Geoff Harris Positively Impacting Others

Where does the passion come from to use your own success as a means to support others less

fortunate? And what are the inbuilt qualities that make someone so consistently good at

positively impacting others in their environment? Today, it's Luke Darcy. The idea of self-improvement

and leadership, both on and off the field, has been a lifelong passion of mine. With one of my

oldest friends, we created a leader collective. I've had the privilege of working with thousands

of leaders in education, sport, industry, and the arts that have helped shift to what we see

as the 21st century style of leadership where everyone has a voice. In this podcast, we hear

stories from these iconic leaders. Jeff Harris was a founding partner of Flight Centre in 1982,

investing $3,000 to open the first Flight Centre in Melbourne. Flight Centre, prior to COVID,

was the third largest retailer in Australia behind West Farmers and Woolworths with 22,000 staff and

a turnover of $22 billion.

Including 2,200 company-owned stores in 14 countries. Jeff's business life is full of

numerous success stories, including taking a 25% stake in Boost Juice, supporting Janine Ellis

in growing from a handful of stores to several hundred. Jeff has made an enormous contribution

in the philanthropic world, purchasing a warehouse in Collingwood in 2002 to serve

as headquarters to the legendary Jim Steins' Reach Foundation, leasing it back to Reach for $5 per

year on a 50-year lease. Reach runs courses for the company, and Jeff's business life is full of

over 13,000 at-risk kids a year. Jeff's generosity and business acumen have supported many social

enterprises that have real impact, particularly in the homeless housing and youth at-risk space.

Jeff is the Vice President of the Hawthorne Football Club, serving the maximum nine years

from 2004 to 2013, and arguably the most successful period in the club's history.

Jeff has an Honorary Doctorate of Business from Swinburne University, and in 2019

was awarded an Order of Australia. Jeff Harris, great to see you.

Thank you, Lou.

Appreciate you.

Thanks very much.

Hello, everyone.

Appreciate your time. It's an extraordinary life of success and contribution. When I read that

back to you, Jeff, what are your thoughts? What are your reflections?

Well, I guess it's pretty amazing, because as we were saying before, Luke, I mean, I left school

at year 10, so all of my stuff has been just lessons from the real life, I guess. Nothing

really from university or whatever. It's just real life experiences that I've found what's

worked and what hasn't worked. And I was very fortunate. I had a strong father figure in my life.

And at 14, I was badly bullied at school one year. And if it wasn't for that father figure,

I would have been in all sorts of trouble. But he helped me a lot. And that's one of the

reasons why later on in life, when I'm now 70, I've always had an interest in youth at

risk and young people. And that was a bad case of bullying. So trying to help out where

I can, and kids with real issues these days, it's always really resonated with me. Because

I was lucky enough to have a strong male role model, and boys need that. A lot of young

boys don't.

Was that your own dad, Jeff?

My father.

Yeah. And he stepped in as a 14-year-old and realized that you're in-

He was there for me at the time when I needed someone, yeah.

Yeah. And practically, that just helped you work through. You said you left school in

year 10. What was he like when you decided-

Oh, I left school. I went and worked in an advertising agency, basically sweeping the

floors and what have you as a kid, as a male boy. And then I started at RMIT. I did a marketing

course after hours, basically, but started off as a kid.

You go back to 1982, Jeff, and you've stumped up $3,000.

That's right.

To start this thing called Flight Centre. And I, in the intro, described it's one of

Australia's greatest ever business success stories. When you look back, did you have

any sense that you were creating something that big? And what was the secret to its success?

I was lucky enough, I went overland in 1972 to London. Interestingly, spent $658 for a

seven-month trip hitchhiking from Darwin through India, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, how I survived,

I've got no idea.

Yeah.

Got to London in 1972 and I met two fellows called Bill James and Graham Turner

who are running a company called Top Deck Travel in London.

And we've become really good mates.

And in the early 80s, after working in London for that decade,

we come back to Australia with the idea of selling cheap flights

based on what the Europeans call bucket shops in Europe,

which is essentially selling cheap airfare.

So we kicked off here in Australia.

I lived in Melbourne, Graham in Brisbane, Bill in Sydney,

and basically we kicked off with one store in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane,

about three to four grand for our fit-outs.

And we knew nothing about travel, but we had a good, I guess,

business sense in terms of we needed to maximise sales per square metre.

So we put in a counter in the stores rather than having two desks or three desks.

We had a six-person counter so we could get more sales per square metre.

We had people on incentives, on commission, on profit share,

a whole bunch of things we did which were quite different in the industry.

But anyway, it took off just as jumbo jet travel was starting to take off in Australia as well.

And we were very profitable.

We had everyone in the company on a profit share from day one, staff and managers,

and we were very, very, very transparent in terms of our financials with all our staff

and both the incentive, i.e. profit share on the outcomes of the stores,

which all staff shared in it, and recognition systems with recognition,

which we had both monthly what we call buzz nights, getting new people,

welcoming new people up on stage in front of all the staff.

They'd have to introduce themselves, scull a beer or whatever,

tell their story, so they all felt part of the team.

And then we had an annual awards night as well.

So getting that incentive and recognition system was really important as well from the early days.

And we almost created a sort of a cult-like following internally because we actually won the Employer of the Year three years in a row.

So we had a very, very strong culture and it was a really egalitarian set up as well.

We never had any corner offices or fancy head offices.

We never, ever, in entire groups developed, any of us have a PA.

Because we expected the store managers to run their own business exactly the same way,

that they didn't have PAs or sit out the back in a corner office.

They had to be at the front selling with the team.

So we adopted that sort of egalitarian structure from day one.

And it seems like you still run your commercial world the same way.

You respond to your own emails.

Yeah, I've got a mobile.

That's my PA.

And it's the same for Graeme Turner, still the CEO of Flight.

That's all he has is a mobile.

And he runs the entire global team of 22,000 up to last year with a team of six.

Mobile and that's underneath that.

There's a whole lot of stuff that goes on that enables that.

Yeah, it's extraordinary.

We're digressing because there's so much of interest, Jeff, in talking to you.

You're a founding partner, still the CEO 40 years later.

I mean, that is an extraordinary Australian success story.

What makes him such a great CEO?

He's incredibly resilient.

He doesn't get stressed.

It's very difficult in a business as a startup.

It's very difficult in a startup then to go from small to medium to large.

It's almost an impossible skill to transition those three things.

And he's managed to navigate that.

I left full-time executive role in the early 2000s because I didn't want to be on a plane all the time

and I wanted to do some other things in my life.

But Graeme stayed on.

So it's resilience, it's optimism, it's can-do, and he'll be carried out in a box.

It's his whole life.

And he's absolutely fantastic at it.

We'll talk about.

We'll talk about some of your mantras in life, which I want to get to shortly.

But you mentioned having a father figure that was incredibly important for you,

having experienced some challenges when you were young,

and then you now having an interest in youth at risk.

But there's so many people I've met that have come across and said,

Jeff Harris changed my life.

Jeff Harris was such a great mentor.

Janine Ellis on this podcast, she mentioned you as one of the great mentors in her life.

We share a mutual friend who worked at Flight Centre for many years, Alison Crabb,

who I spoke to.

She talked about you and she said, changed my life, Jeff Harris.

So when I say that back to you, I can see you're almost sitting back in your chair.

I mean, clearly you've had a skill for mentoring people.

Where did that come from?

Look, I think at the end of the day, you've got to communicate very clearly.

I mean, to put it back into perspective, I suppose when I was in the executive chair

at Flight Centre, I used to go out to the store three days a week.

I wasn't in a head office environment.

I was out there.

I'd go to a store.

I wouldn't visit the manager first.

I'd visit the rookie, the newest employee.

If they'd only been there a day, I'd sit them down, say, g'day, how are you going?

What did you do beforehand?

What was the induction program like compared to what you've had previously?

How can we learn?

So it was sort of like I was really sort of transparent in terms of communication.

I was reasonably tough in terms of rights and responsibilities, but I was really generous

in terms of looking out for people and having their back.

So I think those two things are really important.

You can be tough as a leader, but also you've got to be very, very generous and make sure

you've got your back.

You've got to be very, very generous.

You've got to look out for people's back.

If they follow, you're part of the team and they do the right thing, you've got to be

really generous as a leader to make sure those people are looked out for, both professionally,

but more importantly, personally as well.

Yeah.

Alison shared a story with me in preparation for this conversation.

She had a really tough day in the office and you may remember this story and without getting

too personal, there was actually a criminal matter that affected her really personally

that she'd been on the receiving end of some serious injustice.

She's in tears in the office.

She said, you see her?

You put her in a cab home, but she said afterwards, her colleagues told her that you picked up

the phone and started lobbying on her behalf for change and she said never, ever lost on

her how important it was that you had people's back.

Was that just something that came naturally to her?

Yeah.

I mean, you just have to do it.

You're part of the team.

You've got to do whatever it takes in that regard.

Look, you'll learn.

I mean, I made every mistake known to mankind, but at the end of the day, if you look out

for your people and you're in business at the end of the day, you've got to do it.

You've got to make a profit.

The profits will take care of themselves if you look out for the people.

So I think that's really, it's just good business sense, really.

I wanted to move on to just quickly your philanthropic passion and you've done some extraordinary

stuff.

I mean, Flight Centre was an amazing financial and commercial success, but it feels as though

you've approached your philanthropic works in the same way.

I mentioned in the opener, the Reach Foundation, and you're on the board there for seven years

and you bought a building in Collingwood that still serves as its headquarters.

You helped open family.

Another national youth at risk charity, a major sponsor of Street, which is an incredible

social enterprise.

You bought them a headquarters for severely disadvantaged people that enables them aid

to work and a self-funded model in that space.

Where did that passion come from and how do you approach it?

I think the Street model is very interesting for everyone out there listening.

I mean, that's a social enterprise.

Now, in Australia, there's about 60,000 charities and there are about 30,000 social enterprises.

Now, a social enterprise.

A social enterprise is essentially a charity with a charitable license, so a government

license to operate as a charity, but it uses private enterprise to produce its own income.

So, rather than a business producing profits for dividends for shareholders, it produces

revenue to keep that charitable enterprise going and then plough those funds back into

growing more courses or whatever it is that they're trying to do.

So, in the Street model, it was looking after kids with severe, like at the absolute bottom

end of the pile.

No one wanted to look.

No one wanted to look out for either suicidal, drug-dependent, in jail, in a court system,

whatever.

And it was set up by a lady called Rebecca Scott.

She's an ex-scientist, a woman in her late 30s, early 40s, just a wonderful person.

And I met her about eight years ago and I was an inhabitant as a business person about

how you can use business to solve social problems.

So, Street had just started up and are in a very infancy.

And again, I thought, well, gee, why?

Can't we apply the REACH model in terms of buying a head office building?

So, what we did, we looked around in the Richmond area and we actually found a building actually

just nearby in Collingwood in Cromwell Street.

It was an operating brothel, Luke, and listeners, I'm sorry about that, close your ears, but

it was a brothel.

And indeed, the brothel had just been closed the day before by the police.

There'd been some sort of drug raid there.

And so, it still had pink satin sheets and high heels and dildos, God knows whatever

else.

There was a machine on the wall with chains.

So, it was actually, it was exactly the same as that.

It was up for sale.

So, I bought it, it was about $2.2 million.

And then we got a social loan from Westpac, a low interest loan of a million dollars.

And then we got donors of another million dollars and we've refurbished it.

And again, I put Street on a 50-year lease for $5 a year.

I also did a deal with the state government on land tax.

So, we're forgiving the rent to Street to do their social good.

Yeah.

We did a deal with the state government to forgive land tax.

So, we didn't have to pay the 100-odd grand land tax.

And we did a deal with council to forgive rates.

So, essentially, Street gets a free building.

All they've got to do is pay that small interest component of that $1 million, a free building

for $5 a year.

We own, our Harris family, own an inner city building for the next 50 years.

Yeah.

Achieving social outcomes.

Yeah.

But it's going to grow in capital gains.

So, it's an asset, but achieving social outcomes.

So, we structured, I think, really well.

And also, Street being a social enterprise, they had a coffee roasting division, a catering

division, a bakery, and a large cafe there, and had four other cafes as well.

Pre-COVID, January 2020, they were at 82% self-funding from all their businesses, all

the profits of the businesses, to get about 800 kids a year through their courses.

And they were budgeting to be fully self-funded, 100% self-funded, no philanthropic, no government

money, no donations by 2022.

By now, to have all those kids through, not $1 of government money, how good's that?

That's the power of social enterprise.

And there are about now 30,000 in Australia.

So, they are the disruptors of traditional charities, whereby traditional charities have

to raise about 90, 95% of their funds every year from government, philanthropy, donors.

So, it's a model that's not sustainable, really.

So, that's why I love the social enterprise sector.

And I can hear the passion, you know, come out in your voice.

You sit up in your chair, Geoff, when you talk about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I interviewed a guy recently on this podcast called Dan Flynn.

He started Thank You Water.

And effectively, what he was trying to do was to use products that everyone buys, the

big multinationals have access to, and he got shelf space.

The community said, I'll buy Thank You Water because it's a social enterprise and the proceeds

go back to his passion is about extreme poverty and trying to end extreme poverty.

Massive goal.

He was also saying that sometimes we hold...

The social enterprise is up to a level that we don't hold the commercial work.

If Flight Centre want to invest in a new technology and spend $50 million, it doesn't work.

Well, that's an investment.

Yep.

But you don't get afforded that luxury in the social enterprise.

Is that a problem with it or not?

It is a difficult space.

In fact, I had a book published about three years ago called Dollars and Cents, and it

was a book on social enterprise and 40 case studies around Australia.

And the reason being is that governments don't treat social enterprise seriously.

The Minister of Small Business federally doesn't have social enterprise under their wing, whereas

in the UK, the Minister...

Or a small business in a federal government there has a social enterprise section where

there's legal tax rules and standardisations and systems.

There's nothing...

We didn't even know how to approach that.

The tax office didn't know how to approach social enterprise in terms of taxing any profits

because it was registered as a charity.

And yet it was a business.

So there was all these things that we need more work in the social enterprise sector.

The other great thing about the street model was that we got dozens of kids a year jobs

once they'd come through the courses.

So unemployable through the street program.

Then into full award-based jobs.

And one of the businesses we're involved in is Fonda, which we're a 25% shareholder with

eight Fonda restaurants around Melbourne and two in Sydney.

We gave kids job scholarships at Fonda.

There's been about 15 through the last few years who went through the program and then

they were fully employed in no store.

So that's when you're making a real difference.

Find Mexican food, Fonda, of attended regularly.

And you branch off into so many areas, Geoff.

I mean, it's fascinating to see.

But I can see the logic that you apply to all the things you do, whether it's charity,

whether it's being on the board of the Hawthorne Football Club.

Now, I'm going to branch off.

I normally, I love, and I could talk to you for hours in a whole range of different directions.

But you sent me an email in preparation for this, Geoff, that I've become a bit obsessed about.

And then this was the headline.

Just sent me one line.

You said some very basic leadership points, Geoff Harris, you may be interested in.

And there's 20 points, Geoff, that to be honest with you, I would describe more as a masterclass

in leadership.

And it's so on point with what this is.

This podcast is about empowering leadership, a new range of leadership.

It feels to me as though you're very much ahead of your time.

Now, I asked you beforehand, I said, would you be comfortable in sharing those 20 points?

You said, look, it's open source.

I've never really published them.

But if you do want to look them up, we will, Geoff's been kind enough, we'll share them

in the show notes.

I'll put them out on Instagram, LukeDarcy14.

I'll put them out on LinkedIn as well if Geoff's kind enough to do it.

But Geoff, rather than sort of going through the top 20, but I want to touch on as many

as I can.

Have you got a top five?

Have you got a top five of your points on leadership that resonate the most?

Well, I'll have to start off with the mighty hawks, Luke.

How do you feel about that?

Are you going to let me talk about that?

I'll give you a couple of minutes.

You're on a short leash on that one.

Okay.

Because the first one was really, I guess, for any organisation, being it a school, a

business, a radio station, whatever it may be, it's setting a clear and compelling vision.

And the great lesson or the most successful, succinct vision I'd ever been a part of was

in the Hawthorne Football Club in 2002.

In 2004, when Clarko, Alistair Clarkson was appointed as coach, Hawthorne Football Club

was second last.

It was losing about a million dollars a year.

One o'clock forward, we won a premiership in 2008.

But in 2008, the board then, which I was vice president of, set a vision and it was called

5-2-50.

So we hadn't won a premiership in 19 years.

We'd had 12,000 members in 2004.

And we'd had 12,000 members in 2004.

So the five years was, in five years, 5-2-50, in five years, we wanted to win two premierships

and have 50,000 members.

5-2-50.

People laughed at you at the time.

They laughed at us.

Laughed you out of town.

They laughed us out of town.

You've got to be joking.

In five years, two premierships, 50,000 members.

We set that as our vision.

That was it.

5-2-50.

Everyone knew it.

Every single staff member can understand it.

And we asked anyone, they knew exactly what it was.

We won the premiership that year.

We got to 52,000 members.

At the next year.

And we played off Sydney in 2012 at the end of the fifth year.

We were in front 10 minutes ago.

We lost by eight points.

And I'm still grimacing about that.

But if we had it, and we're at 62,000 members there.

So in five years, we won one premiership, nearly won two.

We achieved our 50,000 members.

That was a very simple vision.

It was compelling.

It energized people.

And it raised the bar of success.

So I guess my challenge to anyone in any organization,

what is your organization's vision?

Does it matter?

Everyone know it.

Has it been set, not by the board in some remote location

and put on a plaque and a foil and no one has any ownership of it,

but does all the teams had a skeletal draft of that vision?

Have they workshopped it?

Have they got ownership of it?

And then it comes back and two, up to the board or management team,

back to the teams within the organization.

And then you set on it and then you'll haul up your flag and go for it.

And then you give all the various divisions, like a membership division,

we doubled their resources, increased their advertising and marketing.

We gave the footy department more resources, et cetera.

But we knew what we wanted to achieve.

And if we had have actually beaten Sydney,

that 5-2-50 would have been perfectly implemented.

But it still is the most successful and simple vision

of any organization I've ever been a part of.

And what people who maybe don't follow Australian rules football as closely

as others may not understand is that after that particular vision,

Hawthorne won three premierships in a row and continued on into arguably

the most successful period.

And Australian rules football history.

And I don't want to jump ahead of your points,

but if I could jump in for a moment because you also appointed Alistair Clarkson

as part of that, who, for those listening,

has now etched his name as one of the great modern coaches.

But it was controversial at the time.

A lot of people thought he wasn't a fit.

And some of your proud Hawthorne past players weren't happy about it.

I mean, was that a hard decision?

Well, I was on the interview committee at that time,

and we'd interviewed Rocket Ede, Gary Ayres,

Dermot Brayton, who were unbelievable footballers.

Terry Wallace might have been.

Terry Wallace was another one.

Terry Wallace.

Sorry, not Dermot Brayton.

Terry Wallace.

Dermot was on the committee, I think.

Terry Wallace.

All unbelievable football people, very good senior coaches.

And he then walked a bloke from Adelaide just about eating a football with passion,

banged the door down with enthusiasm, was left field in his thinking.

But more importantly, the board took the strategic decision to go young on our list.

We were going to go.

Very deep in the draft with young talent, young men.

So by definition, we need an educator.

We need someone who could cut through and teach young men about football and about life.

Clarko had an MBA and a teaching degree.

So then it become very clear, as well as him being passionate and a young man who was hungry,

he was the obvious person for the job.

So we put him on a short term contract, two years if he can't coach, we can get in a Lee Matthews

or a Terry Wallace or whatever, but he ended up being one of the great coaches of all time.

So, but that education factor was fundamental in getting that young

group, uh, off to the races that were, and the other thing we did also, I'd been to Kokoda

twice before and I insisted to the board, then one thing you can do to create a greater

spirit of core was to send the entire list off to Kokoda, uh, a 44.

And we did that.

And that was fundamental also as part of trying to help create a culture and a, and a rich

sort of togetherness amongst the group.

I mean, one of my great life regrets that Jeff, I have to say, uh, I was passionate

about the history of Kokoda, had tried to organize a trip.

I was playing through that same era, uh, or a little bit before it.

And the club decided it was too risky that the potential to get, you know, malaria and

they knocked it on the head.

And I watched the Hawthorne players come back and I know that you were the champion of that

with this great life experience.

So I always looked on that with jealousy.

Oh, just to jump in because 0.7 on your list, speaking of Alistair Clarkson, and I encourage

anyone, if you're listening from a small business background, if you're listening from whatever

education or leadership space you're in, look up Jeff's 20 points, 0.7, because I referenced

this in relation to Clarko.

You say in the list, you said.

Yeah.

You sent me staff are your greatest asset.

Bullshit.

You say only the right staff, A graders and the right roles are your asset.

Poor performing staff or staff in the wrong roles are your biggest liability.

Aces in places, higher on positive attitude, cultural fit, teamwork, determination to succeed

fire on negativity, poor performance, poor values, poor attitude.

As you said to me before we started recording, it's not rocket science, but when you put

it down and you're so clear on it, you can create extraordinary results.

Again, going back to Hawthorne footy club example, uh, 2000, 2000, 2000, 2000, 2000,

2004, second last, uh, broke losing a million bucks a year.

We, we had 15 people in the football department.

Uh, we got rid of 14 out of the 15.

Uh, we had, we, we placed the CEO, the president, uh, half the board, uh, football manager,

fitness manager with the best people you can find in the world.

Simply just the best of the best.

Uh, so we had A graders in all the key slots, uh, and we climbed the mountains that were

a wonder flag in four years.

So, so if you're going to have a strong vision, you need A graders to implement that vision.

Yeah.

It's a logical next step.

Yeah.

And if you've got B graders or someone's a bit negative or doesn't want to be there

as a leader in your organization, you have to make the change.

It'll be expensive with, uh, working conditions in Australia, having to pay people out, but

it's much cheaper than those people staying on and affecting the morale of the entire

organization.

If they're not working quite often, they'll be happy for it because they'll know that

they're not the right fit anyway.

And practically Jeff, have you done that in your businesses in flight center and all the

other enterprises?

There's, there's many that you've been involved in.

If you see someone's not the right fit, you're quite quick to say.

We're not for you and you're not for us.

Well, certainly, probably not enough in the early days because we're learning, but become

obvious later on.

I think aces in places or A graders in your key driving slots of the organization, it

is a non-negotiable.

So you have your strong vision and then you might have, say the leader of the organization

might have, say six key reports and they are all absolutely A graders in those various

disciplines.

Brilliant.

And then, and then you, you, you, you delegate to the nth degree to those people and let

them get on with it.

You don't micro.

Manage.

Yeah.

Empower them.

Empower them.

To, to, to, to run their role.

So I've taken you off the top five of your top 20.

What, what's next on your list?

Okay.

So, uh, I would go then that, um, number, where are we?

Number, number three really is the, is the, the delegation to those A graders.

And I would, I would, I would equate that with being, if you're, if you're working in

a business and then you're appointed as leader, you, let's say you're the leading, one of

the leading players in the business or leading part, one of the leading players in a football

team.

I'd equate it to being like a, a, the lead violinist in an orchestra.

You're one of the lead, leading people.

Then you're going to go from lead violinist in the orchestra or the team to the conductor.

From the lead violinist to the conductor.

So you go from the senior person in the organization to the CEO or the conductor.

You, then you need those aces in places that the conductor can wave the baton to.

And then you've got to give those aces in place, the resources to succeed.

They have a formal plan.

You have a quarterly, monthly or quarterly one-on-one.

And then hold them to account based on the outcomes you want for those people.

So I think that's probably a pretty good analogy for that one.

And how practically in the spaces when you say, you know, holding people to account and

quarterly and annual, did you have really set, you know, objections and key results?

Was there, was there a system that you used in that?

Yeah, I think you've got to have for each of those key people, then you've got to have

sort of measurable outcomes that are not subjective bullshit, but objective targets that they

know clearly they have to go.

So if it's a football coach, a lineman.

It's getting blokes from X speed to Y speed or X tackling numbers to Y tackling numbers

within that quarter.

Say, whatever the conductor or the leader wants to have improved within that particular

discipline, that person working that discipline as team leader has to know clearly what their

tasks are.

If they don't, well, they're wandering around like a headless chook.

And then it's up to the leader to hold them accountable, give them the resources that

they've got the tools to do that.

And then have the, okay, by next quarter, Luke, I want to see you have.

This, this, and this in place.

Is that okay?

And then you've got a specific plan.

I'll look at the plan to make sure.

Yes, I think that's realistic.

You're on the right track.

And then we'll sit down.

You might be in front of two or way behind on one when we have that quarterly meeting.

And then we can reassess that.

I'm not going to whack you over the head and say, okay, well, we're behind on that.

What do you think we can do to catch up on this particular one?

Do we need the extra resources from head office or whatever it may be?

And you're crystal clear, you know, the communication element I'll come back to, but I've got plenty

I want to jump into, but what's next on your list?

Well, look.

I guess fourth was, and again, going back to Clarko, clearly communicating rights and

responsibilities to your team.

So discipline, standards, performance, values, punctuality, and teamwork, people crave for

it.

And if people are not prepared to follow, then it's FIFO or it's death by a thousand

cuts.

FIFO meaning first in, first out.

Fit in or.

Fit in or.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or F off.

Or F off.

So, and again, I'll use Alistair Clarko as an example.

He got all the players down to Kerford Road Beach in his first few weeks on a, running

the sand and swimming.

And I think the first morning was six o'clock.

The 44 blokes were down there and one bloke was late.

Blokes, I told you about six o'clock.

They did the workout, coming back at five o'clock the next morning.

I think legend has it that might've been Shane Crawford who was late.

Could have been.

I'm not saying anything.

The next morning they get there, they do the workout, two blokes turn up late.

Sorry, boys.

We're back at four o'clock tomorrow morning.

And some blokes are scratching.

He said,

this has got nothing to do with footy.

This is bullshit.

And he gets them all back to the room.

He said,

I know it's got nothing to do with football, but it's about punctuality.

That was one of my rights and responsibilities, boys.

You have rights, but you've got responsibilities.

If I call you a team meeting at nine, you will be there at nine o'clock.

Do you understand me?

Or if you've got to go to rehab, you will be there at rehab.

Unlike last year when some blokes weren't turning up to rehab.

So the leader set the rights and responsibilities very clear.

It's like a parent-child relationship.

The kids need to have boundaries.

And what I learned when I wasn't tough enough early on,

and my leader,

if you don't do that, it's death by a thousand cuts.

And if the leader doesn't then follow through on that,

and those standards start to slip,

people start to say,

what the hell is the boss doing?

So you have to make sure if you're going to set those things,

they're reasonable, everyone understands them,

and everyone has buy-in,

and they are implemented and followed through.

Because otherwise,

if you start having leadings and people turn up late,

and you let them turn up late like Brown's cows,

you're whistling Dixie.

Yeah, death by a thousand cuts.

That was your number one point around clearly communicate your rights

and responsibilities.

But when you say that,

that unravels if there's not clarity in terms of the boundaries,

people are confused in organisations.

Individual and team boundaries, what we stand for as a group.

And some people say, look, that's not fair.

Well, obviously it's not for you, this organisation.

I wish you all the best.

We'll support you to get jobs elsewhere.

But these are our standards.

And as I said, it's like a parent-child relationship.

We have standards for our kids.

So why wouldn't we have them for our people?

And what I've found is that most people want to work within standards

and disciplines.

And they're confused.

They're comfortable working in a structured environment

whilst having input and flexibility around the edges.

But people like having that sense of belonging within some sort of structure.

It can't be totally laissez-faire.

People know the boundary.

You feel comfortable and you can thrive within that environment.

So I've got my list on your list.

So I'll let you keep going.

Well, I guess the fifth one I had underneath those other points was

you've got your A graders in place.

You've delegated well.

You've got your rights and responsibilities.

And you've set your strategy, and then I've got to spend equal time on the strategy,

50% strategy, but 50% execution of practical and communicate endlessly to all staff.

I remember an advertising campaign one of the big four banks had about five years ago.

It was on TV and radio.

And customers were complaining when I walked into the bank branches,

the tellers hadn't heard of it.

A classic example of the strategy might have been brilliant, rocket science.

But guess what?

They didn't tell their people.

The execution was appalling.

And master's hardware stores come to Australia about five years ago to take on Bunnings.

They adopted the American model to Australia.

The strategy was fine.

Let's take on Bunnings and grow a hardware business in Australia.

But the execution, none of them bothered to come out here and test the market in one store under their nose,

say in Melbourne, maybe a couple of stores, fine-tune it from the American model,

the Australian model, test various things, make sure they've got Aussies loving it

and they've got the right product mix for Australia.

Didn't do that.

They rolled out 70 stores from day one, and they were losing.

I think $75,000 a day, a day per store after five years, because their execution was appalling.

So equal time on strategy for those leadership group.

And then, so 50% strategy, 50% execution, and talking through the execution,

making it really clear and debating it amongst your team members,

the practical side of the execution so it can be executed well.

And when you were up and running in, say, back to the flight centre days,

and you say 50% strategy and the creative time,

have discipline around that 50%.

Did you have, literally, allocate time in the week to say,

hey, this is about being creative and innovative?

We broke up the entire 22,000 staff into teams of six and seven,

and tribes of 150, based on anthropological studies of, well, I'll talk about this.

In 2000, sorry, in 1989, we set up a store in Elizabeth Street.

It had 100 square metres.

So I had six staff the first year and made $200,000 profit.

Phones ringing, people lined up.

I said, all I've got to do is double the number of staff.

I'll make $400,000 profit.

This is easy.

We went to about 12 staff and made $200,000 profit again the next year.

Still really busy.

We then went to 19 staff.

The profits went down to $120,000.

And at the same time, one of the boys read a book on anthropology.

And this is when we'd gone from a start-up to about 2,000 staff.

At the same time, we were getting calls from our staff.

We can't do that.

We can't contact you like the old days.

You're always on a plane.

You're not there like the good old days.

We can speak to you directly.

So what, and this book on anthropology talked about American Indians, tribal chiefs of tribes of about 150 people.

It talked about Aboriginals hunting and gathering in pods of about, sustainable pods of about 30.

And it talked about mum, dad, and three or four kids was about the right family model.

So we broke the company up into family, villages, and tribes.

And so with 1,000 staff.

With 1,000 staff, you'd have about seven tribes of 150, each tribe, which is about eight stores, each tribe would have their own general manager, accounting, marketing person, their own flag, their own name, and they'd compete against other tribes.

So in Victoria, there might have been, say, 10 tribes competing against each other.

Each tribe would employ new people.

They'd get them up at the monthly buzz nights, which were for recognition.

And they'd welcome new people to the tribe.

They'd tell their story.

And in that 150, you'd know everyone.

If it's 1,000, you'd listen.

You'd lose track.

You don't know who's in your community.

So breaking up business into smaller teams also, we found, was fundamentally important.

And we found conclusively that any more than seven people in a team had started to break down economically on outputs.

So whether it's a board team, a shop team, an accounting team, a radio team, that six or seven should be about the maximum.

So even in the end, pre-COVID, we know two years have devastated the travel industry.

And Flight Centre hasn't been immune to that.

But 22,000 staff, you're still able to just replicate that seven-team model.

And it's served you well, even at that scale.

Well, yeah.

Well, having said that, Luke, the COVID thing has decimated travel and the tourism industry and hospitality, as you're very well aware.

Very much so.

But Flight Centre has managed to hang on and indeed is now very, very busy.

So – and they're trying now to get more people back into the industry.

Yeah.

That's the biggest I've tried to find, people.

So I'm going to jump around on some of – and as I said earlier, you know, please, you know, if you're listening and Jeff's been kind enough to share these 20 dot points on leadership.

And, you know, I look at it as a real masterclass of someone who's spent their life in leadership.

So we'll give you the links of how to look that up.

As I said before, I'll put it out on Instagram, LukeDarcy14.

We'll put it in the show notes.

Right down the bottom, point 20, and it leads – have fun.

Be proud of your organisation, your town, your country.

Enjoy the journey and the things that success brings.

You've been a good celebrator along the way.

Tell me, you've always – I remember the Flight Centre parties were legendary.

I think I attended a Flight Centre ball at one stage.

I got a rogue invitation, which was good fun.

So you see that as being pretty crucial.

Well, look, if you can't have fun in business, what's the point in doing it?

And all of us, especially these days with COVID and bloody, you know, wars in the Ukraine or what have you, there's been so much sort of nasty stuff around.

I think we have to sort of get back to the basics.

And, you know –

Enjoy each other.

Enjoy – make sure families have fun.

The basics in life, whether it's a little kid or whatever, we just enjoy those simple moments because life's too short not to.

And certainly, we put a lot of emphasis in all the various businesses.

We had award nights, both six-monthly and annually.

At Flight Centre, prior to COVID, we had 3,000 people at our global awards.

So it was – two years ago, it was at Berlin.

3,000 people from all over the world, we flew them to Berlin for five days.

So can you imagine the cost of that?

But the cost of not doing it was substantial because that was part of the glue of the culture that people were striving to achieve their outcome because they'd get to Berlin if they achieved their various successes in their businesses.

So I think that's a really important thing, getting incentives in organizations, clear incentives for people, measurable on outcomes, and then having recognition systems commensurate as well.

So you recognize – some people love being recognized.

They don't care about the money or the incentives.

Some people don't care about the recognition.

They just want the money or the incentives.

So if you can have very simple incentives in the organization and a very clear and fun recognition system, recognizing people on a great job in front of all the team, those two things are really important to think about.

And you think that covers, as you said, people who are remunerated in different ways, aren't they?

As you said, people value different things.

You found that system worked well where recognition and financial reward probably covered most people as incentives?

Well, no question.

We run a very, very strong program.

We have a profit share system at Flight Tennis where everyone was on a profit share in the teams.

And I'll tell you a great story about when we listed the company in 95.

So here we were a startup as a startup, and I thought, God, this – and we opened the doors, and that was my last dream to have been involved in my own business.

And that's another thing for all of you out there.

If you want to get involved in the business and you're thinking about it, don't be an old man or an old lady in your rocking chair at 80 saying, I wish I had.

I was a gunner.

I might have.

If you want to have a crack, you put the capital aside, you take the risk, and you have a crack.

And if it fails, you've learned.

You've won because you've learned.

You dust yourself off, and then you go and do something else or have another crack down the track.

But don't not have a crack because that is a failure.

Where were we, Luke?

Sorry.

That's a great point.

Well, I think that's another one of your points, and I love it because so many people – I'm passionate about the small business space, Jeff, as well.

And you take on some risks.

You take a few deep gulps, and you're inevitably going to fail at some stage, or it's not always successful.

You mentioned the hospitality industry.

We've been in for a long period of time.

You have – but the joy of being able to create something yourself.

So I love hearing people.

I love hearing people like you say, have a go, you know.

And clearly, you would have had – in the numerous things you've done, some haven't.

Is there an example of one that you could say, I back this idea in just to humanize your story, Jeff, because it is full of success?

Was there one that –

We've only got an hour, haven't we?

Of course.

Look, people are going to make mistakes, but I guess what I'm saying, if you're looking at doing something for the first time, I'll take a step back to the flights in a day.

I've met some guys in London who I knew were very good.

They'd run top-debt travel.

We were talking about a concept here in Australia.

I knew – I was committed.

I was committed.

I knew that it'd work.

I'd put some money aside.

If I'd lost that, it wasn't the end of the earth, what did I have to lose?

I was 28, energy, passion.

It didn't matter.

Would it have been a learning curve?

So I think if you're providing – you're not going to sell the farm, as it were.

You've still got some assets elsewhere.

You put that money aside, you devote two or three years of your life, and you have a go because you'll regret it if you don't.

Life's too short not to.

So I think that's really important.

Everyone out there – and Australians are as good as anyone in the world, I can assure every one of you out there.

We said – I remember going to London, setting up shops, Canada, South Africa.

We can eat – America.

I mean, jeez, we're so far in front of the X.

Aussies are as can-do and as good as anyone in the world, so do not discount what you can achieve.

Point eight on your list is Mandela's leadership legacy.

Take on your base when needed, i.e. Invictus.

Leaders' courage to change.

That's what I'm talking about.

Conventional wisdom.

What are you referencing there?

Invictus is one of the great movies.

Nelson Mandela – and we had 150 stores in South Africa, so I know that story over there pretty well.

We set up before Mandela was – whilst he was still in jail.

It was either going to be a civil war when he got out or tourism was going to grow dramatically because they were going to release all the embargoes due to apartheid.

We invested prior to Mandela was released, and it ended up being a fantastic, successful business, flights into South Africa.

But what I'm saying there is that Mandela and his presidency –

Black South Africans

Their passion was soccer

That was their sport

The white man's sport was rugby

That was the Africana sport

The people that had terribly abused Black South Africans

And given them no chance in the social systems

Whatever due to apartheid or separate development

Mandela said to his Black African base

I want us to go to the Rugby World Cup

And I want to hand out the cup

And I want to back our rugby team

And his base said to him

You cannot do that, Madiba, leader

We are soccer people

And we don't have nothing to do with those white guys who have trashed us

And Mandela said

We have to reconcile this country and bring everyone together

So the leader took on his base

And then he converted his base

And sold them the vision of

We are all going to be

For South Africa to work

The whole of South Africa had to be together

And he was there

He handed over the cup to Francois Pinoir

The Afrikaans

White man who was Afrikaners

Were the people who were doing all sorts of things

Unfortunately to Black Africans

South Africans

He handed over the cup to him

And that was a fundamental moment

And white South Africans were cheering that Black president

Because he did that

So the moral of the story is

It's up for you as a leader

If you know something is wrong

Or your industry or your government

Or your business is going in the wrong direction

You have to have the courage to change that conventional wisdom

And you have to have the courage to change that conventional wisdom

And go left when everyone else is going right

And prosecute your case

So that was Mandela's leadership legacy to me

Yeah I'm not sure why my mind

As you're saying that

How can you compare to Nelson Mandela

And what he did in that moment

As you said to have the vision to understand

That that was going to unite the country

And don't often reference politics

But what John Howard did

Taking on his base

When we had the tragedy down in Port Arthur

And his people didn't want

A ban on

Guns and automatic weapons

And to me that was an incredible bit of leadership as well

Politically to say

Hey this is the right thing to do

And you think of what happens in other parts of the world around that

Sometimes you've got to educate your own base around

What is right and what is wrong

It's called leadership

And it's very difficult to do

But I think you have to have

Once you've got a particular mindset

That you fervently believe in

That's the leader's role

It's not about being popular

Sometimes it's about taking people where they should be

Not where they want to be

And that's the leader's job

To navigate their people under them

Be it a politician or a leader

And explain the reasons why we're going where you should be

Not where you want to be now

Because this would be better for us as an organisation or as a country

Takes great courage Jeff

Part of what we've been doing in the work

At a leader I was talking to you about

Before we started today

Is seeing these traits that we see great leaders

Like you ahead of your time

But modern leaders are really

Identifying with similar traits

And that's why I was

So fascinated in your 20 point document

And I keep referencing

And there's going to be a lot of crossover here

But I'm going to ask you a series of questions

We've been asking all the leaders on the podcast

And so please expand

And I'm sure it overlays with some of your

We see leaders really

Are clear on their own sense of self-leadership

What does that term mean to you?

Self-leadership

I feel almost embarrassed

I don't feel like a leader at all

I guess it's how others perceive you really

I really don't know how to answer that Luke

Because as I said

Other school leaders don't know how to answer that

So I'm not formally educated in leadership

I think it's more just being

Totally honest and transparent with people

Doing the right things

What comes around goes around

And people will see through you

If you're not genuine

And you're not communicating directly

And honestly with them

And as I said

And have their backs as well

That's the basics really

It's hard for me to explain

Jeff you know I find that fascinating

And it has been

A common response

With people like you

Who clearly have had

An extraordinary life of leadership

The humility to say

I don't see myself as a leader

But as I asked that question

I look at some of your

Points on your document

Point nine

Leaders must radiate

Optimism

Enthusiasm

A can-do spirit

Point ten

Leaders must raise the bar

Lift expectations

Set a clear and compelling vision

So many of the things

That you clearly have done

Throughout your life

Can I mention that point

In a clear life example

Again this was Jeff Kennedy

Who's president

And Jeff you know

He's got people

People love him

People hate him

But he was a crash through leader

As a politician

And I remember in 2008

When he was president

Of Hawthorne Football Club

I was next to him

As vice president

On a board meeting

And we'd won the first

Nine games that year

The Hawks

Great Luke

It was fantastic

And we had the youngest

Listen to com

And conventional wisdom was

Geelong was going to win

The grand final

Because they'd won

The previous year

In 2007 if you remember

And they had the oldest list

Most experienced

Most successful team

Around but

All the media

Was saying Geelong's going to win

So we'd won the first nine

And Clarko and Chris Fagan

The footy manager at the time

Come in for a board meeting

To report

On one of our monthly board meetings

And Jeff was there

At the end of the table

And they're doing the report

On nine zip

And all of a sudden

Jeff

He's fidgeting with his papers

And he bangs the table

And he says

Okay I've heard it all

What do we need

To win the premiership

And we all sort of

Looked at each other

And he said

What resources

Do you need extra

This is our year

To win the flag

We might never get

That opportunity

But we've got to win

How are we going to do it boys

What extra resources

Do you need

So he said

Do you need any other physios

Whatever you need

We will supply it

But this is our year

To win the premiership

I expect us to win it

So

And it was sort of

Not exactly that language

But

The moral of the story was

The leader raised the bar

The leader raised the bar

And us

Me and Mort

Were looking around

Well shit

We're not competing

For the premiership

Now we are expected

To win the premiership

So what that did was

The leadership group

In the football department

The players

Took it apart

Upon themselves

To get in

Stuart Chu

Who'd been with

Port Adelaide

In the grand final

And said

We're expected to win

The premiership

We think we can win

The premiership now

We're not just competing

Because the favourites

Are going to win

What do we need

To win the premiership

And so all that sort of

Stuff started to happen

And we won the flag

So the moral of the story

Is the leader

Has to set the tone

In terms of where

The organisation's going

And that goes

It was fantastic

It was really a wonderful

Bit of leadership

How did the coach respond

Across the board table

To that

Because that's a delicate

Relationship at times

Well it was

But I think Clarke

Was a fantastic coach

And leader in many ways

But sometimes

They're that

Imbued in the fog of battle

It's hard to look

Above the parapet

So I think

Someone clearly

Setting the expectations

And the fact that

Yes you are good enough

Coach yes

We have the player list

And these boys

These young boys

Might never get

An opportunity

You know

We have to seize the moment

That was a mantra

Seize the moment

So I think that was

Yeah that was wonderful

And one of the great

Grand final wins

That was fantastic

We see leaders

Are really conscious

About how they positively

Impact others

And I mentioned this before

The amount of people

That I've heard

That have spoken about you

In a life changing way

I mean

Have you consciously

Thought about

How you positively

Impact others

Not really

I mean I've just been

Pretty lucky

I suppose

I guess the only

The only other message

I can put there

Is that if doors open

And you can see

A positive there

And that door being open

You've got to have a crack

And walk through the door

Yeah

Because

, you know

Life's too short not to

So don't

Don't discount your ability

Whatever station you are in life

Doesn't matter if you haven't

Got a degree

Or you're not

On the right side of town

With your black, white

Pink

With pink spots

Male or female

It doesn't matter

If the door opens

For an opportunity

Have a crack

Because you just don't know

Where that can lead

And if that

If I look back on anything

That was

When I decided

To have a crack

With Graham and Bill

And Flight Centre

We walked through the door

We risked everything

And that was

You know prior to

In the first Gulf War

In 1990

To put this into

Perspective

And taking a risk

That was when

George Bush the Elder

Was bombing

Saddam Hussein

In Iraq

Because Iraq

Had invaded Kuwait

And there was

A live war

On CNN

For the first time

Where bombs were dropping

We had about

500 shops

At that stage

A privately owned company

Prior to listing

And it was like

A run on the banks

People were queued up

To get refunds

So all they're doing

Is getting refunds

We lost about

300 grand

In that November

Another 300 grand

In December

We had

200,000 of cash

Left in the bank

We had a million dollars

Overdraft

Which was maxed out

Our dogs, cats, wives

Houses mortgaged

So everything

Mortgaged

A million dollars

Overdraft

And I sat down

At the kitchen table

When that war was on

All of our shop leases

We had 56 million dollars

Of personal guarantees

On shop leases

To shopping centres

You know five years

$50,000 a year

250,000

Buy all those shops

56 million bucks

Of personal guarantees

A million dollars

Overdraft

200 grand cash

Or about a week's

Cash to go

So we had

That's stress

But

We

We

We

We

Oh and another

Moral of the story

Is so the shit

Excuse me

The proverbial

Had hit the fan

And Thomas Cook

In Europe

Had sacked

About 20%

Of their workforce

Because this war

Was going on

Staff were coming

Out and saying

Is our job safe

Yes your job's safe

All the other companies

Are cutting staff

So we said

Your jobs are safe

We then had

Town hall meetings

In various states

And we got all our staff

And said

We need your ideas

And how we're going

To trade out of this

We will guarantee

Your jobs are safe

No one's going to get the boot

We're all in this together

We either all sink together

Or we all prosper together

But everyone's job is safe

We invited the teams

To go back

Discuss ideas

And how they can trade better

Make more

And try to bridge that loss

So we can last longer

Because we were very transparent

We said

Here's the state of our books

Here's how much money

We've got left

We've got everything

Mortgaged

We cannot do anymore

As directors

We've put everything

On the hock

We need to somehow

Get out of this

They come back

To us with a bunch of ideas

And we had

Like a South Melbourne store

Come to me

And said

Can we operate

They had six staff

Nine to five

Monday to Friday

And nine to twelve

On Saturdays

Can we work shifts

Can someone start at twelve

Finish at eight

Can someone work on weekends

Wednesday, Thursday

And Friday

Because they had kids

Blah, blah, blah

That opened the store

Another thirty-two hours

For that week

Because they were working

On shifts

So they went from

Forty-two hours

To another thirty-odd hours

Opening

Yeah

It's on their input

Their idea

If we'd have told them

We would have opened

Another thirty-odd hours a week

They would have laughed

Yeah

So we had all these ideas

Of their ownership

On how they could

How we could survive

And we put them all

In a pot

And gave everyone

Those ideas

Within

About a week

The war was finished

And we had

Incredible

March, April, May

June record profits

But what we had

Is everyone knew

We had their back

And that's when

We won the employer

Of the year

For the next three years

We'd created a cult

We didn't realise it

Because those people knew

That whatever happened

We were there for them

But we got their input

So when the proverbial

Hits the fan

In your organisation

You go to your people

And say

How can we dig ourselves

Out of the hole

And you're absolutely up front

You're totally transparent

With whatever's going on

They knew the state of play

They just

They knew we'd given

Everything to it

But we needed them

For their IP

Their knowledge

Their feedback

The brilliance of that

Is Stan

I love

One of your points

Is about total transparency

On everything

And you've lived your life

That way

But I often

You know

In the commercial places

That I've been exposed to

You often see

These great ideas

But people are never asked

They're never

It's only a small group

In effectively

The leadership group

That tend to hold

All the ideas

So it seems

A great lesson

You know

To give everyone

A voice in their environment

For a start

It empowers people

To want to make a deal

As you said

Suddenly staff are saying

How can we work more for you

Without more

Exactly

When I'm talking about

That vision thing before

I mean we provided

Everyone with a skeletal

Draft of what we thought

It could be

And then we got amongst

All the teams debating

And then they added

Meat to the bone

Of the skeletals

So they had ownership

Yeah

But we led them to water

With a skeleton draft

And then they

They cobbled it together

All those good ideas

Come together

So everyone

Owned that vision

It's the same thing

What happened

At flight centers

And so I guess

If everything's not doing well

It's having your entire team

Together trying to come up

With ideas

And how you can

Once you're totally

Transparent with what's happening

Then they own the problem

And then they can come up

Help you

The leader

Come up with better ideas

Well that was the next dimension

The leadership wanted to ask you

About how do you go about

Creating and sharing your vision

I don't think you can get

A better story than that

Of what you just told

You told the Hawthorne story

Beautifully about

Really crystal clear vision

I mean

Is that applied in

In everything

In your personal life

In your charity space

Is it

We always tried to

Going back to my flights

In the days we had

Personal goal setting

In the early days

For all of us

Had an A4 sheet

With our business goals

And then we developed that

For personal goals

For everyone as well

When we did one-on-ones

And then that

More

We morphed into

Two things we did

Which were really successful

We set up a thing called

Money-wise and health-wise

So the money-wise thing was

In your personal goals

We want to see

How you're going financially

So you know

Luke you're investing in shares

Or you've got any real estate

Whatever

So the money-wise thing

We hired some

Financial planners

That the company did

And their job was

To do a one-on-one

Every six months

With every staff member

So it's fine to earn that

X dollars a year

How are you investing

Saving

What does that share

Make you

What does that real estate mean

What's a

All those things

Coaching them on those things

And then we

And then that developed

From money-wise

We set up health-wise

So every head office

We put in a gym

We did a one-on-one

Every six months

For their health planning

With blood pressure

Doctors checks

If they needed it

All those sorts of things

So those two things

And then

And one of our

Our very loud

Female store managers

In Brisbane

Then set up another division

Called Naughty Wives

So all the stories

From conferences

Were published

We sort of turned a blind eye

And looked the other way

From that

But the health-wise

And money-wise things

Were personal coaching

On people's personal lives

And that had a big impact

And they were in-house programs

They were in-house programs

Totally fun

And what have you

And even that

And interestingly

That health-wise

Developed into a business

Active travel

Which does

Organises marathons

Because there's so many flights

And the people

Are then booking

Into half marathons

And marathons

We organise

We set up a separate company

To book marathons

At Berlin

Blah blah blah blah

And London etc

I love it

Incredible

We see leaders

Who are really curious

And through that lens

That's how they approach

Their learning and development

And point 18

On your list

Probably sums this up

Jeff

I'll ask you

Leaders are readers

They seek out new ideas

By learning off

Other successful people

Find a mentor

How do you think

About curiosity

In that space

Well that's

It's fantastic

I mean

I've tried to read

I read that

Barack Obama

Had his

New resolution

Two years ago

Reading a book

Every month

So I've adopted that

So I lock myself away

Every second or third night

In the study

And I read for about

Half an hour

And the current book

I'm reading

Is on Bitcoin

And I've got no idea

What it's about Luke

Absolutely no idea

And I'm halfway through it

And I still haven't

Understood a thing

But I'm trying to

Get my head around

Blockchain

And all that sort of stuff

And how Bitcoin's

Disrupting traditional currencies

But mainly

The books

I can't read

Anything

But factual books

I can't read anything

But factual books

I can't read anything

But factual books

I can't read anything

But factual books

So I try to read a book

On success stories

Business

Personal

Sports people

How they've been successful

And you'll always pick up

One or two points

So as I've said

They're leaders

Or readers

If you want to learn

You have to read

Real life stories

About other people

And what they've done

In their lives

You'll always pick up ideas

And I think

As a leader

Do not discount

The power of mentoring

That mentor

Mentee relationship

Is fundamentally

You can change

A young life

Around

By simply

Taking the time

To sit down

And talk to people

And giving them

The benefit of your experience

That's what life's all about

It's not that parent-child thing

But formally doing that

Under your watch

That you have that

And it might be

In a community organisation

You're with

Or within your own business

Or organisation

That you have

You try to adopt

Some form of

Formal mentoring process

Within the company

I love that you're reading

About cryptocurrency

With all the success

That you've had

That your mind

Is still curious

On what is a

Disruptive space

At the moment

And halfway through the book

And I've got

Absolutely

Is there

Can I ask

Is there a book

As a

Obviously a passionate reader

Is there a book

That stands out

That you could recommend

To people

One I've just

When I've just finished

Was on Winston Churchill

And Clement Attlee

In the Second World War

And if you witness

Our national cabinet

We had with COVID

Winston Churchill

Set up a team of six

He as

Prime Minister

Chairing the cabinet

His vice chair

Was Clement Attlee

Who was the leader

Of the Labour Party

Clement Attlee

Ran the domestic side

Of England

While England was at war

For six years

And Churchill ran the war

They had three

Conservative leaders

And three Labour leaders

As other delegates

Other board members

And they ran

They were the war cabinet

So if you think

Through what Morrison did

For the national cabinet

What we should have done there

Is what Churchill did

Is invited

The Greens

Albanese from Labour

In the war cabinet

Our war was on COVID

And then so

The entire political system

Would have

Out of control

Had ownership

Of the drugs

What they brought in

What timing

And then you've got

The enemy inside the tent

Peeing out

Rather than outside

Peeing in

And there's total ownership

From the leadership group

Within Australia

And no one can blame each other

And I think that was

A strategic blunder

By not doing that

Based on their book

I almost feel like

This might sound like

A ridiculous thing to say

But politically

Every fourth year

You should have

A combined year

Where you bring all that

You know

Warlike cabinet together

And then

Maybe set aside

Certain things

Like infrastructure

Or education

Or part

Where you

Where you can

Agree on things

Rather than the

Point scoring

I look

People from overseas

That rang me

Friends of mine

It's an island

That you live on down there

You mean to tell me

You can't get into

The west of Australia

And that policy

Is different

When you think about it

Logically

It's insane

It was allowing the states

To go their own way

And if I had my own way

I'd abolish all the states

And councils in Australia

And I'd create

The Germanic system

With about

30 provincial governments

Have a strong

Federal government

And Victoria

Would be say

Greater Ballarat

Greater Bendigo

Greater Shepparton

Greater Western

Greater Melbourne

With a provincial governor

Governor S

And those

Those provincial governments

Would handle the old

Council functions

Filling in potholes

And old state

Government functions

So you get rid of

One level of government

Overnight

And that's day one

If I was a dictator

And day two

I would ban one level

Of bureaucracy

And health and education

At the moment

It's jointly held

By the feds

And the states

I would push

All those levels

Those two

Those levels

Of education

Back to the provinces

Or I'd give it

To the

Only

Or to the feds

Only

So both health

And education

And take that

One level out

So that's

One level

Of bureaucracy

Entire bureaucracy

And health

One level

Entire bureaucracy

And education

And one level

Of government

And then I'd marry

Those provincial governments

With the federal government

Five year terms

And voting electronically

Might have to get you

And your mate

Geoff Kennett back

And have a go at that

You'd have to change

The constitution

But we are woefully

Over governed

And I think

The states proved that

Where they're all going

Off in their own way

And we didn't have

The federal government

That could manage it

From one best way

Across the whole country

Fascinating idea

That the other dimension

That I wanted to move to

Is leaders communicating

With clarity

And all your points

In your document

You sent me

Point one

And you mentioned

Clearly communicate

Rights and responsibilities

You mentioned that

Point two

Total information sharing

Communicate everything

Don't bullshit

Tell it how it is

I mean clearly

They're at the top of your list

How you communicate with people

And again that Gulf War thing

That total information

We had a whiteboard up

There was no screens

And we just wrote in

Our financials

And they just knew

We only had a week or so

To go with cash

So that was very

And you know

If there's problems

In the organisation

You've got to be transparent

And if the issue is you

As leader

Okay I've stuffed up guys

I made a mistake

I'm human

Show your vulnerability

As a leader

People

We're all human beings

We're going to stuff up

That's life

Was there some nervousness

In doing that

When you had that many staff

And you say

Hey we've got your

Back

But literally

We're going to run out of cash

We had no choice

We were going to run out

Of cash anyway

So we didn't want to tell them

To put people off

Would have been disastrous

So it was either

All sink together

Or prosper together

And we absolutely prospered

Because they knew

We had their back

We see modern leaders

Jeff

Really value collaboration

Perhaps more than ever

I mean how do you think

About collaboration

How important

Has that been for you

Look obviously

You know

Involving your people

In the decision making

You can't have the lunatics

Running here silent

I think

But you know

You can involve people

And give them

Your strategic thinking

And then invite people

To add value to that

And certainly your team

Of six under you

They should be fundamental

In the direction

Of how the organisation's going

And the other thing

I'd put in

I think it's really important

Within that is

Point 15

I think is banning

Externalisation

So it's easy for people

In society

To blame

Whatever it is

Governments

Leaders

The fact that

It was on drugs

At the end of the day

It's your responsibility

You know

What are you going to do

About it

And how are you going to change

So if it's to be

It's up to me

So I think that

If it's coaches

Whinging about umpires

Or if it's leaders

Whinging about the weather

Or whatever it is

If it's to be

It's up to me

As leader

You have to ban

Externalisation yourself

And look inwards

On how you're going to

Solve those issues

And if you're a footy coach

And you lose a game

You'll learn more from that

Than winning a game

So it's not

Blaming the umpires

Or blaming the weather

If you've lost the game

It's how do we learn

To kick straighter

How do we do

More tackles

More pressure acts

Whatever

Then we might get to a victory

So I think that's

A really important point

To put in there

And also really

Inculcating an innovation

Culture in a business as well

So you're constantly

Looking at ways

To turn left

When everyone else

Is going right

And be prepared to

Bring those new ideas

Into the organisation

And trial them

You might trial them

Within a small area

Of the business

So it's not at the hub

But it's at the end of the spoke

And trial that

Radical idea

And it might be

The new Frappuccino

Like Starbucks

Trial in one of their stores

And took off globally

So you have to have

An innovation culture

That's deeply embedded

In the business

That you're prepared

To try new things

All the time

And invite your people

To come up with those good ideas

That we will take them on board

So if someone comes up

With that idea

Look okay I'm not sure

But let's give it a crack

If you think it's good enough

It's incredible

Shared wisdom Jeff

Right across your life

I've been asking

All the leaders

These final two questions

And take some time

As long as you possibly like

But the first one is

Who's been the greatest leader

In your life?

I used to drive to work

Listening to Winston Churchill tapes

Because at the height of the war

No one gave Germany any chance

It was

I'll fight them on that beach

I'll fight them on the hills

And I used to get the air

In the back of my neck

Standing up

It's an interesting question

I think Barack Obama

For his oratory

Was quite inspiring

I think

Probably

Kennedy in Victoria

Whether you love him

Or hate him

Was a crash

Or crash through merchant

And I think

Got a lot of stuff done

Which was incredibly controversial

But had the

The proverbials

At least to do it

What he said he did

So he implemented

Exactly what he said

He was going to do

And I think

Obviously Mandela

For his

Forgiveness

In terms of

What

The Afrikaan race

Did to black people

For generations

And his forgiveness

And inclusiveness

Was an amazing message

For that country

And we were over there

Two years after he was released

I remember going over there

And the most

Died in the war

White Afrikaan people

Revered Mandela

Even though

Two years before

They would have seen

They were thinking that

He was going to be

A communist leader

And he was going to be

Probably another civil war type thing

So his inclusiveness

And ability to

To forgive

Was I think

An amazing story really

Incredible stories of leadership

All of the ones that you referenced

If you could collaborate

With anyone in the world

On anything Jeff

It's a diverse group of people

It's a diverse life

That you've lived

Is there a person

Anyone that springs to mind

Richard Attenborough

I think he's absolutely inspirational

In terms of what he's done

For our global environment

And he's leading us

To thinking about

Climate change

And how we should be doing

So much more

Globally

And

In terms of investing

In green technology

In terms of setting a vision

For green technology

And

I mean for instance

Down the east coast of Australia

There's a bunch of coal mines

Which are

Which have been

Controversial in Australia

People saying

They're going to lose their jobs

Well okay

Why couldn't we

As the leader of Australia

Saying okay coal miners

We will transition you

From coal to

Whatever it may be

Wind, solar

Maybe even nuclear

Portable nuclear power

So whatever it may be

So there's no stuff going up

There's no crap going up

In the atmosphere

We will transition you

We'll pay your wages

We will train you

And we will transition you

In that five or ten year journey

To that new green technology

Your jobs are going to be

As a safe

We will wean coal

Wean you off coal

And we'll invest in these

And invite global capital

To invest in these technologies

But you are

We are

We've got your back

You're not going to lose your job

So we needed a transition plan

Not just

That's this sort of constant

Well we're going to back the coal miners

Because you're going to lose your job

Well why should they lose their job?

We'll back them into new industries

And let's have a ten year plan

JFK said

We're going to send a moon

Send a man to the moon in ten years

Not because it's easy

Because it's hard

We should be doing the same thing

We've got heaps of sunshine

We should be the world's biggest exporter

Of sun

Sun power

To Southeast Asia

Invite capital from all over the world

Via tax breaks

To invest in solar energy

And be the leaders in the world

In solar technology

And solar exporting

And migrate all those coal miners to that

But we need a ten year vision for it

We saw

You know

Mike Cannon-Brooks from Atlassian

Try and buy

AGL

AGL

Which is

You know

To fast track

What you're talking about

In that space

Yep

Yeah

It's a brilliant thought

And every time

I hear you go off on a tangent

It seems to be

You know

With some deep thinking

And as I said at the start

Jeff

A supplementary question

Before I wrap up

Because as someone who's

Been one of the most successful people

In the global travel business

Where's your favourite place to travel

When Jeff Harris goes for a break

Where do you go?

Well I've got a place at Noosa

I love it there

But in terms of overseas

I love London as a town

Because it's so cosmopolitan

There's so many great bars

And restaurants

My favourite travel memory

Was when I went over

When I was in

Europe

Working on the buses

With Bill and Graham

My co-founders at Flytus

That ran Top Deck Travel

I was working for an opposition company

In the 18 to 30s

Bus space

Like Contiki tours

Those sort of things

Not with Contiki

But another company

And I did three Russia scandies

And I remember being in Russia

In 1974, 75, 76

On three trips

In the depths of communism

And then I went back home one summer

Via New York to Australia

Seeing Moscow in the depths of communism

And a lot of people

And I remember

A month later

Seeing New York

The depths of capitalism

And comparing it to

That was my favourite memory

Probably politically

And in terms of countries

When I went overland to London

Being in Afghanistan in 1972

It was the most feudal

Backward country you'd ever see

But fascinating

Because it was so backward

Probably for me though

And in terms of

Just a leisure place

San Sebastian in Spain

I think it's an amazing place

To go to

The Basque territory

Of northern Spain

I love that

Geoff, it's been

An incredible opportunity

To catch up

I'm really grateful

That you were prepared

To sit down with me

And to sit down

With me

And also

Thank you for being

Generous enough

As I said

I see it as a masterclass

Of your life

The 20 points

We will get them out

And share them

If you're comfortable

With that Geoff

I'm sure people listening

Will be inspired

By your thoughts

And how clear

They're not rockets

They just might be

One or two points

That might help people

People can take on board

Your humility comes through

In everything you do

So we'll put them

In the show notes

I'll put them out

On Instagram as well

At Luke Darcy 14

Geoff Harris

It's been a great honour

To spend some time with you

Thanks so much

Thanks Luke

Appreciate it

Go Hawks

Empowering Leaders

Was presented by me

Luke Darcy

Produced by Matt Dwyer

With audio production

By Darcy Thompson

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