Clyde Davenport The Creator Of 2Xu

Clyde Davenport is a business leader with a truly unique story.

The founder of Two Times You, a brand that we all know,

a revolutionary sportswear company used by Navy SEALs

and some of the world's best athletes.

Two Times You is now a staple of global sportswear,

but the origins of how Clyde approached it is fascinating.

He had the ambitious goal of being Australia's first ever global sportswear brand,

something which had never been done before.

He tells an incredible story in this episode where LeBron James,

one of the biggest sports stars on the planet,

went against his Nike sponsorship to wear Two Times You

because the belief in the product was so strong.

I encourage you to stick around to hear the full story from Clyde,

a remarkable leader in a great space.

This type of ambitious business thinking is something I love to learn about

at Our Business A Leader, a place where leaders can collaborate

and learn from one another and have conversations

that they probably can't have elsewhere.

We've had the privilege of working with incredible people in the program.

Ange Postacoglu is doing remarkable things at Celtic.

Eddie Jones from English Rugby.

Andy Lee from Hamish & Andy, just to name a few.

Something that you can be part of as well,

and you don't have to be a world-leading comedian

or a head coach around the globe to participate.

We think whatever you do, we all bring value to the types of forums

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Our signature A Leader Connect program is a great place to start

and get an understanding of what's going on.

And get an understanding of the incredible work

and thinking of people like today's guest, Clyde Davenport.

Clyde Davenport left his advertising job in the late 1980s

to have a crack at starting his own business.

At the time, his wife Debbie was pregnant with their first child

and their life savings tabled $100,000.

Clyde saw an opportunity to create sleepwear that wasn't dull and boring.

The idea didn't really take off, and with Clyde six weeks away

from throwing in the towel, decided to use some fabric offcuts

to make boxer shorts.

He was a big fan of the idea, and he was a big fan of the idea

having seen them become popular in Europe and the US.

In 2003, Clyde went on to sell that business for more than $15 million.

Shortly after, Clyde was approached by former triathlete Jamie Hunt

and his good friend marketing and sales expert Aidan Clark

about creating a sportswear brand.

Two Times You was founded in 2005 and has become

an extraordinary business success story.

It is sold in more than 70 countries around the world.

It has become the compression garment of choice for US Navy SEALs,

the likes of NFL, NBA players.

And I'll also be posting the agreement on Twitter

to look for contact information on the topic ofeleightathletes

around the globe.

Clyde, thanks for your time.

I appreciate you joining me today.

Oh, it's my pleasure.

Clyde, going back to that opening there, pretty bold move.

Your wife's pregnant, you got a stable job in advertising.

Life savings of $100,000.

Where did the courage come from to take that plunge?

I probably didn't know any better is the truth on that.

So, look, being in advertising, I always wanted to...

in advertising, you work for clients, and you help them, particularly in advertising,

in their marketing. But ultimately, it's their choice of what they do. And I guess for once

in my life, I wanted to make the decisions and see if I could actually make a business

myself, essentially.

And so you take on the sleepwear space. I mean, did you have any retail experience at

all? Did you have any background in that world?

Not really. I mean, I worked for Sheridan Textiles in Sheets, but I looked around the

market and I thought, well, no one's doing sleepwear that well. I mean, it's pretty dull

and boring. There's nothing particularly contemporary. So I gave it a go. But pretty

soon, I found out I was no good at it. Well, not so much I was no good. It was going nowhere

and I couldn't, I was running out of money. But fortunately, at the same time, I saw this

trend in boxer shorts and we changed from doing, well, when I say we changed, we started

using some of the offcuts in our sleepwear business, made them into boxer shorts. And

we got a break.

Yeah.

And they took off. I mean, it was crazy.

In preparation for this, Clive's reading, people might understand, boxer shorts weren't

a thing. I remember growing up and first, it was 1% of the market, I think was, and

you had most of that market, but it was a pretty small market. And then when it became

more popular and was 20% of the market, you still had sort of a 70% or 80% share. Is that

accurate?

Yeah, that's pretty way the way it went. I mean, I didn't really do any consumer research.

I just thought I had nothing.

I didn't have an idea. Today, I'd say to people, look, if you've got an idea, first

of all, see if it's scalable. And in hindsight, it probably wasn't scalable. Although, look,

at the same time, there were three guys started business together and during that time, there

was myself, there was a guy called Mitch Dowd who was doing boxer shorts, and there was

Peter Alexander. And they're interesting stories. Myself, I started with sleepwear and I couldn't

make it work.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I started with sleepwear, and I couldn't make it work, but then I was

The latest word is pivoted.

I changed to doing boxer shorts almost by accident.

And then we did sort of fun boxer shorts and it took off.

Mitch Dowd started in boxer shorts and he did really well.

And Peter Alexander, I mean, he actually was in sleepwear.

And what helped him was that he had a big order from Meyer

and for whatever reason, Meyer cancelled the order.

And then he went into, you know, today it's e-com,

but then it was magazine advertising.

So he put a birdie in, I think it was clear.

A mail order effectively.

A mail order, yeah.

He put an order in clear and it took off.

Now, if he had stayed in the traditional sense,

he wouldn't have made it.

If I'd have stayed in sleepwear, I would have made it.

Mitch Dowd is a little bit different.

Maybe he's the one who actually saw that, you know,

he saw it straight away.

It's a fascinating story.

I didn't realise that history.

I mean, Peter Alexander swimwear has become, you know, legendary.

Great story.

Mitch Dowd still making.

He's still making boxed shorts and doing it with great success.

I mean, how stressful was it?

You're running out of money.

You're looking at the sleepwear business again.

I'm in trouble.

Can you take us back to then?

When we read the CV, everyone thinks what a great success story,

but clearly you had to deal with some challenges.

What was that like?

Well, look, I gave it a year.

When I left advertising, I left on a good note and I thought,

well, I'll give it a year and if I can't make it work,

I'll go and get a real job.

So that's sort of exactly what I did.

And it got pretty close.

I mean, you know, I was doing a bit of advertising on the side

to try and, you know, keep the money going.

You know, it was tough.

I mean, well, it was tough at the time, but looking back,

it's probably, you know, the best experience you've ever had.

I mean, I was sort of getting designs done, taking to manufacturers,

sitting down with them while they're sewing, bringing them back,

putting them in my suitcase, you know, selling them.

I never figured I went to China.

One time, and I didn't get a call while I was away.

It was tough.

But then, as I said, I got this break.

I got this article written in, I think it was one of the business magazines,

how he's a guy trying to sort of make a break or trying to get a break,

and it sort of took off.

But if I...

I didn't see it as a risk, to answer your question,

because if it didn't work, then I'd sort of go back and get a real job,

and, you know, I'd probably still be in advertising now.

Although, even in advertising, I mean, I looked around in advertising,

and one of the reasons to get out was, one, to run my own business,

but, two, I looked around, and no one seemed to get old in advertising.

I mean, I don't know where the old advertising guys go, but it's...

It was, you know, I thought, well, I wasn't, you know, confident enough

to think I'd be the only guy that could get old in advertising.

I thought...

Well, you know, what are we going to do next?

And I love that idea of how you compartmentalise risk,

and, you know, so many people...

On the surface, it sounds like, you know, as you said,

baby on the way, a huge risk, but when you look at it like that,

it's like, OK, I'm going to give this a year.

If not, I always know I can go back in advertising,

and I'll find a different path.

But you can imagine how different your life would have been

without that courage, and I find that interesting.

A lot of people stay in something they really don't love

for a long period of time because they can't maybe assess risk

the way they want to.

The way that you did, have you seen that cross your travels?

Yeah, and, you know, I guess the further you get on in your career,

the harder it becomes because, you know, I've got mates who are lawyers

who, you know, I've got mates that love lawyers,

that love being lawyers, but I've got a lot of mates

that hate being lawyers.

But once they get to a stage when they're, you know,

you've got, you know, two kids at private schools

and they've got bills to pay and mortgages,

it's pretty hard to, you know, do what I did

if I was in that sort of point in time.

You know, at that point in time, I did have

a young child, but it's not only a baby.

Debbie and I could actually work.

You know, within 12 months, we sort of knew,

not necessarily it was going to be a,

we're going to make a lot of money,

but we knew that whether there's potential in the future.

So it was sort of a, it was a calculated risk.

But, yeah, certainly there are a lot of people

who, for one reason or another, don't want to, can't.

And it's a bit sad if you're doing something

that you don't like, I mean.

It's a long life, isn't it?

It's a long life, yeah.

Without passion and purpose.

And I know that there are words that are really big

in your sphere as well.

Another great part to the story, Calvin Klein at the time,

people were the biggest underwear brand in the world.

And we grew up in that era.

Everyone had Calvin Klein.

You went several times to knock on their door

to get the distribution rights.

Can you tell us that story?

Yeah, that was an interesting one.

You know, I was doing, at that stage, you know,

I was doing a lot of work.

I was doing a lot of work.

I was doing a lot of work.

I was doing pretty well with the underwear business,

with the boxer short business.

But, and we were doing all sorts of things.

We were doing characters.

You know, we did, you know, Mickey Mouse

and Warner Brothers.

And it was all going swimmingly well.

But again, you know, I was thinking to myself,

well, how long is this going to last?

Is this a fad?

You know, I'd really like to get another underwear brand,

a global brand that, you know,

if the boxer short sort of story ran out,

I wouldn't be out of business.

Because that was a risk also.

So I looked around.

The only one that was not taken in Australia

was sort of Calvin Klein.

I mean, you could do the likes of, you know,

you could look at Ralph Lauren, not so much Ralph Lauren,

you could do Armani and so forth.

But those, their underwear was stratospheric.

Whereas Calvin Klein was expensive,

but it wasn't, you know, out of reach.

You know, it's 65 bucks for a pair of underpants.

It's expensive, but it's not out of reach of a lot of people.

So I got on a plane, got on a plane to New York,

I was there on, you know, to check out box shorts designs.

And I knocked on Calvin Klein's door.

And, you know, he said to me, pretty much, no.

Did he get to Calvin himself?

No, the first time I didn't get to Calvin,

I got to his head of international and he, they said no.

What I didn't realise at the time that Jockey, Pacific Brands

and a couple of other companies also went to New York

to try and get that licence.

The difference is,

the following year I went back and I got no again.

Quick no?

Was it deflating or were you...

Pretty quick no, but I was doing other stuff there.

So, you know, I wasn't wasting my time, but a pretty quick no.

And then the following year, the third year I went there,

and by this time everyone had left,

but the third time I went there, they said yes.

And it wasn't until sometime after I found out why.

I mean, the reasons I said yes was,

there was a couple of reasons.

One is that I heard that Calvin Klein,

a couple of years earlier,

got into this financial problem with his jeanswear business

and he had a mate called David Geffen,

who was the first billionaire in music.

And apparently, this is a story I heard,

apparently David Geffen lent Calvin Klein 64 million

or some crazy number.

Good to have mates with money.

But apparently it was due for repayment.

And I said,

I suspect anyone who walked through that door

may have got the licence.

I think it helped that I showed persistence.

But, you know, timing's everything.

So it was quite an interesting time.

Life's about timing.

But as I said, I love the persistence and perseverance, wasn't it?

To be able to go back and, you know,

you're reading your language, you know,

no maybe is not no forever.

You can come back again.

And my mind was going as you were talking,

I remember reading an article.

For those that don't, you know,

like everyone had Calvin Klein underwear

and all of us grew up in new Davenport boxer shorts as well.

I think it was Calvin Klein's daughter saying

how disconcerting it was, you know,

the age where she was going to have her first boyfriend,

you know, seeing your dad's name on your boyfriend's boxer shorts.

I suppose that would have been, you know,

not dissimilar to you in Australia, wouldn't it?

With the Davenport boxers, everyone had them.

Yeah, well, fortunately that time,

my kids were probably two, four and six.

So it wasn't...

Having dad's name on would have been a challenging thing.

I mean, that's, Kai, when you think about, you know,

small business, people will tell you that the rate of failure is enormous.

When you look back and what sort of skills

and what sort of leadership do you think you brought

to the table that helped you succeed?

Can I put it in a slightly different way?

I mean, if someone came to me and said,

what do you need to start an entrepreneurial business?

I'd probably say, number one, have a strong idea.

Somehow you can differentiate yourself from other people out there.

There has to be a new product, a new way of doing things.

Then you have to sit back and ask yourself,

is it really scalable?

Because it's no use doing something that's not scalable.

So can I delve into that for a minute?

I love where you're going with this.

I mean, how do you analyse something?

I mean, for people to drill in a bit more and say,

hey, I've got this great idea.

I think people are going to love it.

I mean, you know scale is super important if you are going to succeed.

How do you get to understand that?

How did you go about that?

It's mainly by, you know, like these days you can get so much.

So much is online.

So much you can dredge up.

You look at Google and you can get so much information.

You can look at, I'm just trying to think of an example.

Well, I'll tell you an example.

I mean, even today I've just angel invested in a maternity business

with two young women who it's about, it's called theory or the reason why

and they do products for prenatal and postnatal women

that actually physiologically benefits them.

So they do, you know, compression tights that helps blood flow,

helps nourishing the baby, et cetera, et cetera.

Now.

Now, on my hand, you think, gee, well, how scalable is that?

Well, you can find out.

I mean, there's 400,000 babies born in Australia each year.

There's 4 million born in the US each year.

From a marketing perspective, it should be, you should be able to sort of narrow in.

It should be more rifle shot than scatter gun approach.

So, you know, it should be.

Really clear target market there, isn't it?

You know, you've got to go.

Therefore, so, you know, for us, if it had been just an opportunity in Australia,

400,000 people, you know, reasonably expensive product because it does a job,

you know, it's very high quality.

So we probably need the international volume to make it reasonable,

even two times you, two times you.

Again, you know, it did remarkably well,

but it worked.

It wouldn't have been successful if we hadn't have taken a global approach to it.

So there's one example of saying, well, okay, it's scalable.

Well, it's somewhat scalable in Australia, but to make it really work,

it's got to be a global opportunity.

And you saw that from the start.

I mean, the two New Zealanders, an ex-triathlete and his mate come and tap on your door.

And at that stage, you know, you've sold out and you're a great success.

I mean, what did you see in two times you straight away?

Sportswear brands are everywhere.

Yeah.

What was the difference?

What clicked in your mind?

Well, that's a good question because it's another example of where you start

and where you finish are two different things.

I mean, we saw a big opportunity in triathlon because triathlon, swim, bike and run.

So, you know, there's four sports plus a triathlon.

I always made a joke with one of my partners who's a great triathlon guy.

I said, well, triathletes are the people who can't swim, can't run and can't cycle.

But, you know, they can do all of it a little bit together.

But anyway, he didn't appreciate it.

But we saw that as a real opportunity.

So, was that the initial thought?

If we own the triathlon space, there's a good enough business in that?

Yeah.

But internationally, we thought there was.

We thought we could get the run and the swim and so forth.

But swim was tiny.

And the other thing in our business, in all my businesses, passion always takes right of way.

If you're passionate about something,

you always give it a shot.

You always give it a go because even if you fail, we'll celebrate value.

But you've just got to get things done.

You've got to execute.

And it was a situation we built up the triathlon and we were global pretty well from day one.

But we weren't getting the volume we wanted.

We weren't, you know, swimwear or wetsuits wasn't quite enough.

Cycle we weren't quite getting to.

And I had no, then I saw, you know, compression.

And I thought, what a great business this compression is because, you know, it's all sports.

It's essentially one fabric across not too many skews.

We knew we could be the best in the world at it.

You know, our product developers were the best people in fabrics.

We knew we could be best in the world.

And that's important.

You've got to be known for that.

I approached my two young partners and said, look, I want to do, I think we should do the compression.

It just suits us for all the reasons that I just gave you.

And they said, oh, I don't think so, Clyde.

I mean, it's, you know, it's, you know, we'd rather just stick to our, our, our triathlon, our swim, bike and run.

You know, we've got enough to do.

And I said, and this is where this passion comes in.

I said, listen, guys, if you felt passionate about something, whether I greeted it, believed in it or not, I'd give it a go.

I'd believe in it and I'd make it work as best as I, best I could.

Now, all I'm asking you.

Is you give me that same opportunity that I'll give you.

Now I could have easily, cause I had 80% of the business.

I could have easily said to them, just go and.

Go and make it happen.

Go and do it.

But it wouldn't have worked.

You had to get their, you had to get to their tie and their belief.

You know, they had to, they had to want to do it.

And so, you know, that's one example of this whole thing about, you know, growing a business.

It's about, I mean, you know, people say.

Um, you know, people say, well, how do you, how do you have a great business?

Well, you have a great business by one, having fantastic people and providing a environment where they flourish.

Now that's easy to say.

Gee, that's so bloody hard to do, you know, finding the right people.

There's so much wisdom, God, and so many places to go in that, in that conversation.

And you, and you, you were starting about, you know, it was almost advice to a young entrepreneur.

Yeah.

And I'd like to pick up on that for a moment, you know, have, having a great product, having the idea you can scale it, you know, passion, you know, without passion, you're not going to do the extra miles, are you?

No, no.

It just doesn't work.

What else was there on your list of that, that.

Well, you know, keep it simple.

Um, because again, um, people think complexity breeds success.

Not complexity does, it makes things harder, increases overheads and nothing happens.

So in that two-time view example was.

Oh.

Yeah.

We can be world's best.

Best in compression.

Yeah.

That's, you know, something we can achieve.

That doesn't have to be more complex than that.

No.

You know, that's a.

It's a simple product.

We do it well.

We do it better than anyone else.

Um, we, we don't, we don't, you know, go crazy on our, on our, on our breadth of products.

We just, we just keep it basic.

We keep it simple.

Um, and you know, people don't meet, but so many people think it's got to be complex to be good.

It's quite interesting.

It's, it's, I used to have, even the Davenport business, I used to have little A-frames on

my, on everyone's desk saying simplify.

I had, I had pads, yellow pads, because yellow was our color back in those days.

And I had simplify written on everyone's pads.

Half the time I said, can't you, can't you, uh, can't you read?

I mean, cause they weren't, you know, like, but it's, I just, people want to make things

complicated when it just increases the complexity and it more, and it reduces your speed.

To accident.

Cause you've got to be quick.

Yeah.

You've got to be quick.

I mean, um, we had, we had instances where, you know, I'd go into a, you know, going,

this is, I'm jumping around here, but going back to the Davenport days, we had instances,

I'd go into, have a, have a meeting with Meyer and the buyer was there saying, oh geez, Bond's

just let us down.

You know, they're supposed to deliver 10,000 pairs of boxer shorts to us before Christmas

and we can't do it.

And I'd say, I'd be thinking to myself, I know the factory I can use.

I know the fabric I can use.

Um, I'd say, we can do it, you know, we'll, we'll do your 10,000, um, and some way I don't

know, get back to the office and I'll tell the guys and they'd say, what the hell, how

are we going to do this?

And I said, well, we'll make it happen.

We'll just do it.

Uh, you know, we, I knew we could, we knew, I knew we could do it if we just focused on

it.

Yeah.

Don't make it too, too hard.

Yeah.

They're, they're great lessons, aren't they?

In, in, in, and it's funny, isn't it?

Because there's simplicity in the messages too.

Yeah.

And clearly it's something you, you, you stuck to as well, you know, and I, and I heard your

talk was also in the research for this about delegation in business that you need as opposed

to abdication.

Oh yeah.

Can you explain what you mean by that?

Yeah.

Um, yeah, look, um, you know, as business grows, you're gonna have more and more people

in the organization.

There's no question.

Um, um, you create an environment where they can all flourish, um, you must delegate because

unless you can delegate, then your business will never grow substantially.

You can't do everything yourself, so you've got to delegate, educate.

Um, but too many people make the mistake is delegating something and then just abdicating

their position.

Oh, I've told such and such to do something, so my job's done.

Mm.

Uh, every, every, every time you walk past them, how's that going?

How's that project going?

Have you, you know, have we got that delivery yet?

Um, have you spoke to, uh, have you spoke to the, you know, to the buyer?

Oh, he said he'd call me back.

We'll call him again.

Like, you know, it's, um, look, there's nothing, there's nothing complex about business.

It's just, it's just being attentive, um, understanding your customer, follow up.

I mean, it's, there's no rocket science and yet it's just frustrating to see how many

people out there don't do it.

It's quite bizarre.

Well, you said before we started, uh, you know, you, you, you didn't, you didn't, you

didn't go down the traditional path and, and, um, but the fundamentals of what you're

saying, I mean, as you said, it's, uh, that you're not reinventing the wheel, but clearly

you followed through on those things and, and there's so much great wisdom in, in, in

that.

I'll, I'll go back to other things that, you know, you go from Davenport, which you do

yourself into a partnership, you're the major shareholder, but partnerships are complex

as well, aren't they?

Mm.

And, and a lot of partnerships break down.

You gave a great example, isn't it?

I, I could have just dictated, hey, we're going to do compression, but you, you collaborated,

more than dictate, it sounds like, which again, lines up with, you know, where we see

the world heading.

What, what was the secret to that partnership being successful?

Oh, look, that, that was an extraordinary partnership because you essentially had, um,

three guys with three different, um, three different, um, talents, three different, um,

skill sets.

Yeah.

Three different, totally, skill sets.

You had, uh, Aiden, uh, was, uh, he's, he's come from a sales marketing background.

He, um, I call him our, our great snake or salesman, but he was, uh, I mean, he was,

he was one of the best sales guys I've ever come across.

So what made him so good?

Um, he just has empathy with people.

Um, you know, he's a great communicator, he's a great networker, um, he's a great guy, um,

he loves people, he loves, he loves, uh, he's passionate about what he does, um, he follows

up.

He does, he just does all the things well and in a, in a really, you know, with a really

nice nature to go with it.

He's an enthusiast.

He's a, he's a team leader.

He's a, he's a, um, a cheerleader, uh, and is a cheerleader for the organization.

So you need those people in the company.

Yeah.

So you had, you had to go like that, um, and then you had Jamie who would just love product,

love, love product development, love fabrics.

I mean, he'd get, uh, if he, if he had a lot of fabrics on this table, he'd just, he'd

get off on, you know.

I mean, that, that's, that's, you know, denier rating of this and the quality of this and

the feel of that and the power of it.

I mean, it's, you know, he just loved that.

And then I was the sort of one who, I, I get a kick out of sales, uh, product and sales

or product and marketing.

So, and I was sort of the, I sort of kept the, the thing together.

Like, you know, I thought, you know, if you put, you know, and I've said, I'd say this

to his face, like Aiden, if you put Aiden in charge of, um, of expenses and, uh, I don't,

uh, overhead, I said to him once, it'd be like putting Dracula in charge of the blood

bank.

You know, like he just, it's not his thing.

But so he has to, you know, you just sort of support that part of the business.

And Jamie, on the other hand, um, you know, Jamie's quite risk averse, um, so, but he

is also a good salesman because he knows his product.

So it was a, it was a group of people who came together with very different skill sets

that complimented each other remarkably well.

And as you described then it's, it's.

It's people knowing their roles and doing them really well and then being able to identify

that.

It sounds like you, you, you got that right from the start.

I mean, it was clearly that, that story you tell about, you know, going into compression,

which ends up being, you know, the fundamentals of the business, of the business effectively,

isn't it?

But were there conflicts along the way, did you have to, you know, resolve much or did

it?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Look, um, um, I shouldn't, I shouldn't quote it.

I mean, we had, um, you know, we'd have stand up arguments.

Um.

Um, about all sorts of different things, um, but you know, it wasn't, it was never a problem

because it was, it was everyone's, I guess because we were three owners to an extent

and the success of the business impacted us each financially.

So although we had a lot of, you know, disputes, we never, um, we always resolve them, uh,

because we knew that everyone was trying to achieve the same, the same thing.

We just had different ideas how to get there.

Um, so, and, and we never, um, we never, you know, like I always had the greater shareholding,

but that was never, that was never discussed in an argument.

I never said, never ever said, you know, well, this is it, uh, you know, I've got the most

shareholding, so therefore I win.

Um, nor did, uh, um, you know, I always had a saying that, uh, no one's, you know, everyone's

got a right to a greater deal.

Yeah.

No one's got a monopoly on good ideas.

I mean, um, you know, if, if we got a guy in the warehouse had an idea, we'd embrace

it on marketing, we'd embrace it.

Um, we might've had an argument if I thought a product, uh, wasn't good or there's a better

way to do it over an argument with Jamie, but ultimately, um, we'd sort it out to see

who, you know, who the best idea wins, best idea wins.

Um, and people say that, uh, Clyde, but you know, to foster a culture where, you know,

the best idea wins.

You actually have to live that too, don't you, as you said.

And, and I always found that interesting, isn't it?

Big organizations, often the guy in the warehouse knows the product, you know, as well as anyone.

If they don't feel as though there's a forum to be able to have that thought, it, it, it,

it never comes to the surface and you miss out on good ideas, don't you?

I mean, you must've created a culture where people felt like they could put their hand

up and, and have a go.

Well, even more than that, Luke, because, you know, what I'd say to people is that if

we're not failing, we're not trying.

Um, you know, we, we'd celebrate fire.

I mean, you know, people come, look, when we weren't silly about it, like if someone

came to me and had this idea, it was going to like, it was put the, uh, financial would

financially stress the company.

Well, of course we wouldn't do it.

But if someone had a good idea and, you know, it wasn't a big, uh, financial burden, then

of course we'd give it a go.

And, and, and if it didn't work, we'd say, well, at least you gave it a go.

I mean, the one thing, the one thing that I think is important is that if you're not

doing it, the one thing we could not stand in business is procrastination.

Just can't stand it.

I mean, just.

You're about to launch on, um, and you're canning this war and go, yeah, have an effing

go, mate, I think is where you're going.

And, um, and I love it.

I mean, it's a great thing, isn't it?

To, to foster that culture around, you know, be bold enough to have a cray.

I mean, the Americans talk about failing fast, don't they?

Yeah.

Get, get on with it.

Learn really quickly.

Whereas in Australia, it seems as though we have got this fear of failure mentality.

Oh, it's tough.

It's awful.

Look, I mean, I, I, I, I see people that say, um, you know, I won't mention names, but there's,

there's, you know, I've had a guy, a girl, a guy and a girl kind of been saying, look,

um, I've tried this and, you know, it's not working.

Um, and, but I think I failed.

And, uh, I say, look, you haven't failed at all.

Have you, have you noticed that someone who never tries something never fails?

I mean, it's been like even in, you know, in sporting days, you know, when we were young,

when I was young, um, you know, my sports were swimming and water polo.

And I saw so many great swimmers and water polo players that didn't apply themselves that,

that could have been out and out champions.

But it seemed to be okay for them to say, well, I could have been as good as that guy if I had

trained, if I had trained harder.

Well, I mean, so what?

So have a red hot go and fail.

And there's, you know, you're not failing.

You're just, you know,

It's like ideas.

I mean, everyone has a great idea.

Lots of people have great ideas, but great ideas are worthless until you try and execute

it.

But no one wants to execute.

I mean, oh, I've got a, I've got a great idea.

I've got a great idea there.

Well, you know, so what?

The execution is a hard thing.

Everyone can have a good idea.

It's like, look, um, as I said, I mean, a lot of things I do, um, I did read a book, um,

uh, with Steven Sinek and some of the things.

Simon Sinek?

Simon Sinek.

Yeah.

And I, um, I'd be no good in the corporate, in, in corporate because a lot of things I do,

um, I do because I, it, it just feels, it feels right.

And I couldn't have, and Simon Sinek would say, well, that's because your ideas come

to the limbic part of your brain and which has no ability to communicate.

So I think I would never have succeeded in, in,

in corporate because a lot of the stuff that I do, I don't think I could communicate an

argument well enough to get my boss to, to do it.

Um, and a lot of the things I do are quite intuitive.

Now that's not to say that, um, you know, I do things in a scattered kind of approach,

but unless you give people, unless you, you know, leadership, unless you give people the

opportunity to, to not only come up with an idea, but,

more importantly, to execute the idea and fail, then, you know,

your organization's never going to be successful.

Um, um, so look, I'm a person who, you know, I thrive in probably startups.

I thrive in, in smaller business, you know, up to from zero to 150 million,

but I don't think I'd be any good at the next level.

Um, because I need to be close to people.

Um, and I love your self-awareness,

Colin.

You know yourself so well, and, and, and you obviously were able to do that at a young

age and pick the path that was going to work for you, uh, you know, along that, along that

journey.

And as you can see, the, the, the sort of the passion to understand that and to, you

know, every pub and bar around the country and around the world is littered with people

that could have been something.

And that was my pet, uh, hate too, to be honest with you, playing sport for a living,

Colin, in the early days, you'd always go back to where you grew up and so on and so

on.

So, you know, my old Billy was a much better player than you and he could have been, and

he didn't, you know, you didn't want to sort of, you know, egotistically say, well,

no, he couldn't have been because he didn't train hard enough and he didn't do any of

it.

He never had a go.

So, um, I did.

That was why, now, you know, there were plenty of people better at it than me, but it wasn't

through lack of having a go, putting yourself in the arena, is it, and trying and far, and

then you find success along the way, you know, that you launch something and you have a go.

Definition of success to me, it's always about this outcome to sit here at the end with Clyde

and say, he sold the business for multi-million dollars and that's success.

But you,

you must, the success happens along the way too, doesn't it?

Without getting to that point.

And, and success is the journey.

Yeah.

You know, people talk about the journey.

I mean, which, you know, some of the things, like when I say, like today, if I was speaking,

I'd be saying I pivoted.

Well, don't you hate this, this jargon stuff?

Um, uh, you know, the, the success, I mean, when I look back on my career, I mean, the

most enjoyable times were, were some of the early days and the hardest days.

And, you know, it's not about, you know, if you go into a business with the view of

ultimately making money, then you'll never do any well.

You go into business because you love it, you enjoy it, you can make a difference, you're

passionate.

And, you know, if you're lucky, the by-product would be, um, financial, some financial success.

And you hear that a lot, Clyde, for, for, you know, anyone in a startup, you know, it's

that nerve wracking time and you're going for it and you're just, I just give anything

for sustained success at that point in time.

Yeah.

But, but.

But the amount of people we sit back and think the happiest time for them was in that, as

you said, you're running around cutting a bit of fabric together, you're on the table,

you look back with, with.

They're the great, they're the great times you look back on.

You look back on the times when, you know, you've got to get an order out, you're, you're

in a, you're in a factory, you're, you're helping, you know, roll out the fabric and

cut the fabric with the, with the, the workers in the, in the factory.

You know, you're there till, you know, three in the morning.

You have quick shower, you know, jump in your car, you, you take the samples or the

product to the, to the retailer or whatever.

They're the things that you look back on, on exceptionally fondly.

I mean, at the time that they're very stressful, but, you know, they're the best times, you

know, they're the best times in hindsight.

I'm thinking of my great friend, Craig Ellis Clyde, who played with at the Bulldogs and

he, I'll never forget the call.

I interviewed him on this podcast, but he rang me.

And he said, I'm moving to Hong Kong, starting a bikini business.

I've met a girl on a beach and, and, you know, we're going to try and sell online bikini.

I thought that's the craziest idea I've ever heard in my life.

But you talk to him and he'd been 10 years of prior to that and had success and failure

and understood manufacturing.

So there's a lot of experience behind that story, but the creativity of understanding,

you know, neoprene as a fabric that he was going to use, it's, it's, it's, you know,

it went next level, you know, with some really clever, you know,

really clever marketing and using social media, you know.

Yeah, that was amazing.

I mean, I actually looked at that because when he came around to, this is a number of

years ago, he, he came, he was looking to sell.

I don't know what he's, did he sell it in the end?

No, he hasn't.

No, he hasn't.

So, and, and I looked at it and I thought, what a great, what a great story this guy's

got.

I mean, you know, it's phenomenal.

But the reason I didn't get in.

Well, you know, that he, he created a phenomenal business.

I had a question mark over, you know, the sustainability, just as I had a question mark

over when I started Boxer Short.

So I'm not, that's no criticism.

His job was to actually, and I hope he has, his job was to take that triangle, I think

it was called triangle.

Because he was, you know, he was pioneering that whole social, you know, digital, you

know, get it out on the right people.

It's fantastic.

Um, but he really, uh, you know, you really need to keep evolving.

Um, you need to find the next triangle, the next product.

Yeah.

And I don't know what he's done.

Yeah.

Look at, they, um, he won't mind me saying, you know, it was him and his partner at the

time.

They had two kids, they separated and then, uh, Aaron and, uh, and, uh, and Craig.

So they, you know, the business ended up going and he probably would, you know, without speaking

for him, Claude, would resonate with you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, uh, taking off, he's a creative genius in the sustainable going forward model.

That's a different person, but, you know, triangle's got an enormous, uh, uptake still and, and

put great people in place.

And then he comes back in with the creativity, uh, stuff.

So they have crossed that bridge that you were talking about.

And I think he was asking himself the same question too, you know, and for him, a bit

like you, is the passion there to keep doing it?

It sounds like when you sold Davenport was the same deal.

It's like the passion's run out.

But that, that's become, uh, you know, a lot of parallels, I think, to, to your world.

I heard you speak before about angel investing.

Does that still, do you still have, you know, things that come across your desk that you,

you're inspired by?

Oh yeah.

And I love it.

I mean, I, I quite often, um, you see lots of stuff coming across your desk and there's

nothing better to, um, to get involved with, with younger people in, in business, even,

even for coffee.

I mean, stacks of times I, I would, uh, if someone calls me.

I think that's another thing that young entrepreneurs should think about is that, um, people like

to help, you know, a lot of, a lot of young, a lot of kids sort of think, well, I can't

impose on that person, but people love to help.

So, you know, get all the help you can, you know, ask.

I mean, again, in the worst case scenario, you'd get a, a no.

Um, and as I said earlier, no, no is always no for now.

Um, but, um, I just forget where we were.

Well, it's funny.

It's funny.

It's funny.

It's funny.

It's funny, isn't it, Clive?

Because I, I, I, you know, um, reached out to you.

People had mentioned you many times in these conversations and podcasts.

It's the same story, isn't it?

I, I, I, I contacted you on LinkedIn and you told me, uh, you never, never use it.

No, no.

So it was a miracle.

But, uh, if it turns out we probably live five or 600 meters apart potentially, uh,

and so you're right.

You know, you're going to get no's.

Some people just aren't interested in doing it.

But on with you.

People genuinely like to help and want to, and want to pass on their wisdom.

Yeah.

And, and particularly with young, young guys that, young guys and girls that want to have

a go.

I mean, you're long.

Always sort of sit down and sort of give them some time and give them some help if

you can.

Um, occasionally you'll invest in their business.

Um, but only if, uh, only if they need it.

I mean, most people would come to me for finance.

I'd say, well, look, you know, if you can get it from, the best place to get finance

is from your bank.

I mean, if you can get, if you can keep partners out of it, um, do it.

I mean, I say that, um, but I had two young partners, but that was a different stage.

Yeah.

Of my, my, um, career.

Um, I'd never have a partner in my first business, the second business.

Was there a, when going back to the early day, I'm asking that question because, you

know, clearly you're able to do it on your own, but you were six weeks away.

If I, if I read that right around, maybe going back to advertising.

Yeah.

I mean, how tempting was it then to try and get some money to, to keep it going?

Or were you of the opinion, I need to do this without extra partners?

No, look, I have a, I have a view that within a year, a year to 18 months, you should be

able to tell whether this, this idea's got legs or not.

Yeah.

Um, and as much as I'd say, be persistent and give it a crack.

The other thing I'd say is that if it's not working, um, and you've given it a real red

hot crack, know when to move on.

Yeah.

Know when to move on because you don't want to bury, make you, dig yourself a hole that's

so big that you can't get out of it.

And have you done that in other spaces?

Have you got to the point with something?

Yeah.

Somewhere you've gone, okay, look, you know, it's not going to work.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

Um, you know, it, it happens and, uh, um, you've got to know when to, when to exit.

I mean, everyone will tell you the, the, the good stuff, but, um, you know, any businessman,

um, you know, throughout, throughout Davenport, throughout, uh, two times a year, we made

lots of mistakes where we lost money, um, but never enough to put us in, you know, if

I'm not mistaken.

And, and even you can, you might say to yourself, well, why did you, um, why did you in two times

you, why did you, uh, sell down?

Cause we sold down twice.

Well, almost three times, um, the third time to the last investor.

But, and the reason, um, you know, if that had been the first business, I probably wouldn't

have sold down.

But, um, we sold down in that case, uh, the first time not to, uh, you know, to, you know,

not that we needed more money into the business, but we wanted to de-risk the business somewhat.

So we wanted to take some money out, particularly the young guys who'd worked for, you know,

for about three years on, on, um, you know, not a great salary or, you know, sweat equity.

Um, they wanted to sort of take a bit of risk off the table.

Um, that's what they did.

Um, uh, and it worked, uh, because the, the people who got involved both, um, you know,

Tanara, John Wiley's group.

Um, they, um, they, um, they, um, they, um, they, um, they, um, they, um, they, um, they,

they were great.

And then, uh, El Capital, um, uh, they were part of the Louis Vuitton group, um, and they

were very beneficial.

Biggest retailer in the world as a partner.

I'll give you one example.

Um, uh, we just, we're just about, we just signed a lease in, uh, Newport Beach in, in

LA for a new, uh, a new store.

And, and we were, um, uh, I think we had a cut, I can't remember the exact figures.

I think it was a two or $300,000 fit out.

Um.

Um, contribution from the, from the landlord or from the center.

Um, we had a guy from Louis Vuitton, uh, when they bought in on our board.

Anyway, the, the, uh, the, uh, retailer, uh, the center said, oh, well, you've changed

your, uh, you've changed your, um, ownership more than I think it was 15%.

So we're going to, you can continue to be in the center, but we don't have to give you

the, um, the fit out, the fit out contribution.

Um, and I said, well, why?

Well, you know, we've, you know, we're in the best financial position we've ever been.

You should be, you should be happy, you know?

Yeah.

You're saying you're not going to pay the contribution.

No, we don't have to.

So I made a call to, uh, I made a call to, uh, one of the, the director and I said, listen,

we've got this trouble.

And he said, leave it with me.

And, uh, I wasn't party to the conversation that he had, but I can imagine it went something

like this.

Do you want Louis Vuitton?

Uh, do you want, uh, uh, Tag Heuer?

Do you want Dior?

Um, do you want, uh, I don't know.

Every other brand in the shopping center.

In the shopping center.

It was fixed.

Yeah.

So.

The contribution was paid and so taking the right partner on, not only did.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they were, they were sort of, they were very helpful.

Um.

Ah, brilliant story, Colm.

These questions probably will sound, uh, formal for you because I love it.

And that's why I love speaking to different people.

When you, you've, you've, you've tread your own path and you said to me at the start of

this, you didn't, you've never really had a business plan.

It's.

You know, but you, the intelligence of your intuition you can see and, and how you've

been able to create that success is, is fascinating to me.

But we're fascinated about what leadership looks like from different people when, you

know, whether it's you starting out in advertising and continuing retail success or people in

social venture.

And we're seeing there is a pattern of different leadership and, and, and the first dimension

that we, we're, we're seeing is this idea of self leadership that you can have to lead

yourself first before you can lead others.

When I say that to you.

What, what does that mean?

Um, look, what does it mean?

I, I think, I think there's so many different, as you say, there's so many different leadership

styles.

There's so many ways to, to motivate staff.

Um, there's so many different cultures.

Um, I think you have to have a, a leadership style, a culture and a way of doing things

that suits you.

You have to have your own personality.

Like for example, my leadership style is, is collaboration.

It's trying to nurture, it's, it's support, it's help, it's, it's, um, giving permission

to fail.

Um, it's selling my ideas.

Um, someone else's leadership style may be, um, well, I'm the leader, uh, I'm the general,

you know, this is, this is the plan.

And I want all you, you people out there to follow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, it's just not my personality.

Um, it could very well work and, you know, particularly in times of crisis, I understand

that, that, that leadership style perhaps is the right one.

I mean, if you're going into battle, you can't have, you know, five different people sort

of telling you, well, what should we do now?

Um, but also I, I take accountability as a leader and the people who, you know, in,

in business report to me, um, I asked them to take accountability for what they do.

Um, but I don't shirk away from, I don't abdicate that responsibility either. Um, so look, I don't

know if that answers your question, but, um, it does. Yeah, really clearly. I think you got such

a clear understanding of who you are and not trying to be someone else. And I think that's

where a lot of us fall, fall down, isn't it? Where you go, geez, I want to be a success like

Clyde Davenport or a success like, uh, however it is. And you're really not being true to who

you are and your own values. And so I get that from you, that sense of your own values and then

applying that and also, you know, collaborating with other skillsets to support you is, it sounds

like a really, really clear. Actually, someone asked me once what motivates me. And I said,

I thought about it for a few minutes and I said, a healthy level of insecurity, um, which I probably

still believe that today. Um, so I'm not a person who, um,

thinks I know, know it all. I mean, I think I'm a person who, um,

you know, has a, has a sort of a intuition about how to do things, but will ask for help and

support where I need it and not be, um, not be egotistical enough to think that I know it all

because I certainly don't. I love that line, a healthy level of insecurity in the current world

of, you know, of mental health being such a, a thing we're all aware of.

And, you know, sitting down with a number of different people on this podcast and talking

about, well, it's mental health is a continuum for everyone. And so anxiety is really helpful

in one level, if you've got it at a healthy level, as you described, because that's what

motivates you, doesn't it? It gets you off the board. Can I be good enough to do this? Can I

create two times you? Can I, you know, I've put some money in, am I going to make that a success?

So without any of that, you haven't got motivation at all, have you? And so.

And one of the, one of the, you know, one of the failings I have, and I recognize it and I try,

and I've got many failings, but one of them that I recognize is that often when we have success,

rather than celebrate the success straight away, I think, shit, how, how are we going to,

how are we going to duplicate the success next year? What are we going to do to get the numbers

next year? So, and I guess that's sort of this sort of, you know, not being brazen enough or

bold enough to think, oh, we can do it. I think, shit, how are we going to do this?

How are we going to do it again?

How are we going to do it again?

But you're comfortable celebrating failure, where there's a real strength, isn't it?

Mm-hmm.

It sounds like. It's, it's fascinating. And in the sporting context, Clive, that's really

changed. Like, there's always this, unless you win the premiership or the ultimate prize,

you can't celebrate at all. And we know that's a really unhealthy thing. You know,

when you win in a week, you've got to celebrate to get that feeling again. And there's been a

real shift now in understanding to celebrate those, those wins along the way. The next

dimension is we see leaders who've had great success. Like, you're really conscious around

how they positively impact others in their environment.

And how did you go about that in your, in your world?

Oh, look, you've got to care for people. You know, people aren't just, people aren't just

employees of numbers. They're, they're people. They're, they're, they're associates. They're

friends. They're, they're, and unless you, unless you support the person, you know, you

won't, you know, you won't have a good business. You've got to be genuine. If someone's in

need, you've got to support them. I mean, you talk about the

mental health, health issue. If someone's struggling, you've got to get around them

and support them. You just don't cast them at a drift or say, well, you know, harden

up, get on with it. You've got to find out, you've got to understand beyond the, beyond

the workplace. You know, what are the, like, does the, does the, the male or female have

issues at home? You know, you know, they have elderly parents. So how are they going with

their, with their kids?

I mean, it's, you know, where you can, I think you've got to show empathy. I like all

our people to be showing, to be humble. I can't stand, I can't stand people who are

like, you know, we've had people in the organization who, you know, were more interested in, you

know, brand, their own brand, brand, you know, brand X, brand, their name. I won't mention,

brand their name, brand their name, rather than the brand two times you. But we try and

move them on pretty quickly because, you know, you want to, you want to, you know, people

call it culture, but if you don't create an environment where, where people are comfortable,

people aren't afraid to make decisions, people celebrate failure and success, then, you know,

environments I've worked in, it, it doesn't work.

Yeah.

It just doesn't work, you know.

And you identify people like that pretty quickly and you're not the right fit for us. You're

not going to be helpful.

Yeah. And you've got to, and they're tough. I mean, they're tough conversations because

if someone has to move on from the organization, I mean, generally it's, it's, they're not,

you know, they're not working out for you. You know, they're not enjoying it. And, you

know, the discussion, you know, where I've had to get involved with, you know, I've had

to get involved and move people on, which is, you know, no one gets used to that. It's

awful. But the reality is ultimately, um, the person in that position, uh, will thrive

somewhere else. So it's not, you know, they're not working for us, but they'll thrive somewhere

else.

Andrew Bassett on this podcast from Seek, you know, that's their business and, and he,

that's exactly the language he used. It's the fit's not right here. We've done everything

we can to explore that. You know, we genuinely wish you well. There will be a space that,

um,

and whatever we can do to support that we would like to do. But, you know, he talked

about hiring slowly and firing quickly was the language he used.

And it's difficult. I mean, because, I mean, to be honest with you, I mean, uh, you know,

fortunately, uh, um, as we built up, you know, as I've been in organizations where we've

built up at the start, you do a lot of that. Um, but fortunately then you have, uh, you

know, key, key people in, in places where, um, some of that gets offloaded.

Offloaded to others, to others, which, uh, because no one enjoys it. I mean, that is

all good stuff.

Nah.

But it, it, but it, but as, uh, Andrew Bassett would say, I mean, it's, it's the best for

the candidate. It's the best for the company, but it's hard conversations.

And it is just the reality of, of any business, isn't it? You're not going to be a hundred

percent, are you? You're going to have people come through no matter how good your, your

policy is, you, you know, but it's identifying. And as you said, it's not, when you've got

empathy, it's not fun, is it? It's not.

No. And the thing is, is that, you know, interviews are so hard. I mean, um, you know, you've got

to, you know, there's, uh, you know, some people are very good at interviewing. Other

people are terrible. Um, but it's, uh, it's finding, you know, like, and, you know, um,

the Americans are so polished when they interview. I mean, it's quite extraordinary how they,

they sound fantastic. And some, you know, I'm not saying they're not, but they do it

better than a lot of Aussies, I think.

Incredibly articulate, aren't they? The Americans, they, uh, can sell their messages as well

as anyone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're being really aware and conscious

of how they create and share the vision for what they want to do. And it sounds like you've

been really clear on that in the spaces you've been in, and you shared a little bit of that

before around, you know, how you've gone about stuff at two times. Is that right?

Creating and sharing a vision. How did you go about that?

Um, I think, I think, um, I think like most things, uh, when you, you start with a, you

you have a clear vision when you start a, when you start a business, you have a clear

vision. Um, you have to bring everyone along with you. You have to, you have to continually,

um, remind people, educate people. Um, you know, every company has a story they've got

to tell, a product they've got to sell. Um, but it can change. And I think, I think the

thing is, is that if there are changes along the way, you have to bring in the whole business

to understand the changes. Like, I'm just trying to think, like, um, well, uh, well

even with, um, even with, uh, let's take two times you. We started off with, with triathlon,

swim, bike and run. And that was going okay, but it wasn't, it didn't have the sort of

the massive growth we were, we expected. Then along came, um,

um, uh, compression, two times your compression. So, um, the vision had changed slightly. The

vision had changed from, you know, well, it hasn't changed. I mean, we wanted to be the

first Australian global sportswear brand. You know, Australia's been known for a lot

of things. It's, you know, from surfing, they've got great sportsmen, but they, we don't have

a global, or we didn't have a global sportswear brand. So we wanted to.

So the Rip Curls and, had done it in the surf space.

Surf space.

No one had done it.

But none had done it in the.

In the, in a, um, in a sporting space. And yet we've got the best sporting teams in the

world. I mean, it's, that's crazy. So that's what we.

So you identified that and thought there's a, there's a, there's a gap here.

Yeah.

And, and how big was it, you know, Kanye West is in the news a lot, but you suddenly got

US Navy SEALs and you, you got international sporting team. Was that a big boost to it

when they adopted the product? Was it?

Yeah. And it, it, you know, you've got to have authenticity. You've got to have belief.

I mean, the, the Navy SEAL was a funny one. Um, Aiden,

um, Aiden, you know, was at our LA office and, uh, um, somehow got introduced to a guy

called Jeff Nichols, who was a ex Navy SEAL out of SEAL Team Six. And we were, um, he

by chance, um, in, because he was really big into recovery. He by chance had tested all

the different, uh, compression ranges out there. Um, and ours was best by far. I mean,

the likes of, so you've got to understand the likes of Nike and Adidas.

Adidas, they all did compression ranges, but they'll bring out a shoe range, which

is, which is, you know, would, way bigger than, you know, the compression category,

let alone anything else. So we, we, we had the best. There's no question it was the best.

Product was, you were absolutely convinced that you were ahead of everyone.

Yeah. And so, and so we met just Jeff Nichols, who, uh, uh, he had all these SEALs training

in the gear. So, you know, they would sort of do their exercises. I'd jump out of planes.

I'd, you know, jump in the water.

I'd crawl across sand, you know, and he loved the stuff. And so Aiden said to me one day,

he said, uh, um, I think we should, uh, employ this guy cause we're trying to get into, into

the military. And he had great introductions to the military. He loved our product. And

I said, you know, this guy, um, you know, they're, they're, you know, they're trying

to kill us. I mean, you know, they're, this guy was a great guy. Um, and I said to Aiden,

look, I'm happy for you to, uh, employ him, but if it doesn't work out,

you're firing, you're firing him, not me.

Smart, uh, smart thought. Uh, I mean, I, I remember, you know, exactly the same time,

you know, playing and then this, this, you got to get hold of compression garments from

two times. Yeah. Just the word, you know, when you're flying on a plane, we all, we

all purchased it, you know, we all got onto it. So the, you're right. That's going back

to just saying, what are your world's best at and identifying and generally hand on heart

being able to, to know that you were. Well, interesting enough, I might, that's a bit

of a plug here, but.

Yeah. The, um, this whole, this, this theory range we're doing, um, for, um, pre and post

pregnancy.

What's the name of it?

It's called theory.

Yeah.

Spelled, it's called theories, the reason why. So T-H-E capital R capital Y.

Yep.

So everything we do, everything we do, there's a reason why. And, uh, the girl that, uh,

is running the business, uh, Cindy, uh, she comes, she used to work for two times you

in all the product development for our compression.

Um, so, um, she's, she's now at, uh, she's now producing garments for, um, prenatal and

postnatal that, that helps support physiologically, not only the woman, the women have trouble

with, um, swelling and, you know, some varicose veins and all sorts of issues. Um, but it

also, after, um, I'm not, you can tell I'm not the technical person here, but after,

uh, um, six or 12 weeks of pregnancy, the blood flow actually helps the nutrients to

the baby. So, um, she, her experience in material science and fabrics, um, is phenomenal

because there are products out there that are compression that do a job, but they're

so uncomfortable. So she's being able to develop a lightweight product that, um, uh, feels

good.

It's super comfortable that the woman can wear all day, but has these physiological

benefits. Now, the issue she's got is, is education because to look at it, um, one pair

of maternity tights looks like another pair. So her challenge in business is to, is to

educate. Um, uh, but her material science background gives her the, the authenticity,

uh, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,

and the knowledge that we know it's the best on the market. So it, we've sort of taken a

leaf out of two times you for this pregnancy business, although it's a lot sort of smaller

niche.

Yeah.

And any, anything anyone does out there, you know, it's not just doing what's already out

there. You've got to do something better. It's got to be different. It's got to be better.

Uh, but the challenge in today's environment that,

wasn't so much, you know, even 10 years ago is that, um, the media sources now to actually

try and tell your story to get it out there is so diverse and it's very difficult to get

your message out. So that's the challenge these days. I mean, it used to be, you know,

television, press, radio. Now it's, uh, you know, social, different social podcasts, blah,

blah, blah.

Yeah. It's, um, it is, isn't it? It's, it's a great opportunity and a great challenge,

isn't it?

Yeah.

So when you, when you, when you hit it and you get it right, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

as you did, you know, getting, uh, you know, the, the, the endorsement from that sort of

level of, um, you know, Julie Bishop, the foreign minister famously was a two times

you wear and, uh, the product became authentically out there. And I suppose we had, uh, um, we

had one of Nike's best athletes, uh, wearing the product. Uh, and we had, um, LeBron James,

uh, during the playoffs, he'd go in the locker rooms and put on, uh, two times you for recovery.

And, uh, and there was a first,

someone photographed him in the changing room, which, uh, we had to be careful how

we, um.

Would have upset the Nike team, I'm assuming, that one?

Well, we upset a few people along the way. We had another instance, which I can probably

tell now it wasn't, um, we, uh, during one of the Olympics, uh, the triathlete wanted

to wear, uh, two times you, um, tri suits. But Adidas had the, uh, Adidas had the rights.

Adidas came to us and said, well, you know, would you make our suits with the three stripes?

And we said, oh, we don't want to do that. What, you know, I will pay you for it. Well,

well, big deal. You pay us for, you know, a couple of dozen suits. I mean, it's not

going to be the, you know, what's it going to, it's not going to help us. But the athletes

came to us and said, um, uh, would you, um, would you make it for us? Because, uh, and

again, it's not a criticism of Adidas because Adidas.

It wasn't their niche.

It wasn't their niche.

Yeah.

They don't do triathlon. So it's not a criticism of Adidas. Adidas are a great company. But

anyway.

So we did the suits for them with the three stripes, but Adidas made a big mistake in

not having us sign a confidentiality agreement. So.

You can tell the story.

I tell the story. Well, we told the story and, uh, and we heard back, um, that they

were going to sue us. Uh, this is all, this is all rumour and innuendo. This is not, uh,

I'm not sure if you should be saying this over. But, um, I said, uh, well, I hope they

do because what, you know.

Even better story.

How much publicity would that be? It didn't happen.

Yeah. I love telling that opportunity, isn't it? And seeing it and clearly your mind goes

there, doesn't it? To say, where's the benefit? And in the end that would have, you know,

that's authenticity, isn't it? Athletes that are sponsored by, you know, one of the biggest

brands in the world saying, no, no, for performance, we need to wear the best product, um, which

is brilliant. The other dimension, the next one was, was curiosity, Clive. We see leaders

succeed. Curiosity is a word that comes up all the time and they approach their ability

to learn and develop through curiosity. Does that resonate?

Yeah. Well, curiosity and just keeping your eyes open. I mean, it's, um, it's, uh, like

I, it must be innate or it must be, um, I don't go out to plan these things, but everywhere

I look, everything, when I see a product or a service or something, I think, oh, gee,

that's interesting. How could, uh, how could that be done better? Or what business opportunity

is there? Um, uh, you know, whether it be a garment, whether it be color, um, you know,

we'd often in garments, we'd look at, well, you know, I like that part of, I like the,

the neck line of that garment. I like the color there, that, uh, that panel and the

legs, yeah, that must be helping the compression there. Um, so let's, what if we took all those

different aspects and put them together? We'd have the best product on the market.

And even today, I mean, you, you know, I even go back to underwear and I'm thinking to

myself, gee, you know, um, I see opportunities in that, which I didn't see, you know, 20

years ago. Um, you see opportunities, I don't know, you just, your brain is wired to notice

things and think how you could do them. I mean, you miss out on stuff. Years ago, um,

you know, as a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was

a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was

a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid,

I used to, you know, my footwear all summer was a pair of thongs. Um, and then for years

later, excuse me, um, you know, there's all sorts of beautiful sandals and, um, you know,

Birkenstocks and blah, blah, blah. And I was thinking to myself one day, you know, I should

bring in a couple of containers of rubber thongs because they were, you know, they're

the best to wear. I mean, how good are they? And then, you know, 12 months later, Havana's

start. I think, gee, I've got to go.

I missed the, I missed the boat there. But then I noticed just the other day, there was

another product called Archies who have just got a, a, uh, a twist on, on Havana's, which

are fantastic.

Funny, I saw that for the first time the other day as well. I walked into a personal training

studio and, uh, it's funny, the studio, the guy just text me then as we speak, you know,

having an arch in a thong. The, the, the ones we grew up with were brilliant, but probably

horrific for your, for your feet. So, you know, I can just say, even as you're looking,

you're looking around the room, your mind's constantly, you know,

John Bertram was sitting in this very chair not long ago, the legendary Hall of Fame sporting,

you know, John, the small world, but just, you know, the curiosity in his mind, constantly

asking, constantly wanting to know how something works, constantly. And as you said, it's an

innate thing that is a, is a pattern for sure. Communicating with clarity, uh, Clyde, you

said at the start, you said, I wouldn't have been, uh, adept at, uh, the corporate world

because it wouldn't have suited you and the way that you communicate. But, but you've

clearly have a way of getting your message out and understanding it. How did you go about

in your mind, sort of communicating your message? Um, look, look, I think in, in business,

it's a tenant. I mean, you know, the communication is, is, is so important,

you know, communicate, communicate, communicate. Um, I guess from my perspective, I'm, I have no

real experience in informal communications. Um, you know, I don't,

I don't give presentations or, um, but nevertheless, uh, in, in small teams, um,

with nurturing people, you never stopped communicating. You never stopped trying to

give your lessons. You never stopped trying to impart your wisdoms on people. Um, uh,

you know, when, when Aidan and Jamie first came on board, um, you know, I was able to

short circuit a lot of stuff, you know, with, with Aidan and marketing,

of course. Um, you know, I had a level of experience. I had the level of, I guess,

you know, wisdom. Um, uh, so I'm not diminishing in any way because I said I'm not a particularly,

I don't see myself as a particularly good communicator. I don't, I'm probably talking

more formally, but I do see myself as, you know, as the, uh, as the number one person to be able

to tell the company, the brand story and communicate.

Well, and, and keep everyone informed and, um, you know, it's, it's so important, you know,

I tell, you know, with, with people, I say, communicate, communicate, communicate. I say

cost is your enemy. Um, cost is your enemy. Yeah. Um, you know, in business, I mean,

um, you know, I think it's, I think it's fanciful how, you know, some people, you know, often,

and I'm generalizing here, but often,

when corporate people decide they want to start their own business, um, in whatever it is,

they seem to dwell on, on environment. They seem to want to get an office set up in the secretary

and a, um, get the warehouse set up with the right, um, pick faces, et cetera, et cetera,

and work out transport. And I'm thinking to myself, hang on, you know, if you want to give,

like, take that, take that, take that, take that, take that, take that, take that, take that, take that,

a hundred thousand I started with, if I'd have done that, I would have been, I would have blown

up in the first month. A hundred thousand dollars isn't a lot of money. If I'd have gone out and

searched for warehouse space, got a, got a beautiful office. I, I started off, um, uh,

we had, uh, Debbie and myself, our, our baby was in, we had a two bedroom terrace. We were in one

room and my office warehouse was in the front room of a two bedroom terrace. And then, then,

then the next thing we were able to do is, is, um, get a small office, um,

you know, it was on a three level in Bouverie street. And then, you know, so, um, you know,

it's communication's important. Cost control is important. Um, being able to tell your stories

is important. Um, simplifying is important. Having a red hot go is important. Um, I'm not

sure how I prioritize those things, but you've just got to do them and live them.

Yeah. It's sort of, maybe I should some stage, sit down and write a one pages to, you know,

number one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. I mean, maybe, maybe that's the, uh, I'd love to

read it. Um, you know, Jeff Harris from flight center had done that exercise and he sent it to

me before the interview, uh, client. And I loved it. He said, I just see some scribblings. He said

of my thoughts on, you know, the flight center story world from incredible, but just, you know,

a masterclass.

It's a bit like your thoughts on, on trial and error, but what consistently work for them. And

you know, worth going back if you hadn't listened to Jeff's, uh, episode, but you can sell, you've

got those patterns come up for you all the time in passion, in scalability, cost, knowing all of,

uh, that, that wisdom. It's a, it's a profound thing that you're sharing. You mentioned

collaboration. That's the next dimension I want to talk to you about. We see leaders now really

conscious that collaboration is, is a superpower. How did that work for you collaborating?

Oh, it's, uh,

it's paramount, um, uh, in every aspect. Um, and to give two times you as the, uh, as the

example, um, Jamie, Aidan, ourself would collaborate on everything, even though,

you know, Jamie was, you know, the so-called, well, not so-called, he was the product guy.

Aidan was the sales marketing guy. I was sort of the CEO come interest in both of those things. But,

um,

you know, as I said earlier, no one's got, uh, a monopoly on a good idea. We, everything we do,

we'd collaborate. Every idea we, we, we talk about, we'd collaborate. Uh, we'd be brutally

honest with each other. I mean, the nice thing about having the three owners like that is that

we're not, you know, too often, um, too often people, um, don't say what they think because

politically it's, you know, it's, they think it hurts someone's feelings or we start, we start

off saying, listen, we're all after the same thing. We're all after the same thing. We're all after the

same thing. We don't, you know, um, go for it. It hurt our, hurt our feelings. We don't care

about that. We just want, want success. Um, um, if I thought, uh, Aidan, I thought something was

a shit idea, I'd tell him it's a shit idea. Um, he'd say, why? And I'd tell him, and then we might

have an argument or I might say, oh yeah, you're probably right there or, or vice versa. I might

do something and he'd say, well, you know, why on earth would you possibly do that? And I'd say,

maybe you're right. Yeah. So we, we,

yeah.

You know, unless you're, uh, you know, I don't know, unless you're a, maybe Neil on Musk can do

that cause he's, he's, he's genius, but I certainly can't.

Yeah. I love it. I love the idea, isn't it? It's, um, you know, to, to create that environment where

the ego is dropped, isn't it? The best idea is going to win. And in practice, it doesn't matter

who's got the biggest shareholding or who's got the biggest title. It's like, if you've got the

same shared vision, then you're all trying to get there, aren't you? And, and it's not easy. I mean,

you know, like the best thing a CEO can do that doesn't have, I mean, the CEO has got to,

what a CEO really needs to do is make sure that, that people, uh, when they make sure that people

don't give him answers that they think he wants to hear. Um, and I think probably not enough CEOs

take that viewpoint because, but they've got to, because, um, we had one CEO, um,

as a business school, we had a CEO that, uh, I got upset about, um, you know, particularly Aidan and

Amy questioning his, some of his decisions, just as we grew, grew. And I said, mate,

you know, you've got the, you've got the best situation of all time because you've got these

two guys who will tell you what they think, not what they think you want to hear. And you should

embrace that, you know, not be upset by it. But that's the difference between a corporate point

of view and a, and, and an entrepreneurial sort of growth point. And if these, and these, um, what,

the corporate people have to do is engender that, that communication and that, that, uh, spirit of,

you know, speaking your mind, um, otherwise they'll just get what their leader is reflecting

back at them. So, I don't know. And it's a great message, isn't it? And we're passionate about that

and often as you, as you see leaders get to those roles and they're not surrounded at all by any of

what you're saying, they don't set that up for that opportunity. And you're often in a, in a,

in a bubble then.

Well, what's happening in your, you don't really know because everyone's too afraid to, to share it

with you. And so, you know, again, I can say it's a great thing that you, that you set up. And then,

you know, it's not always easy. No one likes being told their ideas, their shit, but, but if it helps

you to get better, um, well, you know, it's a, it's a great pattern that we're seeing, you know,

leaders are really, who, who have success in the, in the current climate do it really well.

But I think all these, um, I think what also helps these days is that, um, you know, these CEO groups

and so forth, like I'm in, I'm involved in, I'm involved in, I'm involved in, I'm involved in, I'm

involved in a, a YPO, um, group and a subset of the YPO group is a forum group. So you have,

you have a group of eight to 10 guys and girls, um, who were either, well, three categories,

either entrepreneurs, professional managers, or, or, um, you know, come from family businesses to

three. And generally, you know, you're in a subset of a forum, which, uh, the people in that group,

there's no conflict with what businesses they're running, obviously they can't happen,

but that's an interesting forum too, because you've got these guys who are largely

there, uh, the, the, the CEO of their companies, whether, you know, they're entrepreneurs,

professional managers, or, or family members, um, who are used to people just, you know,

um, just telling them what they want to hear. Um, that's a great organization, you know,

to have, uh, discussions with,

because, you know, you, you might, you might pose a, you know, an issue you've got,

and they, they don't puss you around, puss you around, they'll just tell you straight, well,

um, you know. It's uncommon for a lot of people who, you know,

got success and are CEOs. And, you know, when we, when we caught up, I spoke to you briefly about

that. And there, you know, as a crossover, the, the leadership space that we're in a business,

we started seven years ago, called a leader. We started, uh, in education, still do a lot of work

with teachers in education, but because of the range of leaders we speak to,

we, we've created a model very similar to that, where, whether it's someone from the world of

sport or industry or sport, getting together in those, you know, leader connect is the group that

we talk about. And we, you don't have to be the CEO, but you can be a change maker, but that

accountability of coming together and having people turn up and say, I'm here to challenge

your thinking and support your thinking in the right situation. It's a pretty powerful thing.

No, it is because people get, you know, it's very powerful because people aren't going to tell you

what you want to hear. People are going to tell you what they think.

And it can, at times it probably can be confronting. Well, it's not, it can be confronting,

but it shouldn't be because, um, everyone's there for the same purpose and giving feedback, giving,

not, it's not about giving advice. It's about questioning and questioning and questioning.

And you learn that way, don't you? Yeah. You create that culture of wanting to constantly

learn and constantly get better. And we're really passionate about that. We think it's such a,

um, you know, YPO has been an incredible institution for 50 years and 30,000 members and

people like you have, uh,

contributed and benefited greatly. And we see there's a real opportunity to,

to extend that out, you know, further. So, um, I appreciate you sharing that with us,

but asking these two final questions, God, uh, of everyone I've sat down with who's been the

greatest leader in your life. Oh, goodness. Um, greatest leader. Um, what that in what respect

it could be anywhere. Some people go to a, to, to someone close to family or some people,

um,

uh, might be that they studied, um, Churchill or they were obsessed with Mandela or, you know,

there's a range of answers, you know, so it's, it's unique to, to everyone.

Uh, that's a good question. Um, I hadn't really thought too much about it. So he's putting a bit

on the spot here, but for me, I think it would be a range of, a range of people. Um, it's, it's

people,

um, who a lot of, some of it's come out of the YPA forum type groups. It's people that,

um, I respect that have different points of view. Um, uh, my, my father-in-law, he, he was in,

in business and I respected the way he operated and that he was able to develop a very successful

business.

um not by being by being compassionate by doing the right thing by people not being an arsehole

um just trying to be look at look at uh always look at things from the other side other person's

point of view um showing empathy um uh there was a guy i when i was in before i started my business

i was in uh in in uh i worked for an advertising agency one of our accounts was mask infectionary

so there's a guy at mask infectionary guy called glenn barnes who i had an enormous amount of

respect for and um the principles in business and the way you approach things and his discipline and

um was was phenomenal um so it's probably not one person um um you know i like to listen to

you know this the the you know like i've read some of the books like the

simon senex um

where you know i wouldn't say i mean he's just got this ability to codify what great leaders do

and say so it's not him personally but he's able to put a complexion on on how the you know great

leaders think you know him and along with him and you know the good to great guy i mean

you know they're they're fascinating people they're not necessarily leaders in themselves

but their whole life is about it's about um learning from leaders and

codifying what the leaders have to say i mean that's really quite powerful i i'd like to listen

to that um and you know funnily enough uh well i shouldn't say funnily enough um you know as a

sounding board my wife um she's not you know she's my wife my partner best friend lover but

she's also a smart smart woman who um you know but virtually everything i do i have a you know

speak to her you know good just get a sounding board tells me when she thinks it's shit and not

um how many years married 30 38 38 you're gonna get in trouble here no 80 84 what's that uh

some quick 38 years yeah 38 years and i love the um you know i know you you thought about it but

a lot of people do that as an example and say you know i i have learned from you know books like

good to great i've learned from people you know

many years ago and then on the home front you see great great leadership and um no it's a it's

a fascinating answer final question is around we're a bit obsessed with collaboration and this

world of collaboration is is is what we talk about at a leader and inspiring connections

you know you've had the you've collaborated with great people when you've got connections

around the world have you ever thought geez if i could collaborate with one person on any project

there's someone that springs to mind oh good that's a good question um

uh that's a good question um

that's a very good question clever on any project uh

i can't look uh luke i i i off the top of my head i i can't think of any um i'm sure there is if i

go you know if i i'll probably walk out of this uh we'll walk out of this room and think oh shit

you know of course there's such and such and such and such um uh you know there's people i mean

there's there's lots of people i'd certainly uh you know i'd like to sit around and talk to them

at a dinner table with with certain people i mean uh obviously the the ones we all know and hear

about the yellow must of this world i don't know you know i'd love to know how his mind sort of

operates i'm not sure collaboration is the right word but um his name comes up a lot in this answer

people are fascinated by who've done what you've done and you know clearly you know people you

know to break through you know the electric car world against all the big car manufacturers and

to launch right take on nasa and but you know there's clearly some you know

part of that brain that's people are fascinated by aren't they yeah i mean it is just enormous i

mean obviously uh i mean it's all the big business leaders i mean i mean i'd love to sit down and

have a chat with um phil knight i mean he's a guy that uh you know he's he started night he founded

night yeah i mean you know he's still alive it's a it's a it's the greatest bloody uh sporting

um business ever and he did it in a lifetime

i mean he'd be fascinating to uh collaborate with you've read his book

i have yeah shoe dog isn't it yeah if you haven't that's a brilliant book to read yeah so i mean

he's he's uh you know for him to do that in his lifetime to create such a business i think it's

got a market cap of hundreds of billions anyway i mean it's just extraordinary um

and you know the thing about the thing about nike is i guess i guess he's one i really would like

to sit down with because no matter how big they get

never get complacent i mean most big companies like that like in the adidas and the pumas and

in the sporting area and even um in other apparel businesses when they get at some stage they seem

to get complacent nike never get complacent i mean even a small company like us and we were

when we had two times you we're on their radar they knew about us because we we you know when

we're hiring people are they oh they know about you yeah yeah we we look at your product we look

what you're doing

like we're a minnow we're tiny so here's a company that just

is it's just a phenomenal business and they don't get complacent um and i just think that's

amazing i think it's wonderful i mean i think it's what's clearly it's clearly uh it's done

them well hasn't it yeah he started importing you know japanese sneakers went out of business a

couple of many times before uh nike became uh became the story yeah quite i've been fascinated

you know i love listening to you your wisdom and your life story and there's so much to take away

i've been writing notes as i as i often do and i've been really generous enough to take some time

today i really appreciate it thanks so much pleasure thanks that's great fun no worries

empowering leaders was presented by me luke darcy produced by ed gooden

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