How do you take over a business that many experts have said has no future
and turn it into a global powerhouse?
What are the tangible traits that make one leader different from another?
My predecessor was very unhappy that he had been pushed out by the shareholder.
He announced to the staff on my appointment that I was the worst choice imaginable.
And so to some degree, my leadership style at that stage was just trying to encourage
an organisation to have belief in the future.
G'day, it's Luke Darson.
The idea of self-improvement and leadership both on and off the field has been a lifelong
With one of my oldest friends, we created a leader collective and have had the privilege
of working with thousands of leaders in education, sport, industry and the arts that have helped
shift to what we see as the 21st century style of leadership where everyone has a voice.
In this podcast, we hear stories from these iconic leaders.
For over 20 years, Dr. Brian McNamee was the CEO of CSL.
In 1999, the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories was a small government-owned business valued
at little more than the buildings and land they were located on.
Incredibly, under Brian's leadership, it has been transformed into Australia's biggest
company with 25,000 employees in more than 35 countries.
Regarded by many as an outlier in corporate Australia for his unique thinking, Brian has
been at the head of CSL's decision-making and continues to be a leader in one of the
world's most important industries.
Well, Brian McNamee is without question one of Australia's most successful and revered
Having graduated with a degree in medicine, Brian initially looked to be following brother
Paul, who many know as an Australian Davis Cup legend, former world number one doubles
player on the professional tennis circuit.
Instead, Brian turned his attention to the world of commercial medicine, working initially
in Australia for folding, then the startup with Pacific Biotech.
Before being headhunted at 33 years of age to run the government-owned Commonwealth
Serum Laboratories that dealt mainly in flu vaccines, antibiotics, and plasma products.
On his retirement as CEO 23 years later, CSL had remarkably grown to a valuation of $28.5
billion, was bringing in revenue in excess of $5 billion a year, employing 11,000 staff
Brian is currently the chairman of CSL, which has now gone past the Commonwealth Bank as
Australia's biggest company.
Brian, thank you so much for joining us.
It's great to catch up with you today.
It's an extraordinary story of success.
When you look back at that long list of achievements, what's the overriding emotion for you?
Well, look, I think there's one little thing you missed in the introduction, which I'd
like to just highlight, was how tennis helped create me in the opportunity.
Because when I'd finished medicine and I practiced for a couple of years and my wife, we'd met
at medical school, we decided to have a gap year and I actually went overseas playing
And during that time, I met people who were the president.
I met people who were the president of the club and they wanted me to come back the following
And Cologne was a very big pharmaceutical centre.
So I actually joined the pharmaceutical industry, partly to play club tennis.
So that's a sliding door moment in life, Brian, clearly, that you wanted to continue living
overseas and playing tennis.
And so there was no draw to that world.
It was literally, hey, we've got an opportunity for you work-wise and that's where it started.
Look, it is interesting.
I mean, I did medicine.
I did medicine at that time.
And for me, it was a course I got into.
I loved being a medical student.
I had great friends in medicine.
I'm not sure I was a great, I believe there's more to the world than merely just doing medicine.
And so I had a couple of friends who are entrepreneurs who we used to play intervarsity tennis together.
And I saw their entrepreneurial life and how business could be interesting.
I came from a very non-business family.
My dad was a fireman.
Mum was a schoolteacher.
And I thought, look, that's interesting.
I wonder what's on the other side of the fence.
And so when the opportunity in Germany came up, I saw it as a low-risk option, something
interesting to do, and to some degree haven't looked back.
But it was very much a sliding door moment, uncharted territory, and really got there
The CSL story is one of Australia's greatest ever success stories.
And it's fascinating to think 33 years of age is a pretty young leader.
And when you look back, I mean, was your vision as big?
Because it's turned out to be.
And what sort of leader were you at that age taking over a government business?
So there are really a couple of things in that.
I mean, if I look back, when I first joined Foldings, that was a big opportunity in Adelaide
because I went from managing no staff to running a large group and then manufacturing.
So I ended up with 300 staff, and I was still only 28 at the time.
And really, I guess I learned from the Foldings experience, and they sent me to a six-week,
six-week management course to sort of do an MBA, which originally I was thinking of
doing a more full-time MBA.
But I was asked during that course, you know, what are you here for?
And I said, well, really, I'm here to try and create a great Australian pharmaceutical
I said, we don't have one.
I'm not really sure how we're going to do it, but to some degree, that's really what
And so if you look at the CSL opportunity in that prism of what I thought was an interesting
opportunity, to some degree...
CSL had the ingredients for success, but its ownership structure, its culture, and
its history held it back incredibly.
I mean, a government bureaucracy, federal ministers who really tried to dominate the
company and tell it what to do, poor prices for products because we had very little negotiating
power with the Commonwealth.
So to some degree, we were just a downtrodden organization that probably peaked in the 50s
And thereafter was really managed.
To help the Federal Department of Health manage their budget by controlling prices,
not by trying to be successful.
So to some degree, John Button, you know, some of you listeners may not know John, but
he was arguably one of our great Australian industry ministers who had a vision for many
industries, car industry included, but also the pharmaceutical industry.
It was John who tapped me on the shoulder and said, look, you know, come and have a
look at this job.
We had to try and turn the whole organization's thinking about what we can do now to try and
be a competitive company looking forward, rather than think about, weren't we great
because we delivered polio and insulin?
And they were great things.
Vaccination, plasma proteins originally.
Our problem was, like many Australian companies though, we were a completely technologically
dependent company.
We hadn't invented a product ourselves in 80 years.
So we'd cap in hand.
We'd have to go overseas and try and plead with big companies, Merck, Baxter, or whomever.
Can we license your product for the Australian market?
That was the card we played.
And I, you know, talked to John Button a lot and said, look, we have to get past that.
We have to actually develop our own products.
We have to have manufacturing plants of a sufficient scale.
We have to narrow the company down.
We have to invest more in R&D to have a chance.
And to some degree, I mean, the company was truly not well regarded.
At the time I took over, Anderson Consulting did a report for the government valuing the
entire company at $23 million, including the Parkville land.
They hadn't had positive cash flow, I think, for 10 to 12 years when I arrived.
So this was a difficult time.
But there was some really competent, true believers inside the company that these are
the people you've got to find.
I mean, when you're new in a job, most people are going to sit on the sidelines and watch
how you behave and what you're doing.
And, you know, does this person really make a difference?
So most people are really what I call passive and independent.
You'll have a few that are throwing grenades from the sidelines and you just have to have
to learn to catch them and throw them back.
But occasionally you'll feel nuggets of gold.
The people who do want to sign up and believe in the new vision and the new ideas and the
And you've got to try and win them over and you've got to find those people.
And they're not always your direct reports, I can assure you.
So it's a matter of trying.
You have to do that in such a way that the organization doesn't tear itself apart, but
in fact, reorients itself for the future.
I understand that the Anderson Report recommended the company fold and sell off the assets.
And that valuation, as you said, was probably the equivalent of the land.
Your former outgoing CEO says you're the worst possible appointment.
It's a lot on your plate from day one.
There's so much to unpack from what you said, but you said finding those little nuggets
And they weren't necessarily coming from the leadership team.
And how did you go about doing that?
Can you explain that a bit more?
Well, it is interesting.
I mean, I'm always a great believer that it's great to meet a lot of people and wander around
and talk to a lot of people.
I try to be very mobile.
Previously, CSO had been a very bureaucratic, or Commonwealth Serum Laboratories, very bureaucratic
government organization.
You'd have paperwork would shuffle up and the answer would shuffle down the organization.
So obviously, I was young.
And, you know, fresh air, really, at the company.
So I would always try and find the most expert person on a topic and ask them what they thought.
What do you think we should be doing?
And part of it was, we should be stopped doing some of the things that they were doing today.
So I think one of the best things I did early on was there was an alternative research group
out at Monash University that the company had put a lot of money into, but it was unclear
it was actually going anywhere.
And so I took the decision.
We'd sell the company and my first best deal at CSO was to sell that company for a dollar
because it saved me like a four or five million dollar shutdown costs.
So I gave the company away to Kyron, a US biotech company, a dollar.
So we framed that.
That was our first big deal, selling a company for a dollar.
Well, one of the quotes I've heard, there's many attributed to you.
The success of CSO was under the stewardship of Brian McNamee was in no small part due
to his exemplary strategic and collaborative skills.
So I think it's important to have a collaborative leadership style.
I hear you talking about that, actually asking people, finding out what they thought and
in some ways what was needed and what was needed to stop.
I mean, was that collaborative leadership style come naturally to you or did you think
that was just the best way forward?
Look, I think it does come naturally to me.
I mean, I try to have as little hierarchy and bureaucracy in the company and try to
encourage the people that they had the answers.
I didn't have all.
And that took a while for people to sort of accept.
When I first joined the company, people would say, well, tell me what you want me to do.
I'd say, I don't know.
You tell me, what do you think you should be doing?
I don't have all the answers.
It's my job to try and draw out of you.
You're the experts.
Many of you were technical experts.
What do you think are our best opportunities and how do we set that up?
So it was a very different change.
And of course, not everyone in the old government-owned Commonwealth Serum Labs could cope with that.
So we ended up with resignation.
We had, obviously, a big redundancy program early on, trying to clean the place out a little bit.
But the ones who wanted to succeed, because to some degree, these people I'd identified,
they were almost embarrassed by what Commonwealth Serum Laboratories had become.
It was originally in the 60s and 50s, 60s, a great organization.
But it really had declined materially.
And if the card they were only playing was either a begging bowl, where they'd go to
Canberra to ask for more money, or they'd go to the US or Europe and beg for a license
for a product, really what I'd call a demoralizing business plan.
And so I said, no, we're stopping all that.
We're going to fund our own future ourselves by saving money in lots of places.
And we're going to reinvest in the future.
And we're going to make our own products.
We're going to make our own products.
And we're going to go.
To the US market, which completely spooked the government as well, because they were
fearful of liability laws in the US, et cetera.
So one of the other things we were able to do was to persuade the government they could
not hold a share once we were once privatized.
Do not own a single share in the company, because to some degree, you will hold us back.
Give us our freedom.
Give us our opportunity.
And we negotiated a particular deal at Broadmeadows to achieve.
But in essence, we had to persuade the staff.
We were standing on our own two feet.
There was no going back to Canberra for money.
And I think if nothing else, I'd say I'm a great believer in competition to instill that
fear as well as motivation into an organization to improve.
If you take that away, it's actually very hard.
You can't subsidize yourself to success, I don't think.
The title of this is Empowering Leadership, Brian.
And clearly, you're ahead of your time in that.
I've worked in the TV industry for a long period of time.
Some of the best ideas that I've heard come from the cameramen and the crew that work
behind the scenes.
They're TV fanatics.
They know the industry inside out, but no one tends to ask them their thoughts.
And so there's a wasted opportunity in expertise in my mind when you sort of centralize the
good ideas can only come from a handful of people.
Yeah, and it's dangerous, isn't it?
You get a group think.
And to some degree.
And that's the challenge.
And it's really, it's that having the antenna up.
I mean, I'm a great believer in this, having an antenna when you walk around an organization.
Like, people are always amazed.
I mean, I used to have free days often at the company.
I'd have no meetings organized.
I mean, previously at CSL, everyone had rigid, you know, there were meetings all the time.
And I'd say, no, no, I don't.
I just wander around, talk to people, see what they're doing in the lab, understand what they're
And so just try to, and then just by talking to people about what they're doing and what they're doing,
why they're doing it, how they're doing it, could we do it better or could we do it faster?
And after a while, you really start learning who the really smart people are.
They may not be the most educated.
Sometimes they are.
But I call them the pickers.
Who are the people with the smarts?
This combination of insight, education, and cunning.
And all business needs cunning, by the way.
You know, it's not a negative term.
You need to be smart.
And so it's finding those people who could.
Help us in all our divisions, because we're a multi-divisional company at the time,
try and create a pathway for growth and opportunity.
Why do they turn the pickers?
Well, because they're really good at picking the right products, the right market to enter,
the right opportunity.
Because in our industry, like many industries, often strategy is as much about deciding what
not to do as it is deciding what to do.
Because sometimes you can have too many things.
You can have too many things in front of you, and you'll get lost.
And what I see is many organizations just, they sort of embark on so many different initiatives
that it's unclear what the important ones are.
And I've tried to simplify CSL.
So when I first joined the company, they had a big TQM, total quality management program,
which I said, that's great, but I don't know, who put quality first at the company?
What happened to new products?
What happened to customers?
What happened to patients?
So I said, look, can we just turn this around?
I think quality is given.
The question is, it's more about what are we going to do and which markets, which products,
which technologies, they're the key questions.
And you need so-called pickers, and it's often a very small number, who can integrate all
those things and actually help you make the best choices.
And so you look at CSL and that you're currently the chairman of, it now employs 25,000 people,
There'll be Australian leaders listening to this who want to try and compete on the
How did you get to that level where not only compete, but you're a market leader worldwide?
Well, I mean, to some degree, you try not to get ahead of yourself.
I mean, looking back, it does look remarkable, but each of them were just steps, rational
steps, where we try to de-risk each important step.
We had a belief though, that you have to be...
To be successful in our industry, you need to have...
You need to operate in US and Europe and be successful in that scale.
So the challenge for many Australian companies is that may not be possible.
I mean, many of the larger Australian companies, their predominant job is extracting margin
from the Australian public.
That's what they're good at.
Do I think the telcos here are very good?
They're not bad at charging.
It's probably their core skill.
I mean, they do some other decent things.
But do I think they could be global telco companies?
No, not a chance.
Not a chance in hell.
Could an Australian telco have a global impact if it had a different vision?
I don't think so.
It would surprise me.
Whereas I think that...
See, the features I'm looking for in companies that can be global is you really need to have...
You need to be in a sector where you have a lot of competition domestically.
So you've honed your skills against competition, true global competition.
You need to have high regulatory standards.
Because you can't discount your way to success globally, I don't think.
You've got to have...
So we in healthcare and other industries, we have high regulatory standards so that
we have products and processes, if we can compete with Merck and other companies who
can import product very cheaply, we at least have a chance.
And then you've got to work out, and in what areas can we be competitive?
Because you don't want to go head to head with Roche and the other huge companies.
So what niches can you operate?
You think that you can expand sufficiently in that will create value for you and your
shareholders and create a competitive moat.
So all great businesses have competitive moats and they're always looking for ways to make
them deeper and broader and make the competitive challenge for new entrants harder and harder.
And that's how you have to think about your business.
And so again, going back to many of the Australian companies, their moat is Australia.
And their access to the Australian retail public and the wires or the bank branches,
that is their card.
Their card isn't something that is exactly able to be globalized.
And so what happens when they go overseas?
Well, that's partly because if you look back, actually what makes them successful here is
not what would make them easily to take that offshore.
So you look at their story of growth and I love that term.
You used about building a moat and deepening that around, but the scale, and we've mentioned
a number of times from a company that was effectively about to be wound up or advised
to be to a market cap now of 150 billion or thereabouts.
So from a growth and scale point of view, a lot of people want to achieve that, that
are listening and trying to grow their business.
What sort of advice would you give?
The scoreboard is the result of what you've done and the success you've embedded in the
It's not the ambition.
The scoreboard is not the ambition.
It's a bit like, you're not a tennis player walking out the court saying, I really want
to win six, three, six, four today.
You try and win every point.
If you win more points, you win more games, you win more games, you win more sets.
So to some degree, and if I want to improve, I work on my backhand and you might ask me
what was wrong with my tennis was my backhand, a really weak backhand.
So it was pretty clear.
So to some degree, the scoreboard will look after itself if you have a winning game plan
that you can actually then take.
So that's the mindset.
It's about creating a company and having a skill base that is superb, that the world
wants to a degree.
So you can't just merely go overseas because you're fat and happy here.
Well, it's a great leadership story on so many levels and so much intrigue.
Intrigue for me and lessons to learn from what you've done over a long period of time.
I want to change tack, Ryan, I'm fascinated to talk to you about this.
We both live in the city of Melbourne that's unfortunately got the record as the most locked
down city in the world and the challenges that came with that in the COVID period.
And I thought your leadership through this time, you have been prepared with your platform
to stand up and question the mainstream narrative and ask, and in fact, I think you were quoted
along these lines.
Where are the checks and balances?
The expert, independent advice, the data, the scientific explanation, including objectives
and finally the pivotal role of parliament.
I had a lot of admiration to hear you talk out in this time.
What compelled you to do that?
Well, look, I think it was a degree of frustration that I could see that many of our civil liberties
and our rights had been significantly eroded and you'd want to believe that it was done
In a coherent and reasonable way.
And I just felt at that time, probably it was not unreasonable to question as an example,
I would say the curfew.
If we just use the curfew as an example, probably as a curfew that tipped me over, I could see
very little medical rationale for the curfew.
For those that don't understand, Melbourne lived through a long extended period where
you went to let out of your house after 9pm and there didn't seem to be a medical reason
Well, I tried to understand where was the medical advice.
And in fact, I was talking to somebody who said, look, there was no medical advice.
It was for police rostering reasons.
It was the police commissioner who requested.
So I then got on the front foot because I think the police commissioner is a really
And I said, look, if the police commissioner is willing to lock up his fellow citizens
on the basis of a rostering benefit, I think that's completely unreasonable and he should
So he then went onto the radio station.
The next morning, apparently, on Neil Mitchell and said, wasn't me.
I wasn't the one who requested this.
And then the chief medical officer came out and said, well, it wasn't me either.
Now I'm not saying anyone else has put up their hand, but in essence, that's a good
example where there was something that was initiated that was not on medical or scientific
And the police, I think reluctantly in essence, have been asked to do it.
They do a lot of difficult things.
They've done difficult things.
Children's playgrounds, forget the curfew, children's playgrounds, stopping children.
I mean, I think I feel for the place.
So I would say you, we will all look back and think there was some remarkable things
asked of our police officers and others that don't really stand reasonable scrutiny.
And Brian, it felt to me through that time and for me, other people in other states of
Australia, very hard to live through and understand the experience that wasn't yours because most
of the other states effectively.
We had nothing like the challenges that Melbourne faced and how onerous it was and healthy people.
For me, the lack of discussion around the social and economic impacts of what it is
to lock down a community.
And we saw some of the numbers coming out in mental health issues and particularly young
kids who missed two years of school, for them there not to be debate in that, Brian, I found
that very challenging.
Look, there's no doubt there was a lot of difficult decisions had to be made.
I certainly accept that there wasn't an easy, but look, to some degree, many of us would
I mean, you and I, I'm sure lived very well, relatively speaking through that.
So it's not about us.
It's just about, you know, I know a lot of small business people and others.
It's been very difficult for them, very difficult for them.
So I just think we need to be careful.
You know, people have fought and died for the rights that we have, and we've got to
be very mindful not to try and erode those quickly.
Although I'm recognizing that it was a very nasty.
Very nasty virus and a very nasty pandemic.
So no one's not saying that there were a number of appropriate policies also.
I just, I think many of us would prefer there was better checks and balances.
And the idea of we're talking collaborative leadership and getting experts and a range
of opinions, people like you who've clearly got a history in these areas.
Can I go to another controversial area, Brian, one that's caused a lot of debate is the biggest
vaccine manufacturer in Australia.
There's a lot of angst around.
I think it's just a big bubble.
It's a little too much.
I think we need to be more version of ourselves.
I think we need to be out there.
We need to be able to we're you know, we've run a lot of try and get our women into the
oligarchy, we need to be able to do more of the commercialised work.
And I think, you know, when we think about the pandemic, it's the mostthing that I think
has saved a lot of people.
It's the way that we've lived in.
I think that we're expecting that by the end of the pandemic, we'll be more sort of
of a global leader in the economic world.
It's one of the big things, it's part of the life of our society.
to do brave things. We ask our police to do brave things. We ask many people to do brave things
for the community. So mandatory vaccine is really about asking fellow citizens to
protect their fellow citizens. That's really what they're asking. So the point of the mandatory is
not, it shouldn't be about you. It's about, is it reasonable for me to be a member of this society
and accepting my responsibility to try and help protect my fellow citizens? So in that context,
I don't think it's reasonable to say, I'm so special. I'm so special. I don't need to be,
I don't need to do that. I'm happy for the rest of you to carry the load. So on balance,
it's very difficult, but on balance, I think it's not unreasonable policy. And I think,
I think the Andrews government's done a good job making it mandatory.
Because it's actually clearly has increased vaccination rates.
Is there a concern that those things aren't, the medical products effectively don't become a choice
and that opens the door? Then we're talking about, I understand your point. And I also understand the
idea that it increases the rate. For me, the concept that individuals have, what is a private
medical discussion effectively taken out of their hands, seems like a huge response to the issue.
Look, you might, but I'm not going to agree with that. I think I've accepted I wear a seatbelt
when I drive a car. Is a seatbelt annoying sometimes? Sure it is. It's hot days, it's
annoying. Why we don't, because the data is pretty clear. Drink driving. I mean,
we have drink driving rules, which are relatively strict. Why do we have them? Because
the societal benefit is greater than the individual's right to get drunk. So I'm not
really sure there's much difference. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't
know. There's a difference here that where I'm saying mandatory vaccination is about your
collective responsibility to your fellow citizens. And you will also get a benefit as well. It's a
dual benefit. But I don't think that, I don't, I don't find this much evidence to say that I'm so
special. I'm so special that I don't need to do that. Well, what I appreciate, and this is what I
think has been a lost art in this time, is that people are nervous to have these conversations,
that if you even ask the question I ask,
can get categorized and you, you know, it seems to me that we're in a, in a, in a position getting
back to leadership where we're not able to, you know, have this conversation or other conversations
like you have in terms of the lockdown, the response to this. It seems as though we've
decamped. You're either in or out, hero or zero. Well, you can say I'm in both, you know,
because I try to be reasonable. I mean, I, I think many things they've done was quite acceptable.
And there are the edges, there are things that I wasn't happy with, which I spoke out about, but
on mandatory vaccination, look on balance. I mean, it's a bit like, is it reasonable to ask
parents to vaccinate their children? Yes, it is. Because, you know, vaccination is fundamentally
important for a number of diseases and the evidence is so compelling. There's probably
been no better medical innovation than vaccination for the last hundred years. So to some degree,
I think it's got lost.
The benefit of vaccination has been lost in the other debate. And I think we need to separate
the two. And I'd really encourage anyone who hears this, please get vaccinated. I don't think
there's any medical rational reason for you not to be vaccinated. Changing gear again, slightly,
Brian, I did read an anecdote where at one point you actually were in hospital yourself and that
you were running CSL from the hospital bed and you're still able to, to, to do your job effectively.
Can I ask you the question?
In terms of being as successful you are as you've been in business,
can you do that with life balance at the same time?
Running, running a company? Look, I think, well, I think you have to, by the way, I think you have
to have a degree of balance. It doesn't mean you're going to be, not going to be really busy
and, and manage your time. But I, I always wanted to have balanced people running the company
because they, they imbue the right values. So I, I took a view that to some degree CSL is a factory.
I would get to work early. We're all, we're all, we're all at work or catching up by 6.30,
7 in the morning. But I always wanted people to be home for dinner. So we didn't have a culture
where people would stay late at night. I don't like that culture in a workplace. I think I want
people to get to work, do your work and go home. That's what society, now, of course, now we've got
remotes, but put that to one side. I think you want people to have balance. And, and I think,
of course, we all had to travel a lot. And so we'd ask a lot of families that,
that obviously people were away a lot of weekends, but, but you're trying to get that
balance right. I, I, I mean, I don't, it's hard to trust someone completely in my view,
if they're so monodimensional, that's, that's, that's all they can see. At the end of the day,
you want an organization that understands they have a social license of what they're doing.
They have responsibility to the staff and to the families. And, and, uh, you,
you cannot be unreasonable what you ask. I want to go, uh, back to where we started a
little bit. The McNamee name, uh, is a synonymous with Australian sport and, uh, and clearly,
you know, Paul's achievements in, in tennis, extraordinary, but, um, people might know
there is an amazing DNA, uh, in the McNamee family on your mother's side, uh, your uncle,
Dick Reynolds, uh, many regard as one of Australian rules football's finest ever players,
a triple Brownlow medalist. Uh, your father, I understand was an extraordinarily talented
sportsman. Can you give us a little bit of that history?
Maybe the overlap for you on what sports done for you in your leadership and your business
I mean, there's no, we're very fortunate in Australia with the Australian culture and
the opportunity to play sport, team sports, individual sports, um, I think is, is, is,
is a wonderful thing we have as part of our society. So yeah, dad, uh, uncle Dick, uh,
mum's older brother. And by the way, mum's turning a hundred on Thursday. So it's a big,
a big, big week for us this week.
Happy birthday. What an extraordinary day.
Yeah, so mum's turning a hundred.
Great. She's great. So we're, we're having it at my sister's place and, uh, you know,
mum's really sharp on the ball. Um, so that's very sweet. But, uh, so mum was the younger
sister of Dick. Um, obviously we found some footage, that wonderful footage that Essendon
showing, uh, of, uh, on Fox of the various, um, Essendon, um, uh, series. There's actually
some footage of mum standing in the, uh, as a young girl, uh, watching uncle Dick run
out in the ground. It was fantastic for all of us to see. So, I mean, that was great.
Uh, but you're right. Dad was, uh, you know, country boy came to the city late, but a great
athlete, uh, in tennis, cricket, football, uh, golf. Uh, when people tell me, you know,
they're too old to take up golf. And I said, well, look, dad took it up at 51. He was off
six at 53. So, you know, that's the standard you have to meet, you know, no excuses, you
know? So yeah, dad was, uh, dad loved his sport. Mum and dad loved their sport. Big
part of our lives. Um, and, uh, it, it takes you to other places. You know, it's, it's,
you meet other people, you learn about winning and losing. You learn about improving. You
learn about yourself, you know, tennis courts. Funnily enough, it's quite a lonely place
to tennis court when you're playing badly, I can assure you. And I obviously had that,
did that too often. But, uh, look, I, you know, I think, yeah, so sport's wonderful.
Yeah. Yeah. Your dad's golfing achievement out of all the stories, we're talking about
the great Dick Reynolds, but that is extraordinary at 51 to take it up and be off six, uh, two
years later is, uh, is quite remarkable. Brian, I had the great privilege to speak
to a range of different leaders, different backgrounds, different, uh, uh, areas of
expertise and, and your story resonates, uh, on so many levels. And we're seeing in our
world of leadership, uh, a number of different dimensions of different leaders that we think
is common to great leaders like yourself. And I wanted to ask you about some of those
dimensions. When I ask you about self-leadership, what does that mean to you?
Ooh, that's not a term I'd use really. Um, I mean, I think, uh.
Why not? Why not self-leadership?
I'm not sure what that, uh, well, you have to,
define it for me.
Well, for me, it's that your sense of self as a, as a person and how you lead yourself
and where that starts. And.
There's no doubt. I mean, you have to be happy in your own skin. There's no doubt. If we,
if we use that as the same analogy. Yeah. You have to be, I mean, you have, people have
to believe in you and your judgment and your behavior and, and the way that you did deal
fairly with people the whole time, your insights. People want to believe that they're, that
the people working for are smart and not, not naive.
I think. And really they, they can trust them. They can trust them. So it's all those
things. So, um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm lucky. Same wife, same, yeah, four kids. That's all
Do you have any daily things that you do in your life that sort of allow you to, to, to
I think you got to stay healthy if you can. Um, so I, I think, I think being healthy is
critical and, and, uh, and trying to look after yourself. Uh, I mean, I'm, I mean, people
will know I, I, I was probably the most, uh, I decline a lot of invitations. I don't
go out to lunch. I don't go, we never did work dinners really. I didn't, I mean, why
would I want to be away from the family? So to some degree it's a matter of, um, I think
doing a job well and then, and then compartmentalizing the work and then, and then going home and
being, you know, a dad and, and, and, and whatever is what I tried to do. And I tried
to play sport on the weekends if I had time, which, uh, which is good.
You seem pretty positive and pretty happy, uh, in every sense. Uh, Brian, uh, we talk
about, uh, leaders who consciously think about how they positively impact others in
their environment. We've heard you going around and, uh, taking days just to engage with,
with your team. How did you think about that?
Uh, look, I mean, I think that, I think the big change I tried to always say, explain
to people, and it's not always that easy, is that our job, the more senior you get,
your job is to help people below you do their job better.
Not the other way around. A lot of people, unfortunately, seem to think when they get
promoted, it's the job of the people below them to make them look good and do their job
better. I go, no, no, no, you've, you've, you've misunderstood. Our job is to make them
do a better job and feel better about the work they're doing. And so it's turning the
organization upside down and understanding that my job is to support the rest of the
organization, not the other way around.
And what's the examples of how, how you would do that?
Well, it's sort of interesting. I mean, I think it's just, it's, it's often, it's often
the little things. I mean, I think I, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,
it's, it's really important. It's really important. It's noticed when you go to a site
or when you go to meet staff, it's just the important to not just talk to the people that
are important. You know, the important people always come up to you. They always come up
to you, you know, and the challenge is to try and find the other folk, you know, who
are doing a good job and try to reach out to them, try to, try to be very welcoming
to them as well. It's, it's something that, that I think that we tried to do as we became
a global company in particular.
We were never trying to make the Germans non-German or the Swiss non-Swiss, but we
did try to get them to understand that, you know, our, we saw our job to really help the
German or the Swiss subsidiary do as well as it could and support them. And, and a lot
of my American colleagues always said when the Australians went into the room, they found
it unusual that they couldn't work out who the boss was. The way we spoke to each other,
they were amazed, you know, that if I wasn't the most knowledgeable person, I'd be happy
to listen to whoever's in the room.
And so, I mean, that was our style and that's what's really, I think, held us in good stead
as an organization. I think that we're, we are good listeners and we try to make sure
that the best people always get an opportunity to tell us what the most important thing is.
Yeah. Well said. We often see leaders are really clear on creating and sharing the vision,
the vision for CSL, quite extraordinary one that you've been able to, to, to create. How
did you go about creating and sharing?
Well, look, you know, and, and look, I mean, I might be, I, I'm not a big fan of the charismatic
leader, by the way. I, I think that, you know, many a flawed person is trying to, you know,
pump themselves up as the great charismatic leader. So I'm a, you know, I think I bring
to that very great Australian cynicism. So just understand that, you know, so I'm not,
I think people, people, uh, will follow you when they, when they learn to, they'll watch
your behavior and they'll watch your decision making.
Not some ridiculous, you know, stumped up speech or presentation, et cetera. I
yawn at most of those things, really. I think it, it's, it's much more granular than that.
You know, people, it's, it's the people want to believe in you and your decision making,
your quality of decision making and your, and, and, and why you're doing things, even if it's
bad news, you know, we've shut plants, we've done some tough things, but if you're willing
to stand up, explain why and why are we doing it and, uh, and, and how we think it's going to
strengthen the rest of the organization, people accept that. So, you know, personally, I would
down-regulate the great charismatic, you know, leader, uh, up-regulate the, uh, the, the person,
the more humble, uh, uh, intelligent listener who, um, who nudges the organization in the
right direction. Yeah. Incredible. I think you might've got a standing ovation that your last
AGM, uh, from the shareholders who got incredible value, clearly out of your leadership. So I think
your humble way was, uh, it was pretty,
effective. We see curiosity as a real, uh, common trait of leaders who are curious and then
curiosity as a way to improve their own learning and development. When I ask you about curiosity,
what does, what does that mean to you? To some degree, there's nothing more
valuable than management determination or people's determination, whether it be in the
sporting field, you know, two, two equivalent footballers, the most determined one seems to
always get the ball. Well, same in business really. So how do you create a culture of determination?
And really, uh, cause determination can overcome, you know, the deficiencies as well. All companies
have deficiencies. So, you know, we, we tried to, and part of it is having a, um, uh, to some degree,
an ambition of what we want to do. Part of it is creating, you know, enemies on the way, you know,
you know, we don't like Collingwood, we don't like X, Y, Z, you know? So we had a view, we didn't
like Baxter, you know, now Baxter was a big elephant in the, you know, the big competitor,
et cetera. I'm sure there are a lot of really good people at Baxter, don't get me wrong, but,
but to some degree, every day of the week, we had a team that said, yeah, okay, how do we,
how do we beat them? A hundred little things. What can we do to be better than them? And that
was really all we tried to do for, you know, 10 or 15 years, every day thinking about, uh, how do
we do it better? How does it serve our patients better? Uh, and, uh, and to some degree, you know,
so if we go back, you know, when I started the company, we were 0.3% of the world market,
you know, in plasma therapeutics and Baxter at that stage, 38%. And we got, we ended up being
38% and they ended up being like 24%. We got them. It's a win. It's a win. And they got bought.
That was the ultimate win for us. They were the giant and we, we brought them down. So I know it
sounds odd, but to some degree, you've got to have a bit of mongrel as well. It's not all about
being happy and nice. You've got to be clear on that.
I'm with you, Brian. I can see it coming through. And I think to me, coming out of the world of,
uh, of AFL football, which was my initial, uh, workplace. And if you said, what was the trait
that you would recruit, you know, you saw these beautiful athletes come and some of them ran the
time trial in, in record time. And then it got to being competitive and got to being having to
grind it out. And you could tell very quickly the ones that were going to make it. We always felt
within the first five or six weeks, you knew who was going purely on how competitive they were and
how they could stand up. And so it's a, it's the trade I think that finds a way, isn't it?
It is. It is. Again, we don't talk about it much.
In leadership programs and those things, because it's hard to, I mean, we had McKinsey come out
the, you know, sorry, not McKinsey, um, Harvard, Harvard business school come out to CSL at one
stage, going to do a case study on us. Cause I don't know. Um, so Harvard do a lot of case study
work and they looked at the company and they said, look, they really didn't want to do a case study
because they said every way they looked at us, we were all strategic disadvantage. We were from a
small market was, you know, difficult, you know, poor price market. Um, we had all,
all strategic disadvantage. So the only thing they could identify was determination. And, uh,
and, uh, and they said, look, very hard to write a case study about it, about determination. So
that's, they didn't, never wrote it.
Well, grit, isn't it? I suppose.
Grit, yeah, that's life. It is life. You know, I, I said to people, you know, when people are
interviewing for people, you know, I said, well, try and look for the dirt under the fingernails.
You know, you know me, I mean, obviously not dirt under the fingernails, but people have done hard
stuff. You want people who've done hard stuff, have put themselves in
comfortable positions. I mean, people like to think their career is going to be mapped out for
them. No, it's not. Not if you're going to get to the top, you actually have to be brave and take
on hard things and difficult things and things you don't know about. You got to get dirt under
the nails and, and have a go and stumble and, you know, get back up. And, and you can, you can
achieve that in your mind, right. With the same values and have integrity along the way.
Of course. And you've got to just accept, but that, that is it. You can't, you can't be
so polished. You can't be so polished that you're, that you're going to, it's obvious that you're
going to ascend to the top. That's that no one has that divine capability. So, you know, and I think
that's what we're, that's what you're going to look for a bit of dirt under the fingernails when
you're trying to promote and promote people and recruit people. I love it. I love it. I'm writing
it down. Communication with clarity, Brian, is something we see as a really common trait of
leaders. And clearly you're, you're a great communicator. How do you think about, particularly
in the end when you're in,
35 countries and, you know, over, you know, coming up to close to 30,000 employees,
how do you communicate with clarity? Well, I mean, I think, I think we're,
we're big on values, always have been, and purpose, values and purpose. And so we haven't
changed those at all. And, and I think that people recognize over time that you're,
you have consistency, nothing really upsets, I think, staff, employees, et cetera. If you're
inconsistent or erratic in the application of those behaviors that support the values,
and, and, and, and, and missions of the company. So we've always been very clear on that, but that
doesn't mean we're not commercial as well. You know, we're commercial, we're smart. We try to
do intelligent things. We're numerate. We're all those things you've got to be as well. So it's not
just a, you know, pie in the sky ambition. You've got to have, you've got to have that and the staff,
you know, recognize it, but it's that consistency that people know what they're signing up for when
they join the company.
And you jump on and doing my research to chat to you today, the CSL values, patient-focused,
innovation, integrity, collaboration, superior performance. It's everywhere in your, in your,
in your website. So clearly you live that every day. Collaboration is one of your values is the
next question. It's, it's a common trait we're seeing in great leaders. How important,
clearly you don't get to your scale without collaboration. How did you go about it?
Well, I think you, first of all, you've got to believe you're going to be a great partner.
So again, collaboration is, is as much about what you're going to contribute to your partner rather
than, you know, ripping their face off or,
sucking the bone marrow out of them and, and moving on. So to some degree, we, we try to be
a fine partner for people where we both share in the benefits. We both, both create value.
And, and really it's a skill because the world's got awfully complicated. I mean,
none of us, you know, it's the supply chain is very complicated innovation.
You've got to source it from various places. And so you've got to, you've got to learn to
manage that well. And you've got to, you've got to build the reputation for doing that well.
And again, you don't do it.
In a naive way, but, uh, and, and we have a lot of teams, you know, so we have a lot of global
teams at CSL. And so trying to manage the cultural complexity, which takes time, um,
time zones are difficult, particularly when you have Europe, Australia, and the U S it's very,
someone has to start late. It's a big ask of anyone. So we're very mindful of that. Um,
trying to not be unreasonable on, on that ask, but, uh, but yeah, collaboration's a fundamental
skill of life. I mean, forget, forget.
I mean, if you can't, yeah, it is, it's a fundamental skill of life and whether it be
on the footy field or whether it be on the home front or whatever. So, uh, yeah, I think that
that's, uh, that's something you, you, you, you, you look for in people.
Yeah. But not all leaders value it the way that you clearly have done. And it's a common trait
that we keep reading it about, you know, asking these two final questions. So Brian, of the
leaders I'm catching up with, um, I'm intrigued to hear what you say, who is the, who has been
the greatest leader in your life?
Hmm. Well, look, I mean, I think that two people that, that probably have had the most
significant impact, I think, I think Muhammad Ali, incredible individual, incredible given
his education, et cetera, what, what he achieved as a person I think was, was, was remarkable.
And probably Nelson Mandela, what he achieved in, in South Africa, uh, I think was remarkable
the way he turned himself around and the values.
And the integrity that he obviously had embedded in him. I think those two people have, I think
would, I'd rate extremely highly.
Have you been students of, of those two and, and, and like all of us, I suppose, have,
have, have consumed, uh, uh, enormous amounts of content of both those individuals? Have
they, has that been throughout your life? Have you?
Uh, look, I'd have, I mean, uh, I hope I don't disappoint you. I'm not, I'm not a great student
of these things. I live a relatively simple life. Look, I'm sorry.
You know, I, I, I like, I like my work. I like my family. I like my golf, like my tennis. You
know, I don't, I mean, I'm not a deep reader, to be honest. Um, so I haven't read many business
books, a few. Um, remember, I mean, I'm a real outlier in business. Uh, and there's, there's.
Why are you an outlier in business? Why would you?
Because that's a, that's a term that was used by these people who've said, you know,
very few people reinvent an industry.
Normally if you do, you can't come from the standard accounting or from manufacturing.
So I did medicine. I didn't do, you know, commerce or, you know, et cetera. So I, I never,
I brought, I guess, to CSL and the plasma industry, a very different mindset. Um, so in that sense,
I'm a real outlier. I brought someone who's educated in medicine, thinking about patients
and improving products, et cetera. I mean, obviously, uh, and, and so I've never been
a great believer in the school board. You know, the school board,
you know, it tends to look after itself. Um, I mean, the biggest complaint from my shareholders
in institutional ones would be they never saw me. I, I never saw a great need to go around
getting pats on the back from them. Why? I mean, I didn't feel I needed it. Um, and I didn't, um,
if I was doing a good job, I'm not sure how they could really give me much more advice.
I mean, I knew the industry, I'm not sure they did. So I was considered really hard to get to,
um, which is okay. I think, you know, you gotta be so private with your time.
So, I used to dollop out my time as if it was a pipette, you know, little drops.
And because each drop's precious, whether it be a dollar bill inside the company or
whether it be an hour of your time, never wait.
Don't waste your time going to stuff and dinners and stuff that has no value, you know?
Well, I feel very privileged to have grabbed some of that little drop of your time, Brian.
It has been a great privilege.
Your outlier thinking is fascinating to me.
And you can clearly see that there's a happy gene that comes with the way you live your
Collaboration, we see, is this incredible common trait that is really sought after.
If you could collaborate with anyone in the world on anything, it doesn't have to be CSL.
It could be a game of golf.
It could be one person that you've thought you'd like to collaborate with.
Who would that be?
Yeah, collaboration.
Well, I mean, I think a tiger's hard to go past.
You know, I mean, tigers, you know, I mean, even post-accident,
his swing didn't look bad the other day on the still.
So, look, I think that, look, I'm happy in my own skin, honestly.
I don't think about these things.
Was there anyone in the, clearly going through it, you said Baxter was the competitor
and you wanted to knock them off and you did.
Was there anyone you thought, God, we could get that person in our world?
I mean, I think that.
But I hate to disappoint you.
I haven't thought about it that way.
I mean, I think that I'm a great believer that CSL is like a complex organism.
And we have, and so like any organism, you have receptors on the surface
and you're trying to reach out.
You're trying to reach out to various things and hopefully you interact
and then you move on.
You're living, it's a living, CSL like all kinds, we're living, breathing organisms.
We're not static, monolithic things.
And so the job was to create this nimble, intelligent, dynamic, fascinating, larger organism.
And that's really what we've tried to achieve.
That's what we're still trying to achieve.
There is no one thing because it's all about doing many things well to create success.
Well, I can't imagine you answering that any other way, Brian,
which was authentic and true to yourself.
I've loved every moment of catching up with you.
Thanks for your time today.
Great history of leadership and success.
In your own very unique style.
Thanks for your time.
Really appreciate it.
Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy,
produced by Matt Dwyer with audio production by Darcy Thompson.
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