Farmer Dave Graham Saving Young Lives

I speak a lot on this podcast about being a father of four

and the great privilege of being able to provide for them

and the fact that they're healthy and thriving is a real gift in life.

And so when you realise that that is not the case for many kids,

in fact, a lot of kids face serious abuse,

grow up in homes where they're not safe

and on the receiving end of enormous amounts of domestic violence and challenge.

So to meet Dave Graham, farmer Dave Graham,

growing up on a sheep farm,

to understand the work that he's doing,

saving kids' lives every single day,

it is truly one of the most inspiring leadership stories

that I've ever come across.

The work he does with Rough Track is a great inspiration.

I hope you take the time to listen to Dave's story.

It is incredibly inspiring.

Dave Graham is the youngest of 11 kids

growing up on a beef, cattle, cropping and sheep station

at the Army.

At the age of 19,

he walked the international catwalks of Europe

and graced billboards around the world.

His diverse life includes coming out as an openly gay man

on reality TV in Australia,

shifting the language around homophobia

and also using the same platform to raise awareness

for the plight of drought-stricken farmers.

He's an internationally recognised dog training expert

and runs a range of education and entertainment platforms

to build relationships between the city and country.

His current role as co-founder and manager

of the at-risk youth charity,

Rough Track,

is an inspiring leadership story.

Rough Track runs programs for 12 to 17-year-olds

who have often been severely neglected and abused,

many of which have become completely disengaged

with society through no fault of their own.

Dave, I really appreciate you joining me today

on the Empowering Leaders podcast.

Yeah, thanks, Dars.

Thanks for having me, mate.

It's an incredible story and incredible work that you do.

I'm really taken by it.

The challenge of taking on teenagers

who have been disengaged,

about as complex a problem, I think,

Dave, as society throws our way.

Where did you find the courage and the leadership

from within yourself to tackle this work?

Yeah, I suppose it just comes back to that simple thing of,

you know, you point at a problem and the solutions,

those three fingers pointing back at you.

And that's simply where this whole thing came about for me,

was the Tracker Network is based on the Backtrack Way,

which was started by Bernie Shakespeare,

an Australian of the Year local hero,

a couple of years ago.

And he started it back in 2006.

And it reduced youth crime in New England area by 30%.

And it really did capture those kids that had not just fallen

through the cracks, but had fallen out of the radar

of the system and, you know, gave them the opportunities

to chase their hopes and dreams.

So the evidence was there that it worked.

And the local Hawkesbury region really wanted

to implement something very similar in this region

in northwest Sydney.

And that's what we've done.

They reached out to me as a dog trainer to be able

to help get them started.

And then, look, not everyone wants to work with violent

and vulnerable teenagers.

And so the six-week pilot was four years ago,

and I'm still here.

So when you say, you know, how did I get into this position,

it chose me, and I'm still here.

And we're thankful that's the case, Dave.

It's, as I said, an incredible contribution you're making.

Can you explain to our listeners how the Rough Track program works

and maybe some of the challenges?

And the youth and the kids that you're working with have dealt

with and are dealing with?

Crikey.

There's a lot right there, mate.

So some of the challenges, look, this region has been hit incredibly

hard by the natural phenomenons of drought initially and then

the incredible bushfires that we had all in our region just here

and then flood after flood after flood and, of course,

as everyone did, COVID.

But, you know, we've got the blight of social,

economic pressures in our region, you know,

just around here where we have the farm where a lot of the kids come

from is council housing area, but then we've got 300 square metre

blocks selling for a million dollars.

And, you know, we're an hour and a half from Sydney itself.

So we have this massive dichotomy going on in our own region,

and it's gone from a very rural region to now just another suburban

sprawl of Sydney.

So there's a lot of those simple social issues going on.

There's the environment.

There's environmental issues.

And then there's the blight of drugs and domestic violence that is just

ever-present in our young people's lives.

And so the challenges are to do anything and everything possible

to meet each kid where they're at and to get them where they want to go.

And sometimes working out where they want to go is the greatest challenge.

You know, what do you want to do?

And sometimes the simple argument that I've got to have with them is

to stay alive, to stay breathing.

And it's a daily thing that I come across is kids not wanting to be alive.

And when you've got a kid that's 12 or 13, having that conversation with you

first thing in the morning when they arrive, every day is a challenge.

It's heartbreaking, Dave, when you articulate it like that.

Young people who simply don't want to exist.

You know, they've had so much trauma and no path or really no one

to buy into their story.

Can you just go through what you do?

What do you do?

Rough track and how the program works?

So it's using the idea of space.

So giving space when it's needed.

So we have pressure on and we have pressure off and we allow a young person

to navigate that space, whatever it's required.

So we have the space of the farm.

So we're on five acres here.

We also have another five acres next door, which we utilise thanks

to the property owners there.

They're giving us all of that space.

So we fill it with animals.

We fill it with animals, which give a lot to our kids.

So they teach them compassion.

They teach them kindness, but they teach them responsibility

and respect because, you know, the first thing the kids do as soon

as they arrive is put on their boots and put away their bags and put

away their phones and they get their hands dirty, picking up the poop

of the animals, making sure that welfare of every animal across the

place is taken care of and connecting with the animals.

And sometimes that's just having a cuddle.

That's just having that connection, which teenagers,

often just don't have in general, let alone the kids that we're getting

to work with.

So it's connecting with those animals, then it's coming back as a group

and we do what's called circle work.

So we sit in a yarning circle and share where we're at

and we use numbers.

So a number from one to ten, ten being the best you've ever felt,

one being the worst you've ever felt.

And so we can at least get an insight into where they're at.

So if they're feeling right at the top of the schedule, well,

then we know, yep, we can give them a great activity to really

charge on forward and off they go throughout the day.

If they're down and about a one or a two, well,

then I know that I've got to spend some time with them and maybe,

again, do some horticulture, get our hands dirty,

get some earth around us or just simply sit with them under a tree

and feel some presence so that they understand that there's someone

there to listen to them.

That's literally the first half an hour of the day and it really

unfolds from there.

And it could be anything from any of the fabrication workshops

to the production.

Today they were building plasma cut and metal fabricated fire pits.

They were knocking a heap of those out.

They might be reconditioning fence posts or horseshoes to be able

to make different art projects or just simple round yards that we use

in our sheep herding activities.

We do lots of woodwork.

So they were doing woodwork today.

They were doing art, heaps of art around here that they painted today.

So a lot of activities.

It really is whatever.

That kid needs at that moment in time where you go off,

we have that activity, then we connect back together and we give

an opportunity for them, again, to talk about what they did

because giving them the confidence to talk in a group is essential

if you want to get a job in life.

You've got to be able to talk to strangers.

You've got to be able to talk with proficiency and competency.

So there's a lot of talking that goes on but then there's a heck

of a lot of activity.

So it's activating.

It's leading from the front.

All of our leaders lead from the front and if a young fellow

or a young lady is in a group, they're going to be able to talk

about what they're doing.

If a young lass is not coping, well, then we're there to pick

up the activity to keep it going forward until we get to do that check-in

and then we can talk about how difficult it was,

what challenges we faced and also what it is that as a group we can help

move that activity forward going back to that activity.

They cook their own tucker.

They make sure that all their PPE is correct.

So all the stuff to make them job ready that probably you and I take

for granted that our parents taught us or the fact that we've been

around people.

In the workforce are giving us all of those skills.

You know, we're giving them everything that they need to be able to get

to that workforce stage.

And I mentioned in the preamble that you're an internationally renowned

dog trainer and the use of dogs in the Rough Track program is at the core

of the program as well.

Is that for every child?

Does every child get to select a dog?

Is that part of it?

Yeah, that's what does make us unique in the tracker network,

which is that every kid does get a dog.

I mean,

every dog's here.

So every kid gets to bond with their own dog.

And it's just crazy cool how each different child,

depending on their own personality type and their excitement levels,

which dog they end up choosing.

And of course,

the dog's got to choose them as well.

They've got to have a coming together of the relationship because kids need

to learn how to manage a relationship.

Often they don't have good role models of what a healthy relationship looks

like.

So having that relationship with their dog is teaching them how to have a

healthy,

healthy relationship moving forward to break any domestic violence cycles

that they may be young have dealt with themselves.

I mean,

let's let's face it.

I mean,

in,

in our,

our,

our young people,

some of them are domestic violence perpetrators themselves,

and some of them have received that in their own,

you know,

young relationships,

let alone their family relationships.

So that dog is is teaching them how to be kind,

how to be compassionate,

but also how to communicate effectively without language.

You know,

you can't just say to a dog,

Hey,

do this,

you know,

you've got to use body language.

And,

um,

and oftentimes when a teenager,

we've all seen it,

we've been at ourselves,

uh,

they don't give much,

they grunt.

Um,

and their body language is usually,

I hate the world when you see them first thing in the morning,

cause they don't want to be out of bed.

They were playing games all night on their computer.

So,

you know,

it's learning how to activate a dog and how to activate a relationship by

being involved by being present,

but also making sure that the mood,

um,

isn't just done by your words,

but also done by your behavior.

So that behavioral exchange coming from the dogs is absolutely key to giving

these kids that strong ability to create healthy relationships.

And I don't think a non dog lovers quite appreciate what you're saying.

A dentist,

this blue staffie in our house is,

but I say this seriously is by far and away,

the most important,

uh,

contributor to the house.

And I've got four kids,

three teenagers,

one turns 12 next week.

They pour the teenagers,

but they pour their,

their love into dentists.

And that's how they express themselves because he doesn't yell back.

He doesn't tell them to make their bed.

And he's got this incredible intuition around,

you know,

who's having an off day.

And,

and,

and I love that you're extrapolating that out to,

to kids.

And I suppose the brilliant part too,

is that at the end of it,

I understand that you make them pass that back on at the end.

Don't you?

So it's,

it's not a dog for life.

It's,

this is a learning experience.

Can you explain why that's important as well?

Yeah.

So,

the idea of being able to give,

give an opportunity to the idea is that you can love something and love it,

holus bolus and it's,

it's your everything and it's your whole world,

but then you've got to let go.

And oftentimes men aren't taught to,

to let things go.

And that's why we have these terrible atrocities that happen in our society of

crimes against,

and mostly,

mostly women,

but,

but also men,

because we don't know how to let go.

And that's,

how to let go of something that we love because not all relationships are forever.

In fact,

most relationships we have for short periods of time,

but that can be very intense.

So to have that skill of being able to form this amazing relationship,

to work together,

to camp in your swag together as the kids do with their dogs,

and,

and really build this beautiful relationship that takes them to,

you know,

audiences of tens of thousands,

which the kids perform with their dogs together.

Right around Australia.

But then to be able to let it go is such a unique part of the program,

which,

which gives us the knowledge that kid is ready for the world and is ready as a fully fledged adult that knows that I can love,

but I can let go.

And I don't need to hold on or force a relationship to continue when it's past its use by date.

So when a kid comes to me and says,

how you look,

you know,

I'm ready to move on.

All I'm waiting for that young person to say,

is that,

and I really want my dog to stay in the program for another young person.

And that's when I know that kid has broken the cycle of domestic violence and broken the cycles of dependency and,

and is,

is no longer anything but a self-empowered,

resilient,

young person ready to take on the world with their boots on and their,

their brain set for the abilities to really give back to society as a independent human.

It's incredibly profound.

The way that you say that,

uh,

Dave,

and I will give some details and talk in a moment,

how you can support Dave and rough track.

And the idea of having a forever farm is a,

is a,

is a great cause at the moment.

So we'll come back to that day and make sure that people listening can,

I'm sure are going to,

you can't help,

but be moved by the work that Dave's done.

I was looking at some stats that,

uh,

apply to this one in four young people,

age 16 to 24 live with a mental health disorder.

Now,

one in five young people are not enrolled in any form of formal education.

There's 30,000 plus young people,

uh,

uh,

uh,

uh,

uh,

uh,

uh,

plus young people under the age of 25 who,

uh,

sleep without shelter every night in this country.

One in 10,

age 14 to 17 use illicit substances on a weekly basis.

It is a significant problem.

We don't see it when we live privileged lives like,

uh,

like I,

and others,

uh,

are allowed to,

um,

uh,

are we making a dent in it,

Dave?

Do you feel like that the pathways like you're providing are making a significant dent?

Yeah.

Uh,

we,

um,

we're around,

uh,

a fire not long ago.

And,

uh,

there was about 20,

20 kids around the fire,

the campfire.

And,

and often that's when some amazing insights into a young person's,

uh,

psychology and trauma really get vented out into the world,

um,

because of the,

the safety of the night.

But,

um,

there's something about being around a fire that allows,

uh,

young people to,

to really open up and,

and to be super vulnerable and to heal a lot of that,

um,

that past hurt that,

uh,

that was there.

And,

uh,

uh,

Crikey.

Um,

you'll have to ask the question again.

Sorry.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's,

um,

it's,

okay.

I'll keep going.

I'll keep going.

I'm just going to break,

but,

um,

nah,

it's emotional,

mate.

I can,

I can only imagine what,

what you've been through and what you've seen sitting around the campfire.

And you're,

you're about to share about,

you know,

the difference it's making.

And yeah,

it clearly gets you straight in the heart,

mate.

And I,

you know,

I only met you a few days ago,

on the set of an,

and I,

I,

you know,

and known for not having,

uh,

you know,

but my wife,

where it says boarding school took all the emotions straight out of you,

but I,

your story captivated me straight away.

And I was like,

man,

I'd love to catch up again and hopefully share it.

So,

I mean,

are you comfortable sharing that story?

Yeah,

no,

no.

Look,

um,

so 20 young people around the campfire and,

um,

uh,

there wasn't a single one that didn't say that if it wasn't,

uh,

for rough track,

um,

they wouldn't be here.

And,

you know,

you're making a difference when 100% of these,

their teenage,

their kids,

when they say that they wouldn't be,

they're having a conversation with you.

Uh,

if it wasn't for the program that you're,

you're providing,

it wasn't for the,

the compassion and,

uh,

the sense of belonging and the ability to master,

um,

the skills that they,

they,

uh,

they have,

um,

it,

uh,

it makes you get up the next day and,

uh,

and work harder so you can help more kids achieve that same outcome.

And that is to have air in their lungs and,

uh,

to experience this incredible thing that,

um,

so many of us just take for granted,

but,

um,

but yeah,

I,

yeah,

I can't stress enough when you have,

uh,

one kid say that to you,

let alone around one campfire,

every single kid,

um,

say that same thing.

Um,

it's,

it's powerful stuff and it's a,

it's a driving force that makes you in,

in a very difficult,

um,

job,

uh,

keep going every single day.

It's the ultimate story of,

uh,

incredible leadership,

Dave.

And I,

I commend you in every sense.

It's,

it's such a,

as you said,

if you,

if you could in your lifetime impact when save one life,

that may be the greatest thing you ever do to sit around a campfire and have every single teenager expressed that that's what you've done is,

is,

is so profound.

So again,

we'll talk about how to get to rough track and support a permanent farm to save lives.

I mean,

you couldn't think of a better cause to contribute to.

So look up rough track,

are you double left track?

Um,

we'll come back to that again and just make sure that if you are interested in that conversation,

um,

it's hard not to be,

um,

what a great thing to build a farm permanently in an area that's changing people's lives.

Your leadership is,

is something that,

and you're wrong money.

I'm assuming a lot of these kids haven't had adults take an interest in their life at times.

So how hard is it for you?

I mean,

you asked them to give the dogs back to pass it on.

How hard is it for you sometimes to send them back into their environment?

Oh,

look,

um,

when we first started,

there was a lot of camping here at the farm.

Um,

we were really fortunate.

Uh,

uh,

BCF,

uh,

found out what we were doing and they sent us a heap of swags.

Um,

cause you know,

sometimes I had kids camping here that couldn't go home or whatever.

And,

um,

uh,

we had more kids than obviously blankets and,

um,

sometimes I would just under towels here and,

uh,

whatever to keep them,

keep them,

you know,

to a point that they can have a sleep at night.

So we got all these swags.

So,

um,

there was some nights where you'd have,

you know,

10,

12 kids,

kids camped here,

um,

just to make sure that they were safe and they felt safe.

Um,

and it,

it still happens,

but much,

much less because every day they're building the resilience and they're building the communication skills to be able to stay in whatever home looks like.

Uh,

but,

but I'll be straight up honest with you.

Um,

in the last two weeks,

I've had three of the young people I work with,

um,

assault or,

um,

or use,

uh,

a weapon on,

on caregivers.

Um,

these are,

you know,

kids that are new to our program.

Um,

they're in their,

their fourth week.

Um,

usually the violence really,

uh,

dissipates almost completely between third and fourth week,

which is we're on track for that.

But,

um,

but yeah,

violence can be a,

uh,

an only tool that these kids,

uh,

use in their home environments to,

to just feel like they've got some control or got some power over their own existence.

And,

uh,

so there's quite a few court cases for me to,

to support the kids coming up to,

um,

to grow and learn from,

because locking them away is not a solution for these poor choices that I feel forced to make.

I mean,

anyone that has seen a frightened animal cornered,

they know that animal is going to attack because it has no other options.

And I'm not saying these kids are animals.

I'm saying these kids are creatures just like you and me that,

um,

often,

uh,

without the skills to be able to communicate effectively,

what they're going through or what they're feeling at that time.

And,

um,

they often caged in care and,

uh,

we've got an amazing system in Australia that looks out for our young people,

but,

um,

sometimes it doesn't give them the outlets of,

uh,

their energy or the traumas or the anxieties that they may be going through.

So yeah,

it's,

it's working in the fact that usually by this stage in the 10 week initial foundation program,

um,

it dissipates a lot,

but,

um,

but unusually we've had,

uh,

a lot of,

um,

a lot of kids,

uh,

um,

probably attack those that are trying to look after them,

um,

in the system.

Um,

but hopefully going forward,

like every single teen week program,

um,

that dissipates completely.

And those of the kids that have been in our core program,

that is the ongoing after the 10 weeks,

uh,

the,

the violence dissipates completely and,

um,

it,

and it permeates all parts of their life.

And,

uh,

parents,

caregivers all,

um,

say to me the same thing every single time is like,

what the hell do you mob do there?

And,

uh,

the answer is simple.

We just be kind and we listen.

Yeah.

And,

and sketching up with you a few days ago,

I think we touched on what happens when youth get into youth detention and then graduate to,

to prison.

I mean,

the,

the data and the stats on that is horrific,

isn't it?

I mean,

can you share with you,

I mean,

that's one of the key things,

isn't it?

Keep these kids alive,

give them love and care and support to join society in a normal way.

But part is just keeping them out of detention and jail in a big way,

isn't it?

Yeah.

Well,

the,

the simple stats are that currently we've got,

we're on a,

on about 80% of,

um,

kids will go through to,

uh,

to grade 12,

but 97% of kids,

um,

that get incarcerated for a period of time in their teenagehood,

uh,

will end up in prison as adults.

And wouldn't it be great if we had 97% of kids going through to grade 12 and,

um,

yeah,

I,

um,

uh,

inability to even think that we should throw kids in jail as young as 12 in

Australia.

And,

uh,

we've got a problem with,

um,

locking people up,

you know,

the modern Australian state was kind of founded on locking people up,

isn't it?

And getting them away and putting them away,

the problem will be over there.

And it never worked 235 years ago for the British.

I mean,

they've still got jails and they've still got crime problems.

Um,

whole approach,

uh,

is what works and,

and putting a kid in a prison cell is never going to work.

It,

it never will.

No,

well said,

I,

I,

uh,

concur with you on it.

I had the great pleasure of talking to,

um,

a brilliant us author,

Don Winslow on this podcast and he's a passionate advocate in,

in the us,

the record amount of incarceration in the history of,

uh,

of,

uh,

of humankind.

And now we've got these privatized prisons as he calls them that are

incentivized to have more people in jail and make money off having more people

in jail.

Like get your head around our crazy that we've commercialized imprisonment,

uh,

fair to say that we've lost.

Our way a little bit.

And,

and we are a smaller version of that here in Australia.

So much to talk about Dave on that front.

And it's,

it is an amazing story.

I did say in the intro,

you've had a diverse life from the catwalks in Europe and,

and build up billboards as a male model.

But I want to go back.

If you don't mind 16 years ago,

uh,

reality TV,

you're a Queensland farmer and you're much love and you come out,

uh,

you know,

with your story and you,

and I read,

you know,

doing some research for today that you're,

you're the victim of a,

a horrific guy bashing and,

and,

and come out on national television.

Can,

can you tell us where did that come from within you to have the courage to do

that?

Cause it was such a,

you look back and think that was significant.

You really shifted the narrative.

It felt back then.

What was that like?

Look,

I didn't really think about it.

It's the same as taking on this role and building rough track.

Uh,

it's,

there's a problem.

Someone's got to do something about it and you look around and no one's doing

it.

So,

you know,

you've,

you've got to,

you've got to be that person.

You know,

it's like,

it's like if there's rubbish on a beach or if there's rubbish on the street,

or if there's,

there's something needs to be done,

just be the person to pick it up and put it where it belongs.

And that's just who I am as a person.

I suppose.

I don't know if that's just a general thing as,

as those of us who grow up on stations,

we don't have anyone else.

We don't have garbage collection.

We don't have a police force or ambulance or anything like,

you know,

you've got to look after your own mob and your own land.

And you've got to,

you're responsible for everything.

So maybe that's the cultural background that,

that built me as a person,

but I just couldn't understand that.

Here we were past the year 2000,

when everything was supposed to be perfect.

And we were meant to have hoverboards and,

and cars that drove themselves that we had,

you know,

hundreds of laws federally in state that still made gay people,

second-class citizens.

So our government was second-class citizen,

us where I come from,

you know,

the expectation was that you just kill yourself.

If you're gay or you move,

get, get the hell out,

go away,

give you,

give your family,

a, a,

a good reason that you're in some other city,

Sydney,

Melbourne,

or further afield,

if you possibly could just get away,

you know,

we don't want to deal with this whole gay stuff.

And I was just thinking,

this is a joke.

You know,

we had an amazing football and I've just forgotten his bloody name.

Ian Roberts.

Ian Roberts.

Yeah,

of course,

Ian Roberts came out in the 1990s.

You know,

when I was at school and that was phenomenal.

And it was like,

this whole change was going to happen and then nothing.

It's like this man put himself out there and said,

I am who I am.

And I'm cool with it.

Yeah.

Oh,

if you're not,

well,

that's your problem.

And no one kept it going.

So I thought the only way to really talk to Australia,

and I'd been involved in politics,

quite a fair bit at,

um,

uh,

you know,

in the young nationals,

which is a very right wing party and,

uh,

and trying to get changed.

There.

And I was just hitting my head against a brick wall.

And I thought the best way to do it is to go on a

reality TV show that has millions of people every night,

sitting down and got their eyes glued to it.

And I can have a conversation with every single person watching

and challenge their thinking because I couldn't challenge the politics because,

you know,

it was just not moving,

but I thought,

let's just challenge the people to,

um,

say,

you know,

do you have a problem with,

um,

with my sexuality?

And do you want to maybe think about that?

I have a conversation with your family whilst you're watching this TV show.

And,

you know,

the great opportunity was I was on there for three months and,

um,

and people could either like me or dislike me,

but I had to challenge the fact that I was a gay man.

And was,

was that why they liked me or disliked me?

And if,

if that was the case,

then maybe we could really start breaking down some prejudices as in Robertson.

I'm a football player.

I'm also guy.

Is that,

is that reason to like me or just like me?

Well,

maybe you should challenge your own prejudices.

Just like people who have,

um,

you know,

have a vagina had to break that stereotype down or people who had different coloured skin other than pale white had to break that down.

Someone had to break down this idea that being gay was somehow bad and was somehow evil and was something that we just needed to get away.

And,

uh,

three fingers pointed back at me.

It's amazing.

Is any,

and you,

you mentioned Ian Roberts took,

you know,

who just happened to be,

the toughest and most brutal rugby league player.

And that's the thing,

isn't it?

So you,

you know,

we don't,

we don't have gay men who are sheep farmers on cattle stations.

That's not how it works.

And,

and,

and it's like,

it's embarrassing.

It's not even anywhere near strong enough for word to think that's not that long ago,

16 years ago.

And it's still,

I mean,

I have read that,

you know,

even in your own family and your community,

it was,

as you said,

you know,

that serious homophobic move away,

you know,

in July.

How has that been now in the course of time?

Dave,

when you look back,

is it with your own family and your own community?

Do they get it now?

Oh,

absolutely.

Yeah.

The outpouring of love and affection for my family was amazing.

The hardest thing for me,

once I'd come out,

the realization of what have I done to my mum,

because I did come from a community where it was,

just do your family a favor and,

and do a single vehicle accident and make it,

make it look like an accident.

That was the,

the,

the common way that,

that was spoken about quite openly,

the favor that you would do for your family.

So I really feared for how the community would ostracize her as well.

My dad and,

you know,

all of my,

my many siblings.

And,

and that's,

that was my biggest fear is how they would be treated.

But it was the exact opposite.

I mean,

people absolutely embraced my family and celebrated my family and the amount of people that came out of the woodwork and said,

Oh,

you know,

you know,

James,

you know,

Michael,

you know,

Sandra,

you know,

they're gay as well.

And,

and so it really did change the way that people looked at their family.

And it's like,

kind of like,

well,

no one really has a problem.

Why,

why do I have a problem with my child or,

or my sister or anything like that?

And hopefully it did really smash a lot of those prejudices,

but I don't know what we were afraid of,

but we were probably afraid of the fear of the fear.

But I think deep down,

everyone loved their,

their gay or lesbian family members.

They just didn't know how.

So bizarre.

I find when you,

when you look back on it,

isn't to think it's such a continuum,

isn't it?

Sexuality,

what someone likes compared to what,

I mean,

why would you care out of all the things that you could care about in your life?

Yeah.

Why would that even,

and,

and,

but you're right.

I mean,

it's took such courage and,

you know,

I,

I played AFL football,

Damon,

and there's still some huge concern that that's still not a,

an environment where a male players,

ever felt comfortable coming in.

So it's not as though,

you know,

that's been moved on.

I mean,

you shifted the needle big time in what you did,

but yeah,

it's strange to me that there's still people that have,

however,

you can have prejudice on that off.

I find,

I find bizarre.

Did you feel,

you know,

now 2022 and I love your story.

You know,

you're,

you're a dad to,

to,

to four children.

That's a great story as well.

Can you tell us about,

about that?

You've,

you know,

it's five now.

Oh,

I'm sorry.

Another one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No,

I don't,

I don't like around,

but yeah,

no,

I'm very proud donor dad to,

to five now.

So yeah,

it's an ongoing journey.

It's,

it's,

it's something that look,

you know,

like still even someone who has prejudiced against someone of a different

race,

it blows my mind that that can still happen or,

or someone that has a misogynistic thing to say,

it still blows my mind that someone would say,

well,

women shouldn't,

what,

what is that?

But also,

yeah,

just the simple sexuality issue.

It is bizarre.

That some men not that long ago,

refused to wear a Jersey because it was a bit of a rainbow on

it.

And they,

they couldn't even bring themselves to send a message of compassion and,

and integration to others.

So,

you know,

there is still a lot of prejudice out there,

but the good news is that every year it gets less and less.

And that's because people are making choices to think differently about things

and,

and how it actually really affects you.

I mean,

when you walk outside and it's raining,

you get wet.

If someone's in a gay relationship,

nothing like absolutely nothing happens to you.

If someone's skin is a different color to you,

nothing happens to you.

I mean,

the rain will get you wet,

but if someone else's unchangeable factors will not affect you in any way,

shape or form.

It's a great way to,

to express the absurdity of it.

And once again,

it's a,

I love your leadership story.

And in every area of your life,

there's a pattern,

isn't it?

You step up when,

as you said,

the challenge needs to be taken on.

What we've been asking these,

I've been asking these questions of a range of different leaders from sport and social venture and industry and the arts and,

and what we think great leadership looks like.

And we think there's a big shift that,

Dave,

in leaders and how they lead with empathy and lead with the care that is clearly what you do every single day.

You've just come out with a breech lamb.

You told me before we started,

and you know,

the kids have experienced,

you know,

what that's like on the farm today.

So we start with self-leadership and ask that question.

We think most leaders have a real sense of self-leadership.

When I ask you about that,

what does that term mean to you?

That you have to model exactly what you want.

If you want respect,

if you want kindness,

if you want town talk,

if you want anything,

you've got to model it and,

and you've got to be what you want.

And if you can't be it,

well,

then maybe you should get to the back of the line,

you know,

like,

leaders have to lead from the front and they've got to do everything that they expect others to do.

This idea of you should do,

that doesn't wash with me.

That's not,

not in my playbook of leadership.

It,

it really is leading from a place of this is,

this is what I can do for you.

This is what,

this is me giving you all of what I have and it's your choice with what,

what you want to do with that.

And it's about giving those choices.

The authenticity you can,

you can feel in meeting you a few days ago,

it,

it pours out of you.

There's no other option in your DNA,

which is,

which is brilliant to share.

We,

we see leaders are now really conscious about how they positively impact others in their environment.

I mean,

rough track,

you could not get a better example of,

of having a positive impact.

I mean,

how have you thought about that consciously about how you go about impacting others positively?

Yeah,

absolutely.

This afternoon,

I,

I took three kids that have been going through some really tough times and the way I teach young people,

if you're going through something tough,

give,

give,

give what you have.

And it's that old adage of if you've got nothing to give,

well,

then give your time,

give your ears.

And so we went out and did a flood recovery for a turf farmer that is just run off his feet.

He can't get enough staff just to do is what he's actually doing with his veggies.

And he's got all this rubble and rock and everything.

That's just six metres of water.

I've just obliterated his farm.

He's lost huge big gouges of his turf and we're out there picking up picking up rocks and it's hard work.

It's really hard work.

And but for me,

the leadership is to say to these kids,

you know,

if you if you really want something then then give it give it out because someone else needs that and and that's how you effectively create a cycle that that is a good cycle.

That that we can pass on to others.

Such a brilliant message,

isn't it?

The second you get into the mode of giving you stop thinking about self,

don't you?

And and and the problems we create for ourselves as we do.

I mean in the most extreme example,

it's such a it's simple,

but it's so it's such a brilliant way to think about it.

I mean we see ladies are really sophisticated how they go about creating and sharing the vision and you know,

I only found out about rough track and he said it's based on the backtrack program.

That's been,

successfully run for a long period of time and and you get your message out really well.

You've got a great way of articulating.

Have you have you been conscious about creating and sharing that business?

No,

no,

I just do it.

I mean,

yeah,

I went on back to the future big brother just recently in order to share this rough track message and it wasn't to to,

you know,

see if I could get a TV gig or it wasn't to,

um,

sell teeth whitening ointments on Instagram.

It was again to be able to come into contact with you and to be able to tell the rough track story because it's one worth sharing.

But the one thing that I know is at the heart of every human is this concept that it takes a village to raise our kids.

It doesn't take a chieftain.

It takes a village and and if I tell people what the village is doing with animals and with skills and with compassion,

well,

then they're going to get involved and and that's what I'm hoping out of all the things that I do when I'm sharing this.

This message is that people will get involved and we need a lot of stuff at rough track.

I mean,

we need more leaders.

We want tradies out there that want to actually give back the opportunities that they've been given in a selfless lot way.

But um,

but also in a way that,

you know,

we actually do offer real jobs that that they can actually get involved in teaching our young people.

By,

by leading from the front,

leading with compassion and and setting the example that they want these young people to follow.

Davo,

the great pleasure of talking to Dr.

Anna Rubenstein,

who's been a world leader in bringing back rites of passage for teenagers and in his words are really lost over 2,000 years.

Tribes were sophisticated about how we ushered our teenagers,

you know,

in particular back then boys to men was a really big and we've lost that that way.

And there's so much,

you know,

since he's doing that,

bringing dads together,

getting them to talk about the care of their kids and getting them around the campfire.

And you're doing it at the end of,

you know,

the point of saving lives,

but it's great.

And even as a parent of four,

you hopefully created a loving environment,

but you learn so much just in the language that you're sharing today.

It's such a great story for all of us,

wherever we sit in that space,

you know,

looking after our teenagers is maybe the most,

you know,

important thing that we can all do.

We see leaders are really curious,

Davo,

about everything.

And through curiosity,

that's how they constantly evolve and learn.

Does that word resonate with you being curious?

Yeah.

Yeah,

and and I try and make that contagious.

And so yesterday I,

I was sharing a YouTube video because kids are on their phones all the time.

I think kids are constantly on the phone.

So I'm like,

hey,

did you guys do you guys see this video about how to smelt iron?

And you know,

we're all in there watching this video on how to smelt or how to smelt.

Iron and then that gives us a conversation to talk about,

you know,

all the different ages,

the metal ages from the bronze age and the copper age before that and the stone age.

And it gives you so many opportunities to create conversations around how incredible humans are.

But but also the idea that that wasn't that long ago.

And I mean in some parts where I come from and big and bold country,

only a hundred and fifty years ago,

we're a stone age people and and it gives you so many opportunities for,

for conversation that you can allow the kids to take it where they want to go.

Are we going to be talking about jobs in as a Boilermaker?

Or are we going to be talking about the clash of cultures that happened in many parts of Australia over the last two hundred and thirty years?

You know,

so it I like the kids to lead the conversations,

but I love to have that curiosity that you can inject into the conversation to allow us to go in a direction whereby.

We're not going to end up going.

This sucks.

That's so I want some cones,

you know,

like and that's often the conversation that started before we inject some in curiosity into the conversation.

The next dimension.

I want to talk to you as communicating with clarity and there may be no more difficult environment any,

you know of house full of teenagers and you sometimes get six words a week.

If you're if you're having a good week and and you're learning to sort of back off and create the space and hopefully,

that that they do come back.

I mean for you to be able to communicate with clarity.

I mean,

what what's the skill set that you bring down?

And you're brilliant at it in terms of telling the Rough Tracks story.

But have you thought about that a lot in your in your world?

It is critical for me to give confidence.

I was an anxiety-ridden teenager and like so much so that I missed most of my senior year and and you know,

I had to go away to boarding school as most Bush kids have to and I missed,

most of my senior year simply because I was so anxious that if I was running late for a class,

because most of the doors were at the front of the classroom,

I couldn't go in the classroom because I was afraid that all them other lads are going to be looking at me.

I was petrified.

So I'd go and hide in the in the bathroom.

That's how afraid of being in front of humans let alone speaking in front of humans was but I had that crazy opportunity to go modeling,

which was all just by chance and coincidence.

And I learned the confidence.

Confidence of being in front of people just by being a walking coat hanger and and it really came from there that I was pushed out into the world because all I ever wanted to do was live on my farm and be away from from humans.

I know what it's like to be so riddled with anxiety that you can't even be seen by humans.

So I get where so many of the kids that come here are.

So to get a kid that has got his hoodie over and he's got his sashy bag there.

And the only thing,

the only movement you see is when they're rolling the dart,

to stick in their hoodie little mouth here.

The only movement is that that when you see them in a few weeks later performing in front of thousands of people,

like I had 16 of these kids performing at Sydney Olympic Park two weekends ago in front of tens of thousands of people with their dog,

you know, giving them the confidence to be able to be in front of humans and then allow them the confidence to communicate.

Sometimes it's just a few words.

It could be a yes,

or it could be,

you know,

it could be just their names,

but being able to get that microphone in front of them and and for them to go,

wow,

I have power to be able to communicate whatever message and that's what we do every single day here.

There's six different opportunities for them to speak in front of a group here every single day because once you have confidence,

then you have career opportunities,

but also you have the ability to open up what's happening inside and get it to the outside world.

Yeah, beautiful.

Beautifully said.

What an incredible,

you know,

I suppose part of the program that is challenging,

but you've got an amazing way of bringing that to life.

We see leaders value collaboration now,

Dave, more than ever before.

How important has collaboration been for you?

You can't raise a kid without a village.

So we have our tracker network,

which is there's nine of our organizations throughout New South Wales and Queensland.

So we're constantly collaborating with each other about what it is that we can do in each of our communities.

We catch up every two months.

We all visit each of us in our silos to make sure we break down that silo within their own community because this job can be all-consuming.

But you know, this organization,

Rough Track, only started with heaps of community groundswell.

So with our police and of course the kids that come to us,

they're enemy number one on all fronts.

But today when I took the bus,

a busload of kids out to do some flood recovery work,

stopped on the side of the road in our bus,

and then right next to us was a PCYC full of cops.

Kids are all having a yarn to them.

And that's when you know you're breaking down barriers.

So when you collaborate with the enemy,

you find out that they're not actually the enemy.

And that's when breaking down barriers,

whichever direction you can go,

be it the general public,

again, a lot of our kids hate the general public because they think the general public hates them,

and giving them the opportunity to,

have a pathway of communication to be able to get a hand and give a hand.

It's just everything that we do is collaboration.

And you know, oftentimes just getting our kids to work together on a project,

to lift something that's heavy together.

You got to communicate, you got to work together to be able to get that,

because I guarantee you every kid that comes to you,

the first thing that he's going to do if I ask him to help out is drop it and go,

fuck this, fucking this is shit.

But give him a couple of weeks,

or give her a couple of weeks.

And they're like, okay, ready?

One, two, three, and away they go.

And then they're communicating with each other about how it is.

They're going to get that heavy object to where they want to go.

And then afterwards, the smile on their face,

when they get something as a team where they want it to go,

which is exactly what I saw only about an hour ago when the last three kids left here,

they had, they built a huge big fire pit,

a big massive metal fire pit with rough track on the side.

And they had to get it in one of the kids,

boots of his mum's car.

And the fact that they all got it in there,

and then I just saw them all turn around and smile and high five each other.

It's just like, that's gold.

That's collaboration.

You can feel the joy in that brilliant story.

It's just sensational to hear it all come together in such a way,

saving lives and teaching kids along the way.

It's incredible.

Asking these two final questions, Dave,

to all the leaders I've had the privilege of sitting down with.

And I'll start with this for you.

Who's been the greatest leader in your life?

It's pretty easy, but a bizarre one, I suppose.

Queen Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth II.

She epitomises leadership to me.

So she quietly and confidently has been monarch to so many people for 70 years.

And she does it with incredible dignity and dedication.

And here she is still,

in the absolute twilight of her life,

giving everything that she's got.

And, you know, what she went through in the 1990s with her own family breakdowns,

with, you know, her ancestral home burning down and feeling like,

you know, the entire universe was probably against her reign.

But she just soldiered on every single day with dedication and commitment.

And that gets me through everything that goes wrong in my life.

And, you know, it doesn't matter if she has all the wealth in the world.

The fact is, the responsibility ends with her.

And she wears that responsibility like no other human I've ever come across.

It's an extraordinary answer, Dale.

If you had to give me a thousand guesses, I wouldn't have got anywhere near Queen.

And it's great to hear, to say that, because it's underappreciated.

I think the royals, you know, cop a whack for people

because this sense of entitlement and privilege.

But when you break it down like that, you think of her, you know,

she was 20 or younger, I think, when she came into that role.

And, you know, across from Churchill.

And you think of the leaders that have sat down at that table

and the grace that she's had and the composure to be able to continue it.

I mean, I have never thought of her in that light.

What an incredible sense, you know, from a sheep farmer

and a station to take that sense of values from Queen Elizabeth.

I'm sure she'd love to...

What a boss, though.

Like, what a boss.

I know.

When she was in her 20s, she had to be the boss of Winston Churchill.

I mean, in a period of time where women couldn't even, you know,

buy a home without the permission of a man.

And she did it in her 20s to what was clearly one

of the most powerful humans that have ever existed.

So, yeah, just from the outset, that woman just,

she just impresses me beyond anything when it comes to real leadership.

And it comes from an inner strength, not a physical strength of any measure.

Fascinated by that answer.

I love it.

In the spirit of collaboration, we're obsessed with collaboration.

If you could collaborate with anyone on the world on anything,

and you've clearly got so many passions in the work you do,

is there someone that you would love to collaborate with on any part of your life?

Your dear listener, the person listening to this right now.

Yeah, that's who I want to collaborate with.

Because we've all got a role, and you can be part of a greater future.

And we often feel so insignificant, whether it's at the ballot box

or whether it's watching television news or just being in society

and seeing things that we don't like.

We feel so insignificant and powerless.

And yet, your listener, you have power.

Yeah.

You can change lives by getting involved in what we do here at Rough Track

or saying something kind to a young person that may not have heard it that day

because they've got this look about them that says,

fuck off world.

And so that's how the world treats them.

But you could break through that by saying something kind.

And they may tell you to fuck off, but you know what?

That kind word may change the outcome of that young person's life.

What a brilliant message to end on.

And I love, as you say, the ability to impact someone with a random act of kindness

or someone in your sphere just with having that empathy is profound.

I think another great way, I mean, to create a permanent home for Rough Track

in your part of the world feels like something that just has to happen.

And so how do we do that?

How do we get involved, get behind Rough Track?

What's the best way for us to donate and support the work you're doing?

Yeah, well, we're a fully-fledged charity, so tax-deductible.

Donations via our website, roughtrack.com.

We build stuff.

We make stuff.

We're out in the community and, you know, buy stuff off our website

that the kids have made.

I mean, there's fully-functional fire pits at the moment.

We do metal cutouts.

We do artworks.

We've now got a coffee cart, and we do productions.

So we're coming down to the Melbourne Royal Show.

We're going to the Melbourne Dog Lovers Show

at Geoff's Shed.

We're out and about and we're everywhere.

So if it's simply just saying a kind word on our Facebook page or our Insta,

because the kids all read it and they see it, and these are the kids

that think the world hates them.

And to see comments from people who say, no, we don't hate you,

we think what you're doing is amazing, or actually investing in our future

so that we can actually give these kids that security of tenure

because we're being built out here in the Hawkesbury,

and there is a ticking time bomb on our future.

So we're going to be working on the services that we can provide

on this lease-held farm.

So if we can get a forever farm, and if that's your business,

giving a sizeable, taxable donation, tax-deductible donation to us,

or if it's an individual saying, you know what,

I'm not going to have a coffee today, I'm going to give $5 to Rough Track,

well, it all makes a difference because it takes a village.

And you, dear listener, are part of our village.

Beautifully said, Dave.

It's an incredible story, an incredible life that you've lived

of courage and leadership and the ultimate contribution,

tackling one of the most sophisticatedly challenging things

that our country and society faces.

You're doing it in such an amazing way.

It's a heartwarming story.

Great honour to spend some time with you.

Thanks for sharing the story, Dave.

And look up Rough Track.

Get behind support, Dave, and the amazing work he does.

Thanks again.

Yeah, no worries.

And look, to us, my job is to create space for someone else to fill it.

And the good thing is is that I've got young people at Rough Track

that are jumping up, stepping up, and they're doing me out of a job.

And that's me as a leader is to be done out of a job.

That's what I want.

I love it.

What an inspiration.

Thanks again.

Thanks, mate.

Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy,

produced by Matt Dwyer with audio production by Darcy Thompson.

To start your leadership journey, I encourage you to go to elitacollective.com,

take our Empowering Leaders Indicator tool,

and understand the impact you have on your environment.

Join us at Elita to learn, lead, and collaborate.

Listener.