Hunter Johnson Redefining Masculinity1

a listener production. I generally enjoy this week's conversation on the Empowering Leaders

podcast. It's with the founder of the Man Cave, Hunter Johnson. The Man Cave is an incredible

not-for-profit that's changing the lives of young men around Australia. And you'll hear this right

throughout the conversation with Hunter, but I think it's their mission statement that says it

all. We're here to empower boys to become great men by providing them and their communities with

impactful programs, role models, and resources. The Man Cave is truly an incredible organisation.

Hunter has impacted tens of thousands of boys since the Man Cave was founded in 2016. It's a

conversation that I thought was remarkable, one I really loved and was inspired by as a father of

four to see the impact Hunter has right around Australia, but also around the world. He's been

recognised with awards and grants to support the organisation, the Man Cave. Maybe the ultimate

record.

Perhaps of meeting the Queen and collaborating with Prince Harry and Meghan Markle,

which is a really amazing story. Social ventures like the Man Cave and people like Hunter Johnson

who are involved in this space are really linked to the passion of mine and something that we are

exploring at Alita, an organisation founded with my great mate, Matt Wadowitz, where incredible

leaders come together to collaborate and learn from each other and open up about the world that

they share and sharing great learning and leading experiences.

If you're interested in this space, you can find it all at alitacollective.com. There are some

fantastic resources there. I would encourage you to check out our signature Alita Connect program

to get started and to understand how, like Hunter and the people at Man Cave, you're leading in your

world. Hunter Johnson is driven by a lifelong passion for social change through seeing the

impact of mental illness and domestic violence. He saw the need to work with young men at a

preventative level, empowering them to be able to do what they love. He saw the need to work with

themselves, their relationships and their community. Hunter co-founded the Man Cave in 2014

and has positively impacted tens of thousands of boys, parents and teachers across Australia

with programs that allow young men to explore and express their full humanity. The vision of the Man

Cave is to support a world in which every man has healthy relationships, contributes to his community

and reaches his full potential through empowering boys to become great men by providing them with

impactful programs, role models and resources.

Hunter, congratulations on the incredible work you do. You literally have changed the lives of

tens of thousands of young boys, turning them into healthy adults. Can I ask, where did that

passion and drive come from within you? Yeah, thanks. Well, first of all, it's so good to be

here and hang out. I've been looking forward to this for a while and excited to just unravel with

you. Great, mate. The passion, listen, I grew up in a family environment that, you know, I think

encouraged me to be useful and get up to something that matters. And I definitely

held against that for as long as possible and probably used my leadership abilities for

entertainment purposes more than anything else. And yeah, but I think it's one of those things

around family values as I got older and had more experiences and recognized what's important to me.

I just started to discover that I wanted to make a difference and I didn't necessarily know how to

at the beginning, but I just tried a bunch of things. And for me, it was, yeah, a pretty

important lesson that my grandfather really instilled in me, which was to,

you know, invest in experiences. And I think the amount of different experiences, one of the

things I've committed to doing every single year is to invest in a life-changing experience

and something that's off-brand for me. So something I would never do. So one year I did a,

I'm still cringing, did a stand-up comedy course at NIDA. And I'm not like a funny guy. It's not

like, you know, and I remember sitting there at the like original circle where everyone's talking

about why they're at this course and people like, you know, I'm really funny. And this person's like,

I've always wanted to be a comedian. And I'm like,

everything, my identity is telling me not to be here. I'm shitting myself, but I figured I'd

learn something. So I think through investing in different experiences, I got to discover what I

am really passionate about. And for me, that's really at this point in my life, supporting boys

on their journey into manhood, because I know it's not just about young men having a good life

themselves. It's their relationships, it's their communities and who they'll be in the world that

we engage with. I love that advice from your grandfather, invest in experiences. And it's

often, you know, we're quite often happy to spend time with people who are not as good as we are.

We spend money on things that don't mean a lot, but we are reluctant sometimes, aren't we,

to do something like you said. I mean, that's a pretty brave experience. But, and then I want

to go back to what you said before about you grew up in a family where it was expected that you were

going to do good. Can you break that down a bit for me? What was that like? You just felt growing

up that, hey, you need to find purpose in your life. How was that come across to you?

Yeah. So I guess I originally thought I was going to play professional sport. Like that,

I grew up in Sydney, so rugby was what I loved. And I built my

identity around that. Had a really serious life and life-threatening injury on the field when I

was about 16. And that was in retrospect, the worst, but also the best thing that ever happened

to me. And it kind of slowed me down off a path that I think I was heading down. And I definitely

wasn't being myself. You know, I was trying to just fit in with my mates and just play into a

lot of the boyish behavior, which I'm sure we're both familiar with at certain times. But yeah,

I think, you know, my dad is a psychologist,

so he's done a lot of work in high performance and high performing teams.

And my mom is an entrepreneur. She does a lot of work in artificial intelligence and now how

artificial intelligence and consciousness relate, which is, that's a whole other podcast in and of

itself. They split up when I was like two years old. So I kind of grew up with two different

worlds, but I think just the environment that my family created of being people who just

challenged the system and wanted to create a better world subtly just impacted me.

And then when I started to,

pop out of my education at school, I was like, right, what do I want to do? And, you know, for me,

it was going and working at places like the National Center of Indigenous Excellence in

Sydney. And again, it just blew my world open. I got to see, you know, my privilege, my whiteness,

the opportunity I've had. And then that just opened doors for me to realize that,

okay, I've got all these gifts. I do come from a background that, you know, as a white,

you know, sporty guy, that means I can move through the world and do certain things that

other people can't. Okay.

How am I going to put that to use? And that really opened up for me when I moved down to

Melbourne when I was about 21. And I started working at an organization called the Foundation

for Young Australians. And within two weeks, I was helping run indigenous leadership programs

in the Northern Territory, running an employment program for young asylum seekers and refugees

who'd just entered Australia to then learning about partnerships and business development.

And that's where it really opened up for me. And I worked out that doing well financially

and doing good socially,

and not mutually exclusive. And I think that's a really exciting thing that, you know,

I can get paid to make an impact in this world, not just be about making more and more and more

money. So that's kind of, I guess, the essence. And then really, it's just the power of the work

now, you know, getting to have authentic, beautiful conversations with teenage boys and

just seeing that, how much it changes their life. I'm like, oh, that's all the reward I need now.

And I love that path, isn't it? Because, you know, so much of what we're told at school,

and you'd be at the coalface of this is that, what do you want to be? And,

pick your path and your ATAR is so important. But you look at you sampling a range of different

things, you know, living the advice that your grandfather told, and that there's a fair bit of

diversity in that. And suddenly you've just stumbled across the essence of what you are

and to be able to turn that passion into something for good. And I love what you said at the end

there as well, Hunter, because I think there's this thing that a lot of us want to do good,

but we have our own families and we think, God, how am I going to support my family,

run a social venture or contribute in the meaningful way that you are? And you're saying

they're not mutually exclusive, but you're saying they're not mutually exclusive.

That you can earn and still live a good life and contribute at the same time. You've been

able to strike that balance? Yeah, I think it's independent to

people's own personality types and, you know, career ambitions, of course, you know, but I'm

probably one of those, I guess, the next generation coming through that, you know,

wants to create a better world. And I think, you know, for me, using a business mindset or

commercial mindset to solve social problems is really interesting. I'm like, well, that's a

good challenge I want to sink my teeth into. And yeah, I also think we've kind of grown up in this

like very Western context, which is like accumulate more or like the way to win the game is individual

success, you know, but I've just sat in enough rooms with, you know, some of the, you know,

very fortunately sat in enough rooms with some of the wealthiest people in this country. And I go,

oh, they don't have anything that you and I don't. And actually external validation is never going

to be the thing that fulfills you like internal validation does. And I think I was just really

lucky to see that.

In my early twenties. And it just came back to like, what is purpose? You know, what is my

purpose? How do I support others in fighting their purpose? And I think it's really service

is the gateway to that. It's like the best way to work out more of who you are because it's not

about you. Yeah, really profound thing for you to understand at such a young age. And, you know,

a lot of us never get there. So the fact that you've been able to dedicate, I want to dive into

that passion a little bit. I hear you talk a lot about, we've got to stop having conversations

about boys and girls. And I think that's a really good point. And I think that's a really good point.

And I think that's a really good point. And I think that's a really good point. And I think that's

a really good point. And I think that's a really good point. And I think that's a really good point.

And start having more conversations with these young men. And I know you're, you're really across

the, um, what I think is a national disgrace, the domestic violence stats and ever increasing in

recent time, you're really big about changing this narrative. Can you tell us, you know,

how you're going to go about solving it in your world? Yeah, well, let's just start with the stats

just so we got the baseline there. So it's, you know, one in three women is likely to experience

physical or sexual abuse in their lifetime. And then more than one woman every week in a

is killed through intimate male partner violence. And it's just crazy. Like we're in Australia,

like what is going on? And I think for me, that's, there's like a sense of like,

almost not like a duty, but a responsibility. And I think we talked about this recently around,

like, this isn't just for us. This is for our kids, kids, you know, like, how do we start

thinking through that mindset? And for me, yeah, I just say often, you know, when I hear the terms,

even toxic masculinity, I don't use that personally. I just feel like,

it's too divisive. But what I do think of is intergenerational trauma. You know, a lot of the

world, particularly in Australian, white Australian context, the men who have gone away to war,

you know, World War II and beyond, come back to Australia to integrate, carrying extreme levels

of trauma. And then that becomes how they parent, that becomes who they are in their workplaces.

That then is, you know, sometimes consciously and unconsciously transmissioned onto their kids.

And then their kids grow up with that as a model of masculinity, right? And I just think we're at

a time where we're, you know, a mythologist who I love, a guy called Michael Mead, talks about,

we're in between stories. So what was, you know, the model of masculinity for, you know, our fathers

or grandfather's generation is different to us now. Something new is being required, but we're

kind of discovering, it's kind of, we're alive, you know, like this is an active conversation.

And I think it's like, we just got to keep bringing it to the surface and have the space to have

really messy, politically incorrect conversations, because it's the only way we're going to learn.

And I think, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

you know, whether it is the systems around domestic violence, gender equality, or mental

illness, so much funding, so much funding goes to crisis management. And I'm like, why don't we go

preventative? Why don't we go and focus on boys' strengths rather than their deficits? That is

going to create a very different future for these young men who feel inspired and hopeful, opposed

to growing up with a narrative that they're all bad and wrong and they need to be fixed.

I want to come back to that term toxic masculinity, get your thoughts on that.

But I think you sum it up really well, and it resonates incredibly strongly with me. And,

you know, without, you know, having to get too deep into the political world, crisis

is where funding goes, because it gets the most attention, it gets the headlines.

But as we know, it's the sugar hit for the short term. It's important too, when people are in

crisis, we need to support them. But that early intervention, preventative programs that are a

generational change, what you're talking about is getting to 12 and 13 year olds, giving them

better language, understanding them better. And, and the evidence, the evidence, the evidence, the

evidence is when you do, are you seeing meaningful change when you get in with a man cave into

schools and run those programs? Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, just on that, we learn from

people we respect. And I think for us, the model is using super diverse, very relatable male

facilitators who go into high schools across the country. And they're like that cooler cousin that

your family get together, you know, who you just want to sit next to, and you just want them to

ask you how you're going, you know? And, and I think the lesson that we've found, particularly

boys who have grown up in a really confusing time of masculinity, where it's, you know, toughen up,

don't cry, don't be gay, don't be like a girl. But now it's like, cry more often, be more vulnerable,

you know, you're privileged, you've had it so good for so long, you're part of the patriarchy.

You know, as for men, we're like, fuck, how do we even navigate this? You know, let alone teenage

boys and everything else that's going on, plus social media. So our whole thing is, you know,

finding people who these boys are inspired by, and they want to be like, and the lesson there

that we found is often the messenger is as important, if not more important than the message,

which is a really different way to how teaching is traditionally done. And so for us, we've now

worked with, you know, 30,000, probably 35,000 young men across the country, and it's growing

huge demand. And the whole thing for us is creating spaces of psychological safety for

these boys where they feel probably for the first time in their life, safe enough to take off the

mask they're wearing and start to open up and sit opposite their best mate and be like, this bloke's

been my best mate for five years. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's

just learned more about him in five minutes than five years of our friendship. And what we're now

starting to see as these boys are developing levels of emotional literacy, they're able to

take responsibility for their behavior. And suddenly they're not living into the script

that the media writes for them, which is young men are a problem to be solved. And that's the

scary thing I think is like often the stories we're told are what we become, and it kind of

becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And so what we're really trying to do is like create this

positive future state for masculinity that men can get around, women can get around, and men can get

around, non-binary people can get around. And it's inspiring because that's just not a public

narrative that's out there right now. Yeah. It's interesting to hear, I mean,

sum that up incredibly well, just how confusing it is. The needle goes from one extreme to the

other extreme. And as you said, for 47-year-old adults, it's confusing. It's challenging.

You're nervous now with a microphone in front of you, not that you intend to say something that's

going to upset anyone, but it's so nuanced now that you're almost going to be like,

are you lucky to get through without trying to upset people? That's how delicate it seems it's

become. But fascinating to hear you say that it's more powerful is actually the messenger than the

actual message. So how do you find those role models with the values that clearly come out of

you? That must be challenging. And you really feel as though the messenger's the key, is it?

Yeah, absolutely. We have about 35 facilitators now who are very diverse and intersectional in

their backgrounds. These are guys, over the years,

it's ranged from First Nations people to former refugees and asylum seekers to Melbourne hipsters

to footie jocks to drama kids to musos that represent effectively the diversity of masculinity.

So that if we put these facilitators in front of a classroom of, it might be young Islamic men,

they see someone like them, they go, shit, that's possible. I can be like that. And yeah,

the really important thing for us is we train these guys like a sports team. They're walking

into rooms of teenage boys who have- Yeah.

Amazing bullshit detectors. They sniff you out a mile away. They will test you to see if you can

hold it. And it's a rowdy group of boys. That's one of the hardest things to capture the attention of,

let alone get them to talk about their feelings afterwards.

It's a high bar when you sum it up like that, isn't it?

Yeah, big time. And remember high school. High school's intense. High school's about a social

hierarchy. You work out who you need to be. You play that persona. Sometimes that works for people,

sometimes that doesn't. And for us, a really important thing we've had to train,

to be discerning about with our facilitators, is this isn't people coming back for their own

therapy. This isn't them coming back to come in on a shining horse with the armor on. It's like,

no, we're here to do the best job we can possibly do. And yet we get some great recognition and

support out of it. But there are people who are doing a lot more intense work on the front line

to support humanity than us that do not get the recognition or attention. So come in and be really

humble about this. So yeah, one of the, I think learning, I didn't grow up knowing what a

facilitator was. I didn't grow up knowing what a facilitator was. I didn't grow up knowing what a

even how you can host this. It's a full skill set. And there's a difference between presenting

and facilitating too. Presenter might come in with a PowerPoint presentation that takes you

through a script. A facilitator has the ability to withdraw out information, which actually is like

the epidemiology of the word educator, is to draw out, not to put in, which is actually very

different to how we educate people. And so for us, training people on how to facilitate, so they can

walk into a room of these teenage boys and understand who's the jock that just wants a

bit of power, you know, that wants to be the center of attention. How do you mobilize him for,

you know, leadership abilities, not just in, as we were joking before, in entertainment ways,

but in, you know, leadership ways. Who's the kid who's, you know, the quiet observer at the back

that doesn't offer much, but when he does, it's gold. Or who's the kid that's going to derail the

classroom because he's an oversharer. You eventually get to work out these patterns

just from FaceTime with the boys. And you learn how to take them on a journey basically to

creating an environment where they feel safe to be themselves, which a lot of them,

haven't felt because they're mostly exist in a culture of banter.

Yeah. And it's such, as you said, you go back, it's a, it can be a brutal environment as we

know, and it's where it does get lost. And sometimes some of those young boys don't

ever get it back because of what happens in that environment. And that happens in all

parts of the country. I want to go back to the needle going too far. There was a story

recently in a Victorian school where they made all the boys stand up. I can see you nodding.

It's a story I'm sure you know, and turn to their female colleagues and apologize

for effectively being male. I mean, I'm sure that that's not helpful. Is that,

I'm sure the intentions are good. Is that's what's happening too often now is that we're

over-correcting in some ways to try and address this problem. Do you feel that way?

I don't think there's an easy answer to this. I think it's really layered and nuanced. And I think,

yeah, in that circumstance, there was a lot of backlash, you know, from these boys who felt like

they were just, they weren't part of the group of boys who would, you know, cause the issue at the

school. But it's also really layered, right? Because we are, you know, we're not, you know, we're not

in a group of boys who would, you know, cause the issue at the school. But it's also really layered, right?

Because we are in a system which is called the patriarchy, which effectively

means that the things are designed in a way that benefits men. But the challenging thing is we've

been born into that. Like we, you and I didn't choose that, but we're kind of in it. And it also,

the, I think what gets lost when, even when we talk about the patriarchy, the big scary word

that it is, is that some people can interpret it going that it's their life isn't hard, you know,

things haven't been a struggle for them. And that's not the conversation.

It's a conversation around privilege. And my journey with privilege, you know, as a white dude

is really just kind of understanding that privilege isn't necessarily a dirty word,

but it's, it's how I use it. Right. And I think often they say that privilege is invisible to

those who have it. So for my friends who are people of color in, when they walked into a room,

you know, sorry, when they looked into a mirror, when they were younger, they saw someone who was

brown. Whereas I was probably mid twenties before I even registered that I was white, you know,

consciously. Right. I just thought that's how things were. So I think we've got a long way to

kind of move through this very edgy, very emotional, very personal space around

where masculinity is up to, because one of the things that I think is important is it might not

be our fault that we're born into a system like this, but I do think it is our responsibility

to do something around creating a more equal world. And that doesn't have to be, you know,

this big, huge thing. It can just be who you are in your relationship,

in your family, in your friendships. And I think just starting there.

And we always think that's a great place to start Hunter, isn't it? That ability to impact

positively. And, and you're right. I mean, I'm in that exact bracket as you, you know,

sporting background, white male, haven't got the slightest understanding really what it's like to

not live your world because it's very hard to, isn't it? And you like to think you have empathy

and you want to have these conversations, but you're right. I mean, it's that privilege still

feels as though then it becomes a slur almost as opposed to, well, it's just sort of the reality.

It doesn't mean you can't meaningfully have an impact and try and understand and try and have

better empathy. I said, we'll come back to the term toxic masculinity because it's a,

it's a hot one that isn't it? And I like your, and this is to me, the thing that's the art that's

been lost is having uncomfortable conversations and where does it sit? I mean, do you comfortable

with that word and what it means? Uh, listen, I get, it's really important

for certain people given the life experiences and probably the, you know, trauma or abuse

they may have experienced because it becomes, you know, language is a tool and it can be used

as a tool to agitate in which to have uncomfortable and messy conversations. So I get, I get the point

of it and what it represents. I think where the nuance often gets lost, particularly with teenage

boys and a lot of men is this assumption that it's like a brush that means that all men are

toxic. And it's, it's my understanding is that's not the intention of it. The intention of it is

to identify that there are some toxic behaviors, um, that are part of probably

some more traditional masculine beliefs around being a man is about conquest, power, control,

dominance, individual success, believing in very rigid gender norms, you know, being homophobic.

Um, you know, your masculinity is like how good you are at sport or how good looking you are or

how much money you make, right? Well, these are kind of traditional marketing things more than

anything else. And I think what we're starting to evolve out of now is going, okay, well,

how do we develop more range in our masculinity? You know, how is it that we can be stoic,

but the next day we can be vulnerable and this becomes a practice. It's a training ground.

And yeah, I think for me, you know, one of the things, you know, with the workshops we run,

I remember when the term first came out, you know, a female teacher at a school

pulled me aside and was like, oh, these boys are all toxic. And I was like, okay,

we'll just be really like careful with that term because have you actually explained to them what

toxic masculinity means? And when you say that and she goes, no, I go, okay. So let me, let's

pause the whole session here. Hey, fellas, can I get you to raise your,

and if you've heard of the word toxic masculinity or words, they all burst out laughing. And I'm

like, all right. I'm like, who knows what it means? No hands go up. There's 50 boys just

sitting there, but then they can make an assumption of what it means. And then they live into it.

Because if they're going to be told they're naughty, they're going to be naughty. Right.

And I think one of the things that particularly around teenagers is when you're told not to do

something, that's like the gateway to go do it, you know? And I think, you know, if these boys

are being told, you know, be good boys, but you know, don't be like that, they're going to,

try and flex their, you know, identity in different ways. And, you know, that's probably

something which I assume you would have talked about on the Anna Rubenstein podcast as well.

Yeah. And, um, yeah, good point to, uh, to jump in there. The, uh, the family connection with,

uh, with Anna and I had the, um, great pleasure the day I was out at, uh, his property and I love

that catch up. It had so much reflection for me as a, as a father of four and, you know,

the rites of passage. If you haven't heard Anna's podcast, I encourage you to go and do it. It is

so much wisdom in, in how to, um, raise teenagers and bringing back the rites of passage. And, um,

I know his partner is your mother and I got, I got to see you, uh, that day. How much, um,

has he influenced you in, in, in this stage of your life? Cause it feels like your work

is pretty, uh, pretty close, uh, cousins. Yeah. That's, it's funny. We, um, there's

definitely something higher going on. We both joke around. We're like, no idea how this has

happened, but we're here. Um, but yeah, so I, when I was, when man cave was just a concept,

you know, when I was like 21 and I remember I pitched at some event and this guy was like,

you got to go meet this guy, Anna Rubenstein. And I was like, who? I couldn't even pronounce

his name. Like Arnie Rubenstein, like, sorry, done a Ted talk, written a book. I was like,

okay, this seems pretty legit. And, uh, anyway, I caught up with him in this like dingy cafe in

Sydney. And, uh, first thing he said to me was, what's your story? I was like, who is this guy?

And, um, anyway, that was kind of the inception of our, I guess, relationship was him, um, going,

well, you should come up to my property and do my rites of passage leadership.

Training. And that opened up a whole world for me because I remember we ran this,

he took us through a rite of passage and a rite of passage for anyone who hasn't listened is

effectively a structured transition from one state to another. And it could be, um, a rite

of passage could be, you know, a bar mitzvah or a wedding, um, or it can be intentionally designed

to transition from one state of psychology to the next, which was used to initiate particularly

young men into their manhood for effectively eons, right? It's a technology of human nature

is how I relate.

And we obviously don't have a lot of rite of passage in our context now. It's kind of like

go to schoolies, get drunk first time, might be doing drugs, whatever it is.

And that was his point that if you don't formalize it, we make it up as kids and that's what plays

out, isn't it? Your rite of passage is schoolies week or, or the crazy behavior that we all probably

went down the path without it being formalized. Yeah. So that was, that was the genesis really

of where you started with Man Cave, wasn't it? Yeah, exactly. So I kind of had this concept.

I didn't really know where to begin, went to the training. And I remember

one of the final components of a rite of passage is to, is an honoring. So you go through this big

experience, huge challenge. You create a vision for who you want to be after you let go of the

behaviors you want to step into. And then there's an honoring. And at the end of the honoring,

I remember I was in front of this guy who just made a huge impact on me. And I realized I couldn't

even articulate what I wanted to feel. I felt this like emotional block. I was like, I don't

have bloody language to tell him. I'm like, I need to go look at this. Like, I can't speak.

And that was like the moment.

Where like the kind of, I got cracked open a bit. I was like, okay, there's something here. My soul

has been drawn to something bigger, higher than me. And I don't know why, but I have to keep going

down this path. And so, yeah, I've, I've, you know, run some of the most incredible or been a

part of some of the most incredible experiences of my life with, you know, with Onana's property

and Yarra Kura up behind Mullumbimby with, you know, 50 men and the boys in their lives,

taking them through a four day rite of passage. And it is truly magical. Like if I,

I was probably skeptical of is magic real, you know, previously, but what I've seen

is truly, truly incredible. And it's really interesting because a lot of the, um, the men

think they're taking the boys there for the boys, but it is as profound and special for the men,

if not more. Can't wait to experience it. And, uh, I'm looking forward to, I've got two in that

zone still that, uh, I'm, uh, I'm on the path to, to having been at the property and seen,

as you said, there is something magic about just walking up the driveway.

And, and then, um, he ends up with your mom as well. So

I know. So yeah, I remember somehow they got connected and, um, he was like, Hey,

I keep hearing about your mom. I'm like, that's weird. I was like, well, I guess if you're a

mentor of mine, that's pretty good criteria. Mom was single at the time. So they've since

been together for about seven or eight years now. Ah, brilliant. I love it. Uh, can I ask you,

there'll be a lot of parents listening to this and, you know, we want our kids to be

emotionally intelligent. We want them to be resilient and, and that's the space you deal

in every day. What do you, what do you say to parents? How do we raise particularly our young

boys? That's your space to be emotionally intelligent and resilient. First of all,

as you are the role model, they are always watching. And I think we, as a society get

very good at telling people things, but actually living the values and the actions. Like it's that

whole concept of deeds, not words is the most important thing. So they're always,

always watching. Right. And one of the most powerful things as a parent is to admit your

faults. If you've made mistakes to let go of any pride and use that as teachable moments inside of

your relationship with the kids in your life, that is deeply profound and deeply healing because they

get to see you as yes, a parent, but also as a person and that role models to them from a very

young age that it's okay to take responsibility for your behavior. Excuse me. Second thing is,

is sharing your story. You know, what was life like?

And you were, you know, five, six, 15, 25, not through the lens of philosophizing or giving

life advice, but genuinely, what were some of the things that happened to your life that shaped who

you are and your character? And then the third thing I'll say is seeing their unique gifts and

talents. So again, coming back to this concept of honoring or acknowledging them, not validating

them for their performance. Like, you know, Johnny did a good job because he kicked six goals on the

weekend, but actually had Johnny, you know, I saw how you treated your friend the other day. And I

respect your kindness. I love seeing that side of you. So this whole concept of getting kids to

understand that their internal validation of themselves, first of all, is the most important

thing. But if you can internally validate the things about their character, that's so important.

External validation is just very temporary. We know this. So I think they're just three low

hanging fruit. Well, I think that's a sort of parenting masterclass in lots of ways. And it's

the parenting puzzle, I call it, because you want to always describe it as the thing that you think

most, or certainly do. And you want to be as profoundly good at it as anything, but often

you're fumbling your way through. But it resonates with me, putting your hand up when you get it

wrong. And that's something Beck and I have always tried to do. It probably wasn't something past

generations had in their repertoire at all. And it's incredibly powerful because we do get it

wrong. You blow up or you yell at them and you know you overstepped the mark. But when you actually

sit down and just say, hey, look, I got that wrong. I'm really sorry. I had a bad day. And we did.

That is a really profound thing.

Likewise, isn't it? Over-celebrating the moments as opposed to just the qualities that you see.

You see a lot of that in the junior sporting world that you see. There's just so much focus

on achievement as opposed to the character that you talk about.

I think just the other bit I'll jump in there, Luke, is anger is really important. And anger

gets really shut away in our society. Anger is an important part of our emotional range as a human.

And I think role modeling,

that we sometimes do get angry and things do kind of open up and potentially explode. But you also

have the ability to come back and recognize that and go, well, that wasn't who I wanted to be in

that moment. But I'm not going to hide this away from you. This is who I am. And of course,

be responsible with your anger, of course. But understanding that that isn't something to just

suppress because then that manifests in some really unhealthy ways that we see later in life

too. And again, it's just practice. It's not about being a polished parent. It's just about

being a parent of character.

Yeah. Well said again, isn't it? It's funny that the anger part is the thing I reckon I always

helpful when you're playing AFL football. Not so helpful sometimes when you're losing your cool

around the home. And that's something I've wrestled with. But you're right. If someone's

breaking the door down in the house, you don't want to have forgotten your anger because that's

appropriate. And sometimes it's appropriate, as you said, around the house. It's when you're,

as you said, not pretending it's not there or not part of who you are. As you said,

that suppression becomes a challenge. And that guilt sort of,

the cycle kicks in a bit then.

Yeah. And I think as well, for masculinity, where we're up to now, life is very sterile. We're not

out doing the things that we used to do. And I think there is this inherent desire in men to

push ourselves, to be in extreme circumstances, to feel this deep sense of brotherhood, which

often we do get through sport, but often that trails off for so many people. But there's still

this desire. So I think for me, there's this beautiful quote that you don't give a sword to

a man who can't dance.

And I really love that, right? Because for me, it talks to this balance of like,

if the man is in touch with himself and he's got range and he can be playful and silly and creative,

but also he can step into, if he needs to be dangerous to protect his family, then that's

something that's important. And I think it's just because we also hear so many very horrific

stories around men who have been really irresponsible with their masculinity and

their violence, that then a lot of it gets shut away. But like,

I know for me, and I assume with you, sport was an incredible training ground for understanding my

body, understanding the physicalness inside of who I am. And I loved it. But again, if we look

back at humanity, that's been an important part of masculinity forever, is training, wrestling,

hunting, going out to protect is a really important part of who we are. And it's only

in very recent times that things have been really sterilized and we just watch Netflix.

Well, I love that you brought that up. And my mind's going to Steve Biddulph,

the brilliant author of Raising Boys, Raising Girls. He sold over 4 million copies of probably

globally one of the most renowned authors in the space of how we bring up our kids. And he talks

about audience of women and what they want out of a male partner in these days. And he breaks it

down beautifully. I think about this all the time. It's like, we do want to see that empathy and we

want that care and genuine connection. But you listen to him at the same time, they go, I don't

want a guy soft. I want a guy...

He breaks it down to heart and to backbone. So if you can have those two sides to you,

it's very possible. You still want to have that strength. You want to have some go and you want

to have, as you said, the protector of your family. It's not a bad thing to have as part of,

but is the heart there with it? It's not a bad way to think about it, I think.

Yeah. And it's interesting, even in... So Brene Brown, who you might be familiar with,

does a lot of work around vulnerability and courage. I remember in her book, Daring Greatly,

she talked about interviewing a bunch of women if they actually

want to be a part of the family. And I think that's a really good thing.

Yeah. I think that's a really good thing. I think that's a really good thing. I think that's a really good thing.

A lot of the women said no. So again, this is this kind of confusing time where it's like,

no, I want my man to be stoic and strong, but then also at times, maybe I don't want that.

I want him to be in touch with his masculinity and hold himself together, but maybe I do want

it to be open. So again, I just use that as an example of like, it's just really late.

I don't think there's this one clean answer. It's like, we're moving through this time in

that helped us get from A to B previously and not necessarily the models we need to get forward

now. There's a great example in my mind, and I hope this will remain timeless given the interview,

but the AFL grand final has just happened. And I feel like sports transformed itself.

The senior coaches now have really moved away from the old hierarchy of coaches and a lot of

personal abuse. And we sort of laugh about it now, but it was pretty crazy. You probably would

experience it as well, but they're really empathetic. Joel Selwood's the person who's

a premiership captain in Geelong. If you haven't, go and look up Joel Selwood and look at him on

grand final. One of the bravest, toughest warriors that ever played our game. One of the greatest

players of all time. But his thought process grand final day was taking out Gary Ablett,

his teammate's child, who's got severe genetic illness. So post grand final, their water boy is

a beautiful young down syndrome boy. He spent the next 10 hours we find with Joel. He rang his mom

on the ground and said, Hey, I've got a problem. I've got a problem. I've got a problem. I've got a

problem. I've got, I can't think of the young boy's name. Wish I could at the moment, but you

know, you go, that is sort of a living, breathing example, authentically understanding that brilliant

heart and as tough and brave as you can come. So it's out there. We're seeing those, as you said,

the examples we need to share more often, don't you? Because when it is as brilliant as that,

it's a pretty profound thing to see for sure. I just love those stories so much, right? And

particularly with these people that transcend the game, you know, like it becomes about,

you know, humanity and like just wholesomeness opposed to, yeah, grand final awesome. But like,

think about what this means to the family, the kids, you know, the guy who walked up into the

crowd who has down syndrome that he hugged, you know, like all of that, just so profound.

And I think we are starting to say that, which is a really interesting thing to note. Like,

you know, I think even LeBron James in the NBA, how, what he does outside of the sport is

incredible for supporting black and minority communities. But at the same time, like,

I know there's that like Sonny Bill Williams example when they won the,

well, cup, the All Blacks, he walked over, this kid jumped the fence in the stadium and he gives

him his medal. Security guards were wrestling the kid to the ground. That's right. And I remember

that it's, they're profound moments, aren't they? For sure. I want to talk, you know, Hunter,

about, you know, a lot of people have the idea of wanting to do good and then you start a not

for profit. That is no easy thing to do. And you've got to get funding. And I want to talk

about what you're doing now. You're creating your own brand, cool stuff. You've got some serious,

uh, investors, a couple of former Wallabee captains on board your investment group. Tell

us about the complexity of, of what you're doing and how you're going about it. Yeah. I love talking

about this because I think, you know, the speaking from the heart space, like we've done just is

awesome. But also like, I love, you know, problem solving and I love the concept of how do we

leverage business to create a better world for everyone. And, um, so Man Cave, Man Cave's a

charity. We're about 60% funded by philanthropy, high net worth grants, about 35% of our,

income comes from charging schools on their socioeconomic status. So private schools will

pay a premium. Um, or we work with regional and lower socioeconomic schools that pay a subsidy.

And then about 5% is like community fundraising. So about four years ago, I was like, right,

how do we diversify our income streams? We've got all this demand. Like it actually came after I got

an award from the queen, which was amazing. Um, I was over in Buckingham palace and got to meet

the queen, got to meet the queen. It was a live stream through the Royal family's Facebook page.

I didn't know they had, but, um, yeah, literally in Buckingham palace. And it was like, you know,

a black gospel choir behind me. It was like, I remember this moment. I, um, as I'm walking up,

like knowing it's on national TV in the UK and back in Australia, it was about four years ago.

And I'm walking out the very front. I'm just panicking. I'm going to faint. And I'm just

going, Oh, come on. And I remember going, all right, look over, you walk in the front,

you're about to like meet the queen, bow down. She'll say a few words to you.

And I look over and there's like the former prime minister. There's like, um,

um, Harry, uh, Prince Harry, Meghan Markle, uh, a few Olympians. And then I see David Beckham

and I'm like, epic. And I'm like, okay, do the right thing. Look at everyone as they're looking

at you. They'll probably look at the Royal family. I just look at Beckham straight away. And then he

just winks at me and I just twitch back at him. I was like, Oh God, I was just crushed.

Well, there's a moment ever. And, um, but yeah, you know, after that award, um, I got one of the

other name of it came up to me and said, Harry would like to meet you. And they just showed the

man cave video in Buckingham palace. And I joke that the Australian accent has never sounded more

Bogan moment there, but it was memorable. And, um, so I got taken into this room and, um, Prince

Harry and Meghan Markle walked in and they knew everything we're doing at the man cave. Harry

really got it from a mental health perspective. Cause you know, his journey, which we, we only

see the tabloid version, you know, him losing his mom when he was like six and then like going on

his own mental health journey. Um,

but in the public eye, then going and serving in Afghanistan on the front line, then he sets up,

um, uh, uh, the, he's a chair of the Commonwealth youth foundation. So largely the Commonwealth,

which is like 2.3 billion people, 50 odd countries, largely developing countries. So he's on the front

line meeting these people. Then he comes back and sets up Invictus games. Like we don't hear that

story. And then, you know, he chooses his family values, his intimate family values over the system

that he's inherited. So it's just a very different narrative. Anyway. So I'm speaking, I'm going,

this guy's a legend. And, um, then Megan Markle comes over. She's like, listen, I really love

this from a gender equality perspective. Like, let us know how we can help. I was like, what do you

respond to that? And that brought a lot of attention for us. And so I was like, great. Okay.

We've got schools across the world coming to us. Like we're still pretty young charity. How the

hell do we capitalize on this? And so at the time I saw a lot of social impact businesses starting to

be born, like, thank you. He gives a crap, Tom organic. And I was like, right,

there's nothing in the masculinity space. All the marketing is super misogynistic, very old,

you know, spray yourself with a double can of wings. You know, the girls have come chasing you

and we, we both know that doesn't work. Um, and you know, all the old spice guy, you know, on the

horse and it's like, it's so silly, but it's like, you know, ages of like 12, you know, 11, 12 years

old boys are, you know, being exposed to that. And we wonder where this like real subtle

objectification begins. Yeah. And you laugh at it, don't you? But you, you, you laugh at

ridiculous, but, but yeah, subliminally, as you said, it becomes reality, doesn't it? And I love

what, so your idea is to tap into that space stuff as a brand and, and use, you know, some of the

proceeds of that to fund the man cave. Exactly. Tell it what sort of products you get getting

into. Yeah. So we, we effectively early days were like, right, it has to be a commercial product.

We know that at the end of the day, good marketing just helps a bad product fail faster. And we can't

rely on the fact we have a social purpose. It's got to be really high quality. And I

did a lot of research and saw that the men's grooming space hadn't been disrupted in a while,

but huge potential, no real Australian brands out there that are doing like what I would say

a job that reflects modern masculinity really well. And, um, that was the inception. And so,

yeah, basically I've been very, very lucky to work with people who've worked in some of the

biggest brands in Australia and pull them in both to work in staff as a staff member or an investor,

you know, have worked at ESOP, you know, Mecca, Thank You, Afterpay, Country Road, Swiss,

Meyer. So they've worked in brands before and I've managed to pull them by the values and get

them to work with us at stuff. And effectively we chose the name cause it's super simple and,

you know, stuff for your pits, stuff for your face, stuff for your head and body. And

basically, yeah, we, uh, we launched in, uh, February last year. Uh, we've now secured

distribution through Woolies, which is awesome. Like really good to do after just about a year

and a bit of being in the wild. Huge effort. Huge effort. And, um, yeah, so basically we've got,

um, uh, moisturizers,

face scrub, face wash, shaving gel, um, body wash shampoos, deodorants, and we're soon to release

an SPF in, in coming for summer. Um, Ian Thorpe has just come on as an investor, uh, an ambassador

as well, just given his story, super aligned. And, um, what I've really tried to curate from

an investor point of view is like really values aligned investors and, you know, a saying,

which I'm sure you're familiar with, if it's kind of summarizes it, it was really like a no dickhead

policy. So just like people who are in this, yes, um, to, um, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to,

you know, do good, but also there's opportunity for commercial return. And so how we set up the

business is that man cave, the charity is the largest shareholder in the business. The rest

is split between the investors. And then for every thousand dollars in sales, it'll fund a boy from a

low socioeconomic community to go through the man cave. So really we just give consumers that point

of purchase decision going, I can choose, you know, links or old spies or whatever it may be,

or I can choose, uh, stuff, which I know will help a boy become a better man. That's actually

about his relationships too.

Brilliant idea. And, and I love it. It's, uh, as you said, you've given some serious thought to it

and, and then to be able to bring in that quality of, uh, of Lido, you know, we spoke before you

catching up with the CEO of, uh, of Woolworths in the coming weeks to get a product into Woolworths

is a, is a huge F at the same time. And it's, it's inspiring Hunter because, you know, you can

tell you started fully with purpose and to use your problem solving brain at the same time. It's,

uh, it's profound. How do, how do people get involved? Is it simple as just, you know, if you

see it, make the choice, buy the product?

Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. I think absolutely. Yeah. It's like we sell, obviously have our own website as

well. It's literally called www.websiteofstuff.com. And so that's like the direct to consumer route,

but yeah, we're in, in Woolies at the moment. We're in the final stages, fingers crossed that

we confirm, uh, a major pharmacy channel as well. We're in shaver shop, uh, too. So if you see it,

yeah. And then, um, just tag us there. Cause we're really trying to create again, using the power

of consumerism, you know, even in the marketing, we use all our man cave facilitators. So really

creating this like really positive groundswell for men and masculinity. And one of the things

which I'm doing now, as I'm in it, I mentioned to you in a capital raise at the moment is working

with a bunch of athletes or people who have been previously athletes to bring them in, you know?

So how do we use people that people are inspired by, you know, the community is inspired by to go,

these are the role models, the men of character that we want to kind of help us get to this next

stage for masculinity. So, you know, I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

yeah, very much, um, yeah, an open invitation for anyone's interested just to reach out.

We see, uh, leadership in the world that we're passionate about Hunter and love talking to

leaders and doing stuff like you're doing in such a unique way, but there's some genuine, uh,

dimensions that we think are really common with leaders. I'd love to ask you about them

starting with self-leadership. We don't think you can really lead others unless you've got

an idea of self-leadership. Does that make sense to you? Uh, literally? Yes.

So

That's interesting, right? So I'm fascinated because I think personal development is like

what the old spiritual development used to be. And I think, you know, looking back at history,

I think religions kind of become the middleman between us and spirituality. And that may really

work well for some people, but for some people not. But if we go back pre-organized religion,

one of the foundational teachings of spirituality was know thyself, which literally that's like as

pure as it gets. And so for me, absolutely. The journey I'm on is that like the better care I

take of myself, the better I can serve others. And that's been really tough because I'm just so

used to just putting others first. Like it's, I don't know, it's a family thing, I guess.

I had to really come back and go, okay, if I'm not taking care of myself, then my cup is empty.

But when my cup is full, it overflows. I can share that with others. And yeah, I have a lot of

personal, I guess, reflection practices because yeah, I fundamentally believe that the more I

kind of support and heal myself, not as if like I'm broken or fixed or need to be fixed,

but the better person I can be. And my partner, she's an amazing yoga teacher. She shared with me

this quote, which is just always stuck with two things, actually. One, that your energy introduces

you before you speak, which I think is so profound. It's so true. Like we just know,

like we really know. And the second is the body whispers before it screams. I love that too,

because my journey coming from contact sport was just keep pushing through. And I've had to become

and the intelligence of my body and my gut. So a lot of my journey now is listening to my gut,

not my mind. And what I've found is my mind is awesome at thinking in like logic and past,

present and future and trying to problem solve, but it's limited. Whereas I find my gut is like

my subconscious. So my subconscious is always taking in all my surroundings. And often my gut

feeling is my instinct. And it knows which way to go. It might not be logical, but I'm starting to

really lean into that going, I'm just going to back my gut here. And

there might be some short-term discomfort, but I'm backing it in. And it's really been quite

profound, the results that have come from it. It's fascinating to hear you say that. There's

lots of people I've had the great privilege of speaking to really come back to that. All the

times they've made great decisions, it's been on that pure gut instinct. And anytime they've gone

away from that is where they've got themselves into trouble or they've aligned themselves with

someone that didn't have the same values. Nicole Gibson is an incredible young Australian. Love

out loud is her community. You would have heard of Nicole's stuff.

She's brilliant. She's creating some tech around. We've all got our phones attached to us

around how you can actually get some data on making decisions from your gut. And we can

measure that now, can't we, with heart rate and with the dilation of your pupils and all that.

So she's doing some amazing stuff in that space. I'm not surprised that you went there in that

world. The things that you're tackling, changing masculinity, talking about having an impact on

domestic violence, a huge thing. Nicole Gibson is an incredible young Australian. Love out loud is her

The next dimension I want to talk to you about is how you go about positively impacting others

in your environment. But what you said before made sense to me is that they're big things,

but every day we can have an impact on someone close to us. How have you thought about that in

your day-to-day world? First thing is actually just having a

conversation with my partner, Loz, around how I can better support her. Literally, it starts there.

What am I doing? Or how can I better be of service inside of our relationship?

Like even having that conversation where I thought I was really good and helping out in all the ways

that I thought I could. And yeah, she just gave me some real low-hanging fruit. I was like, oh shit,

sorry. But like that's, you know, just like what? Can you give me an example? Oh, this is super

basic. But so I travel a bit for work. And so when I come home, I just like really like chill it out.

And, you know, she was just like to me, when you just come back home, even if you've been traveling,

if you literally just take two minutes to just clean up the whole place, that means so much to

me. And I was like, oh, I'm going to do that. And she was like, I'm going to do that. And I was like,

I just kind of clean when like, I feel like I'm ready and I'm not a dirty guy at all. But like,

you know, or we have a conversation, I do it. She's like, yeah, but it's just these acts of

service that become like a load off my mind. And so I know that's like a really basic thing,

but that's been huge. The other big thing is like inside of when she's dealing with a problem,

actually just asking her, hey, what type of conversation would you like to have here?

Would you like me to help you solve this? Or would you like me just to listen?

That has been a game changer because my, you know, usual approach previous years was like,

let me help you solve this. This is my way of helping, contributing. She's like, I don't want

that. I just want to unravel here. I want you to hold space for me. I'm like, wow, I reckon a few

of my mates could learn from this one. Yeah. You know, I'm learning. I'm writing that down,

mate, isn't it? As males, we want to solve problems, don't we, all the time. And sometimes

your partner looking at you going, just stay out of it. Yeah. Like not for you this time.

Yeah. And we forget to ask too, don't we? We forget to ask, you know, what can we do better?

A good distinction there is this concept of permission versus trespass. So permission is,

hey, Loz, do you mind if I ask you a few more questions? Or, hey, how can I best support you

here? Right? So I'm seeking permission from her where she keeps the power. Whereas trespass is

really me just overstepping her boundaries and making assumptions and just going in with whatever

my contribution answer offering is, right? And that's often where the friction can be. So I found

that to be like a nice little mental model that's just like, all right, permission versus trespass.

Yeah. It's huge, isn't it? And you think of, you know, still one of the most profound things,

isn't it, is breaking up a relationship.

Whatever stage it's at. And I always think, you know, a lot of us apply our brains to

creating what you're doing, which is a huge undertaking and the social venture,

but we don't apply that same sort of intensity to our relationships and we expect them to be

outstanding. It's literally hilarious that we create

visions and missions and purpose and values for our businesses and the key behaviors that

underpin those values and we create a culture code. But in terms of our relationship,

like that's really rare. Like, do we sit down and map out what is our vision for us? You know,

what are the behaviors we want to have as important to us? What do we think the values of our

relationship are? You know, what are the goals that we want to achieve? Maybe we do that in a

financial sense, but like, do we do that from a, how do we want to feel about each other? How do

we want to feel inside of this relationship? It's kind of comical when you go, wow, we've really

kind of gone that in like a really commercial way, but not an interpersonal way. And I think

there's just, you know, lessons there.

How we can use like the masculine and feminine approaches to not making it

too much like a business plan, you know, your relationship. But, you know, I think that's

where the middle ground, you know, you can meet. We see leaders are really clear on how they

create and share their vision. You've had the Royal Family support your vision. How have you

thought about creating and sharing the vision for the Man Cave and what you're doing?

Yeah. So for me, opportunities like this are awesome. So thank you. I really do appreciate it.

Yeah. For me, Man Cave is now,

it's really interesting juncture where I think, you know, we started this like

pre Harvey Weinstein, Donald Trump, you know, the Me Too movement or any of this

like kind of groundswell. So we were like early on, you know, feet on the ground in 2014.

And now it's like, there's like this opening of this zeitgeist where people are like,

we should do something about this. This is really important. So for me, it's really,

we're now starting to have a lot of government meetings across, you know,

state and federal government to see how we can really establish like more,

support around the emotional and social development of young men.

And again, not through this lens of being super woke or like virtue signaling. It doesn't have

to be this big, scary or progressive thing. It's like, no, it's like, it's just values-based

education in a way that resonates with young men. So that's been, you know, really important.

And then, yeah, where Man Cave is now about to do a lot of work kind of digitally. So

we've started to run our programs on Twitch, which is the largest game streaming platform

in the world. Took me a little while to kind of catch up to what that was, but it's basically,

young people log onto this platform. They watch other, you know, their favorite YouTubers or

gamers game. And some of these kids have like tens of millions of followers. It's a whole other world.

I guess it's like us going to the G and watching our favorite athletes run around. But yeah,

we're now starting to run our mental health programs on Twitch. So kids go through,

you know, the programs at school, they come home, hopefully do their homework,

log onto Twitch. And then they're now having like conversations with our facilitators,

which is like a talk show.

A podcast meets like a segment. And the boys love it because it's entertaining,

but it's also educational as well. And they can talk and have open,

anonymous conversations around mental health, you know, relationships, sex, death, everything in

between. And I think that's really exciting because the possibilities of that digitally

open up so much. And, you know, we partnered with Australia's leading e-sports team to do

that as well. Got like 60,000 people streaming in and even had this one kid, his name was,

um, yeah, Bo Johnson just found us randomly online as an indigenous kid from central Victoria.

And he was like, how the hell do I get you guys to my school? And so we built this like

relationship with him online. And, and, you know, he got us into his high school and we rock up and

he's in all man cave merchandise. And he was like the hero of the town. And, you know, I think it's

a really powerful story of how digital can be used for good. Cause we often hear they're really

negative stories of, of digital and algorithms. And where you're meeting them is, is where

they're at, isn't it? I think for most parents, you know, Twitch is what the hell is they're

and yeah, I've spoken to you about that previously and it's so hard to get your head

around. And for most parents, you go, that's the nightmare. You know, my kid's up watching

gamers game all night. How can there be anything positive in that? But that's where a lot of the

passion space lies. So, you know, again, the brilliance of you to, to meet kids where they're

at and have those conversations, which segues well into curiosity as a dimension of leadership.

We just see people like you who are doing incredible things in leadership are really

curious. Is that word, you know, jump off the page out here? Yeah. I think,

it's like that child psychology, you know, the kids are always just asking why? Yeah,

absolutely. Like some reason we just lose that. And it's like, well, we just got to assume that

we know and go work it out privately. So I think, yeah, absolutely. I'm endlessly curious and

sometimes I have to like limit the curiosity cause I can just keep going. But yeah, curiosity,

I think in understanding is everything from understanding the people that we're sitting

opposite from to the history, to the real reason for things. And I think, you know, sometimes

humanity, we are a species with amnesia. We like forget why the way things have been done,

you know, and we just focus, which is probably some, you know, biological evolutionary reason

that's like, don't look back for the wine, keep going for the, you know, the berry.

But yeah, I think, yeah, curiosity alongside vision, you know, the ability to, you know,

let, and I think for me as a leader, it's back to vision very briefly. That's where my gifts are. I

don't know why, but I can just see things a few steps down the track and I can see how exponentially

if you do this and this and you pull it together, it can create its own, you know, momentum. I don't

know why, but it's just something that can happen. And my role as a leader has been surrounding

myself with people who can then take care of the operations. Um, and that's what I think an

effective, you know, manager of a team is you design the team around people in their sweet

spots to get the desired outcome. And, and for me, you know, uh, where I do my best work is

getting curious about things like, you know, as I said before around, okay, why is religion the

way that religion is being done?

What's the origins of spirituality? I'm like going down that and understanding that has helped

me be a better leader because I realized simple tenants like know thyself means that I can be

better, not just for myself, but for those I'm around. So someone on this podcast, and I wish I

could remember it wasn't it. I think about all the time talked about great leaders and great

partnerships around, you need shared values, but complimentary capabilities. So you're looking

for, you don't have to be a great operational person. You clearly understand that where your

strength is and surrounding that, but the intelligence and the leadership is to actually

say, God, I've got a gap here. Can I get other people to compliment me? Sounds like you've done

that really strategically and really successfully, uh, communicating with clarity. You, um, articulate

yourself as well as I can't say articulate as I try and, uh, compliment you for how well, uh, you

get your words across. Has that always been something that's, that's come easy to you around

communicating and what's been your communication strategy? Because, you know, it feels like you

get it out there really well.

Thanks. I think I honed it getting out of detentions at school is probably where I probably

worked out. I was like, all right, I can say a few things here. Um, nah, I joke, but kind of

serious. Um, the, I think really just time in the ring. And I say this, but like when in doubt be

authentic has been a game changer for me. Like if I don't know the answer, like I'm very comfortable

to say that. And, um, I think again, coming back to just the work I've done to feel comfortable

which is an endless, you know, task, um, allows me to, I think, speak, you know, from my heart.

And I think coming back to, you know, that at Ana's training, right. Where I had that ability

where I was like, well, there's a real block here. I can't actually articulate myself. And I think

using that as a training ground, um, or as an inception to go and find training grounds,

I should say has been, yeah, absolutely a game changer for me. And it's been a practice of

getting really uncomfortable. So for instance, doing the standup comedy cause was just, you know,

standing up and failing for like three days in front of people and recognizing that I will

survive, like the world will go on. And so, you know, I think around particularly around high

performance, that's really what my model of high performance is, is getting myself in environments

that I don't have my usual tools, um, to whip out. And actually I've got to be quite instinctual and

find my edges. And then on the edge is where the gold is. You mentioned earlier, and I meant to

ask you about, you said, I've got a range of self-reflective practices. I think it was when

leadership, I meant to come back to it. Um, it just sparked my attention again there. Can you

give us some detail around what that looks like for people? Sure. Yeah. Well, I think the easiest

low hanging fruit is just journaling. I think like, I remember you do that daily or I used to,

and now it's, um, I realized that my mind made it a task and then it become like, oh shit,

I'm not journaling. And then it became like, oh, that's not that point of journaling. And so now

I look at it as like, it's a gift, you know, it's like, I feel like unpacking,

something and just letting my unconscious unravel. But I remember when I started journaling,

I, I like, I was like, shit, how do I write the perfect journal? Do I start dear diary? Like,

what do you do? And now it's just whatever comes out, but I do try to end on three things I'm

grateful for. And I find, you know, just understanding the research on gratitude,

just like speaking it out into existence actually does rewire the chemicals in our brain and gets us

to be really appreciative. And I think, yeah, the more grateful I am, the more amazing things

shape things. So journaling's been massive coming from a contact sport and getting into yoga has

been huge. Um, I remember, you know, again, early twenties and I did yoga and I felt this like level

of like intimacy with my body. I was like, what the hell is this feeling? And, um, that has just

been a beautiful practice for me again, like, you know, maybe once a week. So it's not like

this thing I drill myself on, but it's a chance for me to slow my system down and get out of my

head into my body. That's been a game changer. And then I also do this practice, which is kind

of, I guess, a version of like internal family systems, which is like a type of psychology

where basically if I feel an emotion come up, I try and like have a practice of speaking to

that emotion and understanding it and feeling it. And basically it's like parenting the inner

selves that I have. And that's, that's been a game changer because often like, say for instance,

I might be triggered by something happened or I might, you know, go to do a talk or something

and I'm feeling anxious. I would actually create a practice as part of like a meditation routine

where I'll just slow down, speak to the part of my body that I'm not feeling anxious about,

that feels anxious, ask of it if it needs anything. Literally as a, as a kid, it has been

a game changer for me in terms of like feeling, just giving myself the love I wish I had in that

moment. Often it's some like childhood thing where I didn't get the attention or, you know,

reward I wanted. And then through that, I've also worked out the ability to start to speak to my gut,

you know, and ask, okay, well, what do you think gut? What should we do? And again, it's just

developing relationships with the different parts of our psyche or our consciousness has been huge.

Which sounds fairly esoteric, but

makes perfect sense to me. You mentioned before is, you know, there's only a handful of emotions

we will experience. Everyone experiences it. Even if you're not a jealous person, everyone knows what

jealousy feels like. And when that comes up, as you said, if you actually sort of almost go,

well, that's jealousy. That's just quite natural. It happens. It doesn't tend to, or that's anger,

as you said before, I don't then feel guilt about having anger or all of the emotions and the rains

and to be able to express it like that in the end, it's almost, you know, it takes away any of the

overthinking that comes next to it.

I can relate. We both, my Bex, a yoga instructor as well. And so brought that into our life. I think

when it's that close to you, isn't it? You realize how profound that practice is. I can relate to

that. I've got a very ordinary 35 minutes that I do most days, but I love it. It's been a game

changer. I think so. Just to jump in on just that for me, it's also, you know, we talk about whether

it's the guilt or the frustration or the shame, really learning to unconditionally love and

accept those emotions. And I think that's a really important thing. I think that's a really important

thing. I think that's a really important thing. I think that's a really important thing. I think

those parts of myself have been a life changer because, you know, parts of myself that I may

have shame about, if I am able to accept that, love myself, irrespective of that, that is telling

myself, which I'm always aware of how I'm going, whether I'm conscious of it or not, my body is

keeping a read on it. That really sends the signal to me that I unconditionally love myself, which

is crazy. Like it's so wild to me that we don't teach kids how to love themselves. It's so crazy.

Like it's like, it's, it's even the concept, it's like a bit woo woo, but I'm like, you know,

loving yourself and being comfortable with yourself, whatever language you want to say

is one of the greatest feelings in the world. And it's, it's, I think it's wild. We don't teach our

kids this. Well, it's funny, isn't it? It's going back to that whole schoolyard thing. You're in

love with yourself, you know, you're that the negative connotation to getting ahead of yourself,

you know, in Australia, we, you know, talk, that's sort of the foundation and talk poppy.

Is that, you know, what you're happy if you'd be reasonably successful, you get two success,

we're going to smash it. Yeah, exactly.

And I think that is a big thing to still unravel, isn't it? Yeah.

Coming, comes back to where we started, that sense of self, that sense of self leadership.

Yeah. If you haven't got a healthy,

yeah. Um, you know, understanding of yourself and care for yourself or love for yourself,

to use the word you're after, how do you then project anything positive going forward?

And I think the tricky thing is we see those people who often have the most, um, who were,

you know, sometimes the loudest in the room, the biggest performers, you know, often it's

projecting something, you know, they're not actually that comfortable with themselves. Some

are.

Of course, but often, you know, they're, they're doing it to create, you know, uh, a distance

from who they really are. And I think that's the really important thing. I love that you brought

that up because yeah, there, there are those people who are like, Oh, that's a bit arrogant

and wanky and like what, you know, but then I think there's like a difference where we know

people who are comfortable with themselves. We feel it. And, um, we also, you know, feel often

the unconditional love of our mothers, you know, if you're lucky enough to have that, that is an

epic feeling if you're experiencing that. So yeah, I'm just glad you brought that in.

Yeah. And I'm, I love the way that you, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you,

you just delve into those stuff. As you said now, because of the way the world is and

cancel culture, they're tricky conversations. And, and I know a lot of males that in the past

would have been open to having that conversation. Just don't want to go near it for sake of,

you know, you're going to offend someone and now you can't disagree. You really then,

you know, it is canceled culture. So I love the fact that, um, clearly you know it so well,

you know, where you sit on it so well, but I think we need to have more of these conversations.

It's clearly what you're doing in schools too, isn't it? It's getting in,

teaching,

these are the most important conversations that we could probably have. So well done again.

I'm interested in, you know, what's comeback culture. Like we don't, you know, because like,

we're not talking about that because if we're just sending a signal to everyone that's made

a mistake in their life, which is everyone, then there's not much incentive to really want to step

forward and take responsibility. Right. Because my career, my family, my income is on the line.

And that doesn't mean you don't take responsibility for what's happened,

but I'm really interested. What's the next cultural wave? Because we're going to have

like,

keep having this distance where men aren't going to speak their truth or feel empowered and that's

not going to end well. Yeah. I'd like to get behind comeback culture with you. I mean,

people will say, how many, how many chances does someone need? As many as it could possibly take,

it's an infinite amount of chances. We're all going to make mistakes. It's this sort of joy

people get around, you know, seeing someone fall off their ledge and be taken out. It's horrific.

You know, I'm with you. We need to sort of support comeback culture in a big way. I love that term.

Haven't heard it before.

Haven't heard it before. Who's been the greatest leader in your life, Hunter?

Greatest leader in my life. I would say my grandfather. Yeah. I think he, I don't know why,

but just really invested in me when I was young. Like there was some pretty tough years for me as

a really young kid. And yeah, he just, he just took me under his wing and, you know, really

invested in, you know, little things like he'd go give me 50 bucks to go give to that man who

was experiencing homelessness or, you know, when,

when we were lucky enough to travel, he would bring a bunch of soccer balls and pens and papers

and he'd go, go kick with the kids who were, you know, over there on the street. And so just little

things that started to shape my character. He really did. And he died in such an amazing way.

He was planting a tree on a property so that there'd be more shade for the grandkids,

which is similar to what we were talking about the other day. But yeah, I think that's a cracker

of a way to go out having a heart attack doing that. But yeah, he really,

was really important to me. And yeah. And also, you know, my parents have been fantastic

and my step-parents and my mom's new partner as well. Got a tribe.

It's brilliant, isn't it? If you're lucky enough to have that in your life, but

what was your grandfather's line again? Invest in-

Invest in experiences. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be monetary experiences, but it's just like

find yourself in environments that are off brand for you. And yeah, that was one of the things I

tried to do all through my twenties was just find myself in rooms of people who I'm like,

I should not be here, but-

I'm here and I'm learning more about myself because it gives me more range and more tools

in my tool belt. I think I accidentally slipped over

collaboration, but I'll pick it up now. We really feel as though leaders more than ever

focused on collaboration. And I'm sure that is going to be a huge part. I can hear it already

in what you're doing with stuff and with the man cave. But if you could collaborate with anyone

on any part of your life, who might it be? Oh, amazing. Well, I think collaboration

has to go in terms of leadership hand in hand with trust. And I think that's a really important

part of my leadership journey. And yeah, just going, people are going to make mistakes and

yeah, I trust them that they'll keep coming back and doing a good job. So I think that's been big

in terms of who can I collaborate with? Well, listen, it depends on what area, but right now

I'm particularly with teenage boys. I'm really interested in who they are inspired by. So

I would love from an Australian context to like get Chris Hemsworth involved in what we're doing

man cave. I think he'd be awesome. And then from a US context, there's a guy called Logan Paul,

who has like, he just understands the internet very well. Does he ever? Crazy. And a 12 year

old and a 15 year old. And, and, you know, I've had a quick lesson on Logan Paul. It's like,

he's got it, hasn't he? With that age group. It is wild. These are the children that have

been raised by the internet, right? And he's part of that. So he gets the game better than the media

get the game. And this guy just happens to be an absolute specimen at the same time,

too. Like he's, he's the one that's doing all the boxing. Yeah. Him and his brother, aren't they?

They, yeah. Challenge, you know, and have commercialized that in a serious way. Next

level. And literally like they get culture, you know, they get how culture works. They're not,

they're now at a point where they're creating culture as well, which is like, that's the level

of like Jay-Z, Kanye West, where you're creating, you're not just inheriting culture, you're creating

culture. So what's the culture they're creating on what? I guess it's like this internet generation

of you can do anything no matter who you are. Like we're in a time where power has been,

or some power has been democratized away from the big institutions. And we're seeing these kids,

you know, who are like, you know, mid twenties have more eyeballs and attention than like,

you know, the old school movie celebrities or the, like, you know, the big media houses.

And, um, you know, Logan Paul, the fact that he can, you know, just, you know, be a fit guy,

but also choose to fight Floyd Mayweather in his second professional boxing fight ever.

And not get knocked out. Okay. There's some size difference between them, but Floyd, you know,

arguably the greatest boxer of all time. Yeah, correct.

To not, um, to, first of all, that's his second fight. And then I think his brother's fighting

like Anderson Da Silva or something. You know what? I know that because my 12 year old said

that to me last night, I got home from Adelaide and he said, Logan Paul's fighting Anderson. So

he's a legend of MMA and, and on the surface you're going, but that, that is tapped right

into that age group, isn't it? And we're talking, you know, when he fought Floyd,

we're talking paydays of hundreds of millions, aren't we? And we're in, you know, well past

tens of millions of dollars. So, and it's like these guys get attention, right? Cause that's

all it is. It's sensationalized, um, storytelling of a little bit shocking and wild. And it's like,

how does a YouTuber, you know, collaborate with or fight, you know, the, one of the best

boxers of all time, but then like collaborate with the other, his other arch nemesis, who

is a huge UK, um, uh, YouTuber.

They then decide to collaborate and create a drink company called Prime, which I'm

I know all about this, mate. I, I was in London, uh, watching my daughter row and, uh, and

Max and Will before we left, you know, can you bring back some Prime from the UK?

Oh, I see where you're going, right?

It's like, what are you talking about?

I know. So Logan Paul, if you're listening or Chris Hemsworth, if anyone has any connections,

we're doing good work. It can really help.

Wouldn't you love to see that? Because to, to use that audience and, and translate into

best for best.

A version of masculinity into what the man cave is doing. They would be great, uh, investors

in stuff. They would be, uh, you know, able to, to turn that huge audience for, for, well,

I think for, you know, it's almost, you, you can't even not talk males and females at the

same time. I like the fact that you're saying, Hey, I'm going to specialize in this because

it will impact, you know, perhaps the thing we might need to change most is horrific thing

of the way males treat women and, uh, uh, you know, more strength to your arm, who,

you know, who's going to say that you wouldn't, uh,

Yeah.

Get those collaborations and, and also all the work with, uh, with stuff from the man

cave, uh, look up Hunter Johnson's work. It's really profound. It's an incredible story

of, uh, combining, uh, intellect and skill with purpose and passion. It's, uh, it's incredible.

I really, yeah. Uh, I'm inspired by everything you do. Thanks for spending the time today.

Mate, uh, right back at you. No, I really, really mean that. Thank you for being a role

model. Like I really appreciate it. You know, we're talking about, it's kind of hard to

pick who are the role models that we look to, given the uncertainty of where men and

masculinity is up to, and you know, you're someone I look to. So I just want to say I

really appreciate it. And again, thank you for the opportunity, you know, on the house

of wellness to this right here. It makes a huge difference. So thank you.

Yeah. Thank you. And I, and the learning experience, uh, you know, from, uh, from meeting you at

Anna's property and, uh, and wanting to go back there and take the kids, the, the learning

is never ending. So, um, it's been a lot of, uh, a lot of fun, but also, um, profound.

So thanks again.

Thanks mate.

Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy, producer of Empowering Leaders.

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