A Listener Production.
G'day, it's Luke Darson.
The idea of self-improvement and leadership both on and off the field
has been a lifelong passion of mine.
With one of my oldest friends, we created a leader collective
and have had the privilege of working with thousands of leaders
in education, sport, industry and the arts
that have helped shift to what we see as the 21st century style of leadership
where everyone has a voice.
In this podcast, we hear stories from these iconic leaders.
Eddie Jones was born in Burnie, Tasmania
to a Japanese mother and an Australian father.
Eddie's lifelong dedication to the sport of rugby union
began at Mattreville Sports High
playing alongside the legendary Ella Brothers.
His playing career included 147 first grade games for RAM
where he can represent in New South Wales on 13 occasions.
His working life started as a teacher and school principal
before transitioning into a professional rugby coaching career
that has seen him at the highest level of international rugby union
for more than 25 years.
Including stints as the national coach of Australia,
South Africa, Japan and currently as head coach of English rugby.
Eddie has coached at four rugby world cups
reaching the final on three occasions
as well as a win as an assistant in the 2007 world cup
with the South Africans.
He's an author including his latest book
Eddie Jones Leadership Lessons from a Life in Rugby.
He's married to his Japanese born wife Hiroko
and they have a daughter Chelsea.
Eddie, it's an incredible life that you've had.
It's an extraordinary job.
It's been a journey of leadership.
I really appreciate you joining me today.
Nice to be here, Luke.
Thanks for your time.
Now, you start to me and I've really enjoyed reading in preparation for this
but you strike me as a lifelong learner, a constant self-improver.
Where does that come from within you?
Well, I really don't know.
Yeah, I was lucky.
I was brought up in eastern suburbs of Sydney.
Yeah, we were a working class family.
Sport was the way to, as a half Japanese, half Australian.
Yeah, I was quite unusual back then.
Yeah, I remember the primary class I was in,
there was about six Aboriginal boys, an Egyptian boy and myself
and everyone else was Anglo-Saxons.
So you had to find a way to be part of the group
and the only way I could be part of the group was being good at sports.
So, yeah, I tried to be good at rugby union,
tried to be good at cricket.
And maybe that experience then led me to always want to keep improving.
Yeah, and you've been lucky enough to play at the highest level
and I've been lucky enough to play a little bit and coach.
You're so privileged to be in this role and you want to keep improving
and you want to keep giving the players the best experience you can.
Eddie, I want to go to November 2019.
It's the World Cup semi-final.
You coach England to a famous win over...
the legendary All Blacks
and you've since described it as close to sporting perfection as it gets
and then seven days later, painful loss to South Africa in the final.
Can you take us through what's that like as a leader?
You know, the learnings, the joy of being close to perfect
and then I suppose the pain at the end of it all.
How do you process that when you look back?
Yeah, I go through it every day, mate.
You still think about...
You still think about that regularly?
Oh, how I could have done that week better
because, you know, to beat New Zealand, you've got to be at your best
and you know then to win the final, you've got to be close to your best
and the challenge of coaching is always when you've got a team really humming
and it takes a bit out of them to be right at their best, you know,
when everything's working well, to get them particularly...
particularly in the English rugby environment where the next day,
you know, everything's like we're the gods of rugby, you know,
and the players, unfortunately, they're human, they hear that
and to try to bring them down and get them back up, I wasn't able to do
and if I had my time again, I'd try something a little bit different
but I don't know whether it'll work, you know,
and that's always a challenge of coaching at this level.
You know, you've got to get them right but when you're in a tournament,
you want to be about 98% for the semi and 100% for the final as close as you can.
And the beauty of sitting there talking to you now is that you've reloaded again
and you're on the path to the next World Cup, you know,
a couple of years away from the journey but you're really systematic
about the way that you coach and methodical about learnings
and resetting a vision, you have to ask yourself first whether or not
you felt like you were up for that challenge but you mentioned it earlier,
the window now from criticism to, and the English media are renowned at it,
I mean, we see it here in Australia, it's brutal, I think it's got out of hand
almost crazy, we've got huge issues with our senior coaches back here
and the scrutiny they face has, I think, gone out of control
but England's another level, Eddie, they come for you in ways often uneducated,
even someone who doesn't follow, I can see what you're doing,
you're rebuilding, you're giving younger players an opportunity,
you have to go back to go forward, really.
That makes sense but how do you deal with that pressure,
how do you, you know, that constant pressure that comes your way?
The good thing that experience is getting old that gives you
is that you understand it really doesn't matter, like, you know,
you've got a job to do, rebuilding a team at the international level,
like it is at any level, is difficult, particularly when the expectation
is that you keep winning, you know, there's always,
you don't want it but there's, generally speaking,
a bit of a performance.
There's a bit of a performance dropout where you get the gap
between the older players who are sometimes declining
and the younger players aren't quite ready and you get the team
at its best when you get that right mix and we're a little bit away from that
so, you know, the beauty of being a bit older is that I don't listen to it,
I don't read it, I don't know it, even though I ring my mum,
she's 97 now, she's in Sydney, she reads everything and she said,
is it true what they said about you, you're going to get the sack?
So I get that every morning, I ring her.
You know, so you still hear it but I just get on with it
and literally I just laugh about it now and, you know,
I've got a job to do, I'll do it as well as I can
and if people decide I'm not good enough then I'll do something else, mate.
And it doesn't penetrate, I mean, that sounds easy when you say it like that
but in reality, you know, you have to front up at press conferences,
you have to answer these questions, I mean, some of it's craziness
and stupid and it's aimed to try and get a reaction out of you,
that's really what a lot of journalists are trying to do.
They're sophisticated in trying to see if they can unravel you at stages
but you've really got to the level where, you know,
apart from a call from mum, you can brush it aside.
Ah, well, it's always there, mate.
Yeah, the reality is it's there and you think about it, you know,
I woke up at four this morning thinking about the team, you know,
so you're thinking about it, you think, you know, sometimes you do think
what they're saying, is it right, is there some truth to it
and sometimes you've got to try.
You've got to pick out because there are some good bits there
but I think we've got a pretty good plan and I know, you know,
the people, one of which is Neil, you know, we feel like we're
in a good position even though the external results doesn't seem
like that so we've just got to keep plugging away, mate,
keep chipping away at the stone.
I wasn't going to go to you but I need to go back to the Ella brothers
and your school has produced some serious athletes in rugby
and rugby unions.
Can you just describe for those who maybe don't follow your code
as closely, they're legendary icons, the Ella brothers, aren't they?
Yeah, no, three Ella boys.
I remember going to the first kindergarten class, first day
and there's three Aboriginal boys sitting there and no one knew
what they were to become.
You know, they changed the rugby world, changed the Australian fortune
in rugby and Mark particularly, who was the most driven of the three,
captain of Australia when he was 25, went on a Grand Slam tour
to England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, scored a try and each try,
captain at 25, retires at 26.
Yeah, they were like, well, for the Aussie rural supporters,
they were like the Cracker brothers.
You know, they could do anything with the ball.
They had this innate sense of being able to find each other on the field
and they just changed the way the game was played from being quite
It was a kicking field position game to be this free-flowing ball retention,
ball movement type game.
Twelve siblings sleeping on the floor of that house just around the corner
from where you grew up and you write about it beautifully in your book
but the field of sport and what that did for them and their family
and what they passed on was extraordinary.
I wanted to sort of transition.
You've been someone who's constantly sought out learning opportunities
and sharing of information.
Head coach of English Rugby, you've had access to iconic coaches,
Sir Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger, Pep Guardiola and Gareth Southgate
Have you picked up a pattern?
Is there some consistent behaviours that you see from the great leaders
you've been involved with?
Yeah, I think there is, mate.
And I think they've all got a very clear vision about how they want
the team to operate and then they're really good at,
in each team environment, understanding what to prioritise
and what not to prioritise.
I think the second big thing is that they're always good judges
of talent and character and I wouldn't separate talent and character.
I'd almost put them together.
And then thirdly, they've got an insatiable appetite to keep winning.
Yeah, it's a fascinating summation that clearly you've put some thought into
and you have reached out beyond the sporting arena and I'm fascinated.
You've struck up a friendship with Tadashi.
In IE, I hope I pronounced that correctly, the founder of Uniqlo.
And for those that aren't aware, Uniqlo is close to the biggest retailer
in the world, maybe behind the giant Zara in Spain.
But it went from literally zero to a current, I think his personal net worth
Now, you've spent some time with Tadashi.
What lessons have you taken from his extraordinary story?
Nothing's impossible, mate.
Yeah, he started off running a small,
retail store in Western Tokyo and he had this dream to be the biggest
casual maker of clothes in the world.
And in 20 years or whatever it is, I think he's, at one stage,
they were number one.
I think last year they got to number one.
I remember I went and did a bit of a lecture for their employees
and I finished and it was, you know, it was quite an open,
And he got up and he was so, again,
so relentless about wanting them to keep driving, keep being better.
And, you know, I was lucky enough to coach Japan as well.
And we were able to go to a World Cup.
They hadn't won a World Cup game for 24 years and we win,
we beat South Africa.
And so it shows you if you've got a dream and you're prepared to work hard,
you're prepared to try to find,
a way to be slightly different that you can,
you can achieve great things in this world.
I love the overlap, Eddie, between, you know,
sport and the commercial world.
You've bridged that gap a lot and you've consulted with,
with big firms along the journey as well and done lots of work in that space.
I mean, are you always open to that learning experience?
I mean, I suppose when you have access to leaders like that and their stories,
has it been really valuable for you along the way?
Yeah, I think just reinforcing, I think, you know,
when you're involved in sport and as a coach,
you're always doubting yourself.
I wake up this morning and I'm thinking, yeah,
am I good enough to coach England?
And that's the reality.
I think most coaches are like that.
And I think most successful people are like that.
They doubt themselves a fair bit,
but they also then,
then have a belief that they can do something.
I reckon it's this intriguing mix of,
and then trying to reach,
out to find a little bit better information.
Cause there's always smarter people out there.
There's always more than you and that's the challenge to keep finding them.
And I love that you're open enough and it's true,
I think there's probably categories of people that don't,
that mix of self doubt and that drive then to want to get better,
even when you've achieved,
people would find that staggering.
Eddie Jones is the pinnacle of sport has had success everywhere.
You've gone every organisation you've touched has got better,
you still wake up some mornings and think,
am I good enough?
that still happens daily.
And then you look at someone like Federer,
who's been the best tennis player for maybe the last 20 years,
still has a tennis coach.
why would a guy like him need a tennis coach?
It just goes to show you,
there's always a way to get better.
and if you've got that approach,
then there's no limit to what you can do.
I love one of the,
the quotes in your book.
and I'm going to read it back to you.
If I was running a business now,
the first person I would employ would be a learning expert.
The pressing question for me is always,
how can I create a better learning environment?
Can you expand on why that's so,
so important for you?
I just think particularly,
coming from an era where I grew up,
we were told what to do and you were happy,
you're quite happy to follow instructions to a large extent.
But the world's now,
over the last 30 years,
the changes in the world have been remarkable.
and part of that is that I think that everyone who's involved in a high performance
organisation now wants to be a contributor.
They don't just want to be told.
So the ability to create an environment where people have the opportunity to learn,
where people have the opportunity to voice their opinion is just so important.
we've been lucky enough with England over the last period of time,
to have Neil Craig involved with us.
He was a very successful Adelaide Crows coach and,
and was involved in Australian cycling.
So he's added to that learning environment and using a guy called Doug Lemoff over the last period of time.
And I've been lucky enough to be involved in a,
a coaching get together.
It's the most fun thing I do each,
each couple of weeks.
we've got Brian Gorshin,
Ange Postakoslis,
and Matt from ACS.
this great learning environment.
So if you can role model it yourself,
you've got a great opportunity to do it in your organisation.
I wanted to mention,
mention that and a great passion of mine and my great friend,
what a witch who I grew up with and,
and the idea of connecting extraordinary leaders like you guys together.
And a leader connect is the,
is the programme,
as you mentioned the group before Luke Beveridge,
the Bulldogs coach,
Brian Gorge and Neil Craig.
I want to speak to you a lot about,
because I know he's had a big influence on you.
And the AFL world will know Neil with his incredible reputation in high
but what you have done Eddie,
and we're grateful for it.
You're inspiring lots of other people who are connecting with us to join a
programme like a leader connect.
And we've got a spreadsheet full of names from diverse backgrounds and from
from sport and from industry and from every area.
can you explain why reflecting with other leaders in forums like that is a,
is a really worthwhile thing in your mind?
I reckon in the most common way,
it's like alcoholics,
you get in there,
all the coaches give you,
and you can share every story about what's not going right,
where you'd like a bit of help.
and all the coaches,
because we're non-competitors and because we're all,
really want to learn,
they share what they've done.
And you might just find a different nuance way to,
to handle a problem that you've got as well as,
as provide just a forum to have a bit of,
we all started sport cause we loved it.
like I was looking at the AFL,
you lose three games now and the coach's heads on the chopping block.
So it's so serious now that they have the opportunity just to have a bit of
fun and talk about how it is.
It's just fantastic as well as being a great learning medium.
And Matt does a great job.
that's what that can do for people.
And you described it beautifully.
And I suppose historically Eddie,
us Aussie males in particular,
weren't great at,
at opening up and you've adapted your coaching brilliantly the next
And you are incredibly vulnerable as a coach,
you put your hand up regularly and you've done that in,
in post-teen meetings and said,
that's mine today.
I didn't prepare you well enough,
which is a remarkable evolution,
for someone who's been at it as long as you have.
And I suppose that's,
that's one of the things we see has been really beneficial,
You combine the fun part,
but also with the support part.
And it sounds like from the outside that you do challenge each other as
well on the way you think.
it's a pretty powerful medium,
it's fantastic mate.
and you look at the,
the people involved in it,
in completely different experiences,
like Ang is in Celtic now in,
the most intense rivalries there is in world sports.
Luke's looking out,
trying to rebuild the Bulldogs again.
I don't know how old Brian is.
I can remember as a kid watching him coach Sydney Kings,
up and down the sideline,
ranting and raving.
And he's still doing a great job.
And there's a great Twitter snap of him coaching the Hawks on the weekend,
where he's still got that passion and that unbelievable desire to win.
Yeah, that's right. I'm sure he tells you about it. But you call him your truth teller and it's
a role that you really seek out, having someone, and he's a pretty direct human being, Neil Craig,
so he challenges you along the way. Why is that so important for you at this stage of your life
to have someone like him in your world? Well, I'll tell you, mate, if I was to go back 20 years now
and I was to be given the job of Australia, the first thing I'd go and do is find a Neil Craig
because I think you always need someone there because when you're the head coach or the head
of any organisation, people are less inclined to tell you the truth and the longer you're in the
job, the less inclined they are. So there's almost like you've been in the job and you're in it
longer and you get less of the truth and you need it. You need to have the input of
other people in the organisation telling you what needs to be done. So, yeah, Neil and I have
a very simple process. Even now, I'll ring him most mornings and we'll have a chat. We'll go for
coffee every morning about seven o'clock, review the day, chat about the day ahead. Who do we need
to talk to? Who needs a bit of love? Who needs a bit more instruction? And it just sets the day in
place and he gives me feedback on how I communicate to the players, how I communicate to the coaches.
And it's just absolutely invaluable. You've modelled that in some ways and you
mentioned this. Steve Kerr is a triple NBA championship coach now with the Golden State
Warriors, was part of the Michael Jordan Chicago Bulls, got an extraordinary history. But the first
thing he did was fine. Rod Adams, I think off the top of my head is the name. He was well into his
70s now, I think, still an assistant coach and still playing that role. So it's something that
you've seen work pretty well from afar. Yeah.
I was lucky enough to have a Zoom with Ron. Yeah, I think this was last year. He was still
assistant coach and his role was completely to give Steve the truth, you know, because his
approach to coaching and Steve's approach was completely different. Steve's a very, you know,
sort of West Coast, engage everyone, make everyone happy, whereas Ron's are more fundamentals,
you know, let's coach hard. So that, again,
really great mix of philosophies, getting the right environment for the teams, obviously work
for them. And, you know, Neil does the same for us. The family support part, I wanted to ask you
about Eddie and your beautiful wife. I think you're right that in the 29 or so years of marriage,
and I'll make sure I get that right, almost all of those apart from three, you've been an
international coach. That is, you know, a lot of commitment on the road and travelling and,
I mentioned, you've coached all around the world. So to have that support must be quite
extraordinary. And then you mentioned that she's only twice asked you, challenged you on rugby
questions. It's not really her thing and she loves your passion for it. But both times it was around
people you'd employed and whether they were the right character. And you say that she was spot
on. Can you talk about that support and I suppose the intuition that she's had for you a couple of
times? Yeah, well, I think, you know, because my wife's been around,
the team all the time, she's got a sense of what's right and what's wrong. And I can always
remember with Australia, she said about one assistant coach and then she said it about
England here and she's been right both times. And she tells me she's always right. So, yeah.
And the reason we've been able to stay in marriage is because most of the time I've
agreed that she is right. It is an extraordinary support. Now, to have that for you to go on and
I'm sure that that is an incredible part of your success. One of the things I've in reading in
preparation for our chat today, you describe your philosophy is now as always being a servant to the
players that you coach. Now, that is an interesting thing. It certainly wasn't the era that I grew up
in playing. The coaches were at the top of the tree and the players were there to serve the
coaches. Why have you flipped that on its head? Oh, look, I think that's the way it is now.
You know, I think younger players, I don't know whether they're more intelligent, but they're
more cognizant of a number of issues. They're more well read. And so our job as coaches is just
to provide an environment for them to flourish. And if you look at, you know, just simply how
people are brought up now, you know, I've had a much easier life. I've had a much easier life.
My father, you know, fought for Australia, was in, you know, I remember he told me he worked in
the gold mine when he was 15, you know, and I haven't had to do any of that sort of thing. You
know, I've had a pretty good life. And my daughter, who's now 30, she's had a much better
life than I had. So every generation of people coming through have had a different life experience.
And so you've got to match your coaching,
to the life experience. But having said that, you know, when I say I'm a servant to the players,
at the end of the day, there's sometimes you've got to beat the drum. And, you know, you've got
to be relentless and non-negotiable about some things. So I think it's understanding
what you need to be negotiable about and provide an opportunity for the players to
voice their opinion and do what they think. But you've also got to be non-negotiable about the
things that are really important. And, you know, both our games,
AFL and rugby, if you're not physically equipped to handle the hottest periods of the game,
you're doing a disservice to the players. So you've got to equip them in that area.
You speak that you would always, if you could, that character in the form of grit always overrides
pure talent. Is that something that you've seen play out over your long history?
Yeah, there's no doubt about that, mate. I think that,
yeah, you've got to have that huge competitive spirit. And I think
that's a big part of it. And I think that's a big part of it. And I think that's a big part of it.
And I think that's a big part of it. And I think that's a big part of it. And I think that's a big part of it.
That's about grit. That's about staying at the task when it's tough. And of course,
you need talent to get it. You need talent to get in the yard, but then you need that
grit to keep doing it. And the good players keep doing it. And the really talented players
who haven't had that opportunity to develop that grit at a young age generally fall away.
Yeah, I concur absolutely with you. And the players that I played with that
had to work harder at a young age,
once they got there and developed the skills, they were the ones that
just were so consistent and ended up having extraordinary careers. They might've come
from a lower base, but you're right. They had to fight their way through,
eventually became some of the best players that I saw and played with.
Eddie, I want to ask you a number of questions. We generally feel as though,
as you said earlier, from your experience in leadership, there are some patterns and some
cues that are coming their way and specific traits of leaders that we're identifying. And we start
with self-leadership. We think all great leaders really have a sense of self-leadership. What does
that mean to you? I think you can't lead yourself unless you know yourself. So you've got to know
your strengths, your weaknesses. And I also think you've got to treat yourself almost like a
business. You've got to work on your strengths, keep developing your strengths, and at the same
time, understand what your weaknesses are and try to get people who are complimentary,
uh, to those weaknesses to, to build up the, the organization strengths. So that's,
that to me is, is leading yourself. Yeah. I'll write every three months,
I'll write a leadership plan for myself. Really? Yeah. Can you explain, can you explain it?
Cause I can see that in how you operate. You know, you mentioned the people that you get around you
and you target specific people with skill sets that you want, and you're pretty relentless in
going after people who you think can add to your environment. So what does that, what does a three
month lead to? Yeah.
Leadership plan look like in your world? Yeah. Just like, it's just a simple piece of paper
and I'll put it at the back of my diary. And it's just about professionally, what do I want to
achieve over the next three months? What's the key area? Like, you know, we've been working with a
forensic psychologist for the last three months about driving better relationships, better
conversation within our coaching group, and then from the coaches to the players. Um, and then
having a, a personal one as well, which might,
might involve family issues or might involve, uh, health or, or trying to get fit or what I need to
do to, to be in a better spot, to be at my best. So I try to combine those, try to review it all
the time. And sometimes it mightn't change, but sometimes there are key things that you need to
really focus on to get yourself in a better state. And you find the three month window works really
well. You never go too far. You don't have a five year plan on top of that, but update every three
No. And I think in coaching three months is getting, probably getting too long, mate.
It can be a lifetime in the world that you operate in. Uh, it is an interesting, uh,
practice that you do. I appreciate you sharing it. Um, we see leaders are now incredibly conscious
of how they positively impact others in their environment. We heard you talk about
serving the players, but beating the drum. I mean, how, how do you go about that? The
positive impact on others around you?
Oh, I think more and more again, it's, it's about,
there's a great book by, uh, Craig, he put me on the, by Xander, uh, who's, uh, he was in charge
of an orchestra, um, Ben Xander, and it's called the art of possibility. And, and it really
resonates with me that all the time you're trying to create possibilities for the players. You're
trying to create opportunities for the players to be better. You get them to see what, what they
could do. And I think if you can create good stories about that and create good conversations,
about that, and basically light their eyes up, you got a much greater chance of, of driving them
to success. Like yesterday, I had a difficult conversation with one player, um, about a
performance on the weekend where he didn't give a hundred percent effort. Um, and, and, you know,
the old school 20 years ago, you'd ring up and say, you know, you hadn't done that. You hadn't
done that. Uh, you know, and now you try to get them to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to,
to, if they did give effort, how good their game would be. Um, and at the same time, make it quite
clear that if they don't reach that effort, then, then it's going to be difficult for them to be in
the team. But I think it's that art of possibility, mate, that's just so important. It's a great book.
I'd encourage anyone, you know, anyone that's listening to your podcast would be well worth a
read, mate. Yeah. I've just written it down, the art of possibility, uh, Ben Xander. And I love,
you know, from a conductor of an orchestra,
over into the world of, uh, of English rugby, um, the leadership stories are so effective
across multiple disciplines. Creating and sharing a vision is something that, uh, we see great
leaders do. And, and you are meticulous in this from what I've read. And I, and I love the vision.
I love how open you are about it. Your vision at the moment is for England to be the best rugby team
in history. It's, it's, it's a bold, profound thing to say. How do you go about that? And
what's that like sharing that with the players? Uh, well, I think you've,
also, you, you've always got to stimulate the players to be better. Um, and, and if I was,
if I was involved in any team and I want that team to be the team that, that when you go down
the pub and you, you go down, then you don't know anyone. And there's four blokes or four people in
the corner and they're having a drink and they start talking about, about sport. You want to
be a team that you're involved in, you know? So it's then, then, then creating,
idea in their head, creating something that, that lights their eyes up and then giving them
a plan of going forward. And yeah, we're a long way away from, from being that, but there's no
reason in 18 months we can't be that team. And you speak about in 2019, it was a really
crystal clear focus on winning the world cup and on reflection, I think maybe that, you know,
after you beat the All Blacks, which as you said, extraordinary performance, but does it leave
enough breadth for, for, for possibilities? Is that why you sort of, you, you,
tweaked that again to, to, to open it up? Why not? I mean, who's to say that that group that
you're coaching now won't be the best team ever? Yeah. And it's probably more rather than being
goal orientated. And I think it's, it's almost a function of being with the team for, for a longer
period of time, more process function now. It's more about the process of how can we become the
greatest team? How can we be a team that everyone remembers? What's the sort of rugby we've got to
play? What do we need to do to get there? How do we need to operate?
On and off the field to get to that situation. So we just keep driving before, because, you know,
the attainable goal of being the greatest team is, is actually not a goal. It's, it's a, it's a,
it's a focus of, of improving all the time. And I think, you know, for a team that's been together
for a while, you need to find a new way of stimulating their, their, their quest to want
to be better. Yeah. I'm assuming if you're living a standard that is aiming to be the best ever,
it's going to be a high standard, isn't it? And as a result of that, you, you, you know,
you're going to have outstanding results. So it makes sense. Curiosity is a word that we hear
leaders talk about a lot, Eddie, and it's something I, I see in you all the time and,
and through curiosity approach to learning and development, you had a great story that I wasn't
aware of the Gonzaga Bulldog story. Can you share that with us? Because it's a, it's a great example
of curiosity and something that's really, you know, been something you've implemented pretty
on the back of it. Yeah. An old strength and conditioning coach that was with you with Japan
is now, he's in a, he's in another team now. And we, we chat regularly about, about how can we
improve the training week? You know, he's a very bright, intelligent guy. And to me, the challenge
of the training week at the moment is always the Monday. Like particularly now where the game's
got more intense, it's got harder, the physical requirements to the game, the seasons are
longer. Monday's the day that, and we have some research on it, that if, if your players are
feeling pretty good at the end of the Monday, you've got a good chance for good performance
that week. So, you know, and Monday's the day where it's, it's a routine day. It's a big routine
day, isn't it? You got to, you got to review the previous game, feed in the next game, the skills
are light. And if you, and, and maybe the concentration of the players is not where it
Um, so we, we, we were just talking and, and we ended up, he read something about Growth
Monday, this concept of Growth Monday. And he had, he had a meeting with the performance
director of the university. And then we ended up having a Zoom together and just, cause
they, they had really engaged this Growth Monday where the players had come in, they'd
run the day. Um, and they, so at the end of the day, they were inspired about the rest
Um, so we, we've tried it with, with England. Um, so the players, they, they, we've got them
in four groups. We've got a leader of each group. They've got to decide their timetable
for the day. Um, so they decide the timetable of the day. There are, there are some non-negotiable
things they've got to do. And also within those non-negotiables, there's some scope for
them to, to put a bent on it, to, to decide, for instance, what skills they do on that
day. So we've gone down that, that, that, uh,
pathway. Um, and we feel like it's, it's the right one, but again, we're going to change
it again. Cause again, I think that one of the other things that's happened now, Luke,
is that young players like change in the schedule. Yeah. Previously, you know, 30 years
ago, everyone liked the same thing, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, you know, you, you go
just like the way your parents used to make your lunch. Like I used to have like cheese
and tomato on Monday, cheese and beetroot Tuesday.
Cheese and Vegemite Wednesday, you know, people like change now. So we've, we've gone
down that. Now we're looking at the, at the new, new way of growing that Monday. But I
think the concept's right.
Yeah. And I love that you found a story out of a small university in Washington that,
uh, in the NCAA, the National College Athletic Association, where this unit had no right
to have a championship level basketball team, 68 teams, I think in the NCAA. And, and they
consistently made finals, got incredibly close to, to winning it against all odds. And,
and, you know, you're learning and that curiosity, what are they doing? How do I find out about
it? And, and you being the person you are is, is onto that and implementing that straight
away, which is a, is a great lesson of how you go about it. You're communicating with,
with clarity. It, it seems a great strength of yours, Eddie, and I know you review it
regularly. How have you gone about, um, your communication with, with clarity?
Uh, well, I'm lucky I'm Australian up here, mate.
Oh, I can understand what I say.
Uh, no, no. Well, the, the, the big thing we've really worked with this forensic psychologist,
um, Natasha, Nash, Nash, the, the soul home has written a book called pin code. Again,
it's a, it's a, it's a good read and it's really been focusing. She's got an ABC communication,
you know, approach, uh, body language, uh, communication. And, and so,
I don't think you can spend enough time on communication. Yeah. Uh, the great, you know,
when you go back to the great coach, I think all in their way, they can tell a good story.
Yeah. And again, you know, if you can create a good story, people are going to remember what
you said. And then if they got to remember what you said, they got a chance to do it.
So I don't think you can ever spend enough time in becoming a better communicator. Like,
Alex Ferguson, you go, you meet him and it's just one,
series of story after story, you know, and he tells the Scottish pro and half the time you
can't understand what he, what he said, but you get the, you get the intent of what he's saying.
And, and I think, you know, that longevity of him was a result of him being able to create
an environment where people saw pictures of what they were going to do, because you're always
trying to create pictures in people's head. Yeah. And adapting that, as you said, to this
new generation who really think differently, communicate differently, uh, like change in
routine. And I, and I know you've been really specific on how, uh, you keep evolving that
message, uh, with the change in generation. Uh, collaboration is something we see leaders
really passionate about now, and you can hear it in all of your work. How, how important
is collaboration to you? Yeah, well, I think it's a, it's a process. Um, and I think we can't
ever look again as a, as a goal. It's something you just got to keep working on. Yeah. Again,
with having four assistant coaches now, when I coached Japan, which was,
only 10 years ago, I had one assistant coach. Yeah. And so collaboration was having a drink
at the bar, going over the, the training plan for the next day. And now you've got four coaches.
Um, and we're probably one short. We probably need five. Cause I think that's the other thing
that's changed Luke. And I'm sure it's the same if AFL and I know, yeah, it's one of the issues
of AFL at the moment that the, the, the soft caps being cut and, and players want individual
attention. Yeah. They want individual attention. Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's, I think
individual data, they want individual attention. Yeah. One of the NBA coaches we were talking
about was saying that, uh, that now, you know, the analysts, they can't be blokes with, with,
uh, you know, glasses and who eat donuts all day and a bit chubby. They've got to be guys who can
not only do the analyst work, but they can get on the court and shoot one-on-one with the players
because that's what players want. So with bigger coaching staff, you need, you need again, that
collaborative process of, of right. This is the way we're going to play, uh, making sure that the
messages are clear, making sure that there's no overlap in what we're telling the players because
the players have got a lot more voices talking to them now. And I love, uh, you know, reading
about your work, Eddie, you coach the English rugby team, but you, you are a full-time coach.
And so you'll go back to Japan to, to the club level that you coach. You've got the
strange amount of criticism. It seems in the English media,
around that being some sort of conflict, but your logic sound, isn't it? I mean, I'm evolving
and challenging myself and constantly, and everyone understands that there is a sharing
of information, but clearly nothing that is, uh, affecting anything apart from positively
the English environment. Are you surprised that people don't, don't get that, that it's not more
widely understood? It's, it's crazy, mate. It's really crazy. I think, you know, the more you give,
the more you get back. That's the thing I've always learned. And I always remember I had this
great coach, Bob Dwyer, who won the 91 World Cup with Australia. And he always used to say to me,
it still resonates in my head. He said, the best coaches are the best players. And so the more you
expose yourself to working with the best players, the more you learn. Like I was lucky enough to
work with Bowdoin Barrett last year. Um, and I can tell you, I learned more from him than he learned
from me. Um, and, and, you know, so you want to expose yourself to those situations and you want
to keep learning. Um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
and if you don't do that, if you just stay in your own insulated pocket, all you know is, is what's
in that pocket. You've got to get out, you've got to share, and you've got to take a risk sometimes
of sharing information to get better information back. I love it. Uh, love that, uh, incredible
sense that you've got on, on that. And we're seeing it with the, your openness and, uh, and
joining the Leader Connect group we spoke about before, but asking these two questions of all the
ladies and I, I love doing it. I'll be fascinated with, with your response. Who's been the greatest
leader in your life?
Uh, that's a, that's a pretty good question, mate. Uh, I've never really thought about
that. Um, probably one of the person I admired the most was Bob Hawke and Ian Chappell. Uh,
both because, uh, and I say this in a good way, really Aussie, uh, were bold in what
they did, um, and led, led people. Like, yeah, I love Ian Chappell was to me, the way
he resurrected Australian cricket and did it his own way. I can always remember I was
lucky enough. I was there for his first test as captain. You know, he comes out there in
those days, you know, cricket was quite a, uh, yeah, everyone, everyone followed a fairly
strict protocol and he came out as Australian captain, had his shirt undone to there. They,
they had the new ball. I remember the first time he threw it, it bounced the mid off,
you know, and that was seen as a, as, as, as sacrilegious in those days. And he went
about developing this Australian team that did it their own way. Um, and I love that.
And Bob Hawke, you know, I'm probably on the other side of the, the political spectrum
to a large degree, but the way he went about, you know, is this rough, tough, uh, union
leader that came about and led Australia to prosperity. You know, those sort of people
to me really inspired me. And I always wanted to feel like, you know, I'd, I'd have a sense
of, I'm going to do it my way and I'm going to make, make a better place for the people
that I'm involved in. And if I've been any way, been able to do that, then it's probably
I love the answers. And I know you're, you're a passionate, uh, cricket lover and, uh, and,
and study that, that closely. And the, it was a different era, wasn't it? The charisma
of someone in a prime minister of Bob Hawke and, you know, scaling a beer and anyone who,
uh, who, uh, is a bum. If you don't give someone a day off after,
after the Australia's Cup win, I mean, you, you can't imagine it, can you, uh, in 2022,
but he did it his way. There's no, no doubt about it. Um, if you could collaborate with
anyone in the world on any area of your life, Eddie, and clearly you've got specific interests
in the world of rugby, but would there be someone that springs to mind that you'd love
to collaborate with?
I reckon there's, there's two coaches in football up here that are completely different, but
they're both so driven, like peppered man city.
Like he's this tactical guru, you know, they play in a, in a organised, but free sense.
Um, and then you've got Klopp, who's at Liverpool, who's this, like, they play heavy metal pressing.
Yeah. They push it. He's, he's all about involving the crowd. I'd love to have those
two guys in my back staff. It'd be, uh, it'd be a fascinating combination. So, and look,
I love, uh, Eddie, the fact that we, we threw the world of streaming services,
and we get to hear from Pep Guardiola behind the scenes, and you hear from Jurgen Klopp
in ways you haven't before. I mean, is it, are you watching that content? Are you picking
up bits and pieces? And do you think that's a, it's a good thing? I mean, I've said this
before, but Vince Lombardi is, uh, the legendary NFL coach. There's only so many tiny snippets
of, you know, there's been a hundred books written about him, but we didn't hear a lot
of it in his own voice. Do you, do you like the fact we're hearing more of, of you guys
while you're still in the chair?
Yeah, I think it's fantastic, mate. Now, again, I think it, it shows you that, that
information now is, is not owned by people. It's owned by the world. And so you've got
to, it really reinforces the fact that you've got to keep learning. Because as soon as you
do something good, someone shows it, someone talks about it, someone dissects it. So you've
got to keep finding some way of doing it better. And a lot of times it's going back to go forward.
Um, but you've got to find new ways of doing it.
Well, if you want to keep your learning journey going, uh, you can start with Eddie Jones's
book. It's called Leadership Lessons from My Life in Rugby. I really enjoyed it. There
were so many great practical takeaways and written superbly. And if you're listening
to Eddie, you get a sense of, uh, that incredible desire to keep improving. It's been a great
pleasure to catch up with you. I really appreciate your time. And I, I can't wait to see the
coming, uh, 18 months of English rugby. You've got a plan. Uh, you're copying it from all
angles, but I get the feeling that, uh, you've got a plan.
It's exactly on track for what you had anticipated and wish you all the best in the next period
of time. Thanks for joining us.
No, thanks Luke. And, uh, doing a great job with the podcast and with, with Matt. So I
hope it keeps going and it's been a pleasure to be with you today, mate. And go the dogs,
I love it, mate. Final note, you spent, your dad grew up in Footscray. So we've got, we've
got you on board, mate. Wait till they hear about that, uh, at, uh, Red, White and Blue
headquarters. So I, I didn't know that until we spoke just before the start. So, uh, I'm
looking forward to it.
You're one of us, Eddie. I'm, uh, and I'm finding myself, uh, wanting, uh, England to
win the World Cup too, just listening to your passion as well. So, uh, thanks again, mate.
It's been great fun.
All right. Good on you, Luke. Cheers, mate.
Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy, produced by Matt Dwyer with audio production
by Darcy Thompson. To start your leadership journey, I encourage you to go to elitercollective.com,
take our Empowering Leaders Indicator tool and understand the impact you have on your
environment. Join us at Elita to learn, lead and collaborate.