Anita Jacoby Am Discusses The Importance Of Communicating Effectively With Empathy

This week's guest on the Empowering Leaders podcast, Anita Jacoby, is a genuine pioneer

for female success in Australian media. Anita talks about consistently being overlooked for

promotion simply because she was female. Interesting to hear her thoughts on the world

of clickbait, fake news that we have today compared with long form investigative style

journalism that she made her name with. The story of her own father is fascinating,

had a huge positive influence in her life, a World War II refugee, the founder of Sony in

Australia, to then discover after his death a very dark and tragic side to his life that he

had never revealed previously. Worth listening to this story because it's a fascinating one

on so many levels. It's people like Anita Jacoby who inspire the work that we do at Alita. We'd

love you to check out alitacollective.com and in particular our bespoke Alita Connect program

where we bring together diverse leaders from a range of backgrounds,

in bespoke groups of five or six to connect, to learn, to share and we would love to connect

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Connect. Simply head to Alita Collective, book a discovery call, we'll give you a call and love

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Anita Jacoby is one of the most respected and decorated producers in Australian television

history. A multi-award winning career spanning more than 40 years including renowned program

60 Minutes, Enough Rope, The Guru and Transfer as well as securing interviews with the likes

of Bill Clinton, Sir David Attenborough, Jerry Seinfeld, John Travolta, Elton John and many many more

before eventually being headhunted for the managing director role of the Australian arm of Britain's

ITV studios. Anita is a passionate advocate for women in media and leadership, is currently the

chair of the ABC's Advisory Council, a board member of Chief Executive Women, Documentary Australia

and Women in Media. In 2019 Anita was made a member of the Order of Australia for her incredible

contribution.

Anita it's great to catch up with you today. Can I start by saying it feels like you've come a long

way from the girl who was expelled as a 15 year old at PLC in year 10. Can I ask you first up if

you could go back and talk to your 15 year old self what would you say? Push the boundaries like

I did when I was 15 because that's how you achieve success and I think look I think a lot of young

people when they're starting out they are pushing boundaries because often they don't know who and

what they are and it's only through life.

You discover you know who and what your capabilities are. I was fortunate I think a bit

like you Luke that I had a very influential father and he allowed influential in my life. I don't mean

that generally I mean that in my life and he actually created sort of some boundaries for me

but he gave me a lot of freedom to find out exactly who I was. So I think lots of young

people rebel when they're young and then they grow up and work out that in life you've actually got

to conform to a degree and probably not say exactly what you think.

Nita you've been an incredible pioneer in the male dominated media industry in Australia. How

difficult has it been for when you look back into the 1980s and it just seemed to be an incredibly

challenging environment for women. Can you reflect on what that was like?

Yes look I think growing up in commercial television as you say in the 1980s was pretty

tough for young women. We didn't have any female role models. There were no female mentors. All of

our bosses and senior bosses were male and it was a culture that was very much

quite a bullying and harassing culture and you just had to find the inner strength to actually

survive it and I remember for example I was working at the Today Show which was the old

nine network. I'm talking about the nine network of old not the nine network of today and I was

working as a supervising producer. You know that's the two I see on a particular television show

and today being exactly what Carl Stepanovich and Sarah Albo host today and I was

put my hand up to become the executive producer, the head of the program. Not once, not twice but

three times and I was passed over because I was young and I was a female and there were no young

females that were running any shows at the time. Not in news, not in current affairs, not sports,

not any entertainment or any other drama. They just didn't exist. So it was quite a tough culture

to grow up in but in some ways I'm glad that I did because it actually pushed me as an individual

to find skills and to be able to do what I wanted to do. So I think it was a really tough culture.

I guess the resilience that I probably didn't realize that I had and I think those things are

I think resilience particularly is really important. And you look back Anita and you know you think of

how heartbreaking that must have been for you having the skills and clearly the

ability and the dedication to do those roles better than male counterparts but you would

looked up into management it would have been all male and there just genuinely was I know the word

for it apart from that misogyny at the time that was commonplace and it just wasn't even

considered probably and it's not that long ago and I think it's what I admire a lot about you Anita

not only have you got the resilience out of it but you've genuinely been a champion

for wanting to tell those stories and to mentor other women going forward. Is that where that's

born out of for you the hardship that you faced? I think so. I think because I recognize from an

early stage that mentoring is really important. It actually empowers other individuals to recognize

their own skills and what they're capable of doing. So I think probably the most important thing is that

because I was so young and I was desperately looking for you know role models myself and my

role model was at home in my father but I didn't have any female role models whatsoever. So I've

gone into the industry and wherever possible I've mentored women. I also mentor you know men who are

in media industry as well because I find sometimes we just need others to tell us what we're really

good at and to point out what they can do and also to open door. Mentoring should also be about

opening doors as well to create a role model for women. I think that's a really important thing.

Opportunities for other people not just for yourself. So I'm really really passionate. I

co-chair an organization called Women in Media and that is all about empowering and mentoring

young women to find their capabilities, to find the resilience, the courage and to find where

their strengths lie and to go out into the workplace and really embrace whatever they

choose to do in life. And Anita the Jacoby Whatley scholarship is a great legacy as part of what you

do and and as you said the

change for me is that now you can see Anita Jacoby has been managing director. There actually

are those roles that you really pioneered and created and we've seen you know so many

brilliant females now that do the job as they could have done in the 80s had they been given

the opportunity. Has it changed where in 2023 are you comfortable with where the media shift because

it has been slow at times even from my experience working in the industry Anita. We've been slow

moving. We're happy to run programs on other people but not so much on the media. So I think

that's so good reflecting on our own space and we do it well enough now.

I certainly think it's it's a hell of a lot better than it was in the nineteen eighties. But I look at say for example commercial

network television. There has only been one female CEO of a commercial network and that has been Maureen Plasvick, who was in I think it was in 2001. So we're talking about now 22 years ago and there has not subsequently been a female CEO or maybe even a female CEO.

managing director of a commercial network in Australia. And so I feel that whilst we have

made a lot of progress, we haven't made enough progress in order to change that. And I still

think that the big companies, the major media players, their CEOs are predominantly men.

And until we change that, all of that culture and the way that we perceive things

flows from the top down. Yeah, it is a really great point you make. And obviously,

I spent a fair bit of time in the sporting world, Anita, in the AFL industry, and it feels like the

change there is happening a lot quicker. We've had several really successful presidents and

currently do of AFL clubs and CEOs currently in those roles and much more expanded across

board level and senior positions, albeit very slow in the 80s and 90s. So perhaps the media

industry still needs to put the mirror up and reflect back on its own performance. Can I go

back to Change Gear and talk to you about in the 1990s, you're working as a producer on 60 Minutes.

And you have horrific motorcycle accident results in having your leg amputated. Can you talk us

through what that experience was like? I mean, clearly horrible physically and emotional,

but how did you cope with that? Well, look, I've always from a very

young age been very fit and active, would throw myself into any sports. And I particularly love

surfing and diving and swimming. The ocean was my absolute retreat, and it still is.

I would always ride motorbikes up at a farm that we had, which was in far north,

western New South Wales. And unfortunately, I did, I was a pillion passenger and I had an accident,

which resulted in the loss of my leg. It was one of the most traumatic things that's happened to

me in my life. Not because I don't necessarily want to, it's just that I don't like to be branded

in that way. And I think people who have had accidents or have disabilities are often branded

in that way. And I think people who have had accidents or have disabilities are often branded

in that way. And I think people who have had accidents or have disabilities are often branded

in that way. I think it's becoming less obvious. Yes, it's incredibly traumatic when you're

incredibly active to lose a limb. And especially when you're a young female, and you pride yourself

on what you wear, how you look, and especially working in an industry where image was everything.

You know, when you look at the media, and you look at television, image is everything that we

reflect. And so I found that very difficult to deal with it. But what I did was I just jumped

back into work at 60 minutes. And I think that's what I did. And I think that's what I did. And I

went off and travelled the world. And I just relied on my capabilities and my get up and go

in order to achieve what I could achieve. And I don't view that my career has suffered

in any way whatsoever as a result. Yeah, which is amazing. I guess you said the

resilience that you've had across your life to be able to deal with that and compartmentalise it,

not want to share it for those reasons, which I can understand completely. But to then,

as you said, go and travel the world and continue doing the work you're doing with

60 Minutes is quite remarkable. You're an incredible storyteller. And I look back and

look through your work and read a lot of what you've done. And some of your investigative

journalism has been brilliant, including a famous story you broke in 2001 that was titled

The Body Snatchers. Can you tell us a little bit about that and why proper storytelling has been

really important to you? Yes. I was working for the Sunday program. And I don't know how many

of your listeners and viewers remember Sunday. It was hosted by Jim Whaley. And it was like a

premier current affairs show on a Sunday morning. Kerry Packer was a huge supporter of it. And we

used to do long form stories, cover stories. And my executive producer had asked me to go and

research the area of organ donation. And I spent a few weeks going through all these files and

reading stuff. And I wasn't getting anywhere. And all of a sudden, I came across a story about what

they were called ratters. And what had happened was they had been stealing from corpses at the

Glebe Morgue in Sydney, which is our

largest morgue. And the ratters had been stealing from corpses, you know, small amounts of money,

sand shoes. And what had happened were they were investigated by ICAC, the Independent Commission

Against Corruption here in New South Wales. And they had been fined and, you know, ostracized as

a result of that. And I couldn't work out why would ICAC investigate some people that were

stealing $10 here or sand shoes here. It just didn't seem a big enough story. So I started

contacting the ratters just to have a conversation.

And what I discovered through three of these people that I contacted was there was a far

bigger story that ICAC had failed to investigate, which was the widespread theft of body parts

by doctors, registered doctors from Glebe Morgue, with no permission from any relatives whatsoever.

So Helen Daly, the reporter, and I set out to tell the story of a body parts supermarket

at Glebe here in New South Wales, our leading morgue, where wholesale theft of body parts,

and I think the power of storytelling to make a change was in this case, that story went to air.

And in fact, it went to air on Sunday, and it went to air on my old alma mater, 60 Minutes.

And it created so much interest and government interest that it managed to change number of

government acts. So good storytelling, really positive storytelling, and admittedly, this

wasn't a positive story per se, can actually lead to fundamental change. And I think that's the

really, that's the gift of storytelling. And I think that's the gift of storytelling.

And it does take investment, as you said, Anita, Kerry Packer, a great, a great supporter,

you know, at the very top of the chain saying we need to invest in long form current affairs. So

people like you have got the budget to be able to go and actually find those stories and bring

them to attention. And, you know, very distressing, disturbing, I imagine for families that

had their loved ones' body parts harvested. It's a pretty gruesome story when you when you think

about it. How do you compare that, Anita, to the sort of clickbait world of 20,

23, where we're sucked into a headline that has no relevance at all to the actual truth of a

story? And it feels like long form journalism that you cut your teeth on is a bit of a dying art.

Well, there's still Four Corners. And, you know, there's still other programs that do long form

journalism, thank God. But I think that the rise and rise of misinformation and worse,

disinformation is absolutely, it's a real battle between public interest journalism

and what's happening in the media. And I think that's a really, really good story.

Because social media platforms, there is, I go on there, I go on to Twitter, for example,

and read a lot of the, you know, what people are talking about and what all the, you know,

key issues of the day are. And there is so much misinformation out there. And it's actually quite

disturbing. And I know people or organizations like Google are actually spending more money and

putting more money into actually media literacy, and actually combating misinformation and

disinformation, as do I'm involved with an organization called the Australian Journalist

and Media Authority. We are looking at misinformation and disinformation,

because it impacts on all of us. And we actually lose sight of what the truth is.

And that's good journalism, good journalism we need in a democracy, because it allows us to

understand the truth. And that's the fundamental core of all good story, all good storytelling and

journalism. And it's a really interesting time, Anita, on that front. And, you know,

passionate about leadership. And I feel going forward that the actual,

the search for facts and being able to verify that in a meaningful way is almost going to be a

currency going forward, because it's complex, isn't it? When you've got special interest and

huge amounts of money that have got an interest in maybe disinformation, as you said, or trying

to skew the truth, or even wholly owned independent advisory boards now that are infiltrated probably

by special interest at time as well to produce studies that favor better commercial outcomes,

it's, you know, the whole fake news, it sounds a bit like a pantomime at times, but it's now become

so hard, isn't it? We used to be able to sit around and have a debate, Anita, and say,

here's the facts, and we can disagree on our thoughts on what we should do with them. But

now we can't even agree on the facts. That seems like a hard genie to put back in the bottle.

That's right. It does. And then you look at America and what's happening with Trump,

and the rise and rise and rise of fake news. And it doesn't matter how many times,

you know, he's before the courts,

and he's, you know, there are the misdemeanors, and there are the charges and everything,

you know, the impeachment, still a percentage of the American population doesn't realize that

that's fake news. That's not just misinformation, it's disinformation. And it's deliberately going

out there. So it is actually infiltrating, it's impacting on the American culture more broadly.

That's a terrifying scenario in a democracy. It really is.

It is when you've got 74 million people who vote that way.

That's right.

And, you know, it's such a hotbed conversation. You'll get people who hear, you know, have a dog

in a fight to, apart from the fight for, as you said, factual information and truth, and it just

becomes so skewed, doesn't it? Any conversation used to be in America, you know, Democrats and

Republicans would be great friends and sit around at dinner and debate. Now we're armed, and we want

to actually, you know, kill each other because of our difference of opinion. It's, you know,

from a world where you came from,

where you genuinely could agree on how a good story was brought to the table. It is an interesting

time, isn't it? I don't know where it ends up. Well, I think it's quite scary in America,

because if you look at it, the country is so divided that, you know, it's almost, you think

to yourself, anything could start some sort of conflict within America, where I've always viewed

America as the heart of democracy. But you can't really say that now. Yeah, amazing time. I want to

pivot now to, you know, I think it's a really important time for us to be able to talk about the

story of your incredible memoir that you've written, Secrets Beyond the Screen, and congratulations.

It's a brilliant piece of work and enjoyed reading through in preparation for the central to the

story. And you've already mentioned your father, Philip, who was a World War II refugee who escaped

Germany, self-made businessman, started Sony here in Australia, amongst other incredible things. But

firstly, you start there. Tell us about your relationship with your dad. Look, I was really

fortunate to have a father who was very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very. And I think

have a father who was very worldly. He was a much older dad. He was, you know, about almost 50 when

the time I was born. And he, as you rightly said, he had escaped Nazi Germany and fled to Australia,

the farthest country he could get to, away from what was happening and about to happen in Europe.

And he arrived with nothing here in Australia. And I think we often don't recognise how he was

a political refugee fleeing Nazi Germany, but how we could view those that flee either persecution

or come as migrants, what it's like to arrive in a new country with nothing and set up on your own,

which is what my father did. He was a very clever businessman, and he managed to create a company

that was listed on the Australian Stock Exchange. No mean feat, I don't think. And mind you, I'm

biased, of course. And you get this with your kids and your father and your...

Real relationships. But he was a very clever man, and he just taught me to feel very comfortable

as a young woman in my own skin. And I think if a parent can do that, particularly to a young woman

or, you know, to a young male, that's a really important thing. It sort of sets you up for the

life that you're going to pursue. He was a very, very strong role model for me.

And clearly, Anita, you've got great affection for your dad and the role that he played in your life,

which is...

As you said, what a gift, isn't it? You've got someone who has that influence over you. But you

open your book with a Nietzsche quote that I want to read back to you. Underneath this reality in

which we live and have our being, another and altogether different reality lies concealed. And

so you've uncovered through your research that there was a dark side to your dad and a past that

was somewhat disturbing is the only way I could describe it. How do you relate that to the person

that you loved and know when you've gone back and found out lots of things that you weren't able to

imagine yourself?

Look, I found that very difficult. I think most kids, a lot of kids have a very idealized version

of their parents and they accept their parents' life from when you're born and you move forward.

We very rarely ask our parents about their lives before you came on the scene. And then when you

come on the scene, it's all about going to tennis lessons or ballet or whatever. So about many years

after he'd passed away, I was at a dinner party. And I was at a dinner party and I was at a dinner party

and lots of lawyers and journalists, a lot of alcohol had been drunk. And all of a sudden,

one of the lawyers looks me directly in the face and said, do you know about this infamous court

case involving your father in the 1950s? And he bounced off some legal cases that we'd been

talking about. And when he said that about this infamous legal case in the 1950s, way before I was

born, I had no idea what he was talking about. And I, like most of us, thought that I knew my

parents and I knew my father and I knew him. And I thought, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't

know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't

know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But I actually knew probably this of

that. And yes, I uncovered some really dark parts about his past that I had no knowledge of, which

is, as a storyteller and as a journalist and a producer, quite confronting to find after you've

told hundreds and hundreds of stories all over the world, only to find the most extraordinary story

in your own family, in your own backyard that you weren't aware of, was quite confronting.

And especially when I found out things about him that I'm not sure that he would have wanted me to

find out about, to be honest. Nietzsche was referring to the fact that we all have our

secrets, that we are like icebergs. You can see that top bit, but there's not a lot that you can

see below the surface. And we keep a lot of stuff to ourselves. And I think as a father,

you might appreciate some of that. I don't judge my father for the decisions that he made in his

life. But I really found that I was confronted by some of those decisions and found them quite

disturbing. Yeah, that's an incredible perspective you've got, Anita, that forgiving element to you.

I think most people would struggle when you uncover that two of his partners committed

suicide, not that long apart, and the same tragic way. And your half-sister at the age of four was

sent off to boarding school in what has to be a fairly brutal way. I mean, they're

not great reflections, are they, as an independent person looking at someone who was brilliant to

you. How do you sort of reconcile with that, that clearly he had an amazing impact on you in a

positive way, but perhaps didn't have that with others? It's a hard one to get your head around,

isn't it? It is. It is. And look, I recognise that we're all flawed individuals. Some have

greater flaws than others. I don't condone his behaviour, but I also

think maybe he was attracted to vulnerable women, as some men are. I don't try and rationalise it,

and I don't try and excuse what happened. It would have been a terrible circumstance to have been

in that position that he was. And I also, what I've learnt with my sister that you referred to

who was four when she was sent off to boarding school, I can rationalise that in the sense that

if you're a man who's arrived with nothing, and you have a young child, and you don't have

a mother for that child, and you have to try and somehow make an income during the war,

you know, and after the war, times were really tough for people. So I can step back and very

objectively try and look at that. What it's given me is an understanding of my sister better,

which I think is a gift in the sense that we get on much better now, because I understand some of

the factors that influenced her life when she was growing up, that I had no understanding of when I

was younger. Clearly, that resilience comes out in

you.

And all the storytelling, and I'm full of admiration for the way you handle it. Even

that story, I think, would sort of rock a lot of people. What are the traits you think that help

you to be able to get that perspective? I think because I'm quite pragmatic,

I like to get to the truth of whatever I'm doing. I think it's really important knowing truth,

not just as a journalist or television producer, but as an individual, understanding truth and

getting to that, and then being able to put it into a story. And I think that's really important.

process that truth. And recognizing that's part of your heritage, that's part of your background.

It doesn't define who you are. But it's you, you come to a recognition that that has actually

shaped who and what you are. I, as I said earlier, I now see that my father was a much more flawed

and complex man than I ever imagined when I was growing up. Does it make me love him less? No,

it doesn't. I still love him very dearly. But I now see him with a different lens.

And I think that's, for me, at my age, when I think probably one of my greatest regrets is I

could never sit down and have this conversation with him and ask him all the dozens and dozens

and dozens of questions I'd love to ask him. Well, I can't do that now.

And as you said, we, yeah, sorry to interrupt. As you said, we are all, you know, flawed at every

level, to the core, all of us, isn't it? And we choose to show the parts of us to those that are

closest to us. And everyone has.

An element to them. It's, yeah, profound story the way that, as you said, you've been telling

stories all around the world. To have one so close to home that you didn't know about is quite

remarkable. I love what you've done, Anita, in the leadership space around mentoring women. And

I lifted off a whole range of actionable things that you do. You know, you look after and make

sure that people have a better opportunity and maybe an easier path than you've had.

When we sit down and talk to people like you,

I feel like there's some successfully clues, patterns around how people do have a successful

life. And we often start with this idea of self-leadership, but it's hard to actually

impact someone else without an idea of your own self-leadership. Does that make sense to you?

Yeah, it does. It does. I think self-leadership is actually living life with a purpose.

And I've always done that, actually, since I was fairly young. You know, I grew up in a household

where we did support, you know, those less privileged,

I think I mentioned my father was very successful. And so I was taught always to

support and help others that are less privileged than yourself. And I think I've applied that

throughout my life. And having a meaning and a purpose in life gives you a perspective on who

and what you are. And I think that's really for, you know, self-leadership, that's a really

important aspect of it. Having purpose and having purpose in leadership is really,

really important. And having purpose and meaning, you know, all feeds into one another,

but it comes directly from you as a leader and your personal values. And I think personal values

are getting increasingly important. I think, you know, in days gone by, we didn't really talk about

empathy and emotional quotient, and we might have talked about resilience and courage,

but we never talked about how you deal with people on an empathetic level. And I think increasingly,

what I'd call a human,

human principles of leadership are becoming more and more critical in the way that you

manage and interact with people. And that's why we love sharing these

stories in lots of ways, Anita, because, you know, empathy is a skill in some ways. Some

people are born with a lot of natural empathy, but you can practice it. You can actually

pass that on and want to, you know, particularly in a position of power to be more empathetic.

There's no downside to that at all. And your description is really apt. How do you go about

positively impacting others in your

environment? You've been in a lot of diverse environments, and we see people really conscious

now about the impact they have on everyone on a daily basis.

Oh, I think it's an attitude of caring. I mean, if I would walk into an office every day,

and whoever's sitting on the reception desk or wherever, I will always say, hello,

how are you? Just those simple things that show that you care about them. And I'll engage in

conversations, not just on a work level, but on a social level, so I understand how people are

feeling. I think

listening is a really important element of this. And I probably, because I've, you know,

worked with Andrew Denton and John Laws, and I've listened to great interviews,

the art of listening gets lost in a lot of leadership. It's not just hearing or thinking

that you're hearing what somebody's saying, but actually stepping back and trying to analyze what

they are really saying. And also the art of active listening, that, you know, the body language that

somebody's exhibiting is actually really interesting in probably, actually, I don't know,

showing you what they're not saying, as opposed to what they are saying. So I think there are some

certain leadership skills that are really important, that aren't hard to actually adopt in

your leadership style. And when you talk about empathy, I guess I'm fortunate in, or fortunate,

I've told stories with a lot of, in a lot of cases where there's been great tragedy,

and I've had to muster those skills of empathy and really apply them. For example, looking after

the families of the Ivermellat backpacker,

a case, you know, I looked after four of the families throughout three months of a trial here

in Sydney. That was one of the toughest things I ever worked on. Sitting in a court, hearing the

most appalling evidence day in, day out for three months, with four families and looking after those

families, you can't but not be empathetic to what they've experienced. And I think empathy comes

from actually understanding other people, and understanding that they are facing sometimes the

most horrendous of situations. And I think that's one of the things that I've worked on,

or less. It could be a drug and alcohol problem. It could be, you know, anything. You need to find

that empathy, and you need to learn to have empathy. And when we've all been in that situation,

that's what you want, isn't it, from those around you, is that just authentic sense that someone

cares. But clearly, you haven't done what you've done in your life, Anuta, without a clear vision

and a sense of purpose. How have you gone about sharing and creating that vision for your life

that has been pioneering, is the word I've used a couple of times.

Oh, look, I think I've always liked to look at innovation as a part of, you know, how am I going

to share a vision and create a vision. I was at one stage managing director of ITV, which is,

as you mentioned earlier, it's the Australian operation of the British conglomerate and,

you know, PLC company. And I walked in to start as managing director and found there was only

one commission, you know, which was only, was worth less than $2 million. We had a lot of

staff, a large number of contractors. So I immediately started to think, well, I have to

have a vision for this company. I have to actually have a strategic approach as a leader. And my

approach was literally to start hanging out the shingle to attract digital natives and creative

people, start building programs around known celebrities that networks would want to buy

programs from, you know, and featuring. I looked at the formats that ITV, not just me, it was with

a team. I don't want to take all the credit for this.

I worked with a team. We looked at some of the formats that ITV had internationally,

and we recognised that we could adapt them to the Australian marketplace. So I was providing

a vision and a direction on what this company could do. And as a result, we successfully,

I successfully sold I'm a Celebrity to 10, which is still on air today, and which has done very

well for 10. We sold The Chase to Channel 7, which turned Channel 7's fortunes around.

So it was coming in and looking at an organisation,

and thinking, how can I take this organisation, which was Morabund, to the next level by looking

at those forces about the digital world, about digitising assets, looking at those things that

you could do as a leader, but setting an example and actually provoking discussion and ideas,

creative ideas, and creating a hotbed for ideas. Because that's what, at the end of the day,

in my industry, it's all about ideas and creativity.

And the courage to get them, you know, to the line, isn't it?

It's a lot of fail. And then, as you said, there are a couple of huge transformative

success stories, I'm a Celebrity and The Chase for both those networks. But in a competitive space,

you can't have too many misses. And I always admire, as you said, the creative space of being

able to do that regularly, to me, is a skill that's really fascinating to understand. And

clearly, you've done a great job with that. We see leaders that have the success, like we've

just talked about with you, are really curious. And through curiosity, that's how they

think about constantly learning and get better. What do you think about curiosity?

Oh, I think it's, well, I'm a journalist. I go to a dinner party, and I never, it's interesting,

I'm sitting talking to you today, but I'll go to a dinner party, and I'll ask whoever's sitting

around me a thousand questions, but I'll never say anything. I think curiosity is really, really

vital. Because, I mean, if you're not curious about the world, curious about the people you

associate with, curious about the business that you're running, curious about being,

you know, a good leader, then how can we possibly succeed? Curiosity should be at the heart of

everything that we do.

Beautifully, beautifully said. You're in the communications business as well, and we see

now communicating with clarity is a skill that a lot of leaders are really passionate about.

That's been your stock standard trade from day one. How have you gone about it?

Well, communication to me is about telling stories. So it's really about informing and,

you know, entertaining audiences, but also it's really about listening. Again, what I was saying

earlier, in order to communicate, you need to listen, because you need to understand what

somebody is saying in order to communicate back to them. And as I said earlier, it's actually about

often what people are not saying rather than what they are saying. And look, I've been fortunate to

be involved with, you know, hundreds and hundreds of interviews from Bill Clinton to some of the

people that you named earlier. I've listened to some of the great communicators of the world,

communicate. They're very clear, they're very sharp, they're on message. They've got, you know,

what they're setting out to say, whatever that is, very clearly. And you can tell in interviews,

and I've listened to enough of them to know what that message is. So that's what communicating is

about. It's being able to actually talk to somebody on a one-on-one and come away and,

you know, really feel like you've both gained something from that communication, whatever that

is. I'm sorry, it sounds a bit naff, but I think...

I think communication's at the heart of everything that we do.

I agree wholeheartedly. And, you know, we love sharing the different perspectives on it,

isn't it, from someone that is in the communications industry, but it's overlooked

often in other spheres around just how much you can achieve by consistently communicating well

with your team or being, you know, informed. And you look at people in different areas and

different spaces. The ones that succeed consistently are really, really understanding.

You don't have to be a naturally great orator,

or, you know, come up with brilliant inspirational quotes, but it's just the

consistency of it, I think, in lots of ways, Anita, is a real pattern that we're seeing.

Likewise with collaboration. How important has collaboration been for you?

Oh, incredibly important. I mean, I've been fortunate to collaborate with some very

talented and creative people. I spent 10 years collaborating with Andrew Dent, and

that was one of... That was a fantastic partnership. You know, we collaborated on enough rope,

which was a very successful interview show. We collaborated on the Gruen Transfer,

which was a very innovative program. Can you imagine going to the ABC and trying to sell

a program on advertising when you've got a charter that says you can't have ads on the ABC?

It's genius, isn't it, Anita? I'd love to, sorry, just jump in there. And Gruen,

with my great old mate, Will Anderson as host, is still just brilliant. And, you know,

that creative idea that came out of your space with Andrew Dent, it's brilliant, isn't it? To take

to the ABC was such success. Worth pressing pause for a moment to understand how good that was.

Well, but I've got to say, Luke, it originally started, the Gruen Transfer originally started

as three one-hour documentaries. And then what we realised was there was so much material there,

it then became apparent that you could build a panel show. But yes, as I said,

going into pitch that day, the Gruen Transfer to the head of editorial policy and the director

of television, and they're sitting there looking at us, they're like,

this is brilliant. This is brilliant. This is brilliant. This is brilliant. This is brilliant.

15 years ago now, it's been on air. I think this is heading into its 15th season.

They just looked at us blankly, like, how could you possibly, how could we possibly

put ads on the ABC? But then they came around to recognising that what we were doing was actually

looking at the psychology of people and what advertising tells us about ourselves. And so

once we were able to flip it and show them, they embraced the idea straight away. And Will

Anderson has been absolutely fabulous as a host. He's a brilliant host. And

Yeah.

Russell Howcroft, I love those, the most passionate person about advertising,

having Russ sitting there on the ABC, brilliantly cast and a great piece of creativity.

And then who's been the greatest leader in your life?

The greatest leader, I think, probably a man called Kevin Weldon. Kevin Weldon,

to your audience, if they don't know of him, he formed and founded a company called Paul

Hamlins here in Australia. It was one of the largest book publishing,

publishing companies in Australia, extremely successful. And I worked with Hamlins when I

first came out of school. And Kevin was an incredibly entrepreneurial man. So I was about

18. And I started there and we were given mini minors and we were dressed up in outfits and

sent out to sell books because he was such an entrepreneurial character. But what he taught

me really was to always not to be afraid of risks at all. At 18, he gave us all an

assignment. There were eight of us, eight marketing trainees that he brought on straight

out of school. And the assignment was that we had to go and ring somebody important and set up an

interview and go and interview them. Now you can imagine at 18, I was pretty intimidated by that,

even having had a very strong father. I was given Sir Robert Norman, who was then the CEO of the

Bank of New South Wales, which is now the Westpac Bank. And I went home and I did all my research

and I spent an hour with Sir Robert Norman talking about the economy. I knew nothing,

about the economy, I've got to say. I just sat there and actually spent an hour talking to him.

What it taught me was that anybody's accessible. And Kevin Weldon gave me these great skills to

recognise resilience, courage, entrepreneurial, being entrepreneurial. He was just a terrific

boss to have at a young age in my life. And he informed a lot of my thinking about the way to

approach business and be a leader.

Yeah, what a great,

what a great idea, isn't it? Have an 18-year-old go and interview someone at that level of CEO of a

bank in that time. It must have been transformative. It can clearly set you on a path too, didn't it,

to securing interviews with people. As you said, everyone's human, everyone has got a story to tell

and why not with you? And that's formed a big part of your life. If you could collaborate with

anyone on anything, as you said, you have worked with Andrew Denton and John Laws and, as you said,

back to the Kerry Packer era.

Through Current Affair, has it been someone you thought, God, this would be in any area of your

life that you'd love to collaborate with?

Do you know who I wished I'd been able to collaborate with when he was much younger

was Sir David Attenborough. Because I just feel here he is, he's 95 or 96. And he had a recognition

about endangered species. And he had a recognition about the way that the planet was changing with

climate. And I wish we'd been able to tell that story about 30 years ago.

So when my collaboration is actually a retrospective of going back and being able to actually inform

people far earlier than we really started to become aware of this issue. And I think he was

one of the shining lights, both an endangered species and the nature of climate change. And

I would love to have collaborated with him to tell stories then in order to educate audiences

about how audiences, the whole of society, about how important these issues are.

Remarkable human being in every sense of the word.

And still creating incredible stories and wisdom around, as you said, someone that picked that

many, many, many years ago. Anita, it's a great story of yours. I love

listening to it, understanding the industry a little bit and what you were able to do to break

new ground for so many females. And what I love even more as much is just how you are passing

that on and in a really profound way of mentoring the next generation to break through what was a

challenging situation. And congratulations on all your work and your book is fantastic. Have a

look at it. It's genuinely worth a read, a great memoir and a fascinating, intriguing story along

the way. I couldn't believe the twist and turn. So thanks for joining me today.

Isn't it incredible? I mean, every chapter, every time I sat down to write a chapter,

I realised there was another story. So it's just, in some ways, as I said earlier,

it's really easily the hardest story I've told.

Secrets beyond the screen with Anita.

Jacoby, thanks for joining me today.

Luke, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

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