What an incredible conversation this week on the Empowering Leaders podcast.
I had the great pleasure of talking to the principal conductor of the Melbourne Symphony
Orchestra and two-time ARIA Award winner, Benjamin Northey.
Listening to Ben's thoughts on curiosity as the ultimate path to learning and the most
important thing we can pass on to our kids, I found fascinating.
Ben's perspective on pressure and musical performance was equally compelling.
I learnt an incredible amount from Ben and I'm sure you're going to enjoy this conversation.
Ben has collaborated with a plethora of musicians across the world, including the likes of Ben
Folds, Nick Cave, KD Lang, Sting, the late, great Archie Roach, and the list goes on and
And this type of collaboration is a big part of the world I love to explore through Alita,
a business founded with my great friend, Matt Wadowitz.
It's a place where leaders can collaborate and learn from one another.
We've had some incredible names join us, including Hamish and Andy's
Andy Lee, Ange Postacoglu from Celtic, Arsenal's Mikel Arteta, just to name a few.
And we are equally excited about you joining as well.
If it's a space that you are interested in, we would love you to check it out at
alitacollective.com.
Encourage you to have a look at our signature Alita Connect program to understand how people
like Ben, who's part of that program, are collaborating and leading in their world.
Ben, it's a great privilege to spend some time with you.
I've been really looking forward to this.
Thanks for joining me.
Oh, it's a pleasure, Das.
And yeah, I get tired.
Just hearing that list of stuff that's been going on.
But yeah, it's amazing, actually, just to reflect on a few of those things that you
read out and and realize that before that, I actually had a different kind of life as
a performing musician.
I used to play the saxophone and I played in cover bands in Melbourne and did all kinds
And as you mentioned, that diversity has ended up being a strength of mine.
So, yeah, it's interesting.
I want to talk to that in a minute, the diversity of your music passion.
But can I go back reading as young as two?
I understand that you were obsessed with your mum and dad's record collection.
And by the age of three, your mum, who's an outstanding pianist, had enrolled you in a
Yamaha early learning class.
Can you remember as young as that age having music in your DNA?
I remember listening to records back in, I'm born in 1970, so a child of the 70s.
And I remember they, mum and dad, did have a great record collection.
And that was the thing.
You're always looking for what your kids show interests in, aren't you?
You know, especially.
And they saw me stop when the music was playing and just sit there, you know, and listen as
And so they just kept feeding that interest and that appetite.
And so I do remember actually listening to records.
They, you know, they would play all kinds of stuff.
They actually had a really interesting collection of music for young children by a European
guy called Carl Orff, who had a sort of system of teaching music.
It was called Schulwerk, schoolwork for young.
And I think actually I got a hell of a lot out of listening to that because it was like
the building blocks of music and absorbing that at that young, really young age.
Music just sort of made sense to me a bit more after that.
It was interesting.
You mentioned, you know, playing and your diverse interests.
I read you started with the violin at school.
You moved to the trumpet, the flute.
At uni you played the saxophone, as you said, in a James Brown cover band.
And then you studied the soprano saxophone.
Now I look at you as one of the world's leading conductors.
Do you think that there's so much benefit for you and having played so many instruments
that that has really helped you in what you do now?
Well, yes, but it's a very unconventional pathway.
So if you were going to say to somebody or if they said, I want to be a conductor, that's
not the pathway that you would give them.
It would be much more specialised.
They would say, you know, play the piano, work in an opera company.
Perhaps and accompany singers, work your way up to conducting as the second or third
conductor, get your opportunities in front of the orchestra that way.
Or what's more common now is play in an orchestra for a period of time.
And so I play because I was playing the saxophone primarily as a teenager.
I was in what they call wind ensembles.
So we had no strings.
It was just wind bands.
And that was very different, but similar in the same sense because they're large ensembles.
So I got the same kind of large ensemble.
But when I look at the crazy journey in music I went on because I was sort of curious about
the next thing, it seemed random at the time.
And it's only now that I look back on it and I go, actually, that's a great foundation
for the work I'm doing.
And it's kind of come in really handy for me.
Do you still play?
I actually still own my soprano saxophone.
But, you know, the thing, Das, is now that I work, I don't play.
I don't work and collaborate with so many world-class performers.
Like, if I pick up the saxophone after not having played it for 10 years or something,
it's not going to sound great.
And it's going to be even worse because I know what it can sound like, you know, the
way I used to play when I was working at it every day, but also working with these amazing
soloists, you just think, well, the world doesn't need to hear me play anymore.
That's an interesting way to think.
I suppose, as you said, you're with the world's best and your ear must be...
I look at your role without understanding it, but think, in some ways, it's the ultimate
You've got, is it up to 90 musicians in an orchestra?
Yeah, well, sometimes you've got a choir as well, so you can have, you know, 300 people
on stage at times, so it's big, yeah.
And they're looking at every movement you make, every bit of body language, every expression
to take their temperature, I suppose, from your lead.
I mean, what's been the key to your success in doing it at the level that you do?
First and foremost, it's, I guess, your musicality, your sense of having a vision for a piece
of music, because that's what the conductor has to bring, a vision that everyone buys
into and is willing to follow.
So it's very much that classic leader-follower kind of relationship with the orchestra.
But I think a lot of people think that it's about power, and it's not, really.
Power comes with the position, but that's not what it's about.
Like, a lot of people...
You see the maestro up the front waving their arms around and, like, you know, kind of dictating
how this is going to go to the obedient musicians who are following.
It's actually much more collaborative than that in terms of what's actually going on,
this kind of exchange of wills that's happening between the conductor and the musicians.
It's a frustrating job for musicians, and like any big group of people, there's a psychology
that you have to work out, and I think that's one of the strengths that I bring to it.
I'm always thinking about the people that I'm working with, and I'm trying to think about
the best way in which to guide them to an outcome whilst respecting them and involving
them in that process.
So, you know, I'm a collaborator, you know, by nature, and I'm trying to facilitate their
best performance the whole time.
I'm not trying to say, this is how it goes.
I'm like, what is the best outcome for this particular situation and this group of people?
So I'm really interested in that.
So, Ben, is that a shift in terms of conductors of the past would have been much more of a
dictatorship and stood out the front, and there would have been that hierarchical, I'm
the boss, and probably the reverse of what you're saying.
I'm fascinated by that because I know you've got a great passion for sport that I want
to get onto through this chat, and we've seen a massive shift as well in the world of sport
and the way coaches are much more collaborative as well.
When I played, you know, the coach was the boss.
You didn't give any feedback the other way.
You did what you were told, or you got, you know, put in your place pretty quickly.
That shift has been pretty profound.
Is that the same in your world?
So what's happened is the power has shifted from the maestro being the boss and being
able to fire people on the spot and that kind of stuff.
So that would have happened in the past, literally?
You're not pulling your weight, hop out of the orchestra.
It has happened, and often for no reason, just because people want to demonstrate their
And, you know, it's the idea of how do you get the power?
The best out of people, and I think there was a sense back in those days, we're talking
mid-20th century and, you know, before, that fear was actually the best driver of people,
which is just an anathema to me.
You know, I'm trying to fight against that all the time because I think people are much
more responsive in a relaxed state, and they're much more able to bring their best in that
But that's how I work.
So everyone's different.
But the big thing that's changed is the orchestras are much more.
They're self-determining now, so they are very responsible for who conducts them, for
So at the end of a week, they'll fill out their surveys and give an opinion about the
work of the visiting conductor, for example, or their regular conductor, and that determines
whether you come back.
So the power has shifted, and that's been a good thing because it's made conductors
change the way in which they communicate and interact with the orchestra players.
We had a very brief chat before we hit record, and you said something.
It reverberated in my mind to say that the people playing an instrument orchestra almost
feel like they're doing brain surgery.
I think to paraphrase what you said, they feel that pressure of wanting to get it right
for the expanded team.
Is that how it is for a lot of them?
Yeah, the expectation is huge at that level.
We're talking about people who have dedicated their entire lives, often from very young
age, to one thing.
And because it's a big team, everyone's relying on everybody.
And so you've got to think of an orchestra as kind of one thing.
It's like that's the goal, is to make it this one beautiful, in harmony machine of humanity.
Everyone's listening to each other.
They're all fitting in with each other, and some people are leading, some people know
when to stay out of the way and balance and let other things through.
And there's this whole kind of operational hierarchy within an orchestra as well.
I think in terms of the pressure, and yes, I think there have been studies done on that
where they say the pressure that people feel when they're playing, for example, a solo
in an orchestra is the same kind of pressure that a brain surgeon feels when they're operating
on somebody, which is, it's crazy when you think about it, because no one's going to
die in an orchestral context, but that's how they feel.
And so, you know, it's perform or die.
I mean, it's like that.
That's the mindset people come in with.
And I think that's the...
That's the same in sport.
You know, you've got to bring it when it counts, and that's in the concert.
So that's the magic and the terror of live music.
And that's, you know, we're not talking about amplified concerts.
This is just you and your instrument and the audience and your own expectations and the
group's expectations.
But in the world of team sport, if you have an off day in the team, it's pretty obvious,
you know, there's stats and there's data and most...
Athletes will know very, very quickly.
In fact, everyone does, if yet.
Is that the same in an orchestral sense that, you know, someone can have an off night?
Do you need a, you know, a refined ear to understand that, or would the player themselves
feel as though they had a bad night?
Oh, they'd know for sure.
And it depends on the instrument.
You know, the way the orchestra's structured is there's a whole lot of string players,
like violins, violas, cellos, and basses.
That's a big section.
You can kind of blend in as a group in that section, but if you're one of what we call
the principal players, so principal oboe, principal French horn, diabolical instrument
to play, small margin for error, everyone can hear if you've made a mistake.
Like, you've got a real sympathy for these people.
First trumpet, but, you know, even on violin, if you've got a solo, yes, it's obvious when
something's going wrong, and if you hear somebody mentally really struggling in a concert,
it's a terrible scenario, because that...
From a conductor's perspective, what can I do, A, to help in this situation and bring
them back, and you feel bad because you haven't brought out their best at that time as well.
So something's gone wrong.
It might not be your fault, but you're the leader.
You have to take responsibility as well.
Yeah, and in preparation for this, I, you know, read extensively your love of that collaborative
nature of large-scale music making.
There was one quote that was attributed to, I wanted to read back.
It's one of the few, this is your words, one of the few examples.
I have a large number of human beings cooperating in real time to achieve a very, very difficult
As a metaphor for what human beings can achieve, there's nothing like an orchestra.
I can hear the passion in those words.
Does that sort of sum up to you, the reason why you love getting out and trying to create
that sort of joy?
And see, you know, as human beings, we kind of want to collaborate, I think, by our nature.
We want to be part of something bigger.
The things we can achieve as a collective are much greater than the things we can achieve
And that's the truth with music.
So my daughter, we were talking about before we started, she's just started violin.
She's 10 years old.
She, you know, is doing her practice.
She did her first state music camp this year and got to play in an orchestra for the first
And so she hasn't really been that into the violin up to this point.
All of a sudden, she gets in the orchestra.
She says, Dad, you should hear it.
It's unbelievable.
I say, yeah, I know.
That's what I do.
She goes, no, you don't understand.
Like, it's really amazing.
And so, you know, it's that kind of feeling of the power of cooperation, you know, and
the orchestra, for all of its crazy kind of old world stigma and stereotypes, it's actually
still a very relevant institution.
I want to jump into the parenting thing for a moment.
Pick up on that conversation.
I love talking to leaders like you.
You know, a range of things.
But with parents, when your dad's one of the leading conductors around the world and you
pick up the violin and, you know, in the same in a football sense, I suppose, if your dad's
played and then you're running around in Auskick, there's an expectation.
Do you think she feels a little bit of that intuitively that, hang on, a few more people
are watching me than someone else?
It's still early days.
And you've got to be careful of that, don't you?
You know, because that's the last thing I want her to feel.
And the way that I think about music is that it's really part of a full education.
So it's one of the things.
And it's a shame that it seems to have been more peripheral in particularly primary school,
Like, you know, there are schools still out there.
But when I went to school, it was kind of like you did your music lessons in the school
time and there was a specialist music teacher.
That's changed now.
So you don't have specialist music teachers in primary schools anymore.
And so I think of it as kind of this tool to, I guess, stimulate her creativity or any
child's creativity.
I mean, that's how I feel about it.
I don't want her to feel any expectation being a conductor's daughter, but I guess
that's going to happen at some point.
So Ben, we see a lot of, you know, to use the term that the sort of tiger mom, you're
getting a violin in your hand and no matter what, there's six lessons a week and I'm going
to, you know, enforce that for you for the better good.
I think the intention's always great.
I mean, you can hear in your world that you just through curiosity, chopped and chained.
What's your advice?
because I think we all see now, as you said,
the benefit of creativity through music.
But do you need to drive a little bit
or do you just let the kids find their own path?
I don't think it's a bad thing to drive a little bit
because that's one of the things it teaches you,
like any discipline, is that importance of actually sticking at it.
And that's the thing about music.
The more you practice, the more fun it becomes.
The more fun it becomes, the more you practice.
So it's this kind of loop.
I feel like there is a limit.
I always say to Eva, you don't have to do a lot of practice.
You just have to do it every day.
It's like 10 minutes.
So you can't do this until you've done your practice,
and that's the deal.
And she kind of goes, oh, yeah, fair enough, and just does it.
Look, she may give it up.
She complains about learning piano.
She complains about playing netball on the weekend sometimes too,
but she still does it.
So it's just part of raising kids.
That's what I think anyway.
I love her coming back.
Dad, you don't understand how good an orchestra stands.
It's just genius, isn't it?
Can I ask you, for those that aren't regular listeners to classical music,
I'm going to put my hand up.
In preparation for this, I've been loving it
and listening to some of your work.
Is there one piece of music we all have heard of Beethoven's Fifth?
Is there one particular bit of music that sums up the genius
of what an orchestra does for you?
Oh, that's a really tough one, actually, Luke,
because there are so many amazing parts of the repertoire.
I mean, I guess the most impactful ones are the ones that are huge scale.
And actually, even most people would say they don't know much
about classical music, you know, but they do.
They hear it in ads on television.
They hear it in their computer games, in their movies.
The ones that really stick out for me are the huge scale works
that involve choir and orchestra.
So when you've got, we were talking before about the numbers
of people that are involved in classical music,
that you can be conducting at one time.
I recently conducted a piece by an Italian composer called Giuseppe Verdi.
And that's the other thing about, you know,
this kind of heritage of the orchestra.
That's Joseph Green in English translation.
You know what I mean?
But it sounds so kind of inaccessible in this, you know, Italian language.
But he wrote a requiem at the end of his life,
and he was primarily an opera composer.
And a requiem is meant to be a religious kind of work,
and a lot of the big composers have written,
you know, a kind of work like this.
And he wrote it in this very non-religious operatic kind of style.
And I conducted it for the first time this year,
Choir of 250 over in Christchurch in New Zealand,
one of the biggest projects we'd had since COVID, you know,
so it was a massive cathartic event anyway.
And that piece of music, if you want to just have your mind blown,
I mean, it's pretty long, but even one movement of it,
listen to the Dies Irae, the Day of Judgment of that particular requiem,
the Verdi Requiem.
And it will blow your mind.
It doesn't matter if you're into classical music or not,
it'll just completely blow your mind.
And there's, I could name a hundred pieces that are like that.
And is that the genius of when you get that amount of humans in a room together,
it creates an energy that recorded music can never, ever replicate, I suppose.
It's a completely different experience because you are witnessing,
and in the performance case, being a part of the creation of that work.
But if you're in the audience, you're also part of it.
Because the audience and the performers, that's a sacred relationship as well.
And you can feel that energy in a room.
Like when everybody has a reaction to the music together in a room,
the electricity that that creates, it's intangible.
I don't know how it works, but that's what it's all about.
And it's just, it's incredible the way it unites people like that.
Good luck being at the MCG with the Richmond Army, Ben,
and singing Tigerland and Richmond win another big final.
Well, it's a collective experience.
Being there, there's no substitute.
And we understood that when they took the crowds away.
And, you know, we were commentating games at the MCG with no one there.
And the lifeless feeling, it was bizarre.
And so I suppose it's given us this appreciation.
But you can't replicate that energy, you know, my team are the red, white, and blue.
But when it's Collingwood or Richmond or that old history at a ground,
that influences the players and the standard of play, no doubt.
Well, when you think about it, Ben, it's a collective experience.
It's a collective experience.
It's a collective experience.
It's a collective experience.
When you think about it, that's what it's all about, actually.
Like, what's the primary function of sport?
What's the primary function of the arts?
And you can mount a very strong argument that it is simply about bringing people together
and having a sense of belonging.
That's, you know, that's very possible that that's the main game here, actually.
And it's a great segue, Ben, to wanting to talk about where we've intersected a space we created
called Alita Sports.
And, you know, connecting in with you has been a great joy.
And we love that world of collaboration, bringing people together from unique backgrounds.
And the group that you're connected with, if you're happy to share, it fascinates me
because you've got Michael Voss, who I played against as one of the greatest players I've
ever seen play the game, a triple premiership captain of the Brisbane Lions, now coach of
Trent Robinson is a legend of the rugby league world and a revered coach of the Roosters
and had success everywhere.
People know as the Bondi vet, but a beautiful person, Chris, and incredibly smart.
Richard Opp, he's probably got the biggest marketing job in the world.
He looks after global brands for a business called AB InBev, which is Budweiser and the
biggest consumer brands in the world.
And Ben Northey coming together.
We love the idea of sharing and learning and collaborating together.
Can you tell us a bit about what that's been like for her?
It's been an amazing experience.
I've learned so much.
At the beginning, I was thinking, gee, I'm really the odd one out here, you know, coming
in from the arts.
I mean, it was good Chris was there as well, because he's sort of coming from that television
But I, because I had so much respect for all of these guys on this panel, and I was just
thinking, gee, I hope I can bring something worthwhile to this conversation.
As it turned out, they were very interested in the orchestra and how it worked, had a
lot of questions around the structure of it, my role.
And it made me...
It reinforced the idea that leadership, there's so much common ground across disciplines.
You know, we're all dealing with the same kinds of things.
And usually, it's just about people.
It's about our relationships with people.
It's about our relationships with ourselves, looking deep into how we are going about our
leading and how we can improve.
And that's been the beauty of this, is being able to have those discussions with those
guys, learning so much every time.
I mean, I just take...
I take pages of notes in every meeting that I reflect on later and look back on and think,
wow, that's a really great idea.
I wonder how I could apply that to the orchestra.
And just being challenged on things too, things that you've always done in a certain way.
And somebody sort of challenges, said, what about this?
Why don't you try this?
That's been really interesting.
And also, it's made me realize what values I admire in other people and which people,
who've helped me, and why do I kind of look back on with so much affection for those people
and so much gratitude because they kind of, you know, believed in me to the point where
I started believing in myself.
Really, that's kind of the one thing we've all got in common, I think.
We all had someone who believed in us at some point.
And I was going to ask you about that.
I love the fact people like you with a schedule that you've got and all those people.
And we really love the idea and as passionate about, you know, people listening.
And so, I'd like to get together and collaborate and learn and that accountability to show up
and say, is there a better way?
You know, can I learn and share, you know, particularly when you come from different
I love hearing that, you know, obviously, you know, private conversation, but, you know,
that world of a leader connect.
If you are interested, we are really passionate about sharing and expanding that space.
So, please, you don't have to be Ben Northey and doing what Ben's do to do the same thing
You've had great mentors along the journey in reading about it.
And you've made that path to go and study overseas and, you know, names that probably
don't mean enormous amount to me and I might even be able to pronounce it, Leif Segström.
Oh, Leif Segström, yeah.
That was close enough, close enough.
John Hopkins, I can get out.
But it sounds like you've had people that, as you just said before, have really seen
something in you.
Can you tell us about that?
Yeah, well, it was mainly John.
I mean, the idea of a saxophonist, you know, I was in my late 20s at this point.
So, I'd had a performing career.
I went back to university as a mature.
I was a mature age student to do my Bachelor of Music, which I dropped out of when I was
in first year back in the day and started working.
I started getting gigs in Melbourne.
I had this fantastic life of a performing musician playing in, as you say, a James Brown
So, were you done with study at that stage?
Did you see or did you always think you'd come back?
No, I didn't at all.
No, I kind of thought, no, I'll just be a professional musician.
I'll just work and do gigs.
And then the lifestyle, you know, we were working four or five nights a week and, you
know, I guess the first...
The fun had started to wear off a little bit.
Maybe I'd burn myself out having a bit too much fun.
So, I went back to the conservatorium and picked up where I left off.
And that was where I met my first conducting teacher, John Hopkins.
Now, I'm not one of these guys who's like, I have to be a conductor.
I have to be that guy standing up in front of the orchestra.
I didn't think that was possible from where I was and what I was doing.
I hadn't had a, you know, long career in orchestral music at all.
So, this amazing...
This amazing teacher, John Hopkins, who was an old man by this stage, he had just turned
up to set up a conducting program in fourth year, you know, kind of an elective that you
And he'd done everything in Australian music by this stage and he was an extraordinary
person to learn from.
He was interested in the power of music as a medium for social change and really big
picture thinking, you know, and also this power of interactions with people as the power of music.
The main sort of area of expertise as a conductor.
So, he ended up, you know, seeing something in me and encouraged me to continue my studies
and said, look, okay, you're playing catch up, I get it, but let's come and study with
I'm setting up a master's program here, it's, you know, two years, give it a go.
You're going to have to stop everything else that you're doing.
And I was still working at that point and I didn't have a family or anything.
So, I thought, oh, if I'm ever...
If I'm ever going to do it, now's the time.
How often do these opportunities come along?
And I said to him, I said, I just don't see how this is possible.
He said, you don't know what's possible.
He said, that's the beauty about it.
Nobody knows what's possible.
We're all just making it up as we go along.
There's no rules and that's the beauty of possibility.
You're just, the book's empty.
So, it was so inspiring and I remember just working really, really hard for that two years
and then I won this competition.
I won this competition and went overseas to study and, you know, spent six years learning
how to do it and then started work.
I mean, it's a really amazing kind of pathway.
Genuine sliding doors moment, that is, isn't it?
For someone to see that in you and then for you to have the ability and the dedication
to take that opportunity and then to go overseas.
You know, I read in research that when you are applying in Finland and I, you know, apologies
to Leif for butchering his name before.
That's all right.
That's all right.
But I'm told that you're just...
That's all right.
You passed the exam and you're asked to listen to some music and write it down.
I mean, was that something you felt comfortable with at that stage?
I did actually because I'd done so much work in music production.
So, I used to do a lot of work for advertising and in the recording studio and often people
would give you a piece of music and say, I need a backing track or something for this,
you know, and you'd have to make it and that involved you listening in micro detail and
kind of deconstructing the piece and, you know, putting it back together one line at
I knew how to do that.
And that was the thing.
I sort of realized more and more as I went through, all of my musical experiences were
exactly the kinds of things that I needed to be able to draw on and especially at a
time when orchestras are changing so much.
The kinds of concerts orchestras are doing now are so different than they were even 20
And so, my sort of diversity and all these crazy experiences all of a sudden became very,
very helpful at that point.
But yeah, I was surprised.
When I got into the Sibelius Academy and I kept being surprised, you know, I just kept
thinking, how is this happening?
You know, this is ridiculous.
And then at some point, you know, you start to believe.
And that's when you can really build on your skills because you believe that it's possible.
I mean, that's the thing about performance, isn't it?
You know, sport, anything, the belief, it's so often spoken about, but unless you've actually
felt it, it's really hard to explain.
It's hard to explain what it is, you know?
And does that, you know, it's a great point.
I think, you know, sports people and other will relate to that sense.
You know, I go back to what I was in.
Are you good enough to play?
And then you get a few games and then you look around and think, you know, I do belong
And then the opportunity is there to take it to the level that you possibly can.
Is there still nerves?
Do you get in front of the London Philharmonic Orchestra on a performance night?
I mean, I don't mean to say that.
I always believe.
But yeah, of course you go through ups and downs with that.
And belief comes and goes.
Confidence comes and goes.
The nerves are absolutely at the core of this business and actually controlling your state
before you walk out onto that stage as a conductor with this immense responsibility of guiding
these musicians through a performance.
That can be a crushing burden.
You have to be very mentally prepared for that scenario.
So I'm nervous every time, not to the point of like, you know, throwing up or anything
Like I'm sort of, I've got a routine.
I put myself as close as I can to in the zone as it works for me, at least.
And I try and be, you know, calm and stable out there for the musicians.
So, you know, that's the thing.
I feel the responsibility to them.
It's like I have to be as good as they are.
I have to be as good as they are at their job.
And then we can do something amazing, you know?
Beautifully said.
I read that you're a fan of visualisation and meditation and mindful.
Can you tell us about your practice?
Can you go a little bit micro there?
What sort of things do you do to achieve that?
I do a lot of visualisation.
I mean, it's funny, the way that we prepare as conductors is that we learn a piece of
music from the notes on a page, generally.
You know, you can access recordings and things, but that's not really the way you do it as
You're building up your own version.
I had a naive question.
This may embarrass me here, but as I was reading and watching and listening and in
preparation for this and looking at you reading music, is that universal?
So if you're reading a piece, it is.
So there won't be a German twist to it or a Spanish twist to it.
In Western music, so, you know, yes, the notation is universal.
That's the beauty of it because any musician can go to these countries that use that system
of notation, which has been built up over centuries now, and make music.
They don't have to speak the language.
They can just make music.
And conducting is like that, too.
Every conductor's different, but there is a framework that is universal.
So that means you can communicate through music without words anywhere.
And I'm sorry to interrupt your train of thought.
You're talking about what you do to get into that state, into that zone.
Yeah, so visualising.
So when I'm reading the score, you know, the goal is to build up a sound picture in your
mind of how you want the piece to go.
And that in itself is a visualisation.
It's sort of visualisation.
It's just a sonic visualisation.
So you can sit in a chair, close your eyes, and imagine a piece from start to finish.
And that's really powerful because not only are you thinking about the music and sort
of forming your interpretation of the piece, you're actually visualising how you want the
performance to go as well.
So that's one aspect of it.
But in the immediate, you know, standing side of stage and in the dressing room waiting
Obviously, there's breathing and that kind of thing.
But for me, it's the reinforcement of basic principles.
It's exactly like, you know, sport in that sense.
I've heard so many sports people talk about just going back to basics and simplifying
everything down to, for me, it's forget yourself.
Think about the music.
So take my ego away for that period of time when I'm out there.
You know, I can put it back on when I'm finished.
Honestly, for that time, it's just take away everything else and focus on what your job
That's the music at that point in time.
And then the music becomes everything.
So when it's all working, that's how I feel.
It doesn't work all the time.
And does that help you in life as well, having that capacity?
I want to ask you about meditation as well, but I suppose that ability to be able to compartmentalise
and, you know, in other areas of your life, have you found?
I'm not so good at that.
Yeah, I feel like I use up a lot of my discipline.
So, yeah, I feel like, you know, if I come back after, you know, three weeks on the road
or something, or, I mean, at the moment, I've just done 12 weeks because, you know, after
the pandemic's not over, but after the lockdowns, the arts organisations are making up for lost
So it's just been flat chat.
So I am usually just really burned out at the end of those long stints.
I feel like I haven't managed that very well in my life.
So it's, or it's been, you know, too, too kind of high octane in terms of the approach
to taking all the work.
And that's the thing when you're a freelancer, you think, oh, well, if I'm free, I'll say
yes, you know, and I love the work so much, but I have to get better at actually managing
my time and making sure that I'm not neglecting my family, making sure that I'm doing good
work, making sure I've got time to prepare.
Recover all that stuff.
So, yeah, I would say I am a work in progress in that area, Luke.
I think we all are, Ben, aren't we?
It's that I find that same challenge, isn't it?
You want to achieve enough and support your family enough by achieving and that's, you
know, without that, we really aren't able to do anything, but at the same time, not
miss the point of life, do you?
And I always talk of, you know, that parenting guilt that we, I've always felt, you know,
as a father of four and, you know, even now, travel through, being on the road through
winter and you miss out on certain things, it's that sweet spot you're always searching
I'm not sure we ever exactly find it, but perhaps even just in the consciousness of
trying to do it, we may be at least ahead of the game in that sense that you are thinking
You know what I have learned from it all is being present in whatever moment you're in.
That's the one thing, because the music happens just in real time.
It's like, that's where it is.
It's then and, you know, as a leader thinking ahead a bit, but actually it's all happening
And you're fully aware and you're in this heightened state of awareness, actually, as
a performer, because of all the nerves and the adrenaline that's flying through your
body and the alertness levels and all this kind of stuff.
When I'm with my kids and Joe, my wife, you know, I try and bring that same level of presence
and just like, okay, I'm just going to be here now and concentrate on my kids.
And so I have learned that.
That's one thing that I'll say.
That's a great gift to share.
That's a great gift to share, because, you know, you can be around, but not be there,
And so the guilt is I'm away, but then a lot of people are there and not there as well.
I have to touch on the sporting connection to the family.
Uncle John, he's a legend of the game that I loved and was lucky enough to play.
He's a two-time premiership player in the brilliant Richmond sides, 1967 and 69, and
then coached over 300 games.
Does your love of sort of Richmond come through Uncle John Northey or?
We were always Tigers growing up because of the premiership.
So I was born in 70.
So I missed those flags.
But dad is, his name's Bob.
He's John's older brother.
And he taught him how to kick and they were brought up in Darren Allum in the Western
And dad was a very fine footballer as well, but ended up being an academic.
And so he went to uni.
Johnny famously went on to play for the Tigers.
And I was just fascinated by his journey, you know, because I was a teenager when he
got to Melbourne.
But he'd been coaching in Ballarat before.
Before that, he was coaching country league, Victorian country side.
I think he was coach of that team initially.
Redan back in the day in Ballarat league, three premierships in a row.
He was captain coach.
So he was still playing.
And his body was stuffed and, you know, he was still out there, you know, yelling at
people and leading by example.
And then, yeah, he got that initially job at Sydney, then Melbourne, then famously Richmond,
which I was wrapped about.
I was like, you beauty.
And, you know, the 95, um, I think it was, well, it was a qualifying final.
Probably the final it was.
Tough day at that one.
The game before that against the Bombers.
That was, that was something where I went, okay, well, there's a sleeping giant here
that I didn't know about really.
And that was, you know, Richmond won in 80, but I was sort of a bit too young to really
experience that fully.
But I remember thinking, wow, there's just a beast ready to wake up here and didn't wake
up until 2017, but it got there in the end.
But no, I learned a lot from him.
Seeing him work, hearing him talk about his role, um, and just observing his journey,
the ups and downs of that journey.
That was, you know, quite brutal in the end, you know, he got fired from Brisbane and I
just remember thinking, and, and after the 88 grand final where Hawthorne belted the
demons, I know he came around the next day and he just didn't speak, you know, he was
just sitting at the table, just destroyed, you know?
And I just remember thinking, oh my God, look at what this does to you, you know, or can
It's a, it's a brutal role.
And, and maybe even more so the scrutiny's, uh, become so extreme and, you know, it's
you're a hero to zero, isn't it?
It's, it's incredible.
Is he a crossover into the music and arts world?
Is there, is that shared in the family?
Well, dad, dad plays the guitar and he was sort of into, um, acting a bit, I guess, because
he'd gone to uni and done, done a bit of that there.
And, um, but Johnny, not so much.
So, you know, he's more into sport and business and that kind of thing.
But I mean, it's been interesting to talk to him about people management and that was
the one thing he was good at was bringing out things that people didn't know they had
I think that was probably his greatest strength, that constant underdog thing that he had, especially
with Melbourne, um, in the eighties and getting people to achieve things they didn't think
they were capable of achieving, you know, and that I thought I can really use in, in
What a gift that is.
And you hear all those that played under the great sweeper norther, your uncle, uh, the
He had with his property ahead of his time, really.
And we see a lot of the great coaches now so much more about the whole person, but from,
from what you hear, uh, his players love playing, uh, for him.
And it's, I love hearing that shared sort of, um, you know, crossover in, in learning.
Uh, Ben, we've been talking, you know, about what great leadership looks like in different
We're becoming a bit obsessed with it.
And I love hearing from your world, a world that, you know, isn't, isn't from mine and
these dimensions of great leaders, as you said, learning people management from your
uncle in the sporting world.
But we think all the leaders.
Have a sense of self-leadership that they start there and understand, does that resonate
Um, what, what would self-leadership mean to you?
Uh, for me, I think it's, it's, uh, turning up, turning up ready for, for work.
I mean, that, that is such a big role for me.
If you're a leader, you have to have a vision in order for people to follow you.
Like it's, it's so simple.
But sometimes, you know, if you're really flat out and you haven't done the work, you
can turn up and you're a bit underdone and you're sort of making it up as you go.
People just notice straight away.
So as a conductor on the podium, it's kind of like, you know, there's this x-ray machine,
um, that people can just strip away any pretense and they can see who you really are and where
So there's no point trying to pretend that you're anybody else.
So for me, turning up ready, that, that would be the first thing.
I guess the other thing is what difference are you making, you know, and, and I try and
do things, um, in my working life that I, that are, that are mirrored by my values.
And, and, you know, John Hopkins, this first teacher we talked about, he was big on that.
He was like, you know, think about the power of music as something bigger than just, you
know, you up there conducting the orchestra to a bunch of paying customers.
What, what can it do as a tool, as a medium?
And so, you know, I'm often reflecting on my year, like I get to the end of the year
and I look back and I go, well, how, what did I do?
What did I achieve this year?
And where are those areas that I think are the real value areas?
You know, not the great experiences of, you know, what's the best concert, but actually
what difference did you make for other people?
And, and I reckon that's probably self-leadership to me.
You know, where, where are you making the difference?
And music has unlimited potential in that area, uh, just in so many different ways.
And actually the orchestras are doing really good work in that area too.
What a brilliant answer, Ben, you know, coming back and listening to you and thinking of
all the, the, the challenges the world currently, you know,
faces and, you know, we've still got wars going on in 2022 and what's happening over
in that part of the world is incredibly upsetting, of course, in Ukraine.
And, and then you think of what you do with the universal language of music, being able
to go and bring teams of people together and show that collaboration and connection doesn't
have different, uh, you know, it doesn't, uh, require borders.
You can actually share with anyone and, you know, it feels like, you know, do you sort
of think about it, that altruistic level in some ways that you're an example to what great
collaboration is?
I'd like to think so.
Every now and again, you feel like, you know, some major world event happens, you think,
well, what can I do, you know, as a musician, how ready, you know, what a peripheral kind
of irrelevant activity, um, this is, but actually then you realize, well, it's, it's what you
decide to do with it.
It's the tool that you have, right?
So our expertise, whatever it is in our lives, that becomes the way that you can, uh, influence
others, make a difference, improve the experience of life for people.
And I just think in terms of, yeah, what, what you're talking about in, um, listening
to and cooperating, collaborating, but it's actually, um, it's understanding other, other
people, their perspectives, including people in the experience of an orchestra is a powerful
gift that you can give to people.
It can change people's lives.
We've got a completely new, um, generation of musicians coming through now that are from
Diverse backgrounds.
They're enriching the culture of the organizations that they're joining, um, bringing these new
ideas and perspectives.
Uh, we're able to connect with people in different ways now than that the orchestras never did
You know, it was always seen as a sort of a high level elitist activity.
It sort of still is that, but it's not only that it's much more than that.
And it's much more, um, relevant and accessible to more people now, which I'm really proud
It's brilliant, Ben.
We're seeing leaders are really conscious of how they.
Positively impact other people every day in their environment, listening to you already
talking about your humility and turning up for the musicians and taking your ego away
when you stand up there and conduct an orchestra.
I mean, clearly that's something you think about regularly.
Is that, is that how you think about daily having that positive impact on people?
I hope it's the right thing to do.
Like I'm not convinced that it's, you know, I, why do you say that?
Well, only because, um, there's a time actually to just be strong and, and,
and stand there and go, no, no, no, this is what we're doing.
And have you got that in you?
I, I, it's, it's sort of subtle for me.
Um, so it's, it's there, but it's sort of like a, um, what would I say?
It's a insistence, a quiet insistence rather than a throw your, you know, the toys out
of the cot kind of thing.
Um, and every lead is different and I can probably work on that.
Actually, I've seen, I've observed recently, even other leaders just being way more direct.
And I think actually that's probably the right thing to do.
That's, that's going to save a lot of time and just get straight to the point.
We've talked about that actually, um, a little bit in, in the leader group as well.
Um, but yeah, I, I sort of, I like that because it works for me and, and it really comes down
to respecting others and, and, um, understanding that they, they want to feel empowered as
They want to have their chance to be part of this creative process.
They don't want to just be drones who are sitting there, you know, taking orders.
They want to feel like a leader as well.
All, everyone wants that, wants that sense.
So if you can create an environment where everyone feels like they can contribute, wow,
you know, that's when things can really spark.
And I love your language, man, because it's what we really see is this big shift is that
you don't need the title.
You don't have to be the conductor, you know, again, not knowing your world, but the person
who turns up, plays and really has that positive energy to the person that supports them to
play a little bit better.
Or it's just kind in the way.
It's the way they approach it.
I mean, you can genuinely make significant impact with small gestures, can't you?
And you can model that behavior.
I think that's the biggest thing.
It's, and, and culture of, of these big groups, because they've got a massive negative bias.
So the psychology of the large groups of people is negative.
That's just how it is.
In all the large groups, do you mean?
Or in orchestras in particular?
Well, I think orchestras in particular, because it's a frustrating job as an individual, you
feel powerless, you know?
And, and so you're relying so much on the people.
You're relying so much on the conductor to set the culture, set the tone and, you know,
I've, I've felt, I've found that that's a big part of the job actually is, is, and culture.
I mean, that's so important in every organization, you know, is this a good working environment?
Are we creating an atmosphere where we can really be our best and contribute and, and
bring out the best in others and respect other people, all that kind of stuff.
And also acknowledge that there is an expectation that we bring in if it's not being met, address
So, you know, there's all these things around organisational culture, you just got to keep
It doesn't happen automatically.
And all the research says, I mean, the amount of time and effort and money and resources
you put into improving culture, you get returned back exponentially, almost more than any other
thing you can do in any business or in the world of arts or social venture or whatever
But it's often the thing people overlook because you'd rather put another person on sales or
sell another ticket.
But we know sustainable success comes from.
Clearly what you're doing, which is building great culture and continue, we've heard you
talk a lot about vision and it's, it's the next dimension I want to ask you about.
So Lee's really conscious about how they create and share their vision.
It sounds like you've got a pretty clear formula on that.
Can you share that with us?
Well, I've got ideas around the ultimate performance of a piece, you know, when I, when I come
out onto the podium, but it never works out that way, you know, so, so it doesn't like
my vision can be.
Very strong, but it's always got built in flexibility and that's what I'm talking about
in, in it's collaborative.
It's not a power thing.
It's not like, this is what we're going to do.
I can say that at the beginning of a week and that's great.
That makes everyone feel like, okay, good.
This person's got a clear plan.
Can I understand that for a second, man?
Sorry to jump in again, but I'm trying to, so you've got the vision for the, for the
piece and you're conducting them in the way that you are, but a certain section suddenly,
you know, gets catches fire.
For want of a better term, you think, Hey, that sounds better.
And I can let that go more than I initially planned.
Is that the sort of living, breathing?
You've worked it out.
So, so that's the thing you let it, you know what it is?
You've got to know when to help.
And that means lead in this point and know when to get out of the way and let them, let
So that's, that's the, the balancing act that's going on there.
And so, you know, you might hear something, you might hear a player play something that
you really like and it's different than how you thought about it and it's great.
And you just, what are you going to do?
You get to get out of the way, let, let that magic happen.
Um, and it's different also depending on where you are, what orchestra you're working with,
that particular group dynamic, what their strengths and weaknesses are, the hall you're
in, different acoustic sounds, the occasion, uh, you know, energy levels of the group,
I mean, there's so many variables around this, uh, that you have to be ready to, you know,
to respond as well as lead.
You know, that's what I've learned.
It's, you've got to be so alert to be able to respond in the moment.
I'm fascinated by it.
I find it so, so your, would you have a good read if you go over to London or, you know,
I mentioned in the intro, the, the international space, have you, have you got a good idea
who the French horn player is and the, is it to that level of detail or on the night
are you getting surprised by, hey, someone's doing something that you didn't believe in?
Oh, that, that happens, that spontaneity happens in performances, but it's more
the rehearsal process because that's when the conductor really does their work.
It's, it's away from the performance space.
It's, it's the working the orchestra out, especially a new orchestra.
So one of the teachers in Finland, um, he said, know who the Dave, the divas are in
So if there's somebody who you really need to be aware of, find out early, get there.
Um, and so, you know, you, you were, and that's.
Part of the working with the personalities as well, but also, um, celebrating what they
can bring as, as individual leaders in, within the orchestra itself.
There's, there's all of that hierarchy going on as well.
I heard you talk about curiosity a lot.
And as, as a kid, just following curiosity into different instruments, we see leaders
now really curiosity is their launching pad for then how they learn and continue to develop.
Can you share with us what, what curiosity means for you?
I, I was lucky that.
Um, particularly mum, cause she was the sort of the musical one in the family, she allowed
So she, when I was, you know, playing the violin at, at primary school, piano, which
I hated in primary school.
Um, and I, I think it was in grade two and I said, I want to learn the trumpet, you know,
and I, I don't know if my kids said that to me, I'd probably say, yeah, sure.
But deep down, I'd be thinking, oh, is this the right thing?
Like, shouldn't I make them stick out one instrument for longer?
And she was like, yeah, no worries.
I was like, I'm not going to play.
I'm not going to play the violin anymore.
So I went and played trumpet for four years and then grade six, I want to learn the flute
I'll get your flute and, you know, ordered a flute and, and off I went in and then it
was, I want to learn the saxophone.
And so there was this constant permission to be curious as, as a kid.
And I think, um, you know, that, that taught me a great lesson because it was like, well,
I, you know, this isn't a bad thing to be sort of moving on to the next thing all the
time, to be fair.
When I got to the saxophone.
I really zoomed in on that and, um, that became my thing.
Uh, but you know, that's at the root of development and, and has to be rewarded.
And, and actually, you know, the things that we've spoken about in that group, often I've
been struck by the curiosity of all of those high level leaders in their roles.
That's actually probably the one thing that they've got in common there.
They're constantly looking for the next way to learn and progress and develop.
And that's curiosity.
It's at the base of everything, isn't it?
It's all learning, you know, that's what you want to teach your kids to be curious.
It's all, it's better than teaching them anything concrete facts, figures, anything like that.
If you can instill a sense of curiosity in a young mind, job done.
What a brilliant, uh, summation of, uh, you know, it's inspiring to hear you to, to sum
it up in that, in that particular way.
I mean, communicating with clarity is something that we see leaders are really understand
their communications strategy.
And, and yours is so unique again, isn't it?
Because it's not spoken word when you're performing and, and then also, I suppose, you know, you,
you're incredibly articulate as well and trying to expand your space and bring more people
to, I suppose that's part of it.
Can you explain how you've gone about your communication?
I, um, had some really great models here.
There's, there've been some great communicators in music.
You know, we're talking about, um, there's an older American conductor who, who passed
away decades ago, Leonard Bernstein, right?
And he might be familiar.
He wrote West Side Story.
He's a musical theatre expert like you, Luke, you know, West Side Story.
I conceded that, uh, I married a, uh, musical theatre performer back and, uh, was pretending
in the early phase of our relationship that I was a very much, uh, an attender of, uh,
musical theatre, but got found out pretty quickly, but, uh.
No, no, but he was a great communicator and educator and he talked about music a lot.
And this is funny because music doesn't really need to be spoken about.
It can just be experienced.
And everyone experiences it differently.
And it's, there's no right or wrong way to experience music, but it is interesting as,
um, a way to learn how to appreciate it more to hear someone talk about it.
So, um, you know, I've done a lot of education concerts for school kids and all kinds of,
even adults as well, where we unpack a piece of music and talk about how it, how it's built
and possible meanings behind it.
What's a composer trying to say, uh, through this piece of music.
And yeah, I, I've enjoyed that aspect of it.
And I do, as you could probably tell from this, I've enjoyed it.
In this podcast, enjoy talking.
So I, I now incorporate that into the beginning of my weeks, you know, cause I've realized
the orchestras appreciate that as well.
So take my five to 10 minutes at the first rehearsal, just to talk about what I want
to achieve out of the week and what I think, what our goals are and our mission and why
this is an important week reset everybody's, you know, expectations and possible prejudices
against a project or something.
And, you know, explain why it's important.
Get everybody buying into that first and then get into the music after that.
And you don't have to talk so much.
So yeah, it's, it's interesting, but the conducting of course is a, a nonverbal art form.
So in the concert, you're not speaking, uh, it's all gestural and body language, facial
expressions, and you have to communicate everything with those tools.
So that is a big challenge.
And is that something that just evolves as well?
Did you, is it a learned skill in, in, in, and is it, is there a certain cues that all
I mean, or is it?
Well, there are, there are musical cues to invite someone to play at the right time because
often they don't play for ages and then suddenly they've got to come in with an entry and you
can, you can, I call it an invitation rather than a cue.
Like it's not point and say now, you know, it's like it makes a magic.
Can't wait to hear this.
Um, and then there are other players you learn very quickly.
Never look at them.
They, they, they, they perform worse.
When you look at them and create that expectation.
And so I've worked out there are, you know, not many, but there are some players that
you're better off just leaving alone, um, and, and doing their own thing.
And understand that they will be watching along anyway.
And, and yeah, they'll know, they'll know what to do.
And they're in their own world and they're, they're, they're better like that.
And they're, they're going to perform better.
Particularly we're talking about French horn solos.
Like often it's them who are, who are just like, no, no, no, I don't need any distractions.
I just need to be in the zone here in my own little world to make.
Um, but you know, some players enjoy a smile.
Um, it, it all depends on the, the musician, but also the music.
So you're sort of trying to visually paint the emotions of the music in your face and
That's really interesting.
I know I'll keep going back to the sporting analogies, which, because they're so profound
for me and what you do and the way coaching has evolved in the, you know, in the past,
it was, this is the way, you know, it's done.
And if you're not capable, then you're out.
And you're weak and you're, and it was really left a lot of people who just had different
as you know, needs of how they needed to be coached.
It just was so unproductive.
You look back and you think the sophistication now to understand that, you know, people respond
That's just the way it works.
And so to hear that in, in the orchestral sense as well as.
Don't you reckon that's also the expectation that the leaders felt?
In fairness to them, I agree.
They thought that was the job.
It's, it's really interesting.
It's a good point.
It's a good point.
And I reckon I'm a little, you know, you're trying to apply 2022 logic to 20, it's never
I think probably spawned a generation like you though, who probably looked and thought
certainly did in, in sport from my view.
They went, I think there's a better way.
There's a, there's a better way.
I think there's a healthier way.
We'll achieve more success.
So it's, it's a profound how it's happened in, in our time.
Collaboration is your world.
And we see collaboration now for leaders as being something they really value.
and clearly you don't get to do anything without collaboration, but can you, can you
describe what it means to you?
I, I, I love that part of the job.
And for me doing the different kinds of, um, combinations of genre.
So you'll have the orchestra and, uh, you know, a comedian, or you'll have an orchestra
and a rock band or, um, artists from different areas, non-classical areas, often a theater
thing, or, you know, just, there's so many different kinds of, um, uh, areas of music.
That orchestras are reaching into now and reaching a much wider audience through that
And that's the, that's the bringing of two worlds.
Uh, and, and that conductor becomes the kind of person who's the translator, you know,
between these two worlds.
And, uh, I love that because that's the understanding.
And often when people get, um, to the point where they've got a concert with an orchestra,
if they're, you know, a pop singer or somebody, somebody who doesn't work with orchestras
all the time, that's like a serious high point of their career.
Like I'm here with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra, I'm about to perform with them
and they are terrified most of the time.
And that's another part of my job is to kind of say, no, no, it's not this big scary thing,
you know, well it can be, but it doesn't have to be.
And so let's find what we've got in common here and let me be that conduit to, to take
some of that heat off how you're feeling and it's going to be fine, you know, don't worry
And so I, I really enjoy that role, I gotta say.
I, I just, I love bringing people in.
I love bringing these, these, um, incongruous kind of worlds of, of different music together.
And I mentioned that in, you know, you've worked with Ben Folds and Nick Cave and James
Morris and Archie Roach and the list goes on and on and on and on and other classical,
uh, legends of music.
Is that been one of your real passions around, you know, bringing that sort of those combining
I think it's just been a product of my background because I have played in very many different
kinds of musical groups.
I mean, the Nick Cave, Warren Ellis one was very interesting.
Um, Warren Ellis, it turns out it's from Ballarat, same as me.
And we had the same, uh, flute teacher when we were kids, which we didn't know.
And, and, you know, Warren's like, you know, mega rock star and, uh, he and Nick have got
into composing music for films and they came and worked with the MSO the first time they'd
ever worked with an orchestra and, and these are two legendary world musicians.
And it was all of a sudden, like they were little kids again, you know, like with the
They were just like, whoa, this is a world we don't understand.
And, um, you know, that was such a special collaboration because it showed to me that
they had started their lives as, as, um, rock musicians in bands.
They've gone on this amazing global journey, evolving their musicality and now they're
writing for films and now they're absolutely comfortable being celebrated with an orchestra,
playing their music.
Like that journey there, that, that to me is, is just, well, that's how open-minded
the musical world is now.
And, and that would very rarely have happened, um, in decades gone by.
So I, I just think that's a fantastic development, the, the open-mindedness and the fact that
you can have these, these, you know, diverse experiences musically.
My mind's going, uh, Ben, to, to, to, if I'm driving in the car with Ben Northey or I'm,
I'm at home, what are, what are you listening to?
And how, how diverse?
I mean, is it, is it mostly classical or is it?
No, no, God, no, no, very rare.
I mean, that's, that's kind of work for me.
So, um, yeah, ABC Classic is a great radio station and I do listen to it every now and
again, but I'm, I'm, I'm in a different listening space.
I'm analyzing, you know, I'm working.
So if you're listening to an orchestra play, your mind's.
I'm constantly, I'm, I'm on the podium.
I'm on the, I'm, oh, they could have done this or, you know, why aren't they?
And, and, oh, that was really good.
Like, you know, you can learn a lot from listening.
I don't mean to say I never listen, but, um, yeah, it's, it's not classical music.
The kids are dominating the air, the airwaves at our house all the time.
So there's heaps of music that I'm discovering for the first time through them.
But no, it's a wide palette, a lot of jazz.
Um, I've, I've gotten in recently to, uh, I've been doing a spot on ABC Melbourne, um,
afternoons, which we call Calm the Farm.
And it's like little two, three minutes.
Snippets of music just to give everyone a chance to actually recenter their day and
go, okay, just let's take a breather for a second and recalibrate and just listen.
Just that's all just focus on one thing.
People have got so much out of it.
We did it during the lockdowns and it was so popular.
They've just kept it going.
And, um, I've actually discovered a whole genre of music called contemporary classical,
And it's often piano based, very meditative, minimal, not kind of new agey at all, but,
but just beautiful.
Beautiful and really relaxing and, and, um, sort of affirming to listen to.
And, and so I've actually started using that quite a lot now.
Um, just in the middle of the day, just go, okay, I'm just going to, it's like a meditation,
I guess, but it's like three minutes of just listen to music.
That's a meditation as it turns out.
It's funny that I, I consider myself not musical in any way, but there is not a moment in the
car and that's something he's playing constantly.
And so you are really, and you, and you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you,
you can appreciate everything and, you know, and through your kids, you suddenly discover
this whole, you know, um, you know, there's a fair bit of rap going on this morning before
I've got, I've got this, uh, band called Tokyo Machine that, um, cause Leo, my eight
year old son, he's massively into video games.
So it's disturbing.
We went to PAX on the weekend and this big convention.
What a phenomenon that is.
Hundreds of thousands at the convention center in Melbourne.
It's the biggest convention by a factor of about two, I think.
So, so, you know, and music.
Music is huge in this, right?
So video games and music, it's like film, but video games is a bigger industry than
It's amazing what's happened there.
But anyway, he's listening to this band, Tokyo Machine and it's all computer game music.
And yeah, it's all computer game music and like remixed and all this kind of stuff.
And I'm listening to it going, wow, that's like nothing I've ever heard before.
And you can appreciate it in that sense.
Now good music's good music.
That's the thing.
It doesn't matter what genre it is.
It's hard to do it well.
And when you hear it done well, it doesn't matter if it's a three minute pop song or
a 50 minute symphony, you know, there you can appreciate the artistry in each of those
Ben, I've got so many more questions, but in the interest of time, there's two final
questions that I've been asking all the ladies.
I've had a great privilege to sit down alongside and learn from, as I have from you incredibly
today, who has been the greatest leader in your life?
You know, I'd have to say the, one of the teachers at the Sibelius Academy is a guy
called Jorma Panola, and he is considered to be the world's greatest conducting teacher,
And he, um, is in his nineties now still going around the world, giving masterclasses to
groups of conductors.
He's dedicated, uh, the second half of his life to this teaching role.
And he found you, didn't you?
You won the prize in.
I first met him in 2001, where he was the main teacher of this.
Um, symphony, Australia, young conductor of the year competition.
And that wasn't just a competition.
That was a 10 week development program that culminated in a competition that I unexpectedly
won much to the horror of some of the other participants who'd been doing it for years.
Um, but that led me to the Sibelius Academy and he was there as well, even though he wasn't
the main teacher, I still worked with him and finished my studies with him at the Stockholm
Royal College of Music.
It was like learning from Yoda, you know, like this is the level we're talking about, like
Um, teaching and, and it was from him that it was that forget yourself only music.
Um, he was an extraordinary person in the way that he taught.
He allowed everybody to be themselves.
He brought out the strengths of everybody.
Uh, he didn't have a one size fits all approach.
All of his students are very different than each other, but the big thing he did was he
set up a structure of teaching that has endured.
And that was the thing that struck me.
I thought, wow, the great leaders, they actually leave a legacy that remains.
And so he set up a new way of teaching conducting, which was video analysis and people never
thought about it before.
And, you know, he set up like three cameras and did all of his teaching in the video room,
not while the conductors were in front of the orchestra, which is generally how teachers
had done it up to that point, or just let people, you know, sink and swim, um, sink
or swim, work it out on the job.
So I really admire the fact that he was able to reinvent conductor training globally, but
also what he gave me personally, which was just.
You know, again, like John Hopkins, he, he made me, um, believe that I could do it.
And at the end, I'll never forget after I did all this work with him, you know, for
five years or something, I worked with him and I saw a lot of him and, and at the end,
he just looked at me, he said, you're welcome.
And it was really so moving to, to have that, you're done, you're ready.
You know, that's where I started my career.
What a great story.
Did he stay in touch and follow you?
Would he, would he drop in if you're.
If it, cause he's in Finland, not really.
And I think that was also part of his, that was, you're welcome.
It's time for you to go out on your own now.
I've got, I've got the next.
And so, you know, I, I keep in touch with him, send him postcards and, and, um, you
know, email and he'll send a reply every now and again.
And, but, uh, you know, it was really that sort of period of time was my time with him.
It's other people.
It's time with him.
It's really amazing.
In the, uh, spirit of collaboration, Ben, we, we, uh, obsessed with, uh, what great
collaboration looks like and including what you're doing with the Alita Connect group
we mentioned and collaborating, bringing people together to share.
Is there, is there anyone in the world?
I mean, that, you know, or maybe even historically, if you could come back and, and, um, you know,
get Mozart back or, uh, you know, if you could collaborate with anyone on any project
and anything, is there someone that, that might spring to mind?
Oh, there's so many people you'd love to reanimate.
I mean, there's so many questions I'd have for some of these bloody composers that you
work with because, you know, they write this stuff down and you've got to work it out and
you can't call them up and ask questions and everyone's got a different idea.
I think, you know, this is a little bit, um, in my area and I'm sure there's more interesting
people out there that I could think of, but, but actually asking Ludwig van Beethoven some
Some questions at a dinner party would be very appealing because he was somebody who
incorporated politics into his music.
He was one of the first people really to do that.
And the meaning behind what he was writing about, he sort of covers more spiritual terrain
than any other composer.
And, and people talk about Beethoven and I don't know what people's, um, images when
they hear that name, you know, of this grumpy old composer with gray hair and everything.
But he just had this amazing humanity in him as well.
But he was using music for something bigger than what it was.
So he was trying to send a message in his symphonies.
So Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is about, uh, rebellion.
It's about resistance.
It's about not, you know, putting up with, um, at that point it was the, the, um, Napoleonic
Empire and, um, sweeping through Europe at that time.
You know, there's always these subtexts to music.
Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, the Ode to Joy, the Choral Symphony.
That's about borderless worlds.
That's about one, you know, one planet, everybody being united through music.
So it's that kind of level.
I reckon that, you know, it's a great model to, to look back on.
I'd love to ask him more about that.
Was it controversial at the time?
The politics did that.
Did he create some enemies for him?
He had to be very careful.
So he was in Vienna at that time when he wrote the Fifth Symphony and that was a police state
Um, and he was very subversive and, uh, he had to be very careful.
He did, he did get into trouble every now and again, but you know, there's composers
through history have done that.
Some of the Russian composers, Shostakovich in the 20th century, uh, had his music cancelled
by the regime, um, over there, Stalin.
Um, so, you know, the musicians have been used.
They've been using their music in all of these ways for centuries, you know, it's been going
And was Beethoven as appreciated at the time?
Was he, was he as massive as, as he should have been in his life?
Yeah, he, he was one of, he was one of the guys who actually was revered when he was
Now, many of them weren't.
So, you know, Mozart was, you know, famously died at 34 and nobody celebrated his passing
and it was only later.
Cause back in those days, you, you didn't re-perform music of people.
They would write it for a certain thing and you just do it and then it was done.
And it was only in the 19th century.
People look back on, we're getting onto another podcast here.
People would look back on it and go, you know what?
We should play that music again.
And that's when the understanding came.
Now we're probably overbalanced too far where we don't play enough new music.
You know, we need to get back to that.
It's brilliant, Ben.
As I said, I, I keep, uh, having questions.
It's a space that I'm, uh, I'm fascinated about and I'm really grateful that you've
taken the time and explain the genius of your world.
It's a, it's a great.
Um, feel really grateful that you were able to take the time.
No, no worries, Luke.
Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy, produced by Matt Dwyer with audio production
by Darcy Thompson.
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