This week's guest on the Empowering Leaders podcast is the remarkable Bev Menna, the CEO
of Cell Therapies, voted as one of the entrepreneurs of the year and life-saving treatments that
are coming out of her incredible background and knowledge in the world of science.
Bev's childhood journey has been different to so many we've spoken to on the Empowering
Leaders podcast, finding out who she is and where she belongs in the world at a very young
I'm adopted, so I have a different sort of background to the people, to my family that
I grew up with, and I think I've always been a little bit fascinated by genetics, fascinated
by nature, fascinated by, you know, our relationships with each other.
So for me, I just naturally fell into being really interested in science.
Bev talks about her path to becoming a genetic counsellor, and that has sent her around Australia
to study a vast array of topics that included wallabies.
Wallaby lactation, of all things.
First in Perth, and then I made a move over to Canberra, to the ANU, where I studied wallaby
lactation, which is much more interesting than you probably, I can tell from the look
on your face, which is very, very interesting.
As the CEO of Cell Therapies, an incredible start-up business, Bev and her team are now
on the cusp of revolutionising the way cancers are being treated.
This type of immune therapy is really, is really going to revolutionise medicine.
The challenge is, though, it's very expensive.
This is having a medicine made for you and you alone.
We are really privileged and love having Bev Manor as part of our expanding Alita Connect
community, growing community of leaders who get together in groups of five or six around
the globe from backgrounds like science and technology.
You just heard from Bev to the world of sports, social venture, the arts.
We would love to connect with you.
If you're interested in Alita Connect, book a discovery call today.
Head to alitacollective.com.
Thanks to Jason Nicholas and his team from Temper Bedding, a mattress like no other.
Their ongoing support.
Of the Empowering Leaders podcast.
Bev Manor has years experience across the Australian and global biopharmaceutical and
healthcare sectors.
She holds a PhD in molecular medicine and additional qualifications in genetic counselling,
project management and decision analysis.
Bev commenced her career with postdoctoral roles in cancer research before moving to
genetic counselling practice and then commercial roles in research and development, portfolio
management and strategic partnerships.
Bev is CEO of Cell Therapies.
A biotech company that specialises in personalised cancer therapies and was nominated as the
Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year.
Bev, it's great to see you.
Thanks for joining me.
Thanks very much, Das.
Great to be here.
I hope I've done justice to what is in it.
Extraordinary life's work.
You know, PhD in molecular medicine.
You've gone on and got the additional qualifications, genetic counselling, a range of things.
Why did science grab you?
What was the passion for that?
Yeah, it's a great question.
I mean, I grew up in a small country town in Western Australia.
Busselton, in a family where no one had been to university before.
I'm adopted, so I have a different sort of background to the people, to my family that
And I think I've always been a little bit fascinated by genetics, fascinated by nature,
fascinated by, you know, our relationships with each other.
So for me, I just naturally fell into being really interested in science.
And then it was one of those things, you know,
I went to the local high school and I did well at science.
I did well at maths.
You know, when you like something, you do well at it, yeah.
And then I just sort of found my way forward from there, I think.
Have you gone back as a genetic counsellor and looked back at the birth heritage?
Is there some science in that world?
Yeah, interesting.
So I actually, I know my biological family.
So my natural mum, she's actually an artist.
So I did say to her recently, you know, I really wish you'd passed on some artistic genes,
because I don't have any of those.
And my natural dad, he was actually in the SAS.
He was an elite performer on a different stage.
He was probably, you know, more academic than my mum.
So it was sort of interesting that they had quite different pathways.
But again, growing up in country Western Australia, you know,
not a natural breeding ground maybe for scientists.
And for someone who sounds like you grew up in a really loving family in country,
you know, Western Australia.
And then you have this whole second, you know, and as you say, natural family.
How did that evolve for you as a young woman growing up?
Was it challenging?
It's interesting, you know, I think, I mean, I was born back in 1970.
So that's a long time ago.
And my mum and dad, I think, were pretty special people to make a choice to adopt
after they'd already had kids because they just wanted more kids just because they
loved raising kids and raising a family.
And so they were incredibly loving.
They were incredibly loving, incredibly positive.
They referred to myself and my other adopted sister as their chosen children.
It was always a real positive.
And they always sort of said to us, your mum didn't give you up because she didn't love you.
She actually just couldn't look after you.
And they were always very encouraging for me to find my natural family.
And so, which was awesome.
And then I went through a process when I turned 18 where you can actually apply for your birth
And my mum had, my natural mum had also applied to the Australian National University.
So we contacted each other very quickly.
And it was interesting.
Her and I have a really close friendship.
She's a really lovely woman, but not my mum.
You know, the family you grow up in, I think, are really special in a different way.
Certainly, if you saw my mum and I sitting here next to each other, you know, we're mistaken
as sisters very frequently.
I see it as nothing but a positive.
And for me, it was also always, I think, a point of fascination that I was in this family
that was very loving and encouraging.
But then, you know, there was this, there was this other thing, this genetics thing
that was, you know, that was something altogether different.
Well, as a scientist, it's the ultimate study in some way.
Nature versus nurture.
You're a living, you know, breathing.
I was trying to choose a better word than that, Bev, at the time.
But there's been some fascinating studies done on that.
Which side do you sit on?
Yeah, I think it's fascinating.
So, you know, my natural mum said to me a few years.
Actually, we were standing around and she just looked across from me and went,
oh, my God, the way you are standing right now, like, is exactly like your natural dad.
My natural dad was actually killed when he was 27 in combat.
So I've never had the opportunity to meet him.
I know all of his family.
So she could pick a characteristic in the way I was standing, which is incredible.
Yeah, you think this is a person I've never met.
I truly believe, and now we've many decades working in medical science,
I truly believe that what happens to us
and where we end up in life is an absolute combination of our genes and our circumstances.
I think there are some things, and even right down to diseases, you know,
there are some things that we just have written into our genes.
But then whether or not they play out in our lives or how they play out,
I think really does come down to what we surround ourselves with.
There's a famous story that I saw recently where it might have been an orphanage in America,
I'm not sure if you saw that, where they were trying to conduct that experiment,
and they were getting twins and triplets that were put into that orphanage
and then strategically sending them to affluent families,
non-affluent families around the New York area.
And what happened when those kids grew up,
some of them crossed over at college, had no understanding that that study had been.
Have you seen that story?
I mean, you wouldn't ethically do it ever again.
There was some tragedy that evolved out of it,
separating triplets when perhaps you didn't need to.
And I think that study's been locked away because of the,
the ethical issues of it.
But it's probably the great question we're thinking about.
Is our environment the thing more than our genetics?
Yeah, I really believe it's 50-50.
And especially when you come down to working in genetics and genetics of diseases,
you know, when you have exactly the same genetic kind of makeup to animals
and one will get a disease and one won't,
or, you know, we really are a reflection of our environment as well, I think.
And I think the more we learn about medicine and biology,
the more we know how much the environment can actually impact,
you know, our own health.
But there is that underlying genetic element that we,
that we certainly can't escape.
So the genetic counselling is probably where to go to, isn't it?
I mean, for those that, like me, non-medical people,
what's the possibility of genetic counselling?
Why are you so fascinated with that?
Yeah, so I, I had an interesting path to get to genetic counselling.
So I went through my university years in, first in Perth,
and then I made a move over to Canberra,
to the ANU where I studied wallaby lactation,
which is much more interesting than you probably,
I can tell from the look on your face, which is very, very interesting.
And then I actually made a move here to Melbourne
and I did my PhD here at the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute.
You're going to ask me something about wallaby lactation.
How does that become a field of study?
Okay, so let me tell you something very cool about wallabies and kangaroos, actually.
So in their pouches, they have four teats to feed their young.
And you know how when baby wallabies are born, they're like, like a centimetre long,
but then they can grow up to be, you know, 20 centimetres high and still feeding.
So the mother can actually produce different milk from neighbouring,
from neighbouring teats in her, in her pouch, which is pretty bloody amazing.
So how that's controlled and how we learn more about milk production and,
you know, and a whole lot of stuff associated with that.
It's, it's a big field of study.
It's, it's an important thing.
We can learn a lot from the animals around us.
I didn't cut you off when you're trying to pass to genetic counselling.
So sorry for that.
So I, I moved on and did my PhD in cancer genetics here in Melbourne and love the science.
Like I'm just so fascinated by science, but I did work out on that path that being in a lab
I'm energised by people.
I'm a true extrovert and being in a lab, you know, for long hours by myself,
wasn't really the path for me.
So I was over in New York working in a lab over there after my PhD and I was in a lift one day.
And I saw a notice about genetic counselling and I'd never heard of it.
It was a term I'd never heard.
So I thought I'm going to go along and listen to that seminar.
And it was, I came out of that going, yeah, I'm going to give that a crack.
So I came back to Australia.
So what genetic counselling is, is it's a field of, of endeavour where we train as,
as counsellors, but we sit with people who are trying to make decisions about whether
they will or won't have a genetic test.
And there's a lot that can impact that.
And that might be in the setting of a pregnancy.
It might be in the setting.
A very strong family history of cancer.
So helping people to work out, do they want to have testing?
And then before they have the testing, help them actually walk down the paths of, okay,
if you got this result, what would you do?
And help them kind of walk, walk through the positives and negatives of those things.
So helping people, you know, who have a strong family history of breast cancer and they
carry a genetic predisposition, helping them manage that.
What would you do?
Would you go and have prophylactic surgery to remove your breasts?
So you don't get cancer.
So it's helping people with those really important life decisions.
And I think, um, that was a time when I really learnt about how important connection
with patients, connection with family members, connection between family members
and is, is just so critical.
And Bev, you're the CEO of Cell Therapies and we have just seen you recently nominated.
Congratulations on that again for an Entrepreneur of the Year award, a crystal ball out.
As someone who's passionate about breast cancer.
As someone who's passionate about science and health, what, what are you hoping to achieve?
Um, so the therapies that we make at Cell Therapies are sort of the next generation
cancer therapies.
So we, this is where, you know, patients that have, um, have, have exhausted all hope of
treatment with their cancers.
There's this new way of treating them where we can actually take that patient's own blood
cells, bring it to our labs, genetically change those cells so that they, when we put them
back into that patient, they recognise the cancer cells and they literally seek and destroy
So then with one treatment, they can go from having not very many weeks to live to being
It's truly the most exceptional thing I think I've seen in, in my career of many decades.
Like it is truly, and this is happening down the road here in Melbourne and all over the
So it's really, truly amazing, amazing science that we're, so we actually are the ones that
do that work for patients that are, that are here in Australia and around the world.
That's a profound thing that you just said, Bev.
And, you know, your eyes light up with that.
Is it applied to all sorts of different cancers?
You're having success across the range of cancers?
Yeah, it's at the moment there, um, the cancers where we have approval for these drugs around
the world, um, are in leukaemias and lymphomas, but there are hundreds and hundreds of new
versions of this type of therapy and development, um, that are coming through clinical trials
now and we're supporting a lot of those.
And they are in everything from solid cancer.
Cancers like bowel cancers to sarcomas, and then even outside of cancers, they're being
tested, um, this type of treatment for lupus and other immune disorders.
So this type of immune therapy is really, is really going to revolutionize medicine.
The challenge is though, it's very expensive.
This is having a medicine made for you and you alone.
So we're, we're trying to now work out, all right, how do we actually, you know, it's
great that we can do this really clever science, but how do we make that available to more
So that's the, that's the big challenge.
And I think where we want to get to is we want to be making these therapies in an affordable
way so that people don't have to wait until they're really, really sick before they get
off of this type of therapy.
Yeah, you can feel the energy and the passion that comes out of you.
And so it should, I mean, given what, uh, you know, so many people are facing and I
think everyone's been touched by cancer in one shape or another, you're now the CEO of
And so you've got this incredible academic background and great history and you work
at CSL and in research.
So now you've got to tap into a whole different set of skills as a leader of a, of a growing
What have you found within yourself to achieve that?
Do you know, I actually feel like all of the different jobs that I've done that have led
me to the last year when I've stepped into this role have all played a really key part.
So I think being a genetic counsellor, you need to learn how to listen to people and
to communicate with people in a, you know, in a clear way.
And that's not just scientists, that's, you know, all sorts of people.
I think I have my grounding in science.
I obviously need that to be able to understand what it is that we're doing and to make sure
that the people that we're working with are on the same page.
I think just my innate passion for people and communication and connection is, you know,
is just really central.
We've, you know, we've rebuilt a leadership team and we're, we're hiring new people all
the time into our business because it's, it's a really, you know, rapidly growing field.
So I think for me, it's, it's, it's bringing all that experience that I've had to, to bring
To focus everyone on the mission that we have and, and then to keep people motivated and
on track and help them get there, help get the hurdles out of the way.
My job's not to do the work.
The smart people that work with me do that.
My job is to really set the vision and then get out of the way so they can do it.
I was reading some of the health data out of the US in recent times and to use the word
alarming, I don't think it's being excessive.
When you see that 75% of Americans are now technically overweight, 50% are obese, every
They've either got diabetes or pre-diabetic.
There's a whole range of chronic health issues that are going on.
And at times it feels like Australia to me is becoming a mini version of the US and we're
seeing these chronic health issues.
As a scientist passionate about health, you can tell your world lights up.
You want, you want to make the world better for people.
Should we be alarmed at the state of health in the West?
I think there's a lot to be alarmed about, but I do think there's also, you know, there's
a lot to feel positive about.
I mean, I have a lot to do with the younger generation.
I'm involved with a, with a, an independent school here.
And so I get to actually engage with a whole lot of students at that school.
And you actually see this next generation.
I know lots of people say negative things about the generations that are coming.
I, I, I feel, I feel eternally optimistic because I see these bright young people that
are passionate about their health.
They're actually drinking more than probably you or I did back in the day.
They're drinking a lot less.
They're drinking a lot less, aren't they?
I think we're all, you know, very optimistic.
Very aware of the impacts now of, of diet and smoking and those sorts of things.
So I, I think there's a lot to feel positive about.
I mean, I think, you know, I think, I think we're on the right path.
When I hear the genius of what someone like you is doing, taking someone's blood and personalising
a therapy that can kill cancer cells and take someone from stage four cancer to reverse
their health outcomes and give people, family members a second chance at life.
To me, it seems at times that, you know, you've got that genius of what,
the world you operate in, but then sometimes the, the, the obvious natural things like
diet, like a bit of exercise, like some sunlight, like sleeping better, all these things that
are applicable to everyone has almost been lost.
Do we need those worlds to collaborate better than they have done that the holistic way
Is that something that the science world can maybe find a way to collaborate with a bit
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
And I do think, um, I think collaboration's at centre of everything, but I do think,
we need to, we as scientists actually need to do a better job, um, of communicating and
connecting and collaborating with the non-scientific community.
And I think, uh, I think we saw this in, in stark, you know, kind of contrast, contrast
during the pandemic, like the scientists had a particular view on what was going on and
that was quite different to what, you know, the most of the people in the community thought
because scientists are generally not particularly good at communicating and, and teaching.
People and educating them.
So I think there's a bit of a responsibility on us as a community to be better at that
education and communication piece, um, be it around vaccination or be it around, um,
the impacts of, you know, um, of obesity on, on your health.
So I think we've got to do it better.
And I think there's a role, um, you know, there's a role for the scientists, but then
there's a role sort of in the broader community as well.
I'm keen to come back and ask you a question about the COVID period in a moment, but I
wanted to jump off.
The collaboration piece is why we're so excited, uh, Bev, to have you join our leader
community as a, as a world renowned expert in, in the field of science.
And to see you collaborate with, um, Don Pike, who's a legend of the AFL world, John
Horst from the Walkie Bucks and the NBA, uh, Jeremy is, uh, doing great things at Google.
Lisa Kaplan's an Olympic gold medalist and a legend in every sense, Ed Policy from Green
It's a very different minds getting together to connect and to share and to learn, which
we're really fascinated about.
Can you tell us about.
Yeah, it's, it's been brilliant and it's the reason that I, the reason I got involved
was to get out of my bubble of talking to other scientists, you know, like I think in,
in our professional lives, generally, I don't know if it's worse in science or in than in
other parts, but I think we very quickly get channeled down a path where you look around
and you find that you're in a bit of an echo chamber and the people that you're talking
to all the time are people that have the same background, the same experiences have read
the same things as you have.
You know, I think that's, I think that's, um, limiting and to your previous question,
I think that's what doesn't help us in terms of connecting, you know, science and lifestyle
And, you know, I think we actually need to look outside of our little lane that we get
So for me to be sitting around a virtual table with, you know, um, with that group of people
is, is just sensational.
And I think we learn and we're reminded every time we talk about the similarities are greater
than the differences.
And for me, that's really key.
That's the key to everything that we do in leadership.
It's like, even if you're working with someone or working with a group and you think there's
real difference, there's always more similarities.
And so I think with a group of people in such different fields, we get together and we can
help each other solve problems because we're looking at it through different lenses and
we're all actually suffering through pretty similar problems.
It really doesn't matter what, you know, what area you're working in.
And I just think it's such a wonderful space to, to be able to do that.
And there's not many places in life where you get the opportunity to do that.
Beautifully said, Bev, thanks for, for sharing that.
And I love that you met, you mentioned that, isn't it?
That often the similarity, when you sit down, you think you're at the other end of the debate
And over time, it used to be the great skill that I think we've lost, isn't it?
We used to sort of come together with different views and then often meet in the middle and
it feels like the council culture world and the algorithms are pushing us further and
But I think you described that in a beautiful way.
You've got to come back to the COVID era.
I think, you know, as you and I are residents of, of Melbourne, Victoria.
Which holds a record not many would want to have as one of the most locked down cities
in the world through that period of time.
And I think if we weren't interested in health before that or science, you became very interested
And it felt like a time, Bev, where if you asked a question about, do you think keeping
our kids out of school for two years has some cost and, and, and tragedy attached to it
Do you think that the idea that everyone has to take a medical product is fair?
I think they're reasonable questions to ask.
A hundred percent.
People got smashed for asking questions, simply asking questions like that.
People got arrested in their house for, you know, pregnant women in Melbourne for the
thought that maybe this was getting a little bit excessive.
As a scientist with all your knowledge.
What, what should we learn from that period?
So I think, so for me in that period, so I was, I was at CSL and I was leading the work
to actually manufacture the AstraZeneca vaccine alongside the UQ vaccine.
So I was working as the bridge between CSL, AstraZeneca and the federal government.
Right at the coalface.
So that was my job and, and it was, it was crazy.
Like it was really going back to collaboration.
It is the most impressive, impressive collaborative effort that I have seen in my life.
Like I was sitting on phone calls with people from nine different pharmaceutical companies
around the one table.
Now we're fierce competitors.
So I sat on the other side and went, okay, how do we actually work out, how do we solve
this together to get to a vaccine as fast as we humanly can?
And that was the most amazing sense of collaboration that I, that I think I've seen.
So, so for me, that period was a period that actually shows that science and our world
of pharmaceutical companies, we can do like amazing good when, you know, when we actually,
when we, when we need to, and to answer, you know, to answer that call, I think in terms
of how that impacted us as a society.
My biggest concern is that we won't learn from what we did.
I think we have to look very holistically at what was the impact, not just on the number
of people who contracted COVID because most of us are fine.
Or we have to look at the number of people that died, but we do have to look at the longer
term mental health impact on our community, in particular, our young people.
And I think we've got to look at the impact on our business and our economy, and we've
got to look at as a whole.
And we have to compare it with global data.
We're in this, this unique position now where we can sit back and we can look at data from
every country around the world.
And we know how everyone handled it differently.
Sweden didn't do a single enforced lockdown.
So let's actually look, did they have a better outcome or a worse outcome than what we did
And I just really hope that we pause and do that.
We've got all this fabulous data around.
Let's use it so that the next time we come to a pandemic, we're going to actually handle
it a lot more intelligently.
Which is a great way to think about it, isn't it?
And a balanced and fair way is actually, because you actually have got, you said, unique case
studies, isn't it?
The Swedes were very different to other parts of the world.
To the agendas that drive some of these things, as someone who gets a little concerned, I
mean, around outcomes, there's huge dollars to be made in any of these spaces at times.
And people wanting to set certain agendas, does that allow those independent studies
to be, to be had?
Well, I think that the data will be there.
The World Health Organization.
The World Health Organization have that data.
So we've got the data.
I think the bit that's the concern, it's more the political, it's the political lens.
It's like, will we allow ourselves to actually sit down and put ourselves under that scrutiny
and allow ourselves to go, okay, well, we did what we thought was best at the time,
But now looking back, we actually know that wasn't the right thing.
Like someone has to be the grown up in the room and actually do that.
So whether we look to our politicians or what leaders we look to.
We don't know what they're going to do to actually do that, but we really have to do
that piece of work.
There's every chance that there will be another pandemic at some point.
Hopefully it won't be to the extent of the one we've just lived through, but we've, we
should really go into it much better prepared than we did this time.
I've said in this space a number of times that one of the subsets was that there were
in this state that we live in 600 teenage girls a week in the end were getting diagnosed
with eating disorders.
And if that's not readily shared that information, how do you learn from it?
Is that cost worth the...
The benefit of keeping kids away from school?
There's a whole range of things, but I love the way you think about it is let's hopefully
learn from it and work out if we can do it better in the hope that it doesn't happen
We love this idea that success leaves clues and I love your background and the unique
way that you think.
And we think it's very hard to lead someone else in any form of your life without this
idea of self-leadership.
So how do you make you feel good so that you can lead others, Bev?
What do you do for yourself?
There's a number of things.
I go to the gym five mornings a week.
I wake up really early in the morning because I love it.
As I said, I'm an extrovert.
There's another group of really mad people that like go to the gym at five o'clock in
the morning and they're freaking awesome.
They're not there to dick around.
They're there to do a workout and to have a bit of a laugh.
And so for me, exercise is really, really key.
We live on the beach, which is very, very lucky and I just love it.
So being near water is really important.
Being able to go with my son and grab a stand up paddle board and walk out the front and
Those sorts of things to me, you know, nature, fresh air.
We've also, a year ago, we, my husband and I bought a block of land out in East Gippsland
and it's a five acre block, little tiny house on it, which is off grid.
And our plan is to regenerate it with indigenous plants and trees.
So we've started that.
That's a lifelong project.
We want, we want there to be a little piece of the world that's actually better off because
we were here when we leave.
So that's what we're working on.
So we go out there and that's, there's just kangaroos.
There's no fences.
It's very basic and I just love it to bits.
Any lactating wallabies out there?
No, there's probably are lactating wallabies, yes, but I don't.
And if anyone knows what's going on with those wallabies, you're the person.
I love what you said.
That's incredible that you can just see really clearly what makes you feel good.
I love hearing that from different people.
If you go to the gym at 5am, you're not mucking around.
You're there for business.
And you want to get in and get it done.
Is there one piece of leadership advice that you pass on regularly?
Uh, yeah, actually, I think for me, and it comes down to what we, what we focus on at
a leader, I think it's, um, connection ahead of content.
I think you can't lead another person or a group or an organisation unless you actually
can connect with people, um, and really properly connect with them and understand where they're
coming from, what's motivating them so that you can then point people in the direction
that they, that they need to head.
I think that's what I went on to the CEO role a year ago.
I promised that I would sit down one-on-one and meet the 70 staff that are
in the organisation, which I did, and I continue as new starters come into the organisation.
I sit down just for half an hour, just to have a conversation to find out what they do
in their spare time.
What do they do to, you know, kind of fill their bucket?
Then I think being able to connect with people is so important as a leader, because if you
make yourself available in a really honest and open way, then, then you're available
for them to come to you.
If they've got a problem, an idea, then they can come to you and help you develop something
you know, they've got something to kind of share with you.
I think if you can't make that connection, I think it's a real problem.
Connection ahead of content is genius.
We were talking before we started recording Brian McNamee,
who I've had the pleasure of talking to,
who was the leader of a business you worked in for a long period of time.
That was a very similar thing that he spoke about.
That is a massive, massive global behemoth of a business.
But even in that scale, connection still works for you.
Yeah, absolutely.
And Brian is just one of the most impressive leaders I've ever worked with.
And even my 14 years at CSL working, most of that was working globally.
And so you need to find ways to connect remotely with people.
I mean, my team was spread over Europe, the US and Australia.
But still being able to connect as humans first before,
I think if you can't do that,
you can't drive a group of people to do what you need to get done.
Beautifully said.
Setting the vision is one.
Do you have any advice on how to deliver a vision within a team?
I mean, what you're doing in your space is just so incredible and unique,
but I'm assuming to get 70 people focused,
how do you go about sharing that vision?
In a way, our area is really easy
because at the end of every single thing that we do,
there's a patient who is going to potentially live a long and healthy life
as opposed to not.
So that's a pretty big driver.
I try and always bring it back to the patient and even at Cell Therapies,
we've actually had a patient who's received these types of therapies
and was a young woman with a young family who was in a really bad way
and now is cancer-free and she came and spoke to all the staff.
that is the clearest way to articulate vision and to remind people,
this is why we're here, this is why we're doing this.
And I think bringing it back in our space,
certainly bringing it back to the patient,
is the most important thing.
Curiosity is a word we use all the time in this world.
Does that show up for you?
Can you describe maybe a rabbit hole that your curiosity has taken you down in recent times?
I think science, you have to be intrinsically curious.
I think it's what we do is ask questions and challenge what we already know
to see if we can get it better or see if we can do something in a smarter way.
I think for me, the curiosity shows up more almost
in terms of the people.
I'm really curious about the people that I work with
because some people you meet and you just go,
oh my God, I just did not connect with that person at all.
But I need to, to make this work.
So what is it about that person?
What is it that I can actually be curious about?
How can I find a way that we can get on the same page
so that we can actually form the connection that we need to make
to be able to work?
So I think humans, I'm really, really curious about.
That's, you know,
I heard one of our sporting coaches on the podcast
in our little world is that, you know,
some people are quite hard to love in that space,
but you have to keep trying until you find that one connection point,
that one thing that you're both curious about,
and then you can build a relationship from there.
Sounds like you work hard to do that.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think because I think you've got to find that point of connection
and it can be really hard to find.
And that really frustrates me, actually.
That's one of the things that frustrates me.
If I can't connect with someone,
that I really want to connect with,
then I find that pretty hard, actually.
So, yeah, I work at it.
We love this quote that the cost of leadership is time.
How do you juggle your workloads and your demands
to be able to live the life that you want to live
but still foster that connection and collaboration?
It's challenging, yeah.
So I also am the chair of a board at an independent school here in Melbourne
that just does brilliant things around education,
and I love pouring my time into that.
I love pouring my time into that.
I love pouring my time into my family and, you know,
obviously then, you know, my role as a CEO and myself.
I think you've got to be kind to yourself sometimes.
I think, I mean, I could put each one of those things
could almost be a full-time job.
So I think you've got to actually say I can only give a certain percentage
of my time this week to that.
And for me, when people talk about that work-life balance,
it's not like 50% work, 50% non-work.
I think it's some weeks, you know,
you actually have to tip it off.
You have to tip it a little bit towards the CEO role.
But then there are other weeks where it's like that needs to take a back seat
because, you know, my family needs to take priority.
So I do think just being mindful and just being a little bit easy on yourself
and realising that that's actually okay.
Yeah, be kind to yourself is a good way to think.
I think talking about communication and people's communication strategies
is probably the most common thing I hear in those conversations.
Have you got a mantra of your own when it comes to the way you communicate?
I think I've learnt,
and I'm still learning that everyone receives information in different ways.
And I think assuming that the person that's sitting across from you
receives the information the same way that you do is a mistake.
That will set you up for failure.
I think trying to work out, okay,
how does this person need to hear this information?
Is it in the written form?
Is it in a pictorial form?
Is it in the verbal form?
And so I think just trying to, again,
be curious about the person that you're sitting across from
and working out, okay,
how do they need to hear this?
Because it's really important for me,
for them to understand that.
And then when I'm talking to the whole group,
really trying to make sure I'm using a whole variety of things,
that I'm using verbal communication,
that I've got slides,
that I've got written documents if they're helpful.
So I think it's that style,
it's that communication style
and finding what works for the other person.
Bev, who's been the greatest leader in your life?
No hesitation, no.
She was an uneducated,
not formally educated person living in a small country town,
but she raised four pretty strong independent women.
Yeah, four girls.
And I think if you looked at her now
or if you had looked at her before she passed,
you would say that she was your classic 1950s housewife
that was very focused about keeping the house nice
and making sure the kids were quiet
when dad came home from work.
Which was absolutely all her.
But underneath that,
she was fiercely strong and independent
and kind of really knew...
She really taught us all how to stand up for ourselves
and how to be heard.
So I just think it's pretty impressive
to wear all of those hats.
And adopted two other girls on top of the two...
That she already had, yeah.
That's pretty special, isn't it?
Really, really impressive, impressive woman.
She must have been incredibly proud of you
and the path you went down.
Although she did still like to remind me
right up until like the week before she passed
that a mother's role is at home with her children.
And of course I have a child
and of course I love being at home
and spending time with my child
but I also have a career which she did struggle with.
But yeah, it came from a place of love.
But I love that you can celebrate that era
of what it was, isn't it?
I've got to be careful as a male talking about that
because you sound...
My mother-in-law is very...
Very much of that generation.
Some of the things she says to my beautiful wife
and I'm like, I would never say that.
But it's to see that someone was so incredible
and able to, as you said, give so much
and form so much of who you and your sisters are,
that's an incredible legacy, isn't it?
Yeah, absolutely.
So we're obsessed with this idea of collaboration
and it's been such a pleasure to meet you
and to see what you're doing in the elitist world
inside tour and any other of your passions.
Has there been...
God, I'd love to connect with that
or collaborate with a particular person.
Is there a name that springs to mind?
I think if it was kind of like pick anyone in the world
kind of exercise, then David Attenborough.
I mean, I think what we want to do
in our tiny piece of the world in terms of our block
and regenerating that and being kind to the environment
is really important to us in our family
and in our household.
But then also at the school,
the school that I'm involved with,
they're on 100 acres of native bushland
and are really committed to looking after that 100 acres
and doing the right thing by that,
not just for this generation, but for those that come.
So I would just love to be able to sit down
and work with someone like David Attenborough
and to understand what are the things that we can do
to actually set up ourselves and the next generation
so that we can actually do better in that space
of looking after our environment.
And I think in particular here in Australia
It's such a unique set of plants and animals.
We have to work particularly hard, I think,
to make sure that we keep our environment in good shape.
So yeah, I would just love that.
I just could also listen to him all day.
I mean, he sounds wonderful.
It's the best voice you've ever heard, isn't it?
Bev, I am that full of optimism
having just spent some time with you now.
You're saving people's lives from the hardship
and tragedy of cancer that we've all been touched with.
And then you're looking after your piece of land
that's going to be, I'm sure,
a legacy that shows how we can be sustainable
and look after the native flora and fauna here in Australia.
It's a great pleasure to spend some time with you.
Congratulations on everything you're doing
and really appreciate it.
Lovely. Thanks so much.
And thanks for a leader.
Yeah, it really is absolutely awesome.
And I think I've never come across a space like that
where we can connect in such a genuine and real way
with people from such diverse backgrounds.
And I just, yeah, I really value it.
So thank you for everything you're doing.
Thanks for listening to another episode
of the Empowering Leaders podcast.
Huge thanks as always to our great friends at Temper.
And we encourage you to check out our Leader Connect program.
New episodes are out every Wednesday morning at 6am.