This stranger took me inside and put me on her lap and said,
you've got to pray for him and get better.
So I started praying as hard as I could.
Anyway, of course, later that day, he passed away.
By the time I was 12 or 13, I developed OCD.
And it got to the point, particularly in my teenage years,
it was getting close to non-functional.
Chris Walker, one of Australia's leading television producers,
is this week's guest on the Empowering Leaders podcast.
You hear Chris talk about imposter syndrome,
sometimes getting a bad rap,
and how it has driven him to the success that he's had.
No, I think he gets a bad rap, imposter syndrome.
I mean, it's not great for your mental health,
but it keeps you pretty sharp.
The challenge of his high-profile public divorce from Carrie Bickmore
and why separating is still a nuclear event.
I think people give up far too easily.
You know, it was saying goodbye to the kids twice a week,
and I still find that enormously challenging.
I would never say that I'm a gun producer,
but when it comes to being a dad, I was just sort of born for it.
And I want to be around them all the time.
And the real story behind accidentally leaving the camera on the laptop
and having him beamed back into the control room at the ABC
naked on his way into the shower.
It was a very interesting example of journalism
because they printed this article.
Two days later, I got a message from the journalist saying,
do you want to tell us what happened?
We've genuinely loved Chris Walker collaborating with us
in our Elita Connect program.
We curate groups of five to six people from around the globe
to come together to learn,
share and collaborate.
Chris shares openly how powerful Elita Connect has been for him
at a challenging stage in his life.
Head to elitacollective.com.
We would love to chat to you.
Book a discovery call today.
Big thanks as always to Jason Nicholas and his team from Temper Bedding.
The best mattress in the world.
We know great leaders like Chris Walker who have successful lives,
all value sleep and investing in a mattress like Temper
is a decision you won't regret.
Chris Walker is one of the most naturally curious,
people you'll ever meet.
A superpower that has made him one of Australia's
most successful television producers.
He rose rapidly through the ranks on Channel 10's The Project
and led the Logie and Walkley award-winning team
as managing editor for a number of years
before he moved on to become the co-creator
and executive producer of The Weekly with Charlie Pickering,
Hard Quiz and Tomorrow Tonight.
Chris is an acclaimed and incredibly well-respected leader in his field.
We're very privileged to have him as part of our Elita Connect program.
Thanks for joining me today, mate.
Great to see you.
Love the group, love the podcast.
Well, to be creatively successful on a consistent basis,
I'm in awe of that.
As I said, the TV shows are in different areas
and to be able to do that as you have done,
what's been the key to that success?
Probably imposter syndrome.
No, I think it's a bad rap, imposter syndrome.
I mean, it's probably not great for your mental health,
but it keeps you pretty sharp, imposter syndrome.
Like, I feel like I was pretty lucky growing up.
You know, my dad was a doctor, mum was a nurse,
and I was sort of destined to become a lawyer or an engineer or a doctor,
and I decided that's just not for me.
And so me jumping ship into media was an interesting move
from my family's perspective.
And I just realized that in order to make something of it,
I just had to scrap the whole way.
And I feel like I started at the bottom as a runner,
working for overnights in radio and stuff,
and just scrapped my way and kept scrapping.
You know, I found my way, fortunately, to the project,
and that was sort of the formative job for me,
and then just sort of made my way up.
See, I've never heard anyone say that before,
imposter syndrome gets a bad rap.
We've all got it.
And let's be honest, all of us,
you step into something uncomfortable and you go,
am I meant to be here?
Am I good enough?
That happens daily.
But you think there's something good in that edge, do you?
Look, I don't think it's good for you.
What you said is right.
Like, we all have it.
It's interesting.
Like, when people ask me what I do for a living,
when you, like, if you, Dar, say, what are you,
and I say, I'm a TV producer,
I say it with, like, a certain level of embarrassment,
because I feel like it's not all that I am.
And I also, I don't really like talking about my job that much,
because I hate the idea of staying in your lane.
But I find, as soon as you, particularly in a creative field,
if you try and move lanes, you're quickly told by people,
oh, you're not good at that.
That's not going to be your thing.
And that happened to me.
And that happened to me a lot as I moved through media.
And I sort of just decided early on that I'm going to try
and prove everybody, every boss that I've ever had wrong.
And I, obviously now I am the boss,
and I kind of see myself as a negation of all of the bosses
that I've had before me.
And most of them, I thought, were reasonably difficult people.
I've set up a company with Charlie Pickering.
And I think our culture is one that's built around everything
that I didn't like about the media industry.
And it's something that, you know,
we try and serve our employees with like empathy and affection
and creative freedom,
which is not something that I found a lot of in the media industry growing up.
It's interesting, isn't it?
There's a generation of AFL coaches,
the world that I came from that grew up and literally, you know,
Paul Ruse talks about this.
He wrote down, these are the 20 insane things that coaches do.
And if I ever get that job, I'm going to keep it in my top drawer
and I'm going to open it once a month, I think he said.
I'm just going to read them and make sure I don't ever morph back into that.
And, you know, the old school coaches were brutal, you know,
and hierarchical and there was no connection or collaboration.
And you've got this generation of coaches now that are all the things
you're talking about.
Do you think that's part of you?
You lead teams of up to 80 now and you get to create your own culture.
Is that what's driven you?
So when we started our own company, that was my first thing was what's our culture?
What are we going to be?
What are we going to be about?
Like making TV shows is really hard and the chances of them succeeding is very low.
So I thought, okay, we'll take care of the TV show at some point.
But first of all, what we need to do is establish a culture where people want to work.
So I spent quite a lot of time writing documents and, and talking
to the staff that we're going to, we're going to come on.
And exactly what you just said, Paul, that's a really good example where
I just decided these are all the things I'm not going to do.
I'm not going to make it a fear culture.
I'm not going to make it a competitive culture.
We're going to try and give people creative freedom.
And I have to say, I wasn't good at it to begin with, like, because you're
also like, you're so anxious about like, if this show doesn't work, your income
goes to nought, it's reputationally problematic, you know, when the first
show that we did for our company was the weekly with Charlie Picker.
And the ABC, it was a big deal for him.
He'd just come off the project.
If that fails, it's not great for him.
So we were under the, you know, under a fair bit of scrutiny, particularly
back then when people were watching TV, but it was important to me that
the people that came on felt heard and felt like they were part of the process.
Before I came onto this podcast, I was talking about it with Charlie.
And I think the thing that we made a big deal of was not telling
people how we're doing something.
We're telling them why as well.
And I think that made a big difference.
Well, I've got so much respect for Hamish and Andy and Chris in the same way.
Maybe that's what's happening, isn't it?
And I think they sat down and I've spoken to Andy before about this around,
there's crazy stuff that goes on in this world.
How about we not be like that?
And how about we look after people and, and, and not ever do anything mean-spirited.
Uh, and you've never seen those guys full of humour, full of creative brilliance,
but never at the expense of anyone else.
No, very gentle, good humour.
And, and always done the right thing.
And then they've spawned a generation of people that work with them.
They've gone on to great success.
One of the great stories, whereas you globally look at, uh, media, and it's a
bit of a fascination of mine as someone who played professional sport, came into
radio and TV by accident, really.
And, and just couldn't believe us.
If you go globally, you think of Roger Ailes at Fox news, one of the most
powerful, uh, media organisations in the world and a horrific, absolute animal.
Harvey Weinstein's in that, another absolute animal.
And I couldn't believe when I came out of team sport.
And, uh, into media and just the language people spoke, the way they treated each
So this is bizarre.
Have you got a thought on why, you know, management in media has been that way?
I think one of the things that historically about media has been that people want to be
People are desperate.
It's maybe less so now with social media, but certainly back when you and I were pups,
people were desperate for not just their 15 minutes of fame, but just to be around
And so I think people.
People are willing to do a lot to get, to be part of the industry, which gives very
mediocre white men often opportunity to exploit people.
It's probably also, I mean, this might be doing people an injustice, but I wonder whether
or not also it's an industry that, that sort of attracts various eccentricities.
I mean, you would know from your experience.
You would know from your experience as well, that when you're in, especially, you know,
many years ago, but still, it's obviously still going on today because it's in the papers
all the time, is that all the excuses that are made for people and all of the, the fawning
that goes around, particularly people that are on screen and stuff, they're given a lot
Like I remember there's a few, like a few stories.
Like my first job was on a show called Deal and O'Deal with Andrew O'Keefe, um, who's
obviously, you know, it's quite a sad story.
Had some serious personal issues, which.
They were pretty prevalent.
I was a kid, like I was 25 or something, 20, and he was the host and he was a freak of
Like he was, he was probably the, like one of the smartest people I've ever come across
and he was the most naturally, he could ad lib like no one I've ever, ever worked with
again, but clearly was very troubled and, but everyone just tiptoed around the obvious.
Everyone was tiptoeing around the drug use.
It was, you know, I was destined to go bad, but it was my, you know, it was my first job
and I was like, oh, okay, so this is how this works.
When we were doing the project, um, this is a slightly different story, but I'll, I'll
tell it anyway, but it does show the sort of the blind spots I think that happen in
So you remember the, I mean, you'll remember the story, but just for the purpose of the
listeners, the St. Kilda school girl who was, um, a young girl who sort of got herself into
There's a video with Ricky Nixon.
Um, snorting cocaine and not a good story.
And I was working at the project at the time I was what the series producers, I was second
in charge and we got her to come in to do an interview and she came in, she did the
There was the full panel.
It was, it was prerecorded and it was, um, the panel was Steve Isaac, Charlie, Husey
And Charlie had very serious misapprehensions about it.
I was young and ambitious and thought at the time it was okay.
She turned up without any adult and I didn't know that at the time cause I was in the control
room, but she then came up and did the interview, told, told the story.
We finished the interview and the cameras were still obvious.
Obviously on, but she, the interview had effectively finished and she said, everything
I just said there was a lie.
And Husey was like, yeah, that was pretty obvious.
So we then had this big like war game in the green room about, cause the show hadn't started
It was still a prerecord and Charlie was just like, oh, that should, we just can't
This is just not cool.
And he was in the descent.
As it turned out.
And we ended up putting the whole thing to air plus the bit where she said she lied.
And I have looked back on that now and thought that was a mistake.
She was 17 years old.
Should we should have been adults?
I really regret it.
I've learned from it.
Made sure I'd never do something like that again.
It's, it's interesting.
And as you say that the, the race is on every week, try and get a story.
That was a massive story.
And so you understand the medium, isn't it?
I think very few people self-reflect.
Very few people have a conscience in that space.
And, and I think that's probably the, the dark side.
I've always wrestled with that.
There's a body count, isn't it?
Like that for, is not a great day for a 17 year old girl, however you put it.
And, you know, I appreciate that you're someone that's got that ability.
So I really regret that.
Had my time again and probably the person that you are on the back of it.
But you said staying in your channels.
I think the beauty of creative people like you is that you can change channels all the
We, on the way in, we're talking about you've back from Columbia, your great
mate, Chris Brown, Mick Malloy, a mate of mine that I worked with for eight years.
There's a lot of fun too in this game, isn't there?
To change gears slightly.
Now, I don't know the background of the story, but Malloy in Columbia, Chris Brown,
production crew with you.
I don't even know what the story is, but sign me up.
What could possibly go wrong to borrow one of Mick's lines is how I feel about that.
Tell me about what's going on over there.
So we're making a TV show with Chris Brown.
I won't give the whole thing away.
But I mean, Mick's obviously talked about it.
But part of the premise is taking a celebrity overseas to work on animals.
And we took Mick, of all places, to Columbia because he's obsessed with the cocaine hippos,
which are Pablo Escobar's hippos that he brought over to Columbia in the 80s that have since
And anyway, we took him around Columbia.
That is a great story, by the way, isn't it?
Incredible story.
Literally, Pablo Escobar had a menagerie of African wild animals.
Including three hippos.
The environmental landscape of part of Columbia.
But they're also a tourist attraction.
So we actually, it's actually quite an incredible story.
But yeah, I mean, look, Columbia with Mick Malloy is a new experience.
It was, I'll tell you one story.
So the shoot was hard.
You're shooting in the Colombian jungle.
At nighttime, of course, we'd knock off.
Mick wants to have a couple of beers.
We know to enjoy a cold beer on a warm day.
And so I took it upon myself.
I took it upon myself to be the wingman.
So we're going to have a few beers.
And I was also concurrently dealing with my separation, which you can imagine was both
emotionally and just very taxing.
The shoot was enormously difficult.
It was also the first episode.
And anyway, it got to the point where we were trying to fly home.
We missed our connection.
And I ended up, we ended up in Lima.
We managed to get a flight home for Mick, but they, but the, we couldn't get a flight
So I was going to have to stay in Lima for two days, which I thought was just not going
So I ended up, ended up finding a ticket.
But then when we arrived at the, at the airport after this incredibly taxing 10 days, I got
bitten by someone else's emotional support dog, which broke skin.
So I got Chris Brown, the vet on the phone going, am I going to have rabies?
And, but Mick just, he just thought it was the best.
Like, you know, after the week you've had, what, what, how, it could not be more emblematic
of the week you've had than being bitten by someone else's emotional support dog.
I've had the pleasure of traveling with Malloy on a number of occasions and it is never boring.
There's a, there's always something going on.
It is the beauty of the creativity that you can go and shoot that story and, and bring
That's, that's the genius of the medium that you guys are in and to take it into different
As you said, you're a producer now looking after 80, 80 people at a time and in various
shoots and taking this to a different direction as well.
I understand losing your brother at a young age, Chris, profound effect as, as it would.
And that's sort of been the guiding principle for you and how you try and run your teams.
Can you share a bit of that, that story as well?
I would argue that a good friend of mine, ABC journalist, Annabelle Crabb, actually,
I texted her and said, you know, we,
we did a show together and, and, and I said to her, you know, I, to, to, you know, I like
It's part of the reason I did your, your, um, a leader group was, you know, I haven't
had a boss for so long.
I was like, I need feedback.
And so I said, Annabelle, you know, how do you see me as a leader or how do you see me
as, as an executive producer?
Or, and she said, um, that she, she once wrote this book and in the book they interviewed
30 women CEOs and almost to a man slash woman, the men had grown up in very stable, well
to do, had, you know, I was going to say easy lives, but, but, but standardized where, you
know, marriages worked and they'd given all of the opportunities.
Whereas the women had all suffered almost according to this study that, that all suffered
fairly substantial trauma.
Annabelle said to me, I think it's the, I think it's the trauma.
It's the trauma in your past that has given you the attributes that she personally, that
she likes about working with me.
The story is that, um, when I was nine years old, um, my brother, uh, who was 13, Adam,
he, he was also my, my hero.
He, we were playing cricket in the back, in the driveway at our family home with my cousin
And, um, it's difficult to fully like remember.
Cause you, your brain tends to, you know, the trauma of the incident sort of corrupts
the brain's memory.
But, so I can't remember exactly who bowled the ball, but my cousin hit it and the ball
rolled under the gate across the road, which we lived on a main road and Adam was the only
one who was allowed to cross the road.
So, and of course he went out and I followed him out cause you know, that's what I did.
I just was like a puppy dog.
Like I was whatever he did.
I wanted to be around.
And we got to the other side and, um, he sort of, he collected the ball and then he set
to come back across the road.
And I was like, it was, it was weird.
Cause I was like this split second where I thought, Oh, I'm sure he's okay.
And it was just like a sickening thud.
And he, you know, went sort of flying and, um, and I ran up the driveway screaming that
he's, you know, he's dead.
And, um, got my mom and she obviously ran and that's probably, I then went across the
road with mom, even though I wasn't supposed to and saw him and he was like in really bad
shape and mom seeing mom desperately calling for an ambulance was, was almost as bad.
Um, shocking as, as gruesome as the accident was, et cetera.
Um, so I sort of collapsed and then I, then a couple of things happened in a, in the next
few hours that I think had a profound effect on my psyche going forward.
One of them was that, um, they took me inside.
And this, this stranger took me inside and put me on a lap and said, um, you've got to
pray for him, keep praying for him.
And if you pray for him, he'll get better.
And I'm like, so of course I was nine years old and the world's, you know, God's in the
sky and that sort of stuff.
And so I started praying and hard as I could.
And then the police arrived and said, Oh, did anyone see it?
And I said, and I went to them and I said, yeah.
And then I said, Oh, is he?
Is he getting better?
Is he getting better?
And one of the cops, I think just out of, you know, kindness, I guess said, yeah, I
think he's getting better.
So I thought, um, I'm having an impact on my, you know, and anyway, of course, um, later
that day he passed away.
Well, I'm not sure exactly what part of the day he died, but he died that day.
And then, um, anyway, and then in the, in the sort of the, the year.
This is the, that followed as a girl, I developed, um, by the time I was 12 or 13, I developed
I've always thought it was a bug, like a bug in my mind.
Um, and you've got, you know, it got really full on, um, obsessive, compulsive,
disordered show up for you.
It was in lots of different, different ways, but it was very religious based because
I think part, part of the, you know, the idea that I could have prayed him better.
So even though I'm not religious, my mum was sort of quasi-religious.
I would go to church and stuff.
And so occasionally, and so it would show up in like lots of repetition in my head,
lots of counting.
Um, and, uh, is anything sort of sacrilegious or blasphemous was very problematic and any
sort of negative thoughts were really problematic.
So you get these very intrusive thoughts and then you've got to try and, you know,
you've got to try and ameliorate them with compulsions.
And it got to the point, particularly my teenage years, where it was pretty, it was, it was
getting close to non-functional.
Um, and then I was lucky enough to get, I had, you know, I had, we had the means to
get help, you know, and I was very lucky.
I had a psychiatrist who I saw for 30 years who sadly died last year.
He was probably the person who knew me best in the world.
He died last year of pancreatic cancer.
And, um, but it wasn't until the age of 35 that I really got on, on top of it.
And that was by doing a thing called exposure therapy, which is for anyone who's got OCD
will know how difficult that is.
But it was, um, yeah, it was, and it's one of those things that you live with in silence,
particularly back in those days, because no one really knew what it was.
I mean, I lived in a medical family and even, you know, my parents, I think would, would,
would agree, you know, we weren't particularly literate in, in the whole thing, but you certainly
didn't tell your friends.
Your friends, your teachers, you know, I remember, you know, it trying to play sport, you know,
crippled by, you know, I was, I was quite good at basketball, but you know, there'd
be days where, you know, you could barely get on the court cause you're tying your shoes
400 times and you know, like, so it was really difficult.
I'd always seen it as a bug and, but I think the truth, what the truth is, and I've discovered
this over in the last two years whilst going through another crisis that I think it was
largely around a fear of loss.
Like in a very, very severe fear of loss, like, you know, almost morbid fear of loss.
Um, and I think that's probably also, I hate the idea of, you know, how they talk about
like the, you know, they talk about it with Robin Williams a lot.
It's like the crazy genius or the, the, the unwell genius, like that there's some sort
of gift in, you know, I was reading about, I was reading about Anthony Hopkins the other
day who was talking about his, he's got asperger's.
And he was saying that he feels like that's a gift.
I've never, I've never felt that.
Like, I never felt like any condition like that is helpful or useful, but, um, I do think
that like fear of loss has probably driven a lot of my success.
It's a, thanks for sharing that incredibly personal story.
And it's like, you can almost see the video in your mind, can't you?
It's literally the worst nightmare and everyone who's got kids, it's, yeah, you know, I live
on a road, you know, and I still, you know, when cars sort of speed down our road, I look
at them, it's like, God, there's so many kids step across that road onto an oval 10
And so that fear's there at a level for all of us, isn't it?
When you've had to live that with your brother, not surprising that that has taken over your
psychology and, and, um, to be able to, as you said, find a way through it without being
able to talk about it back in that era.
It's incredible really that you're able to get that.
You know, you literally had a psychologist for 30 years to.
So he was a psychiatrist.
So they, I was going to say they make you, but they, they.
They give you, you know, when something as tragic as that happens, my parents went and
saw him and they, they said, oh, he could, you know, Chris could go and see him as well.
And so I was 10 when I started seeing him or I could have even been nine, but, and,
um, I saw him for off and on, like there were, there were periods where I didn't, but, you
know, for 30 years, you know, he even, um, saw me and Carrie occasionally together.
Interestingly, like I said, he died last year.
But two months before he died, I'd been messaging him all year.
I couldn't get onto him cause you know, he was sick and, but eventually he responded
to me and he, um, we went and had a coffee.
It was a three hour coffee and he let me record it.
And it was, he was no longer my doctor.
He no longer, there was no patient doctor, you know, like confidentiality.
It was any, just the gloves were off and it's probably my most cherished bit of audio because
he just laid out my life for me and I listened to it now and now and again, just to, just
to give me a hand when it, when it's hard, but he was, he was an incredible, incredible
He's one of those people in life that you feel like, I don't know if you have them,
but you know, there's a handful of people that you feel like almost sort of kind of
save you, you know, in life that, and he was one of them.
What a gift, isn't it?
To get someone like that and for him to have the presence to understand that this was something
you probably needed going forward is a, is an incredible story.
So yeah, you have referenced, um, you know,
recent, uh, trauma of, of separation and having seen so many close friends in recent
times, um, post COVID go through it.
I reckon it feels like you're probably times it by a hundred in the public sphere and having
to do that publicly.
I can't imagine high profile partner and carry a bit more.
How, how hard has that been for you?
Um, yeah, it was been, it was, we were together for 13 years.
Built a family together.
Um, you know, it's what I thought out, you know, life would be, and life had a different
And I've always wanted to be like, I've always wanted to, I think, you know, like, not that
I want to draw everything back to my past, but I think having your family so badly disrupted
as a child meant that I really wanted to have a family, you know, and I feel like, you know,
the fact that that got broken up, I found really challenging, really difficult.
Initially, the media part of it wasn't a big deal for me.
Like it just, I just, it was so far down the list of, of, you know, it was saying goodbye
to the kids, you know, twice a week.
And still, I still find that just enormously challenging.
You know, I just, I had always assumed I'd be around them a hundred percent of the time.
And it's, it's the one thing in life that I'm happy to be super confident, borderline
hubristic about, about saying is that I'm a really good dad.
Like I would never, I would never say that I'm a, you know, a gun producer or, you know,
I just, but when it comes to being a dad, I was just sort of born for it and I love it
and I want to be around them all the time.
So that, I find that really difficult.
The media scrutiny was tough because I just,
there's so much bullshit like written about and I, uh, you and I, you and I, you know,
we're sort of recent friends, but we both share a hatred of injustice.
And I think that like when you read stuff about yourself, even though I've been adjacent
to famous people for my entire career or, or high profile people, and obviously I lived
with, I lived with one, um, it's different when it's about you and it's like, but you
know, I mean that part of it has kind of.
Have said has settled down now, but like divorce is genuinely, I think underrated as
a difficult event.
Like I think because it's so prevalent, I think it's way too prevalent personally.
Like I think people give up far too easily.
And I think in our current culture, it's going to happen possibly more because I, you know,
as you would know, love's not just about a feeling.
It's a, you know, it's obviously a commitment and it's difficult at times, but it's, it's
It's incredibly rewarding.
It's a, it's a, it's a nuclear thing, isn't it?
You're talking about how underrated and I can't walk in your shoes at all.
I wouldn't pretend to, but you know, a lot of the close people around me, as you said,
because it happens every other week, we assume it's just, but you're right.
The, the, it's nuclear, isn't it?
It's, as you said, it's not being around your kids every day.
It's separating your assets.
It's changing your finances.
It's friendship groups change immediately.
People take sides.
Some people invent things and, and, and then you're trying to do that and be a great parent
at the same time.
Like it's, it's massive, isn't it?
And then I, as I said, the layer of then having people from the outside publicly say things
that are untrue, I just, it's a huge event that you had, you know.
So you, because it happens so often, I think people sort of, they move on from it quickly.
And that's the other difficult thing about grief is that people only have about, I mean,
I've got some incredible friends that have.
That have helped me through, you know, the rougher times in my life.
And it's, you know, who would die for me and I'd die for them, but they, people have to
move on, you know, like people have to get on with their own lives.
But the thing is, you know, grief can last a long time.
And, and I think men struggle probably, you know, they say that 95% of like the suicide
risk after divorce is men.
Um, I think women are the strongest sex as it turns out.
And, and, you know, I think there's, it's a, it's a, you know, it is a really difficult
It's for everyone involved.
It's difficult for the kids, difficult for families.
Like you said, you know, everyone who goes through divorce, I think loses friends, which
for someone who hates loss, um, I felt, you know, I found really difficult.
At the time, uh, we were really, you know, privileged and catching up with you and clearly
going through some challenges and, and you jumped headlong into this thing we call Leader
And it's what we love.
We talk about inspiring connections and suddenly a random group of people are showing up and,
and, and you being as open and honest as you are.
I know the group loved you.
Nick Natanui is a really special, uh, person from an AFL point of view.
John Pigeon from doing great things in the property world.
Alex Baker, love out loud.
Um, Ashani's an incredible person and, uh, and Hamish, um, Happy Apple as well.
It's a diverse group of people.
Can you tell us about what was a pretty vulnerable time in your life?
What, what did it mean to you?
I mean, I haven't actually told you this, I don't think, but it meant more than I think
even the group realized.
We did this exercise.
I think you might've even been there when we did the exercise, but we, where we all
talked about each other.
And I mean, those people who I'd, I've still not met them.
I think I met Ashani in person, but I haven't met them physically in person and we would
meet every week or every second week.
And these people are, you know, they're incredibly successful people, but they were just like,
there'd be times that I'd be in the group, you know, in tears and these people were so
It helped me like, so Nick Natanui said this thing at the end, he goes, I don't know how
to say this without sounding like a wanker, but he, it was quite, it's quite confronting
particularly for an Australian, you know, Australians, we don't like, you know, they
were sort of talking about you and, and, and Nick said something like, ah, walks, he calls
me and he said, um, you know, I feel like you're just like Batman.
Like you're just sitting in the, I mean, I think he probably meant Robin, but he was
like, you know, you'd see in the background getting things done for people and, and trying
to make other people shine.
And, you know, produce other people and, and make other people better all the time.
And, and like, I've really hung on to it.
Like I've really hung on to the fact that Nick Natanui, who used to belt up on the tags
all the time, like, um, you know, someone I admired had thought to say that about me
and, and, you know, it's, yeah, I found it like, I don't know how I don't want to say
life-saving, but it just, it was, I found it like there was times when I didn't want
to go onto the call, but cause I was like, I don't want to be.
I don't want to be on the call and being, ah, shit, my life's fucked.
Like, but every time I went on it, I felt better and, you know, I can't wait to meet
them all in person.
I actually, and I'm incredibly grateful to you for, you know, I think it was our mate
Chris Brown that, that told me about it and I caught up with you and had I not, I would
obviously not have done it.
Um, but as soon as I met you and realized what you were about, I was like, all right,
I've got to get some of that.
Um, yeah, it's been, it was a really important part of it for part of my journey.
I did have the pleasure of jumping in on that, on that call.
And I remember going around the group and what Nick said to you, it was really powerful
what the other said to you as well.
And I think he said something else, which made me laugh too.
He said, I can't, I've spent my life turning up on screen, sitting up and making sure I
He said, you look like an unmade bedwalk, but you don't care.
And he said, I love it, you know?
And, and he, they spoke about the honesty and how you just, it pours out of you, which
is a great credit to you.
And I, I think you can, people will hear that in this, in this conversation, but this feels
a bit like this is your life, mate.
And I, part of what I love this forum is because I spent the last few days reading as much
I know you're well, I know you walk, you work really well, but the things that happen in
life and sometimes, you know, I've always had this thing, if you're in media and something
happens to you, at some point, you're probably going to have to talk about it.
There was a famous moment in lockdown.
And I think all of us probably.
We're, you know, a millimeter away from one of these, where we spent our life on Zoom
and did we turn the camera off and jump in the shower?
Now, I haven't heard you talk about this.
Are you up for telling the story?
Because this one got a bit of traction that you signed off from a Zoom, this is how I
You went in the shower, the camera's still rolling, could happen to anyone, but half
your work colleagues get to see the full frontal of Chris Walker.
How was that one?
What do you think happened, having read the paper?
Well, just that, you know, I could picture that.
It was, we were on the, every hour, I was doing breakfast radio on Zoom and you, and
you just think immediately afterwards, you go on to your next thing.
And often that would be to jump in the shower or the camera could be rolling or anything.
And I thought, shit, that could have easily been me.
I just saw a bit of humor in it.
Not that sort of, and like most people would ask you about like, well, turn your camera
That's how I read it.
I think that's probably what it should have been.
I mean, like, so the story was that we were in, we were in, um,
we were on a family four month holiday, but the kids were going to school over in London.
It was like a big family trip that we'd always wanted to do.
And, but we were still working.
So, um, Carrie was doing radio.
Um, so she'd leave the apartment at, at like four 30 in the morning.
And on Tuesday mornings, I had to, um, produce the weekly.
And, uh, so I had to, you know, the infrastructure set up in, in our bedroom so that I could,
um, talk to the control room and as you know, like in London, that everything's tiny, like,
you know, the bathroom is basically on your, you know, in your bedroom and your bedroom
is basically in your kitchen.
And we have three children and the nanny had decided to not turn up.
So I had to scramble for another nanny.
She decided to have that not on the Monday.
So, and she just, that was the end of her.
And so we, I had to scramble for a new nanny.
And of course on this particular day, so I was up at four 30.
At five o'clock we did rehearsal.
And so the way they had it, they had me on a zoom just in the control room.
And so that I could talk to Charlie and I could talk to the, um, the guys in the control
room, the producers and the directors and stuff.
Amazing technology, by the way.
From a London hotel room, you can be in the control room and run your show.
And it was, it was all, and it's, you know, COVID gave us that, you know, like that opportunity.
And so anyway, so then of course this new nanny was late, um, and the kids decided to
It was four o'clock.
That's a bit going on.
I had the, the, the, she was three at the time, you know, she was crying and, and Evie didn't
want to go to school.
I laugh because we've been there.
Everyone has, we've had kids and the scrambles on and it's, uh, and you're just under the
And so, you know, rehearsal finished.
So I, you know, I, and I was wearing my, you know, my Richmond jammies and, um, and I ran
The kitchen, butter the toast and, you know, it was all a big scramble.
And then I just went back into the bedroom to have a shower, took my things off and then
realized the zoom was still up.
So you realized, did you?
Well, I heard some, I heard, I heard someone laughing.
And so I heard like on the comms, I, oh shit.
So you obviously got the camera if you're going to the shower to, to turn the screen
So I closed it and I closed the thing and then thought, ah, and then I thought my immediate
reaction was what you do.
Oh, like that's, it's embarrassing, but it's funny.
And I texted Carrie and Carrie was like, oh, you know, do you want to come on radio and
have a laugh about it?
And blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, oh, maybe not just cause you know, it's the ABC and like, you know, it's
a sensitive world.
And I'm the boss.
And so anyway, and so I thought nothing of it really.
Um, and we sort of continued, you know, holiday, but then someone inside the ABC leaked it
to the Herald Sun.
As is, and the Herald Sun then blew it up into a story, tried to make it sound worse than
it was the first line.
And it was, it was the, the ABC people had received counseling for it.
And I was like, God, my body must be pretty weird.
You like feedback, but that's a bit much, isn't it?
It's a bit rough.
Um, and so, um, anyway, and then it became.
And, you know, this story, and it was like really, um, incredible.
Like it was a very, uh, interesting example of journalism because they printed this article.
Two days later, I got a message from the journalist that printed the article saying, do you want
to tell us what happened?
You've just told everyone what you think happened.
And none of it was like the article was almost wrong in every sentence.
You know, like they said, it was up for two minutes.
And I'm like, well, if it was up for two minutes, why didn't they?
You should turn it off.
Like, like what's going on?
Like, it's like, it was, it was really unfortunate in the end.
Like it could have been, you know, it could have been, as you said, just one of those
things that was laughed off and it probably, you know, I wish it had been, to be honest.
But the people that texted me in support from back home, you know, like you mentioned
Andy Lee before, like he texted me going, mate, don't even worry about it.
Like it's, no one gives a fuck.
Which in the end is, is it, isn't it?
You know who your people are and the people in your corner.
I know you well, I know your values, but it's different when you're in the storm, isn't
And people are inventing things and you, I think one of the things I, you, I think you,
we share that sense of, I hate injustice.
I hate when, if you've done the right, you know, if whatever happened has happened and
And, and who cares really?
When people invent something else, I, I genuinely piques my interest.
And, you know, this whole generation now of kids who shared something on Snapchat and
a mate screenshots it and in the most treacherous act, you know, turns it into something that's
destroying teenagers at the moment.
And it just gets me that people have that mindset in our culture that I'm going to stitch
someone up actively.
There's a real cruelty in, I listened to the Omar Omar, Safari doctors.
Beautiful person.
And I'm just like, you know, there's that, like, there's that kind of person who's doing
what she's doing.
And then there's, there's people that are spending time trying to, you know, hurt other
And just, it just seems unnecessary.
And what, you know, I.
Like our TV show is a comedy show, right?
So we're like, we're throwing elbows at times at people, you know, particularly politicians,
but we, we have like very strict rules about who we will satire or who we will ridicule.
We've made mistakes.
Like, absolutely.
We've made mistakes.
And like, I've had to ring a couple of people and personally apologize.
Charlie has as well.
Like we've absolutely made, we own it when we do, you know, I think it's important to
Like, I think, I think we need satire and I think we need comedy.
We need to be able to take the piss out of each other.
We need a sense of humor is absolutely crucial.
I think for all industries, but obviously if you don't have in the, in the entertainment
industry, then what else you might as well get out.
That's the best of Australian culture to me is when your mates hang shit on you, it's
the best of footy.
It's the locker room of footy.
It's what I loved about doing footy media is trying to take some of that and really
aimed at each other.
But I use this term another day, but it's actually delivered with love.
Like having someone sitting alongside Mick Malloy for eight years and having him take the
piss out of some of the funniest stuff I've ever, because there's a friendship there and
you, and sometimes you push the line.
Occasionally you have to go, Hey Mick, that one might have landed a little bit far, but
if it's a mate, you can talk to him about it.
And that used to be, I reckon the way that we found balance in it all.
And you just put your hand up if you get one wrong, if you keep doing it, then there's
a, then there's a problem.
And I've always taken that, you know, Marcus Aurelius, I think they, I think they use it
in gladiator, but the real Marcus Aurelius said, you know, death smiles at us all.
All you can do is smile back.
And obviously I think he's talking genuine.
I think he's literally.
talking about death, but I always metaphorically think of that as when shit's going bad and
when it's, when you're in a crisis or when it's tough or when works hard or when the
show's not working, that's when you gotta be your funniest.
That's when you gotta be, have the best sense of humor.
And it's like, I was talking to Charlie just last night and I said, I'm going to go and
ask this podcast.
And I said, you know, if you ask me, you know, what is, what do you like working?
What is it about that you enjoy?
What is it about working so closely with me?
Cause we've been business partners now for nearly 15 years.
And he's like, it's that you're funny and fun.
And I think without it, we'd be off doing something else.
We're all in trouble.
If we lose that sense of humor, we're all in trouble.
I love the saying, and you would have heard me say it, success leaves clues.
And I'm going to ask you these questions because your story's amazing.
It's full of some hurdles, but you've overcome them in a great way.
And the idea of leading yourself first.
With self-leadership before you lead others, as you do, and I know you're really passionate
about looking after the people in your care and, and with empathy and you're really considerate
about that, but how do you go?
How do you lead yourself?
I don't reckon I've been good at it over the journey.
Like I don't reckon looking after myself has been a priority.
I reckon I've flogged myself.
I'm actually spending a lot of time at the moment trying to find, I did this thing recently
where I put a photo of myself as a five-year-old on my phone.
I'm 42 now and been through these various hurdles and, you know, I've, I've sort of
been doing the same job now for a while.
And I really, I really want to find myself again.
Like I want to, I want to learn what, what the essence of that kid was, because I've
always felt like there was a sliding doors moment in my life where I could have been
this one thing and the death of my brother meant that I.
And so I don't want that to define me.
And so I'm really at the moment trying to spend a lot of time finding what it is that
actually drives me, what it is that motivates me, what it is that, why is it that I like
entertaining people and why is it that I want to be the best at everything and what, what
is it like, what's behind it?
And like, I'm still searching for those, for those answers.
Some of them, I think, uh, that, you know, there are probably.
Gaps in my, in my makeup that I'm, you know, I'm trying to fill, um, with, be it with success
or, or validation or, you know, and some of it I think is that I enjoy what I do.
I love the creative process.
I'm good at it and it's good to be good at things.
Like it makes you feel good.
So did that answer your question?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I, I, it's, I've never had anyone answered in that way, but I, I can understand.
There isn't going back and having that picture of you and, you know, because every kid has
got that purity, haven't they?
You don't have all those layers.
They come later, don't they?
When life throws incredible challenges.
And everyone talks about, like, it's sort of become part of the common vernacular now
to talk about your inner child, which wasn't a thing that I ever thought about until a
But looking after the inner child in you, I think is important.
And I reckon, I think I've bullied myself a lot over the journey.
Like I think my, whatever it is.
Your super ego or your ear door, I forget which one it is, but the one that is rough
And I think the ego is probably the enemy to some degree.
You probably need a little bit of it just to keep going.
But, but on the whole, it probably just creates a lot of suffering because, you know, I think
you suffer more in your head than you do in reality.
But the thing that I'm terrible at and the thing that I'm going to like work on and I've
been working on since doing your, your thing and talking to a few other people is self-talk.
It's a, it's a, it's a great saying, isn't it?
You know, you would never let someone else.
Speak to you the way you speak to yourself.
Are you good at self-talk?
I work on it a lot.
I start the day and actually.
I put things in there that I want and actively do that every day.
And so, yeah, you're right.
You get the shower and the mind wanders off and yeah, we all get that frustration, imposter
syndrome, but I'm, I'm conscious around, this is who I want to be and this is how I want
And so I take some time to do that and try and do that as I get older as well.
It was easy when you had the ambition of.
Football or, um, those things are really clear.
I feel I've got to work a bit harder on that now, but, um, positively impacting others
in your environment.
I know that's something you think about a lot and from being around you, I can see you
care a lot about the people in your environment and you get hurt when something happens as
you, as you should.
What are some of the ways you've gone about that positive impact on others in the spaces
So the, I reckon the big one is, and I've got heaps better at this lately.
Like when we've reasonably young, when we started our company and, and.
But when we, over the last five or six years, it's changing the mindset of like, I don't
need to tell people how I want it to be.
I need to create a vision for what we think the show is and get everybody on board and
not just tell them that this is the way it's going to be, or this is how we're going to
do it, but this is why we're going to do it.
And I think everybody feels much more validated by that.
And when we did the Alita group, we actually do a survey of all the.
Of your staff and, and it came back, my results were good, but like in terms of leadership,
but that was the thing that we're confronting about it.
And, you know, I think just FaceTime with people as well, I think is so underrated now,
like because of, you know, how much time people are spending on screens or at home on their
own or whatever, but like we have a culture at our work, you know, like you said, there's
seven or 80 people when, when the shows are going full ball and I have complete faith
in every single one of the people.
Walks in and I tell them when I think that they're better at a job than me, um, because
I think, cause that's of course true.
They all have, you know, special skillsets, et cetera.
And, and we make sure that everybody gets to sort of feast in the success of, of the
So like when we're talking about like the weekly or hard quiz, you know, you know, Tom
Gleason's the host of hard quiz and Charlie's the host of the weekly, for example, but we
always talk in we, it's never.
I like, even though they're the stars, it's everyone's success.
It's if we win an award, it's everyone's award.
It sits in the office.
It's about the, the team atmosphere.
I mean, Charlie always says that I run the place like a footy team cause I sort of grew
up playing sport and that's my, you know, I love sport and I, and I think that, you
know, one of the things that sport does is why I love getting my kids involved in team
sport is that you rely on other people.
You owe them something.
You have to be there.
You have to turn up, you have to show up.
If you turn up and you're not prepared.
Then you're letting everyone down.
So that's kind of the culture that we have.
And, and we're very fortunate that every single person that turns up to our work is, is, is
It's a great, uh, analogy, isn't it?
And we see that a lot in, uh, in team environments that are clearly as consistently successful
The interesting visions and they take a fair bit of work.
You know, we mentioned earlier, and I think of pitching, you know, going to Columbia was,
uh, was, uh, with Chris and Mick.
And, and that, that that's a pretty big vision.
How do you go about selling those visions to, to your team and, and getting them to work?
They're all really individual, like the show, the ideas and the shows, that particular show,
the one you're talking about with Mick and Chris was a brainchild of Chris and I, there
was, it took us six years to get that up.
So you've got to persevere.
Like, you know, if you're going to get knocked over because someone says, no, you'll never
get anything up because they're always saying no, particularly now in, you know, the media
industry is shrinking.
I mean, you know, anyone under 30 barely plugs in free to air TV.
So just jump, that's a great story for people to listen to, you know, someone as bankable
Chris Brown is probably one of the most loved people in Australia.
The guy's six foot five, he's 11 out of 10, he loves kittens.
He's the nicest human being on top of all that.
He's incredibly smart.
It was like he was built by a computer.
He may be AI, he may have been the first creation that we ever worked on.
But the fact if, and you've got all that success, the fact that you guys take six years to get
a show together that, that I listened to and I go, I don't watch a lot of TV, that one
So, but you had to persevere.
I mean, the more incredible story is it took Hugh Jackman eight years to get the greatest
I mean, if Hugh Jackman turned up, you'd just be like, mate, whatever you want to do, just
roll it out, son.
But, um, yeah, like it, we were, we were more focused on the show than we were on the show.
We were fortunate with, with say like hard quiz, for example, like we'd done the weekly
Um, and we'd sort of got through the initial sort of like, whenever you launch a new show
in Australia in particular, you, you got to expect the, oh, it's shit ass.
Like it's, you know, you know, people hate anything new.
They don't really, people don't really love success much in Australia, I reckon.
And, um, but once we got over, like everyone telling us that it's a rip off of John Oliver
and, um, all the American shows.
Um, you know, and the, the first incarnation of the show had Kitty Flanagan, Tom Gleeson
and Charlie and, you know, Tom was on the rise and we thought, oh, we should have a
And, uh, we constructed hard quiz, um, which is obviously being a most successful show.
Um, and that one just came, it's just like in cricket, you know, like it just came off
Um, and so it was up really quickly.
All having said that, we ran it out in the first season for 10 episodes and they nearly
didn't recommission it.
And they were very, they were like, they were hung on, hung on, hung on.
And then they finally said, okay, we'll do another series.
And then obviously the rest is history.
And, you know, Tom's gone on to win gold Logies and the show's basically on all the time now.
But, um, yeah, you've really got to like persevere.
I mentioned in the intro.
That you're one of the most curious people I think I've, I've ever met.
It shows up every time you're around, you're constantly drilling into, to questions.
Uh, tell us about that curiosity and how it shows up for you.
I don't want to make everything about my dead brother.
I think the, I mean, the, the truth is, I think that, look, I mean, it could be obviously
just personality and genetics and that sort of stuff.
But I think I've spent a lot of energy trying to understand the world because I think when
something happens, that's that big an event, that big an event, your brain can't fathom it.
And, and it's so painful emotionally and so eviscerating that I think I probably just threw
everything upstairs and go, okay, how can I, how can I make sense of this?
How can this possibly be right?
And my dad told me this, I didn't know this, but he said on the day that my brother died,
he said, you spent the whole night to say it was Christmas Eve.
And so it was also the day that I found out that Santa wasn't real.
And so my parents brought up the Christmas presents and he just said, yo, you just kept
saying, why, why has this happened?
And so I think that the curiosity is probably my overall attempt that if I can, if I can
understand it intellectually, maybe it'll make it okay.
And there are some things in life as we all know.
That you can't make sense of and that you can't solve, but I suspect that's where the
curiosity comes from.
You know, I did a podcast.
I am genuinely like quite curious.
I did a podcast where I interviewed like two series, 12 people.
And I just love people.
Like I love hearing about them.
You know, I wish we were doing this in reverse, to be honest.
Like, yeah, um, I have to, I mean, do mom and dad ever get over that moment?
I mean, you can imagine it yourself.
Like I can imagine it too, obviously.
And I mean, they're two of the most extraordinary survivors.
And I've only like in the last two years even learned to respect and love them more, but
I don't think you ever get over.
I don't think you would ever get over the death of a child.
I think the idea of getting over stuff, it's actually probably most offensive.
It's also horseshit.
Like, I think you probably just move.
But I think you become a new person, you become a different person and I think you, you find,
you find ways to cope and you find, you know, some are good, some are bad.
You probably build character.
You get stronger.
It could all be things that you just tell yourself to make yourself feel better, but
they have gone on to be incredible grandparents.
They've lived remarkably because it's very rare.
Um, they've stayed together, um, after a tragedy, which, you know, they've been married for
50 years, you know, like, so.
Stats aren't great on that, are they?
You're against the odds.
You're in the communication, uh, business and we see leaders are really conscious around
how they communicate.
It's, it's one of your great skills.
How have you thought about that in, in, in your workplace and in your daily life?
Communicating like this, like in person is, I think, something that, that everyone should
be doing more of.
I'm apparently, I'm a terrible texter.
Like I just, I'm very blunt with my texts.
I don't like, I don't have flowery texts.
So I've got to learn to like be more, you know, put a bit more affection and, and, and
flower to the, to, to the communication.
But so for, for someone who, you know, I spent a lot of time obviously analyzing, like when
we're doing a TV show, how, how are we communicating this segment or this show of entertainment?
How we, what are we communicating?
What information do people need to make the joke?
What set up do they need to make the punchline work?
Analyzing that communication all the time and I think, but I think the area that one
of the things, particularly with the leader group that, that, you know, and we did, you
know, we did this facilitation with, um, with Marley, who was awesome, where she would take
you through how you would communicate with people in the workplace.
And it was very eye opening because there is, there is definitely better ways to do
And, um, you know, I think there was a difference between coaching and mentoring.
So I'm trying to learn now to like communicate better, just little things like using people's
Um, when you give feedback, give specific feedback, like the difference between going
good job DAS and saying DAS that, that segment that you wrote today, it's possibly the best
segment we'd put all year.
The difference in that individual, like they just, they're buzzing, they go home feeling
They come back to work going, they feel good about themselves.
So I think that sort of like specificity, I think is probably.
I think it's about having the time to use someone's name and say, Hey, we really love
If you more of that is brilliant for us.
And it's awesome.
So then when, you know, sometime later where you have to say, Hey, we, you know, we prefer
a bit more, it's an easier conversation.
People miss that day, because nine out of 10 times people were doing stuff really, really
But the only time they hear from you is when you're pissed off at something.
It just takes the ether out of the room.
I think you sum it up in a really important way.
I mean, you've, you're full of great collaborations.
Charlie Pickering's a genius.
And uh, you work with.
with Chris Brown and so many others.
How important has that been for you, the collaboration part?
The collaboration with?
Anyone and everyone, yeah.
I think it's the best part of work.
Like, I think it's, I genuinely love the people that I work with,
like both on screen and off screen.
There are some people off screen who are just as extraordinary
and geniuses in their own right that I admire and respect,
but I don't think it's true.
The idea of a self-made man or a self-made woman, I think, is horseshit.
Like, I think it's bullshit.
Like, I reckon everybody needs, everyone needs help
and everyone needs to collaborate and things are always better
when you collaborate.
Things are like, the product's always better.
I think it's like, they talk about like, you know,
if you go on the Instagram and you get all those, you know,
you go on a meme thing, it's like, you know,
Think about, you know, Kobe Bryant's always talking,
don't think about the destination.
It's about the journey.
And I was hopeless at that.
Like, I used to always, it was like, I've got to,
if I do this thing, I'll get this and then I'll be,
I'll be then I'm a success, right?
If the show gets to three series, I'm a success.
Everyone will know I'm a success.
I'll get more work.
And it got to three series and it's like, okay,
now I've got to get to like, and this happens to everyone.
Like, it doesn't matter what mountain you climb.
There's a big one.
So I'm trying to do that.
And I think the way through that is,
is enjoying the people that you work with.
And I think you'd probably age helps.
Like you get to an age and you're like, oh,
it's actually the, it's actually the people.
And it's the, and so, and then you,
your ego drops off.
Like you're, you don't,
your idea doesn't have to be the best idea.
So I would say that they're the best thing about my career to date.
Has been the collaboration.
Beautifully said.
Who's been the greatest leader in your life?
I think the person that's taught possibly taught me the most is my son,
He's not a leader necessarily, but he,
He, so he's not biologically my son,
but I looked after him.
His father died of brain cancer and I took him on as my son.
And I see him absolutely as my son.
he has this wonderful disposition that I envy.
So I think he's taught me the most about how to live life.
he's not a leader in the,
in the sense that what you're,
you're asking me,
but when he was five years old,
I was driving the car with him and I said,
oh, I must've just been overthinking.
Oh, like what is it with life?
Sometimes it can be huge.
it's just the way life is that it's just the way life is.
And I was just like,
so I've got this picture of him in my,
as a five-year-old in my office that just says,
it's just the way life is.
and whenever it's like,
when it's not going my way,
I just look at that and go,
it's going to be all right.
It's brilliant answer.
And I think that is exactly the,
the answer that makes sense.
And I think the thing we like is that you don't have to be a CEO to be a leader.
You don't have to be an adult to be a leader.
Like you learn our own kids teach us enormous amounts that night.
to see that just someone that had their own tragedy at a young age must be a
connection you both have there.
it's a brilliant answer,
understanding you learn.
And I think that's probably in the past parents didn't did that learn from out
four kids all the time,
especially when you get it wrong or you see the way they are able to do things
that I could never have been out to do.
it's a brilliant answer.
We're obsessed with collaboration in the world of a leader.
And it's been great pleasure as I said,
to have you in that growing community.
got great collaboration on your answer before meant a lot.
There's been someone who thought she's on that part of my life.
I'd love to collaborate with anyone in particular.
Is there a name that springs to mind?
One of my dear friends is Kitty Flanagan.
She's at the moment,
she's doing Fisk,
which is his killing.
she does that with a dear friend of mine at the director.
So I'd love to do more stuff with her again,
because we used to work together a lot.
I'd love to do more philanthropy,
like get into more of the stuff that you guys do.
I don't want to make dick jokes the rest of my life.
Like I want to be good to,
that's a really good question.
Like Ryan Reynolds would be good.
I'd love to make it.
I'd love to make a F like a narrative series or a film.
if rusty Russell Crowe's listening,
he'll be listening.
He'd be listening.
And that's the beauty of it.
your answers are well thought out and,
and they come from a place of just genuine honesty.
And it's refreshing to hear.
And I appreciate you being so open and honest.
You had more than a fair share of hurdles to jump through,
but to see the way you've been able to connect with people.
I've really loved it.
Lots to learn from,
our catch up today,
Thanks for joining me on your desk.
Thanks for listening to another episode of the empowering leaders podcast.
Thanks as always to our great friends at temper.
And we encourage you to check out our leader connect program.
New episodes are out every Wednesday morning at 6 0.