How do you stand up against an environment that's designed to silence you?
What does it mean to tell your own story, empower others and lead a catalyst for change?
G'day, it's Luke Darson.
The idea of self-improvement and leadership both on and off the field has been a lifelong passion of mine.
With one of my oldest friends, we created a leader collective.
I've had the privilege of working with thousands of leaders in education, sport, industry and the arts
that have helped shift to what we see as the 21st century style of leadership where everyone has a voice.
In this podcast, we hear stories from these iconic leaders.
Lena Lynch was born on the 12th of January 1992 in Yokohama, Japan of Taiwanese-Australian descent,
migrating to Australia at the age of six.
Professionally known as Jaguar Jones, she's an extraordinary singer, songwriter,
multi-instrumentalist.
and multi-disciplinary artist.
Her courage to go public with her own story of sexual assault has in no short part led to a cultural review.
The Australian music industry aimed at stopping sexual harassment and systemic discrimination.
It is an amazing and unique story of leadership.
Jaguar Jones, it's a great pleasure and honour to meet you and I really appreciate you joining me today.
No, thank you so much for having me, Luke.
I loved in doing some research for today, there was a quote attributed towards you
and I thought it was really interesting.
It resonated with me to sum up the creative explosion that is Dina Lynch into a neat little
elevator pitch would have even the most qualified journalist in tears rather than trying to do it
myself and embarrassing me.
I thought, can you maybe sum up your creative genius and describe the passion you have
and the different disciplines that your art takes?
I guess my journey into creativity or music or art is really different in the sense that
I wasn't creative growing up.
I mean, I probably was creative, but it was very repressed and I was very much pushed towards
the maths and science angle and coming from, I guess, a troubled background, my obsession
and what was drummed into my head was security and stability and to climb up that social ladder
so that I can get out of, you know, my situation that, you know, and so taking a punt on something
like music or art.
That was never, ever, ever in my trajectory.
I studied engineering at Melbourne Uni and then I went on to, I didn't finish that, but
I went on to business marketing and became a business analyst in a software development
So that was so different to where I've ended up now.
And the reason is because I've had a lot of trauma growing up, but nowhere to put that
trauma or to process.
I had no support and, you know, there was something that happened when I was 18 and
it just kind of pulled the thread and unraveled everything.
And I was walking home in Melbourne and past a garage sale and I saw a guitar and I just
saw that guitar and said to myself, I'm going to learn how to play the guitar, but I didn't
learn how to play the guitar.
I just ended up writing.
All these songs that I didn't know was, I guess, within me, but basically it was, there
was too much in my body and I had to put that somewhere else.
And music became that vessel and communication tool in order for me to be able to start having
honest dialogue with myself.
And that became, that started this journey of passion for me.
I think my whole life has been about survival.
And when I came across passion,
it changed my life.
And so I decided to take huge change and huge steps to make that passion my everyday reality.
If anyone has heard Jaguar Jones sing, you will hear passion.
I promise you that.
And I've loved the journey for me of going back and listening to what you've written.
And it is amazing.
I encourage anyone that hasn't heard your music to start there for a start.
And there's other areas that you branch into with your photography.
And so many other creative bits of genius.
As I said, I've got this theory, Jaguar, that people can't, you can't manufacture passion
It's not possible.
But often parents and adults, we try to do that sometimes for good reasons, but it never
And is that your lived experience that you were sent towards engineering for safety and
climbing the ladder, as you said, but your really life started when you really focused
on what you love?
And I understand as well, because when I say I had a troubled,
troubled background, you know, I also think my mom went through a really, really difficult
She is the most amazing person and what she wanted out of me and the people around her,
what they wanted out of me is for us to all have a different circumstance and for us to
have, I guess, the lowest risk in being able to have the most stable life.
And to them, that would mean, you know, I guess, going to university, having education
and then climbing the ladder.
But that doesn't mean that if you have security in that financial sense, you'll be happy as
And I think the difference in embarking on my own journey is giving myself permission
to not meet anyone else's expectations, but to live my own life because it is what I deserve.
Incredibly authentic way that you've gone about it too, Jagu, in every sense.
And it's a great lesson for all of us listening, isn't it?
That in search of something, you're going to find something.
Sometimes stability and security, we give up the thing that makes us happy in every sense.
Now, at 18, as you said, you stumble across a garage, you pick up a guitar and you start
writing these songs and you're about to embark on the creative pursuit, the music industry.
So that's challenging enough.
And yet that industry throws up these incredible hurdles your way that are horrific and extraordinary
for you to have to deal with your own sexual assault, discrimination.
And for you to take that on.
And for you to take a stand at such an age, you're still only 30 years of age now, and
to say, this is not acceptable.
This has to change.
I'm not going to allow this takes extraordinary courage.
You're taking on powerful people as you have done, Jagu.
Where did that self-leadership come from within you?
I guess it really does come from where I came from.
When I said I come from a troubled background, there was two ways to go about it when given
You know, dealt a certain card in life.
That is to let it kick you to the curb or bring it to your stride.
And I definitely did, like as a younger person, let it kick me to the curb.
And I had my ways of dealing with things that was unhealthy.
But I then learned to constantly bring it into my stride.
And I realized that resilience and passion will get me further every time.
And so I think there was this.
I don't know, innate feeling in myself of wanting to survive, but also wanting to take
the power of my own life and not let anyone else determine what environment I will be
in and what kind of life I will lead.
I say this now, like it was just, you know, this quick, easy decision one morning, but
It's an everyday struggle.
Today is a good day, but maybe tomorrow isn't.
But what I constantly tell myself is.
To fight just a little bit every single day and take those baby steps, because you'll
look back one day and just say, like, that you've conquered mountains and mountains of
obstacles when sometimes you're just trudging along that mountain and thinking it's impossible.
You look back and you remind yourself of what you've achieved when you do things bit by bit.
And those mountains are enormous already, Jagu, and you think that your story and your
leadership and your courage has inspired this cultural review into the Australian music
industry, as I said in the introduction.
And this is all at the sexual harassment that has been commonplace.
I mean, the music industry and other industries, as we know, but no one had really called it
out in Australia like you had and the systemic discrimination going on.
Are you comfortable with the way your industry has responded now over time?
It definitely took time.
When I decided to speak out, it was a very, very different place.
And it was a lot of risk.
I didn't have the same power, privilege or platform to be able to make the change that
I've been able to make.
But the truth is, when I spoke out, people were ready for it.
They just were waiting for that, I guess, leadership or that space for that wave to
The truth is, I didn't speak out on my own.
I spoke out and it just caused ripples amongst many who had had it repressed in them and
needed that change.
So it led to a momentum of support and a lot of people on the same side.
And to get to a place now where we're able to commission a music industry review has
taken so much sacrifice and so much hard work, not just from me, but so many other survivors
and incredible women in the industry.
And it just came from this need of change.
I don't think this industry can survive.
I don't think this industry can survive in the same way that it did in the past.
I don't think this industry can survive in the same way it has been.
And I think the people are sick of the abuse of power that is prevalent in the industry.
And Jaguar, people won't understand, and I'm sure you are acutely aware now that often
the laws are set up to protect those in the hierarchy who have got resources and got money
and defamation laws and gag orders.
And it's still probably very hard for you to tell the full truth at times of what happened
to you and what needs to happen to make that change.
Are you disappointed in some ways?
I mean, emerging artists...
You're a late starter in some ways to the industry that it took someone like you who
probably was more vulnerable than some of the other industry heavyweights that could
Are you a bit surprised by that or a bit disappointed by that?
I'm not surprised, but I'm disappointed.
And I'm extremely hurt by it too, because even though I've been able to create this
momentum, there is this expectation on me to give, give, give, give, and the industry
to just be able to take, take, take.
And I am so tired of having to give from an empty tank.
It's a lot easier now having been able to move the industry to a place where they are
wanting to grow awareness rather than just deny and dismiss.
But there's a lot of healing within me that I have to do at some point because I just
had to keep on fighting on behalf of the industry and on behalf of our leaders who are paid,
and in position to be able to make this change without depending on people like me, again,
without the same level of power, privilege, resource, or platform.
So it's incredibly difficult, but I just know that it will...
The reason why I did it was because I wish someone did it for me when I didn't have a
And I know what it's like to be powerless.
And I know what it's like to be powerless for so long.
And there was no way that I was going to be content with staying in that culture of silence
and repeating the same pattern that has been systemic in the industry.
So I was more happy to risk and cannibalize my career than to just stay quiet and know
that it's happening to other people.
So I had to do something.
Which is the ultimate definition of courage and leadership in my mind.
And I sit here and I think of the bravery and it comes in unique forms, Jaguar, to think
that you have that within you to take on such a powerful industry that's set up to make
that difficult for you.
And I hope part of what happens is that the creativity that clearly pours out of you,
People like me who aren't from the music industry who hear your story and go, wow, how amazed
and impressed are we?
I love your song, Who Died and Made the X.
And I just can't help but smile when I, can I just read the opening lyrics back to you?
Clearly they're yours.
But to me, this sums up what you're on about in such a powerful way.
I'm leading on the voice of change.
Your downfall isn't far away.
Believing that you're here to stay.
Now that you're leaving, we can finally say, who died and made you king?
The song for me was all about, I guess the industry is built on all these little kingdoms
and, you know, you could have even like an even bigger kingdom, but there's this kind
of hierarchy of kingdoms in the industry.
And on top of every kingdom is a self-made king that has somehow decided to give themselves
so much power and exploit so much and cause so much damage because they feel like they
Or have earned the right to that power.
And I guess it's all about decentralizing that kind of hierarchical structure of the
industry and, you know, trying to instill healthy relationships and healthy environments.
And it just needs a lot of change.
I sit here laughing when you read those lyrics back to me.
But at the time, I was, I don't know if I can swear, shitting.
Like, I was, I don't know what, how else I could say it, but I don't know if you can,
You can swear as often as you like, you can do whatever you like.
It was an apt description.
I have never, ever written a song like that.
That song was the first time I allowed myself to feel anger.
For so long, I felt like anger was a bad emotion because the people around me used anger in
But what I didn't realize was that I was a bad person.
And what I didn't realize is that I wasn't acknowledging myself or giving myself the
love that I deserve by holding back the anger I should be allowed to feel because of what
has happened to me.
That song was this like huge step of change for me.
I wrote that song so quickly in one day and listened back to it going like, oh my gosh,
who is this person with so much anger and sass?
Like, I don't even recognize her.
And then I went down this like,
spiral of I'm going to have lawyers all up against me.
I sampled someone as the instrumental.
I sampled someone's speech, hypocritical speech in the instrumental.
I just went on this crazy research of, am I going to get sued?
How much risk is this?
What am I up against?
Should I do this?
Am I going to get into trouble?
It was two months of me being in my head going, I don't know if I should do this.
But I'm so, so, so glad I did because it ended up coming out hand in hand with the Four Corners
documentary behind, I guess, a particular story in the music industry.
It became this like perfect storm of all these elements locking into place so that,
I don't know, survivors can finally find this voice and give themselves the anger that they deserve
and charge on through demanding change.
So now I sit here going, I am so proud of myself for pushing against my own fear
and claiming my own power back and speaking my truth.
But at the time it was a whole different story.
What that has now led to is a better artist within me because I'm now creating music and
creating art with less fear and less filter because I'm giving myself permission to speak
my truth, even in my art.
What a powerful message and delivered in the most incredible way.
And the sample that you included in your song was that of a 50-year veteran and an incredible
position of power.
And I think that's a significant change.
And, you know, you can't walk in someone else's shoes.
I can't pretend to understand what that must have been like for you, but you summed up
the courage extraordinarily.
And it is great to hear that that has then led to you feeling that you have got your
And, you know, as I said, it's a remarkable story of leadership in every way.
You know, Jacob, to share with you, we feel like, and this podcast has been really in
essence about identifying a change in leadership that we're seeing, you know, I come from a
sporting background.
But people in industry, that there is this new culture, new community where I think the
words you used were sort of breaking down the hierarchy.
We're seeing that.
We're seeing these great leaders who are powerful, sometimes alpha males, who now see that leading
with care and empathy and vulnerability and looking after the whole person is in fact
the way to do it and the most powerful thing that you can do and the most sustained success
Is that where you want this to head?
This is your industry.
Are you seeing that trend in your industry?
Are you seeing that trend in your industry now or is it still a bit slow?
I mean, I still think it's a bit slow, but I am seeing that change.
And I know that once we embark on that change, things will move quite quickly.
It's that initial step that takes a little bit of time and energy and effort because
what you're wanting, you're basically breaking down everything you know and everything you're
comfortable with and having to unlearn and rebuild.
And that's a huge ask.
So I don't blame the industry for being slow because it's been built up for so long on
control and shame and denial and dismissal and perception.
And I think that is also a reflection in society too.
I think for so long, society has been built on control and shame and having to put on
a certain kind of perception.
And this leadership that you're talking about to me is this realization of, you know,
we actually can be a lot more happier.
We can actually do a lot more.
We can have better and healthier relationships if we flip it on its head and build society
with a different structure.
And so we're starting to see less shame in conversations.
You know, I don't know about you, but, you know, things like there's more language to
things that the word accountability sounds less like a business term now and more like
everyday language.
There's things like, you know, toxic masculinity, you know, which wasn't everyday language
before, even things for like male gaze.
What was male gaze when I was in primary school?
That wasn't something that we had coined then.
So I think we're evolving now to be able to confront things, you know, on its head and
label things so that we can start removing things from denial and dismissal and shame
And start looking at the truth about things and growing as society.
That's my opinion though.
Well, and you sum it up eloquently and you make a powerful point again in your language.
And, you know, it certainly resonates with me hearing you say that.
And I hope part of what we're hoping to do is to share that for people, you know, very
different background for me, you know, haven't ever been on the end of discrimination, haven't
ever had to deal with anything like you've had to deal with.
So it's very hard.
It's very hard for me to even pretend that I understand what that's like, but hopefully
the empathy is there to say, we've got to learn.
You know, we've all have a teenage daughter that I want to not have to experience the
pain that you've been through to get to the point that you are.
And I think that is the essence of it, that the courage of someone like you is going to
open those pathways in a much more powerful way.
And I look at your story and I think, I wouldn't underestimate Jaguar Jones in any form or
any, I'm changing gear a little bit, but I did read with interest that mid-break, you're
performance, you're fresh from doing Eurovision Australia, that you, and one of your performances,
you've dislocated your shoulder, put it back in.
I mean, the sporting background I come from, most sports people tap them out of dislocated
You finished your performance with a dislocated shoulder.
Where do you draw on that sort of courage and resilience from?
Um, I, that was my very first live national TV performance.
And I remember when it, I remember when it kind of, you know, I was in the middle of
lockdown, you know, locked out, there was all this dread coming over my body.
And I just was saying to myself, oh my gosh, I'm going to have to tell everyone I have
And I've made myself into a national fool for my very first performance and that I've
dislocated my shoulder and can't continue this performance.
And there was this, I don't know, enormous energy within me and probably a lot of adrenaline
as well that said, no way.
So hard to get to this point, to just let a dislocated shoulder stop you from performing
This is the first opportunity you've had to be able to perform in front of your whole
Try and scrape together every bit you've got and finish this performance.
And I just remember like, you can kind of see it if you slow it down.
I'm trying to, there's these different angles.
I'm stuck in this certain position, which I.
I made it look like it was kind of choreography, but I was actually stuck lying down just like,
How do we get up?
And I locked it in.
I was like, oh my God, yes, no way.
And so I continued on.
And if you see this video on YouTube, I actually have to push down these walls in the middle
of the song to reveal the band.
You'll see one arm, one shoulder struggling.
To like push it because I had like, it was extremely sore and I was like, oh gosh.
And in my head I had, okay, plan B, just kick it down.
But it eventually did fall over.
But you'll see there's one, one arm is just like bump wall down.
And the other one is like, like really pushing for it.
But I think I don't, I don't know.
Sometimes I tell myself that the greatest asset that was given to me is resilience and
Um, but I am made of.
I don't, I don't know, oxymorons.
I don't want to be, um, I guess like, I don't want to pretend I'm a certain way and empower
people by saying, just stay strong all the time.
Because the truth is, uh, you know, I am courageous, but I am also extremely fearful.
And that's the truth.
You know, every day is I'm strong and I'm also weak.
Sometimes I can, you know, back people up, but sometimes I need backing up too.
I want to be transparent with my journey.
It's, it hasn't been a breeze and it's difficult.
And, you know, I wanted to give up so many times, but I didn't.
And I think that's the truth I want to put out there.
I don't want this perception, um, that musicians always have to put out there that, you know,
everything is glamorous and glitz and rock and roll.
That's not the truth.
You know, there's only just this one aspect of the story that we're letting the audiences,
um, get consumed in.
It's up and down.
Um, but the most important thing is that you're looking after yourself and you're giving yourself
the love that you deserve.
And what I've learned is that you have support around you, like genuine support and that
you're in, uh, the healthiest environment that you can be.
Um, and that's the truth I want to put out there.
And I think that's why I'm able to do things like that on national TV.
That's a, that's a great way to, to explain.
And I, and I love that about listening to you and reading about you is that total openness
and total vulnerability and honesty.
And I think if we're all honest, there's, you know, imposter syndrome is a thing, isn't
Who am I, how am I to, to, to take on, like you have huge, powerful people or who am I
to be creative enough to perform in front of a national stage and, you know, the sporting
context, that, that great fear combination with that great confidence.
Confidence is, is, is just the truth, isn't it?
But it doesn't seem as though, you know, in the world of social media, we don't tend to
see that too often these days.
And particularly someone like you from, you know, uh, a mixed race background coming to
Australia with all the things that have happened to you to be able to still at 30 years of
Do you see that impact, particularly for young females being something that you're really,
you're really proud of?
So I was telling you before I did Eurovision Australia Decides.
It was on Saturday and, um, I released this song called Little Fires and it was my most
vulnerable song I've ever written.
Um, and it speaks about, I guess, the advocacy that I've been doing in the last two years.
And the metaphor of Little Fires is, I guess, like, you know, being little fires in every
way you can and that everyone is a little fire depends on what you do with that.
And together we can fan that, you know, little fire together.
And so it's, it's all about fighting that little fight every single day.
It was a huge moment for me on TV, um, on Saturday because, um, it was my moment to
claim my voice back.
And I didn't know I was breaking down backstage, uh, just before I was about to perform.
I was all this emotion that was built up within me because I've just been pushing it down and
fighting every day and putting on a strong face.
The inner child, I guess, in me was, um, coming up in that moment, needing nurturing.
And, um, oh, it was an incredible moment on stage.
And the most touching part about doing that, because I didn't know if I should have done it,
was the response I got.
And I'm not doing it for response, but I realized that, um,
there's something.
There's something incredible when we can connect together and let each other know that
Um, and we don't have to fight alone and people reaching out to me on Twitter or on social
media, sharing their stories with me, their stories of survive, like surviving and, you
know, uh, abuse and, and whatnot coming to me and sharing their vulnerability with me
and me sharing their vulnerability, my vulnerability with them.
It's allowed us to.
Become stronger and to find healing.
And it's incredible.
And I just was so emotional, emotional at the response I was receiving after that performance.
Um, but I also get so much from that.
And, and I think, I think that's, what's super important and is probably what, why you're
doing this podcast as well is for people to connect because without connection, you know,
society is nothing, you know, it's so important to maintain that connection.
And, and so many times, especially through the pandemic, we can so easily become more
detached and dissociated, but it's so important to have honest conversations and to connect
so that we can understand different perspectives.
I know I still have a lot to learn, um, from other people and the stories they've been
through all the discrimination or injustices that they've had to face.
And I think it's just important to just keep dialogues like this, like, you know, I'm not
going to do a podcast like this so that, um, we can all grow together.
Again, well said.
Your language is just so powerful and it resonates and you're right.
The connection is in it when all is said and done, what are you left with?
It's the impact you have and the connection you have on others.
And I love the diversity.
Someone with my, you know, white bread background and coming from the world of...
Did you say white bread?
I did say white bread because I'm looking at me on the screen.
I look even more white bread than, uh, than you could possibly...
You just made me hungry, to be honest.
You said you had a big night after Eurovision, so maybe we need to get you a bunning sausage
To, uh, to, to make this go through.
But, but I think about that and I love the fact, you know, we couldn't come from more
different worlds, but, but I listened to your story and it inspires me.
I'm, you know, inspired by your courage and, and it resonates so powerfully in, in, in
so many different ways and, uh, more strength to you, more, more credit to the way that
you've been able to, to, to handle yourself in, in every way.
Every single way.
I mean, are you feeling that coming back your way now?
I mean, I think of Grace Tame, well, I was about to transition to there, geez, the Australian
And again, courage comes in all shapes and sizes.
And I, you know, again, full of admiration, could not come from a more different world.
Really, how do I understand what's happened to that beautiful young girl?
And really, but you can have empathy and you can try and learn.
I suppose that's where I'm coming from in this.
But I also feel someone like you and someone like Grace Tame, every time you come and chat
to someone like Grace Tame, I feel like you're coming from a different world.
I feel like you're coming from a different world.
I feel like you're coming from a different world.
You're reliving the hardship that you face.
Is that a challenge as well?
And is there a balance that needs to be struck with that?
I think at the beginning of my advocacy, I didn't have the boundaries I needed to have
to be able to sustain what I was doing by speaking out, especially in the beginning
when you don't have that support around you, or you don't even have the belief system around
You are putting yourself out there.
You're putting yourself out on a limb, and it's so easy to break down from that or have
that be used against you.
I'm going to be straight up and say therapy.
I definitely needed therapy before speaking out as well, but to help me go through that
It is extremely taxing to do what Grace Tame does on a national level every single day.
She is incredible.
And we cannot ever dismiss that or take that for granted.
What she's doing, including Brittany Higgins, it takes an insane amount of selflessness
And I just hope that people constantly remember or try to learn what it takes to do that and
to take that risk and to speak on behalf of so many people.
survivors don't have the responsibility to do that at all.
And the anger that comes from me is that you put yourself out there and then bizarrely
in my mind, there's people who try to undermine that.
And even in recent times, Grace Tame's had to deal with old photos emerging of her with
effectively a bong on it.
It's like, seriously, is that as good as we can do?
I mean, who would even understand, as she beautifully said afterwards, without necessarily
going in full detail.
That's where the anger steps up for people, perhaps like me, who haven't had to go through
it to say that that's just above and beyond any sense of fairness.
Well, I guess it comes back to our culture in Australia as well, that I definitely felt
this pressure when you come up on the rise, you know, you're speaking out and you're actually
making impact and change.
There's this weird shift that happens where you're right on the top and you're feeling
so much pressure and people want to take you down.
That's where tall poppy syndrome comes in, you know, and that's what you're seeing.
Grace has been able to lead such a change and now people want to character assassinate
her because they want to take her down.
And what, like, for what reason does that photo have anything to do with what she's
done outside of that?
You know what I mean?
And so I think there needs to be a cultural shift of why is there so much toxicity in
And so I think that's where we need to do that or, or to, you know, want to jump for
the quick, quick click baits, you know, the quick wins, wins, I say with like quotation
marks, because they're not real wins.
They're just these like short term, like, oh, we'll be able to get some attention here
and we'll be able to get a story here and we can start, you know, some gossip here.
It's just not worth it.
What she's doing is incredible and we should just respect that and elevate that and amplify
Because yeah, it just, it's so important for our society to grow from that and to learn
And people like her are so rare.
We should be protecting her.
Part of that cultural shift, Jaguar, that we're hoping to influence in a, in a small
way is identifying the dimensions of what we think makes great leadership so that people
Sometimes people just don't understand their impact, who are well-meaning and we're identifying
these characteristics.
We're identifying these characteristics that make this modern leadership and the success
that it's having and more empathy.
And as I said before, more self-awareness, more self-reflection, more collaboration,
all those things.
And so I'm really looking forward to your answers because I've been asking a range of
different, with your creative mind, I think this will be fascinating.
And that's what we want.
We want to see people from the arts and from industry and from sport cross over because
there is a lot of shared learning, I think, when you put people together from different
So please expand Jaguar as much as you like.
And as I ask these questions, but we see self-leadership in leaders as something that they think of
and where it all starts.
When you think of your own self-leadership, Jaguar, what comes to mind?
I think what makes a, I mean, I never thought I was like a leader, but I think what makes
a great leader is someone who listens.
Often we have this, you know, picture painted of a leadership who just takes control and
is in front of the pack.
But to me, leadership is you're amongst the pack and you're listening to the stories around
you so that you grow your awareness.
You come into your empathy and you make decisions based on what is best for the collective.
It's funny, Jay, the amount of leaders that I've spoken to who say exactly what you said
I never saw myself as a leader.
And I think that humility is part of what is the trademark of great leaders that we're
seeing going forward.
And that is certainly in you and all your answers as well.
The thought of leaders positively impacting others in their environment and consciously
thinking about how they go about that, how do you think about positively impacting others?
Honestly, I just want everyone to lead their
And I see so many elements stopping people from doing that.
I also was in that same position, you know.
And being able to break out of that and grow from that and give myself that freedom and
heal so much in my mental health.
All I want to do is give that back to someone else who didn't have the resource or the support
or the environment to build that healthy structure for themselves.
I feel so blessed that I've been able to move from an unfortunate and disheartening environment,
disadvantaged background to where I am now and I'm still fighting for a sustainable career
but that change has been incredible and the only way we can do that is by giving back to the
community and I'm just trying to do it in my own way and I found that through art and music and
contributing to you know culture and the arts and and to create conversations through that so
I don't have a big grand plan I just want to do my bit every single day in the way that I can
to hopefully just connect with one other person who's been through a similar situation like me
and you sure are making an incredible impact on on every level creating and sharing your vision
and yours is such a brilliant unique vision if you check out Jaguar Jones's website go and look
is it the Jones Society?
you can be a member of do I get that right?
yeah yes I have a Patreon I only started this Patreon at the start of the pandemic
yeah and so yeah you can be the fans have now called it a cub so if you're a fan of Jaguar
Jones and the Jones Society which is everything I do you're a cub
I love it it's a it's a great representation of everything you are and I and I read
words attributed to you saying you know taking on multi-disciplines
you know taking on multi-disciplines and you know taking on multi-disciplines
could be argued to be insanity in the artistic world but it's a necessity for you and it is a
unique vision how have you gone I read about how you've created and shared that vision but
have you thought about it?
so it started with music which is a dialogue with myself and my subconscious where I was able to
understand what was going on or I was able to process things that were happening to me
that I had just denied from I was able to process things that were happening to me
denied for so long and repressed for so long because it was too scary to confront so music was
I guess it's this like selfish conversation with myself which has allowed me to be more free and
more open with myself but then art became conversation with others so I have this visual
art project and I interview each person before I draw them and then I draw their story just I guess
visually interpret the things that they shared with me and what that has allowed is for me to
take my honest truths and conversations from my music and share them with others and for others
to share that with me and I realized that when when you have those conversations and you share
you grow and you heal so much and so quickly that it's important to me to be the person that I am
by continually continually having these conversations
so that was that for me and then my photography is all about my relationship with my body
and it's very obvious when you look up my photography it's under each one has a name
music is jaguar jones art is spectator jones and photography is dusky jones and the photography
project is I guess claiming my body back because for so long I felt like it wasn't mine
you've been through I guess the amount of abuse and terror that I've been through
you become so disconnected and dissociated from your body and it was all about loving my body
and the skin that I'm in and exploring that and maintaining the relationship with that and
the photography project is extremely beautiful people come to me to do similar things or to
explore their sexuality or to explore their sexuality and to explore their sexuality and
to explore the fine lines between femininity and masculinity and embracing both
and it's just this incredible journey of refining and redefining our relationship with our bodies so
I really love each of my projects and they give so much to me and has made me who I am now
if you had this conversation with me you wouldn't because I wasn't in the same place
but if we talked a
couple years back I was a whole different person these projects has been a life-changing journey
for me and which is why it's not just a passion and a pursuit it's a necessity for me you can join
the jones society and support the you know creative journey that is jaguar jones and you
just heard I won't try and do it justice as the journalist before said I'll end up in tears trying
to do that in an elevator pitch format but it is fascinating I really encourage anyone
who's listening to this go and check it out online it's a fascinating unique vision that
that you've got and as you said it's a necessity for your own well-being it's great you can hear
the the uh the sense of self you've got now um without having spoken to you before it comes out
in in all of all of your words um jaguar we see curiosity leaders who are in this community of
of 21st century leadership are really curious and they approach their own sense of learning
and development through curiosity does that resonate with you definitely
the other side to all this um like creation and expression is because I never had the childhood
I deserved I am living my best childhood now and so I totally understand curiosity the other side
to my art and my music is I want to experience and I want to create experiences that we've never
seen before and never had around so I'm constantly wanting to push creative boundaries and see what
I can do and I think it's this beautiful uh
I don't know melting pot of innovation and technology and collaboration and conversation
and see where that can lead so curiosity is definitely something that I dabble in
every single day yeah I can hear that come out in your voice um one of the other dimensions we see
with leaders across different industries is how they think about communicating with clarity and
and we've just heard a lot of your unique uh you know communication through song and through um
visual and also through through taking uh photos and portraits what what are your thoughts when
you think about communicating communication is key that sounds like such a like you know
coin like I don't know some kind of tagline but communication is so important to me I have
amazing communication with my within my working relationships as well um and I try to you know
break down shame um and always encourage people to be able to communicate with me and I try to
encourage honesty and transparency even if it's uncomfortable I think it's all about putting
your ego aside having an ego so that you love yourself but also putting an ego aside so that
it's not hindering you from the truth and from growing with other people communication is key
to be able to do more with your skill set and with people around you um and to make the most of it
out of your life so I I think it's all about continually um improving those communication
skills I loved how you described then it was really uh you know you you sort of paused and
went actually having an ego because that's actually you know you don't get on stage and
be jaguar jones I reckon without as a strong sense of self and probably for all of us if we deny that
you lose part of you you know the world I was in full of ego still is but you know your definition
is saying having that in in control and in its rightful place so I think that's a really good
space is did I read that the right way oh totally I had to learn to build an ego um because I was
you know raised a certain way as a child to be you know subservient and just continually serve
and to be powerless so I had to grow an ego to be able to get to the place that I am today
I see it as this little monster um but you need that monster and it's all about being aware of
that monster and sometimes putting it in your pocket
on your shoulder or sometimes being like sit down little monster uh sit down you know pipe it
so I think it's all about having that healthy relationship with your ego well I can see you're
about to swear then I was uh it was nearly coming out of you which which would have been very
appropriate uh you've mentioned collaboration that's the final dimension we talk about a lot
great leaders now want to collaborate they want to learn from other people how important is is
collaboration and how important is collaboration and how important is collaboration and how important
is it for you collaboration is everything um for me jaguar jones jones society anything I do
does not exist without collaborating with other people what I've had to do is take time to find
the people who want to collaborate with me and who believe in me and it's this constant
give and take I'm supporting their dreams and they are supporting my dreams
and we have this beautiful relationship of um pushing things further because we're both
giving and taking constantly nothing like none of what I do would exist without collaboration
music and and art as well but music takes so much collaboration on every single level from
writing to recording to you know the marketing side of things to touring playing on stage like
it doesn't exist it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just it's just
without collaboration so even though it sounds like it's a soul project and jaguar jones is me
it's actually a group project of many talented people and it's all about leaning in as well
I I can't be everything and I definitely am not talented in every aspect but if you don't
collaborate and if you don't lean in to other people's talents you're limiting yourself by
leaning into other people's talents I get to learn and grow every single day and I'm not going to
and I think you know society is built and should be built on collaboration yeah brilliant the way
that you naturally went to the give and take of of collaboration I think people often see
collaboration is what they're going to get out of and seek out collaboration on that basis but
you're right and the ultimate satisfaction isn't it when you contribute as much in that
collaboration I did mention before we started recording in research I I love the collaboration
you did on triple j's like a version um nirvana's heart-shaped box and I think it's a really good
with an artist called hermitude if I got that right you did check check that out because that
is very very cool um when did you record that one that was two years ago now and I got this
email in my inbox hermitude is a very established artist and two years ago I was far from where I am
now um and I got this email and I thought it was spam when they asked me if I would consider doing
the like a version with them
and this is where I'm a little bit embarrassed but because I was born in Japan and you know I
grew up with my Taiwanese single mother nirvana to me was like a h&m t-shirt you know I don't quite
know nirvana's discography and this is why I'm saying I'm living my best childhood now is because
I'm discovering all this great music anyway I had to learn heart-shaped box and the lyrics
in three days and I'm like oh my god I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this
and I was so stressed but when I looked up nirvana's lyrics and started learning this song
I realized oh this is gonna be so fucking easy because their lyrics are full-on and it just like
drills into your brain straight away you know there's some real graphic vulgar language being
used in nirvana but anyway that's that's my little funny story that I'll probably cop some hate for
not at all I think if you want an intro to go
listen to and it's a great three days to understand you know your your performance
I said I'm the least musical person I know people laugh at me actually even opening up
that's why I was making sure I got the pronunciation right but you can't help but
be moved by by that it is brilliant as I said I encourage you to check out all of
Jaguar Jones but I love that one in particular there's two questions I've been asking the
range of different leaders and to finish on I'd like to ask you both of them as well who's been
the greatest leader in your life?
um the greatest leader in my life I would say is my therapist um she gave me the nurturing
that I needed to come into the person that I am um I have I'm not really close to her
either because she's an incredible leader in her own space um and and so I've learned so much from
her and she's given me so much um and she's allowed me to take the reins on my own life
and to make incredible change um so she was the first person that popped up in my head and she's
just your everyday person you know she's not someone that's in the media she's not someone
that's um in the limelight of things she's on an island like bribey island I drive an hour and a
half to see her she's on an island like bribey island I drive an hour and a half to see her
because she's worth it um and she's making impact in her own way in her own circle and so
yeah I owe her so much. What a brilliant answer my mind was going as you were saying that Jaguar to
interviewed a young AFL captain called Marcus Bondenpelli he's 25 years of age and he's an
incredible young leader and and he referenced the sports psychologist in his world that just
it's such a happier place you know when I came through a very different generation to you
you would you wouldn't be able to do that without him.
You wouldn't have been open enough to even suggest that you'd seen that there might have been a
psychologist around but you would have thought oh no people are going to think I'm I'm falling
apart as opposed to this is making my life better and I and I need to talk about it openly so I love
I'm not surprised hearing it from you but from your generation it's it's such a powerful
stance that's so open now um if you could collaborate with anyone in the world in any
area of your life I'm assuming we might head to the music part but uh who would you collaborate
Oh I I actually would love to collaborate with Guy Ritchie
that could happen the film director Guy Ritchie the film director really I'm gonna put that out
there in the universe and manifest um yes uh because you know I I love music and I love art
but this unknown world that I want to discover more of
is film and the language of film um you know and the world building of film I'm obsessed I I at the
moment I'm directing and producing and editing my own music videos but that took some time for me to
really you know step into that and own that and now I'm realizing oh there's another medium and
you know this is coming back to me as a child you know living my childhood right now the amazing
thing I feel like adults forget is um
that like willingness to try things without shame and going for it that's the world I'm in right now
where I used to just be like oh no no no I'm not made for that I can't do that or I might wake up
tomorrow and feel that way about music too but right now I just want to learn more discover more
and so film film is where I want to just kind of tap into and I don't need to be in front of the
camera either but I would love to just dive deeper into it Guy Ritchie hello if you're listening at
I'm sure he's listening uh no doubt at all Jaguar and and two of my all-time favorite films Lockstock
and Two Smoking Barrels and his latest one I I love uh Guy Ritchie that would be a great
collaboration I I wasn't that you know I'm not I would have had any idea where you're going to go
but I know I know but the quirkiness the humor but then the depth you know I love I love that
that takes some brilliance and I think as a final note uh Jaguar Jones if we all had the courage
of our convictions to stand up for what we've done we would have done it we would have done it
we would believe in the way that you have against all odds uh and an enormous amount of risk to your
own career it's an amazing story of leadership where we started uh I've been inspired by
reading about it and really grateful that you were prepared to come and share with uh with me today
and look forward to following uh the journey with great interest I'm sure there's plenty of
exciting chapters to come thanks again for joining me today no thank you so much for
giving me the platform to share my story go get your white bread sausage
lunchtime you do I'm gonna go and do the same yeah do it go multi-grain though
empowering leaders was presented by me Luke Darcy produced by Matt Dwyer with audio production by
Darcy Thompson start your leadership journey I encourage you to go to elitacollective.com
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