine and left at 12. So, you know, for God's sake.

And here I am with, you know, a double degree and MIT and all the stuff.

And he's saying,

he's saying, John, look at the way these birds land.

There's, there's no crash landings. So we would have seen maybe the 20 or 30 seagulls

in a lot of wind. They land beautifully, beautifully every time. And he said,

look at the way they take off. Their takeoffs are perfect. So here I am looking

through Benny's eyes of this. And he says, their, their brains are smaller than a pea.

Our brains is this massive bloody thing, weighing about six kilograms.

Hanging between our ears. Okay. And he said that, that their flight control systems,

first of all, there has to be a neuro nerve from every feather connecting to that tiny,

tiny little brain. That flight control system has to be more advanced than any military jet

aircraft known to mankind.

The way they land and take off every time, like every time, I just love watching birds now

through Benny's eyes and I just, so he said,

look at their feathers on the trailing edge of their wings.

They're feeling the vortices.

This is the bird coming into land in a lot of turbulence.

And he said they can just feel the air going across the low-pressure surface,

which is the top surface of the wing.

And he said they can feel the turbulence just generating.

They trip the air and they drop to the surface,

drop to Earth perfectly every time.

Okay?

So you talk about curiosity.

Here's this bloke with supposedly no education.

But thinking way out there in terms of studying nature

and in awe of what a mingy little seagull can do

compared to us humans who we think we're pretty good.

And so there's no limitations for those types of people

in terms of what's this game going to look like in 20 years' time.

And I've got a refresher on curiosity for you.

When we first caught up, you know, I think you had me for 10 minutes

and you're drilling in what's happening and what's happening in life

and what are you up to when you ask questions.

It's...

That constant wanting to learn.

Well, I was fascinated with what you're doing.

You know, you're an interesting bloke and, you know, interesting character.

And clearly the interest is off the charts with me.

But I love that about, you know, and you're in, you know,

people might not understand you won a world championship, you know, in 2016.

You were telling me earlier, asking you, you're back, you know, sailing again.

And it's, you know, people talk about lifelong learning.

That just embodies everything that you're about, isn't it?

Yeah.

Well, on the team for, you know, we'll do the national championships in the Edshall class,

best racing in the country by far, second week of January in Adelaide.

So on the boat, I've got, signing with me is Tom Burton, Olympic gold medalist in Rio,

and Jake Lilly, current representative for the, in the Finn class, sailing in the Tokyo Olympics.

I'll learn a lot from them, heaps and heaps.

And hopefully they'll learn a little bit from me, but, you know, it'll be, it'll be an MBA,

of sailing.

Isn't that brilliant?

I love that about your sport, isn't it, John, that you can, you know, transcend generations,

can't you?

That you can, with this new current crop, and I know you're so connected to, you know,

our sailing is world-class and you're so connected to the next generation.

The fact they get to compete with you, I love it.

It's an amazing part of your sport.

Communicating with clarity is a dimension of leadership.

We know all leaders consider really strongly, and you've mentioned it a few times.

How did you go about your communicating in the areas that you've been in?

I think I'm, naturally, I'm a natural teacher, and I, I, and I think I can condense, I complexed

ideas down into simple forms that can be communicated, and keep communicating that through my, this

crazy thing called passion, okay, and commitment.

So, you know, I, I naturally like, one of the things I think is really key, and is to

empower people.

Okay?

To empower people.

So, you, I've used this thing called one plus one equals three before.

The intellectual horsepower within a group of people can be enormous if you can, if you

can combine it.

That's the point.

And that's the untapped potential of organizations, or sailing teams, or swimming programs where

they're coaches, and coaches, and the coaching fraternity, and relative to talking to each

other, relative to their teaching, their working with their, you know, their athletes, and

so on.

So, there's whole issues.

There's a whole issue of being able to communicate in a simple manner, such that ideas can get

across, and indeed, as I mentioned before, repeating those, hopefully no more than three

times, such that people really walk away and think, aha, the light bulb goes on.

So, that's all part and parcel of leadership.

There's no question.

You can be full of ideas, but if you can't communicate it in a simple manner, then can

be, can be communicated throughout the organization.

That's the other thing.

Yeah, and I love, you've mentioned empowering leadership a lot.

That's the title of the podcast, Empowering Leaders, John, because we see that as being

ultimately, you know, a big shift now, and you captured it, you know, in the early 80s

around empowering others around you to fulfill their roles, and you can only achieve, you

know, X amount doing it on your own and without empowering others in your environment.

We see that as being a real, a real skill.

Likewise, collaboration, and we see leaders are now equally.

Really strategic about their collaboration, and you were, they've always been ahead of

the curve, but your success was done with great collaboration.

How important was that to you?

It's huge.

Ed Debono, he coined the lateral thinking, the phrase lateral thinking, and Ed, we became

good friends.

He used the America's Cup as a case study with his teachings around the world.

Very interesting bloke, you know, lateral thinking, man.

I had his, his co-founder of the School of Thinking on this podcast, a guy called Michael

Hewitt Gleeson, and they ran the School of Thinking.

They ran the School of Thinking together and fascinated by how they were able to implement

that in the school system in the Bay Area, and they, they, they really, the study believes

that Silicon Valley's come out of really the alumni of the, of the Bay Area of San Francisco

creating Silicon Valley on the back of Edward Debono and, and Michael's thinking as well.

So, sorry to interrupt, but yeah.

No, that's fine.

So, Ed Debono, he's basically says there's four streams of thinking.

There's the reading, there's writing, there's arithmetic, and thinking is the final.

Core.

And he said most people, schools, systems, and whatever, don't really consider thinking,

but now we're talking about lateral thinking and going across from one idea to another

to take it to the next level.

Like the Trans-Siberian Railway was developed, the major, major technical problems, massive,

were not thousands of people.

It was maybe half a dozen people who really just work with each other, okay, and, you

know, with no limitations in many ways.

He, he wrote a book.

One of the key books he wrote, which was very important for America's Cup Project.

This is Edward Debono?

Ed, Ed Debono was the six hats of thinking, okay, which became very important with our

swimming program as well.

And that is you primarily to, to do great things, you need, in my case, no more than

six people.

Then it becomes too complex, but a team of six people, which are all different.

That's the key.

Not all the same.

So that you don't have a whole team.

You've got to have a whole bunch of yes people.

So there's the, and the, the colors come from, okay.

So the white hat is the chairman, chairperson, who empowers the thinking, empowers the people.

There's, let's say the green hat, who's the creative thinker.

He's the marketeer.

Comes up with the crazy ideas.

And then there's a black hat, who's the negative person.

You've got to say, now, hang on, Harry, that, you know, for this, this, and this reason,

that doesn't make sense.

And that's right.

You've got to have the checks and balances.

Then you've got to have the complete.

Don't give me all the high-flying ideas.

Just give me the project and I'll get the bloody thing done.

Okay.

So it's sort of a, you know, it's a very, it's a beautiful way of thinking about teams,

high-performance teams.

They're up to, say, six people.

And if you get to 10 or whatever, then, you know, it's too complex.

So this whole empowering of people and, and being comfortable with different people,

adding value to the mix, the six hats of thinking.

So, gee, when we were putting the team together for the America's Cup, and indeed, my thinking

with Swimming Australia is, is that you've got all these coaches, dedicated people, but

they're all different.

And don't worry about it.

That's how do we leverage off each other?

And how do we accept each other?

And how do we get on with it so that we can create something that's very special?

It's a brilliant story, John.

And it links right into that passion I was talking to you about.

A leader is the, the business and a leader connect is groups of six people, five or six

people.

And, you know, the diversity of thinking we see is the superpower to have exactly as

you described, that you don't know what you don't know, do you?

And if you're, you, you, often we operate the same sphere.

And when people come from outside, we're the opportunity to, to, to grow.

And you're right, leadership sometimes almost the wrong word, I feel, because it seems to

exclude people.

We see everyone as being, you're a leader in your own family.

You can, you don't have to have a title to be a leader.

In fact, the opposite of that.

You can, uh, lead from whatever position in an organization or, or even in your own

family.

So I appreciate you, you sharing that.

What, can I ask you, what was the Bono like if you had some time with him?

Oh, yeah, crazy, absolutely crazy, uh, and brilliant, absolutely brilliant, you know?

And, uh, so each time he came to Australia, we'd invariably, we'd, there, Rouse and I,

and, uh, he, he would have a dinner, you know, these long dinners and we'd, we'd, we'd,

we'd discuss the world.

Yeah, we'd discuss the world.

So the, I just, uh, when you're talking about at least, uh, you know, in terms of the teams,

uh, Jeff Harris, who's co-founder of our Flight Centre, okay?

I had the great pleasure of doing a podcast with Jeff recently.

What a, what an incredible thinker Jeff is.

Oh, yes, that's right.

Amazing.

So we were talking about, uh, teams quite a few years ago and he, he would have told

you, would have told the audience now, I'm sure, about the early days of Flight Centre

where they...

Got four or five or six people together.

And really studied around why, you know, tribes and organisation work.

Exactly.

And through trial and error and that, that, that sort of six to eight people was about

the max they felt and they built, yeah.

Well, what happens, they, based on early success, they went to 10 or 12 or 14.

They thought, this is cool, we just increase the size of the offices.

But they, it didn't work.

Yeah.

They got to that level of, you know, six or eight max and that was it.

So that's these, you know, the tribes, that's what we're talking about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Families and tribes.

And, uh, so De Bono, he sort of, that was his early thinking in many ways.

Ed De Bono.

I love that you've got an engineering mindset and engineering brain, but some of the people

you put closest to you were Ben Lexen and Edward De Bono.

I love these people.

Yeah.

So a lovely story.

Okay.

So one of the deals is that Ed De Bono was brought in to consult, uh, in New York City,

a building which they couldn't really, couldn't rationalise putting faster lifts in.

It was too expensive.

It was a residential property.

And, uh, but the lifts were too slow and they were losing income because people didn't like

waiting for a long, long time to get up to their 65th floor or whatever in New York City,

downtown.

So he's brought in to help, to find a solution.

So he looked at the whole thing and it was clearly too expensive to, you know, go the

conventional route.

So he suggested installing mirrors, full length mirrors in the foyer.

Okay.

Why?

Why?

People like looking at each other.

And if they like looking at each other, then the time goes much faster.

And some people like looking at themselves as well too.

Yeah.

That's, uh, yeah, lateral thinking.

You know, that's right.

So, okay.

So that's Ben Lexen.

That's out there.

You know, the breakthrough ideas aren't necessarily coming from a mathematical equation coming

out of MIT.

It's, uh, it's pure genius.

Uh, and the genius to me is people putting people around them like you that compliment

your skill set, isn't it?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's smart, isn't it?

You know, your engineering brain.

All I know is I don't know.

It's true.

If you go in with that type of mindset, you know, and saying, okay, well, again, you know,

this environment in 20 years' time would be so different.

Yeah.

How do we get there faster than any other people in the world?

That's the exciting part of human endeavor, in my opinion.

I love listening to it, John.

It's always inspiring to hear your thoughts on how to get there and what you've done in the past.

I've been asking these two questions, John, to all the leaders that I've had the privilege of sitting down with.

Who's been the greatest leader in your life?

Gee.

Well, first of all, in terms of our family, my wife, Raza, I've been married for 53 years.

Her leadership of the family blows me away.

Unbelievable.

In terms of her natural instinct of what's going on.

You know, we've got kids in London, grandkids in London, Ibiza in Spain, in Melbourne, seven grandkids, and all the stuff going on.

And so that little family unit and just, you know, the extension of her natural empathy for people around her and whatever.

So that's leadership in its pure, beautiful form.

Yeah.

If we talk about high level, you know, someone like the Bob Hawks of the world,

and spent.

You know, spent a lot of time, you know, with Bob, his natural instinct.

Yeah, those types of people.

You know, we spent, I spent time with Ted Kennedy in America, Jackie Onassis or Jackie Kennedy in the early days.

Small amounts of time.

But, you know, again, people at this sort of level, really intriguing.

And, you know, through Ted.

During the John F. Kennedy era, the Cuban Missile Crisis, staying with Ted in his home in Washington and looking at some of the sketchings that JFK had done during the key crisis meetings and the notes and so on.

And learning about, you know, intriguing about human history being put together.

Those things fascinate me a lot, I must say.

Yeah.

But, you know, again.

The Bob Hawke thing was quite remarkable.

Spent some, quite a lot of time with John Howard.

Fascinating man.

You know.

Each of these, all of these, very, very strong values.

You know, authentic, absolutely.

What you see is what you get.

Yeah, I love you.

You started at home and then, you know, it's been an incredible life that you've lived and, you know, clearly your respect on the home front to be married for 53 years.

Something special is happening there, John, which is not surprising.

You went there first.

But I loved it.

Hey, it surprises me.

I was 19 years yesterday, actually.

So I'm, you know, fair way to go to get to 53, John.

But I say this a fair bit because, and I need to sit down and interview my wife because she's exactly the same superstar.

Sounds very much like her in terms of her empathy and what she does for our family unit off the charts.

But I'm always surprised, John.

You've got such a, you know, incredible brain for how to succeed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think people apply that to their own home front.

I find fascinating because, you know, if that breaks down, your life is on every measure going to be, you know, immensely worse, isn't it?

So it's interesting, isn't it?

Yeah.

And I'm not proud of my early days as a father.

You know, I was off everywhere doing this crazy chasing the dream of whether Olympics or America's Cups to the exclusion of family life.

Do you look back with some regret for that, John?

Oh, God, yeah.

Absolutely.

Oh, no question.

You know, looking back, you know, four days after our first marriage.

I was born, Lucas, you know, I went to Europe for three months because we're in the business of developing our own new sailcloth to win the America's Cup, you know, all of the stuff.

You look back and you think, my God, yeah.

So, but anyway, we were able to get through all of that.

And so we've had plenty of, you know, plenty of issues.

You know, Raza only left me three times.

But each time she left me with a kid.

So I was bucked.

And we came back pretty fast.

But God bless her.

So she's seen more stuff than most girls who'd ever seen in a lifetime and traveling the world and on the smell of an oil rag following her crazy dreams.

But, you know, I have just so much respect for her.

And now as a grandmother, what she achieves, yeah.

And that's human.

That's people, isn't it?

And it's family.

And it's, hey, how important is family?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love hearing you talk about that.

We are obsessed with collaboration, John.

And we see that that's where, you know, so much of the shift is and how we collaborate to do things better.

I ask you this question, John.

If you could collaborate with anyone in the world on anything, there's so many passions in your life.

Is there someone in your mind that you think of that you would like to pursue in terms of collaboration?

Gee.

Well, I've got to, you know, depending on the areas of activity, you know, some really, really interesting characters like Rod Eddington, Sir Rod.

You know, we go around the town with him occasionally when he's in Australia.

And people like John Wiley, you know, massive, amazing intellect in terms of understanding what's going on in the financial world, for example.

Over in the...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Over in Europe, Ben Ainslie, who's the head of the British America's Cup Challenge, Sir Ben now.

You know, we're very good friends.

You know, we've raced with each other in the Etchells and so on.

You know, I love hanging out with really, you know, advanced people.

So, and I have the, you know what, I have the privilege also to hang out with some really interesting cats as well, you know.

Yeah.

I'm very fortunate in that regard.

So, it's, gee, there's so, there's people who just, there's so many different angles of life, isn't there, that you, you know.

I love that your mind's going off in so many directions, John.

And I know that you have a huge amount of influence over so many people as well and what you give back.

And you're so generous with your time to people across all the passions of your life from the Collingwood Football Club to, I mentioned the Alana and Madeline Foundation and all of your work in everything is profound.

And it's...

It's been great fun, John.

I've learned a lot, again, sitting along from you today.

So, thanks so much.

I appreciate you joining me.

Let me just, a little correction.

The Alana and Madeline Foundation, I retired several years ago, but I was there, I was chair for 15 years with that.

And we've helped, as it turns out, millions of kids in terms of cyberbullying issues around that.

So...

And people who don't, the background of that is incredible, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's one of the most tragic stories in Australian history.

And on the back of that, to have such a profound influence on young people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That must feel you enjoyed.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Very, yeah.

Very fulfilling.

You can make a small difference to a lot of people's lives.

That's right.

A bit bigger than a small difference, John.

Everything you do makes a massive difference.

And once again, thanks for your time.

My pleasure.

Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy, produced by Matt Dwyer, with audio

production by Darcy Thompson.

To start your leadership journey, I encourage you to go to elitacollective.com, take our

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