Behind The Politics Peter Dutton On Family Leadership And Australias Challenges

I think the best leaders we've had in our country, a Bob Hawke or a Keating or a Howard,

they're not tortured in their language and they know what they believe in and they're

willing to fight for it.

And sometimes you can get yourself in trouble because it's not filtered or there's a full

stop instead of a comma, so the qualification in the sentence is not included in the grab

on the news.

And sometimes, you know, I listen to the PM at the moment and I think he's trying to

please everyone on the issue and you've got to stand up for what you believe in and you're

not going to please everyone.

And if you're trying to please everyone, then generally it means you haven't arrived at

the right outcome.

So I think decomplicate it and don't forget where you've come from and keep your feet

on the ground.

I think they're always good lessons.

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Peter Dutton is hoping to be the next Prime Minister of Australia.

And on the Empowering Leaders podcast, we aim to tell great leadership stories.

We have invited the current Prime Minister of Australia, Peter Dutton.

current Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, and hope to have him on the podcast as well soon.

Peter, I first met you around 12 years ago, and we share a great mutual friend,

Geoffrey Thomas, who we were just talking about before we hit record. And over the last 10 years,

I've had the great pleasure of meeting Kiralee and your family. And declaring this interview,

I consider you a friend. And I think when people ask me about Peter Dutton, the words I use is

the most misrepresented person in public life that I've ever met. In a short space of time,

you're a great chance to be the next Prime Minister of Australia. I thought I'd start with,

in your own words, what's Peter Dutton really like?

Well, Darce, great to be with you. Thank you, mate. And thanks for your leadership. But

look, I think people can get to know you through longer form interviews. And

instead of just the soundbites on a package, you know, TV of a night time in the news,

and as the campaign goes on, I hope people can see more of my story and who I am and my

background. And people can make their own judgments instead of being defined by your

opponents or those who have an axe to grind. So I'm a pretty open book. I'm not too complicated

in that sense. I'm just happy to be open and honest about my values, what I stand for. And

that's the basis on which I make decisions. And people, as I say, can draw a positive or

negative conclusion out of that.

I don't sort of, I've never gone into politics to crave that popularity or that recognition.

It's just, that's not been part of my, you know, my sort of being. And I'm pretty

comfortable in my own skin.

Your wife clearly described you as this, relaxed, very gentle, empathetic. He's a great mate. He's

a good son. He's an excellent dad. And that's the person that I've met. As you said just then,

the opposition did this, maybe too good a job of painting of some sort of

Batman villain at times. And do you think that now in these sort of formats,

people are starting to see the real version of you?

Yeah, I think so. I think people stop you and say, oh, I heard that interview the other day,

and I didn't know this about you. I hadn't heard that before. And it's funny because I've been in

public life for over 23 years or so. And people have seen me through the lens of being the sports

minister or immigration minister or health minister or home affairs minister, defence

minister, whatever it might be, that sort of snapshot and that point in time. And leader of

the house. I mean, some of these roles, you sort of take on the attack dog role, which is a necessary

one in the parliament. It's an adversarial environment. And I've always said that I went in

to politics, not wanting to sit on the fence, but stand up for what I believe in. And it's a game of

of tackle, not touch.

If you, you know, if you walk away with your head held high, didn't make every call as you would want

in hindsight, but not to live with those regrets. And yeah, I think that's, people can appreciate

that.

First thing, whenever I see you always ask about family, as you did first thing this morning,

I just thought you could go back and tell us about your extended family,

mum and dad and your siblings growing up and your current family.

Yeah, so pretty humble, sort of out of suburbs upbringing. And, you know,

dad was a big fan of my dad. He was a big fan of my dad. He was a big fan of my dad.

Worked hard. Mum worked hard. Raised five kids and really, you know, they sacrificed and went

without to give us a good education, sort of, I guess, second tier school, not sort of first tier

private schools that they couldn't afford back in the day. But, you know, mum took in kids as a

family daycare mum to pull some extra dollars together to save to send us to school. Dad

started out as a bricklayer and a builder and ultimately was, you know,

successful in, through hard work and his endeavours and, you know, with mum's support. So

that was the grounding. It was a, you know, a carefree life and jumping on the bike and

playing backyard cricket until dark, you know, jumping around in the pool, the above ground pool

in those days in the backyard. And, you know, I think it gives you an appreciation,

A, of what you've got now, but also,

that there are a lot of people in humble households right now who are really doing it tough.

Oldest of five?

Yes.

Are you close to the siblings?

Yeah, I am. Yeah, I am. And there's 10 years between myself and my youngest sister

and they're all different, different jobs. And, but we've always remained close. And my mum and

dad separated when I finished year 12 in 1987. Sort of, you know, I guess one of those

family days.

It's one of those dynamics where you wait until, you know, you finished year 12 before they separated.

And that was, you know, that was a messy situation. And for us as siblings, it probably drew us

closer together. But we grew up as kids with a really close relationship with our cousins. And

that was, you know, a real highlight for me as a child growing up. And

I've wanted that for our kids as well, to be close to, you know, my, my brother and sisters,

their kids. And they are, and it's nice to see them together and, you know,

seeing them playing together. And it's also the highlight for, you know, we sort of congregate

largely at dad's place and, and, you know, it's the joy of his life as well. And it's good to

see him enjoying the grandkids and the joy that comes with seeing all of them together.

I think, Peter, that immediately it humanises people when you know their backstory,

and, and, and even your own, you were married at 23 for a short time. And I think

Rebecca, your beautiful daughter was with a partner you're engaged with, and you meet Kiraly

pretty soon after, who's been your lifelong partner. You had the two boys with, that's a

bit of complexity for a young man at that stage, mate. How did you, how'd you work your way through

all that? I didn't do too well to start with. So I was married at 23 and, and we'd, we'd sort of

lived together for, I don't know, 12, 18 months or something before that.

And I, you know, I picked my then wife up from, she was a nurse and picked her up from work one day

and after a night shift and she just said, look, I don't love you anymore. And I tried to work on

that, but it just didn't work. And, and I was working two jobs. I was, you know, you know,

keen to make money and, and try and set ourselves up. She wanted to travel and, and it was just,

you know, we were too young for that relationship. And, and it was,

yeah, it was confronting because I'd always, particularly with my parents having separated,

which really, you know, upset and, and, and, you know, and I didn't cope with that well

at the time as a, as a 17 year old. And I always thought, you know, I wanted to get married and I

wanted to be for life and I wanted to raise a big family and, and, and that wasn't the case. And

yeah, so that was- Did it knock you around?

Yeah, it did. And it, yeah, it sort of, it takes,

takes a while to recover from that. And, you know, that I guess you, you deal with all those

knockbacks and setbacks. And, and when you look at it with the benefit of hindsight,

it was just a level of immaturity and, and, you know, there was no third parties or anything

like that. It was just, just the reality of, for me, working two jobs and working hard and,

and, and yeah, it just, we were together at the wrong time.

One of those two jobs was as a police officer.

Yeah.

You started out, I know you, you spent some time as a kid working in a butcher shop as well. What,

what drew you to, to want to be in uniform and tell us about that time?

But I'd wanted to be a policeman from a young age. I don't know why. I mean, I listened to my

mother's advice, which you should always do, I suppose, but, you know, no one in our family

had been to university before and she was keen for me to go and, and, you know, and I was keen

to go too. But I started out doing a bachelor of business. I really wanted to go to university.

I wanted to go to the police academy, but, but she wanted me to do that. And, and it was good

advice. I did it for two years and I, I was majoring in accountancy, which I didn't enjoy.

So I decided to, to defer and I finished my degree later on, but I went into policing because I

couldn't see myself, you know, sitting in a bank nine to five behind a desk or an accountancy firm

or something like that. I, and, and I liked the, you know, sort of the pace or the excitement or

the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you

know, the, the unknown factor within a policing career. And that's, I guess what I enjoyed. And

it's a little bit like this job. You don't know what the news cycle holds today. You don't know

the next question in a, in an, in an interview, which is not encouragement to ask a horrible

question, but, but as a policeman, you just don't know what that next radio call is going to be or

what's behind that door that, you know, that you're about to, to enter. And there is, for me,

I've, you know, I've always sort of been attracted to that, um, to that dynamic.

The, the theme that I understand runs through your life as a, as a policeman, you were

zero tolerance on violence against women and children and, and fast track to your political

life. I want to ask you about what I think might be one of your proudest achievements, the

formation of ACE, the Australian Centre to Counter Child Exploitation. It's a,

it's a hundred million dollar investment. It's regarded as a global leader in that space.

Is that,

is that the reason why you're drawn to politics, the chance to, to do things like that?

Yeah, uh, short answer is yes. And, uh, I'm incredibly proud of what, you know, the work

that the, the police and the analysts and, uh, all of the tech people do. And, and for those,

you know, who aren't aware of the work, it's really interesting to have a look at them online,

actually, because they are, it's, it's a function of the Australian Federal Police

and they counter child exploitation here, but in the region as well. So, uh, they,

you know,

I think they've, they've saved now over 1500 lives of, of young kids that were in the hands

of pedophiles or subject to those networks. And the, the technical aspect of it, where they can

look at a photo, an image, uh, of a child sitting at the end of a bed or, uh, in a car, and they can

analyse that to try and identify where, you know, and, and the circumstances, um, of, of, you know,

that child being at risk and how they can recover that child. It's the talent and the expertise is

amazing, but it was underfunded and it wasn't a priority. Uh, and when I came into that portfolio

and had responsibility for the federal police, I, I really, well, I gave it a direction to the

commissioner to prioritise that because in my household, you know, we, we were just very

fortunate that, you know, it, you know, there was no sexual abuse that, that I was aware of in my

world I'd never seen, or I probably had a pretty naive upbringing, but, but as a police officer,

a 19 year old, uh, you know,

walking into domestic violence situations and seeing blood splattered across the walls or

kids screaming and, you know, uh, you know, grabbing onto mum or dad's leg, uh, as, you know,

people are fighting, all of that is just horrible and scars you. And, uh, and I'd work then in the

sex offender squad, uh, where you're taking statements from rape victims or visiting crime

scenes and, uh, interviewing offenders and taking people through the courts and the frustration of

that process when, uh, there's not,

an adequate sentence given at the end of it. And so, yes, I mean, that, that's been a driver for me

and the protection of women and children, I think is paramount because I think the, the, the protection

of that innocence of their upbringing and allowing them to be children, uh, and allowing women to,

uh, you know, to live their lives freely as, uh, as, as most men would expect. I just think it's

a human right and it's, it's, it's not a given, unfortunately.

Bizarrely, uh, I used to sit in a breakfast radio studio, Peter, for 11 years and, and you read the

paper front and center, and it's, it's, it's not a given, unfortunately.

Every day because you're looking at the news. Hidden on page 18 would be some horrific,

you know, child sex offense that had two, two paragraphs. On the front page would be

some footballer, you know, with a new girlfriend and you, and you think,

have we got our priorities so wrong? It doesn't seem as though the, the thing that I know drives

you gets the attention from mainstream. Have you got a theory on that?

Uh, yeah, look, I do. And I, I think it's a, it's a real societal issue because

at one level it's understandable.

At dinner parties, you know, people will be talking about, you know, houses being broken into or cars being stolen or the, you know, the gangland wars or the tobacco shop, you know, arsons, whatever it might be, because it's in the news.

People can see the footage and, you know, it affects them.

But the next conversation about the pedophile ring that's just been discovered and the child that's been sexually abused, understandably, people don't want to talk about that either in front of their children or at a dinner party where people are trying to enjoy each other at a barbecue, whatever it might be.

And it's wrong because we have to lift the veil.

The images of these offenders are blurred out because the law requires that to be.

The names are normally protected.

And so the footage is, you know, there's no CCTV from the robbery at the service station that people can see and conceptualize and see the violence that, you know, that was the subject of that crime.

And so I just think as a society, we have to accept that this is a very significant, you know, crime type.

And it really, yeah.

It upsets me that we don't talk more about it because I think the awareness, encouraging children to speak up, encouraging adults to look for signs, all of that hopefully would lead to a reduction in the incidents.

But sadly, it doesn't.

I want to chat to you about, you know, a few of the issues that you seem to find clarity on whether people agree with you or not.

We caught up, I don't know if you remember, had a beer in the city in Melbourne and the voice to parliament had just been,

and you asked me about it and I really hadn't understood it at all.

And the idea that our Indigenous brothers and sisters would have a voice in the government of Australia and on the surface, everyone who cares about Indigenous Australians,

immediately you think about what you can do and what that means.

You just come back from visiting a number of the remote Indigenous communities and mid-sentence you stopped and you actually had a tear.

And you were talking about just how horrific.

Some of the circumstances that you'd seen, where and how much it affected you.

And yet in public life, you were opposed to the voice.

And I think someone in parliament would have even called you a racist at the time.

And I'm just, this theme of this person I know that cares deeply versus this image is polar opposites.

Can you tell us about how you arrived to that decision?

So just go back a second though.

We caught up for a beer and I think you introduced me to some low-carb trendy beer that I hadn't had before.

Yeah.

Which you got.

Which you graciously said was okay.

I gave you a gluten-free beer, mate, and you went, mate.

I sucked it down.

It was okay.

Yeah.

So look, mate, every Australian wants a better outcome for Indigenous Australians.

And it's not a lack of money.

The money is there.

And it's this huge funnel that just becomes a drip at the end when you get to these communities.

And you go up to a place like Gove to Unupingu land and you look at the great work that he did during his life.

His lifetime and what his brothers and others are doing there now.

But there's a 90% attendance rate at school.

I walked into a classroom where these young kids were preparing for a robotics competition

in the United States.

They were travelling from this little Indigenous community to the US and they were just beaming

with excitement.

And they were in uniform.

And, you know.

Barker College had a relationship with this local school and it was just an amazing demonstration

of leadership within a community where they had a sustainable logging business, a building

business, the streets were clean, health services were provided, and it was a functioning society.

And I was in that classroom with those kids and I don't mind saying, I went to the side

and I can be a bit emotional sometimes, but I had to compose myself because what I'd seen

there compared to what I'd seen only a couple of hours by plane away in other communities

was just chalk and cheese.

And in some communities where you've got kids who are living in complete squalor, kids who

are out breaking into homes or businesses and stealing cars over nighttime because they're

afraid to go.

They're afraid to go home to an unsafe environment and they sleep during the day, therefore they

miss school.

And the contrast, it just really hit me that why can these kids live a life that we would

expect for all of our kids, but exactly the same kids, Australians, each one of them in

another community like Alice Springs can't enjoy that normality.

And so I just thought the voice was...

Ultimately more about the elites than it was about those kids and about their parents.

And you speak to the elderly women and the elders otherwise in the communities and the

town camps, they want what every parent does across the country.

They want a stable home environment.

They want an education for their kids.

They want health.

They want running water and they want to have jobs there for their kids as they graduate

from school.

And the whole conversation is diverted by a group of people that care more about themselves

than the people they're supposed to represent.

And I want to see those kids going into a trade.

I want to see them going to university.

I want to see them enjoying the normality of life.

And I don't think that's too much to ask for.

And I just thought the voice was going to be an entrenchment or an enshrinement in the

constitution of something that was going to set back.

I don't think that's going to set back the prospects of Indigenous people for a long

time.

But you've been handed the tough portfolios traditionally of defence and immigration and

these complex issues, just like the one you described then.

And you have a way of seeing through difficult issues, even when they're really emotional.

When we've got people detained on places like Manus Highland and immigration detention centres,

anyone understands how horrific that is.

How do you...

Even when you sit in those leadership roles, how do you come to a clear decision?

Do you wrestle with that or how would you explain something like that?

Look, they're tough decisions.

But in the end, if you're the Home Affairs Minister, when the file lands on your desk,

it's gone through 10 other hands and the decision ultimately hasn't been made by those people.

And so it's the toughest of decisions you're presiding over.

And normally, you look at the...

There's facts before you and there's a terrible decision and just two degrees less than that.

It's the devil's curse in terms of the decision you've got before you.

But ultimately, your job is to take a decision that's in our country's best interest, that's

going to provide a safe outcome for Australians.

It's going to preserve our sovereignty or our rule of law.

And that's the...

I guess the lens that you have to look at.

You have to look at it through and you have to look obviously at the human side.

And there are countless visas that I issued for kids and for their parents and parents

whose mother or father had come here from a part of the world and had a stroke or been

diagnosed with dementia and couldn't return home.

And you do all of that without the public seeing any of it.

And when I went into the portfolio, there were kids in detention and boats obviously

had arrived.

And...

Our desire was A, to stop the boats and then to get the kids out of detention.

I was proud that on my watch, we got everyone out.

And if you don't have border security and you don't have integrity, then people take

advantage of that.

And the people smugglers will take the money off innocent men, women and children because

they're just another commodity.

And when the people aren't there paying the money, they're running prostitutes, they're

running the human trafficking, they're running drugs.

They're running drugs.

They're running tobacco.

These people just don't have the same set of standards that we do.

And you have to deal with that and you have to try and take that business model away from

them because ultimately people drown at sea and kids end up in detention.

The much better way to run the migration program is to bring people in in a regularised way,

give them an opportunity.

I mean, we brought in thousands of women who were Yazidis and the Yazidis had been subject

to sexual servitude and had been raped and brutalised by ISIS and ISIL.

And those women came in, have made amazing Australians, have started a life that their

parents, that they could never have imagined themselves as children.

And two, three, four, 10 generations time, those kids and those generations will be talking

about how brave they are.

They're great, great, great grandmothers.

They're great, great grandmothers who came to Australia and, so you've got to get that

balance right.

I guess that's the point.

Speaker 1 We all are born different.

As we grow, the experiences we have develop into outlooks, uniquely our own, charting

our life's course.

No one sees an idea, opinion, or opportunity like you.

And no one sees you like me.

Speaker 1 It's not like you.

Like VU.

Victoria University.

Uniquely you.

Hi, my name's Mim.

I do a Bachelor of Social Work.

I got this tattoo done for my 20th birthday present

because I was born as a twin,

but she passed away because my mum had ovarian cancer

during pregnancy.

So my name's Miriindi, which means rainbow,

and it means the bridge between,

for our ancestors to reach their afterlife,

which is what my sister was called,

which is the Wadahputi, which is the Milky Way,

and that's where they go as, like, the stars,

and they live there.

VU's very supportive.

It doesn't matter if you're an Indigenous student.

Wunday Bola to make sure that you're very well taken care of.

At Alita, our signature program, Alita Connect,

is something we're really passionate and proud of.

We bring together groups of five to six people

around the globe from diverse backgrounds,

sport, industry, social venture and the arts.

We come together to learn, to connect and to collaborate.

Vanessa Ford, Chief Operating Officer at Kukua.

The Alita Connect experience for me has been transformational.

I met people that I would never have met

from totally different spheres.

It's very basic.

It's all about relationships.

It's all about how we communicate

and what the Alita Connect group does that is so powerful

is when you bring two people

from two totally different worlds together,

there's no ego.

It just leaves room for,

for the real you.

And I think that's what Alita gave me

was bringing back the real me

and really connecting to my own leadership style.

We're doing this interview this morning in Melbourne, Australia

and the common place to have had a home invasion

or have had a neighbors have one.

We have had a couple in recent times at our own home

and you speak to the neighbors

and almost everyone in this street.

In your role at Home Affairs,

you, you,

you've deported and canceled the visas of more,

thousands and thousands and thousands of people,

pedophiles and bikies and violent criminals.

Their connections then went after your family

in the most horrific way,

which is an untold story.

And your kids were subjected to having federal police

at the front of their classrooms

and some horrific things to kill your wife.

Was there a moment where you thought,

is this all worth it?

Did, did that get, get to you?

Uh, it's a, it's a tough question

because I've always said that I would leave this job overnight

if one of my kids went off the rails or,

uh, you know, they, they needed me more than, than the job did.

The most remarkable thing about, uh, you know,

my wife, Kiralee, and, and my kids

is that they've never complained about it.

And, uh, it, it, it's, it's intrusive

because you have 24-7 security.

Uh, it means you, you know, you don't lead a normal life.

And, uh, and, and, but that, that's the price you pay.

I mean, I think we're a safer community,

safer society because of those people that we, we deported.

These were serious criminals.

And, uh, and no, I, I don't think that I thought about leaving the job.

And, and that was never something that, that, you know,

a conversation that Kiralee and I had where she said,

you know, this is too much, you, you know, you need to get out.

She's been stoic and supportive, uh, every day.

And, and I've been incredibly grateful for that

because you couldn't do this job without, uh, that support,

and without a strong family.

Because I think that's the, that's the most important thing

that you have to do.

I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very,

a very strong relationship and it's, it gives you the ballast.

And it also allows you when you get back home to, um,

to be able to reset.

And I, and I think mentally that's important as well,

that you don't just carry the burden of this job,

which, which is a vocation.

It's not a normal job where you go home and, you know,

ten past five, you, um, you know, you're off the train

and you're back home and, and you can switch off.

It's, it, it goes constantly.

So, so to be able to have that, uh, that support network with your wife and kids,

kids, and your close friends as well, that for me has been really important.

And it hurts me that I put them at risk because of my job, but I'm incredibly grateful that

they take it in their stride.

And I mean, I probably told this story before, but I think the only complaint, maybe two

complaints.

I mean, one is that the kids have done their hundred hours of driving with the AFP and

the rear vision mirror.

It comes with a layer.

Well, it becomes a bit hard because they're on their L's and you're sitting in the passenger

seat trying to give them guidance.

But when you take off from the stop sign, you've got to allow room for two cars, so

your car and the car behind you to make the turn.

And so it all becomes a bit stressful for them.

And so there's a bit of a gripe about that.

And then the bum bags at school that the AFP carry and trying to convince your kids that

nobody knows who they are.

But kids are much smarter than what you realize.

So, but no, they've been great and they've grown up to be now young adults and I'm incredibly

proud of them.

I've heard you talking in recent times a lot about the Australian dream of owning your

own house and how that's become harder for the current generation than perhaps ever before

in Australian history.

In a few months time, you could be the next prime minister of Australia.

What are some of the things that people should know that you want to achieve?

Well, I will break my back to make sure that people can achieve their dream of home

education.

Because I think it's such an important part of our culture.

For me personally, it's been a way to, you know, I've renovated homes over the years,

bought and sold, and it's been a way to create wealth.

And I think it is the foundation of being able to form a stable relationship and raise

kids.

I think the value increase in an asset, as we've seen in housing over recent years, means

that you can live a comfortable life in retirement.

And it's an asset that grows in value such that you can bequeath it to your children

and help set them up.

And renting for life is not part of our culture.

And ultimately, it's not a way to generate wealth.

The other aspect to it, which is important to us as a Liberal Party, is that generally

it's the asset that is the security to start a small business.

And, you know, small business is very important to our party.

And just giving people that choice, if that's what they want to do.

That's great.

If they don't want to do it, well, that's fine.

So we've got a huge problem, though, because the migration program has brought in about

a million people over the last two years.

And we're a great country because of migration, but it needs to be in a managed way because

at the same time, we've had a record low of building approvals, construction costs have

gone through the roof, land supply has been limited, and we've had this perfect storm.

We've seen rents go up by about...

About 20%.

You've seen people lose the hope of and the aspiration of home ownership.

And I want to restore that hope and that dream again.

And we've announced a $5 billion package to provide support to councils, to help them

with sewerage and water infrastructure and road infrastructure so that they can develop

the land more quickly and bring that on.

And we'll have more to say in relation to housing because I think it's a really significant

problem in the community.

And, you know...

I want those young people who are working hard to have an expectation that they can

own a home.

And I don't think that's unreasonable.

Peter, I had the great privilege of sitting across from a range of different people and

what I would say are great leadership stories as yours is absolutely, and these sort of

patterns around what great leaders do.

And I'm keen to ask you a handful of questions on that.

We think this idea of sort of self-leadership, that it's very hard to lead someone else unless

you know what fills you.

What do you do on that front?

What do you do to make sure you're feeling well to be able to do the job you do?

Well, as you know, and I suspect as some people have heard me say before, but you've been

a big influence on me in this regard in terms of meditation.

And I spoke about our dear friend, mutual friend Jeffrey before, and he's a big believer

as well.

And so I've looked at successful people and I see, you know, the success and the balance

that you've had in your life, which...

You know, I think is and should be a role model for many people because you've got the

balance right, I think, and it's, you know, there are always pressures and, you know,

always issues you've got to deal with, but in your work life, most importantly in your

home life and obviously your business life and your sporting career as well.

And so meditation has been important for me.

Exercise is important.

And I think the...

Yeah.

The ability to have those relationships where you can talk freely and it's not a download

because you don't want to burden somebody else with all of your problems, but it is having

those trusted people around you that you can bounce ideas off and they don't have to be

connected with your workplace and they can be different people in your life for different

elements that you can compartmentalize.

So, yeah, meditation has been important for me and it allows a reset and it allows that

refreshing of the mind.

I think that's been important and each to their own.

People can find their solace or their good place, you know, according to what's important

to them.

It doesn't fit the public profile, but you're a meditator.

It's not something that people are going to understand, but it's, again, it's something

I...

You're a great listener when you're around, you genuinely feel like when you're talking

to you, you're not focused on anyone else and I've watched your take on things that

other people would be surprised in a range of different areas.

Is there one thing that you've noticed in your work life?

Yeah.

Is there one piece of leadership advice that you pass on to others?

I've always found it important to surround yourself with good people and I have a very

low turnover of staff and I think it's important to identify those people that you can help

create a culture with and that you can bounce off and that you can trust each other and

that the workplace doesn't become, you know, sort of a hard labour.

You can't be turning up in an environment each day that's just not conducive to positive

outcomes.

So I think bringing those people together and, you know, if there's any leadership skill

that I've got, it's identifying good people and generally people who are smarter than

you as well, which is always a good lesson in life and making sure that those people

can blend together.

And I think that works.

I think that way you get the most out of them and I think you self-develop yourself as well

and I think that's an important part and it's sort of a statement of the obvious for many

but for me that's been very effective.

You've got a really clear vision for what Australia should be.

I can hear it in your words, the ability to own your own house, to live a healthy life,

whether you're in Gove or in Mossman in Sydney or Toorak in Melbourne, this idea of living

a safe environment.

Treating people with dignity and respect, but you come together in this environment

of MPs and a pretty brutal world of politics.

How do you try and get a team like that to share that vision and be on the same page?

Well, politics is better than it used to be.

There used to be, you know, sort of the gladiator age where you could lob limbs off and attack

each other.

So it's always been an adversarial environment.

That's the nature of it.

It's like a courtroom.

And people, you know…

Yeah.

…are right to be passionate about arguing their beliefs and, you know, I've spoken

publicly, the Prime Minister's spoken publicly about the relationship that he and I have

and we got on well.

We are able to talk about issues that are important for our country and come together

at moments where it's necessary to resolve matters, particularly of national security,

quickly and to deal with those threats or those issues.

I think that's important.

But there is a…

There is an adversarial element to it.

Sometimes it gets personal, which it shouldn't.

And sometimes the people around you, you know, can feel the impact of that as well and you

need to be conscious of that.

Yeah.

I've heard you say that before, that you like Anthony Albanese, you think he's a decent

person.

You don't think he's a particularly good Prime Minister.

But I think that is another trait of yours.

I don't hear you talk down about anyone, that you treat people with dignity and respect.

And even in that adversarial environment…

You strike me as someone who's inherently curious.

You know, the fact that, you know, meditation's a random thing a decade ago when we spoke

about it.

But is there a path of curiosity that you've gone down recently that people might be surprised

about?

Well, I'm discovering this world of podcasts, which has been a bit foreign.

And it's hard to sort of find that block of time.

So…

But, you know, I do try and go for a walk or go for a run or go to the gym.

And it's…

Yeah.

And it's…

And then I do some of my eight-day routines each morning.

And it can be part of that.

I like listening to music as well.

And that helps clear the mind or just distract from what's ahead for the day.

But it also allows some clear thinking.

And one of the things that I haven't been successful at doing is just trying to block

out that period of time during the day that does give you the ability to think and to

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