Dr Kirstin Ferguson Am On Modern Leadership Empathy And Dinosaurs

Thanks for joining me this week on the Empowering Leaders podcast.

Our special guest, Dr. Kirsten Ferguson, is a remarkable leader in every sense.

She talks today about how modern leaders lead with both their head and their heart.

And she is full of wisdom and humor.

What a great privilege it has been to catch up with Kirsten.

I'm sure you're going to enjoy it.

Big thanks to the team at Temper and their ongoing support of the Empowering Leaders podcast.

A mattress like no other at Temper.

I have had the great life experience and privilege of sleeping on Temper bedding for well over a decade.

It will change your life, literally change your life.

Fantastic group.

Thank you to Jason and the team at Temper for their support.

And Kirsten, coming up in this episode, is incredibly aligned to the work that we're doing at Alita.

Encourage you to check out our signature Alita Connect program,

where we bring together diverse leaders like Dr. Kirsten Ferguson in groups to collaborate, to lead, and to learn.

We encourage you to check.

Alita, go to alitacollective.com.

Dr. Kirsten Ferguson is an award-winning, globally recognized leader, executive coach, public speaker, company director, and writer.

With a 30-year executive career and a PhD in leadership and culture,

she is one of Australia's most prominent leadership experts.

Kirsten is changing the way the world looks at leadership,

helping people become modern leaders who can lead with both their head and their heart.

Kirsten's long list of extraordinary life experiences and achievements,

include having been previously the CEO of a global consulting firm,

senior executive at a leading corporate law firm,

and spent nearly 10 years as an officer in the Royal Australian Air Force.

Kirsten, it's a great privilege and an honor to meet you.

Thanks for joining me.

Yeah, thank you.

I'm thrilled to be here.

One of the world's most respected voices on leadership is not an overstatement by any stretch.

Can I ask you, in your words, what does modern leadership mean to you?

I think it means being able to integrate the leader that we are,

across all aspects of our life, everywhere.

So, so often you see leaders at work that think they've got to leave their heart at home,

and they just focus on KPIs and deliverables.

Whereas, I'm sure if you saw them in their private life,

they're full of empathy and humility, you would hope.

Bring it all together.

That's what being a modern leader is about, really integrating our head and heart all the time.

Yeah, and your book is brilliant, Head and Heart, the Art of Modern Leadership.

And I enjoyed last night in preparation for this, taking the head and heart leadership.

Scale and going through it, and it's fascinating, you know,

and I came out that perhaps lead with the heart a little bit more than the head.

Can you explain, you know, what it means to lead with both your head and your heart as well?

Yeah, and good on you for taking it.

I'm like, I've been blown away since the book came out only a few weeks ago.

More than 10,000 Australians have gone on and taken, and it's totally free.

So anyone can go and do it.

Just visit headheartleader.com, but what you've discovered, and I'm sure we'll talk about your

results.

If you're happy to.

Absolutely.

This idea of leading with the head and the heart, I didn't want to just make shit up,

frankly.

So I went and I am a researcher, I did a PhD in leadership, and there's 60,000 leadership

books out there on the market, which is pretty scary.

So you know, why on earth would anyone want to write another one?

And so I didn't want to make stuff up.

So the research I did with the university was to try and find what are the attributes

exactly of leading with the head and the heart, and what it came down to.

Leading with the head.

There are four of them.

One is curiosity, and we're born curious, but unfortunately, we tend to lose it the

longer we're in a job or the older we get.

Wisdom, which is all about decision making, and you and I are going to talk about wisdom

a little bit, I think, because we both, that's my lowest of the eight attributes, and I noticed

it is yours as well.

So we might do a dive into what we're doing there.

Perspective, which was the most highly correlated with being a modern leader, and that's this

ability to read a room.

And it might obviously be a physical room.

But it's more likely to be your organization or the industry you work in, your community

group, your sporting club, whatever it is.

And then capability is that real belief that you are capable at what you do.

So those four head-based attributes, that's often what we've been rewarded for at school

and at university, or in jobs, you get promoted because you can deliver on whatever it is.

You know, there's really tangible, measurable things.

But they're critically important.

But if it's all you do, you're going to fail as a leader.

Yeah.

And so you need to be able to balance those with leading with the heart.

And the four attributes of those are humility, which is, in this context, really being open

to seeking the contributions of others and being aware that you don't have all the answers,

knowing your limitations, which is harder for some than others.

Second is self-awareness.

So really being aware of the impact that you're having on others.

The third being courage, which is that real courage to stand up for what you believe in,

even in the face of pressure.

Not to do so.

And then the fourth is empathy.

And this is probably the most misunderstood because it's not pity or sympathy or compassion.

And too much empathy is a bad thing.

But it is being able to put yourself in the shoes of someone specifically quite different

to yourself.

So a lived experience outside of your own.

And the art of modern leadership is knowing which of those eight attributes are needed

as and when.

Because in any conversation or crisis or situation, you're going to need to know which of those

eight attributes are needed and when.

Because in any conversation or crisis or situation, you're going to need to know which of those

eight attributes are needed and when.

And so you need to maybe have a bucket load of humility and just a little bit of curiosity

to get through it.

Others are going to be all around your capability.

So that's the art of modern leadership.

Yeah, it's brilliant.

And I love the simplistic way that you articulated it.

It's great.

My mind was going to, I caught up with Sal Gordon, who's the principal of the Green School

in Bali, Kirsten, and they're really revolutionizing education in some ways.

And he has this belief that, yeah, we do teach and reward the head stuff really strongly.

And I think that's a really good thing.

And I think that's a really good thing.

And I think that's a really good thing.

Yeah.

If we measure empathy and we measure that, that's what the education system is about.

But can we also teach empathy?

I think we can for sure.

Can we teach self-reflection?

Can we teach emotional intelligence?

Because really we don't open our account in the education system really on those things

as a rule.

Is that something that you think we should be doing more of?

Oh, absolutely.

And we can definitely teach empathy and we can practice empathy.

It's like a muscle that you can just...

The more you expose yourself to situations that are different to your own, and I know

I volunteer at Lifeline on the phones, and every time you do a shift, you are practicing

leading with empathy because you're listening to situations that require nothing from you

except a great deal of empathy.

I've been really reassured since the books come out, the number of schools that have

got in touch, mainly for their year 11 and 12 students.

I think that's exactly the right time, if not earlier, but it's a good time to really

be showing our future leaders and our kids of today what leadership looks like because

what I really wrote about was how ingrained in us it is this notion of leadership being

the most senior person at the top of an org chart with all the power and authority.

If you think back to when we were at school, even in encyclopedias, back in the day, I

think you and I are old enough.

We remember having encyclopedias, physical hard copies of encyclopedias.

All the people in them were those monarchs or explorers or titans of industry, and generally

men and generally white men at that.

That notion of who a leader is, is still something that we're dealing with that legacy of.

I think we need to really rethink who our leaders are.

For most people, the first leaders we have are our parents.

And so many parents might not see themselves as leaders, but they most certainly are.

And so we really need to be conscious that leaders are everywhere, including amongst

our young people.

Old enough, Kirsten, to remember the door-to-door salesman selling the encyclopedias in a beautiful

leather-bound set.

There's so much to follow up on what you just said.

I want to come back to, I love your real passion for actually encouraging people to understand

everyone is a leader in their own.

But to go back to what your book is about and sounds like what your passion, the head

and heart leaders and just how worthwhile it is for us to create more head and heart

type of leaders.

And all the research is just overwhelming.

When you look at the dimensions you talk about, if people have more humility, if they're more

empathetic, if they're more self-aware, the capacity to do good in your environment, the

capacity to, you know, we know it changes people's lives when they are in an environment

at work.

Where they have a modern leader, like the way you described, with their head and the heart,

their home life is better.

They don't get sick as much.

They're more productive.

It's overwhelming, the research on why this is so important.

Are you still surprised that people don't get that correlation to investing in great

leadership becomes such a, you know, one more productive, more financial, but, you know,

overwhelmingly, it's probably the most important thing we can do.

I'm not surprised, unfortunately.

I wish, you know, there were a few more braver leaders out there.

So, I think what happens is there's a real fear of being a vulnerable leader.

And that is what a head and heart or modern leader does.

They're prepared to say, I don't have all the answers.

I know my limitations.

This is something, you know, I'm not good at, but what do you think?

Like, all of that is requiring quite a different mindset.

And for some people, that is really easy to do.

And they are the most effective leaders.

But for people who have been around a long time,

and I like to think of them a bit as dinosaurs, and we all know who they are,

they're very comfortable.

And they've succeeded, generally, in being that formal kind of leader,

even though outside of work, they might be quite different.

So, I think there's a lot of fear that's driving not changing amongst those people.

But there's also our organizations that continue to reward head-based outputs.

So, you know, if we continue to give people promotions,

and pay rises, and all of that sort of thing, based on the number of sales they have,

or how many KPIs they've ticked off, and we fail to reward those leaders

who are also demonstrating some of those heart-based attributes,

we're, of course, going to see more of the same.

So, I think progressive organizations that want modern leaders really need to make sure

that they're integrating this idea at all aspects.

They're recruiting modern leaders.

They are then promoting modern leaders.

And they're appointing modern leaders at the highest points in their organization.

I was thinking of Steve Biddulph, the legendary author,

Raising Boys, Raising Girls.

I had the great privilege on this podcast of sitting down with Steve as well.

And he shared this story, Kirsten, and it feels like a lot of your language.

And he's given talks at auditoriums around the world, a bit like you,

thousands and thousands of people at a time.

And probably a fairly big female demographic for Steve in a lot of those auditoriums.

And he said he started asking the room,

you know, to a lot of the mums that were there,

what do you want?

What do you want in a partner?

What sort of leadership do you want?

And he said it was a really interesting thing because, you know,

you get past the first, you know, Brad Pitt or Harry Styles,

whoever the most, you know, popular, you have a laugh there for a start.

But he said then these answers start coming at him really, really quickly

and in two different categories.

I want someone who cares.

I want someone who's got some empathy.

I want a partner who's present.

I want them to be fun.

But at the same time, hey, you know, I need them to be resilient.

I don't want them to be soft.

I want them to have a go.

And so he describes it as really the balance is heart, your language,

and backbone is what he talks about.

And trying to teach particularly, you know,

the males going back on the home front to understand if you don't have that

combination of backbone and heart, can you be effective as a modern leader?

And the wisdom's out there.

You know, it feels like people like you are just sharing it in a really

brilliant way now.

Yeah.

And I think it just requires a bit of courage for anyone who's been doing

things differently.

But if you look on the world stage, you know, the reason leaders like

Jacinda Ardern and Volodymyr Zelensky stick out is because they are so

different in the way they lead.

But in my opinion, they are exactly the kind of modern leaders we need

on the world stage.

And both of them have perfectly balanced this head and heart.

So there's no question.

I mean, one of them's leading a war from a bunker.

Yet he shows great heart.

He communicates beautifully.

He empathizes with the Ukrainian people, you know,

in a way that gravitates a whole nation behind him.

He has got head and heart worked out.

Jacinda Ardern was exactly the same.

So she, during the Christchurch, in the aftermath of the Christchurch

terrorist attacks, during the pandemic,

she was extremely strong and firm about what needed to happen.

Yet she was able to then go and do Facebook Lives at home on her sofa with,

you know, a baby vomit on her shoulder and, you know,

the toddler running around.

And it's that integration for both Zelensky and Ardern that makes us

want to be led by them.

You know, they're the kinds of modern leaders we want to see.

And yet too often, if you think of most other formal leaders on the world stage,

they're very polished.

You see a sanitized version of who they might be outside of their public persona.

You know, there's a, I think,

always a question of, do they really believe what they're saying?

We have excellent bullshit meters.

We can, Australians, like, it's like it's in our DNA.

We can sniff bullshit a mile off.

And we just know if we're being bullshitted.

And a modern leader knows that.

So they cut the bullshit and just tell it how it is, but in a way that has heart.

You know, so there's examples of people who have had to lay off lots of people

during the pandemic.

Yet we're able to do that in a way that put people at the centre still and certainly

could lead with their head and their heart.

Yeah, they're great examples, aren't they?

In real time, as you say, look at Zelensky, who was a comedian and a writer and came from

an acting and a dramatic background.

You know, would people take him seriously as a leader?

Yeah, who would have thought?

Who would have thought he would be the leader we need?

The wartime leader, as you said.

I look at all your dimensions, you know, the humility, the courage just to walk through

the square.

It's clearly, you know, the risk to his own family and his own life and perspective and

the huge amount of empathy as well, too, hasn't he, at the same time?

Zelensky is a master at perspective.

So the layman's way of thinking about perspective is reading the room.

Zelensky, you know, really tailors his messaging about needing more support for the war or

whatever, depending on who he's talking to brilliantly.

So he'll imbue Churchill when he's talking to the House of Lords or House of Commons

in the UK.

And then when he's talking to the US Congress, he'll be telling them how they're, you know,

the most amazing world power.

And he just knows how to bring people along.

And that's incredibly important for a leader.

And I love your message, you know, Kirsten, as well.

It's, you know, people listen to this and say that, you know, it's Dr. Kirsten Ferguson.

She's, you know, Air Force and CEO.

And how can I possibly achieve anything along those lines?

And, you know, you listen to people who, it just seems so far away.

But as you...

You say so often in preparation for this, reading your language, it's, you know, on

your home front, at the dinner table, in your workplace, every single day, you've got an

ability to have a positive impact as a leader on someone else.

And we need people to think that way, don't we?

So I genuinely believe that leadership is this series of moments.

And every moment gives us an opportunity to leave a positive legacy.

And at the start of the book, I actually write about a supermarket checkout operator that

I watched during the pandemic.

And she...

Wouldn't have been older than like 19 or 20, about the age of my daughters at the time.

And she was having to deal with one of the, you know, an older male customer.

I was behind him in the queue.

He was doing all the telltale, you know, he was frustrated and angry and just wanted to

get out.

And it was the peak of toilet paper madness and masks and all of that in the pandemic.

Anyway, as he stepped forward, he raised his voice quite loudly to her and said,

he was never going to shop there because he had to wear a mask and he wanted to, you know,

go somewhere with personal freedoms.

I stepped forward, as did most of the others around, ready to sort of step in and defend

this young woman.

And I mean, we needn't have worried.

She had far more patience and grace and leadership in the moment than I probably would have had.

And she just calmly explained to him that she also didn't like wearing a mask.

And in fact, she had to do it for many hours in a day, but that she did so to keep her

grandmother safe, who lived with her.

And she thanked him for wearing his mask and for helping keep her grandmother safe.

It was a moment where that young woman had no position or authority or staff or a business

card.

You couldn't have got a more junior person in that organisation, yet she was leading.

And I think if I, you know, if she was to know now that I have written about that example,

she'd be shocked.

I don't know who she is.

And she certainly probably doesn't even think of herself as a leader.

And I think that's a big part of it.

And that's what we need to change.

You don't need to have fancy degrees or have had career in the military or running companies

to be a leader.

You know, we're all different.

We've all got different responsibilities.

But she, in that moment, and for anyone listening who's doing anything where you impact others,

you've got that ability to lead.

And Kirsten, we're seeing that everywhere in the work.

You know, we're doing this space as well.

For us, it's almost like the shift from, we call it from

I to we, like it's a hyper-individualised time we've come out of in the world where

it's the self-help books around this is me and what else can I do to get better.

And that's why I love taking your head and heart scale as well, because there is self-reflection

in that around your impact.

And, you know, we feel like, you know, we created our own tool in that space as well,

because we wanted to get away from just, hey, you know, treat me this way and that's it,

as opposed to I'm consciously thinking like that beautiful story you just told around how I can

impact.

Others on a daily basis.

And when you do that, as you said, leadership's that series of moments and you get them

every day, whether you like them or not, don't you?

It's a choice on how you can act.

And if you learn behaviours, as you said, and they are learnt behaviours, you can have

a huge impact, can't you?

Oh, totally.

And so if you're a leader, a formal leader at work and you've got team members and you're

an arsehole and the way you ask for things to be done, which you might not even think

about, you know, you're just grumpy and ask someone to do something for you straight away.

That's a moment.

So that moment you have just left a legacy, that's for sure, but it ain't a good one.

Whereas you can be thinking about consciously, well, you know, how can I do this a bit differently?

How can I actually coach the person to come up with a solution themselves, not just tell

them what I want done?

I mean, it's endless, but it does take humility to do that.

And it does take that real self-awareness of knowing the impact you're having on others.

I remember an example of someone who their peers commented, they never said hello.

When they came in in the morning and they were still in an office and that was a legacy

they were leaving every single day.

You're reinforcing that you don't even say hello.

Now, that person who was doing that clearly lacked any self-awareness of the impact they

were having on others.

They obviously didn't have the humility to ask for feedback anytime or create an environment

that was safe to speak up.

And so, I mean, it's the most simple of examples.

But it's.

It's something that those people remembered and continue to remember.

And how powerful, Kirsten, I feel so privileged to have these conversations.

One of them was with Ange Postacoglu, who you might know is coaching Celtic and doing an

incredible job in every environment that he's in.

And you hear these sort of life hacks.

And one of the things Ange does, if you're the senior coach of a sporting organisation,

as you well know, the whole pulse of the organisation is really taken around the behaviours of

they just are so central to everything, the board, the players, the wellbeing.

His practice is every day, on his way in, he walks through and it's a handshake or a

fist bump with everyone in.

Now, it might cost him five minutes, but everyone in that organisation has touched him and seen

him.

And sometimes you stop and you have a minute and a half or, you know, clearly your time

is something you've got to manage.

But everyone, every day, you think how powerful that is for the most important person.

You've looked in the eye.

You've actually had a handshake.

It's learned behaviour, isn't it?

It's just.

It's something that is free that, but the impact is massive.

That's great.

I love, you know, the opportunity to share those type of stories because they're really

powerful, aren't they?

And the opposite, as you said, someone who's an arsehole in their workspace, the damage

you can do is off the charts as well, isn't it?

Yeah.

I want to call my next book Dinosaurs and Dickheads.

We all know who they are and we all have to work with them, but they can have a really

destructive impact.

And I think that's when.

And, you know, leaders who lead either of those need to be courageous and say, you might

actually be the best coach in the world, but you're having a destructive impact on the

culture of our club or the culture of our team.

You've got to go.

Dinosaurs and Dickheads.

I think you should.

I want to read that one as well.

And we've all been there.

We've all still to this day.

It's that hierarchy.

I'm important because I've got the corner office.

I've got power now.

And so I'll treat people below me.

That's the important point, Luke, is it's easy for us to point out people we think of

those, but frankly, we can all be dinosaurs and dickheads ourselves.

And so it's knowing when you're being a dickhead to really have that self-awareness that is

so critical.

So modern leaders aren't perfect.

There's no way that they get everything right.

They can absolutely be a dickhead on their worst day, but they know that's what they've

done.

And they'll either go through and either ask for feedback and, you know, with humility

say, I really.

I really missed the mark yesterday.

There's no excuse.

I don't want to do that again.

I really want you to make sure you let me know when I go down that path.

You know, that's the way modern leaders respond to dealing.

And that is a brilliant point, isn't it?

It's always easy pointing out the behavior of someone.

A lot harder when you put the mirror up and you're right.

All of us have been there, you know, and it's a work in progress.

We'll have our bad days because it happens a bit too regularly for me.

But I love what you said around the, the,

maybe the superpower.

Then putting your hand up, isn't it?

And say, Hey, I had a shocker there.

You know, I talk about it.

Beck and my wife, Beck, and I talk about that for kids doing that on the home front too,

to the, with the kids are saying, I got that wrong.

You know, my bad, lost my call there.

You know, I apologize.

You know, it's a pretty powerful thing to do, isn't it?

To go back and own your mistakes as well.

Oh, absolutely.

And I, I mean, as a mom of young kids, you're constantly losing your cool and then having

to go back and go, you know, look, I, I didn't handle that very well.

And I would even practice, you know, I'd ask the kids for feedback and they would, you

know, certainly give it to me.

But the fact I was asking, I think helped build that relationship.

And then you can't just ask and ignore it.

And it doesn't mean you have to agree with it either, but you're showing that, you know,

other people have a real voice and that you want to hear it.

And, you know, we all have three triggers when it comes to feedback and the first and

knowing what they are really helps.

So.

First is you're wrong and you just sit there thinking, oh my God, you know, I just don't

even agree with it.

Now, whenever my husband gives me feedback on packing the dishwasher, that pretty well

comes up.

And then so does the next one, which is the second trigger, you're an idiot.

And so then the feedback you're hearing is impacted by the relationship that you've got

with the person.

And it could be the best feedback in the world, but you're clouded by the audacity of this

person to come and give it to you.

But the third one, which really is the one we need.

To understand is it triggers something in ourself.

So, you know, it triggers a sense of shame or anger or embarrassment or whatever it is

that's going on for you.

And I think the more we can be aware of our triggers, that's when obviously that self

awareness really gets practiced.

We've seen you in real time, Kirsten, having to live the words that you speak.

And I think of 2018, you became the chair of the ABC, the Australian Broadcasting

Commission, at a fairly tumultuous time, would be reasonable to say.

The previous chair, Justin Milne, had resigned and there was accusations that there'd been

interference with the editorial independence of the ABC.

And suddenly you're in the chair.

And I can remember this really well.

And I'm thinking, this is going to be interesting because the journos aren't going to let you

off the hook here.

Your own ABC journos aren't.

And I think you're fronted straight up.

I might have been with Lee Sales or straight into the hot seat.

Tell me about...

Tell me about that moment in time.

But I can see your smiling face now.

That's what you did.

You came on...

I was smiling now, but it was certainly...

I was in the hot seat and it was utterly unexpected and something I hadn't prepared for at all.

I had never been on television and my first experience was a 20-minute live interview.

And so, I mean, that really tests your ability to stay calm under pressure.

And I think, if anything, I drew on my military experience through all of that.

Because, you know, I knew what was needed was just a calming influence in what was a very

tumultuous time.

And that's what I was able to draw on.

And I feel really fortunate that I was able to stay calm publicly.

It doesn't mean that privately, you know, it's not this enormous pressure that you feel.

And I wasn't used to being papped.

I'd never had people, you know, trying to find where I was.

And that was really quite...

You know, confronting for anyone who's not used to that.

But I've always been very focused on duty and, you know, what's needed in the moment.

And that's how I sort of got through that period and got a group of trusted advisors.

Because you have everyone coming out of the woodwork wanting to tell you what you should do.

And I think being able to narrow that down to just a very small handful that you truly trust and, you know,

have the best interests, in this case, of the organisation.

And that was all I could really focus on doing at that time.

And you did it beautifully.

You referenced your time in the Air Force there.

You felt that was really helpful in that pressure situation?

Yeah, I do, actually.

You never know how you'll react to those kind of situations until you're in them.

Like, you can't practice for it, really.

And because nothing's ever going to feel as real as the pressure that is actually happening.

And I know when the announcement was made that I was...

I was acting chair.

I think the Prime Minister did it on live TV at about nine in the morning.

And I hadn't even told my children or anything what was going on.

So, you know, there's frantic calls from them as they see their mother's name all over the news.

Like, what is going on?

So, yeah, I think the military teaches you a lot about, you know,

that leading in a situation where there's serious consequences

and that you need to lead...

lead in a way that brings people along,

that reads the room, again, back to this perspective.

Like, you actually understand what's going to help navigate a situation as best you can.

And, you know, in that particular point in time,

it was very hard to know how to navigate.

There were so many things happening in different contexts.

But I do think that my military training definitely enabled me to draw on

some perhaps long, dormant skills of just leading,

in that moment and prioritising and, you know,

just fighting the fire that's in front of your face,

not the one that's there tomorrow.

You haven't got time to look at that yet.

Let's just look at the immediate priority.

You've been a really passionate advocate for diversity and women.

Your first book, Women Kind,

Unlocking the Power of Women Supporting Women,

is another incredible piece of work.

I encourage people to check out all of Kirsten's work.

It's really profound.

But you do talk about really running away from that.

In your earlier years,

that that wasn't something you saw as being important.

And now you've become an incredible, passionate, supportive driver of that.

I mean, I feel even my own world, Kirsten, it's a learning experience.

I went to an all-boys school.

I played AFL football in an all-male environment.

Your unconscious bias is just, it's real.

And you really have to learn if you want to have an impact.

And then you see the incredible,

incredible benefit of diversity of thinking around you.

And it's just so dumb.

I know, you think, weren't we idiots?

How dumb were we?

How dumb were we not to even understand that?

It still fills ticker box for some people in that space.

Is that still there for you?

Well, I think firstly to explain why, yeah, until maybe a decade ago,

I would run from women's events.

I just never wanted to be seen at some women's leadership thing.

And that was because I came through male domination.

I didn't want to be seen as a female leader or a female Air Force officer.

I just wanted to be one of the guys.

And that unfortunately stuck with me a long way through my career.

And it's such a waste now for exactly for you, as you say,

because had I been able to draw on the power of, you know,

other women who are all experiencing the same thing,

we would have had a very different experience.

But I think, yeah, you're right.

Some people do not understand the value of diversity and inclusion.

And generally, it's those people who have been privileged enough

not to have to have ever experienced what it's like to not be in the majority.

I think that's getting better.

And I think women in particular, if we're just talking on gender,

because intersectionality is so important.

So if you imagine women of colour and men of colour

have very different experiences to white women and white men.

But I think if we just look at gender,

I think there's a lot of work that is being done,

but it just is never enough.

We never seem to, you know, the change is still glacial.

But I think the way women now are able to talk about their experiences

is something that I'm just thrilled about,

because for so long, we would never raise issues at all.

Yeah, and I'm seeing in real time,

because some of the work we're doing in our space,

a leader is the name of the business.

And we've...

Forming these groups together, a leader connect of different leaders

from around the world, effectively groups of five or six.

And the brilliance is the diversity.

And the brilliance is putting outstanding female, you know,

leaders with male leaders or people from the world of the arts,

with sports people, with people from, you know,

and you only know what you know, don't you?

Or you don't know what you don't know.

And so for us in real time to see the genius of that unfolding

is a really special thing.

And out of that,

Kirsten, we've seen our own patterns

around what we think great leadership looks like.

And I think there's a lot of intersection in your world here.

I've been looking forward to asking these questions to you,

because I think you're going to have a very profound understanding of it.

And we see self-leadership really as the sort of cornerstone.

And perhaps that is a language you use with self-awareness.

But effectively, we don't feel like you can lead someone else

unless you've got a sense of being able to lead yourself.

When you think of self-leadership, what does that mean to you?

I think it's firstly a mindset.

That you are aware that you are a leader.

And again, we're talking about in that sphere

of whatever your life might look like.

So you could be a single mum at home with a few kids

thinking about starting a jewellery-making business online.

You are leading in that moment.

As soon as you start to have those ideas,

the influence you're having on your kids as a role model,

the choices you're making,

how you're going to bring them up or how you're going to support them.

All of that is leadership.

And I think until you actually understand that you are leading,

and you are a role model,

it's hard to then think about what that self-leadership looks like.

But then for me, it comes back to those moments.

It's knowing that in every single moment,

you've got that ability to not only leave a legacy to someone else,

but for yourself.

Because each moment that you lead in a way that you're proud of

reinforces what works well and you'll do more of

and be braver about in the future.

Can I drill into that a little bit more?

And for someone, you know, a mother, a CEO,

you know, so many different areas that you've taken on.

I mean, practically on a daily basis, you know,

what are the things that have served you well to be able to manage?

You know, we're all trying to do that,

but are there some practical things?

You know, that's my day.

And when I do that, I'm at my absolute best.

Yeah.

Like, I am a pretty good balance of head and hearts.

And the way that looks practically is I'm very task-focused.

Like, in a default sense, you know,

I'm very disciplined in the work that I do

and I know what I need to do in any given day

and I'm never late and I'm very professional

and all of those sorts of things.

That, to me, is incredibly important for my sense of self-efficacy

or self-leadership in a different way of thinking about it.

But then the heart side for me is I'm very aware

of when I'm getting burnt out or when I'm tired

or when I'm stressed.

Or when I am feeling that I've lost that courage

to sort of, you know, having, you might feel a day

where you just, my kids and I call it a blah day,

where you just feel a bit blah.

You know, you just haven't got the same energy.

I'm pretty good at knowing what's going on with that.

And so, you know, that balance for me comes

from understanding that both are important.

So, even though that drive is there to,

you know, get everything done and be perfect,

I'm really aware of what it means to need to take a day

or more as well.

And so, I'm not sure if that answers your question,

but for me, that is the holistic way that I self-lead

because I achieve, yet I regulate

and hopefully together they work.

That's a brilliant way to explain it.

I love it.

It's, you know, clearly comes out in all your writing

and all your work.

But yeah, it is.

It's useful to hear someone talk about your life.

And we all know those days, don't you?

Where you just cannot, for whatever reason,

function and focus and...

Well, there's nothing wrong with you.

You're just human.

You're just human.

Having a crap day.

Yeah, being kind to yourself.

But it took me a long time to get that.

You know, perfectionism was definitely a driving feature.

Ambition when I was younger, you know,

just wanting to achieve and achieve and achieve.

And I think I got the balance wrong.

And so, it's taken confidence over time.

And to understand that if you get the balance right,

it actually will help you be more successful.

Can I just add one other thing that I think is really important

is being yourself in all contexts.

So, the way I'm talking with you now is the way I am

when I'm in board meetings or when I'm giving speeches

or when I'm with my family or when I'm at the pub with my friends.

You know, that consistency of who we are and removing that armour.

And I think for many of us going to work in particular,

you know, you can't be yourself.

And some of that could be self-imposed.

Some of it could be cultural.

But if it is self-imposed, realising that, in fact,

everyone around you just wants to see the person you are

because it's going to make you a much more authentic leader too.

It's tiring trying to be someone else all the time.

Yeah, it's exhausting.

Yeah, hard to keep that up.

But also, you know, important to understand that as well.

We see leaders are really modern leaders in our version,

really conscious about how they go about impacting people.

And their environment in a positive way.

I mean, I'm sure that's what you do.

How do you think about that impact on people positively?

Well, I think, firstly,

our sense of self-awareness is much greater than it actually is.

So that's something to be aware of.

And research shows 95% of us think we're self-aware

and only 10% to 15% of those that we lead agree.

So that's a pretty scary statistic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you say having a positive impact,

I guess my first thought is how do you know it's positive?

Because we may have a sense that, oh,

they love it when I fist pump them every day

when I come into the office.

There could also be a situation where everyone dreads

that they've got to do that every morning

because you do that as a perfunctory thing.

But then for the rest of the day, you're the dickhead.

So there's this whole sense of understanding

how you're impacting people, but only through feedback.

Like unless you're actually checking how that impact is being measured,

I think it's hard for us to judge.

Sorry, that feels like a complicated way to answer your question.

But whenever we say a positive impact, how do you know?

How do you know?

That's a great thought and one that is challenging in some ways, isn't it?

Because you're right.

I mean, that's that, isn't it?

You think you're self-aware.

But if you're not measuring it and asking people

and not reflecting constantly, then how do you actually know?

Can I give you an example?

During the pandemic at the start when we were all at home,

there were a lot of leaders who thought they needed to check in

with their teams online like every hour, every day or whatever.

And there were team members just going, can you just back off?

Like, I know you care, but this is now really irritating

because I don't need you to check in.

So, I mean, that's so simple.

But it's that idea that we must get feedback

and we must create a feedback culture where people feel they can say,

mate, the fist pumps, we love the intention, but let's focus on this instead.

Maybe once a week.

Yeah.

Wind it back, dude.

Wind it back.

Well, yeah, no, it is a great point, isn't it?

And not many of us take that time out in our environments to actually ask, do we?

We don't actually think of, hey, that's 20 people I interact with every day.

Right.

Am I prepared?

Because there's courage in it, isn't it, too, to actually, do you really want to hear it?

Or, you know, are you going to pretend that you're self-aware?

So, no, it's a great point.

Creating and sharing a vision is something we see leaders are really conscious of,

modern leaders, about how they create, how they share that vision,

how they get a team involved in that vision.

Does that resonate with you?

Yes, unless it's the modern leader thinking, A, they need to create the vision

and, B, they need to drive it.

So, I would see a vision very much as a collective thing.

And so, modern leaders, yes, will realize that a vision is important for bringing everyone

along on the same journey, but they won't ever think that they're responsible for it.

You know, they're a guide to help bring together the views of everyone else.

But there's a lot of leaders who think that if they write the vision, everyone else is,

you know, going to be, woohoo, that's fantastic.

I'm following you.

And that's probably lip service, really, unless you've brought them along from the beginning.

And there's an art in that too, isn't there?

Clearly, to get a group of people to want to achieve together and manage all of that.

And, you know, we've seen a big shift in sport, Kirsten, around, you know,

it was very hierarchical era the year I played and you didn't have any say at all in your environment.

Even if you're 15 years in with more experience than the coach,

sometimes you weren't, you know, collaborated with in any way, shape or form.

So, that ownership.

That ownership of your own space.

Feeling like you've got a voice in your own space, isn't it?

And having someone, as you said, guide you along the path,

that's when it can be really powerful and really healthy, isn't it?

But it's a balance.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, everyone should have a voice.

From the most junior checkout operator through to the CEO of Woolworths or Coles,

the responsibilities are different, but they're still vital cogs in the same organisation.

And so, I think it's more, there's a lot of nuance in what we're talking about,

Luke.

So, I mean, there's no doubt that leaders are responsible for making sure there is a vision,

for example.

But I think it's this idea of thinking that you're the only solution to any problem

is where leaders are going to fall foul.

And I've seen that in the media space a lot, Kirsten, where, you know,

some of the best ideas and some of the most creative people

don't get ever asked about their thoughts because they're in a junior position

and it's five or six people sitting around a board table.

That are the gatekeepers for all good ideas.

That's what a waste, isn't it?

When you've got, you know, all those people out there to listen to and we don't ask.

Yeah, I interviewed in my book a whole range of different leaders.

And one of them was Benjamin Law, who's a writer and producer.

And he was just on Survivor, actually.

But he used the example that in a writer's room,

there's the producer and the head writer and the other writers.

But there's always a note taker.

And the note taker tends to be the most junior person

and how often they're totally ignored.

Yet they'll have the contribution that when he has sorted out

is exactly the piece of particularly lived experience

because they're generally from marginalized backgrounds.

That's perfect for the solution that they're looking for.

And so he always now seeks out the views of the note taker.

But it's this idea for anyone listening,

who's the note taker in your room that you're just ignoring,

that little do you know, they've got the perfect solution.

Everyone should have a voice.

It's obviously in a board meeting, it's different,

but you can still make this idea work.

Curiosity is a common word we use as well.

And clearly one of the dimensions you talk about

and modern leaders really using curiosity

as they're jumping off point, Kirsten, to how they learn and develop themselves.

Can you expand on why curiosity?

Is so important for you?

Yeah, because it means you've got this genuine thirst

to fill a gap in your knowledge.

But the most important part of it for me

is that it means you've accepted that you don't know everything.

So this idea of leaders who feel they need to be

the smartest person in the room,

that is kryptonite to curiosity

or assumptions are kryptonite to curiosity.

My family has a saying called mum's disease.

And no, I don't have a disease.

I've got nothing wrong with me.

But what I do have a tendency to do

is one of the things that I do is I do a lot of research.

And I do a lot of research.

And I do a lot of research.

And I do a lot of research.

And I do a lot of research.

And I do a lot of research.

One of them will start a sentence

and I will have already thought of a solution

or worse, I've verbalized a solution

before they've even finished.

And so now they just go, mum's disease and walk away.

Because that assumption I'm making

is an end to being curious

about what they might be about to say.

So for me, curiosity is that real willingness to listen

and to then rethink what you thought you knew.

And that is key to being a modern leader.

We simply do not have all the answers.

And if you think you do, obviously, you've got a long way to go.

I love the feedback on the home front.

Oh yeah, so do I.

Really love it, Luke.

I love it.

I've got a 17-year-old daughter who's giving me plenty of feedback regularly,

whether I like it or not.

But it is, isn't it?

It's the mirror up, isn't it?

It's often the...

Yeah, and they're spot on.

The things that trigger you the most generally

are the things that you know they're right.

Which is really annoying at the same time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Very irritating.

Communicating with clarity is something we, again,

see leaders really conscious about how they communicate,

how often they communicate.

Is that something you've given thought to as well?

Yeah, of course.

I mean, unless you can speak in a language

that is received by those you're leading,

then you may as well be speaking a different language altogether.

I think too many leaders look to blame the people

that they're leading for not getting it.

Whereas, you know, it's absolutely put the mirror up.

If you're not communicating in a way that simplifies ideas

or is at a pace as in, you know, if there's a lot of change happening,

if you haven't matched the pace to the people that you're leading.

And I know that was something I always fell into the trap of

as a much younger leader because I was so ambitious

and wanting to do things quickly and move forward.

But, you know, you can only ever go at the pace

of the slowest member of the team who you need

to bring along.

So I think there's a lot of importance for leaders, again,

and it all comes back to that self-awareness

of the impact of their communication,

but also getting feedback from others on how effective it is.

And if you're getting feedback that it's not hitting the mark,

that is only on you to change.

Yeah, beautifully said.

How important is collaboration to you as a modern leader, Kirsten?

Well, we're not islands, so we are not modern leaders

on our own, that's for sure.

I think the idea of collaborating or collectively leading,

I think, is the only way that we can all move together.

And, you know, that, again, is thinking about leadership

in a formal and an informal sense.

And so in families, you collaborate on your leadership.

You know, we don't ever call it that, but that's what's happening

when you're arguing about who's picking up the kids from school

or doing all that.

Ultimately, that's a collaboration of a leadership team

that may or may not be communicating well.

But at work, it's absolutely critical.

And, you know, I like to think about the collective leadership

we've seen from movements like Me Too or Black Lives Matters.

You know, that is a collective leadership model,

and I think we're seeing that more and more.

It's interesting you mention that.

My mind was going a little bit the other way on an international stage

and politically to a lot of autocratic leaders that are emerging

around the globe and this sort of trend, you know, in the time.

And, you know, we know the names.

You don't even have to.

Just to say them out loud.

Putin.

Yeah.

Trump.

Yeah.

Thanks, thanks.

Yeah.

And the list goes on, doesn't it?

That disturbing trend, you know, the opposite of you don't see humility there,

do you?

You don't see curiosity, you know.

And even I felt, you know, through the COVID times,

a lot of leaders shrunk their cabinets to one or two people

and didn't take on advice outside of their very, very inner circle,

which is sort of counterintuitive to, I think,

the wisdom that you're talking about.

Yeah, it was fascinating.

I loved watching.

Well, obviously, I didn't enjoy the pandemic, but I did love watching it.

It was like a leadership experiment, you know, that we were watching real time.

And I think that default to consolidating power is a real throwback to that

ingrained stereotypes of leadership that I mentioned earlier that we've had for

centuries, where it's that command and control and the idea that, you know,

in a battle or in a war that we were waging, you know, you have the one supreme leader.

But if you go and look at Volodymyr Zelensky, he's very openly actually fighting a war

and has a large group of people that he will share leadership with and that he relies on.

Because, you know, if you can't do that, then I think we've got a lot of problems.

And, you know, I know from having been put in that difficult situation leading that we're

talking about before, the more people are.

The more people are around you to actually support and help you come up with good solutions

and good ideas, the better.

So, you know, it stumped me why we saw that, particularly here as well, where we came to

learn afterwards that there was a lot of consolidation of power going on.

And I'm sure you would have been, you would be familiar with Jim Collins's great work

in Good to Great.

And he talks about that level five leader.

And he's done so much research and study.

And that.

The sustainable success comes from that modern leader that's humble, the organizations, you

know, you might get a sugar hit, you know, he references in his book, I think, you know,

Mike Chainsaw Dunlap was a sort of flavor of the month and come around and, you know,

literally with the chainsaw and sack everyone.

And, you know, you get the spike in bottom line for a period of time.

But afterwards, horrific results.

But the humble, self-aware, self-great leader, good to great, you know, had sustained success,

as you were saying.

And I.

I think that pattern's pretty, pretty clear.

I want to ask you this question or two final questions, if that's OK.

I've been asking this of all the guests.

Who's been the greatest leader in your life?

Um, I can't give you an answer.

I have a buffet that I call on.

And I know you want to name.

Can you give us the buffet?

No, I want the buffet.

No, but there's family members, public figures, men, women, strangers, supermarket operators.

Like, I just don't think there's any one leader that ticks all the boxes.

Well, not for me anyway.

And I, I like to learn from a diverse group of leaders.

So I, I genuinely can't give you one.

Which is a great answer, Kirsten.

I love it.

Yeah.

It's a buffet.

I have a buffet.

Is there some examples along the way that, that we could, you could share?

Endless, you know, so, well, Jacinda Ardern's amazing and Volodymyr Zelensky there, top of my list at the moment.

Satya Nadella, the way that he's leading Microsoft, he's put empathy as a bottom line value.

The late Arne Sorensen, who led Marriott Group.

He was.

He's an incredible leader.

I write about a guy called Captain Will Swenson at the start of my book, who did this incredible moment of leadership in the Afghanistan war.

Like there's just, I could come on and on, but all of them have qualities that I think together we can learn from, but there's no one person that does that.

Given you've got a PhD in leadership, I'm probably not surprised by the answer you've, you've covered, you've covered some ground.

It was always going to be hard to, to know on one answer there.

For sure.

But I, I love the thought of it is that constantly learning from those around us, we're, we're a bit obsessed with the idea of collaboration for modern leaders.

And, and I do like asking this question.

I think I'm going to get a similar answer, but if you could collaborate with, with anyone on, you've got such diverse range of interests and you, and you see that from you in, in media and sport and, and the Air Force.

Is there someone you think, God, if I could have, or could collaborate, is there anyone that springs to mind?

Oh, you know, the person I would love to sit down with.

And understand is Greta Thunberg, not because, I mean, she's doing great things, but she is a leader that is, breaks every rule of leadership.

You know, she was a teenager.

She had no followers, no power, no authority, yet she has obviously galvanized millions of people around the world.

There's no one who wouldn't call her a leader.

And so I'm fascinated by her unconsciousness.

Conscious approach to leadership and what that would look like and how we could motivate that, whatever that kernel of leadership that was in her that gave her the courage to just speak up when she did.

Imagine if you had people all over the world in whatever it is they're doing or believing in having that same motivation.

So I think that's more of an answer that's around my curiosity, but yeah, she fascinates me.

Yeah.

Fascinates me as well.

You know, 15-year-old, 16-year-old from Sweden, you know, without, as you said, any identifiable reason that she would become so influential.

It's a great story.

And there's so many great stories.

I've loved reading and learning a lot about your life and the way you've gone about it.

And thanks so much for sharing today.

KirstenFerguson.com.

I encourage you to check it out.

So many great resources.

Take the head and heart.

Lead a scale and start your leadership journey.

With Kirsten, it's a great place to begin.

And I really appreciate your time.

Thanks again.

Thanks so much, Luke.

Thank you for listening to the Empowering Leaders podcast, powered by temper, a mattress like no other.

And to make sure you don't miss an episode, click subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.