Brilliant to have Craig McRae as this week's guest on the Empowering Leaders podcast,
the Collingwood Premiership winning 2023 coach and one of the great AFL Grand Finals.
We cover a lot of ground in this conversation, how his ability to live in the moment helped
him enjoy the birth of his daughter at 7.45am on Grand Final day without panic, despite
accidentally packing two right shoes in his rush to get to the hospital.
The story of how his team has lived family first, from inviting the players' mums into
the rooms on Mother's Day for the pre-game address, to using the players' kids as water
carriers in the school holidays, he has genuinely created a family first environment.
His values-based leadership style that makes it really easy for him to support Jordan Ngoi
or Jack Ginneman or any of his players for that matter when they hit a hurdle.
He also talks about his enjoyment of his Alita Connect collaboration.
Every month he sits down via Zoom with legendary coaches, Mike Dunlap from the NBA, Anthony
Seabolt, a legendary coach in NRL, Johnny Elowisi, an Australian soccer legend, and
Andrew McDonald, the current coach of the Australian cricket team, and why that collaborative
leadership approach and learning from other coaches is incredibly valuable for Craig and
what he does as one of the great leaders in modern sport.
It's people like Craig McRae who inspire the work we do at Alita and our signature Alita
Connect collaborative program.
Love you to check it out.
We bring together bespoke groups of five or six leaders from non-competing spaces to learn,
to lead, and collaborate.
And as you'll hear from Craig McRae in this conversation, it's something that he really
values, someone who's constant and curious and never-ending self-improver like Craig
You don't have to be the Collingwood Premiership coach to be involved.
We love collaborating with people from art, from industry, from social venture.
You want to start your personal development, we'd love to hear from you.
Head to alitacollective.com.
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Craig McRae was drafted from Glenelg in South Australia.
He picked 22 in the 1994 national draft to the Brisbane Lions and would go on to play
195 games, kick 232 goals, winning three consecutive premierships, 2001, 2002, and 2003, and what
many believe to be one of the greatest teams in VFL, AFL history.
A teacher by trade, four years primary teaching experience, Flyer, as he's universally known,
embarked on an 18-year coaching apprenticeship before being appointed as the head coach of
the Collingwood Football Club before the start of the 2022 season.
He was awarded the AFL Coaches Association Coach of the Year in his first season, falling
one point short of making the grand final in that first year.
On the 30th of September, 2023, Craig McRae coached Collingwood to an incredible four-point
win over the team he played for, the Brisbane Lions, delivering the Magpies its 16th premiership
and first since 2010.
Thanks for taking the time.
Yeah, thanks to us.
Big smile on your face.
Still, can I start?
It's still fresh.
The paint's still wet.
It's joyful being in your presence.
Can I just start with the nickname?
Where did Fly come from and what's the backstory on that?
Yeah, it's something I've been trying to shake for 30-odd years now.
When I grew up in Adelaide, I was playing at Glenelg.
Choco Williams coached me as a young fella down at Glenelg and he took us to the movies
one day for a bit of a bonding session and it was Back to the Future.
It had just come out.
It was George or Marty McFly.
I had a similar haircut and looked very much like him so the boys started calling me McFly
and I couldn't shake it.
Then over the time, it's just sort of dropped the Mac and become Fly and I must admit I've
gone 25, 30 years now and I tried to reclaim Craig for a while but even that's not a great
name so I've just, something that's stuck by me.
And as you know in footy clubs, the harder you try, the more things stick.
A lot of people won't remember Back to the Future, a cult film back in that era and it
really took over the world.
Marty McFly, so Fly's it for, and it came to Brisbane with you.
Yeah, it came there and even my younger daughter calls me Fly sometimes.
It's evolved in different, you have to fly bags, a few other things.
Mick Malthouse named me Fly Bags once and so it's evolved but I'd, yeah, anyway, here
We're fresh from grand final day.
Your wife, Gabrielle, was due on that day and you knew weeks out there was a possibility.
Incredibly, 7.45am on what's one of the biggest days of your life.
The heart must have been pumping that morning.
Can you tell us how it all unfolded?
Well, you know, when we were lucky enough to find out that we're having a child and,
you know, it's joyful and it's exciting and then they tell us the due date and I was sort
of just flicking through my phone and going, hang on a minute, that 30th of September,
that's grand final day and then we sort of laughed and didn't think much of it and then
as the year goes on, we're going, well, there's a fair bit that has to, you know, align here
for this to happen.
You know, baby being born on the due date.
But also us making the grand final.
And I said, oh, I just kept putting it off.
Let's not worry about it.
You know, let's qualify first.
You know, then we qualify finals and don't worry about it.
We're going to make a prelim before we even worry about that.
And before we know it, here we are, you know, a week out, made a grand final and my wife's
about to be 40 weeks pregnant on the day.
And, um, but even still the obstetrician was saying it's probably going to be a week late,
maybe a little bit more.
So in my mind, no problem at all.
We'll go and do the grand final and worry about it when we have to.
Little did I know.
That she sort of started to go and labor on the parade.
She was in the, in the car in front of us or in, in, in the car that was at the back and,
um, went into labor, but kept it to herself.
My wife's pretty amazing, but this is next level because her sister was down.
They ended up going to the hospital together at midnight.
It was full, full contractions, labor and unbeknownst to you, I had no idea.
I went to bed with our other daughter and, um, had no idea.
And then wake up about quarter to six, her mum's rang and said, uh, you better take this
And my wife says, so you better take this call.
You better get it.
The baby's going to be born in about half an hour.
And we're Williams down to St. Vincent's.
It was a bit of a drive and I just, in a mad rush, went there.
An hour later, the most joyful experience that you ever have has been a father and a
little Maggie was born.
And that leads into this dream of coaching an AFL grand final.
I mean, you're the most relaxed person I think I've seen.
And yeah, the, the smile and the joy was that, did that throw you out at all?
Or were you just like, this is meant to be?
No, look, I just know that match day is a big thing.
It's about playing.
Like we set it up like that every week for our players.
It's, you know, match day's the outcome and, and, you know, you've done all the process.
So I knew that everything had been put in place.
There was no disruption to any of that.
I was really well planned for the match day meeting and a bit of fun.
And as I normally do, I had it all set out.
But the only thing that sort of threw me is that I, in my madness and the darkness, I've
grabbed all my work gear thinking I better go from there to the game because I don't
know how long this is going to take.
I grabbed two right shoes in the darkness and I, so it wasn't.
Until about half past 11, I think I better get ready for this game here.
We got to, we got to get to the ground.
And I've gone to put my shoes on and I'm going, oh no.
So then, then straight away I've had to go into autopilot.
You know, as your coach, you just look for solutions, not about the problem.
And worked away trying to work through that.
But I end up running to pick up some shoes on the way.
And yeah, I don't know.
It's just, it's the joy in the, in the moment of having a child.
It's, it's so special.
And then to actually then be able to put that into place and then go to work.
Yeah, I just, is, is always just find a way.
Come back to the, to the day a little bit later.
But for me, you've brought this great joy to the sport that we love and the smile and
the charm and the, and the good humor that you've had since you've been in the main chair.
Can you take us inside, understand pre-game that every time we see vision of the rooms
inside, the players are pissing themselves laughing, you're laughing.
Can you share with us some of the ways that you've approached that and why you chose that
Oh, I think my personality is cheeky.
I like to be cheeky, but respectful.
And, you know, I don't like to be disrespectful, opposition or, you know, whatever it looks
But I like being cheeky.
I like having a laugh.
And I think, you know, life, life is too short not to.
So my personality does come out in my coaching, but particularly match day, this group have
sort of taught me what they need.
You know, like you sort of inherit a group and you wonder what, what gets the best out
And in the early days when I was presenting for a game, I went a little bit light.
I told a story about, you know, I was trying to sell my car and whatever, and a few funny
And, and it got this relaxed nature.
The week before I sensed a tension in the group and whether it was a performance anxiety,
I'm not sure, but you sort of work out what your group needs.
So it started to evolve from that.
And then, you know, last year in particular, we just took it on different journeys and
find different ways to get a laugh, to, to relax the room and allow, allow the oxygen
to breathe in the brain to then let some stuff go.
So there was an evolution of it, but it become a, you know, important part of match day routine
was relaxed into, into, you know, mindset.
You know, where do we need to go?
Where do we need to go into performance?
And then, yeah, nothing's changed in that time.
It's just, you know, whether it's a video or, um, do you want me to go running on the
ground and, and mirroring that to a, um, a Forrest Gump movie, like I just said, that
was match day grand final.
That was grand final day.
I don't know if you remember the prelim, he's on the bench, he runs on and he's got
high knees and he runs, just seems like went forever and running.
So I put that into like, and one day I started running and, and then he's just looking for
little angles to, to have fun, but ultimately you can't have fun unless you've done the
work and this group.
It's one of the best I've ever seen at preparing, training standards, you know, preparing to
play, trying to get better every day.
So then you rock into match day and you know, you've done the work and it's hard to be
relaxed if you haven't.
Is there a famous one from the prelim final of the year before?
Am I told that, uh, there might've been a whole heap of confetti emerge out of your
Yeah, that was, that was probably a couple of weeks before then.
It might've been a qualifying final.
We celebrated Darcy Cameron's 40th game one week, which no one's ever done in the history
game, but we decided to.
And, uh, he's a pretty soft target, Darcy.
He's, he's easy to find a laugh for, um, for, um, but we had Gil McLaughlin send a video
message in about, you know, how important it is to play 40 games.
And, and, uh, and then I think we got a message from Warwick Capper too, because Darcy Cameron
played one game for Sydney and, you know, how, how he was a legend and Darcy's not.
You know, Fraser Gerrick, cause he called himself the G train, Fraser Gerrick did a
video message about imitating him and things.
So that it just grows, you know, the length you go to, to do it.
But sometimes it's, it's right in front of your face.
Other times you have to search for it, but again, allowing the players to be relaxed
to perform is something that was important for this group.
And speaking of which, and I've said this to you before, my favorite moment for the
year happened on Anzac day with your team and sitting there lucky enough to been the
best seat in the house calling the game.
Brayden Maynard kicks out from fullback and literally misses the ball.
It rolls off his shin, rolls into his opponent's lap.
He kicks it straight over his head and kicks.
He got, you can't have a bigger clinger in sport than that.
Anzac day is a hundred thousand.
One of the most significant days outside of grand final day.
And they panned to the bench and there's you pissing yourself laughing.
And I couldn't help the joy that gave me, because I know in the past we just played
in an era where you might've got dragged.
You definitely would've abused the runner would've come out and, you know, called you
everything under the sun.
And, and we all knew how unhelpful that was, but how have you been able to train
the players to just relax in that moment?
Consistent messaging around, you know, whether it's a windscreen wiper analogy
that, you know, make a mistake, wash it away and have clarity.
The ability to move on from things is, is critical.
I remember when we've started, I'm really big on, you're allowed to make mistakes.
This game is imperfect, make as many as you can or attempt to, cause then you're
gonna actually having a go at it.
But I remember we were making mistakes at training and I'm, I'm watching guys do
this and I miss a kick and they're doing pushups.
I said, what are you doing?
Pushups for go, go get the ball.
And, and they go, oh no, but I made a mistake.
I said, yeah, make a mistake, go fix it.
Like we're running around with the biggest arms in, in the competition.
Once they go, what are you doing here?
Like, so, so changing behaviors around stakes is okay, was something
that we had to set about and then, and then it just evolves.
And I, I, again, I use that analogy one game.
I think the bigger the games too, sorry, that, that the more you have to get
away from yourself and then be able to move things, like you have a set shot.
You gotta be able to go next minute on man in the mark, I'm getting on with it.
Cause that could come back in a hurry and those be able to execute.
So, um, windscreen wipers was used, um, 2022 and in a big game too, it might've
been an Anzac day game then it was like, Hey, Hey, we'll make mistakes.
Just quickly move it on.
So, and we gotta, we gotta be present.
Stay in the moment, be live here.
Cause then you can go and lay good tackle or, you know, win that ball back.
But the, the Anzac day game of this year, the one you're talking about with Braden
before the game, I showed a Ted lasso clip of, um, Ted talking about the goldfish, the
happiest animal in the world or something, because it has a 10 second memory.
And then the gag to his, to his players was exactly that let some stuff go.
So I said today, you know, we need to be goldfish and I had it as a thing.
Always today with goldfish, we let some stuff go cause things won't go away.
Umpires decisions, you know, free kicks against whatever it looks like.
Missed goals, kicks it out in the fall.
What we will make some mistakes, but we're gonna be goldfish.
And we laughed at this clip and whatever, and then get to half time.
Jamie might've kicked a couple out in the fall of that stage.
I made a joke of it.
So we talked about before the game, you know, kick it out the fall, Jamie, too
many, mate, too many, and we're laughing at that at half time, but then literally
after, um, half time, Rosie does that kick.
When the first minutes they get kicks at the worst he's ever done.
And I'm on the bench and I looked at the bench and I looked at the players.
I said, I suppose it's time to be goldfish boys.
Like it was as bad as you get, isn't it?
Like that's a bigger claim you'll see.
And, but I think that that's giving them.
Permission, permission to fail and permission to have a go.
Um, and I think again, this group's really, really found their place with that.
There's a skill in that though.
I think that is underestimated.
Is it, and you know, so even at junior sport where you might have the intention
and you say the kids, Hey, we want you to take risks.
And then the coach, when you do goes, oh fuck, you know, and, and puts
his hands on his head and if you do that, you've probably lost it immediately.
You're you need that ability to, to be able to keep the calm when it counts.
And I, I think it's, you know, you look at your own self a lot.
I, I, I self reflect more than anything and you know, that's probably a strength
of mine to be able to, you know, not worry about the baby until September 30th.
Cause I'm just gonna do, you know, to the 29th.
Well, you don't worry about that.
And so that's probably where I've lived my life a lot.
Um, which helps me sort of, I'm a process driven guy and I, and I keep educating
our group where process driven, not outcome driven.
So we live in the moment of light.
Let's just do, you know, Tuesday.
Well, and then Wednesday will come.
That definitely helps, you know, drive this stuff.
The self-reflection, if I picking up what you said earlier, so I'm cheeky, I'm not
disrespectful and you were known as that on the field and in our era, and every time
you looked up, you were sort of the running the mad Mondays that the Brisbane lions, you
know, famously, do you think that was maybe this idea of a coach for, you know, a long
time is the alpha is the coach and you've got a, and we've probably selected that along
Do you think that maybe put you into the apprenticeship role for a bit longer?
World wasn't ready for that style.
Yeah, potentially.
Yeah, potentially.
But also, um, I think I had a handbrake in myself, um, in, in that I wanted to not be
I wanted to be a coach for, you know, life coach, whatever that meant, you know, tenure,
but, um, I was determined to stay in the game for a long time.
So I wasn't in a hurry to be assistant coach and then whatever the pathway was at that
Um, yeah, I think, I think the, the coaching landscapes change a lot.
People want to be more connected, more valued, more appreciated.
Potentially, you know, no one wants to be yelled at and told them that are good anymore.
That, but that was the style that we inherited and we lived by.
So, uh, so yeah, maybe a little bit of a time for myself to find where I needed to go and
And, but also, yeah, well, the way that young people like to be coached.
Do you remember thinking about it as a player with you, you described wanting a life tenure
Do you remember thinking, I'm going to do this really differently when you give me the
I'd never really had.
Ambition to be a senior coach until probably 2019 when Adelaide came rank, uh, they rang
about their senior position and, and it caught me by surprise.
It just part of Richmond's success and coached a VFL premiership in 2019, literally two days
later, the phone rings and we're really interested.
And I wasn't then did I realize how close it was.
It wasn't just the right time for a family and, and just didn't feel ready for that.
Um, preparation wise to go for the job, but also in life, that was probably a moment where
And if the phone rings again, I'm going to be ready.
And I went about for two, three years, putting together a bulletproof presentation, but also
I knew my resume was going to be hard to fault for the next phone call that rang if it did
And I understand for a part of that resume, when you presented to Collingwood, I read
recently that you presented it through the eyes of these great mentors of yours and,
and you read the list.
It's a sort of roll call of some of the most influential people in the history of the game.
Um, Choco Williams was your coach at Glenelg.
He had a huge impact.
Robert Walls, your first senior coach at Brisbane and, you know, notoriously tough
Mick Muldouse, you went back to Collingwood.
Nathan Buckley in your time as an assistant at Collingwood, Damien Harwick at Richmond.
Craig Bellamy, you were the kicking coach at the Melbourne Storm.
Alastair Clarkson from Hawthorne.
And then Lee Matthews as the triple premiership coach in that famous Brisbane era.
Can you share with us the importance of that and what, and what you grabbed from them?
And it, um, you know, that's what I thought that I had to have a bulletproof presentation.
Cause when I'm putting this together for two or three years, I knew the extent of the
people I'd work with and the successes that those people had had.
And, and my, you know, fingerprints somewhat of being involved in those programs, I knew
what it was like to be a winner.
And, um, for those that know me well, I'm, I'm not arrogant, but I know how to win.
And that, and that was, that was the basis of my presentation.
I'm a winner and I know how to win and I know the behaves required to win because of all
And, and, you know, at the time at the Richmond Footy Club.
Winning three flags in four years, the Storm were doing something similar.
And I was at the same, same, um, timeframe.
I was at two different organizations, two different sports, but the same behaves were
The way that the training was unbelievable.
And then the connection to the people and, you know, just discipline and leadership.
It was all there.
So I'm learning all these lessons and making, making mental notes and also coaching my own
team at the time, trying to connect this stuff.
But ultimately, if you look through all those, those names that I mentioned, I'd learned
something off all of them, if not many off, off some.
And yeah, so I shared the, the one or two things when I, it's just a visual, you picture
a visual of those guys, all the guys on a one page keynote, and I'm just telling the
stories about how they've influenced me to be in this position, to go for this job.
It's a compelling, when you, when you set it out like that, we use a term, a lot of
success leaves clues, isn't there are patterns that you can pick up around successful people
and Craig Bellamy's history is enormous.
You look right through that list.
All of them had been premiership players.
I think I was close to it and, and, or, or being attached to.
Success everywhere.
Every one of them actually.
And that was, that was, you know, lucky enough in my playing career to, to have some great
mentors and learnings and yeah.
And then there was the big one in the middle was Lee who, who taught me the most, probably
because I was 28 ready for to, you know, on board a lot of stuff.
And then we had the success at the end of my career.
I could see where it all fit.
And yeah, amazing day, grand final day, got to spend a bit of time with Lee and just the
fingerprints of him from 1990 in Collingwood and describe that as almost, uh, in his unemotional
way, Lee is the most profound, uh, victory he had in his eight, uh, premierships and
then coach you in that extraordinary era.
And you could see it was the proud father, wasn't he?
When he put his arm around you, that must've been a beautiful moment.
And, um, I haven't had a lot to do with Lee in recent time.
Um, and last couple of years, he rings me probably once a year, Texas a couple of other
And, but then I got to share that moment on the ground, but then the next day we hit,
we had a reunion.
I got to chat to him even more and yeah, I got a photo with Lee and it doesn't make,
doesn't make sense to me.
Like this is like, I'm, I'm Lee's role player.
And now I'm a coach of Collingwood who now we're in the premiership.
It's just quite surreal to be honest.
Just jump on that for a moment.
I mean, there's so many great images of grand final day and I want to come back to it again
a little bit more.
But was there one moment where.
You gave a hug to one person.
Was it a Lee Matthews or one of the players?
Was there one that you've got an image that you can go to or is it too many?
Oh, there's a lot.
And a lot of it was a blur, um, of just emotion and joy.
Uh, you know, Darcy Moore, seeing him embracing in a moment, I'll never forget.
Just the staff too, you know, they do all the work and you know, that, that joy to be
able to share that moment and excitement with those.
And they're just the surreal nature of, of winning premierships.
As a player, it felt the same as a coach.
You just can't believe it's happening.
Is this real or what's actually happening here?
And so it's hard to describe it, but to be able to celebrate with people that, you know,
have done so much work.
And then there's the bootstutter, Neil, who's been there way longer than any of us, you
know, before the game, he's a nervous wreck because you just got to win this one.
And I'm like, Neil, we've got this mate, we're good.
And then to share in his joy afterwards and see what it means to a lot of people.
And that's the staff.
I know, I know, you know, just outside how many people it means to them.
The, the broader Collingwood community.
So I don't lose sight of that.
He walked in here and, uh, Joey is, uh, the great editor of our podcast and he shared
it, you know, he's in tears and been in tears many times.
He was quick to show me his tattoo, wasn't he?
Mate, I almost had to call security to get him off you there, Fly, for a minute, uh,
He's never been more excited in his life than saying, can you come and, uh, be here with
Can you share the story?
Just share with me off air at the same time around picking up your mail.
And this is the thing you don't realize.
And that's why I like to go home and have a red wine replay after the games every, every
win, because you want to embed yourself in the game and see the people that are coming
along and the emotion attached to it.
So yeah, I was just going to the mail to get the mail out on Monday or Tuesday this week
and gentleman's walking his dog.
He's an elderly gentleman.
I'd never seen him before, but he's, he must live close and he's, um, got a premiership
And I just suddenly said, oh mate, I really like your hat.
And he stopped and paused and looked at me.
And then he just started crying.
And I'm trying to make conversation with this man.
This is a bumbling mess, but he's, he's, you know, he just said, um, weeping.
He goes, mate, you don't realize how much this means to all of us.
And I, and you do, but you don't like, how could I possibly know, you know, the, the
column with supporters and what they've been through or the family connected, the ones
that missed out on it, that, you know, didn't quite get there.
Whatever it looks like that everyone's got a story to be told about it, but, but I don't
lose sight of how important this is.
For so many people.
It's the joyful part of sport, isn't it?
I, you know, can't imagine it's easily replicated in other areas of your life, isn't it?
Where people genuinely describe that day as the best day of their life.
Joey just did before.
He's nodding furiously out there.
And, and I didn't have, uh, the, uh, the fortune or skill you might argue to, to win one as
But when our team won one after such a long time in 2016 as the Bulldogs, that is one
of the best nights of my life.
Arguably the greatest.
I felt like all of.
The, um, the skeletons and the frustrations were buried for all of us that did it.
And we're this great catch up with all the players from our era.
And I can, I still smile when I think about, you know, being lucky enough to stand on the
It's, it's unique, isn't it?
And then, you know, I, I didn't realize the scar tissue attached to so many Collingwood
I was very much aware of the, uh, the narrative around Collingwood making grand finals and
not winning them and losing close ones.
But I, I didn't realize until grand final week.
Well, people are still carrying all those scar tissues or stories from the Renee Kinks
losing seven grand finals.
And there, there, there's a lot of them.
Um, Darcy Moore, um, Peter Moore's lost five grand finals.
And so there's a lot of stories to be told.
And when we get the success we had, the joy, um, associated with that, but also allowing
some cleansing and some healing.
Um, yeah, there's a lot of that too.
So, you know, there's two sides of the story.
Obviously, obviously every, every grand final.
I'll be told, but yeah, this club has got an incredible history, you know, only 16 victories
It shows how hard they had to win.
And I think the stat from grand final days, 1967 and Collingwood had played in something
like 16 grand finals and only won two of them.
So that is a lot of scar tissue, isn't it?
Over a long period of time.
And again, hopefully this, this performance from our playing group in the club allows
people to cleanse and heal and, and, but also creates a whole new journey of supportive
base and, and joy.
Well, as you know, to, to be a professional at any sport, almost particularly a collision
sport like AFL, you're inherently a risk taker and you're going to make mistakes.
You can't turn that off the second you get off the field and every club, every player
mate, we all made them.
You deal with that in a, in another unique way.
I, you know, saw the way that the whole world coming after one of your star players, Jordan
Ngoi over the journey that you've been coach and wanting blood from him and ban him for
Um, and I think your line was, you know, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was,
you know what, I just want to put my arms around and give them a hug.
Talk us through that approach.
Oh, well, I'm, I'm a values based leader that I think that's probably the best way to describe
the way I go about it and, um, yeah, around love and support and yeah, George is a unique
one in terms of, um, yeah, the attention he gets for, for, for past errors, if you like.
And, um, yeah, I was only new to building a relationship with him and I've, I've openly
shared and you've probably heard this before that I, I don't have any sons, but I like
to treat them like mine.
But you don't always agree with what you, you know, I've got daughters, but they don't
always agree with the things they do.
They make mistakes, they, you know, stuff up or whatever, and, but you're still ultimately
in there that they love them and, and you're gonna be there for them.
So errors can be made, but you know, how do you react to that?
You know, you know, and my style is, is, is values based, as I said, so I, I wanted to
wrap my arms around Jordan and say, okay, yeah, I don't agree with what you've done
here or, or you do agree, whatever, whatever happens.
And then you go, well, what are we gonna do about it?
I wanna, I wanna help you get through this.
And, and so maybe that's something that Geordie hasn't received previously.
I'm not sure you have asked him, you know, to be there for him and, and, and being able
to be in the same room was something that straight away came to mind.
Fascinating in real time though, uh, flying, you've, you, you've talking about this story,
but it, you know, it's grandfather day, you got a bit going on, got a baby being born,
you called in, you got two right shoes in your bag, so you got, you got some solutions
I was a left footer too.
Right ones are no good to me.
And word comes through.
One of your players is going to the races on a, on a, on the night before the grand
final, Jack, you know, and how do you process that?
Is there a, hey, I'm wrapped my arms around him or is there a bit of, oh shit, not today,
Yeah, there's a, there's all, all that.
And, uh, there's certain things I just can't control.
Does it affect us now?
Let's give that some thought when I need to, but I don't need to worry about it now.
So I'd be able to put things where they need to be.
You know, I, I might probably say that I'm, I'm on the fence, whether that's the right
I, I'm probably erring in time to think it was a poor decision to be made.
Um, you know, hence why I said read the room, Jack, in that situation, but it's, look, I,
I'm, I'm about accountability and I'm about rewarding behavior.
Um, they're, they're things that I'm really big on and I won't walk through our hallways
and see something that I like without calling it out.
I want to allow somebody in our environment that does something that makes us better and
not make sure that everyone appreciates that.
Um, and so a lot of things get done that people don't see.
So I'd make sure they, they know who did that, who puts the signs up in the, in the, in the
rooms before the game.
We just walk in and assume it's just some magic, click a finger gets done.
I want to make sure we realize how many people do that, who, who packs up afterwards.
You know, we, we appreciate little, little, little things.
And so some of that is reward.
And then the other part of this is about creating a culture where you go, well, we're winners.
And I walked into this club and the first thing he said, oh yeah, I'm a winner.
And I want to have winners and we're going to be winners.
Winners only if you step in here, that can correlate in so many different angles.
You know, are you a winner as a parent?
Are you a winner as a dad?
Are you a winner in the way you open the door for, for someone in our environment or,
you know, put your plate back on after you had lunch and don't just assume someone's
going to clean it up.
They're all winning behaviors.
So for me going to the races before the game, um, grand final day, that for me, that's not
So that's where I put that.
And then you work around trying to educate or encourage or, or discourage behavior.
It's, uh, it sounds simple, but it's, it's profound.
I think you, you touched on something there I think is really worth sharing is I think
we miss the obvious.
A lot, which is that opportunity to say to someone, Hey, love what you're doing.
In all of our organizations, the free hit is there.
And particularly in Australia, you never see people more uncomfortable than someone telling
them how well they're doing.
We find that really hard here in this country.
Yeah, it is hard to, hard to receive good feedback.
And I'm the same, I've learned over time that it's actually okay to be told you're doing
But I, I think ultimately we like to feel valued and appreciated.
There is the five languages of love.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with it.
A lot of people like to be told they're doing well.
They probably don't want to say it out loud, but a little pat on the back, say, man, I
really appreciate you doing that for us, but we, we, our culture, we, we, once a week we
get together to finish the week and we call it side by side and, and, and, and it's not
every week, but most weeks it is this, that we just take a couple of minutes to say, okay,
all right, I want a player to chat to the place person next to you.
I want you to look around the room and everyone's in the room, players and stuff when you look
around the room and I want you to, um, give a shout out to someone that you really appreciate
that you've done.
I've done something for you in the last couple of weeks.
And then the staff look back at the players and still apply that you really appreciate
something they're doing, whatever.
And it might only take five minutes in your environment, but it creates this pattern of
behavior that it's actually okay to be told you're doing something well.
And I'm going to look you in the eye, Darson, and tell you, I really appreciate that.
So there's, it becomes comfortable because it can be uncomfortable to receive, you know,
this somewhat positive feedback with, um, that, oh, I don't know.
I don't need that.
I'm bulletproof, whatever.
As long as not we're polishing up stuff.
Stuff that's not real.
Cause that's the difference.
If you fluff up stuff, that's not real.
Then people see through that straight away.
Um, but when you're genuine and authentic, I think people can buy into that.
We do that in our, in our leadership business, in the team meeting.
Start every meeting.
What have you got to celebrate?
What have you got to bring?
And it becomes, uh, and it's only five minutes, but you know, you've got to bring something
positive to the table and it's a small bit of time, but it can be pretty profound.
And I know my daughter and I, and my wife, we sit around the dinner table every night
and we just make sure we say what we're grateful for.
Cause it, it, it makes you appreciate what you've got cause yeah, this is a crazy world
we're living in it.
And I love the opportunity to share great leadership stories and I appreciate you doing
it today because your empathy and your care and your authenticity, you know, really, uh,
comes out in everything that you do, but we know in a lot of environments that old style
of leadership is still there and you've got the boss who's got the hierarchy and it's
command and control and it's still that I'm going to yell at you to do what I need you
What would you say to people listening that, uh, maybe, um, you know, in that sort of position
of power or what does good leadership look like to you?
Uh, I, I think, um, yeah, is it essential or, or, or, uh, a given, I, I don't know,
but I, I live in an open-minded mindset, so I'm open-minded to things.
You come up with an idea.
Where's that fit?
Let's see if that can make us better.
Um, I'm, I'm not, I'm not perfect.
No way in hell would I consider myself to be perfect.
I'm open to criticism or, you know, yeah, this is not good enough.
Yeah, I get that, mate.
Oh, I remember, I remember going to a board meeting.
We lost three games in a row and there was a, a conversation around this, this better
This is not good enough.
And I, I, I, I can't control what others say, but I say, hey, let's come back.
I'm a process guy.
I'm going to show you how we're going to fix this.
So, yeah, but there's, you know, taking people on the journey, building relationships, Jeff
Brown and I, I would ring Jeff Brown every Thursday after match committee and just tell
him what we're doing with the team and why.
And I heard Lee did this.
He was a coach to, um, you know, when he was at Collingwood and I thought that's a
I don't really know Jeff Brown.
Had hardly met him.
Um, and so I thought, well, this is a chance to build a relationship.
He'll get to know my style.
I'll get to know his, and then we can work together and, and, and build trust because
that's ultimately once you've got a relationship, you can yell at me as much as you like, Jeff.
You know, sometimes I might laugh at it because we've got such a relationship.
Oh, whatever, Jeff.
Or other times you go, no, no, you're right, mate.
That's, that's well grounded.
But without a relationship, it's, it's difficult.
It's difficult to get that feedback and like, without getting your front up.
So ultimately, you know, how you connect with people is, and build a relationship is, is
Jeff Brown, the, the president of, of your club.
It's a really smart thing, isn't it?
We ask you about communication a while, isn't it?
But that just five minutes of your week can save a lot of, uh, a lot of pain, uh, in the
Fly, we're really privileged to, uh, have you part of our Leader Connect program and
where we bring together leaders from different non-competing backgrounds in a diverse range
That's a really, uh, fascinating group.
I know they're private conversations, but I love hearing the stories.
Um, Mike Dunlap is with you, who was, uh, NBA coach, uh, with Michael Jordan's team
of Charlotte Hornets.
So Mike had the privilege of chatting to him on this podcast.
He's a star, Mike.
He's an incredible person.
He's, he's, he's just fascinated by all the stories he tells.
I just sit there and just want to listen to him.
Full of wisdom, isn't he, ah, Mike?
And recently at the Milwaukee Bucks when they run, Johnny Eliwissi, he's Australian soccer
Anthony Seabold, head coach, currently at the Manly.
There goes Anthony McDonald, the Australian cricket coach.
Can you tell us about this experience and what it's meant to you?
Oh, you know, I've just started out my journey as a senior coach
and then walk in and they got Andrew McDonald,
then he becomes the Australian cricket coach
and Seabes was over with the UK Rugby Union
and then obviously now is back with Manly
and they got John and Alyssa.
They won the flag that year.
They won the premiership the first year we did it
and Mike was with the Milwaukee.
They were in the NBA playoffs, they won it.
They won it in 2021.
Yeah, so they might have just won it and then come in.
So there was all this success around there too.
So you're listening to stories and like you said,
the fingerprints and the breadcrumbs of what makes success
and I constantly get something out of these Zoom calls and catch-ups
and there's so many subtle little things from, you know,
how we picked our leadership team this year.
We had to evolve our leadership team
and I asked a question just before Christmas,
any experiences from the group?
Andrew McDonald shared the story around
how they went from, you know,
their new captain in the Test of Mondays
and in Cummings and the process of that
and the regrets he had and didn't do
and so I thought, okay, I'm going to take him on a journey.
So I set about doing it exactly what Andrew didn't do, you know,
because he said that I would do this differently
and all those things,
these little things that you're getting out consistently
and because we're all living the same stuff, aren't we?
But it's just, you know, a different code
or a different environment, but I've got a lot of it.
founded a leader and a great friend of mine
and said he was just blown away
by one of the first meetings and getting that group together.
You can imagine everyone's on different time zones
and there's a fair bit of skill
in bringing together that group of busy people
and it coincided with a training session
and you, you know, new coach,
happy to leave the track
and spend some time on your own personal development.
A lot of coaches wouldn't be comfortable
in their own skin to do that,
but you could do that, you know,
in one of your first experiences.
How did you come to that?
Yeah, it's always difficult
because you especially knew I was trying to drive the bus
and say, no, this is where we're going
and then be prepared to then sit at the back
because the bus is going pretty good.
And so I did challenge my thought process around it,
but if I'm just going to say to our group
consistently, nearly daily,
hey boys, we're getting better every day.
Yeah, today's another, no exception.
We're getting better.
Make yourself better.
Train this, whatever it looks like.
And I'm not role modeling that.
Well, then I'm, you know, my word's not nowhere near.
There's much meaning, does it?
So, you know, I'm prepared to step out and tell my coach,
hey, look, I'm doing this thing.
I'm going to get better.
So I walk out of that meeting thinking I've missed something,
but actually, in fact, I've gained.
So I went out on the track with full of energy
and a couple of little ideas.
And, you know, every situation is slightly different.
But in that particular moment,
I only, you know, might've been only a month or two
into my tenure as a Collinwood coach.
I thought, oh, this is a chance to actually do the opposite.
Trust the people I've got around me
because I've got great staff.
So that's an example of like, I don't need to be,
you know, holding the whip and whipping it all the time.
I've got trust that the right people are doing it
And then two, I'm getting better.
It's a great message to the team around you for me, isn't it?
I'm empowering you.
We've got great people.
That is a unique thing to get early on.
And it's really powerful, isn't it?
And I know Jeff Brown says the same.
You employ the right people to let them do their job.
And I think I'm in an interesting conundrum
a little bit at the moment
because I'm going to go to Boston in December
and do a Harvard leadership course,
which I'm really excited for.
But it coincides that first week back for training.
And the first week back in this campaign,
I want to make sure we get the right messaging going early.
So I feel a bit compromised on it,
but I might zoom myself in.
Because if I've, again, if I'm saying to our playing group,
hey, we're getting better.
And there's no ceiling on this.
There's no, we're an open mind.
There's no, why can't we just grow through the roof?
And I'm in Boston doing a seven-day leadership course.
I think that could send the right message too.
Hey, yeah, we might've had success,
but we're not standing still here.
But I've got to get the balance of that right.
If you're not there, yeah, what message does that send?
I love your thought process, O, isn't it?
And technology allows you to do both potentially.
I'm told that your grand final weekend
is just extraordinary, isn't it?
Baby born, 7.45, you win the grand final.
Told the next morning,
one of your elite connect sessions on,
you pop up with baby Maggie sitting inside the cup.
You squeeze a premiership reunion.
With your great Brisbane Lions teammates.
There's many lines to that though, Darce.
Like I often say that it's a moment in time
that I'll be the Collingwood coach,
but I'm going to be a father forever.
So I want to be there for my kids
and I want to be there for my wife.
And then, but then also I'm not the Collingwood coach
without my time at Brisbane.
So there was a reunion on the Sunday
And it might only be for one beer,
but I'm there just to show my respect for,
you know, this opportunity they've given me.
You know, like I'm not here without it.
So I never forget where I come from.
And then the elitist stuff's the same.
Like we just got out of hospital.
So I was an hour late, but I thought,
oh, can I get on again?
I've got the little one in my hand.
And, you know, I actually think I might've cried.
I was probably because I had no sleep,
but also the emotion of it all.
But again, you know, you just appreciate what you got.
And then, you know, don't forget the people along the way
that've helped you have success.
Because quite often you meet them on the way down
if you go up to, and don't forget those people.
You mentioned your values.
You show them, you turn up and show them in every minute.
Five minutes to go, grand final day.
I felt like sitting there, you had the better of the day
all the way through.
Brisbane hit the front.
You're back into a center of bounce.
I mean, how did you assess that moment
and what was going through your mind?
Yeah, I think that five minutes I've watched about 10 times
And, you know, you train all your habits and behaviors
for when you need them most.
And grand final day is the time where you need that,
the great habits you've created with this training standards
or, you know, game plan education and, you know,
set plays, whatever it looks like.
We've, we've, we've trained habits around our close wins
and close losses or kill the game, win the game scenarios a lot.
And so when that happens, the staying in the moment,
the goldfish, the windscreen wiper, can't do anything about it.
Right away, get the sign up.
We're going to this mode and then the on-field leadership
to execute and go, we're all on the same page.
We've, we've trained that.
We've trained that for two years.
Train the situation, look after others and then get yourself right.
You know, those things are all there, trained and, and,
and readied for when you need them.
And sign goes up, ball goes up and, and then you just have
some complete, another skill and class and talent that executes
Dacos, handball to Geordie de Gaulle and kick across your body
You can't train that stuff.
That's, that's one of the draft.
So, you know, those, those unbelievable,
incredible talent able to shine above game plans and shine above moments and manage those
You win the premiership.
Can you compare standing there as a, as a coach of a premiership side to the, to the
three as a player is, is it, is it different?
Is it more special or how do you, how do you describe it?
Lee, Lee said that out in the field.
He says, oh, you're, you're remembering this a lot more as, than you did as a player.
And at the time you're just in it, but I, it's absolutely true.
I mean, as Joey's out here with his tattoos still wet and, and that man that walked past
my house crying with his dog and 106,000 members and yeah, you, you, as a coach, you're, you
represent all those.
You're the, you're the, you're the figure for those.
And I know our staff do all the work.
I'm not trying to say I do all the work, but you realize that you are driving a lot more
emotion when you got your own medal.
You and your team, you know, you do represent your fans and the like, but certainly as a
We've got a lot more people.
Flying the, uh, space that we're really passionate about the leader.
And as I said, we're incredibly grateful to connect with you and that success that leaves
clues and we saw these common traits.
We think that great leaders show and always start with an idea of self-leadership.
We think to lead anyone else.
If you haven't got an idea of your own self-leadership, what does that mean to you?
Yeah, I've spent a lifetime becoming this guy and I'm not finished.
So yeah, there's a lot of self-reflection, a lot of mistakes made.
Um, course is done, you know, I'm 50 now and you know, I, I think one of my great strengths
is my self-awareness, my emotional intelligence.
Um, I can read a room well, so I wouldn't go to the races the day before.
See, that's my cheekiness coming out, see, see the cheekiness, but yeah, that emotional
intelligence and being able to read body language and listen for clues from what players need
When people say, don't say things that they really want to say, you can hear it in anything.
So all that stuff, I think is important, but it's a, it's a lifetime to get here.
And a lot of lessons learned along the way.
It's a great line that I've spent a lifetime being this guy and it's not ending, you know,
it's that constant, never ending self-improvement we see is another real pattern of people.
They're curious always, uh, and continue to, to follow that.
We talk about leaders really conscious now for more than ever about the impact they have
On a daily basis.
So I'm, I'm curious of the answer here because I think that's something you're particularly
good at that positive impact.
When I walk into a room, when I walk into any environment, what's the positive thing
I'm doing around the people I'm at in any, in any scenario you're in.
I think, I think that's a natural course of my own energy.
Um, I don't find it that difficult to see the glass full, um, or close to it, um, see
the good in people.
So I think that's important.
And, and, and obviously with tiredness.
It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a good thing to have that step.
I think that's important.
And being pulled, your focus gets pulled in all sorts of directions through performance
and the role, but you know, coming back to what you're good at and, um, you know, I remember
we lost three games in a row that time when I had to go to that board meeting and, and
it was only my first year as a coach.
And there's a lot of different pressures that come with that, that you haven't experienced
before and I don't know what will come again.
But then, you know, sitting in a coma for two days in my bed going, what, how do I
You know, like, what do we do?
and playing a Friday night and finally get myself into an energy level
just to communicate with my wife, let alone anyone else.
And she goes, you know how to do this.
You know how to get out of this.
She goes, just be you.
There's a positive version of you.
So instead of looking at all the things we didn't do in that game
over the last two weeks, I scrapped it and just said to the coaches that day,
I said, boys, don't come tomorrow and show us what we didn't do.
I'm not interested.
Find evidence of all the things that we have done
and what we're going to do next.
Like, let's concentrate on the team we want to be,
not the team we are right now.
And funnily enough, it was a great reset of, like,
we might have tried to go too fast, too quick with the group.
When you go, no, they got that, they got that.
Let's go to this.
So we just went back in time and a little bit and said,
boys, if we're going to be this great pressure team,
we're going to do this.
So funnily enough, we won the next 10 games in a row, I think, from that.
But it was a moment that the group was potentially waiting for,
you know, that heavy stick.
And not to say that you can't give a heavy,
but at that time, they probably got what they least expected.
And it was a moment to go, all right, no, we need to be this team.
Let's go be this team.
So the 80-20 rule, if you like, of positivity or reward behaviour.
And then the 20% of, like, hey, let's get better in this area.
Creating and sharing a vision is something we see
a really common trait for great leaders.
And they're really clear on how they share that vision.
How have you gone about that?
The great thing about going for this position
was there was an extensive,
three-month exercise of presenting five or six times.
And one of the questions was,
what's your first three months look like?
So I only reflected on it about two or three weeks ago
because one of my close friends was going for another position at the club.
And he said, so I went back in time and had a look.
And there was the vision,
the cultural vision around who we want to be
and the pillars of, you know, family first
and connect with our past
and take the fans on the journey.
And so now to know it's two years later that we've lived at,
it makes me really warm inside.
I'm going, oh, wow, this is great.
You know, this, you know, water what you want to grow mentality
of reward the behaviour.
So, and quite often you have a vision.
And I think the best thing that I've experienced in two years
is get people around you that you share the vision with
and encourage or, you know, manipulate if you like
or get them to come on the same journey with you.
Or they can then take this to places you'd not,
never thought would be possible.
And, and so we've got great staff that have, you know,
not only, you know, Jared Wade had high performance,
he's gone to another level and I'm, I've got this vision
and then it's just so far beyond what I thought would be capable.
That's, that's exciting to start something
and then watch it grow.
You mentioned family first and I can't not acknowledge
because we see it in the industry, you know,
Bo McCreary's mum delivers a pre-game speech,
which is just, I mean, it's so funny
and it's so brilliant at the same time,
but it's not, you know, people have these values documents.
And they sit in the top drawer and no one really knows them,
but you've brought that to life.
Every time I look down the rooms,
the whole family are there and they're lining alongside the banner.
You've lived it, haven't you?
And, and, and I praise the partners, parents and,
and others that step into this.
Connection is a choice.
And the post COVID I've openly said was a massive ripple
for all of us in the footy world and life
that we're disconnected from all the things that we've wanted.
We want, we're humans.
We want interaction.
And so we set about family first and then,
you know, getting school holidays, kids in to run the water.
And then after games and all, you know,
it's just all the different layers of it.
Mother's day, all the mums come into the team meeting
and father's day, we did the same.
And, and then it was an opportunity mother's day
to have Julie McCreery come in and, and in line
with that, keep the meeting light to start the meeting.
It was just a perfect fit.
And little did I know that was going to, she went viral,
It was a, it was a great moment.
How did the call go when you rang Julie McCreery and said,
uh, do you want to do this?
A pre-game speech?
Well, it was all set up the day before.
So we had my pre-game meeting.
Um, this is how we're going to win the game and what we need.
Had mum, son, mum, son, all the way around the room.
And they got to listen to the.
They were part of the whole meeting.
And so, so we go, oh, you know, Donna Maynard, oh Donna,
what do you think here?
And she says something funny and the boys laugh.
Cause it's like, I think he, I think Bruzzy introduced
Donna as his, um, yeah, full-time, full-time Nuffie.
And so the laugh.
And I asked Jane.
Um, my check, you know, I had Brodie kicked five the week before.
How'd you feel about it?
Oh, about effing time.
You know, like, so just, just again, I thought it was one of the better
meetings that we had to set up again, because you got this genuine, um, I
didn't realize how attentive the players are when their mums are listening.
Yeah, they're in, you look at everyone's eyes, they're in.
So you don't, you feel like everything you're saying is just becoming truly
embedded in, in what we're trying to achieve.
I can set the people up well.
So then match day, you feel a comfort, but we've got
We've done the work boys.
And what a life memory for the mums fly.
It's often, you know, I look back and I get my own mum, it was sloughing so much
about the dads and the father, son, and, and, and the mums play an overwhelming,
uh, role in all of our lives, but probably don't get, you know, that
that'll stay with them forever.
And, and, and they all came in the meeting room before and photos and that's,
again, it's, you know, you want to be a family first.
What does it look like?
Well, that's what it looks like that we, we care about our mums and.
I still think we're scratching the surface of what we're capable of, or
got some other ideas how we make that even deeper.
But, you know, um, Bruce Pendlebury came to the father's day one last year and
he openly said his son's 17th year at that stage, that was one of the most
memorable times of his life for Scott's time at the, at the footy club, because
he was part of the team meeting and he's part of the gulking common gets Peter
Dacos and just, but it just gave a sense of we're all in this because we changed
Mote If you'd like early last year, we travel and Parteson, you can come.
Maybe it's old school that you couldn't, but now you can come bring your kids.
Whatever we lost the preliminary final by a point tears in the room.
There's kids running around, jack crystal kids, run around, um, you know,
wives and partners are there, right there when you're lost, when you need your
family the most because things haven't really, will you go to your family?
When things don't, I need my wife.
I need, I need someone to console them in order to reconcile with that.
So family, you're right there when you need them, so to keep the family coming
to enjoy the success of what we just had on September 30.
It makes it really special.
But then if we didn't, they're right there for you too.
So then you don't have to fall as far.
So I think it's certainly the club we want to continue to be.
Curiosity is a word that we see a lot of.
And through curiosity, we see leaders like you
constantly learning and improving themselves through curiosity.
Does that resonate?
Yeah, and hence the leader.
Once a month, you always find something new.
You know, there's always something little to improve yourself.
Yeah, I'm not a massive reader in terms of novels or biographies
or things like that, but I love to listen to podcasts.
You know, I just constantly just trigger the mind.
When you get old, as you know, it does.
There's a lot in there.
Sometimes you just need something to bring it back to the front, isn't there?
So you get lost in there.
Communicating with clarity is another dimension I want to ask you about.
And you do that in your own unique way.
Have you thought about why you communicate as a leader of your club?
I think one of the big things I'm conscious of is
whatever comes out of my mouth, I've got to live.
Don't say things you can't action.
For example, Billy Frampton,
I'd said to him a couple of weeks before the grand final,
I think, mate, I really want to give you an opportunity.
I'm not sure if it's going to be there.
But I wanted to give hope.
But don't give that hope unless you can fulfil it.
But yeah, I did a course in London 2021, I think it might have been,
or not 20, roughly.
And it was around gravitas.
Because like you said, I'm not the alpha male.
If I'm going to be a senior coach, I've got to have gravitas.
I've got to have presence.
And it taught me a lot about being in someone else's shoes when you present.
And then what did the audience want to hear now?
Where have they come from?
Have they come from, they just woke up in the morning at 7 o'clock,
do I need to wake them up?
All these little things that you learn when presenting,
but now being the face of the footy club, which I had never been before,
I didn't really love the media, to be honest.
Not that I didn't love them, but I didn't love the attention of it all.
But again, I think it's just about being yourself, really, ultimately.
Curious about doing a course on gravitas and presence.
So you recognise within yourself, you wanted to add some layers to that.
And can you give some more detail on that?
Yeah, it did help.
Yeah, little did I know, I already had a lot of it.
And it just made me need to believe in myself a bit more.
Yeah, the self-awareness is a big attachment to gravitas.
Yeah, authentic leadership, something that, you know, being yourself,
but also, yeah, the body language, the, you know, your tones,
you know, leaving little bits of yourself spread around the room
without even knowing it.
Like you're just saying less when more seems to be needed.
You know, I'm not saying anything here.
Silence can be really powerful.
So all these little things, yeah, well, the way you present
and, you know, I've got a lot of things to say.
I do love presenting.
So that's one thing that I do.
I see it as theatre, if you like.
You know, like it's a, it is a performance.
I like, you know, a presentation is a performance.
But I, every conversation, sorry, every presentation I ever do,
and I tell this to our coaches, make it a conversation.
Don't make it a presentation.
So then if you're having a conversation like we are now,
it's different to a presentation.
So then we set that up a certain way.
Yeah, and I think you're 100% on the money that so many of us,
full down because we're trying to be what we think great leadership looks like
and we're trying to be a version of someone else that we think,
and that's always going to fall short, isn't it?
The only option is to be ourselves and the best version of ourselves
because people pick up in a second, don't they, if you're not.
And that's, everything about you is authentically Craig McRae
and that's got as much gravitas as anyone has.
Well, yeah, it's my style and I drive past Colin,
we're still doing it, I can't believe we coached that club.
Lise is a great example of what, what, we both coached Colin
with premierships, gives a spell, that's not real.
So there's a real, I have good perspective on it,
but also I don't lose sight of how lucky I am to be doing this job
and it won't be forever, but I want to be the certain person while I'm doing it
and it's going to be challenged and tested and in all sorts of levels
and at some stage I'll shake hands and move on
and hopefully there's still a little authentic version of myself.
No doubt in my mind at all that,
whenever that day comes, that won't be a question that needs to be asked.
How important has collaboration been for you, Fyfe?
Yeah, I think I used to always approach things with a group mindset.
Okay, let's get together as a group and work through it.
Over time I've learnt that that can be of benefit,
but also it can be very time consuming.
So there's certain levels of collaboration that I approach things with now,
probably less than I once did.
Yeah, I don't mind saying, no,
the way we're doing it and then onboard people.
I know we started our DNA stuff and I contact the leadership group
and say, this is my idea and onboarded my idea
as opposed to saying, this is how we're going to do it.
As opposed to, oh, let's carry it in a room for two hours
and then let's talk about how we want to play.
We did that for the game plan, but certain levels of it,
I'm going, no, this is how we're doing it.
And then it's about how we're onboarding those people.
So I think I've changed a lot in the last three or four years
around collaboration versus saying,
sometimes you're just going to make a strong decision
and make people believe in it.
Yeah, it's smart, isn't it?
That understanding, isn't it?
You're employed to do that and you need to collaborate.
You need to bring people on board.
But if you go consensus on everything,
you're not going to get locked down all the time.
No, and I think in two years, Graham Wright in particular,
I've worked heavily with him.
I'm more right now in the case of take people on the journey.
So, yeah, this is why we're doing it.
And as opposed to what do you all think about it,
Everyone on the journey.
We're making this decision,
but take everyone on the journey to make that decision.
This is why we're doing it.
So that's from draft picks to leadership decision making
to changing schedules, whatever it looks like.
Take them on the journey.
Make sure they understand why we're doing this
as opposed to this element of surprise.
So I think, hence, even with the fans,
this is what we want to play.
Take them on the journey.
Explain why we're doing this as best you can.
I've asked these two questions of everyone.
I've had the great privilege of sitting down with it.
And I've thoroughly enjoyed doing that with you today.
Who's been the greatest leader in your life?
My dad would be number one for many reasons.
He's always got, you don't realize when you get older
how old your dad is.
He says some things, but he's definitely,
he's got more of a fixed mindset than me.
Yeah, he's a bit set in his ways, but he's 73.
But he's been incredible.
He's always been there.
From the journey, picking me up when I needed to be,
pushing me where I needed to go.
Tell us a bit more about him.
Yeah, boiler maker for 45 years.
Worked six days a week.
Had to earn everything he got in life.
Yeah, we ended up, my dad split up.
We ended up living in the caravan park together
and through some tough times in 16, 18, 19,
whatever it looks like before I got drafted.
Yeah, like he's a man of great integrity,
Yeah, he was there for me.
How much joy did he get out of grandfathering?
Yeah, he's still crying.
And I don't think I've ever heard him cry.
Or sorry, I've never seen him cry.
He texts me three days in a row.
He cried three days in a row from the birth of the baby
to premiership win and then to all the other parts of it.
So it's pretty special for him to still be alive.
He almost lost his life last year.
So it is pretty special.
And then there's so many different layers of leadership.
Obviously, Lee Matthews is probably the one
that comes to mind the most.
Yeah, just around football.
Lessons and all those things.
But I'm not going to lose sight of myself around leadership
because I made a lot of mistakes in so many different areas
and the resilience to change my own tack
and stick to who I want to be
and revisit those things over and over again.
Yeah, I think at one stage I'll sit back fishing somewhere
and be proud of the journey we've been on.
Yeah, I love the reflection and the self-awareness
that keeps coming.
And, yeah, I haven't had anyone ever answer it
with that final thought at the end, but it's profound.
And, yeah, in a lot of ways that's where it starts and ends, isn't it,
with our own ability to shift paradigm,
which you've been able to do.
We're obsessed at Alita with this idea of what collaboration looks like
and the idea of learning from each other
and how do we do that on a small scale
and a global scale as well.
So the question to me, if you collaborate with anyone
on anything fly, and you might have another passion,
another area of your life, is there someone you thought,
God, I'd love to collaborate with that person,
someone that springs to mind?
John Bertram, I formed a relationship with John.
We were just walking the town.
Literally the first day that I started this role,
took all the staff for a walk around the town,
grab a coffee, just to have an informal connection.
John Bertram's standing at the lights.
And I knew John was at Collingwood,
whether he was a director or he was definitely involved
way back when Mick was involved.
I mean, growing up as a kid in Adelaide,
Mary's Cup's huge.
He's one of the most famous Australians in the world.
Do you remember that morning?
I do vaguely, vaguely Bob Hawke's words
and waking up to this victory.
I didn't know much about it.
We're the same age.
I remember my dad got me out of bed and you've got to understand this.
And I remember I shared this with John.
I thought, this is the most boring thing I've ever seen.
What's happening here?
I didn't quite understand the gravitas,
but sorry to interrupt.
But John's been a big mentor and a big collaborator.
And so I performed an initial introduction at that lights
and he walked down a little bit.
I said, I'd love to catch up with him a bit more.
Do you mind if we walk the tan?
Because he lives there.
And within a week I'm walking the tan with John and just listening.
And just the stories, his involvement with the Olympic team
and swim team and the stuff he's doing now, his passion.
And that stayed true.
And I've caught up with him again at the end.
At the end of that year.
And then we've gone out to dinner, my wife and I and his wife.
And there's just this man crush on this guy because it's just someone
that continues to look to be better and mentor.
And yeah, what an incredible human being.
He's incredible, isn't he?
75 years of age, still racing and the great privilege of overlapping
with him in the elite space.
And he drops into a room and all he always says,
I know absolutely nothing.
And he starts every conversation with, and he just fires questions.
He's just constantly being curious.
And what's the game going to look like in five years?
He says that to me all the time.
I think we were last in centre bounces in 2022.
And just coming to the final series.
And I said, oh, mate, we've got some issues around our centre bounce and stuff.
He goes, well, what's it going to look like in five years' time?
Don't try to fix it now.
I said, oh, God, I just want to get tomorrow right.
But it's just constantly about that, that improvement.
And I think beyond what others are doing around the AI space.
And why wouldn't you be ahead of the game?
And to have someone like that, just a text message away
or a walk of the town away is pretty cool.
If you haven't seen the documentary on Netflix,
which tells the story of John Bertrand's America's Cup win
and his team and the detail on the links and being 10 years ahead,
I encourage you, it's one of the great documentaries.
Even if you have no interest at all in sport,
you'll learn something from John Bertrand.
Like I've learnt today, fly and sit down and marvel
at what you've been able to do.
The Authentic Leadership's a great story.
And congratulations, you deserve all your success
and look forward to watching what comes next.
Thanks for joining me.
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