This week's guest on the Empowering Leaders podcast is one of the most remarkable stories
I think I've ever heard, that of Dani Laidley.
You're going to hear Dani talking about her rehearsing for this moment her entire life
and that as a 20-year-old AFL player, she met a handful of trans girls in a nightclub
in Melbourne who immediately knew that she was one of them and how they have been supporting
and mentoring her building up to this moment for her entire life.
And Dani talks about the incredible work her and her partner are doing in the transgender
space and the sincere gratitude she has for the platform she's been given on the back
of her incredible AFL career and career as a senior AFL coach.
Dani Laidley, I would have to say, is one of the most joyful, proud and whole people
I've had the privilege to know and to now interview on this podcast, a unique story,
an amazing story.
I hope you enjoy and learn from it like I have.
People like Dani.
Dani Laidley that inspire the work that we do at Alita.
And in particular, I'd love you to look at our Alita Connect signature program.
Head to alitacollective.com.
Alita Connect is a program where we bring together a diverse range of leaders from around the
globe, whether they be from the world of sport, from industry, from the arts or social venture.
The idea of collaboration and learning and sharing and leading with each other is something
we're incredibly passionate about.
Love you to check it out.
Book a discovery call and we'll get back to you.
Head to alitacollective.com.
Huge thanks as always to Jason Nicholas and his team from Temper, Australia and New Zealand
for their support of conversations like this.
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In May 2020, at the end of a crystal meth fuel bender, Dani Laidley was arrested.
During the arrest, Victoria...
Police officers took and distributed photos of her in female attire and makeup streaming
down her face, revealing to the world her gender transition for the first time.
Prior to that moment, we'd only known Dean Laidley, the champion premiership winning
footballer with the West Coast Eagles in North Melbourne, who would go on to be an outstanding
senior coach at North Melbourne Football Club for seven seasons.
Dani has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, explaining her identifying as a female at
such a young age.
It is unbelievable to me to think of the courage and mental resilience.
It must have taken to effectively live two lives while excelling in the brutal, alpha
competitive world of professional AFL football.
Dani, it's great to see you.
And you just genuinely look incredibly happy when I see you at the moment.
Is that how it feels for you at the moment?
Yeah, look, I am.
And thanks for having me this week.
It's been a whirlwind probably two years now.
But that comes with another set of circumstances like we all have when we live our lives and
And friends and work and all that sort of stuff.
So, but truly, the best thing out of it is it's really good to live in the present now
and not having to worry about all the issues that I went through previously.
They've been very well documented now.
And it's just nice to be able to live in the present and even start to plan for our future,
And Dani, is that possible now because you can be your true self?
You don't have to live the two lives now.
Is that why you're able to be in the present?
Yeah, I think so.
It's a funny thing.
When, you know, particularly coaching and towards the end of playing, I really thought
my life was compartmentalised.
I had to be this person to these people, this person to these people.
And I had to be thinking about who I was talking to, where I was, all that sort of stuff.
And obviously, I had a close group of friends in the last probably 10 years that knew.
But I tried to keep them, both my lives, so distant from each other so they wouldn't
collide and, you know, coming to fruition or coming into the public arena like it did.
Now, you're a champion junior player.
You played under-15 state football in Western Australia.
You played the first ever game for the West Coast Eagles.
And then you win that famous premiership in 1996 with North Melbourne and one of the great
So I just can't begin to imagine how you...
You coped with your second life, trying to come to the surface all the time.
Can you explain how you found a way?
I suppose it goes back to...
There's always been the disease of addiction in the Lavey family, going through back to
my, you know, great-great-great-grandfather, all alcoholics and all self-harmed, you know,
committed suicide, except for my dad sort of drinking himself to death.
And I was determined to be the one to break that.
That cycle for my children, my niece and my nephews, you know, the rest of our family,
And then feeling the way I was from a young age, and then, you know, getting picked in
the state team, that was a pretty big turning point because, you know, within, I think,
12 or 18 months, I was at West Perth.
And when the gender dysphoria was loud and roaring, and I can see...
I can say honestly now that...
And I can put a label on it because we've been able to peel back the layers, that it was
little Danielle, you know, misbehaving, wanting attention, and all that sort of stuff.
And to balance that out, not knowing what it was from such a young age, I would stick
my head into my football career, initially playing, you know, at West Perth, and then
West Coast Eagles, and then North Melbourne.
I became a workaholic.
I became a workaholic.
I became my disease of addiction through those early years, which I've only just sort
of found out in the last five or six years that that was the case.
I thought it was me just balancing out, trying to get through, you know, the early years
It did get to the point in my latter years of playing where the gender dysphoria was
just, like, so loud, it was difficult to cope on a day-to-day basis.
And, you know, things that you just...
You know, things that you just normally would go and do.
And that's when the depression and anxiety started to really peak, and then obviously
going into coaching, you know, and perhaps I shouldn't have even done that.
I should have perhaps even explored myself a little bit more at that point in time.
But, and you know what it's like when you have that, I'm going to call it attachment
to the football club or the football environment, it's sort of a bit of a safe space for you.
I ended up going into coaching.
So that's how I was probably walked side by side with both, if you like, through that
I think my most difficult time in my life was when I left the AFL to finally realise
that I need to do something about this.
And then when the gender dysphoria was roaring, because I still hadn't had any professional
help at that point in time, there was no AFL career to stick my head into for the first
time since I was 15.
That was the hardest part in my life, dealing with both and everything that was going on.
There's a theory talking about addiction that all of us have got some form of addiction
and we may not understand it, but it could be addicted to other people's praise, or as
you said, you turn that into being a workaholic or substance abuse at that end.
We understand that as an addiction, but it's our ability to channel that into a way to
have the happiest and most successful life.
It's like, you've been able to do.
Did you feel like there was a time where your teammates had some idea, or was it always
a complete secret?
There was a time, I can share a little bit of a story with you.
When I was at West Coast, we won the grand final after 92.
I didn't get to play that day, it was an emergency.
And through making trips to Melbourne, I had met some trans girls who became my
great counsel, and they knew about me.
Sorry to interrupt, I find that fascinating.
Last time we caught up, you shared this with me, that you said that you walked into a famous
bar, Chasers Nightclub in Chapel Street, people will know that, and the trans girls, as you
described, they knew that you were one of them.
That's incredible to me.
They came up and understood, and they were in your corner, were they, forever since then?
Yeah, yeah, they were.
Yeah, and then what happened?
And that particular night, I was with a group of, at Chasers, I was with a group of about
eight West Coast players, we all went there.
Now, there's no way in the world I would have gone there by myself, but on a Wednesday night,
midweek in February in Melbourne, after the game, as you did back then, you go out for
a drink, and we all went there, and that's where that relationship blossomed.
But it wasn't until the night, the Saturday night, after the 92 grand final.
I didn't really want to be with the team, you know, it was, you're a part of it, but
you're not a part of it.
I played so many games that year, so I organised with them to meet them out.
And then I, about midnight, I think it was, I jumped in a cab, and they gave me the address,
and I had no idea where I was going.
And I ended up at a place on Commercial Road.
And as I walked up to the door, the security guy goes,
Do you really want to come in here?
And I've gone, Yeah, why not?
So I've walked in, and straight away, it was like, people coming up to me, what are you
What are you doing here?
And I quickly realised, I was in Three Faces, the biggest gay club in Melbourne at that
And what happened was, there was, anyway, I met the girls, but there was a sons of some
people who worked at North Melbourne.
So it was, you know, the...
The whispers started to happen, and, you know, I remember walking into the North Melbourne
I sort of carried that night and those whispers, because it did get back to me, that, you know,
what was I doing at this, you know, gay club?
And even though none of the players ever said anything to me, whenever I walked into the
footy club, I always felt it on my shoulder.
You know, I have spoken to...
A number of players that, you know, I played with during that time, we heard a few things.
We found no reason to talk to you about it.
You're a good person, and you could play good footy, and that's what we were after.
And I, you know, you look back now, and you think, oh, wow, you know, what could have
But maybe at that point in time, anyway, it's just, you know, everyone's a lot older now.
This is happening in the early 90s, mind you.
That was sort of the inkling of, not specific to...
What was really me, but sort of a roundabout, if that makes sense.
Danny, I remember hearing you say, you know, in the last couple of months when this story
has come out, that there's always been a rumour that a gay AFL player will come out.
And, of course, we know that the percentages tell you that there would have been gay players
that haven't chosen, for their own reasons, to become public with it.
And you're sitting there going, wait till they hear my story.
Wait till they hear what I'm going to go.
I mean, my sense is, Danny, you know, being a player in the same era as you, that if you
had have expressed that to your North Melbourne team, my sense is that they would have put
their arms around you, like we all are now, and feel incredibly proud of you in lots of
ways that you've been able to find a way.
Do you think that would have been, if you had have been able to do it then, it would
Look, only with the information that I know now, from what they say, but I still don't
believe or I don't think that I would ever have got to that point, you know, and maybe
that was a sign of the times of my, you know, individual situation, you know, but what I
do know now is that everyone that I play with, everyone that I coach has been so very, very,
very supportive and, you know, love me for who I am and can say I'm healthy and they
can actually see I'm...
Well, obviously...
I'm obviously a different person on the outside, but a different, much more relaxed, wholesome
person where I can sit down and relax.
It was only last Friday in Melbourne, we caught up with Daniel Pratt, who I coached at North
Melbourne, and he was on the doco saying, you know, I've never heard you talk so much.
We spent seven hours together Friday afternoon and had some lunch and had a...
Had a few drinks and had just the best time ever, you know, because he's been living in
Perth, working for Simmo, so we've been catching up over here.
So my relationships with a lot of people are even better now than when they were back then
I have to take responsibility for that.
That's on me for what I was dealing with, how I was dealing with it.
I just wouldn't let anyone in too close, whereas I can do that now.
It's a brilliant documentary, Two Tribes, that you've made, and I encourage everyone
listening to this to go and see.
And that was one of my favourite moments, you walking into Adam Simpson's house, who's the
current coach of the West Coast Eagles and a premiership team mate of yours, and around
the table, Peter Bell and Spider Burt and Daniel Pratt, you mentioned, and just watching
your teammates put their arms around you.
And it was like a normal night.
You would imagine having a glass of wine and a beer with your great mates.
You know, as I would expect.
I'm not surprised by...
But it's still beautiful to see that unfold the way it did.
I mean, when you played, you were known as the Junkyard Dog.
You had that tag given to you.
I think Peter McKenna might have even given you that label.
And we knew you as this aggressive, combative...
Your teammates called you Tunnel because you just had this tunnel vision about the way
Can you relate to that person now in your city?
I always struggled with the name.
Let's say the Junkyard Dog.
Well, and I know from the commentator's point of view, it was a term of endearment.
And, you know, any footballer, I think, would be happy to be known as that.
With me, it was a part of that vicious cycle of gender dysphoria, being a workaholic in
my career, and just being this uncompromising beast that would do anything to win.
You know, very hard.
And then, you know, all of a sudden, you get this Junkyard Dog, and you're thinking,
oh, my God, you're getting put up on a pedestal for this.
But it's even further removed from, you know, who I really was.
But so that vicious cycle that, you know, we've touched on today certainly took its toll.
Danny, you finished up your footy career eventually, 35 years in the industry.
You coached North Melbourne incredibly successfully.
Dealt with all of that.
But once you lost that routine, as you said, it was your safe place.
Life fell apart there for that period of time.
You've spoken really openly about, you know, falling into drug use and suicidal thoughts.
And then ultimately being arrested, as I said, the intro and ending up in the front
page of the newspaper around the country.
Can you tell us how bad was that day when that all unfolded?
Yeah, the day was, well, that whole, to be honest,
from the sort of the end of 2018, let's say 2019.
That was the year for me from hell.
I didn't have my football career to stick my head into.
And, you know, I was in a relationship and got introduced to cocaine for the first time
at 48 years of age.
And I think with everyone who knows, particularly my football friends,
that was the most surprising part for them.
Given my stance on drugs, I was never a big drinker because of the stuff that we spoke about.
You know, and I wasn't a big gambler until sort of that period of time.
I got bored of gambling.
Mind you, I did pretty well.
I spent a lot of time studying it.
And again, I think this is that addictive personality that you're talking about.
So I was doing that.
I was studying every night, the NFL or the NBA or the Premier League to get results.
And then I got bored of that.
So then I started drinking and I've never been a big drinker and I hate hangovers.
So I sort of gave that away pretty quick.
And then the drugs came along.
And it's really interesting.
When we as people find ourselves under stress or under pressure, things aren't going well
life we turn to things that we're we're good at um or you know if we're you know we're also
unhappy we we turn to things to numb ourselves and certainly in that that period of 12 months
2019 um i was caught in that in that black hole and then invariably it got worse in the early
months of 2020 i entered back into a relationship um with um a person yeah that did that didn't go
down too well so it was and so through all that 2019 um it wasn't till towards the end of the
year that i really broke down um and told my uh psychologist at the time that i think this is
what's wrong with me and that was because my mental health was i was really
struggling depression anxiety the gender dysphoria the drug use i became it just
grouped me so quickly then i was ashamed embarrassed because of my views on it to
other people of reaching out to anyone to say hey this has happened to me and we know drug use
doesn't discriminate but the key factors were there of why you self-sabotage yeah getting um
i actually rang the police that night i went out and stood about out an apartment which i own in
in st kilda and uh rang the police um and i think that was my way of trying to just get off this
toxic dance floor you know and it was a cry for help but what i didn't realize was what was going
to happen from when i got arrested when i was at my most vulnerable and i can say i hadn't slept
for i think like nine days
leading up to that um i was a complete um mess i was a shell of a person i did self-harm only two
weeks before that and was lucky to be found by my um by a girl who who lived with me you know
otherwise it could have ended up very badly um so this is what i was going through at all that
point so when you talk about that night of being arrested for me it was this is the best way to
get off this toxic dance floor the decisions through that sort of 12 14 months were not good
ones that period cost me dearly but obviously you know getting arrested and then with what
happened publicly i didn't make any mistakes there that's that's not on me at all but it was
very very difficult for the family and it was difficult how i was treated um at the st kilda
police station then in the in the custody center before i was arrested and then i was arrested and
went to prison and even to talk about that now when when i say go to prison like it gives me
like really huge anxiety of you know putting me back in that in that place danny you mentioned
there the biggest heartbreak for you was the impact on on your family and your three kids and
through that time you accidentally sent some pictures to your two daughters of you dressed
as danny earl and on the back of that um you know i believe you've lost all contact with your two
daughters is is that
still where it's at and and that must be incredibly shattering to you as a as a result of what's
happened yeah um so um with the snapchat pictures i i've never had a chance to because it happened
right just before i got arrested so i haven't had a chance to talk about that at all and then
obviously what happened publicly they've sort of retreated you know and what i've tried to do is
put myself in their shoes
with the you know on top of my fear shame embarrassment um you know what they went
through you know having um a parent who had somewhat of a a public um profile then adding
this on on top of it it's been very very difficult for them uh for the girls but but i will say i
have for the first time in a long time received two texts uh from each of them in the last
week and i know it's only a very very small step but for me that's huge i just hope and live for
the day that you know we're back we're back where we were yeah incredible danny and i can see that
the joy that that brings to you and the smile on your face and i i want to talk about kane your son
as well and again to see you know talk about leadership and compassion and someone that i
think his words were that the two of you had this
unbreakable bond and he's been a tower of strength for you as as your son and you must be really
proud of of him and the way he's been able to find his way as well in this sort in this story
yeah and and you know he probably took the brunt of it publicly you know because i was i was in
prison so he he's outside being chased and harassed by the um by the media um he's organizing
you know the north people from anthony stevens and darren crocker and greg ryan from the
northbound football club and then they were organizing the players association and the
coaches association so i'm really proud that he was able to stand up at that point in time
regardless of what was happy happening to um look after me um look after his his family
and get the best outcome um
for us so i would never forget that and you know even since that day um he comes to a lot of
um speaking engagements that i that i do i think he was the star on the uh on the documentary
um you know and i i think you know that's all we can we can ask of our children and i don't think
i don't feel any less of the way the girls have reacted as opposed to caves reacted you know we
all we all take uh
issues and use or and make decisions for um you know my eldest daughter's got a young family
herself and you know i'm sure she wanted to protect them as well you know and my my youngest
daughter um you know basically took off and came and lived in perth for a few years just to get
away from the uh from the fishbowl um that was melbourne and danny your partner donna again is
just an incredible story and you you understand the two of you are going to be together for a
great one together and we're boyfriend and girlfriend through school on again and off again
and she had no idea about your gender dysphoria and when the lowest moment your life came around
she enters your life again uh with this unconditional love she doesn't care if
you're dean or danny or transgender she loves you for you it's what we all want in life isn't it
someone who just sees us for who we are without concern about uh any of
um the baggage that we are worried about ourselves it's amazing for you must be
you know really uh proud and lucky to have a partner like donna yeah you know i i think
you know and donna says you know how can you not understand that you just want to love
a person which that line has gained great uh notoriety out of the um out of the out of the
um but um for for me um
i i think i've learned this that um it doesn't matter who or what you are you're either a good
parent good bad or a different person you know it doesn't matter whether you're
um a cisgender guy or female or you're transgender you're either a good person or you're not and i'm
hoping that i am a good person and you know that's how how donna sees it and yes i i am and
i'll say we um i'm a good person and i'm a good person and i'm a good person and i'm a good person
are very lucky because, you know, she did come back into my life
prior to it going pear-shaped, a bit more of a distance between us,
her living in Perth and myself living in Melbourne,
but we caught up in Melbourne and we caught up in Bali
and things like that.
And certainly it was growing reasonably quickly prior to that 2019.
But then during that period, and again, this is my behaviour at the time,
we would talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, and then I'd go AWOL for a couple of weeks.
And that really frustrated her because she has got a sixth sense
about some of these things and, you know,
she would always check welfare check.
How are you going?
And then I wouldn't reply.
And that would put her into a spin on the other side of the country,
only about worry because I had sort of touched on I wasn't going that well.
And then even to when I got arrested and with Danielle,
I wouldn't even, I didn't tell her either.
And it wasn't until then when I did get diagnosed sort of September 2019,
it was then my initial thoughts were how am I going to break this news
to all and sundry family, friends, I'll say the AFL family the right way.
And we started to put a strategy together of, okay,
family, then friends, then we had a planned meeting with the AFL to see
if they would stand with me or beside me.
By the time all that was getting organised, it was all too late.
It became public.
So, yeah, Donna's an absolute ripper.
We have fun together.
And the best thing about us is we can actually be ourselves, both of us.
You know, we laugh, we giggle, we cry together, we go to the beach together,
we go shopping together, we work together, and it works really well for us.
And, Danny, you're doing an incredible thing, I feel,
for a lot of families that are going through the same situation you grew up with
but without a pathway forward and to break this ground for someone
as high profile and successful as you've been to now,
show that there is a way forward, that you can get healthy
and you can be yourself and you can share this story.
It's an amazing story of leadership, which is the basis for this podcast,
is sharing what great leadership looks like in different settings.
And yours is so unique.
I use the term success leaves clues, and I'm fascinated
because we see some patterns in that.
I want to ask you about those patterns and dimensions,
starting with, Danny, the idea of self-leadership.
It's hard to lead someone else unless you understand,
and your journey to understand yourself is the most remarkable one
I've ever heard in my life.
Can you share with us what that means to you, self-leadership?
You know, it's for lots of different reasons.
There was lots of hurdles with me.
You know, I get this from my son.
You know, he said to me, there's only one person that can do this,
and that's you, and you need to be you,
and you need to...
You need to be strong, and you need to live your life.
And by doing that, people will see you how I see you,
and then with the platforms we've had through the book
and the documentary, your leadership or your role modelling
will be just you living as you and showing people
that you can get through that, you can be honest and can be raw
You can be vulnerable, which I think does, in society these days,
that attracts people.
I know now by me being me, and to be honest,
I didn't ever think I would end up like this.
It was just me wanting to be me, living my life,
and I've sort of been anointed as a transgender community role model,
and at first I was a bit, oh, I don't know about that, you know,
because generally we know in any change or any sort of leadership,
the first person who walks through the door usually cops one on the beak.
And, you know, I thought, well, if that has to be me, that's me,
but I'll do it my own way, you know,
and when we're talking about this self-leadership.
So by living my life and by having the platforms,
which I'm very lucky to have,
that people can't be what they can't see,
and that was certainly me growing up.
But now Donna and I both literally get hundreds of messages a day,
and particularly over the last month with the doco,
parents, grandparents, transgender people themselves saying,
thank you for what you're doing, and we're just living our life.
But we're living in a way that...
that people see part of our life in public,
and that gives great reason for families of transgender people,
or transgender people themselves to be able to be authentic
and be themselves, present their best possible self.
And I think that's all that I'm doing.
Danny, what a gift from your son, isn't it?
To say to you, you need to listen now, we need you to be happy.
We love you for being yourself and go about doing that.
And we're here to support you.
That is incredible.
That's an incredible gift, isn't it?
And an insight for him, as you said, going through his own challenges,
of course, with a high-profile parent and having to work through it.
A lot of people live in their own version of not being themselves, aren't they?
Yours is a little more profound, but a lot of people just are trying
to be someone else all the time for whatever reason.
And so I think you're clearly paving the way for transgender people,
but I think for other people as well.
It's like it's an unhappy world, isn't it?
To not be yourself is unhappy.
Yeah, and, you know, in the doco and the book, there's lots of different,
there's the disease of addiction, there's mental health,
there is gender dysphoria, there is a little bit of sexual orientation,
all these things which everybody goes through.
It's just, it so happened that I, you know, I was reasonably talented
at something that, you know, our nation loves,
and, you know, I'm thinking that's why I have been gifted this platform
with the support.
And I've always said about it that I'm happy to be seen and, you know,
show some of our life and what we do on Instagram or whatever it might be.
And I think that's a great thing, but there's also time
to pull back and just have our time and balance that out.
Because, you know, in this world, there's lots of, you see,
lots of demonstrations, and I don't know if you remember,
there was an anti-trans rally earlier in the year in Melbourne.
It was actually round one of the AFL season,
and North and West Coast were playing at Marvel.
And Donna and I took a couple of our friends who barracked for West Coast,
and we all went along, and it was quite vitriolic towards me
in the city that day, and I really felt it for the first time.
But then as we got closer to the ground with West Coast and North supporters,
all of a sudden there was this outpouring of love,
and they were at the game, and, you know,
you feel like a bit of a rock star a little bit.
But, you know, I truly appreciate it when people will come up and say,
you know, well done.
You know, good on you.
But then later that night, we went out for dinner,
and we were getting into an Uber, and this guy walked around the back
of the Uber, recognised who I was, took to me, black eyes,
said, I've got a knife in my pocket.
I know who you are.
I'm going to kill you.
And there was like a scuffle with some family and that.
But you'll never see me in any protest.
Or I think there's far better ways to get your messaging across in a more loving,
caring, with science in some degree, in research and experience from me.
And that's the way we will do it.
And I think from afar, if you talk about leadership, you always – you have
and I have, and you've looked at someone from afar,
and, you know, I really like what they do in regard to this, this, and this.
You'll take that part out of it.
And really, that's what I hope people will do with me.
Yeah, I'm sure that's what's happening.
I find discrimination such a bizarre thing, isn't it?
When you see you as a happy person being yourself, how can you look past that
and not want that for another person, regardless of what shape, colour, size,
persuasion they are?
I'm always disturbed by that incident and hearing that.
And that is still something you're going to have to deal with at various stages.
I want to talk to you about leaders being really conscious of having a positive impact
in their environment.
And you've done that throughout your whole life.
Now you're doing it in a different way.
Is that something you think of now, that you can have that positive impact daily?
And that's – we're living that right now, certainly over the last – since the book
came out, about 14 months.
The only difference about – and in a way, it's still coaching, but it's just coaching
from afar, or role modelling, whatever term you want to use.
I suppose you don't get the cut – and this is what I'm looking for – the cut and thrust
of coaching a football team, with what we know.
You don't get the cut and thrust of the win and loss each week.
It's really creating a culture and a society, and it's still through education and developing
And I sort of miss the cut and thrust of the win-loss each week, but really enjoy doing
what we're doing now.
But football is win and loss.
What we're doing now can save lives.
Danny, creating and sharing a vision is another dimension we talk about in this forum, about
– and you have done that in your world as an AFL senior coach and winning premierships
Is there a different vision that you've got now for Danny Laidley in your second half
And is that something that you're conscious of and you want to go about creating that
vision and sharing it?
Yeah, I'm – because the doco and the book were sort of both two and a half years in
the making, we sort of put this time to be, okay, well, what's next after this?
And we've been slowly talking about it.
And we probably thought 2024, if it was to be back to what I grew up doing, which is
playing footy – not playing, but coaching.
And what does that look like?
Because I still have a passion for that.
Or is it the gender and diversity training that I'm doing in the corporate world at
Is it opportunities that I'm – we're now just dotting the I's and crossing the
T's with the AFL in regard to diversity and inclusion training?
Within clubs, their stakeholders, right down to community level.
That's the really, really hard one for me at the moment.
So I'm sort of just doing – having a look at everything, whatever I or whatever we decide
to do, it has to align with the values.
And that – you know, when I – when I – when I – when I – when I – when I – when
I went through that bad shot, and I was working with my psych, you know, I built
some pillars around being the best person that I could be first and getting myself right
and then being the best partner, parent, friend, colleague as I could and what that looks like.
And the last one was educating.
And supporting transgender community.
But also – and this is not trying to change the world by any stretch of the imagination.
Just pass on education and my life experiences of what I've gone through, because I have
no doubt all the training that I've done through the book, through the documentary,
I have men and women who come up and say, you know what, I just didn't get it.
I couldn't get my head around it, but you've opened my eyes.
And you know, if I ever come in contact with anyone, or if it's a family or a friend, I
will be there to support them.
And then when that happens, it's not quite like winning the grand final, but it's – it
You know, so to set that pathway, if you like.
So that's the first – that's the first step, is to really build that relationship
and that relationship to success.
I've probably been now at my busiest building that, with all the bits and pieces that we've
done over that period of time.
But it'll certainly revolve around – the number one would be helping the transgender
And again, in the right way.
So Donna's just gone on the book.
on the board of Trans Folk WA.
They're a very small organisation, the only one here in Western Australia.
So we want to be able to use our contacts and support all those people
and their corporates and hopefully bring in some more funding
to the organisation so we can do more things.
The reality is I would say that would be the most significant thing
Yeah, what an incredible legacy, Danny, it is.
And you're teaching all of us.
You're teaching me by sitting down and having this conversation
and saying, I know you and I know the person you are
and I know your mates and your teammates and it does.
It normalises it.
As you said before, really, you can't understand what you haven't seen before
and as much as we think we're open-minded, really someone has to take the path
and show us and see the person that you are.
Amazing success that you're creating for others who maybe didn't get through.
Maybe they didn't get past the milestones and, you know,
you had your moments where it might have been possible for you
to be able to live past some of the challenges.
So it's an amazing story that's unfolding and great credit to you.
Curiosity is a word I want to use because I ask everyone
about this idea of being curious and that's how they learn.
Is that real for you?
Is that something that has come up for you a lot?
You know, if I – I can give you some examples in my coaching career.
Firstly, North Melbourne Football Club, a small niche football club in the AFL,
not much money, but had been pretty successful over the last 30, 40 years.
Gone through some patches.
So I went and spent a couple of years in the off-season with a club called
Charlton Athletic.
English Premier League.
Small club, not much money, but their success,
how they rated their success in the Premier League was being in the Europa Cup,
competing with these big clubs.
So to scratch away at that and find out what I could take from that.
And then I've always been fascinated with the New England Patriots as an organisation,
not so much on the ground, but, you know, how Robert Kraft,
built and bought the stadium and has grown the brand, you know,
from patsies to Super Bowl champs many, many times.
I've done that in that sphere in my life all the time.
If you walk into my house, I've got books upon books and upon books.
And I'm not a great reader as such.
It's having them there as a resource to go, oh, I've got that.
I'm going to go and read up on that.
Or I'm going to go and find out.
Or I'm going to go and talk to someone.
And I suppose now I'm not at the start of that journey,
but I think I'm still in its infancy in regard to the rainbow community
and the transgender community because I'm still learning about myself.
And having been too scared to dip my toe in there for what possibly would be said.
So I'm sort of trying to eat as much as they,
and now, and get to the coalface of the community, you know,
where the action is, what people, what their experience, how they're living,
what are their barriers?
Is it the cost of, I don't like the word transition,
but it's a very, very expensive cost that comes onto you to be the best person
All these things.
And I think if you stop being curious or that curiosity leaves you,
maybe it's time to start then looking in other areas, you know,
but that's always fascinated me and that's all we learn, you know.
History and Michael Malthouse always would say to me,
history is a wonderful teacher.
History is a wonderful teacher.
And I would go, oh, okay.
So if you want to know something, go back.
What happened here?
How did they do that?
And then the issue or the way forward may be a little bit different, but it just, it's
the way you can get yourself thinking about breaking down barriers and how to be the best
you can be so you can bring people along with that journey.
Communicating with clarity, Danny, is a dimension we talk about a lot.
And you've gone about that in a really profound way.
Produced by Luke Tunnicliffe and JamTV, a great friend of mine.
He's done a fantastic job with you.
You've written a book.
You're speaking about this in a very articulately, and you're getting your story across really
Have you really thought about it or is it just unfolded and you've been able to just
take the opportunities?
No, it hasn't just unfolded.
It may seem that way.
I've spent a whole lifetime of rehearsing this, Luke.
it's with real clarity now that I can communicate with the way that I feel and
that's very therapeutic for me now in so many different ways the way it came out I also think
the narrative of how it all came out was quite unkind going back a few years and I wanted to
articulate my story and my my family story so people would understand my journey and and our
journey and and and and take control of that narrative but also the keeping it trying to
keeping it quite basic using a lot of analogies from past experience in you know wrapping football
analogy of what I was dealing with with gender dysphoria or and getting people to get give them
a light bulb moment where they go ah okay and keep it very simple for them that way they can take
one or two gold nuggets away and that if they go and tell another two or three people and then
those two people go and tell two or three people that's how we grow education that's how we grow
um and you know even culture in society it's fascinating to me Dan I love what you said I've
been rehearsing for this my entire life and I go back to you you know in your early 20s you walk
into a nightclub in Melbourne you meet a group of trans girls and they say to you some stage
you're going to tell this story and we're here for you is that the rehearsal to get to this point
that it was always going to happen so and that yes it was but that was a very slow burn
at the start they I wouldn't I didn't say anything so it was I'm asking all these questions
just fishing away fishing away just trying you know uh trying to walk away with something um
because you know even in the late 80s there's no there's no internet still back in those days
you know the resources were few and far between um you know but from that time and then
the other times and and there was there's been quite a few but it's always been at that point
secret safe with us you're we're here if we um if you need us um reach out any time um I went
through a really bad stage in my mid to late 20s um and my marriage at the time wasn't going that
and the genesis four and I said you're not I'm leaving I'm leaving I can't do this anymore I
don't even know what this thing is blah blah blah and they said no no no you stay there we're here
to support you through that period and they were and and they did um and you know they could have
been like the Victorian police they could have done a hell of a lot of things um and I'm very
very grateful for that
Danny who's been the greatest leader in your life
I'd say the the person there's probably three who got me through my young years and teenage years
and got me to that point of when I did get picked in the state school boys um then obviously I had
some great coaches you know coming through but I'll say my first football
coach is his name was Tom James um so I had him all through my um junior career he actually lost
his uh only son to leukemia when we were about 11 and he became a father figure to me um and it
was always talking about you know working hard being a good person because at that point in time
in my life I was still I was quite intense I was quite intense I was quite intense I was quite intense
I wouldn't let many people in um and he really took me under my wing and I felt really safe
with him and I could be um the best person um that you know he made me the best person but also um
hopefully I'm thinking a good um a good person as well as a good footballer and he influenced
me all the way up until I was 16 and then he left and became um
the Colts coach which which is for the people who you know interstate um is the equivalent to the
TAC under 18s competition um so when I left junior footy he still was my coach um and then he became
the the um the chairman of the West Perth football club and the chairman of the Fremantle Dockers
um and he was always there for me the whole way through to have uh not too much of that
do more of this and do more of that and do more of that and do more of that and do more of that
um and I was it was I was so very very grateful um until he he passed away I had a another one
Paul Lucas who did exactly the same thing uh as my cricket coach um because look I was lucky enough
to play state cricket up until for WA up until you know 1984 I think it was um with our friend
Skinny Brayshaw um um and he did exactly the same thing um and he did exactly the same thing
um life at home not that flash um so they just made you safe and feel felt worthy and self-esteem
um so I'm forever grateful for that so but overriding those two um is my my nana she died
in 2015 she was 94 and because of the disease of addictions he outlasted two husbands and three
her three children who were diseased and she died in 2015 and she was 94 and because of the
disease of addiction as well and I lived with her for quite a few years from a very young age
and she loved me for me um she provided a safe space she kicked a footy out the back with me
every single day or in cricket season she you know handsaw a piece of wood um make a cricket
bat and I'd bowl to her or she um bowled to me for hours upon hours upon hours and she was just
the most beautiful
uh woman and I I'm thinking that I learned a lot of those
stuff that we talk about now has been ingrained in me from you know a very a very young age um
and then you get coaches you know um I had Dennis Cometti he was my first coach um
and then I had Alexander, John Tide, Mick Malthouse um then Dennis Pagan um
you know they all bring bring their own you know Mick was more of a caring loving
um person but but particularly hard on on people um you know I never I'll never forget one thing
he said to me he goes I'll never give you a pat on the back um for the ability that your mum and
dad gave you and I just thought wow that's that's pretty good you know because as we know to to
be successful in the AFL competition you need to be successful in the AFL competition you need to be
you need more than that um and you know then obviously Dennis he was very rigid very structured
um you know um basically well whatever was going in your life when you're driving the car park
take your head off put it over there get up on the way out which was you know um it was a sign
of the times back then so I've had a lot of people who have shaped me over and I've been very very
lucky uh for that
I love asking that question because you see the influence don't you from a young age and how lucky
you are to have and your grandma a remarkable person and it's incredible to be able to listen
to that impact that still reference that now and understand what that had on you final question
Danny I love asking this as well we're passionate about collaboration and what happens when you get
great people together and how that works now and leadership's changed from hierarchy now to
we think a healthier space where you do tend to collaborate if there was anyone in any of
your passions that you would love to collaborate is there a name that springs to mind it could be
um in the chapter you're experiencing now or something else you're passionate about is there
a person that you would love to collaborate with in the sporting field um talking about the cut
and thrust of winning and coaching journeys and developing people and leaving a legacy um and I
actually know this person reasonably well um Ange Postacoglu like you know he's um
I very first met him when he was coaching the um the Victorian or the Australian under-19s
um team when I very first came to Melbourne in like mid-90s um and just to see his journey so
and I've had a few chats with him over the years but to be able to just
walk beside him and have a chat something like that would be would be awesome um
and I suppose you know I'm that's not just to do with football world football or our football
the other um the other person um is um a a young trans girl who I've known now for a few years
and she is such a role model and her way of
leaving a legacy is she's an actor um and she's done some great played some great roles in um TV
series um as herself as a transgender girl um and um I'm a bit of a dinosaur now um and this
young girl her name is Evie just to get the work on a collaboration in really getting into
the hands of young transgender people um and and connecting with them because she certainly knows
you know all about it and she has been one remarkable uh girl yeah Evie McDonald
Danny your documentary is called Two Tribes and I love your final answer we
had the sporting side of your world and then this new chapter as you said
whether you like it or not you're an ambassador and a leader for this new community which
you are embracing and having an incredible impact on I I feel fortunate to have existed in the first
community the the AFL football community and I hope you feel that all of us have got our arms
around you and and your story and couldn't be more proud of the courage and the the way that
you've gone about it see you so happy and healthy it's just a brilliant story it's great to sit down
and see you in the shape that you're in and uh look forward to um catching up many more times
in the future thanks for joining me today
oh no thanks Luke thanks for having us like you know it's been it has been remarkable um and you
yourself now on on a few occasions um have been very respectful uh wanted to learn wanted to
listen and you know I'm I and Donna we um we are very uh grateful um that you now know a little bit
more about our world and I'm sure that you will be one of the people who um you know any poor
behavior that does happen to you and I'm sure that you will be one of the people who um you know
to bypass you you'll stop and pull it up because it is not acceptable and we are all human so
again thank you my friend uh really enjoyed it thank you for listening to the empowering leaders
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