How do you make the decision to save a life,
knowing you'll potentially put your family and reputation at risk?
G'day, it's Luke Darson.
The idea of self-improvement and leadership,
both on and off the field, has been a lifelong passion of mine.
With one of my oldest friends, we created a leader collective
and have had the privilege of working with thousands of leaders
in education, sport, industry and the arts
that have helped shift to what we see as the 21st century style of leadership
where everyone has a voice.
In this podcast, we hear stories from these iconic leaders.
I sat down with Craig Foster to discuss using sport as a platform for good
and ensuring it not only plays a role,
but is an active participant in the fight for what's right.
Well, Craig Foster has had a remarkable life story,
born in Lismore, northern New South Wales, of British and Irish descent,
going on to become a legend of the round ball game.
Post-professional sporting life has seen him excel in the media
as a multi-logy award winner.
He's a winning broadcasting legend with SBS television.
In 2021, Craig was appointed a member of the Order of Australia
for significant service to multiculturalism,
to human rights and refugee support organisations and to football.
Craig was the driving force behind the successful return to Australia
of Bahrainian refugee Hakeem Al-Arabi, who was imprisoned in Thailand in 2018.
Craig united and led a global coalition of advocacy groups,
charities and high-profile Australians to secure Hakeem's release.
Craig is a Bachelor of Law.
Master's in Sports Management.
Member of the Australian Multicultural Council.
A director of the Nangala Project,
supporting better outcomes for our Indigenous communities.
And on every level, that is an extraordinary life of leadership.
Craig Foster, thanks for your time today.
No, it's a pleasure.
Well, it's been fun, I can say that for sure.
But there's plenty more to go, I hope.
You've jammed a lot in, Craig.
And I think I'm going to start with a quote that I think is attributed to me.
And please fact-check me if I get anything wrong along the way.
But you, I believe, said this.
The real power of a sporting career,
is the platform it gives you to do something else.
It's why I work so hard now with human rights.
I wanted to start, Craig, by asking you,
it was an outstanding sporting career.
Why has the next part of your life meant so much?
Because it's just about people.
And many of the lessons that we learn in sport are the same.
And I've just taken those into the rest of my life.
In fact, I've tried to make them authentic.
You know, what I've learned as I've gone on is that many of the propositions,
the slogans that sport promotes a lot, you know,
aren't necessarily as real as we'd like them to be.
When we're young athletes, we think that, you know,
sport has this extraordinary power.
We think that it's about people.
It's about humanism.
It's about solidarity and equality and all those things.
But sport struggles to live up to that.
So, you know, the older I've got,
I've committed myself to trying to make that occur.
I happen to believe that if sport does become more people-centred,
and that means speaking out for people who are facing injustice,
for racial equality, for gender equality, all of these things,
then the world will be a far better place.
Yeah, it's a great thought, Craig.
And I clearly want to get into your incredible work in the space of human rights
and multiculturalism.
But just picking up on what you said,
the world that was my sporting upbringing was Australian rules football.
And Australian rules football has taken leadership roles a lot in a number
of different areas from, you know, areas such as diversity
around many different facets and specific theme rounds around our Indigenous
population and also equality in terms of sexuality as well.
There are a bracket of people, Craig,
that say I need my sport to be a sanctuary away from the heaviness
of dealing with these things.
I want to go to the foot.
I just want to support my team.
Do I need at the same time to have to deal with these issues?
You would say yes.
You would say sport needs to step up more than it is.
Well, I'd say two things.
Number one is that the people who play sport are human beings,
and they have the same right as you to speak about any issue
that they feel comfortable about.
I happen to think that human rights are important and that we should all
be helping others.
And why should athletes be different?
It's absolutely no different.
One of the reasons why that's been kind of propagated within the sports
industry is because it's been led largely by sponsors
and by commercial interests.
It's a bit like when you talk about climate action in Australia.
You know, clearly fossil fuel companies are still very much shaped,
shaping the narrative of both government and many people in society
and industry and business are a big part of that, as is sport.
You don't see sport in Australia being as prominent as even the finance
industry and others at the moment.
So I think this separation of athletes and therefore sport,
because athletes are sport, the rest of the people involved are there
just to facilitate for athletes to play.
That's their job.
The concept that they're not citizens, the concept that they're not human
beings, the concept that they shouldn't be cared,
they shouldn't care about all the aspects of social and civic
and even political life when they're playing a sport is,
to my mind, just completely ridiculous.
I know that that's what people have been led to believe.
I know that's the way that sport has conducted itself,
but I think it's wrong.
And sport has contributed to much harm in the world, by the way.
And one of the reasons it's contributed to a huge amount of harm is because
of that, you know, that kind of propaganda telling all the people
everywhere that, well, well, sport's exceptional to society,
and, you know, we don't speak about anything.
We're just completely neutral.
And yet if you look at the history of FIFA, for instance, in my game,
and certainly the IOC, you know, the Olympic Games have contributed
a huge amount of harm to the cities and the countries where they've gone,
you know, throughout history.
So we turn a blind eye to the harm of sport, but then when people,
you know, want to then talk about how sport can do positive things
for people and for society, then, you know,
for some reason that becomes a problem.
What sport does really well, and AFL's the same as ours and almost
all others, is that we talk about, you know, the fact that many Indigenous
players are playing, but then, you know, when something happens
to Adam Goodes, you know, then as an industry,
the industry does not respond well.
So I question that.
I question whether just giving people opportunity to play is the same
as upholding Indigenous rights.
And I think they're both important, not just providing opportunity,
but being authentic and real.
When people are being harmed.
I love your directness, Craig, and I really want to talk to you about,
you know, FIFA and you taking FIFA on, and your courage to do that to me
is incredibly admirable.
And I think it's worth noting, you know, our industry did let Adam's goods
down terribly, and, you know, the opportunity to speak to him about that
and me working in the media felt part of that.
I missed it, didn't quite get it well enough, and it is an embarrassment
We had a lot of pressure.
We had a lot of pressure.
We had a lot of pressure.
We had a lot of pressure greatly from our Indigenous population,
and the contribution to the game is incredible.
And you're right, in key moments, we haven't got it right.
Well, sport doesn't.
So, you know, as I've said before, you know, I'm not impugning AFL.
You know, I'm impugning all sport as an industry, you know.
And, you know, so when it comes to international football,
we've got immense problems with racism, huge issues with FIFA,
major events all around the world, and sport continues to...
And we've got this now, you know, with the Olympics and the Beijing 2022
You know, you've got over a million Uyghurs interned,
immense cultural genocide, actually.
The UN, the EU, many organisations have used that term,
and yet the Olympics are saying, oh, we don't have any responsibility
to what's happening there.
We just go and have a tournament.
But at the same time, they say that it's a celebration of humanity.
Well, it's not actually.
What you're doing is you're celebrating in part inhumanity,
and we really need to have that discussion in sport.
Yeah, it is a great...
A point you make again, isn't it?
And what's happening in that part of the world with the Uyghur community
is, as you said, genocide occurring on a world scale,
but being ignored not only by the Olympic movement,
but by all the organisations that you speak about.
So much to jump into, Craig, and I love that you go straight
to the heart of every matter.
And I want to talk about your leadership in the Save Hakeem issue.
For those that don't know the story, a former Barani national soccer player
was tortured and imprisoned in his own country before escaping
to Australia as a refugee.
He was then imprisoned in Thailand.
He was then imprisoned in Thailand.
He was then imprisoned in Thailand.
Again, in 2018 on his honeymoon.
Can I get you, Craig, to give a little bit more depth
to Hakeem's story and just for context?
And then what connected you personally to him and your mission
to try and save him from jail in Thailand?
So he was part of the Arab Spring, which was a pro-democracy movement,
largely in authoritarian or theocratic regimes, you know,
monarchies, for instance, like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain,
where the royal family rule and tend to be the judges
and, you know, occupy all the high positions in society,
including, I might say, sport positions,
which means National Olympic Committees and all of these things.
And he took to the street tens of thousands of people in Bahrain
calling for democracy and following that,
the Crown Prince went on TV with some footage because, of course,
the news organisations were there.
They put up the footage of these people in this demonstration,
peaceful demonstration, by the way, which was ultimately crushed
by Saudi Arabians coming across the causeway between the two countries
in tanks and people died because you can only push a monarchy so far,
right, before the use of force becomes, you know, becomes automatic.
And so what happened is they circled some of the athletes
on the television and said, Bahrain is an island, he said,
the Crown Prince, and there is no escape and you will, you know,
you have spoken against the regime.
And we're coming for you.
So they went and rounded them all up, over 150 athletes.
He was in the under 23 Bahrain football team, that's soccer.
And he spent months in jail.
They tortured him.
They bashed his legs with a metal pole saying,
you're never going to play football again, we're going to break your legs.
And then they would stand him up, walk him around until he got blood
back in his legs and so that they could then bash him again.
They falsely accused him.
It was quite funny because they accused him of being part of apparently
A group who burned down a police station.
And that occurred at exactly the same time that he was playing
in a televised football match.
And yet they convicted him because they, of course, you know,
in unfair trials in many of these countries, you know,
you can't put that evidence there.
So his brother was forced to, you know, a forced confession to say that
Hakeem Idita, anyway, here's this vision of him playing football at the same time
as they, so they convicted him of 10 years and he fled.
He ended up in Australia.
And he was granted refugee status, which in Australia is not easy.
It's a very prolonged and thorough process.
You know, everyone understands where we are at with refugees in this country
And so the Australian government was privy to all of that information.
They knew that he fled for, you know, for legitimate purposes.
And anyway, he thought he was safe.
He was given a protection visa, which means that he's a recognised refugee.
Anyway, he decided to go on his honeymoon across to Thailand.
What he didn't know is that the King of Bahrain,
is very close friends with the King of Thailand.
So you have these monarchies around the world, which, by the way,
includes Australia's.
And, you know, there's a very small group of these kings and queens
and royal families, and particularly in the Middle East,
they're all very highly connected.
Bahrain is very, and Saudi, but Bahrain is a very big investor
in a Thailand property.
The former, or the King of Bahrain had bailed out the former prince
and now King of Thailand, which is to the tune of $700 million.
And, you know, some time ago, so very close relationship.
He didn't know that.
And so what it became clear is that they'd been monitoring him
because he'd spoken out against a former ruling member
who actually wanted to become FIFA president.
And Hakeem was so brave because he said, these people tortured me.
And this guy didn't speak up because he was the,
he was president of the football association.
He said he didn't say anything.
And my captain of the country and me and many others
were incarcerated and tortured.
So how can he run FIFA?
So Hakeem basically, that went around the world.
He basically played a big role, if not killed the hopes of,
of that Sheikh and member of the Royal family,
who now is the president of AFC of Asia.
So what happened is he landed in Bangkok.
They directed the Thai government working together.
They got on the plane, grabbed him and threw him into detention.
And within about a week or so, threw him into the prison.
And they were going to extradite him back to Bahrain.
If he went back, he was going to be, A, tortured,
but it had happened before.
sent back several other people under the exact same circumstances
and they were never seen again.
So it was our judgment that he was going to lose his life.
So, you know, we went and got him.
And your effort, you mentioned, you know,
the wealth and the influence of the Bahraini Royal family
in that instance.
And so you, from a leadership story, the complexity of that,
you're taking on FIFA and the power of FIFA because they're
conflicted as they often are in all their ethics.
You know, Australia's own refugee history became an issue.
For you, when trying to get some advocacy and some collaboration,
essentially, to bring Hakeem, tell me about stepping into that.
Were you aware from the start just how challenging it was going to be?
And did you face hurdles that you couldn't have imagined?
Well, no and yes.
So I wasn't that, I wasn't 100% aware of what it is I was stepping into.
All I knew is I met his wife, you know,
and she kind of looked at me and said, look, are you going to help?
And I said, well, look,
I've already spoken to the government and I've made a bit of an issue
publicly and she looked at me and said, yeah,
but are you actually really going to help?
You know, and, and what, and that was the right question.
What she was saying is, look, you have some social capital, you know,
you have a position.
Are you actually going to do what's required to get him out?
And I looked at her and said, yeah, I understood what she was asking.
And I said, yes, I will.
That's kind of when I decided, look, I've got to go.
I went across to Bangkok and, and, you know,
went and saw him in the prison and then went to FIFA and just,
you know, just went the whole way.
And people often ask, how did you get him out?
It was very complex matrix of stakeholders, obviously,
but the real answer is that I really tried many times in life.
We are trying to achieve things, but, you know,
without treading on toes, you know,
without putting our reputation on the line,
without taking risks to ourselves or our families or our financial
wellbeing, you know, I was working with SBS at that time,
which is a government, you know,
government broadcaster and I knew that I would have to have to advocate
in some ways against the government of Australia.
Although we ended up working together with the foreign minister,
Maurice Payne is a very good person.
So I didn't realise then,
and I couldn't talk throughout about this relationship between the royals
because that would have put him at even more risk.
So we had some areas that became known to us,
but I weren't able to advocate on them, only allude to them.
But those things, I was able to advocate on them.
I was able to tell FIFA when we, when I went over to Zurich,
we closed the door and Fatma Samura, the secretary general,
which is the CEO of FIFA,
I was able to be very candid with her and say, this is what's happening.
This is what the foreign minister's told me yesterday. I was in Bangkok.
This is what I found out.
I understand that you are aware of what I've found out.
And unless we do something together, you know, that's not going to be good.
I read your history saying you took on everyone. I broke every relationship.
And you mentioned personal capital, Craig.
There is, you know, and I love Hakeem's wife question.
She understood that you were going to have to, you know,
and then that comes back on your own family.
I mean, how do you, how do you make those judgment calls?
Because you are effectively having to put skin in the game here to do what you did.
Was it, was it a toss of the coin?
Was there a moment where you thought I'm in trouble here?
I sat down with my wife and children and, you know,
there was a lot of tears everywhere and so on,
because we knew what was at risk.
We also had people camped outside our house.
And so, you know, I had to bring in, you know,
law enforcement agencies and so on.
When we had to, and it was just before I was scheduled to go to Bangkok.
So we had to put as many protections in place for our children.
We have three as we possibly could and my wife.
And so, yeah, it was very, very worrying.
And that was a very difficult decision.
You know, do we leave these guys here?
I had to be satisfied that they had, you know,
that we had the best possible protections around them.
They couldn't go.
I was a way that couldn't be walking anywhere, even to school at school.
We needed someone around the school to be, you know,
proximal to them and on all those things.
So that didn't add to it didn't make it easier because it was already as
intense as you could possibly hope.
But as I said, look in the end, in some ways it's easier because,
when a kid's life is in danger or when the Afghan, you know,
refugees or the women's national football team,
you know, the second generation going out there,
the first generation that we got out recently, you know,
like when it's at that level, then you really have no choice.
And so you have to be as that focuses the mind,
it focuses the skills and 20 years of being in the media and say training,
but being in the media allowed me to frame the messaging,
which was really important to the Australian government,
to the Bahrainis and others.
But I remember going to that FIFA meeting and this is really the crux of it.
And I took to the FIFA meeting,
albernian actually is a legendary lawyer who happens to work in sport his name is brennan
schwab and uh and um who used to sit on the board of richmond afl actually and um he runs world
players association which is the global players union and i'm a chair of our former chair of our
local players union here and i remember being in the taxi with him and just turning to him and
saying okay listen you know what's at stake here he knew anyway but i want i needed to state it
said look we're going to go in there you know i'm going to control this meeting and get the outcome
that i need to get out of it and you need to understand that this meeting means that we i have
to do whatever is necessary to get this kid out uh that they're going to fight and scream and kick
for several hours and that we're going to have to deal with that uh but there's only one outcome
that we're going to have at the end but that you are never going to be and i and you are never going
to be in first class flying around the world going to fifa world cups we can forget about
fifa tribunals you know he's a magnificent sports lawyer you can forget about that
it's not happening you know the our future in relation to fifa and you know all of the gravy
train that happens there not that we're looking at it but you know that is going to be gone today
and i just need to let you know that you have to be comfortable with that otherwise don't come in
and of course he's a he's a you know he's a player unionist um so you know he's very
comfortable with that but we went in and the meeting at time was very robust
and in the end we actually fifa issued a press release which was one of my um i guess um demands
really a press release that said fifa is working with a craig and world players association brennan
to bring this to a speedy resolution and we're calling on bahrain as well as thailand but we're
calling on bahrain the highest levels of bahrain it said that was the language we negotiated in
other words they told the world that the royals of bahrain are going to be the best players in the
world and they need to get out of the way and shortly after that not too long afterwards
uh hakeem was out great story of courage and leadership great so yeah incredible to hear it
firsthand and understand what what was at stake for everyone as you said and and listen to your
family i love talking to leaders like you and you go back to your family because we all look there
straight away and and you've you know wife lara and you mentioned the three kids uh jake jemma and
charlie and you know teenage daughters as well that's that's tough isn't it
i mean you must have had you know moments where you looked at them and went you know have security
at school and have their safety as an issue i mean did you did you at some point think you know wow
i've asked a lot of my family here oh yeah and uh look truthfully you know i've done it before
because um you know i had you know when i was at sbs you know i resigned because i gave some
undertakings to the players association to go back and help them and they were in some trouble
uh and um and so i think it's it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a
you know i do if i feel really strongly about something and i think it's right or wrong um
then i'm willing to take almost whatever risk um that is necessary and so my wife's had to deal
with that a number of times um and so she knows and she says look i can see the signs and so you
know these as we get older we get better at um i'm talking about me here uh better at being able
to manage it and and understand it a bit um ultimately
it's never easy it's never easy um you know social change and taking on major institutions
is important it's incredibly important it's important in a democracy like ours
um and it's certainly important to stand up for people's rights and doing it carries risk that is
the reality it shouldn't be the case i happen to think that the more of us that do it the unit cost
per person of standing up for these issues will lessen uh when all of us do it and i might just
say i'm not going to say that it's not going to be the case but i'm going to say that it's not
that athletes around the world are being very prominent forthright and i think that if sport
does that carries its responsibility on behalf of athletes then the risk to athletes will be
nowhere near as severe as it is right now you wrote a fantastic book uh co-authored by hakeem's
wife uh fighting for hakeem can you tell us a bit about uh clearly that's a special relationship for
life when you do what you did for hakeem and his family uh what's your friendship like these days
oh well he's just like a friend of mine he's a friend of mine he's a friend of mine he's a friend of
my younger brother and um so you know we we talk um intermittently he was up in sydney um
the last week for his birthday actually and and talked about you know what his future looks like
they're still dealing he and his beautiful wife have a young son now uh elia who's about i think
18 months old or so now and he's walking and kicking a football so look it's lovely that
you know i i spoke to him in the prison uh you know and i gave him undertakings that i'd get
him out and after he got out what i said to him is you know i'm not going to be able to do anything
he went down to parliament house and i said to him look um you don't have to speak about this ever
again you know you don't have a responsibility there i do but your only responsibility is to
go and have a life you know have a family if that's what you you want you he was trying to
get a house go and do that do whatever you don't owe anything to anyone you know zero to me yeah
you know i'm here to help you whenever you need that's all that it is but if you feel that you
have a voice and and you want to you know make change in future i'm happy to help you
and you know he's only 28 so what he was put through from his late teens until now you know
changed his life it changed his trajectory he he can't have the same career in football that
he you know was destined to have he loved real madrid he wanted to play for real madrid
well he's not doing that anymore so it's it's fundamentally changed their lives they can't
go back to bahrain and you know they can't go back and see his wife's grandparents and these
types of things you know there's there's a lot of fallout from these types of
circumstances so he just needs to get on with his life your reputation as a broadcaster you
can see when you get focused up greg you uh you get your eye in and uh and watching your broadcast
over the journey that's come with a few scrapes along the way um when you reflect on that is that
just you that's just you being you is there any you look back with would you soften it with age
or is that you being as direct as you could be broadcasting for me in football was not about the
game within australia you know i happen to believe and always have that football as the
multicultural game has a huge amount to offer to the country it's already done that uh by assisting
our somewhat troubled immigration history i mean australia uh and and through that the game uh and
that the game is really important uh and that um i have responsibility as a broadcaster to
uh hold the people in the game accountable and to be able to do that and to be able to do that
in the best interests of the game and what i believe that to be people don't need to agree
but i think when i sit here you know in my early 50s i think most football fans would say
that that's been the case there's a high profile moment uh craig i might be going back over you
and angie postacoglu it's probably about 15 years ago angie's coaching the under 25 team or the youth
team and i think you uh were pointing out pretty uh forcefully that you thought his performances
weren't up to standard and the side hadn't qualified and
uh you know i think ang described himself as maybe being unemployable on the back of
of that i mean you've gone on to extraordinary things in your life and we just spoke about one
chapter there and ang now coaching celtic is an incredible story how does that play out over time
when you when you look do you look back with that one and think that there was maybe some more nuance
in that um if i had the same discussion today obviously i'd do it differently but it was an
important discussion and the question was right um actually what i asked ang was do you take
responsibility and what we used to have a lot
was that australian coaches would blame the players all the time you know we had that for
decades and decades i saw it in fact when we had our team in 1997 we had a coach come in from abroad
his name was terry venables and whilst other coaches were saying that you know australia is
only capable of this uh he proved otherwise so i you know i think uh that it's important to question
the national coaches particularly around uh their approach to either the game or the australian
players or other things so it's an important question and i think it's an important question
it's necessary it's necessary then it's necessary today i'm extremely happy look no one planned
the interview itself no one planned the fallout of course none of that you know that was all
that's live television and anything can happen um and so you know much of that was very sad
uh that's why i'm just so thrilled today that ang has gone on and having a brilliant career
i'm delighted for him he's at celtic now you know i'm hoping that he has success there this year
and sport now i'm hoping to have him in the champions league next year
and i'm thrilled that stephen gerrard has just left rangers that they've had to get a new coach in
and what that might mean is hopefully celtic get an advantage because we all need uh you know
ang to do well this year in order to you know provide a pathway for young australian coaches
yeah that's a fantastic unfolding story isn't it for australian coaching and
interesting to hear your reflection on that as time goes on i want to
drift into your passion for multiculturalism you
always uh craig an unlikely uh ambassador for for that cause if that term is makes sense as
british and irish background where did your passion for for multicultural australia come from
yeah so that's a good point i'm from lismore uh in northern new south wales and so i in in kind of
you know the 70s early 80s that was a very uh monocultural largely anglo area which is where
where i come from uh and so i
stepped into multiculturalism if you like at the age of about 15 when i made our australian junior
team and that's when i saw you know all of these kids from all around australia that would come
from very different cultures to what i'd been used to uh in my life up until that point and i loved
it i thought this was extraordinary and they you know all became lifelong friends of mine so then
i went down to the ais the same thing occurred and then i stepped into the multicultural clubs
of the australian national soccer league which you know we we
are clubs of different ethnicity if you like many different cultures and i came to understand those
cultures and to love them and to love the difference so therefore when i retired uh i
went into sbs which was the natural home uh it was the multicultural broadcaster and i and i believed
in the nature of multiculturalism uh and of lifting up minority voices and so that's been a
big theme of my life ever since uh you know it came to me as a as a as a as a as a as a as a as a as a
out of the game so you know i i advocate a lot quite a lot for refugees so what i would say
about that is you know we play with refugees as our teammates and we play against refugees when
we play other teams and in both instances in team sport we are saying you are my teammate and
therefore you are the same as me right and i'm playing against you and so you know we have respect
and we're on an equal level so that connection was very quickly made uh and i think that's why
sport can be so important to me and i think that's why i'm here today and i think that's why i'm here
and be so powerful because it is so diverse and part of our world verse part of our uh world view
in sport is multicultural sounds like a nice thing to say correct on the back of that but you know
as your mind's talking you're thinking about the idea of discriminating against someone for their
ethnicity or their color or their race or their sector is the most absurd thing that you could
imagine and when maybe your circle of influence is pretty narrow and you don't really see that
day-to-day perhaps you can only know what you know and you can't really see what you know
and when you think about it clearly it's a it's still a massive issue in 2021 and people are
discriminated daily and often unconsciously uh in our actions without thinking about it i mean
it's a big question to ask but what what is the the secret in your what do we need to do for better
inclusivity in in sport and in life in general yeah that that is a long a longer discussion but
i would say um more of us need to speak out about it that's why black lives matter was really
important uh is because we need to speak out about it and i think that's why i think that's
they it turned it coined a term that's really important they said silence is violence and
that's true so just today prior to speaking you to you i went from sydney up to newcastle to see
the lord mayor of newcastle of the city uh who uh joined the racism not welcome campaign that i am
um you know supporting and part of and it emerged out of the grassroots communities here in sydney
who particularly during covid experienced a heightened uh incidence of racism uh of
course the asian australian community i think everyone knows that's been well publicized
uh but also almost every other cold community you know a culturally and linguistically diverse
community across australia have have faced racism recently and of course you know it goes to the
very nature of the you know uh settlement uh you know post uh first nations um you know 65 000
years so what racism not welcome does is encourages all lgas that's
councils around the country to sign up to the campaign and firstly to install street signs
which is really interesting because many people say well why do i need a racism not welcome street
sign in the street where i walk i feel really uncomfortable with that because racism's not here
well that's why the street signs need it because the firstly what we want to do is make you
acknowledge at grassroots community level which is why i support it i think top down campaigns
are really important but this is very very profound coming from the communities in the
and as you said before lived experience and so we install the street signs it's in the city of
sydney there's one near parliament house there's a number across the city and in many councils
around australia and then what we do is we say okay now we need to acknowledge understand and
have this difficult but necessary conversation i think we're all going to be better for having
done that uh it's time that we you know stood shoulder to shoulder and lifted up first nations
voices you know we talk about equity that means providing them more opportunities to
speak than us than me uh and to do so we can get this country to the place where i think at least
in sport we were all taught and we internalized and really believed uh that this is what australia
was is but it certainly should be yeah beautifully said uh craig and once again you can your passion
and your leadership on on those issues is uh is a standout quality clearly uh i mentioned you
being recognized with an order of australia for your work but you can see
that it's a part of who you are in a really strong sense we've been talking to a range of
leaders craig about we're seeing a a number of traits that make up great leadership and modern
leadership and the new face of leadership in lots of ways and so please be expansive i want to ask
you a series of questions about the dimensions of leadership as we see them starting with self
leadership craig what does that term mean to you when i say self-leadership i would say just um
introspection and um i think it's important to always interrogate where we are
who we are what what influence we're having on others um what we have when that others don't
have and part of that to me is um being in touch with a whole range of communities who don't have
the privilege and opportunities that i've been given and that's how we learn yeah connection to
community yeah craig my mind had the privilege um of playing uh professional afl foot with a
number of indigenous players who were just incredible in their contribution and their
school and their friendship and sense but it wasn't until actually going
back and visiting their communities taking my own kids to their communities sometimes
you know remote uh regional parts of australia and then understanding their sense of family
understanding the 2000 years of intelligence around so many different aspects that you could
really then get a sense as you said it's until you take that time and effort you really understand
you know a much deeper sense of the cultural sensitivities that were going on and that was
you know a life-changing moment for me and a change in my relationship and understanding i
get your understanding and passion for it you mentioned
about positively impacting others in in your environment which is another dimension of
leadership we're seeing great leaders and clearly that has been part of your life's work do you
actively think about how you positively impact others craig i don't really plan it but what i
you know i i just recognize that a broadcast and what you're doing now and so on is very very
powerful and influential position and uh and it can be used for tremendous good as we've seen
around the world with trumpism and all of this type of things it can be used for really nefarious
untruthful things um and that's perhaps why it needs to be used uh for truth and for uh you know
what is good and to help people um and so um you know that's that's that's the way i look at it
is that um you know i have a responsibility through the platform that sport has given me
uh to help anyone who comes within my purview if i have time uh and can do it in a you know
an authentic substantive way you know not just you know i'm not going to be able to do it in a
superficial way and what the hakeem you know and i used to like every athlete you know i was
ambassador for a thousand things you know even when i was playing i was part of the republic
movement you know i spoke at the town hall here in sydney around the referendum on being a republic
with malcolm turnbull uh and you know homelessness domestic violence uh you know you name it you
know i just think if people came and said look these people don't have what you have they haven't
had the same opportunity they're being harmed they're in trouble and you could somehow help
then i just always felt compelled to do whatever it is that i could creating and sharing a vision
is is something we've been speaking about as well you've had some big visions and you know not the
least of which the idea of uh being able to secure hakeem's release from a tie jail with all the
complexity we spoke about how do you go about sharing and creating a vision i think it's about
firstly it has to be based on principles so when you articulate a vision i happen to believe that
it should be based on goodness on human rights and by the way it should be based on human rights
by a sustainable planet is now a human right and that makes sense to me and i'm glad about that
you can articulate a brilliant vision but just because you're shell and you're articulating a
vision of the world with energy that doesn't mean that it's sustainable or it's right or it's good
and the second point is um just empowering people like you know everything that i do today and a
team is like that you know um there was a good uh anecdote about um i'm not sure if it was a kind of
you know who said to some french troops this is this is what i read is the only reason i'm talking
about those two nationalities and cultures uh listen that you know that's that's the wall there
we're going to go over there and we're going to go and get those people and you know there's like
500 000 of them outside there but you ready i'm going to blow this horn you're all going to go
and the the french troops said yeah that's a great idea show us great another dimension where we're
seeing as a common trait of leaders like yourself is the idea of curiosity as a pathway to improve
and approach learning and development what do you think of when i talk about curiosity
and your world of learning development look i'm just embarrassed at what i don't know
um and you know i'm constantly just thinking wow you know you should have studied that when you're
young you should have studied that when you're young like you know what do you what were you
thinking um and so you know i had a chance to go back and finish my law degree after many many years
you know only a few years ago and that was really a wonderful uh process of discovery um you know so
learning about the legal history of uh let's say um you know colonizers and largely white australia's
uh interaction with first nations and entrenched disadvantage intergenerational disadvantage and
trauma and how the law plays a part in that you know um community policing uh regulations laws
and others that means you know young indigenous kids in throughout history have been regularly
locked up families separated
very very interesting um and just you know foundational it just changes your understanding
and so when you have conversations and people say well i just don't get it you know uh first
nations should just get on with it and do whatever it is so okay what about this you know what about
this so when you were you know i used to ride my bike around lismore all the time and not once did
the police pull me up not once they never ever drove past me riding a beautiful melvin star i
used to have the melvin star with a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a
little twinkles coming off the handlebars so did i it was blue and had a sparkly seat it was
magnificent right they go past me multiple times i used to ride it to all my sport there was a lot
not once did they pull me up and say where'd you get that bike son not once and so that's called
privilege uh because of my color and because there's assumptions made about me that are not
made about indigenous kids yeah riding that same bike and i'm not going to be able to do that
you know all that stuff's important so i i continue to try and learn as as much as possible
like i said i you know i try to advocate on subjects and what that mean is that i'm forever
discovering how ignorant or ignorant i am on a vast range of subjects great we talk about
communicating with clarity as as a identifiable trait of of great leaders and i'm picturing you
walking into fifa headquarters in geneva one shot in the locker you've got uh your mate
you're brendan schwab and you need to get that communication very very right how do you think
about communicating with clarity again you know purpose is really important i say that truth is
at a premium because you know i see it every day when you're in social advocacy it's very difficult
to find people who are prepared to be truthful and see you know you said to me at the start you
know you go directly to the matter is because we're so we're so used to trying to
skirt around what are really fundamentally important issues but people are very uncomfortable
with it business operates that way and so people are constantly trying not to uh you know put anyone
in a position of discomfort well if you're discomforted about racism you know what it's
just too bad right if you're discomforted about the planet burning that's not our responsibility
you know if you're discomforted about talking about australia's treatment of refugees
because that makes you feel uncomfortable on some level
so what do you think about that i think it's a really important issue and i think it's a really
the point is those people are being tortured those people are actually literally dying
either dead or they're dying inside they're dying psychologically their mental health
is slowly dying so you know to me it's all relative so for instance when you talk about
real leadership i think 2021 has been very much marked in my life's calendar by women
and i think this is a really important issue and i think it's a really important issue and i think
it's been a defining year for women's rights and women's voice in australia and i'm so thrilled
by it i'm i am just enjoying it so much i can't tell you how much so grace tame become australian
of the year and she's strong and she's articulate and she's brilliant and she's not captured by the
government's adam goods was another one but it's very difficult to be given awards of the highest
level by a government and then turn around and say look i you know thank you for that but you're
you need to be accountable on one two three four and five that is so outstanding she is uh because
she's made clear and it's obvious she's not like me she's not partisan in her public advocacy she's
not doing it against the liberal national party she's working on principle she's saying this is
what needs to happen and i don't care who's in power this is what you should be doing
sport is like this as you know sport doesn't like to upset each other we don't like you know they
don't like to upset people running the sports and all these things um but ultimately when it comes
to harm and when it comes to human rights uh you know that's where i draw the line i say okay it
doesn't matter that's more important than your sensibilities your discomfort level if we're
talking racial injustice it's just too bad now we're talking about collaboration craig is a real
key to modern leadership
how do you approach collaboration oh that's to me that's all it is you know like um you know so
for example um you know the hakim campaign or recently with the afghan women whatever it is
um nothing good happens by me you or anyone else uh just running off and being the most
extraordinary human being that's ever been seen it's just not it's just not reality uh
you know that's the why that's the narrative that
people like to uh promote you know i must say when when hakim got back to the uh melbourne airport
and i think the first interview might have been i went on abc news breakfast and the first thing i
said to him is uh yeah because they said something i don't know you know this is incredible and you
ran off over there and i said yeah well i ran off over there that's true but this has been a huge
amount of people involved here in organizations and a extraordinary amount of work uh and you
know they're too long to mention but you know in the book they can all be mentioned but uh and it
You can't go and do something like that by yourself.
Like, you know, it's a ridiculous concept.
To me, you know, let's say that you're a manager in an organisation
and one of the reasons that leadership is also at a premium is
because the first thing that you need to do in a team is convince
the other people, and it has to be authentic,
but the people need to be convinced that you care about them
and that you're all going forward together in order
for you to do anything special.
And so someone asked me the other day, well, in sport, of course,
you have robust discussions because, you know,
we get judged every week.
You know, we don't have quarterly reviews.
We have weekly reviews, you know, by fans, and that's totally right.
So, of course, you have to hold each other accountable
within the dressing room to create a really high-performing team.
But the only way you can do that is if you trust each other.
Well, what's trust?
Trust is that I actually care about you and I want you to perform well.
I want you, you know, I want you to be the best you can be.
But in order to do that, you have to allow me to do it
And we're going to create a set of ground rules here
that are respectful and so we can all make that happen
and we're all going to be held accountable,
but it's actually about all of us.
And that to me is, that's what life should be.
But, you know, it's sadly rare because people get rewards
for being in positions of, you know, we would call authority.
I always look at the way, you know, let's take, for instance,
In my game, Football Australia, people often get upset
because I say a governing body of sport is under the sport.
They're to serve the game effectively is the role, isn't it?
And we draw the pyramid like this and we put the governing body
That's totally wrong.
They're the players.
You are employed to help them play and your job is to serve them.
And I think that's the first thing that all of governing bodies
in sport should do.
Because in FIFA, you know, there's private jets and they go around
and, you know, million, million euros spent on hotel.
Like, it's just ridiculous.
Okay, it's ridiculous.
That to me is what leadership is.
You might have a team of 25 people in your company.
Do you know what?
You have ultimate responsibility and you're accountable.
But your job is to hold them up, let them do the best they can possibly do
and give them all the credit in the world.
I think you've burst my bubble today, Craig,
to think that the FIFA Ethics Committee has got some challenges.
I find that hard to believe.
The FIFA Ethics Committee, it's almost the butt of every joke, isn't it?
Go to the FIFA Ethics Committee and the same in all sport.
And you're right, the bureaucracy becomes bigger than the game itself
as opposed to serving the game.
And I align with your thoughts.
And I've got two final questions, Craig.
I could spend all day with you because I'm fascinated
by the way you approach life.
But I've been asking great leaders like you,
who is the greatest leader in your life?
I have many, many, many.
Most of them are women.
But the strongest, most, overwhelmingly, not all, of course,
but overwhelmingly the strongest, most courageous people that I know,
and whether that's heads of human rights organisations,
you know, my own family, my own mother and my own wife
and many people in business, you know, Sam Mostyn, for example,
is a good friend of mine, Kylie Kwong, Rosanna Barbera,
who runs the Addison Road Community Centre,
which I love and spend a lot of time at.
So many of them, they're leaders.
For you and I, it's easy.
We are in a society that respects our voice.
So, you know, I get on Zooms these days and I say to all the men in a room
where women are, and hopefully there's an equal number.
It's not always the case.
Listen, when you feel compelled to say something,
can you please use the text?
And just, you know, send me messages.
However, if the women want to interject and have something compelling to say,
please just put up your hand or you just interrupt me.
And, you know, and people get upset.
I say, no, that's equity.
Equity is a rebalancing of a situation that is unbalanced.
That means that it's not enough to just have 50% women and 50% male
is valid my opinion is valid and i just believe that inherently because every feedback that we've
had as a man uh particularly white males in australia of course that tells us that whereas
women are not the same they have not been provided with that feedback by males and particularly in
corporate and even sport environments so in other words let's rebalance you know this scenario um
and you know that that those types of things to me uh very very important yeah looking at through
the lens of our own daughters and our own uh partners is a pretty profound way to do it if
you're challenged by it think about uh your own home front uh it's again not surprised that they're
the way you approach the things that are going on in your world um collaboration is something
we're passionate about if you could collaborate with any person craig in the world on any level
on any issue is there someone that stands out that you'd like to collaborate
with um i would like to i would like to change what's happening on climate and race and human
rights so that's a big ask um but to do that i think that the way the world is at the moment
the most space the most voice uh the most power the most influence is given to the richest
that's what the world has decided is of most value now
i happen to disagree with that but that is what you know certainly western society anyway or i
would say the vast majority of the world uh they have access they have power they have influence
they have voice uh and therefore they can make very significant change so i would like to
have a group of them actually not one but i would like to convince them
that there is a better way for everyone in the world and that the use of the resources they have
should be far more humanely and better deployed and i think by doing that uh we could
change the world very quickly so you're talking about getting the elite wealthy together to
collaborate with is that what you're saying or is it is yeah and convincing them that the
center and that is one of the great issues isn't at the moment is that the separation of wealth is
becoming just obscene effectively yeah and you'd like to yeah yeah so i'd like to convince them
that um you know taxation that we all contribute to you know the global commons and the national
commons that it's actually important uh and that companies shouldn't be taking uh you know um a
job keeper and then not having to use it you know and keeping it and these types of things you know
i think there's there's all of those discussions are very important so i think that's a very good
step forward and i'd like to convince many of them uh that they should do much much more profound
to finish on the craig i really enjoyed uh getting some time with you today and hearing your passion
and your leadership on a whole range of issues is truly inspiring congratulations it feels like
you're only getting started craig you look as healthy as as ever and i look forward to hearing
and seeing and reading about the next chapters uh as they unfold thanks for joining me on the
empowering leaders podcast i really appreciate it my pleasure empowering leaders was presented by
me luke darcy produced by matt dwyer with audio production by darcy thompson start your leadership
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