A Listener Production.
G'day, it's Luke Darson.
The idea of self-improvement and leadership both on and off the field
has been a lifelong passion of mine.
With one of my oldest friends, we created a leader collective
and have had the privilege of working with thousands of leaders
in education, sport, industry and the arts
that have helped shift to what we see as the 21st century style of leadership
where everyone has a voice.
In this podcast, we hear stories from these iconic leaders.
Gus Wallen is a much-loved Australian television and radio personality.
Alongside his great friend Hugh Jackman,
Gus created the Aussie Go series for Foxtel.
For more than a decade, Gus hosted the grill team
on Triple M Breakfast Radio in Sydney
with rugby league legends Matty Johns and Mark Guyer.
Following the death of a great friend and mentor to suicide,
Gus has become a passionate advocate for men's mental health.
In 2017, Gus founded the Gotcha for Life Foundation
to support better mental health outcomes for men
running professional sports.
He has led programs in communities right across Australia.
Gus's leadership in breaking down old stereotypes
of what it is to be a real man has credited positive change
and led to men connecting better and breaking the silence around suicide.
Gus, I genuinely love catching up with you, mate.
I always feel inspired and I suppose wanting to be better, mate,
every time I'm around you.
Thanks for joining me today, mate.
It's a pleasure, mate.
I've loved your series and I really do feel honoured that you have me on.
You've had so many wonderful leaders chatting,
so I feel blessed, thank you.
Well, your legacy already is incredible.
Can I go back to that moment?
I have spoken to you before.
You lose a great friend.
He's maybe more than that.
He's a mentor, he's a big brother, he was your boss at one stage.
I truly loved him.
And I think your thought was if this happy, connected, smart person
can take his own life, we're all vulnerable.
Can you tell us about it?
He was my cousin.
He was my cousin's boyfriend.
Then he was my cousin's husband.
And on the day that his third and final child finished their HSC,
which is the year 12 in New South Wales, he took his own life.
And up until the moment that he took his own life,
he was thinking about others.
And I think that sort of sums him up.
He had status inside of work, status outside of work.
He was good looking, if that matters, wife, three children, much loved.
1,500 of us at his funeral a week later,
we'll tell you how much people loved him.
But when it came to the crunch, he couldn't ask for help.
He couldn't put his hand up and say, can you help me?
And I think looking back now, all these years on, I think he thought that
his whole existence was about helping others.
And if he showed any vulnerability that would perhaps take a little bit away
from him, but of course, as we know now, I'd love to have that moment with him
to say, Hey, I may not be able to fix your brother, but I am on the journey with you.
Let's go and find some solutions.
And that would have been a really cool thing to do because he helped me,
Das, with relationship issues, workarounds at work, just times when you're growing up.
And I didn't have a father figure.
My dad had left the family home when I was quite young.
I did my year 10 work experience with him.
Then when I was soul searching a bit in my twenties, not quite knowing what to do,
he said, come and work with me at Toshiba.
I ended up working all around the world for him.
when I got that phone call that day, I was at, in the UK, in London.
And I just literally couldn't believe it.
I dropped the phone.
I didn't even hear that he had taken his own life.
All I heard was Angus is dead and I collapsed and I, not until I got home,
uh, 20 minutes later, a friend drove me home.
Um, did I realize he had taken his own life?
I got on the next plane to Australia and I went straight to the police.
I said, there's just no way someone like him would take his own life.
And Das, that was my first real moment.
When a leader within the police put his arm around me and said, I can see you're upset.
Let's just go and have a cup of tea and I'll tell you what the stats are.
And I'll tell you what, what's happening in this country around suicide.
And, uh, that's when I first heard the stats for the first time, seven blokes
every day, two women every day, and one every 28 seconds attempting suicide in Australia.
Now, for any of your listeners, you, if you didn't know that they're shocking stats.
And I realized then that suicide doesn't discriminate.
And the numbers, Gus, you.
You've gone to that immediately because I think people still aren't aware.
It's the number one killer, 15 to 54 year old males.
The most likely thing you'll die from in Australia as a male is of suicide.
You know, we talked to you about the construction workers, the farmers, blue
collar workers are two and a half times the national average, uh, the indigenous
and Torres Strait Islander population is, is just a disaster.
And, and then if you factor in the other, uh, groups like the LGP TQI plus community
as well, their, their, their numbers are horrific in this space.
You were angry at your mate initially, weren't you?
You were, you were pissed off.
Yeah, I still, on the day that we celebrate, if that's the right word or remember, um,
him taking his own life to us, I, I still shout and scream at the heavens.
I, I think he's up there.
I'm not a particularly religious person, but I think if you're, if you're a half decent
person down here, why not think that there's something up there, you know?
Um, so I shout at the heavens and I say to him, why?
Nine grandchildren now that he hasn't seen, uh, just one example, his son's just
about to open his fourth coffee shop in the States, you know, two of them in New
York city because he turned up there as a backpacker and couldn't get a decent cuppa.
So he built a young man that didn't then whinge and whine about it.
Went, okay, I reckon I can make a cafe filled with Aussie backpackers as the
waiters make, um, Vegemite on toast for these New Yorkers and make a living,
found a beautiful American wife and now is living in the States.
that's the type of man he was. And I just can't believe that on that particular son's,
you know, last day of school, he would take his own life. It just, it saddens me. And I was angry
initially, but that's like everything you learn stuff, don't you? When you, well, hopefully people
learn stuff out of tragedy. Well, this is what I love about you, Gus, is that a lot of people have
tragedy in their life. Everyone does really at some point in time and your leadership is
incredible. You know, you can get angry. You've changed your whole life on the basis of that.
You've founded the Gotcha for Life Foundation. It's an incredible contribution. Can you tell us
about what that's about and why that was your answer to it?
Well, I basically, as you would know, I was on the same time as you, Triple M Breakfast in Sydney,
when you were on in Melbourne. And we pretty much, I think we started on the same day, actually. Ed
and I were, Eddie McGuire and I, the month before we all started, we're off trying to get advertisers
for the shows and stuff. And I was on the same day as Eddie McGuire and I, the month before we all
So you and I have been very sort of in sync there. Six years into our breakfast show, I said to
Maddie and MG, who are both big, boofy rugby league players, I said, guys, do you reckon we could spend,
I don't know, a couple of breaks every now and again, talking about a bit of vulnerability.
And they're looking at me going, where's he going here? Because I always will on my heart and my
sleeve. But I said, we've all got bits of ourselves that are either dropping off or not working as
well as they used to. We've all got teenage children. We've all been married for 20 plus
years. We talk about off air about, you know, we've all got bits of ourselves that are either
the struggles we have and the difficulties we have. Why can't we talk about that on air? And
they were like, yep, we can do it, but you go first. So I told the story about my friend and
the lines at Triple M Sydney lit up. We could not answer the phones quick enough. And we did
something we've never done on Triple M before where we didn't take, we took only phone calls
for an hour and a half. We finished at nearly 10 o'clock in the morning and it wasn't people
necessarily ringing me and saying, or ringing us and saying, oh, thanks Gus. It was, oh,
we've got permission this morning to talk about something that we normally don't have permission
for. Is this a safe place to put our hand up and go, I lost a friend or I'm worried about a friend
or I've lost a family member. So all of a sudden I went, wow, this is pretty cool. And then I was
able to get some funding from Movember and they did the man up program with me, which was
challenging masculinity in this country, why we lose so many blokes. And it was my journey on
trying to find out why my friend did what he did. And then at the back of that, as you know,
we speak to so many blokes on Triple M. I said, I've got to do more. And I started Gotcha for Life
and we've just ticked over $10 million given away to people that work in suicide prevention. It's
all about preventing, it's stopping people jumping in the river, not fetching them out downstream.
It's about letting people know that it's all right to challenge the rules on what it takes to be a
man and a woman in this country. It started off very much male, but now it's all Australians.
And we need to teach people through education,
that it's all right to challenge a few of these rules because they are archaic.
One of them, for instance, just as an example for you and your listeners,
emotions, why we keep burying them. Why can't we talk about them? And it's all about
doing it at the right time, of course, still having resilience and hard work, but
actually going, no, no, I need to find someone I can talk to about how I feel because
it was really affecting my life. And you're a great living example. You get a
guswell and hug when you're in your old company, mate. It makes me smile every time. And even that
is a breaking down of...
No more handshakes, mate.
Mate, I love it, mate.
Let's have a cuddle.
I'm not a natural hugger, but you make me a natural hugger when I'm around you.
I must say, Darce, you could work on your hug a little bit.
I've got to take feedback.
You're a little stiff.
A little bit stiff.
A little stiff, but hey, you've got potential.
It's a work in progress, mate.
There's probably four or five mates in my life like you who are huggers, and it's great because
you just know that's part of the deal and it should be. And then these are the stereotypes,
you said, Gus, that we joke about. I want to come back to Triple M and how we've been
accused in lots of ways of being part of the problem in the past as opposed to part of
the solution. But those stereotypes are literally killing males, aren't they?
Absolutely. It's a stereotype that is literally killing males and females. Don't forget, it's
seven-two in terms of per day, but the one every 28 seconds, they're predominantly females.
So it is a problem...
Those are the attempts to take...
So females do that more than males.
Correct. More of a cry for help from the girls from a lot of the time, but their numbers are
much higher in terms of trying to attempt. So that's an issue for all of us and everyone in
65,000 Australians a year attempt to take their life is the status.
That's right. So you think about it, 65,000 people on top of the nine a day that are taking
their life. And we celebrated for a New York Minute a month or so ago when the numbers came
out for 2020. We had a 5.4% drop in.
And we were losing 3,000 people on the roads. We were losing 3,000 people less than the
year before, but still over 3,000 people. So if we were losing 3,000 people, Dars, on
the roads, they would make cars illegal. Simple fact is this is happening and most people
don't even know about it.
And the old mentality was you don't talk about suicide because it will encourage other people
to think about it. We know that the data on that is complete rubbish.
Let's normalise the conversation.
We have to have these conversations, Gareth.
We're not that big on breaking down that silence on suicide.
Correct. And you've been a massive help on your program on the House of Wellness, being
able to come on like we do and have the support that we do to be able to do our work. To go
on like Channel 7 and to be able to talk about suicide, that's the new S word. You can say
S-H-I-T more than you can say suicide. So we need to break down that stereotype, normalise
the conversation. And like I said, it comes back to prevention through education. That's
the only way I reckon we can move forward. Leaders like yourself, a lot of people you'd
call friends who are leaders in the community, them stepping up and putting their hand up
and saying, you know what? It's all right to lead with some vulnerability because I'm a
human being. That's the key. That's what we need to get through to people.
So Gus, let me go back to the shared space where you and I have crossed over in Triple
M Radio and unashamedly, it's blokey, unashamedly, the audience is talking to majority of males
and occasionally people from the outside will say, well, hang on a minute. You guys think
that you're the new age open version of yourselves, but all you do is hang shit on.
Now, to me, coming out of sport, that is our humour. That is the sense of humour. But
have we got that wrong? Can you do what we do, Gus? Because when you're working with
Matty Johns and Mark Dyer, I'm working with Mick Malloy and all my mates from calling
the foot in the weekend, that is part of how we connect with each other. Is that still
okay as long as there is that emotional connection as well and support? Where's the balance?
Yeah, it's a tough balance to have. And I understand people and I sat up in front of
people at Triple M in Sydney the other day, all our big sponsors, you know, all the ones
that you'd hear on the station. And I actually said to them, we need to change the way that
we are. And then we had an incident in Sydney, whether your listeners know about it or not.
Good friend of yours, Anthony Maroon. Is that the one you're talking about?
Who decided that he'd had enough and that had gone too far and the on-air sledging,
he walked out and has decided not to come back into that slot. So that clearly went
too far in his mind.
Yeah. And I'd heard back the audio and I get where
everyone's coming from. But at some stage, we've got to realize that if someone says,
no, I'm not comfortable anymore, then that's the end of it.
And then, and you, as you know, you can have a discussion on air. Then we go to a song every
four or five minutes, right? Well, maybe not so much with you and Eddie, because he'd
wrap it on for longer. But the point is there is a moment there where that ends and you
can have a song and you can take your headphones off and you can say, hey, you've gone too
far there. You know, you've been very strong in a very emotional moments that we don't
have to go back and forth.
We don't have to go back over with Adam Goodes when you were really strong under a lot of
pressure. Because I know how easy it is to support your mate on air because that's what
you're meant to do. But if you absolutely know who you are, you should be able to draw
a line and a barrier to say, okay, we've gone over it now. Or you know what? Today's not
the day. You know, I've had an emotional day and whatever. And that means you need to be
a bit flexible and fluid. Triple M have got to understand that being a man is different
now than what it was when we were born in 1980. It doesn't mean we have to, you know,
have a deep and meaningful every time we talk or have a burst down in tears. But it
means that we've got that level now of understanding and a bit of vulnerability so we can push
the ante, but don't go over the top of it. Especially, Das, when someone says, I've had
enough today. You've got to respect the barrier. I've spoken to Hamish and Andy's. You would
have a lot, you know, radio icons in this country. And they had a rule because their
version of that was equally brilliant. They would constantly be winding each other up
Blindsiding each other on air and, you know, incredible radio people, great people to meet.
But they had this rule. Like if, if they stepped them up, they didn't go back on air, even
they meant they played three songs. We're going to sort out, we'll never go back without,
if I feel like you've overstepped the mark. And so, as you said, it means that there is
an opportunity, isn't there?
To be able to discuss something and say, okay, we're all good now and move on. And I, I had
the view that, you know, you're not trying hard enough if you're not having fun in that
But at the end of the day, I mean, who wants to, who wants to hurt someone to the point
when they want to continue to work? I mean, there's no fun in that.
No, exactly. And a few people just need to understand that we're not living in a locker
room either. Like I'm a sports fan and I've always worked with sporty people at the moment,
Jude Bolton, Wendell Saylor, like you say, Matty and MG beforehand. I watched as many
games as they played. I loved watching them play. Sometimes I was for them, sometimes
against them, but as a supporter, but I don't understand that locker room. I don't understand
that. And I've had plenty of times with Matty where I go, Matty, I don't know what's going
on today. Like, are you joking? Or because I'm, you know what it's like in brekkie, you
know, and I don't mind putting my hand up and saying, I'm just really confused today.
Like are we mate still, or are you just in a bad mood or whatever? And we had, we were
on air together for eight years and we had a couple of blow ups. But as soon as I put
my hand up and said, mate, I don't know where we're going here. Can you help me with this?
He would go, I'm sorry, mate.
And I thought we were still having a laugh because he didn't know. I haven't come from
your world. I would love to have played a game of test cricket for Australia or a game
of footy or play for the Hawks or whatever, but I wasn't. So you've got to give us non-sporty
blokes a break because it's a different world to where we came from.
And Gus, it's a really good point because you're in a competitive environment, in a
locker room, it's as robust as you could possibly imagine. And so your exchanges aren't really
Sometimes, even though I always felt there was a lot of love and a lot of, um, you know,
friendship below it, perhaps, you know, not using the language as well as, as you're teaching
us to do now, Gus, but then someone else from outside comes in and it's a bit like, what
the hell is going on here?
You know, that was, you know, a term of endearment that maybe isn't perceived that, that way.
So you, you've gone out and spoken in communities. You've gone into the Kimberleys and spoken
to the toughest of, of cowboys and regional and rural area. Are we finding a way, Gus,
for, for, for males to understand that?
Do we need to speak up?
I definitely think so, Darce, a hundred percent. But the longer you stay in that uncomfortable
silence and vulnerability, the better you'll end up being, because at the end of the day,
we are all human beings and just underneath the surface, everywhere I've been, literally,
if you scratch that surface and then you stay in that safe place enough, people will tell
you the truth. They will tell you how they truly feel. And they will fear, and they will
tell you straight up that they are trying to be something that they're thinking that
they've got to be, but really at the end of the day, they are just a human being and
they've got these feelings and they've got these thoughts. And it just depends if it
comes out in 10 minutes or it comes out in 10 days, or I've had people that I've spoken
to and a year later, they go, I get exactly what you feel now, because I was, I showed
enough courage to tell someone how I truly feel. And now my life is so much lighter.
The simple fact is we don't do that enough. You know, and I say to people, just find one
person in your friendship group.
And make them special. That gotcha for life friend, that one person you can talk to warts
and all about anything. You don't need to tell everyone because some of your mates just
won't get it. But if you start building those relationships, then you'll never worry alone.
And to us, worrying alone and leaders in particular, they worry alone all the time. So if you find
someone you can just be normal with, warts and all conversation with no judgment, then
you are so much better off than everyone else who worries alone too much.
It's a great line that you've got. I mean, I love the whole concept of gotcha for life.
Isn't it? And if you have got a friend in your life like that, you don't take that for
granted anymore because you articulate it really well. And that worrying alone is where
you lose great people like your great friend Angus. And so that is the message you've been
pushing, isn't it? Is to find someone. A great friend of yours, Hugh Jackman, has been one
of those gotcha for life friends, I assume, Gus, right the way through. Can you tell me
about that special friendship for you?
So five years old, Pimble Public School, up in the hard school.
In the streets of the North Shore of Sydney, which believe me, we're not. And we remember
the first day when the kindy teacher, Mrs. Fairbrother said, okay, grab one of you, grab
one of the other students and by the hand and walk into the class. And I happened to
get hands with the Wolverine. And we went all the way through, best man at each other's
wedding, did our 18th birthdays and 21st birthday speeches. And when I had Jack before he had
Oscar, he was godfather.
Godfather. And I'm Oscar, his first adopted child's godfather. I spoke to him only an
hour or so ago. He just, in fact, today it was no show for him because it was Sunday
night, but he'd just gone for dinner with the kids and was getting some New York cheesecake
and they were going to watch Big, the movie Big. Like he's just very normal. You wouldn't
expect that probably. But we became great friends right from the start. And I suppose
our friendship has never, ever been anything but like a best friend.
And now even more so. And he spoke at a big relationship summit only the other day. And
I got all these new followers all of a sudden because obviously he spoke about our relationship
and that I literally, I chipped him a few times. You know, I said, you know, not contacting
me for a week is not good enough. Like I've got stuff on and I've contacted you and you
haven't contacted me back. And it sounds like a bit needy, but you should be a bit needy
with your best friends. I don't mean being vulnerable and saying, I need your advice
Like I'm struggling. I'm tired. I think I might make a blue if I show too much emotion.
So call me back. And all of a sudden that our relationship, he went, you know what? He's
never had anyone since he became Wolverine tell him what to do except Deb. But you know
what I mean? He's like, he's the most wonderful person, literally the most wonderful person,
the most generous person in the world, but he's not perfect. And as me, as a friend,
I needed something. And that was five years ago. And our friendships continued.
And I'm very fortunate that we've been able to have a relationship. And I'm very fortunate
that we've been able to have a relationship. And I'm very fortunate that we've been able
to have a relationship. And I'm very fortunate that we've been able to have a relationship.
The way that we treat each other, the way that we just are honest with each other and the
way that we respect each other. Um, yeah, I'm very fortunate.
He's a board member of, of got you for life. You film your first series for Foxtel. He's
the producer behind it, Gus.
Well, that was one of the great stories because he was doing a movie for Woody Allen in London
and he rang me up. He said, I've just met Ricky Ponting. I said, Ricky Ponting, are
you kidding? He goes, man, I'm walking along the street, going down, you know, I'm walking
to Harrods. Ricky Ponting comes out of the department store with his wife. He said, I
just can't believe it. And he was just, I said, slow down. He goes, okay. Okay. Takes
a breath. He goes, he said, can we go, do you want to come to the cricket on Saturday?
The boys would love to see, why don't you come in after the test match and meet the
boys, have a beer. And I said, are you telling me that Ricky Ponting said that we can go
to Lords? Cause I put the Royal We in there, right?
Yeah, I'm in. I was in Lincolnshire. So I was only in my head. I'm already on the, on
the, on the train down to London. This was on a Wednesday.
And he goes, yep. He said, there's going to be tickets left at the gate. And then at
the end of day's play, here's a number for the assistant manager. Meet at this gate and
See, I love the fact that Hugh Jackman's that excited to meet Ricky Ponting. I mean, that's,
people wouldn't understand. You're both cricket fanatics.
Absolute cricket tragics, right? So Jacko goes, so he goes, you win. I said, mate, absolutely.
I'll come down on the Friday. This was a Saturday, 2005 series. So that was going to be day four
of the test match. Beautiful. He said, I'll get my,
my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my,
my brother and my uncle to come as well. So the four of us there, we're watching the
cricket, Australia on top, about four wickets left to get the next day. So the test match
was pretty much over, go one nil up, 2005 series, which ended up being one of the great
series. We walk around and everyone chickens out except Jacko and I. The uncle goes, I
don't want to be in the Australian dressing room because he's a pom. And Ralph, Jacko's
brother, who's an absolute legend. If you think Jacko's good, then Ralph's even nicer
bloke. Anyway, he goes, I just don't feel comfortable. I think the dressing room's for
the Australian cricketers. And I'm like, all right, see you later.
So up the stairs we go and we open up the door and all of a sudden all these idols,
like Warnie was in the nude. Brett Lee was in an ice bath. Stuart McGill at the time
was wandering around getting on drinks. Hayden and Langer in the corner, just talking cricket.
McGrath was over there talking to Gillespie. And we're looking around and they look up
and it's like, they're looking at Jacko going, oh my God, Hugh Jackman's here. And then Jacko's
looking around going, oh my God, the Australian cricketer's here. And then Ricky Ponting comes
over with a towel around him and goes.
G'day Hugh, thanks so much for coming. And I'm going, oh my God, that's Ricky Ponting.
And I'm looking around this. Anyway, two and a half hours later, he's taken every photograph
with them. They've taken photographs with him. Players have rung up their wives and
said, Hugh Jackman's in the dressing room. I'll put him on. It was this mutual love in.
And I spent on that old balcony that you would recognise from watching the cricket, that
little balcony where the players sit. Ricky Ponting still with his towel around him. Hadn't
gone to the shower. Two and a half hours later.
Two and a half hours later, talking to us out on the balcony. For at least an hour of
that, it was me. And I must've said four times to him, I don't want to hold you up if you
want to have a shower. And he goes, no, no, mate, I'm all good. And we just chatted. We
both left with a Matty Hayden, grey nickels cricket bat. And we were like shadow boxing
as we're waiting for Jacko's limo to come around the corner to pick us up that had been
waiting there since six o'clock. This is 8.30. They had to go because they still needed four
wickets the next morning. So we then go home. Jacko then goes, you know what? We've got
to give everything.
I'm an Australian cricket supporter like you and I, that experience, if we can. I wonder
how we can do that. Nothing else has spoken about for a year. We end up losing that test
series. Jacko's back in Australia, reading the Daily Telegraph in Sydney. And it says
one year to redemption. It was one year before the Poms were coming back out again. Got him
thinking and goes, rings me and goes, I reckon we can pitch a show to Brian Walsh at Foxtel.
Why don't we call it like an Aussie goes, Bahami, or you can live with the Bahami. I go,
what? Did you say you can live?
I guess, mate, you're 38 now. You've always wanted to be on telly. I reckon we can do it.
And I'm like, you reckon? Anyway, a couple of months later, David Ginjo at the time was
with this production company. Jacko pitched it to Brian.
Channel 9 at the time. Yeah, of course.
Exactly. And all of a sudden we are up and running and I leave my job at Toshiba. They
give me six months off because everyone thinks this is going to be a lead balloon and whatever.
Anyway, six months later, that show comes out and Aussie goes, Bahami, it goes well.
And Aussie goes, Bali, which I went to India, which is where Andrew Simons and I became
really close because we had the monkey gate over there and I was there and we got the
footage of them doing what they did to him and me just abusing him back. And he saw that
and that got us really well connected. And then an Aussie goes, Calypso, where we went
to the West Indies. And then I was actually in these studios here at Triple M Melbourne
promoting an Aussie goes, Calypso. And the boss of Triple M was in a cab at the time,
Dobbo, Guy Dobson, who was a weird lead.
In his own right. Coming in in a taxi from the airport to the radio station. And he said,
that bloke can tell a story. We need a new breakfast show in Sydney. So I'm going to
offer him the breakfast show gig. And that's how it all started. So from 38 nothing, now
53. That's how all that experience came.
It's boys own annual stuff there, Gus, isn't it? To get on the inside. And I love it, isn't
it? Because you can tell me how normal Hugh Jackman is and clearly the friendships you
form in the Australian cricket.
And what I love also now, that continues on. Steve Smith's got a great relationship
with you, another Australian cricket legend. He's been kind enough to go with you into
schools. I've seen some of the vision of that, Gus, getting back to your passion for mental
health space, to see superstar cricketers with the next best batting average alongside
Don Bradman come into a school and talk about his own battles with mental health. Tell us
about how important those stories are and what it's done for some of the next generation.
Yeah. So Smithy, obviously, with what happened in South Africa.
Got the year ban. He had 100 hours as part of that ban to do community service. And he
rang me and said, look, I just don't want to go and do what would be easy, like just
go to clubs and show kids how to bat and that type of stuff. I actually want to tell him
a story. Do you reckon there's something we can do around Gotcha for Life? Because he's
always been a fan of that. And I said, Smithy, the only way this will work is if you're
fair dinkum. If you walk in there to a school and you waffle a little bit and you don't
Answer all the questions. It's a complete waste of time for everyone. And it's just
a ticking of the box on the hundred hours. You've got to literally tell the truth and
give these kids a lesson on what it takes to be a proper leader, i.e. putting your hand
up and going, I made a mistake and this is what I'm going to do about it. And I'm going
to cop what's coming my way. You've also got to remember that it was a much bigger deal
in Australia when it happened than what was over in South Africa. By the time he arrived
back from South Africa with Bancroft.
And, and Warner, the ICC had given them a one match ban. That was it. So all of a sudden
we've got Turnbull, the prime minister at the time saying, well, they've got to be sacked
and they should never play for Australia again. It was a huge thing over here. He walked into
that and went, oh my God, this is much bigger than I thought. But he had his dad, he had
his manager, he had his best mate at the time, his fiance now wife, all of them saying to
him, get ready for this. We're here for you, but this is going to be bigger than you think.
So he told that story in front of kids.
In front of kids. The moment when he broke down, if people can remember, any of your
listeners, remember them breaking down at the press conference at Sydney airport when
his dad put his hand on his shoulder, showing that vulnerability. He cried two or three
times when I was with schools. We've done 48 schools together now. His hundred hours
was over years ago. He's been back on the team for three years. He just goes, Gussie,
I've got a week off here and there because his schedule's ridiculous. Book us in a school,
book us in, let's do a video so we can send out to all the clubs in Australia. Like he's,
he's now producing what he wants to do.
What he wants to do with us, but it only comes because he's fed income. Never worn
his heart on his sleeve as much as he has done over the last few years. And when he
got the captaincy from Pat Cummins in the Adelaide day night test match, when it, when
Cummins had the COVID, I cried in the triple M dressing room that morning. I then got a
chance to interview him after the test was won. He is such a better leader now and a
better human being now because of what he went through. However, he's now, he's now
the perfect deputy for someone like Cummins, who's exactly what cricket needs. So he's
tucked his ego aside and he's worked out leadership comes through vulnerability. And that's really
what I talk to a lot of leaders about now is it's all right to puff your chest out.
It's great to be resilient and hardworking, but vulnerability and being human and being
authentic, that's where people want to be led now, especially the younger generations.
It's a great conversation, Gus, and you're so well equipped for this conversation because
you spend a lot of time on it.
Jesus, it's a hard task now, isn't it?
Because we need to be vulnerable, but we need to also, you know, be strong at times as well.
You know, the best description I've heard of it, and I think about it all the time, Steve
Biddle for the legendary author, Raising Boys, Raising Girls, sold 4 million books.
He's on my board as well.
Is he watered champion?
If you can get hold of him, mate.
He's on his farm in Tassie.
He was kind enough to join me on the podcast.
Did he come in here?
It was here in Melbourne.
Didn't get him in Melbourne.
great way of describing this because as you know legend he's gone around and spoken to thousands
and millions of people and he tells a story about predominantly female audiences for him
wanting to learn about parenting he asked the girls what what makes the perfect man he said
you know they start off with brad pitt or gus warman yeah at the start and then and then they
when they break it down they start saying i want someone who's got some empathy i want someone with
some vulnerability but i don't want to you know but it's soft cock either i wanted to have some
you know and so he he describes it as you know heart and spine or heart and backbone i think of
the two it's not a bad way to think about is it for us males it's also it's important but if we
don't leave with some heart along the way yeah we're not really going to be anything it's confusing
though it's really confusing at the moment i remember talking to my grandfather before he passed
and he goes it was easy for me i put on my suit put my hat on i went off to work i read the paper
on the tram or the train depending on where he was living at the time i went to work
i brought home a pay packet i put i went got home and your grandma had dinner on the table
the house was tidy blah blah blah and he looked around at our life before he passed and he's like
wow there's a lot going on here my wife's working i'm working kids are a little bit all over the
shop the house doesn't look in that flash it doesn't bother me but for him it was like so
confused he goes so who does what i go whoever can do whatever they can do whenever they can
do it and if things don't get done that's okay
but that's when i talk to a lot of blokes now they are they're sad they're confused and they
are worried that they'll never quite be good enough and that's the thing that makes me sad
about talking to as many blokes as i did as i do i spoke to a really posh school up in sydney the
other day it was a day it was a dad son night 230 dads 230 sons at this school that had always said
no to any mental fitness which is what i call mental health they they said
you know what we've got our own stuff we don't need you thanks very much but they brought us in
i walked out with the headmaster two hours later he walked me to his car
he said that could be the most significant night that i've ever had as a teacher now this bloke
is a headmaster now has been through 30 years of experience to see dads walk in looking as about
as interested as or disinterested i should say as as you can imagine to an hour and a half later
looking their sons in the eyes crying hugging some of them getting up at
too much and then coming back again and realizing what a moment this was this connection where you
could actually just be human that's the key being human for some reason we've thrown away
what it takes to be human we've just gone well this is these are the rules no no these are the
rules that you can set now i go to schools and say what an opportunity for you guys and your
generation to go we're not doing it that way anymore we're doing it this way and you can
teach granddad you can teach dad that that what an opportunity that must be when i went through
153 i got put in my box do your bloody job if not you're out now these kids have got this sort of
fluid thing use it as an opportunity rather than something that's too confusing but you know i live
in this space i understand that's easier said than done the beauty of it gus is it is a learned
skill again isn't it we're having a lot of these conversations on this format uh this this this
piece around you're actually going to learn to connect again you've got to do what you do i mean
you get a text message from gus just checking in mate how are you you know i've got you for life
you know they're they're stuff that's practical that you can do and you think about the upshot
you know i look at our generation and how connected we are to our kids you know you're a father of
three you know i feel sorry for our grandparents and because they you know they had it easier in
one way but they probably didn't get in and get the genuine joy that we get by actually having
some equity around the family and tell me about about that gus your leadership as a dad i know
you're a passionate father
how do you approach that well das i've had my life has changed so much since the man up program
and i gave myself an uppercut one morning and went mate you're going down the wrong path here
trying to be a little bit you know like this is the way it is you know my way or the highway type
thing so i remember and if people watch the man up program it's brilliant by the way thank you
you can do it abc i view you yeah they've still got it five years later still got them streaming
and we've just ticked over a hundred and something million views
amazing we gave the way to the world through covid and a lot of people i think found a podcast
found a book found a tv show in in in lockdown or in moments where we slowed down a bit to go
i need a bit of help here i wonder if i can find something we'll find this if you haven't
before it's a brilliant three-part series mate i loved it educational what why do you need to
give yourself an uppercut because episode two i'm sitting off camera watching my son and 15 of his
mates in year 10 at this night and i'm like oh my god i'm going to go to bed i'm going to go to bed
knock about school where my son went if you drove past my son's school you thought you'd be driving
past shawshank redemption people go that i'm i was born lucky and i was with a silver spoon up my ass
which i was but i wanted my son to go to my old school blazer boda type school he said dad that's
not me that's you can i go to this local school where all my mates from the primary school are
going i went mate as long as you keep your standards up and your mother says it's all right
good to go because my wife's a teacher so she went i went and saw the headmaster he seems a nice
let's give it a go so i'd known these boys in this piece for oh since primary school so six or
seven years and i saw this facility out of tom harkin and when you're talking about leadership
you should talk to him he is a boy whisperer he's incredible how he makes a room safe enough to boys
to feel safe and he sat down and i'm off camera looking through a monitor and i see my son and all
these boys that i love his best mates in floods of tears within 20 minutes they walked in thinking
this is a goof off a couple of hours off school and they just went they just knocked them for six
once boys being vulnerable talking about their feelings talking about the problems i have at
home with mum and dad not so well or someone not being someone being sick or the relationship's
just about to burst and seeing my son who i'd never thought have have any drama all of a sudden
to realize he was worrying alone about all this stuff yeah so i went home with him that afternoon
and i said mate i saw what happened because he didn't see me i was in another room and i was
watching it on a monitor and he goes oh yeah and i go so what is it that you worry about brother like
you know that mum and dad are always here for you we love you whatever you need and he goes i know
all that dad but i just don't know if i'm going to be a man or like if i'm going to be a good man
and i'm like what do you mean in this full-on thing conversation for an hour and he says at
the end of it i honestly thought dad at 18 i needed to have all the answers and i said mate
still fumbling and bumbling my way through life like you ask me a question i will bullshit you
more than actually knowing the answer but i'll use some experience and i'll use a little bit of
knowledge and common sense and i'll give you oh you know i'll give you a decent ride along and
i'll probably be able to help you with that stuff but you don't need to worry about having answers
mate he goes yeah but you gotta drive you gotta vote you gotta drink you gotta i said yeah it
takes ages like forever to actually know what you're talking about to us the pressure that
came from me and dad was like i don't know what you're talking about i don't know what you're
talking about i don't know what you're talking about i don't know what you're talking about
off my son's shoulders that day i could just see it he just went oh it's okay and i went yes it is
and that's just so many boys at the moment probably looking at fathers that are listening
to your podcast who are looking at their dads thinking their dads are absolutely james bond
or absolutely this is the way that you need to lead your life because those fathers have never
been truly human with them to say hey i'm doing my best here and you know what the most important
thing is your mother your your brother you and your sister whoever the makeup
might be having those conversations where you're actually vulnerable all of a sudden
the pressure's off your kid you don't want to keep putting pressure on your kids i
that's like i spoke to a father the other day who had four acceptances at university in front of him
on the coffee table on one side of the coffee table he's on the other this boy had taken his
own life before his hsc results had come back he thought that he had failed because of the exams
and how they went and now this father whose wife has left him
because she believes that he put too much pressure on the child
he's now got these four acceptances sydney uni union new south wales like all the big ones
in new south wales and his son didn't even hang around for the results that's the type of pressure
a lot of these kids are going through so my my way of looking at things is having vulnerable
conversations just takes that little bit of pressure off it's a tragedy mate it just breaks
your heart to hear to hear that story and i think you know you'll never be the same
again you just can't you can't recover from that can you mate and and i know you know for you to be
open enough to say i think you know we all one level think you're trying your best but these
are important conversations for me because immediately you cast your eye back to your
own and you want to make sure are we inadvertently putting pressure on absolutely we are yeah we
didn't understand so i don't know your kids from a bar of soap if they walked in now i wouldn't
know them right but i can guarantee that your kids would look at you and go look at dad he's good
you look like a man you look strong you've done well you've been on billboards you've been on the
telly they hear your voice on the radio they hear your voice on the telly you've made a bit of coin
you've got your life sort of but they actually don't know all the vulnerabilities you have
shortcomings and the you know the moments where securities and the you know am i good enough and
and all that and have you spoken to them about that well you know that's a it's a really good
point gus because i can't say i have you know and i i you'd like to think
and you know i'm reflecting as you're talking to me now it came from uh a junior footy game just
just before our conversation and i and i'm sitting there our youngest is playing and you don't
realize you do but you don't there is a reflective pressure because the fact that you played the game
at the highest level and back at our style is very much we love you no matter what we're here
to support you we don't overlay any language around you know in fact one of my favorite things
around particularly around the junior sport is a study i read a long time ago the only thing i say
nothing else nothing more no coaching no uh because you know it doesn't matter so long as
they're connected and happy but you're right and so the thing is that he how does he feel that's
right you're doing that your missus is doing that all that stuff but he's sitting there going and
the little kid that goes into the huddle and goes oh yes your dad there he was a legend you're never
going to be as good as him because the big brother or the dad has said that on the way oh you're
playing luke darcy's son today that's right and all of a sudden it's like oh what it's true man
they hear and see everything yeah and without that open conversation my dad played as well
gus and i can remember that too you know i was a father son i can remember hearing that whispering
going on i look i've had a look at him he's nowhere near as good yeah that's right and
you know it's terrible kick on the kid yeah that's right you should have seen his dad yeah
exactly it doesn't look very courageous this version yeah um i i use that for it looks way
too pretty to play footy i'll use that for a bit of fuel along the way but that's what i love about
conversations too catching up with you we want to be challenged we want to try and be the best
version of ourselves and that that makes an incredible uh amount of sense gus we are really
passionate i am around what leadership looks like in all different forms and shapes and so i see
your leadership story as being incredible and it continues to be like today you've challenged me
today in a really good way to go home and and think about that and act on it and but we're
identifying these sort of common traits of leadership gus starting with self-leadership
as a term we say we're going to be the best version of ourselves and we're going to be the
real uh self-aware leaders are thinking about what does that mean to you i suppose for me is to
really strip myself down and that's probably what i did that day with jack to realize that i needed
to give myself an uppercut but then continually work on myself and not not looking at working on
myself is selfish time because that's definitely what a lot of blokes when i speak to them about
it i haven't got a couple of hours a day or i've got a couple hours a week to meditate and to
think about that or whatever and i'm just it's all about stripping your life down to realize
what you're not really trying to do with it and that way this is what helps me right if i'm frustrated
you know your more than, mean, soaked, my background is.
your more than, a beautiful and we have to work on
i don't think there's anythingthe there's
it's the greatest thing I've ever heard. I love this. So I was like, you've got room for another
one. Absolutely. And then one of his mates wants to come and his dad's come. All of a sudden we're
up and at them, we're going next month. So I didn't want to be the dad at the end of the line
that everyone was waiting for all the time. I wanted to sort of be the middle of the pack at
least and so forth. So work on myself in terms of trying not to yo-yo with my weight, meditating 20
minutes in the morning, 20 minutes at night, making sure that I pay forward at least once a
day. Like I was over at the cafe before I saw you here in Melbourne and I just said the next $20,
whatever it is, if it's someone buying a sandwich or the next five coffees or probably in Melbourne
next three coffees for 20 bucks, I'd like to do that. And I've just set these rules up now that
are just non-negotiable. So water, so hydration, breathing, sleep, and generosity. So they're the
things that I have to do every single day.
And if I'm not doing that, I'm not going to be able to do it.
And if I don't, then I'm failing myself. So that's what I'm doing.
That is serious self-leadership, Gus. I love it. You know, I've spoken to you about meditation
before as a passion.
Yeah, well, you were one of the reasons why I was like, I can do it. Then I can do it. Then I found
a guru that's helped me with it.
Well, mate, going back to our Triple M days when I started, one of the questions is, as you would
know, leadership in media is an interesting space. We've had some discussions around it and someone
asked me in this space, we know you played footy, we know you're passionate about a number of things.
What else do we not know? I said, oh, I'm a passionate meditator. And they said, oh, don't say
that. Whatever you do, don't say that on air because people won't want to listen to you. And
I've been combative, sort of said, how about I say whatever I decide? And if you don't, then you can
hire someone else. And of course it came up in conversation, but it was a bit like your story
around opening up and having an hour and a half of talk about it. We found it was the truck drivers
and the guys on the work side who were saying, shit, I've thought about that. I could do that
You gave them permission.
It opens up conversations, Gus.
See, that leadership of the person that said that to you, and I got a feeling I might know who it
Can we name a name today?
No, remember kindness.
Kindness. But that type of stuff is just so old fashioned and just BS. So you actually standing
up, Jacko's been meditating for 25 years. I remember in 2000, I was on the set with him in
Los Angeles of, I was with John Travolta. What was the movie?
What was the movie called?
Some good name dropping here.
Yeah, I know. Well, that was a great night with JT. I call him JT. But he was on, we're on the film set
there and Jacko just said to me, Swordfish. And Jacko said to me, mate, I just need to meditate
for 10 or 15. And I was like, what? He goes, I've got to meditate. I went, no worries at all. So I
sat in his trailer, not as big as JT's, I must admit, but I was just sitting there and he literally
lay on the floor, put his legs up on the chair. And for about 10 minutes, he was like, I'm going to
10 minutes. He just got into this zone. Anyway, woke himself up after about 10, 11 minutes and he
goes, I literally feel like I've had a proper night's sleep. And I said, so this is how you
can do it. This is your energy levels. Cause he then had to do a whole lot of car chase scenes
that night. Um, had they'd, they'd, you know, closed off the streets in LA to shoot this
wonderful car scene with guns and all that jitter jazz. And I just stood on the sideline, just
watching it all exhausted. And there he was doing all his stuff. And he goes, mate, I've been doing
it. I've been doing it. I've been doing it. I've been doing it. I've been doing it. I've been doing it. I've been
it. A bloke told me about it. And 25 years later. So that story, and I have read a lot about this
as someone who, who learned nearly 20 years ago, David Lynch, the legendary Hollywood film producer
who is iconic over there, put $50 million into a foundation around teaching transcendental
meditation. And then Hugh Jackman, your mate, and, and almost everyone have worked out because
the research is incredible. You know, 20 minutes of that, the equivalent of four hours of deepest
sleep. There's so many independent studies. And so once you work out, you know what,
that 20 minutes actually, you know, even if you believe what I say, if you think I'm not
bullshitting with that, and I'm a great skeptic on everything. Once you work out, it gives you
that sort of energy and that sort of clarity. Well, I've never, I've never been, I've never
been busier, literally. And it's emotional busy too, like literally emotional busy. Start my day,
finish my day with a lot of emotion, doing the drive show where you've got to be a half a smart
ass all the time and be thinking really clearly. And then doing keynotes and so forth around emotion
like I am with gotcha. And I've never,
I sleep well, I wake up before the alarm and it's all because of meditation.
Right. And you're looking great, Gus. You're looking as good as I've seen you for forever.
We see this version of leaders in the 21st century now really conscious around
how they positively impact others in their environment. That, that is you to me. Like
you have a positive impact on everyone that, that you are around. Is that something you've
consciously thought? I mean, what you did before in the coffee shop, it doesn't surprise me, but
is that, has that always been you? I've always worn my heart on my sleeve and I'm
told by people that you're just like you were when the first time I met you or you go to an
old boys do 35 years, it'll be, but would have been COVID. So it's coming up this year. Um,
they're like, Oh, Waller, where you just always smiling, always happy. You know, you were the
bloke and you know, I was at the tuck shop a lot as a youngster. And they'd always say you'd buy
an extra something, or if you had an extra 20 cents, you'd give it over. And so I did that
without really thinking. I think I got that from my mom. Who's very giving. And, um, do I,
I listened to a lot of smart people and I try to put in place stuff that they tell me to do
a lot of successful people. And I, but my grandfather said something to me,
Das, before he passed, I loved my grandfather on my, on my mom's side. And he said to me,
people will tell you that you can sell ice to Eskimos. You're a born salesman.
That's what I've given you. Cause that was his genes. But he said, you will never be able to
sell something unless you believe in the product. And he's absolutely right. Like I tried car
salesman for a while. I've been a car salesman for a while. I've been a car salesman for a while.
I'm just hopeless. Like, you know, I'd never sold a car and people were like,
thought you'd be good at that. And it's because I didn't like the brand of car that it was at
the time. And I actually knew that the Toyota across the road was going to be better. So I
just went, well, check across there, the Corolla, you know, and people go, well, you can't let a
customer go. And I'm like, I just, it just didn't get it. But Toshiba, I went to, which is where
my friend, you know, who passed away, who took his own life. That's where he was when he took
his own life. He, um, he said to me, these products are the best. And I'm like, well,
we went to the, went to Japan, went to the factory, saw how they're made quality stuff,
right? So I could literally stand up and go, these are the best laptops out there. They're
more expensive, but total cost of ownership will be this over a period of time. And that being
authentic, people just went, I believe him. And I was very successful. No one had ever won
a sales award more than once. I won four years running because I just absolutely believe that
the Toshiba laptop was the best one. They're not even around anymore.
Like I'm shattered for that. They're dino book now, which I do work for them and they help me
with gotcha for life. Cause that's the connection between my friend and I, but yeah, absolutely have
to be authentic. And I reckon Dars, with 2022 now, authentic has got to be the word. Surround
yourself with people that get you for who you are. No more bullshitting anymore. Leadership
will come down to being fair dinkum and human. Brilliantly said, mate. And, and, and shared
values, isn't it? So, you know, if you've got that alignment, someone authentically around,
you, who you value is a gift in life.
I'll tell you what Dars, it was one of the big banks. I won't say what it, who it was.
There was 28 of their executive team. They got me to come and talk to them. And I've
got this chat at the moment called the village, all about the people that really mean something
to you. You can love a thousand people. You and I love each other, but I'm not in your
village. If you actually wrote down the people you love and adore, and you cannot imagine
living without, I'm not in that. So everyone listening, write down your village. So they
was talking to this group about that. And I said, who's the big dog in the room? I had
no idea, female, male, who was actually the big dog in the room and everyone's giggling
and laughing and so forth. And this bloke goes, oh, I suppose I am. I said, okay. And
as I'm saying this to him, as I'm looking at him and going, this is going to be not
good for me. He's not going to pay the invoice. I'm thinking I'm pushing this bloke too far.
He was a bit of an old school guy. And I said, everyone be quiet. No one speaks except you
for the next two minutes, but you've got to tell us something that you've never told your
team before and just left it.
45 seconds of silence in that situation is a lifetime. There was silence in that room
and everyone going, what's going to happen? And he looks at me after 45 seconds and goes,
you're not letting me off the hook. I said, I'm not. He took a big breath. He put his
big boy pants on and he went, okay. And he spoke about his son. And I won't tell you
the story because that was for our room. Everyone in that room got up. Everyone waited in line
and everyone gave him a cuddle.
And when we all sat down and gathered ourselves and wiped away the tears, I said, does anyone
not want to work for this man anymore? Is anyone not going to do an extra couple of
hours if he asks you to? Is anyone not going to run through a brick wall? And everyone
nodded. And I said, that is leadership. You've just shown vulnerability for the first time
in your life to the important people in your world in terms of work. Do more of that.
Yeah. It's brilliant, mate. I can hear the emotion again. And you, when you retell that
story, I had the great pleasure of talking to Brian Hartzell, who was a former CEO of
the West Cap Bank, went through the Royal Commission into the challenges with the banking
industry. And you don't normally think of bank CEOs in the vulnerable, open, accountable
space. I just had so much admiration for him after spending some time exactly like that.
And those people touch 40,000 people. They're employees. So if the culture gets set, and
Gus, if you can influence leaders who are successful, who are successful, who are successful,
and who are really proud and who are really, really, really, really proud, who are historically
were the opposite of that, and that allows all of those people, because we know if you
go to work and the leader shows that sort of vulnerability and that sort of opener,
then you go and pass it on to your own family. The ripple effect is enormous, isn't it?
Oh, absolutely. But you got to take a little bit of a leap to vulnerability from
the old school, like you say, puffing the chest out and making out that everything's
okay when it perhaps isn't. Like I said, it goes back to it. We're not bursting into tears
every five minutes. We're not having deep and meaningfuls all the time, but that happens.
There is a level of vulnerability that he has to take. But I think that is a fundamental
all the time, but all of a sudden you're working for a leader that's human and that's who we are.
Let's not keep forgetting that. And you know, they care and then you can care in return. It
sounds simple, but you know, it's hard. Creating and sharing a vision is something that we see
leaders are really conscious of. Gotcha for Life is an incredible vision and you do communicate
that particularly well. Have you gone about getting that message across? Well, there's a
whole lot of different ways you can get your message across now. You know, I'd love to throw
mobile phones, tablets and social media in the bin, but it's here to stay, right? So we need
to use that. So we haven't been as good as I'd like to be with getting our message across on
those platforms, which are very, very well watched by people now, whether it's Facebook or Instagram
or Twitter or LinkedIn or whatever. So that's a constant battle for me. Also, when you've got a
non-for-profit, finding people, good people that you pay much less money to. Yeah. It's
difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult.
Right. So you need to find people that have got a passion, need a bit of purpose and are happy to
cop a little less money because they certainly deserve in the corporate world a lot more in the
open market. So that's one thing that I'm continually working on. But for me, Das, it's,
you know, got my own podcast series, which I'd love you to come on next series, which would be
great called Not an Overnight Success. And it's all about, I suppose, stripping down these people
that well-known people like Hugh Jackman was the first one, Karl Stefanovic, Lisa Wilkinson,
people like that.
Lane Beachley, who we look upon as these successful, magical people. How many rabbit
holes they went down before they found what they were doing or how much imposter syndrome they have
sitting on their shoulder and the little voice that we all have saying, you're not good enough
for this. Don't do it. You're not good enough for this. There's no way you're going to win today.
There's no way you can go out on that stage and do what you're meant to do. All that sort of stuff
is normalizing it. So a podcast series, obviously my radio show, social media and so forth. But the
most important stuff,
is me living in a way that people go, he's actually living the way that he thinks is the
best way. And being a good example for my three kids, like I've got Jack, 22. I've got two daughters,
20. Ella's in London at the moment. There's a constant with her, like she's just like me,
but a smaller version and 20 and female. But we have a break in our radio show, like what's Ella
up to today? Because there's always something that I find on Instagram that I'm shaking my head at.
But the other day, Das, if I can just take a moment,
to explain this to your listeners. She walks out of this concert, there's a bloke called Stormzy or
something like that. He's a rapper, right? And he's a bloke that would come to Australia once
every five years. But in London, where he lives, he's on every couple of nights, right? So she
can't believe she's seeing Stormzy in a small little place. And she's done that. She walks out
and she sees a cop car with the lights going, but no sound, with a bloke with his arm behind his back
on the bonnet of the car. And the cop is talking to him, putting the cuffs on him. She looks around
to the left and there's a lady there,
lying with a lady constable. So most people, what would you do in that situation?
Yeah, you might sort of think, oh, I'll give some space here,
Gus, and let the police do their job, potentially.
Yeah, I think 99.9% would. But however, my daughter walks over to the girl and goes,
are you okay? And the girl straight away goes, oh, you know, I'm not too well. My boyfriend
just hit me. And I run the police on him and we're having this argument and the cops have come and
this is what's happening. So Ella walks over and this bloke's up against,
the bonnet of the car is going, you shouldn't be treating your girlfriend like that. You're a
bloody disgrace and give it to him. And he's going, where are you from? Who are you? And she goes,
I'm from Australia. And that's not how you treat women. He goes, why don't you fuck off back to
Australia? They had this full of discussion. The cop is there going, um, ma'am, ma'am, we don't
need to, we don't need you involved here. There's enough going on. Anyway, she spends three hours
with the girl, right? The bloke goes off. The copper comes back to check on the girl and she's
all okay. And then the copper goes, okay, girls,
if everything's all right, I'll, I'll leave you. And Ella goes, no, you need to drop us home.
And he goes, well, it's not really my job. He goes, the tube's finished. And actually both of
us are quite hungry. So all of a sudden he goes, well, I got no room in my cop car. So they both
get in. So this girl that he hasn't, she's never met before. Who's had this horrific night. Ella
stayed with her. They get in the back, they get like in the, like the jail bit, whatever that bit
is of the car. In the divvy van part. Yeah. And then the, the bit gets open from the driver through
the back of the bit. And she's going, there's a little chippy down here on the corner. So in the
end, the copper, the girl that got attacked and Ella are sitting in a chippy shop at one o'clock
in the morning. And then 20 minutes later, he drops the girl home and then, and Ella's in the
car with, and he goes, I don't want to be in the back bit now. So move your radar and everything
out. So she sits in the front with him and she goes, why don't you whack on the siren? Come on,
I've always wanted to do that. So by then this bloke's laughing along and I'm like, Ella, this
is exactly why you should be over in England.
And having a great time changing the world. I want to buy shares in Ella Wharton. What a
legend. To the cracker. And no surprise. Where does she get that from, mate? That sounds very
close, close to home. What a brilliant story. I want to follow along. What's Ella been up to?
Yeah. We see curiosity, Gus, as a great dimension of leadership. A lot of leaders
have that really in common and they approach their own development through curiosity. Does
that resonate with you? Definitely. For me, is it curiosity?
Is it curiosity or is it, I suppose it is. I mean, the way that I look at it, Das, is I look at
people that I think are authentic, that are good leaders, and I try to sort of find traits from
them. So I suppose I am curious whether or not I can put stuff that they've put in place into my
life. But the one thing I've noticed, and having a friend, having my best friend like Jacka, who
probably we looked upon as, you know, would he be the most famous, famous Australian?
He'd have to be, wouldn't he? Like he's right up there with the Russell Crows and Thor at Hemsworth
and Cate Blanchett.
Cate Blanchett and-
He's in the conversation.
He's in the convo.
Most loved Australian, I reckon it'd almost be Hugh Jackman.
Yeah. Grandma wants to bed him, so does the mother and maybe the daughter as well.
And your son too.
Yeah, that's right. And I see how much he works on himself. So it's taken away a bit of curiosity
because when it's happened so close to you, you actually go, well, I can simply do that.
Like he sent me this book, which I absolutely would say to anyone who's listening should buy,
it's called The Second Mountain. And it's all about how you,
you actually believe that you've done all you can in your life and you've been successful and
success in inverted commas. You tick all the boxes and so forth. And then all of a sudden
at some age you go, oh, this is actually not what I'm meant to be doing. And if you're brave enough
and curious enough, I suppose, to go, actually, I'm going to have a little look. You would,
your football career would be looked upon as success. Going into media after that's probably
a bit of a given. You sort of went, well, that's, I'm going to stick in the game. I'll get paid
Well, I've got a face for TV, voice for radio, and you're all good. You're ticking a few boxes.
All of a sudden doing what you're doing spiritually is a little bit of a second
mountain. All of a sudden you're going outside of where you're being boxed in. No matter how
successful you are, your second mountain is actually you and your wife going,
how much joy you get when you walk into your resort. How, how at peace you feel,
how much your wife and you are absolutely on the same point. Second mountain is key.
And I suppose being curious enough and brave enough to have a crack at that
is certainly where I, I'm proud of myself for not just doing that man up job and going, okay,
I'm going to go back to Brekkie radio, which as you know, can be lucrative. Um, two years later,
I'm like, I just got to get out of here. Yeah. And it's incredible sense of purpose
that you've got, mate. And, and, um, you know, it's a, it's a point where I want to just go
and look at Gotcha for Life. We need to fund people like Gus to make sure that they can do the
work that you're doing. So check out Gotcha for Life. I know you've got some great partners and
some great sponsors, but that is a constant ongoing challenge. I'd love some government
help brother. Yeah. Like a little bit from the New South Wales government. There's a wonderful,
there's a wonderful Bronnie Taylor, who's an MP with passion. And, but I've went down with the
last government and sat with, with, with ScoMo and sat with a few other ministers, a minister
for education, minister for health and so forth, and just got basketballed around and not a brass
razzoo. And I'm like, we fund mental health so much. Why don't we look around at a few more
people you can fund? Like I sat on a meeting once with Beyond Blue and Black Dog Institute and all
these wonderful organisations. And they said, Oh, what would you like to be done? And I said,
well, rather than giving them 20 million, can you give them 19.5 million? Give me half a million
and let me prove to you that I can do some really good work and look at a whole different, um,
suite of products that are available rather than,
than just having the one or two biggies. Because a lot of that is about awareness and
capturing people as they're about to jump off the bridge effectively, whereas what you're doing is
tackling it at the prevention end. Awareness. And in, in person delivering programs,
get behind gotcha for life. Awareness is, if you don't know that there's a problem,
Dars, then I don't know where you've been living. Yeah. It's action. There's what we need. We need
to get into schools, get into sporting clubs, get into corporations and say, there's a new way of
doing things. Here's something to think about. And just getting back to that human thing,
taking away the white coat, taking away the wellness and actually talking about being a
decent human being and being kind. That is the key. And that's the best, I believe, um, lesson
that you can teach your kids moving forward. The World Health Organization tell us that this
is going to be the greatest issue facing mankind in the coming years. We cannot have enough
resources and we've got evidence-based programs like, uh, Gus and Gotcha for Life that simply
have to be funded going forward. Communicating with the clarity is a, is a dimension we
see as a common to all lady. You're an incredible natural communicator, Gus. Have you, have you
thought, have you thought about it? Have you worked on how you communicate your message or?
I try to be, now that I'm doing more keynotes, I'm trying to be as simple as possible. Not a slide,
not an opening, not, not even, you know, if they might put up Gus Warland and Gotcha for Life
as I walk up onto the stage, but there's not another slide, not another quote. It's just me
talking. And it's more of a facilitation rather than a presentation. Cause I don't think
anyone wants to be lectured to, but people want to have some takeaways from anything
that they're being presented. So no one will ever argue if you're a little bit shorter
than longer. That was something that I got taught at a very young age. Don't talk for
45. If you don't need to talk for 45, give everyone a chance to go to the loo, give everyone
a chance to check their phones and their emails or go and get a water or whatever it might
be, but also being authentic and giving them a really simple takeaway. So for the end of
every time I talk.
People will know really clearly that they can do something which won't take them very
long that will allow them to not worry alone and build up the emotional muscle to be mentally
fit. That's it. And at the end of the day, if I'm entertaining and if I'm emotional,
then that'll come naturally. But takeaways are the key. People, like I talk a lot, but
people don't want to hear me just talk. They want something that's clear and manageable.
And that's really what I'm trying to work on. But sometimes Das, I'm sure you're the
I'm doing a big summit chat tomorrow in front of over 10,000 people in Sydney. I hope I
go well tomorrow. It's a big audience and I really want to nail it. Whereas last week
I spoke to 12 blokes who had all lost their kids to suicide. I can guarantee that I'd
saved someone that night and made them feel at least an opportunity to build moving forward
because it's such a hard thing to do. The car park conversations, the most important
I have when someone walks out with me, doesn't want to talk in front of the crowd and I'll
spend 45 minutes by the door of my car trying to help them because they're telling me something
that perhaps they haven't told anyone else.
We're very multicultural in this country. I'll go into different clubs where it's not
Australian as their first language or English as their first language or their parents were
born in another country. Das, you've got no idea how those people feel about what I'm
talking about and how difficult it is for them, even though they see value in it, to
actually change the way that their grandfathers and fathers were raised.
They want to change, but it's just, it's disrespectful not to do what they do traditionally.
So there's so much to unpack there, but I always leave people hopefully feeling like
they've got my attention and I care enough about them to, to have given them the best
knowledge that I can give.
That's, I love the, the idea of that action to take away as, as part of your communication.
I can, I can feel that in what you're saying.
How important is collaboration?
motivation for you, Gus. We see that as being a real common trait now for leaders.
And in mental health, there's way too many egos. There's way too many people out there doing it.
Like we need to all get together and go, Gus, you're really good at that. Beyond Blue, you're
really good at that. Black Dog, when it comes to research, no one's better than you. We should all
be talking together and actually saying, you know what, we're in this area next week. How can we all
help each other make the most insightful impact? We just don't do it. You know, I go into
areas and they go, oh yeah, we had someone from blah, blah, blah. And they dropped a whole lot
of leaflets off at the school. It's like, well, that's just a waste of time. You've got to keep
going back to communities. Otherwise they don't trust you. This letterbox dropping and all,
as we proved in the election, you can't just shoot someone, parachute someone into it because
people go, no, I want authentic someone that lives in this space. I'm not just voting for a big name.
That's what life is about. And every community we go to, we go back every three months and we do
that over years and years and years. All of a sudden,
year three, they start trusting you. Year four, they'll start turning up to one of your events.
Year five, they go, I don't know what we did without you. That's what we've got to keep doing.
Not just letterboxing or saying, oh, here's a website, crack on, there's all that info. No,
that's not what we want. And that's your authentic leadership coming in, Gus, as you said. You can
sell so long as you know that the purpose is there. And I love that about everything that you're
doing. Question we've been asking everyone, Gus, that's come on, who has been the greatest
leader in the world? Who has been the greatest leader in the world?
Who has been the greatest leader in your life?
Oh, wow. Well, it'll be an easy one to say, Jacko, because he has, in the last five years,
given me so much good advice that has kept me on my path because I have had so many emotional
moments where I felt, you know what, I can't do this anymore. But I'd have to say my mum,
and she learned it so much from my granddad on her side, her dad.
Um, that authenticness, that level of care comes from my mum. Um, I spoke about it with Ian Roberts,
who people don't know was a big, tough rugby league player. Um, and he's the first and only
rugby league player to come out as gay. And I had him on my podcast a few weeks ago. And it's the
first time I've spoken about it openly that my father's gay. And I normally speak about it with
people and then I edit it out. But I've never spoken about it openly. And I've never spoken
about it openly. But I rang my dad and I said, I just spoke to Ian Roberts. And I actually spoke
about the fact that you're gay and that your partner Ian and you have been together for 40
years. And I found out as an 18 year old, and I really struggled with it until I spoke to you and
asked you some difficult questions and got some difficult answers. Well, from my point of view,
Dars, having those type of conversations where you are completely vulnerable is where I grow the
most, where I feel the most awkwardness, when I feel the most out of control, when I feel the
most out of control, is when I grow out of my comfort zone. And my grandfather and mother,
because they were so close, they taught me that. Wear your heart on your sleeve, your friends will
come. And if people are baggy or whatever, well, it saves you the drama of getting to know them,
then giving them the flick. You know what I mean? That's always been their process.
And it has hurt me a lot. Telling girlfriends I love them after two and a half hours after
when we've been sitting in a movie and we haven't even actually properly chatted, but I just feel so
in love and connected, you know, like, believe me, it hasn't been all,
fantastic. But gee, I've got a great bunch of mates who totally know who I am and there's no
BS amongst us. And I think they would tell you that our friendship group is better because of
that. And that all comes from my granddad and my mum. Great, great leadership and, and encourage
you to go and listen to Gus. I mean, they're brilliant conversations, starting with Hugh
Jackman and Karl Stefanovic and Lisa Wilkinson and Ian Roberts as well will be something that
you'll learn an enormous amount from, from Gus. In the spirit of collaboration,
Gus, we are passionate about the idea of leaders collaborating extensively. If there was one
person in any part of your life, Gus, that you could collaborate with, is there any name that
springs to mind? Oh, wow. You know what, you know, who was that person? And I've had a chance to do
it, Das, was Mark Burris, because I am all about passion, but not so flash on the finance. So I
just grabbed him one day and spoke to him and he goes, this is what you do. This is what you do.
This is what you do. And all of a sudden it was all great. For those who don't know Mark Burris,
Wizard Home Loans was the business that, along with the Packer family to great success and Yellow
Brick Road. Now, yeah. An amazing individual success story. So yeah. And he's got a, he's
got a podcast called The Mentor and he mentors businesses and so forth. So that was great. But
there's actually a bloke called Earl Evans from Shore and Partners Financial Services who support
my body. And he gives $10,000 away to any guest that comes on our podcast, as long as you give it
to the charity of your choice and you can show what that 10 grand will mean. It's a brilliant
I think it's the only podcast in the world. I've searched this. I don't know if I'm right,
but I think we're the only one in the world. So far we're given 300,000 away.
It's an amazing contribution that guest.
And he, I literally was having coffee in Collaroy, which is on the Northern beaches of Sydney.
And he tapped me on the shoulder and he goes, can you give me a call? I'm Earl from Shore and
Partners. I think I can help you. And I turned around and went, yeah, of course. But he kept
walking, right? There was no proper conversation. So then I'm going, is it, was it Earl? Like I'm
trying to write it all down. Cause when you weren't running on for profit, if someone says
they're going to help you, you, you call, you call them as soon as you possibly can.
You gotta regret this Earl. I'll be calling you in 10 minutes time.
Correct. And he's become a really good friend and confidant. And he also has a really good
attitude to life is you're only here once you can't take it with you. So have a goddamn crack
and make sure you're proud of yourself at the end of the day. And so he's been a great person for me
just when I needed someone to let me know that it's okay to not have all the answers. Like I've
got to take some on my own.
Sometimes like I get sad if I feel like I'm not doing as well as I feel I can, but it's just life,
right? I have good days and bad days. And I was down at point Lonsdale this Saturday night and I
was just, I'd had a couple of beers. I wasn't drunk, but I certainly was, I couldn't drive
for that way, but I wasn't drunk. I'm a God daughter's 21st and I'm on the dance floor
and I am the happiest that I've been that I can remember. And I have no idea why.
But I was just in this feeling of like, I'm just in a good place at the moment, you know?
And I just was smiling. And the photograph that was taken of me that I saw the next day,
it's just this unbridled peace. And you would feel that with your meditation and the fact that
you do all the work you do with your resort. It's just finding a bit of peace, knowing that you're
on the right path and it's not always going to be awesome, but you're getting there. That's
probably where I'm at at the moment.
And Mo, what a great,
a note to finish on. I said at the start, it's always inspiring to catch up with you. And I feel
that every time I bump into you, mate, and full of joy for what you do. I love the work that you're
doing. And when you're doing stuff that's changing people's lives, I'm not surprised you're feeling
that sense of joy, mate, because you deserve every bit of it. Gotcha for Life is an incredible
organization that's come straight from Gus's heart. Look it up, find out about it. Try and
find a friend that you can have Gotcha for Life, mate. If you're listening out there,
and you're another Earl that wants to tap Gus on the show, give Gus a call. It will be as good of
money as you could spend on anything. Thanks, mate. I really appreciate it.
Pleasure, mate. And we'll keep working on your hug, eh? We'll have one in a minute. Before we
leave, we're having one, but you've got to- Less stiff.
You're so tall, right? It's hard. So you've got to just sink down a little bit and not so stiff.
Get rid of the stiffness.
Well, being stiff's not always where you need to be, Darce. Good on you, mate.
Okay, then let me teach you your tool, right?
That's it. And then a little- That's it. That's it. A little shimmy. A little shimmy.
Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy, produced by Matt Dwyer,
with audio production by Darcy Thompson. To start your leadership journey, I encourage you
to go to elitacollective.com, take our Empowering Leaders Indicator Tool, and understand the impact
you have on your environment. Join us at Elita to learn, lead, and collaborate.