Elizabeth Broderick On The Respect And Dignity We Have For One Another

I hope you enjoyed this conversation with an incredible Australian leader, Elizabeth Broderick.

She's currently working with the United Nations Human Rights Council addressing gender inequality globally.

A remarkable person and you'll love hearing about Elizabeth's sense of positivity, even when the stats are incredibly challenging and damning.

Her story of picking up the phone and ringing the most senior men in Australian corporate life is one that you want to hear.

And understanding the complexity of impacting gender inequality in a country like Afghanistan and how she's going about it, Elizabeth, is a remarkable story.

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Elizabeth Broderick, AO, was Australian.

Now is longer serving sex discrimination commissioner from 2007 to 2015.

Elizabeth has successfully brought together captains of industry, governments, defence force chiefs and the like to address gender inequality in Australia and beyond.

Elizabeth established and convenes the globally recognised champions of change strategy, enlisting a who's who of powerful male leaders to tackle workplace gender inequality.

Elizabeth is an independent expert on the United Nations Human Rights Council.

Holding a special procedures mandate as part of a working group of five to assist nation states and other actors on laws and practices that discriminate against women.

In 2016, Elizabeth was awarded the New South Wales Australian of the Year for her extraordinary contribution.

Elizabeth, really appreciate your time.

It's great to see you today.

Yeah, lovely to see you, Luke.

It's an incredible legacy you've got, an impact that you've made to take such a strong leadership stance on gender inequality.

Where did that strength come from within you?

It's interesting, isn't it?

I've often reflected on that and thought, well, was there a moment in time?

But I don't think there was a moment that set me on that path.

I think probably it was because I was born an identical twin.

And the fact is, when you're an identical twin, from the minute you put your feet on the ground, you're looking around to see whether you and your twin are being, you know, dealt with, well, in a sense, fairly, but I'd say equally as well.

So if my twin sister got a particular present for Christmas.

Did I get one which is, you know, as good of equal or comparable value?

So I think just right from the get go, you understand what fairness looks like, what equality looks like.

And that just becomes part of who you are and the way you see the world and navigate the world.

And so I suppose I had an acute antenna for unfairness.

I still remember with mum and dad occasionally would take us out to restaurants and I would always want to go to the restaurant which had no people in it.

Ordinarily for very good reasons.

And there were no people, probably the food wasn't very good, but it just made me really understand, I think, fairness, human suffering, those types of things.

So that's just how I'm built, I think.

And that's probably what set me on that path.

Well, I'm fascinated about your identical twin.

What's the relationship like?

Are you similar?

Have you got similar values?

Yeah, we're very close.

We live a couple of streets from each other.

We always said, OK, we need to be a 90 second person.

And push away from each other.

So and we we went to separate schools right from the get go.

My mum was a very strong in the belief that competition can kill relationships.

So she didn't want us to be in environments which were competitive.

So my dad used to drive my twin sister in one direction.

My mum would drive me in the other direction and we'd go to our separate schools.

And periodically we would dress up in each other's uniform and go off to each other's schools.

Which was always, I have to say, a very stressful experience.

And even in the final year, we were both head school captains of our respective schools.

So we had so much fun together as well with our friends and whatever.

But yes, scary at times, terrifying, Luke.

What an amazing commitment from your parents, isn't it?

To go to that extra mile to make sure that there was harmony in that relationship.

It must have been tempting to go to one school and not take on.

Well, that it's an incredible effort, isn't it?

You're right, because having had my own kids now, the idea that, you know, you're sending one this way and one that way, you know, with all the busyness of life, it was an incredible commitment.

And I think if it was left up to my dad, he wouldn't have gone that way.

But my mum was an activist and she made that decision.

I still remember she had to write to the minister for education because at that time you had to send your kids to the school that was in your area.

We went to a local public school.

So she had to get a special.

It was a dispensation to send me to one school and my sister to the other.

But when I think about it now and I reflect back on it, the fact that we were never competing, because if she did better in her French exam than I did in mine, I just remind her about how difficult French was.

And we had a much higher barrier at our school than she would have had at her school.

And I still remember she the one day that we swapped schools was the day of the big year nine science exam, which I'd forgotten.

I'd admitted to tell her about.

So she arrived at my school to be sat down with, you know, the exam paper.

I have to say I came third in the class.

Thanks very much, Luke.

So we had fun with it that way as well.

I love it.

That's that's incredible.

And no one knew.

No one picked up.

No.

Look, our close friends knew.

But aside from that, none of the teachers knew or whatever.

I still remember being hauled up in her German class.

Now, I've never spoken a word of German in my entire life, thankfully.

And we one half of the class had to ask the other half a word.

And you had to say it in German.

Fortunately, one of her friends cottoned on the fact that I wasn't Jane.

I was actually Liz and asked me what the name, you know, thank you was to which my one German word.

I was able to say Duncan and Duncan.

And that was about the extent of it.

So, yeah.

Brilliant.

I want to jump into to the stats.

And it takes a turn.

It isn't Elizabeth.

One in three women over the age of 15 have experienced physical or sexual violence.

980 million women worldwide and 1.2 million of those in Australia live in an intimate relationship that is characterized by violence.

It's horrific when you say that out loud.

In your mind, are we seeing progress?

Are we making a difference?

Look, I think we're discussing this issue much more openly today than we would have five years, 10 years ago.

And, you know, the reason we're doing that is the good work of a lot of NGOs, you know, who are bringing this on to the national agenda, but also people like Rosie Batty, Grace Tame and others who have had the courage to actually get up and tell their personal story.

And I still remember with Rosie Batty, I was able to invite Rosie to meet with a group of CEOs through a strategy which I founded about 10 years ago now called the Champions.

It brings together CEOs of organizations all across Australia.

And Rosie had the courage to sit down with them and just talk to them about her experience of living in an intimate relationship characterized by violence and also working at the same time and helping these CEOs see that there were so many times when Rosie, as a woman living with violence, reached out for help and nothing ever happened.

So it was really the question she posed to them was, you know, when women living with violence speak, the system isn't listening.

So how can we shift that?

Because every one of us makes up the system.

So I think it was, you know, the great work that she did and others, which mean that the issue is on our agenda.

But let's remember Australia here today, almost more than one woman a week is murdered by her intimate partner.

Yeah.

I take it out more, more, more globally.

Next week, I'm supposed to travel into Afghanistan on the UN country mission into Afghanistan and the levels of violence and just discrimination and erasure of women from all aspects of public life in so many regions of the world.

But Afghanistan would have to be a standout.

It's increasing.

It's increasing as a result of COVID.

It's increasing as a result of a rise of populism.

And religious fundamentalism.

But we, you know, we and I'd say everyone in this, it'll take all of us to actually shift this picture.

And Elizabeth, you mentioned, you know, Rosie Batty, who have had the incredible pleasure to meet a handful of times.

And she said, I remember her saying to me prior to Luke's death, her son's death, it was murdered by her partner in the most horrific possible way you could imagine.

She said, no one wanted to hear my story living with violence.

After Luke's death, everyone suddenly wanted to hear her story.

And for those that don't know it, it's worth having a listen to Rosie's story.

When you personalize it like that and you just see how devastating that was for everyone.

I suppose when I think about it, for me, you know, turning 48 this year, I think of my beautiful 18-year-old daughter.

I think of my beautiful wife and how lucky I am.

My two beautiful sisters and my mom.

And how would I react if someone was violent or discriminatory?

Towards them, zero tolerance is the answer.

Is that the way for men to understand a bit better through their own loved ones?

Does that resonate like it does with me, Elizabeth?

Yeah, I think, look, personalizing it is always a good strategy.

But, you know, from a human rights perspective, when one woman is diminished in that way, we're all diminished, essentially.

So I think, yes, understand it in your own circle.

Because that will allow you to have a deep emotional attachment to the issue.

But then try to extrapolate out from that.

And, you know, when I look at violence against women and particularly domestic and family violence, at the heart of that issue is gender inequality.

One of the things we know from the research here in Australia is those men that believe fundamentally in gender equality.

So they believe that men and women are truly equal.

Their propensity to commit violence against women is almost zero.

So that's the attitude we've got to be engendering in our sons.

We've got to help our sons understand that men and women, people of all genders, are equal.

They deserve respect and human dignity.

I mean, that's a basic human right.

And, you know, right from the beginning, I think if they grow up with that belief, and let's face it, it's when they look around their own family, how does dad treat mom?

Mm-hmm.

I mean, that's really important.

If dad's disrespecting mom, why will I grow up believing that women deserve respect?

I won't.

So I think respect starts at home.

It's what we model.

And that's in opposite-sex relationships as well as same-sex relationships as well.

So if we want our kids to actually be respectful, we need to model it every day in our family, in our workplaces, and in the community.

That's what I believe.

Human rights starts at home.

Yeah, beautifully.

You said, and you mentioned Champions of Change, which you founded, and you picked up the phone, and you ranked some of the most influential men in Australian business life, CEOs of the big banks, of Qantas, of IBM.

You went straight to the top, and there was a bit of backlash towards you for that, too.

It's like, why are we, you know, why is this about males again?

Tell us about your strategy and why that was so important and why it's worked.

Yeah, so when I became Australia's Sex Discrimination Commissioner, I kind of had in my mind, well,

you know, gender equality is a women's issue.

I'm just going to get all the great women I know, and we'll all get on board together.

And I started down that path, but I came to understand that, actually, gender equality is really about the redistribution of power, whether that's in a family, a workplace, or indeed in a nation.

And if we want to redistribute power, then I need to work with those who hold the levers of power.

And even today, in 2023, in pretty much every nation of the world, we're going to have to work with those who hold the levers of power.

And even today, in 2023, in pretty much every nation of the world, it's men that largely hold the levers of power, not exclusively, but largely.

So then I started to understand, okay, well, if that's the case, then I need to engage with powerful, decent, you know, good men who want to create a peaceful, prosperous, and gender equal world.

And that's when I decided, look, I could do a whole lot of research to see who these men are, or I could just go through the paper, look at the big names, and I'll pick up the phone and ring them, which is essentially what I did.

Yeah.

I did a whole lot of strategic planning and research and whatever.

No, I just figured, I'm going to pick up the phone and ring these men.

And I still remember I started with a beautiful man who was the head of IBM in our region at the time.

And I just, I helped him see the absence of women.

So at that time, I think we had only 8% of women on company boards.

We had only 10% in, you know, executive roles.

You know, women were continuing to be murdered by intimate partners.

I just took him through that because I also understood that he had twins, a boy and a girl, and helped him see that, you know, that his daughter would never have the same opportunities as his son, all because she was born a girl.

And, you know, at that point, he just kind of said, well, yeah, just tell me, where do I sign up?

What do I need to do?

And I started to understand also that once you get a few men on board.

Other men look up to, then you've got yourself a strategy, which is, which can, you know, really evolve.

And that's where we're at today.

We've got about 270 champions of change.

They're both men and women now, because very much this is about bringing women as CEOs into the fold as well.

So that's where we've ended up.

Yeah, congratulations.

It's become, you know, such a part of your legacy, isn't it?

And engaging people in that way.

And that message does filter down.

You know, in preparation.

After this conversation, Elizabeth, as I said, as a male, 47, you start scanning your own world a little bit more closely.

And you realize, I went to an all-boys school.

I went to an all-boys boarding school.

I played AFL football in an incredibly male-dominated environment.

I worked in the media, which was, you know, incredibly male-dominated.

And I don't think I've ever been biased in any way.

As I said, I love the women in my life.

But it's only in recent times that I've had this great pleasure of working with so many incredible, brilliant women.

And understand.

And this skill set that men just don't have.

That women naturally bring to the table.

That is just an amazing thing to be around.

Is that a thought that you hear a lot from people like me?

I just hadn't experienced it.

It wasn't something that I had planned.

And when you do, you see the benefit and the joy.

And hopefully breaking down those barriers.

No, you're so right, Luke.

Because each of us, we see the world as we are rather than as it is.

And if you go to an all-boys school, an all-boys college, you're in an all-boys working.

environment or sporting environment, that's the way you see the world.

And I think it's when you get out and understand, particularly the lived experiences of women.

Women that you care about.

Women who you come into contact about.

And you sit and listen deeply to their stories.

That's when you start to understand, well, actually the system as constructed today,

it actually delivers some advantages to men.

Some power and privilege that women don't necessarily have.

And let's face it.

Not all women are equal.

I mean, there's women like me who are white women, cisgender, educated.

I probably have experienced much greater advantages through the women's movement than my indigenous sisters or women of color.

So, you know, understanding everyone else's experience and then asking yourself, well, you know, this is happening on my watch.

I'm someone as a white man with power and influence.

What can I do to actually shift?

What can I do to shift the system?

And I think then just taking those small steps, which is firstly about listening to others' experience and then asking, look, what support can I give?

How could I be a really strong male ally in relation to gender equality?

I think that's really important.

Elizabeth, you've been courageous and open enough to speak about as a young lawyer experiencing sexual harassment yourself.

Was that part of your lived experience that created this desire in you to make change?

Yeah, I think, I mean, I, when I was a sex discrimination commissioner, decided to publicly tell my story, as you said.

And I didn't tell it because it was a more important story.

It absolutely wasn't.

I told it because it spoke to a lot of the issues that all women talk to me about, the silence, the shame, the inability to change my situation, the going from a job that I really loved to not liking what I was doing.

Liking work.

There are all the things that many women who experienced sexual harassment, actually, that's their experience as well.

So I told my story for that reason.

And I'm determined to actually get out through listening to thousands of stories of sexual harassment, sexual assault.

I do that in my consulting work every single day in many regions of the world.

And I'm absolutely determined to name.

You know that.

experience and help people see that you know that that if we want to live in a world which is

where everyone feels safe then every one of us has to take action to end sexual harassment and

the fact is if you're not hearing about sexual harassment in your workplace it doesn't mean it's

not happening it just means you're not asking the right questions you're not getting out and

listening enough because what we do know is that around 25 percent of women have been sexually

harassed in the last few years that's a high percentage of women so it's absolutely out there

but people are silent on it because if I dare to speak out about it then not only will I be the

victim of a sexual harassment I'll be the victim of bringing it to the attention of management as

well and Elizabeth just picking up on on those work environments as you said that you know the

numbers as you said you're not seeing it's not because it's not happening but it feels like a

really complex world now

around right and wrong and we want our workplaces to be fun we want them to be dynamic and we want

to have great relationships with our female and male colleagues I think as a whole but

how would you describe what's appropriate now because it does seem

a bit more complex than it was can you define that that's right and I worry that you know for

many men they'll be cautious and they'll kind of pull back from their relationships with women

because they're scared and so I think you're understanding what sexual harassment is and

it's really unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature which offends intimidates humiliates so but what

is it because there's a gray area on that I mean can I ask someone in the workplace out for a date

I mean a lot of people find their mates in workplaces and I think you know really just

understanding of course you can but once that individual said you know that it's they don't

want to go out or whatever to continue to do that then it's really unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature

continue go back and keep on asking them that's when you're starting to cross the line

a lot of the sexual harassment that happens today as well is not necessarily physical it's

sending unwanted sexting you know videos images those types of things as well

so I think it's the obligations on the employer to make sure that everyone knows what's appropriate

and what's not and I think also what's happened is organizational dynamics

have really shifted in the last few years particularly after the me too movement so

the sexualized banter which we might have heard five years ago it actually no longer has a place

in most workplaces so just really being aware of that and just testing also you know is this

conversation okay for you or or whatever I think is really important so keeping your antenna up

my rule is

if you're worried about it don't do it because it's something you know that's telling you this

is a bit on the edge so maybe I should desist and I know good organizations are when they onboard

people they've got good strategies to create a common language in this area so one example I'm

thinking about is an industrial company when you come in you're taught the say it again strategy

so if you were you know telling a sexualized

I'd say hi Luke can you say that again

and everyone in the organization knows well looks a little bit

potentially going across the line it's just a depersonalized way of just saying to Luke I'm

feeling a bit uncomfortable here so there's some really good work and strategies being done there

yeah no doubt the landscape has changed enormously hasn't it Elizabeth you know five years now and

what was you know deemed acceptable and even in in broadcasting on air that's it's just you're right

used to be a lot more free-flowing and now I find myself in that situation all the time where you've

got no intention to do anything that would harm or upset or anyone but you're right it's a good

way to think about it and if you are thinking about it could be what's the upside yeah maybe

maybe leave it out maybe move on exactly I also think we need a bit of tolerance here though as

well because everyone's learning and you don't want to be dumped on by a huge height from the

sisterhood or whoever it is so I always I you know make it my business just to help educate

people in a in a humorous way or whatever just to kind of help people see that maybe and you know

sex everyday sexism is one thing but I see everyday racism and those types of things as well

we do need to call it out but in a way which doesn't alienate people but gets them to come

on the journey of learning what's acceptable and what's not I mentioned in the intro you're one of

the United Nations

key leaders on human on the Human Rights Council for addressing this globally the gender inequality

challenge it's an incredible role that you've got incredible leadership position what

what are the traits that you feel have helped you in those key roles

well I've learned as I've gone along because you know creating change at an organizational

level is one thing creating change at a nation state level is something else

and I

I

I

, I undertake the UN's country missions I interact with the leaders of nation states and I use similar principles which is not to go on the attack for me I work within the corridors of power I mean change happens on a continuum and radical activism is very important it's just not the type of work that I do I'm more sit within the corridors of power to help expand that out to help leaders

powerful leaders see

that small shifts can actually have an outsized impact

so I think for me what have I learned I've learned that

I need to build bridges of understanding between different

views and perspectives

so

I do that by a number of techniques one is when I enter into a conversation with

someone

I never assume ill intent I always assume good intentions

intent or at a base level, even neutral intent. Even if I had a conversation with this same

individual a couple of weeks before, and we were on different parts of a planet. So assume good

intent. And then I can disagree with people's views, but what I can never disagree with is

the influences and forces that have shaped them to hold that view. And just to give you an example

of that, I mean, I'm in a small working group of five special rapporteurs. We traverse very

emotionally difficult grounds, such as abortion, surrogacy, sex work. And even amongst the five of

us, we have different views. Now, as a women's rights activist, most of us would agree in women's

reproductive rights and women's right to abortion. But one of our members,

didn't see it that way. And so I could see initially that we were just butting heads on

that issue. But what we came to understand is that individual, when they were about age 10,

their parents had been taken away in their country to a re-education camp. And this individual was

left at age 10 with a younger brother to really raise that younger brother. And it was a

Pentecostal church that accepted her in. And that's how her

views about women's reproductive rights were shaped. So that's why she's not a proponent of

women's ability to access abortion. And once we kind of understood that, we could say, OK, well,

what is it that we can agree with? Because we could put ourselves in her situation and say,

well, if we'd been raised in the Pentecostal church, we probably wouldn't agree with women's

right to seek an abortion as well. So I just think instead of disagreeing with someone's view,

actually going to...

Try and understand what are the influences and forces that have shaped them to hold that view.

And let's see if we can identify some common ground at that part. That's what leads you to

really build a strong platform for reform. And that's what I try to do in the interactions I had,

whether it's with the head of a nation state, an ambassador or whatever, or indeed,

someone that I meet at the coalface in a mine site or in a factory or wherever it is on a sporting

field.

Yeah, Elizabeth, you mentioned your pending trip to Afghanistan, potentially. And I think you see

the images of progression and young women going to university and school and education and

progression. And then we've just seen an immediate halt back into sort of sixth century times. I

mean, is there hope? How do you even start to tackle something that is just seemingly so intricate

as Afghanistan?

I know. Look, it's so difficult. We are in a period of major pushback on human rights generally,

but particularly the rights of women and girls and the LGBTIQ community. So that's happening in

every region of the world. We're seeing a real pushback. But in these roles, you have to have

hope. And without hope, then, you know, there is no future which is underpinned by human rights. So

I, you know, sometimes I feel despairing, but I don't keep a chair for despair. Absolutely not.

I, I also understand that, you know, to think about me taking a particular action, and it will

have any given impact. So for example, our country mission to Afghanistan, if I held on to the belief

that we would be able to change the Taliban, then I could be very sorely disappointed. So what I do

is really focus on the fact that I'm not going to be able to change the Taliban. I'm going to be able to

focus more on the work that I'm doing. Do I believe in the truth, the rightness and the value of the

work that I'm doing? Because if I believe in that, that should be enough, rather than believe that

I'm going to get any given outcome, because it's way too complex for that. And I think those leaders

who are leading in really periods of such mass uncertainty, complexity, we have to come back to

that type of impact.

Rather than thinking, well, I'm taking this action. And if I don't get that impact, I'm a failure. So

Elizabeth, I wanted to speak to you about a range of different leadership traits that we see

common with extraordinary leaders like you and love your perspective and your world and the

legacy that you've got in, in really changing the conversation around gender inequality. But we see

from a leadership point of view, Elizabeth, that very hard to start without a sense of

self-leadership. And does that term resonate with you, self-leadership?

Absolutely. I mean, you have to walk. I believe that leadership is not a title or it is a skill set,

I suppose, in some ways, but it's a way of walking in the world. And anyone can be a leader. But you

have to walk in the world in a way that is totally congruent with what you say as well. We are what we

do, not what we say. So for me, as someone who's a human rights advocate, if I'm not treating

everyone as a human rights advocate, I'm not going to be a human rights advocate. I'm going to be a human rights advocate.

with respect. If I'm not, you know, ensuring human dignity, the human dignity of every

individual, if my interactions are not permeated by human decency, then I'm, you know, I'm not

leading in the way that I need to lead. So I believe human rights starts at home. That's how

I act, which is most important. And also self-leadership, as you talk about it, is also

about self-care. I think very much about in this moment, when I look at the enormity of the

geopolitical shifts and the other things that each of us are holding for the climate crisis,

the inequality crisis, the global pandemic. I, you know, I think the ability to ensure that we're

both physically and mentally well is really critical. I mean, the human rights defenders

across the world have taught me that being well, both physically and mentally is the ultimate

action. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing.

It's the ultimate act of political empowerment in most countries of the world. And it's the

ultimate act of, you know, women's empowerment as well. So I will be well, both physically and

mentally. And that means I'll invest in self-care. I'll, you know, I've developed techniques around

that. When I go on mission, I have a toolbox of techniques. I'm a regular meditator. So I'll use

that as a, as a, you know, daily or weekly practice. But I'll also, you know, I've also,

I learned to recognize emotional signals in my body, to use the wisdom of the body, as well as

my mind to stay safe in any particular circumstance and know that I'll be okay. Recognize how I'm

feeling and adjust for that. So I, yeah, I can't stress enough the importance of, you know, self-care

as a component of self-leadership. And particularly in this moment, because our movements for change

will only ever be as a result of self-care. And so I think that's a really important thing.

Strong as every one of us who makes up that movement. And for me, that's why I choose to

be physically and mentally well. It's a brilliant answer, Elizabeth. Thanks for sharing that. And I

love your, your thoughts on a, on a toolbox of techniques. And we often hear, you know, meditation

on as a, as a common trait. But as you said, if the ultimate empowerment is being physically and

mentally well, isn't it? It's an incredible thing to start with every day. And I love the way you

described that. We see leaders are really good at that. And I think that's a really good thing.

We're conscious of how they positively impact others in their environment. And you just described

that you're doing that on a global scale. But how do you think about that on a daily basis? You gave

a bit of that in your last answer, but does that resonate as well? Yeah, definitely. You, as a

leader, you've got the responsibility to, yeah, to ensure that those that you're working with,

firstly, that they're treated respectfully. I mean, I do a lot of work and deep examinations

of culture, from big global multinationals, to militaries, to police forces, to, you know,

orchestras and whatever. And some of the toxic behavior I see, particularly from leadership,

has such an outsized impact with, with people, actually. And actually, just in relation to that,

Luke, I just wanted to maybe just read just a letter, which a man that I recently

came across, and I think it's a really good one, which is, I think it's a really good one,

on one of these deep examinations brought to a storytelling. So what I do in organizations is I

try to take the lived experience of individuals directly to the heart of power, so to the CEO

of the leaders of the organization. And this individual had been relentlessly bullied over

about a year, he tried to speak out, he tried to get support, but nothing was really forthcoming.

And indeed, it wasn't until,

he was able to tell his story directly to the CEO, that he managed to get some respite. But I'd just

like to just read to you what, I asked them to bring, you know, to tell their story in a deeply

human way, but also to bring any, you know, collateral information that they might have.

And this man brought a letter from his young daughter that she'd written him on Father's Day,

which was a couple of months before.

And this is what the letter says. It says,

Dear Daddy, I love you always and forever.

Dear Daddy, oh my God, where do I begin? You're my knight in shining armor,

the joy to my life and the love in my life. I don't think that in all my 15 years of being alive,

I've ever met someone as brave as you. I know that life's been really tough lately for you at work,

and that some very sad things have happened. But what you always need to know is,

that I'm always here for you, and we will always get this through this together.

I remember when I was younger, we'd go to the beach and let the waves crash up against us.

They were so powerful, but not as powerful as you. I'd be scared, but before those waves could reach me,

you would scoop me up into your arms, the place where I was always safe.

That was the day that I realized you could always protect me.

And the day I realized that I was safe.

And the day I realized that I could always protect you.

would always protect you and i i think it's a beautiful example of just how you know bullying

in a workplace so how you act as a leader in your workplace what type of impact that that can have

not just on the individuals in your workplace but all the people that they're connected to as well

including that beautiful young daughter who wrote that letter yeah thank you for sharing that and

and we're really passionate about that too in the work we do you just see that if your work

environment is unhappy and stressful it has an enormous amount of flow and effects as you just

pointed out so beautiful what a beautiful letter from a 15 year old daughter by the way how how

amazing is is that but you know she's picking up on the stress of her dad and that's affecting his

home life and affecting his relationships and and you know to to not understand uh i was speaking

to to ruddick sally on this who was the founder of swiss and and he was just describing the only

thing that kept him up at night was the fact that he was not able to do his job and he was not able

to do his job and he was not able to do his job and he was not able to do his job and he was not able to do his job

was how happy the people were that were in his environment and what else could i do to make

people more happy because that's the responsibility of leadership isn't it is exactly like that and so

to uh to share that conversation is really powerful i appreciate it we wanted to talk

to you about creating i wanted to talk to you about creating and sharing a vision you've

got a global vision it seems for uh the uh conversation around gender inequality how

have you gone about sharing and creating that vision um i

i think for me um sharing the vision is about engaging people's both their heads and their

hearts i mean what i learned early on is you could share all the data which supported your vision my

vision is for a much more gender equal world um a kinder more compassionate world a prosperous

world for sure but one where everyone has a place everyone's valued um treated with dignity and

respect and to get people along with you and to get people along with you and to get people along

on that journey often means that they need to shift now i can put all the data about you know

the gender inequality stats you know women are paid less they experience more violence they

sexually harassed more all that data that will never be enough what i need to do is engage people's

hearts and i do that through the storytelling i mean just that story that i told then and read

verbatim that letter it's the stories of

human harm that are happening in this moment if i can engage you on that then i think you will

more be more likely to step up with me on my vision of a gender equal world because change

usually happens not by taking a giant leap it happens by adding adding to continuing adding

more all these small nudges and really about healing the part of the world that touches you

that's around you and to do that and to do that and to do that and to do that and to do that and

to do that you have to get proximate to the issues and listen to the stories or what i what i call the

other voices the voices that are outside usually your remit so to get people to come on board with

my vision i'm helping them get proximate to the human harm i'm investing in storytelling i'm

engaging both their heads and their hearts and then helping them see what part they can play

in creating um you know the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the

creating this more more gender equal world and actually i i love the work um that i think it's um

just trying to remember uh the guy who wrote the um uh a humor kai it was he's written a lot but

his new book was on the kindness pandemic and he said there look if we dare to dream of a more

loving country a kinder more compassionate more cooperative more respectful

um country then there's really only one way to turn that dream into reality and that is that

each of us must live our lives of if as if that country already exists because if enough of us

do that then that country will exist and and i love to you know kind of move along in in that

vein to help others see that if we just shift a little bit and live in that way then we will create

this vision of a more gender equal yeah australia family nation actually world yeah beautifully said

and you know in a world where we just experience so much negativity in terms of mainstream media

it's a it's a there's just a little acts of kindness to share them and to take that to your

daily uh practice wherever it is isn't it it's the small little things whoever you interact with

uh you can have a huge impact curiosity is where we hear a lot elizabeth from leaders we talk to

and through curiosity it's how they continue to learn and learn and learn and learn and learn and

grow does that uh appeal to you as well yeah absolutely we've got to be curious about the

world and suspend judgment um that's why coming back to those techniques we talked about um the

body wisdom the meditation or whatever um it was victor frankel i think who said between stimulus

and response there's a space and it's in that space that i really i mean he said it more profoundly

than this but that i really get to choose who i am

that i can choose freedom and and so for me when i'm engaged in conversations as well when i get

curious about things i don't jump jump to judgment quickly i try to keep that space open to remain

curious um and really you know learn because the world's so complex um so fascinating in this moment

with everything that's happening i mean yeah sometimes

deeply distressing but also fascinating because with change comes opportunity so let's get curious

about that um and let's get intentional and for me also let's remain optimistic and hopeful

yeah beautiful hope is an act of revolution in this moment i think so i hang on to that

yeah beautifully said again um you know communicating with clarity is another common

trait we see of leaders and and clearly you've got a great skillet

doing that on a message that you know is one that you're really purposefully trying to

create a difference and have you gone about communicating that message with clarity

um i think i'm emotionally attached to the message so it makes it easier for me to communicate it

um with some clarity and also you know hopefully when i speak it's not just liz broderick speaking

it's liz broderick fueled by the thousands of instances

of human suffering and inequality that i've borne witness to so that what's that's what makes me

powerful that's what makes me clear and articulate on this message and um even though you know

sometimes i don't feel at all powerful what i've come and often i'm just have no power at all i'm

just thinking of a situation i was in a refugee camp in greece on the isle of lesbos the moria

camp talking to a man who was a refugee who was a refugee who was a refugee who was a refugee who was a

you know refugees who come from such you know problematic situations who'd experienced huge

sexual violence on their journeys into this refugee camp and they were keen that i engage with

you know european nations to change their migration policies and refugee policies i mean i was

absolutely powerless to actually create any change there but i realized if you can you know kind of

if you can infuse into yourself a sense of inner power then that radiates um and you know it it helps

empower others as well so i might be powerless to change a nation state's immigration policy but i

can actually infuse myself by feeling powerful and then how i turn up and bear witness to these

stories i can do it in a way which radiates power that matters um so i think it's really important to

so coming back to small moments and techniques like that i think is the things that i've learned

across my my life yeah and you express it in an incredibly uh clear and purposeful way

how important has collaboration been we we heard about the champions of change collaboration which

has been a great part of your history clearly it's something you've identified as really

important to you collaboration's key um because everyone believes that they have the right view

um and

none of us has that you know you know there's so many different perspectives so i think the ability

to what i call build bridges of understanding through those techniques like don't assume in

ill intent offer up if you're challenged about something in your own view offer up what what's

concerning you to others because that gives them something to latch on to um so i think those types

of techniques are techniques where you can start to build collaboration because

those solutions that are owned by many are so much more powerful than a solution owned by one

yeah beautifully said again uh who's been the greatest leader in your life

i've been so blessed to have you know to have a life that at different times has touched on

you know wonderful leaders in so many different walks of life so leaders who have positional

power but those who don't have positional power are the ones who are the most powerful

i mean i've learned so much from young people as well um and starting with my parents i mean i just

feel every day so blessed about the family that i was born into also the country that i was born

into so um yeah rather than maybe identifying individuals it's you know those leaders who have

been compassionate who are humble who are curious who are courageous um you know wherever i find

them uh you know in not just here in australia as well but in different nations across the world

i'm particularly thinking of a woman in ethiopia that i recently met who when i asked her you know

how she created change because she was a leader in her nation she said look liz i never forget that

when i look out on the african plains i realize that a tree so she'll be looking for a tree she

said that started with a seed and then some of the trees that she was looking for she said that

and then some sun came and drought might have ravaged that seedling at the beginning she said

but what i've come to understand is that i'll do my part and i know that you'll do yours and that's

together we'll create change so i also remind myself that i'm not carrying this you know

responsibility for creating a gender equal world by myself i'm just a small microcosm of an ecosystem

of change i'll do my part and i know that you'll do yours and that's together we'll create change

i know that you'll do yours yeah and that's uplifting i think yeah thanks for sharing that

yeah i love those qualities that you spoke about too elizabeth you know finding people

in the leadership that have got that care and empathy and courage and all those traits uh

you know what we see modern leadership looking like in such a healthy way and while we love

sharing these stories and hearing you express that so clearly is a really powerful message

again i'm in the in the spirit of collaboration we just see now leaders value this in

uh in such a strong way and clearly what you're doing globally in this space is there anyone that

comes to mind you think god if i could collaborate with that person on this particular part of your

life or another area of passion it might be you know sing with mick jagger for all i know but has

there been anyone you thought you'd like to collaborate with that would make a difference

um well you know the leaders that i um aspire to even here in in australia i mean people like

june oscar um you know senior indigenous elder who i've done a lot of work with but she's taught

me so much about walking in a way that you know with deep connection to land and culture and

country um so people like that as as i said young people i'm deeply connected with a lot of young

men who and i'm thinking about one um called um now with cena who just has won the human rights

medal for really bringing

the largest um group of uh young children from afghanistan he brought them here to australia but

i just saw how he led through that evacuation and whatever never giving up um but always you know

always believing that it was possible so leaders like that i mean there's so many people that i

come across in everyday life i mean i'm thinking another one katherine smith who was a woman who

was um lived with such extreme

violence and i met her as she was going through a trial which was to bring her husband um to

account for his actions and he was he was found guilty and sent to jail but i just saw her courage

and leadership as she was going through that trial every day fronting up in front of her violent

partner and giving evidence so it's people like that um so from those that are not well known to

some that are well known but yeah

every one of them i've learned something through us as i've traversed my way through life

and i've learned an enormous amount today elizabeth from our conversation and i love the way you

express it with such great passion but not in a way that is shameful as well it feels like you are

bringing people along in the conversation and you know i understand i come from uh you know

incredibly different background but with a curious mind about wanting to uh to learn more about this

and so thank you so much for for sharing your incredible story and the amazing work you're

doing here in australia and around the globe

it's an amazing contribution thanks for your time

thanks very much luke i've loved chatting with you so yeah wonderful thanks so much

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