Ange Postecoglou Using Pressure To Achieve Success

A Listener Production.

G'day, it's Luke Darson.

The idea of self-improvement and leadership both on and off the field

has been a lifelong passion of mine.

With one of my oldest friends, we created a leader collective

and have had the privilege of working with thousands of leaders

in education, sport, industry and the arts

that have helped shift to what we see as the 21st century style of leadership

where everyone has a voice.

In this podcast, we hear stories from these iconic leaders.

Ange Postakoglou's history of success as a player and coach

in Australian soccer is unparalleled.

Born in Athens, Greece before emigrating to Melbourne, Australia

at the age of five, Ange's love and dedication to the World Game

has defined his life.

As a player for his beloved South Melbourne,

Ange played 200 games over nine years, twice winning the championship,

the second time as club captain.

At the ripe old age of 30, Ange's senior coaching career

began by leading South Melbourne to back-to-back NSL titles

for the first time.

In their history, following a seven-year stint

as the coach of the Australian youth teams,

Ange's coaching history is remarkable.

Back-to-back titles with the Brisbane Roar,

including a 36-game streak without loss

that stands as the longest undefeated period

in Australian sporting history.

As coach of the national team, he guided the Socceroos

to a win in the 2015 Asian Cup on home soil

following an outstanding campaign at the FIFA World Cup in Brazil 2014.

In 2019, Ange became the first Australian manager

to win a league title in the World Cup.

Ange won the league title in Japan with Yokohama.

And on the 10th of June 2021, Ange Postakoglu became

the manager of Scottish Premiership Club Celtic,

making him the first Australian manager to coach a major club in Europe.

In one of the most high-pressure jobs in world sport,

Ange in his first season coached Celtic to the title,

becoming the first Australian manager to win in Europe.

Ange, thanks for joining me.

Congratulations.

It feels on your life's work, but in particular,

the most recent success at Celtic.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All Australians feel incredibly proud of what you've achieved, mate.

Congratulations.

Yeah, thanks, Luke.

It's one of those, when you read it like that, you go,

oh, jeez, you know, he's had a great career.

But, mate, there's a lot of dips in there, you know,

that anyone who's in the game for any length of time realises that,

you know, people sort of tend to look at the peaks.

But, you know, when I think about particularly sort of,

not so much my playing career, but my sort of managing coaching career,

you know, there's been so many moments where,

it's been a grind and it's been tough.

And, again, even in every individual job that I've had,

that I've had the success even within that, you know,

and it's a bit, to be fair, that I love and embrace,

but it's also, you know, the most difficult bit that people tend to,

not dismiss, but when they talk about your career,

sort of tend to focus on, you know, those summits rather than the climbs.

Well, I want to speak to there is so much success,

and you're right, you do focus that.

And, you know, I know you've been in the open a bit,

certainly there's been periods where you were cast into the wilderness.

When you look back, remarkably as well, I keep using that word,

but I definitely want to ask you about that period after coaching the youth teams as well.

But could I go back to the start?

I mentioned the opening, you're born in Greece.

Your dad, from what I read, Ange, was running a successful business.

He came from a line of merchants, a furniture business.

And in 1969, the Greek nationalism of taking businesses and land back off those who own them,

forced your family's hand.

Mum and dad decide they're going to emigrate to Melbourne, Australia.

And reading about it, it was a pretty tough time for you as a kid.

Can you describe what it was like?

Yeah, it was.

Look, to be fair, it probably wasn't as tough for me as I've come to realise as it was for the family,

and particularly my parents.

Because as you said, it was, you know, life for them was, you know, fairly normal in Greece

and surrounded by family.

And friends, and I guess they had a sort of life plan sort of charted out for themselves.

But then, obviously, things changed and they had to make a decision.

And it was pretty much, it ended up being a decision between, I think,

South Africa and Australia as to our ultimate destination.

And not because of any sort of links.

It was just, you know, you're literally putting two pins into a globe and saying,

well, which one are we going to?

And, you know, my parents, at the time, Australia had a sort of a, you know, the immigration policy,

of bringing sort of migrants and migrant workers from, particularly from Europe.

And, you know, my dad made the decision that we'd go to Australia.

And, you know, when I think about it now, to go, sort of, that's halfway around the other side of the world.

And you're talking about on a boat for a month with, you know, without knowing a soul,

not really knowing where you're going to end up.

We ended up in Bonnegilla in, you know, in a refugee camp for sort of a period of time, which, again,

I have no recollection of.

I was five years old.

But I'm just thinking now, obviously, being a parent myself, and with two young boys as well,

was just how difficult that would have been.

And then we finally got allocated a family in Melbourne to sort of go and live with.

And we started then, and my childhood was, as I see it, pretty happy, you know.

I was a normal Melbourne kid.

I played, I loved my football, obviously, but I played Aussie rules.

I played cricket in the summer, and we were always outside, we were always playing.

But in the back, granted.

I always got the sense that, you know, from my mum and dad, it was a real tough existence,

you know.

My dad was constantly at work, just trying to scrape a living for us to get by.

And my mum, you know, she was forever either looking after us or doing part-time work or

shifts wherever she can, just to literally put food on the table.

And whilst it didn't sort of make an impact on me at that time, I think as I've got older,

it's had more of a profound impact on me.

And that you've got two individuals there, my mother and my father, who have actually

pretty much sacrificed their happiness and their sort of plans for the opportunity that

they can give their kids.

And that, to me, is obviously very significant.

Yeah, it's an incredible story, and it's probably, you know, maybe a fairly common migrant story

for families.

And you read about it, and you maybe, you know, when you haven't had that perspective,

you mentioned, you know, reading in preparation for this, it was a bit tougher for your older

sister who was 10, and your dad, without the language, trying to, you know, adapt to culture

in Melbourne, as you said, pre-internet days, pre-understanding anything, and really trying

to find your way.

You transition from there, and I read sort of seven to eight years of age, in your words,

soccer becomes, you know, the round ball game becomes your life and the center of the universe.

And it's based on really wanting to spend that time with your dad, and you would go

to the soccer.

And you felt like that was the only time that he was at ease for those two hours, that you

got to really connect with him.

Is that where the love of the game came from, Ronnie, to connect with your dad?

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's funny, because it's almost entwined with Australia's sort of football, soccer

sort of history, because 74 was when we made the World Cup for the first time, and that

was when I was just eight, nine years old.

That was about the same time.

So there's a real consciousness around soccer making an impact in Australia, but also the

impact it had on my family.

And that's what I'm really proud of.

And as I said, my dad kind of really struggled with life in Australia, he was a very sociable

kind of guy, he loved his soccer, you know, he didn't really understand life in Australia

that much.

There was not much he could relate to, because, you know, like I said, for the most part,

he was just working, and his pastime and the social aspect of his life pretty much disappeared.

So in the end, we were lucky enough that, you know, South Melbourne Hellas was sort

of a, even though it was a soccer club, it was more than that.

It was a conduit, it was a social gathering of people who were having similar sort of

experiences in life.

Because like you said, the migrant stories, my migrant story is not unique, especially

in Australia, it's quite common, and every time I tell a story or when I write my book,

so many people come up and said, well, that was my upbringing, that was exactly what I

went through, you know?

And Hellas ended up being, you know, like I said, a social hub where, you know, you've

got the culture, you've got the, you've got the culture, you've got the culture, you've

got the culture, you've got the culture.

And you know, you've got the culture, you've got the culture, you've got the culture.

On a Sunday, people like my father, who probably are struggling through the day-to-day, even just speaking, you know, just being able to have a conversation with people about whether it's their problems or just life in general.

That sort of got left at the gate as soon as we bought our ticket, went through the turnstiles and you could smell the souvlaki.

So even the smells you got were really sort of, for my dad anyway, he just brought this consciousness of back home, his home.

And I sort of saw that and I saw how passionate he was about the game and how alive he became.

And I figured out that, OK, well, because I was desperate to get close to my father, even though I couldn't spend much time with him, I thought, well, here's definitely something that he's really interested in.

And at the same time, I kind of got the bug the other way and he kind of recognised, well, hold on, if I want to keep my son really close to me, he goes, I can't.

I can't.

I can't.

I can't put him in the local cricket club or the local Aussie rules club because I won't understand those people.

If he can love this game, at least I'll put him in a soccer club where, again, that social network existed, you know.

So it was so much more than just a choice of sports for me.

It wasn't because I loved them all, you know.

People know I'm a massive Carlton fan.

I love my cricket.

You know, I was big into cricket back then.

But like all kids in Melbourne, you know.

But he couldn't put me in those environments.

He didn't understand them.

So.

So soccer ended up becoming the social glue for our family in many respects, our connector.

And all the significant relationships I've had and even my parents had after that in terms of friendships and close networks, all pretty much, 95% of them came from that club.

And I read, Ange, that often you would sit around with your dad and the old man, I think you described them as, that would dissect the game and argue about the umpire.

And debate the tactics.

And you're seven or eight, your mates are out there playing, but you wanted to sit there on, you know, dad's lap or next door.

Was that where your sort of understanding of how you were going to approach the game, your coaching, do you think it stems back from those conversations in some ways?

Yeah, I kind of try and think about that, you know, what made me be that different.

And it wasn't just, you know, my dad certainly noticed it because he would see, and even my mates would say, you know, like I said, they'd be out playing.

I'd be sitting there wanting to hear them dissect the game.

I just became really passionate and fascinated by every aspect of the game, not just playing it.

I mean, obviously I love playing it, but I just got really enraptured in this understanding that, you know, the game didn't finish at the final whistle, you know, there was more.

And sometimes the best bits came after the final whistle, you know, when the debates would start about the numerous, you know, refereeing decisions.

That were wrong or the coaches' decision-making.

And I used to love it, you know, I used to really sort of get engrossed in it.

And I wasn't really a contributor.

I just, because like I said, I was eight years old and these guys, you know, there's 40-year-old men sort of dissecting it.

But I think that's where, like I said, my passion and obsession for the game became, I mean, that's the early seeds of it, where it wasn't just, oh, this is a game I'm going to play, I'm going to love.

It went beyond that.

This was something that was going to, I had a pretty good idea early on, was going to consume me.

When you look, and I love this story, you're a 12-year-old Paran High and you're the captain and the coach of your 12-year-old team.

I find that incredible.

And in some ways, you know, when you write about it, it makes sense because you were probably the first generation coming through.

You're wearing the old Australian rules, woolen jumpers that would get wet and you'd be freezing cold and the sleeves off, you didn't have to have the right uniforms.

But the fact that you had that sense of leadership.

At 12, that you were comfortable coaching your own mates, that is pretty out there for that age.

Where did that come from?

I wrote about that in my book.

I think just as bizarre for me was not the fact, just the fact that I sort of stepped into the breach and saw that, okay, I wanted to do this, I wanted to organise things.

But the other 12-year-olds or 11-year-olds decided to kind of follow.

That to me still kind of, I don't understand it.

And it wasn't, you know, like I said, the coach of our team.

The coach of our team was the music teacher.

Because again, you know, in our school at Paran High at the time, yeah, the footy team, because we were just down the road from Paran VFA Club, two blues, they were massive.

And there's a really strong Aussie rules kind of culture in the club.

And so they got everything, including the coaches.

So when it came to assigning the coach for the soccer team, it was like, well, which teacher's got some spare time and end up being the music teacher?

I had no idea.

And, you know, we'd end up training and he'd be doing marketing.

We'd be doing our homework on the sidelines, you know, and he was, and it was a typical muso as well.

I wasn't even interested in sport.

It wasn't even like just soccer he wasn't interested in.

So, you know, I kind of made a decision, okay, I'm going to, all this stuff that I've been sitting there listening, sitting in my dad's lap, listening to all these guys talk about the game, I'm going to take over.

And I mean, I was, obviously I was one of the better players, which kind of helped.

But it wasn't like I was a kind of a real dominant personality outside of that, like in the schoolyard.

I was.

You know, I was, I was a sporty kid and, you know, I had, I was, you know, I had a lot of mates and everything, but I wasn't the leader in any sense.

But when it came to football, it just seemed, A, it seemed a natural fit for me that I would do this and that for some reason, like I said, the other 11, 12 year old boys who were just as unruly as anyone, any other 11, 12 year old boys, all of a sudden were kind of going, okay, well, tell us what we're going to do and let's do it.

I mentioned your playing career, very successful to win.

You're in a very competitive National Soccer League at the time, you're captain of a title, you're playing a second title as well.

But, you know, the words you used, I think that you're always a coach masquerading as a player.

Did that sense, even when you were playing, that your destiny was to lead teams from a coaching perspective?

Yeah, I don't know why, but I got the sense fairly early on in my career that the kind of dreams and ambitions that I had for what I wanted to do the game.

I wasn't going to, I wasn't going to satisfy it as a player because I just felt that I was limited.

And I kind of look back on it now and I think, well, I almost sort of predetermined my own destiny because, you know, you know what it's like, you know, if you don't have that self-belief as a player, and I talk about the players all the time, if you kind of put a ceiling on what you can achieve, you're almost, well, you're restricting yourself to that ceiling.

And it's almost like I did that with myself, you know, even though, you know, I got to play for the national team, I think I was only 21 when I made my debut for the Socceroos.

So there was a career there and I had a couple of opportunities to go overseas and play and which didn't quite work out.

So there was a career there where I think I could have sort of got more out of it than I did.

But like I said, I almost put a ceiling on myself that, okay, now this is just a precursor to what I really want to do.

And as, you know, fate would have it and sort of life kind of throws these things at you, I ended up getting a pretty significant knee injury when I was 25 and by 27, you know, I kind of knew that, you know, I was done and dusted and sort of the coaching career kicked off.

Andrew, I mentioned the incredible success that's followed everywhere that you've gone, but you also were very quick to point out off the top that there's challenge.

And I go back to, you spent seven years as the national youth coach.

There's a lot of success and then you're unceremoniously sacked from that role.

And, you know, I read, I think your words were that at the time you felt that you were never more capable as a coach.

You never had more understanding of what was going to be.

You're at the very top of the curve, I think were the words you used, but the curve collapsed from underneath you.

I mean, how tough was that period where really no one would really come after you for a coaching role?

Yeah, look, in a sort of, I mean, my first sort of coaching, he was 97, 98.

So it's almost 25 years now.

The most difficult time for me, and I've had sort of challenging periods while I've been coaching, is that period when I wasn't.

And it was probably like a sort of eight to 12 month period.

And as you said, I felt that the seven years I've had as national youth coach was almost, it was my PhD in coaching because I kind of used it as a vehicle for not just, you know, obviously doing the job I was assigned to do.

But because of the uniqueness of the role.

I had where, you know, we ended up qualifying for six World Cups during that time because the World Cups were every two years and I was coaching two teams.

So I ended up going to six underage World Cups where I saw the best in the world at development level.

I was lucky enough to travel the world.

I made a point wherever I went to educate myself to stay longer and talk to people.

So I was just gathering all this information and it was sort of crystallizing in my mind that I either kind of.

Football, I wanted my team to play, the kind of leader I wanted to be, the kind of environment I wanted to set.

So it's kind of, you know, I've done this as I said, sort of like a PhD in coaching.

I get to the end of it.

And because again, of the perception that I wasn't successful, then particularly the time in Australia where, you know, here in particularly in Europe and in my game anyway, in soccer, you know, getting sacked is not, is not terminal.

It's just part of the journey of any coach.

You know, and if anything, you, people see that, oh, well, he's learned from that.

So you get another opportunity.

But in Australia at the time, it was like, well, you know what?

He's failed.

That's it.

He's time's done that.

It also coincided with the A-League just launching.

And there was, there was a real sort of attempt at the time to leave the game's history behind and start with a new chapter.

And almost all got lumped in with the, with kind of the history of the game rather than what was ahead.

And so there was a, there was a, there's a, you know, a whole sort of set of.

Circumstances that meant, you know, I remember going for a couple of jobs, even as an assistant coach and not even getting a look in, you know, and, and I thought at the time, geez, you know, this is, this is going to be tough because, and again, it's, it's kind of something I learned from and I grew and I'm using it today that it's not just about having the knowledge and having the desire, you know, everything, most things in life are about opportunity.

Somebody's got to be able to open that door for you or else, you know, you don't get.

An opportunity to put that into practice.

And, you know, I was lucky that there was a certain set of circumstances that brought it together.

Now, my belief is that irrespective at some point, I would have got back on the horse and I was, I was super confident that I'd have success.

I'd have a career.

I was never in fear of that, but where that was going to be and how that was going to come about, that uncertainty was a little tough period.

And there was a memorable exchange at the time too, with Craig Foster, that's been much reported.

Yeah.

And that,

you know, it was pretty brutal in, in coming after you, the former Soccer Ruin commentator at the time.

I mean, there was a thought that that was a really, almost made you unemployable post that.

Was that how you felt about it at the time?

Yeah, it was.

No, it was, it was a fact.

I mean, there was one job I went for and for an A-League job and got down to me and another candidate.

And in the end, the decision was made to go for the other candidate because the owner of the club was alerted to this, you know,

because it's, it's obviously,

you know, on YouTube, this interview I did and, and that kind of put him off that I was kind of, you know,

not the kind of person that they would want associated with their football club.

So, so yeah, so it was, it was, and, and, and again, again, that was part of, you know, I've said at the time, I didn't, I, I didn't like it.

I didn't like the way it was done.

You know, I wasn't appreciative of the way it was sort of set up.

I kind of already knew when I did the interview that,

you know, my tenure as, as youth coach was over anyway, I kind of, I was moving on, but, you know,

Foz at the time was really passionate about football.

You know, when I look back on it now, I think it's two guys having a passionate debate about something they love from coming from different angles.

But at that time, because the football community was so small, the soccer community was so small that, you know, I thought, well, you know,

I don't, I didn't think it was fair that my, everything I've done in the game was kind of tarnished in that moment.

Now, the one thing I,

I always did though, was that irrespective of circumstances, I was in, I always fronted up, you know, I, I never, I never shied away from, from interviews or, or, you know, whether that's the press or, or, or talking to people when it came, even at the most difficult of moments, I felt, you know, you know, I want to be there.

So I could have very easily dodged that interview because I knew it wasn't going to go great.

But, you know, that's part of who I am is that I always front up and it didn't, it didn't come out, didn't paint me in a great light.

But, you know, that's part of who I am is that I always front up and it didn't, it didn't come out, didn't paint me in a great light.

But, you know, that's part of who I am is that I always front up and it didn't, it didn't come out, didn't paint me in a great light.

And like I said, in the short term, it certainly hampered my ability to, to, to get a job.

But again, that's, I guess that's where the growth comes in that you, you survive things like that and you kind of understand that, you know, as I said, nothing is terminal in terms of your career.

There's always an opportunity to, to, to get back up and go again.

Yeah, it's interesting the way you describe it.

You look back and I have done that and looked at the interview and, you know, in the other codes in Australia, those exchanges happen all the time.

You're right, you know, and, and, and they're reported and you move on, but maybe, you know, you write very passionately about, you know, soccer's hindrance in lots of ways by the codes here.

And that was an example, wasn't it?

To have someone with all that experience, all of your history of success, to, to, to, to think that the, the community of soccer and would not want to tap into that is, is almost bizarre.

And I suppose, as you said, it's, it's, it's spawned this incredible period that has come after it.

I love reading, Ang, you talk a lot about the idea and your sense of purpose and everything that you do, that there needs to be some deep immersion in what your story is and that you write about, you know, that you feel like if it wasn't soccer, then that would be something you pursue in other aspects of your life.

Can you, can you describe a bit more about what you mean and where that, that sense of purpose comes from?

Look, I'm just, again, probably because of.

My experiences and my life experiences, like I've always felt that there's, you know, for me, there's something more meaningful to life than just chasing, you know, the, the, the goal that, that, that's the end of a, of a rainbow.

To me, it's always been about, I don't know, I've always been attracted to stories, whether that's in sport or in life in general, that have a much deeper purpose.

And they seem to be the most significant.

Things that people hold onto that, that the sort of a generational, you know, that many people have success in different ways, but the ones that get remembered are the ones that have a higher purpose or a deeper meaning for what they do.

And I've always felt that almost an obligation that the game itself gave me in many respects, the life I have is that, you know, whatever I do, I want to.

You know, with the people I share the journey with is give them, give them something more to hold onto than just chasing success or just trying to be, you know, making money or chasing fame.

All those things are important and they're all byproducts, but it's to be, to sense like you're part of something special, something that will stay beyond, you know, that, you know, whatever period you're in at that time.

So everything I've done, I've tried to, at the core of it, be well, you know.

In the most basic of terms, I'm not chasing the victory at the weekend, that, that, that is almost the last thing on, on, even though it's, it's the most important thing for me to continue to do what I do.

It's the last thing I talk about because I want people to feel like they're, they're doing something more meaningful than that.

They're doing something more meaningful and more purposeful than just trying to win a, win a contest on the, on, on the weekend because everyone wants to win.

Everyone wants to be, you know.

You know, get that victory and, and that's really been an important part of kind of everything I've done is that at the end of it, I want to be able to say that I was part of something that people still talk about, you know, and for that to happen, it can't just be success because success, you know, many people have, have, you know, are able to, to attain that.

And, you know, for me, that's the, that's always been the most important drive.

And, and what I do, every challenge I've taken on and everything I kind of do, particularly in my professional life, you kind of want to transfer it to, to your personal life as well.

But that becomes even more challenging in many respects because, you know, when you have a family, you have, you know, your wife or your partner and, and, and, and, you know, they've got their own ambitions and, and you've got to make sure you're not trying to impart, impart your own sort of journey onto them.

So, but for the most part, there are core values.

Yeah.

That, that, you know, transfer both, particularly in my professional life, the anchor of everything I do is to have a purpose beyond just trying to be successful.

Yeah.

And you, it's, you hear coaches talk about the process rather than the outcome, but, you know, yours sounds like a really deeper feeling than that.

And, and, you know, you look at what you've done and it's been multiple titles.

It's been breaking new ground.

You know, you listen to the intro, taking on challenges that haven't been achieved before.

and Australian coach, is that the sort of detail?

I mean, for people to understand that and relate that to their life,

is that your mind is going not just to doing what others have done before?

And how do you impart that on your players?

How do you share that with them?

Yeah, and you're right because it is process-driven,

but, you know, it's such a dry word, particularly in sport,

when you're talking about passionate people, you know,

that if you walk into a room of, you know, sort of athletes

and you're just talking about processes and, you know,

you'll lose them after a while, but ultimately that's what it is about.

It is about the process.

It's about creating an environment where the end result should take care

of itself if we go through these steps.

But, you know, for me to bring that to life, and like you said,

what I've tried to do my whole career is really challenge myself

and put myself in positions where, you know,

whether that was professional or professional,

whether that was professional or professional,

whether that was a club level, international level,

internationally, you know, in different cultures,

is how do I get those processes to come to life into something that,

you know, people that I'm in that room with can resonate to

and understand and appreciate?

And so invariably you end up becoming a storyteller,

and that's what I think I've sort of honed my craft into becoming,

into telling a story.

That people who are sometimes coming from totally,

particularly when I think about Celtic,

where I've got guys from all over the world

who have had totally different life experiences,

is to tell a story that they all have interest in, you know?

And again, it can't just be that we're going to be champions

because they've heard that story before

and they can walk into any dressing room in any sport and hear that.

It's how do I tell a story that they all can relate to,

and they all want to be a part of,

and they all are really interested in what the next page has,

and what potentially the ending may look like,

because you can't, you know, talk about the ending.

And, you know, if you can tell that story in a real sort of vivid way

where it almost becomes a living thing,

then, you know, when I've had success, you know,

sometimes from being the narrator,

I end up just being somebody who's living,

who's listening because I can hear the words being spoken

by the playing group and the other coaches

and everyone I'm involved with.

And, you know, within that, there's so much detail, obviously,

because there's the technical aspects, there's the tactical aspects,

there's the management of people, there's all these other things,

but the core essence of it, even with that, is, well,

this highly skilled group of people, of players and staff,

what I'm hoping is that the story I'm telling,

they've all bought into it.

And I want to sort of take it to the end point.

The Celtic story, Ange, there's nothing dry about that.

That is full of passion and even your courage to take on that role.

I described it as arguably the hottest coaching seat in world sport in lots of ways.

And for those listening, Ange, that don't understand,

and I've got to admit, I sat next to Eddie Maguire for 11 years

as a Scottish immigrant with a Scottish father as a Celtic supporter.

And I...

Even through him, you know, the legend of Old Firm Games

and understanding it and then just his passion for it,

I've followed, you know, the history of what happens with Celtic and Rangers

and then you watch it and you see and hear the atmosphere of just the passion.

It's almost like nothing I've ever seen in world sport

and had the pleasure of being international and seeing some big events.

But can you describe to the audience just how passionate, you know,

coaching Celtic is and what the fans and the supporters are like?

Yeah, and it is unique, Luke.

Because, I mean, again, growing up in Australia,

we really are passionate about our sport.

And, you know, I think that's what I loved about, you know,

and I was lucky that my dad ended up choosing Australia as our destination,

was that I grew up in a sport-loving nation.

You know, we love our sport.

We're passionate about it.

It was so much a part of my upbringing as a kid.

And so many of my...

My values are entwined with sport.

But, you know, Celtic in Glasgow, it goes beyond that

because for the people who love that football club,

they're not supporters.

They're not fans, you know.

It's not for them that, you know, they look forward to a game.

For them, it's part of their life.

It's as much a part of their life.

It's an extended family member.

And I'm not talking about a distant family.

But this is a family member that they bring into their household

that sits at the dinner table with them, that organises their year,

organises their, you know, their significant moments.

You know, so when we're getting the fixture list out on Friday

and, you know, people will map out their whole year,

the next 12 months around the fixture list.

And that's because it's generational.

That's been passed down from, you know, great-grandparents

to great-grandparents to fathers.

And sons and mothers and daughters.

And for that, then you walk into that and understand that everything I do,

whether that's not just in a game sense, but every time I speak

or every time, you know, I'm seen or I'm heard from,

has an impact on each and every household.

It's massive.

And then you put the expectations because it is a league where, you know,

when you look at it at the moment, it's Rangers and Celtic

that have been the most.

It's dominant by far.

Clubs and people think, oh, well, at least you're guaranteed, you know,

you're going to be successful.

But what people don't understand is that finishing second in this league is,

you may as well finish last.

It's not well done, you know, you got close.

Second is not.

So every year the expectations are you will win and you will be successful.

So all that sort of encompassed is, it is.

It's probably one of the most sort of high-profile pressurised positions,

in terms of the football club.

The flip side of that is I love it, you know, I mean,

that's, that's what I've always wanted.

And my frustrations with Australia and Australian soccer was,

it was always been that it wasn't the people who loved the game or the people

who hated the game.

It was the apathy that sort of landed in between,

which was probably the biggest part of it was that most people just didn't care.

You know, I mean, even when people had crack at soccer in Australia,

I, I kind of, I didn't mind that because, okay, that's,

that's somebody being passionate about it and the ones who love it in Australia,

you know, even that there was, you know, we weren't even a united voice in that,

but that I could live with that.

But it was the apathy in between that people just didn't care that it just would

churn in my guts because I love this thing.

This was my passion.

So now to be right smack bang in the centre of it,

it almost like this is where I was supposed to end up at some point in my career.

You arrive on the way over there.

And it's,

and Jim pasta,

cod glue.

And who's this Australian,

Greek migrant coming to,

to coach the famous Celtic.

You came as is the want with,

with that.

And then you've delivered the title in the,

in the first year.

And,

and as you said,

you described it beautifully,

but you know,

we'll play some of the crowd just to get a sense of what it's like.

Can you share with some of the links that fans go do to get into games?

There there's legendary stories in there.

I mean,

it helps back obviously to the religious divide dividing in Glasgow,

isn't it?

The Celtic Catholic and the Protestants and,

and you know,

there was sectarian violence,

you know,

historically,

but now it's just this next level of,

of intensity,

isn't it?

That's represented on the sporting field,

but people will do anything,

won't they?

To get to it,

to get to a guy.

Yeah,

absolutely.

But I think,

you know,

I think with each club as well,

but when,

when,

when you look back at Celtic story,

part of the,

the,

the sort of passion for the football club is like I said,

I,

as I've spoken sort of on my journey in coaching,

there's a deeper purpose to the club.

It was actually a club very similar to South Melbourne that was born out of,

you know,

feeding the poor,

the Irish immigrants who had come to Glasgow.

That was the purpose of,

of making this football club.

So that is there constantly.

It's a constant reminder to you because there are images and,

and the stories told all the time of,

there is a greater purpose to this football club than just winning titles,

even though that's what we want to do.

And that's obviously the end goal.

And,

and,

and so,

you know,

when people attach themselves or,

or,

you know,

when people are part of that football club,

they're,

like I said,

they're in it wholly,

you know,

it's not just,

like I said,

this is not a,

them deciding whether they're going to go to a game on the weekend.

This is,

this is,

this is who they are.

So,

you know,

having a season ticket at Celtic is,

is,

is like gold.

It's,

it's,

you know,

it's Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory,

mate.

It's,

it's that golden ticket that no,

you know,

that everyone wants.

And,

and,

you know,

if you've got one,

you're not going to be giving it away too easily.

You know,

so season tickets,

you know,

we could probably sell out Celtic Park,

you know,

two or three times over.

So,

you know,

when,

when there's that sort of,

so,

I mean,

the rivalry stuff is always there,

but I think each club has its own sort of story to tell.

And,

and from Celtic's perspective,

it's a really compelling,

strong story that,

that,

that goes beyond them just being a sporting institution.

And,

and again,

that's what,

you know,

is the uniqueness of the,

that club that you will get somebody like Eddie,

like I said,

you know,

a boy who grew up in Brodie,

Broadmeadows,

as AFL centric and Collingwood centric as possible.

But because of the stories,

I'm sure his father told him about Celtic,

he's probably as passionate as anyone living in

Glasgow and that,

that that's,

that's a global sort of perspective because I,

I get messages from all around the world,

you know,

from,

from,

from Celtic supporters who are absolutely as passionate.

They will get up at any time of the day to watch the

football club play.

I've sort of had the,

the privilege from afar of seeing you,

Ange,

collaborate in something that my great friend,

Matt Waterwitz and I are passionate about Leader Connect.

And,

and you've been generous enough to,

to over a fairly extended period of time,

to collaborate with a range of different coaches.

Luke Beveridge,

who coaches the Bulldog Premiership coach in 2016.

Brian Gorgian,

legendary Australian basketball coach.

Neil Craig,

whose history in sport and also now with alongside Eddie Jones,

they're both at English Rugby.

Eddie, the head coach of,

of English Rugby.

Can you,

can you share with us a little bit about,

as someone who's leading your own organisation and got a busy schedule,

why it's important for you to,

to reflect with other,

other peers?

Yeah,

it's,

it's been great to be fair.

And,

and,

and as you said,

it's one of those things where,

you know,

we're also,

I mean,

look,

I'm,

I'm,

I'm on holidays at the moment,

but I'm,

I'm talking to you and,

you know,

after this,

I've got a call with the guys at the club.

So,

you know,

in our life,

the football or managing or coaching is not,

you know,

it's not an occupation.

It's a lifestyle choice.

So,

so how you use your time is really important.

There's nothing more valuable that we've got in,

in our arsenal and sort of time.

And so when things come along to you and think,

well,

should I put amount of time,

a lot of amount of time to this?

Is it going to be worthwhile?

You got to really put a lot of thought into it.

And I remember when Matt sort of,

you know,

reached out and I think for yourself,

Luke,

that,

you know,

listening to the people who were going to be involved,

I,

I just thought,

you know what,

at the time I was coaching Yokohama and it was just,

I think pretty sort of pandemic,

but,

but being in,

in Japan,

I,

I kinda,

you know,

being in a country where,

you know,

obviously language not being not been able to communicate as

easily as I went back home.

I thought,

well,

you know what,

this will give me a chance to at least connect still with

people and have conversations around what I do.

And I,

and I,

and I was really intrigued with the group of people we had

together,

you know,

I hugely admired sort of what Luke did with,

with the Bulldogs.

You know,

I kinda,

I actually visited the Bulldogs pre Luke was in there.

I think the year before I'd been by down for a couple of

days.

You know,

because of that,

I kind of followed the path and watching him when the

premiership was outstanding.

And Brian,

I remember from,

you know,

the big NBL days,

I was a big Melbourne Tigers fan,

mate.

And,

you know,

Lindsay and,

and Andrew guys were,

were,

were big in Melbourne at the time.

And,

and Gorge was,

was coaching,

like the giants and,

and basketball was massive.

So he was someone I got,

he'd be really intriguing.

I knew he'd spent time in China,

which,

you know,

was kind of going to be interesting for me.

Eddie's,

you know,

well known.

And,

and again,

so I'd read his books.

So I kind of knew he was an intriguing character.

He'd spent time in Japan.

It was just a really good group.

And Craigie,

Craigie,

I'd be lucky enough to,

to come across when I was coaching Melbourne Victory,

because he was at Melbourne Footy Club of the Demons.

And we shared the same training facility at Amy Park.

And again,

another guy who always found really interesting and really

passionate.

So it is just a good group of guys.

I thought at the initial,

but you never know how these things go.

And I'm always worried about,

you know,

becoming too structured and sort of having,

you know,

sort of some kind of agenda.

As soon as I hear a gender in meetings and stuff,

mate,

I'm gone.

I'm out of there,

you know?

So,

but it ended up being really good and,

and just a real good discussion.

I think,

you know,

I was listening to your podcast with Eddie and I think Eddie

probably described it best.

He described something like alcoholic anonymous,

where you just go in and you kind of purge your sins and,

and,

you know,

we can talk really freely.

And that was a good thing about all the guys was that it

was almost like,

you know,

a,

a,

a get smart cone of silence that,

you know,

what we can say,

whatever we want in here and,

and it'll be safe.

And,

and because of that,

it was just,

it's just great that obviously you just talk about your most

recent experiences.

And obviously when you're connected,

you're following the other guy's journeys and you might pick

up something that they've been through and you can ask them

questions.

I think we all appreciate the fact that,

you know,

we're able just to connect with people who are,

you know,

in a,

in a similar line of,

of sort of work,

but,

you know,

experiences.

And for me,

that's where growth lies for me now.

I mean,

I'm kind of 56 and,

and obviously I've been coaching for 25 years and,

you know,

great for me now becomes if I can keep growing as a

person by just trying to gain as much knowledge as I

can and,

and listening to as many people as I can and,

and still trying to stay relevant to today's world and,

and today's people,

you know,

particularly young people who I deal with every day,

that's where my sort of growth comes.

It won't,

my ability to stay in the game will come from,

from being able to connect with people like that,

rather than sort of,

you know,

go through,

you know,

whether it's courses or doing things that are more sort of

structured.

I think that's,

that's where kind of my evolution continues to.

We just need to teach Eddie Jones how to say pasta

coglou.

Angie had some troubles with that from my recollection of the,

of the interview with him.

Unbelievable, man.

Unbelievable.

Unbelievable.

I've only known him for the last two and a half years.

And,

and,

and,

and,

and to be fair,

like Matt,

you know,

whether it's gorgon or beverage,

they just roll off his tongue with pasta coglou.

Just,

he struggles with it.

It's all right.

I,

I did mention that quite a few times the last time I caught

up.

We sort of are passionate again on the idea that people,

clearly you,

you met people at the,

at your level and it's been,

it sounds like a beneficial experience and it's great that it's still going.

But the idea that you do connect with people and reflect and,

and,

and as you said,

the learning and your growth coming from these in-person,

um,

forums,

effectively,

is,

is something that we think,

uh,

is applicable to everyone,

regardless of whether you're the,

the head coach itself.

Do you,

do,

would you subscribe to that?

Would you see that as a beneficial thing for people to,

to,

uh,

to,

to do what you're doing regularly?

Yeah,

I think so.

And I think it goes beyond that.

And,

and I,

I was really,

I mean,

I,

I,

when I first started it,

um,

you know,

particularly in a,

in a coaching leadership sense,

I,

I,

I've always been a real kind of guy who,

you know,

has,

you know,

likes to have control of things.

I kind of like,

you know,

I'm,

I'm pretty strong on,

on setting the environment,

making decisions.

I empower people absolutely,

um,

you know,

within the organization.

But in terms of my own,

um,

sort of reflection and ability,

I,

I've kind of gone through my career,

um,

pretty much doing it myself.

And that's where I'm most comfortable.

I,

I haven't needed a sanding board.

I haven't needed a,

you know,

somebody within the organization to,

to kind of bounce things off or to,

you know,

I've,

I've always managed to,

to do that myself and felt really comfortable in that space.

But what I've come to realize is that sport and life has changed.

Yeah.

And if I was starting my journey again,

the one thing I would do,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and it's interesting being part of the group and particularly,

you know,

the role in,

within an organization of being,

you know,

a sanding board to somebody like an Eddie,

Eddie talks about it often that he uses Craigie in that sense is that I think in today's world where the attention and the saturation of,

you know,

opinions that are out there that potentially you have to deal with in a leadership role,

the more avenues you have to be able to,

um,

you know,

go through those thought processes of how to deal with them.

And the more support you have,

I think the more chance you'll have a success,

you know,

or having a career in the game,

because I just think there's going to be a huge burnout factor.

If anyone tried to do it the way I've done it,

I don't know if you can in today's kind of world,

the way it's set up where,

you know,

you,

you can't,

unless you've got really good sounding boards,

people who you can,

um,

sort of,

reflect and deflect from in terms of the,

whatever issues you may have and,

and not carry that burden yourself,

the more chances you have that you'll,

it'll be sustainable.

Um,

I,

I,

you know,

whether it's players today or,

or,

or,

you know,

like I said,

um,

coaches,

it's,

it's,

it's so much,

you know,

a much more intense environment we're all in nowadays.

Now,

like I said,

I'm pretty good at shutting things out,

you know,

I can shut social media out,

I can shut,

um,

you know,

sort of unwanted noises wherever they're coming from pretty easily,

mate.

I've heard it all in my career and it doesn't really affect me,

but,

you know,

if I was starting out today,

trying to manage all that,

um,

without having some sort of network of people,

whether that's within the organisation you're working with or external that can help you through those processes would be,

would be tough.

So,

um,

I certainly,

you know,

with the,

the,

the,

you know,

I've tried to do that myself in,

in many respects,

you know,

there's a lot of the coaches I've worked with who are now sort of doing their own thing.

I've always,

without it being anything formal,

I've always tried to be,

again,

mentor was not the right word,

but a bit of a sounding board for them.

Um,

you know,

guys that I've worked with in the past that every time,

and sometimes it's just saying,

G'day,

you know,

just sending out a text and saying,

how are you?

And I'll get on the phone with them and,

and,

and,

you know,

we chat about it for half an hour.

I think that allows perspective,

um,

that,

you know,

if you try and deal with it by yourself and sort of do it the way I've done it,

you know,

in sort of my career,

um,

it just wouldn't,

like I said,

it wouldn't be sustainable.

You,

you'd find yourself sort of burning out pretty,

uh,

pretty quickly.

Yeah.

Brilliant.

Uh,

thanks for sharing that.

And I,

and I will give a,

a quick plug because we are,

uh,

we're going to inform,

uh,

these groups.

So if you are interested,

uh,

you can check that out at,

at Alita.

Matt and I are really passionate about the,

the power of,

uh,

of that reflective leadership that Ange described,

uh,

so brilliantly.

Don't feel like I can go past,

uh,

a quick mention,

uh,

the Socceroos have just qualified again for the World Cup in spectacular fashion.

And,

uh,

Andrew Redmayne is the,

the John Aloisi,

it seems,

of,

uh,

of 2022.

It's a,

it's a,

a.

It's an opportunity for Ange and I,

uh,

yours gran Martel,

uh,

to plan,

uh,

months in advance that he was a,

a penalty specialist as,

as a keeper,

and to sub him in,

you know,

a minute sub out the captain.

I,

I know,

uh,

you coached Andrew,

uh,

for a short time I think when you were at,

at Brisbane.

At Brisbane,

yeah.

Yeah,

great,

great story,

isn't it?

Uh,

Ange to get the Socceroos through the World Cup again but in,

in that fashion.

You know, I've sort of described to you how passionate people in Scotland are.

They haven't been to a World Cup since, I think the last one was 98.

You know, they just missed out in the playoffs.

They're desperate to get to a World Cup.

And this is our fifth.

And I sometimes think we just take it for granted that, you know,

every World Cup campaign is a grind to get there.

And we should celebrate that fact, you know,

and whether it's whatever means we got through.

And, you know, this time we got through on penalties, as you said,

that that achievement of getting to a World Cup should never be dismissed.

It's what, you know, the beautiful thing about the Australian game has,

it's Australian soccer, which I think is entwined a little bit

in that Australian sporting spirit,

is that ability to constantly sort of punch above your weight

and the ability to take on anybody and everybody without fear.

You know, it's...

It's such a great sort of embodiment of who we are as a nation

and particularly for football.

So, you know, I was wrapped.

And like I said, I did coach Redders when I was at Brisbane for a little while.

He's had an interesting sort of coaching journey.

And that's the beauty of sport.

You know, when I talk about, you know, stories,

who could have written that script?

Because, I mean, you can plan for that,

but you've got to be planning for the game to finish sort of

at a tight end of the game for you to make that move.

And you can't write that.

It's all on this for Peru.

Alex Balera.

It's the one.

They are in Qatar.

Chance.

But no.

A fifth consecutive World Cup

as the cheers for Graeme Arnold turn to cheers.

If you did write that script, some of you would say,

ah, too far-fetched, mate.

You know, that's a Hollywood ending, you know.

But that's the beauty of it, you know.

And as you said, you know, Redders now will go down

in the folklore of Australian sport.

You've got him and it's great, mate.

I'm loving the fact that, again, we'll be at a World Cup.

And I know that the guys will have a great experience there.

There's nothing like I went to the 2014 one in Brazil

and it was an unbelievable experience.

And I'm sure Arnie and the boys will have another, you know,

unbelievable experience and we'll take all comers on.

They're in a good group where, you know,

they've got nothing to fear.

And as I said, I've never taken that part of it for granted,

knowing that what it would mean.

I mean, to other nations, for them to get to a World Cup,

the fact that, you know, for a long time we couldn't get to one

now that we've gone to our fifth in a row is a hell of an achievement.

Yeah, brilliant to get your thoughts on it, you know,

fresh from that remarkable moment in Australian sporting history.

Ang, we've been identifying what we think are dimensions

of great leadership of modern leaders in a range of different areas

and your leadership story stands out in Australian sporting folklore.

And we think self-leadership, without it,

there's not really a basis to lead from.

Does that resonate with you, the idea of self-leadership?

Yeah, I think so.

I mean, I, again, it's something I guess as you get older

and more experienced, you tend to reflect more on what is it

that has been a constant in terms of whether it's my success

or you're looking at other people's success.

Why, you know, why am I in this space right now?

Why have I kind of, I've been fortunate enough

to be successful?

Yeah.

To sort of have the career I've had and a lot of that is,

you know, it does come from within and understanding yourself

and understanding you as a person, you know.

And again, it's such a dichotomy from who you are sort of

in your personal life as to who you need to be

in your professional space.

And, you know, in kind of my personal life

and the person I am, I've got the same mates I had

when I was...

You know, as I said before, I met at South Melbourne

when I was six or seven, you know.

So, they've been with me the whole journey, which suggests

to me I haven't really changed much as a person.

You know, I'm kind of the same person I was back then.

We have the same interests, same values, same passions in life.

And that's been pretty constant.

As a leader, I've kind of understood that I've had a chameleon aspect

to the way I've led.

I've constantly changed, even if it's just, like I said,

like chameleon.

I've changed my appearance to fit in with wherever I've been

to make sure that I fit into that environment.

And you can't do that unless you understand yourself,

because at the core of that is I'm still the same person

within that different skin.

It's just that I've changed to adapt to make sure that my message

and what I say and the way I behave and the way I act

is going to resonate with the room that I'm in.

And, you know, when you go back home, the chameleon comes off

and you become the person back you are.

But, you know, it's...

Yeah.

If you don't have a true sense of who you are yourself,

you know, the danger is you become this chameleon

and you stay like that just because you have success

in a certain environment and then you don't adapt

or you take that home and all of a sudden it doesn't work,

you know, you're figuring.

So, you know, I think that ability to have a real core sense of self,

who you are, what your values are, that's your bedrock,

and then to be able to change your skin to adapt to wherever you're going,

and the different environments you're going to be in

and the journey you're on is really important.

And, you know, like I said, you can't do that unless there's some sort

of self-reflection upon, you know, who you are and what you want to do

and what you want to achieve.

I think there's a really unique part to your leadership,

and from what I understand, and you mentioned it,

this great sense of self and unwavering really,

but you also have expressed that you purposely keep your distance

from the players and that you've held that ground back

because you like to keep them guessing at times

and you didn't want to build these really close connections

and then have to tell them that they were, you know, sacked,

which is part of the role of being a coach.

Is that a bit of what you're talking about as well,

that that's what you need to do to be successful in your role

and that's the path that you want to tread?

Yeah, I mean, look, so that's the chameleon bit.

That's the bit where, you know, I really believe that an important part

of, you know, being in a group is that everyone has an equal sense

of self-worth, and a lot of that comes from, you know, the leaders.

You know, how do I treat people?

And I treat everyone the same.

It doesn't matter whether you've just arrived at the club,

whether you're a player, whether you're the boot-stutter,

whether you're the security man.

I think that's really important because I think that people need

to feel like they're just as important

as the person next to them.

Then they feel like they belong to something

and then they're willing contributors to it.

Now, you know, because of that, you know, some of it's, yeah,

a little bit of sort of fable and folklore because when I was

with the national team, most of those stories come from that time

where I do keep a distance because I couldn't.

At club level, when I'm working with players every day,

I still have a connector with them at some point every day, you know.

I don't not talk to people, but I don't spend more time

with sort of certain people.

I don't socialise with whether that's players or staff

because I think that's where, for me, I'm kind of going into territory

of saying, well, you know, am I, you know, is everyone

in this room getting my equal attention?

Do they feel like they're getting my equal attention?

I think everyone I work with, whether players or staff,

I'll tell you that, you know, even though they probably don't

get to know me really well, will know that I care for them

and I have total support for who they are within that organisation

irrespective of the role they play.

And it just suits me.

It suits my personality, my style of management.

It's not for everyone.

There's other managers I know who really get really sort of involved

with the people they work with and it works just as effectively.

It's just not, you know, like I said, suited to me.

For me, it's about my ultimate responsibility is to lead

and to make sure that everyone within the walls that I lead in

feel the same self-worth when it comes to me,

that I don't place more importance.

So, you know, I've said to them, you know, it's not something unique.

It's something that happens at a lot of clubs.

But I will, every morning, I will shake everyone's hands

and say hello to every person in the building.

It's just something I've always done because it gives me, you know,

two or three seconds of connection with someone that,

irrespective of that, just could be a quick conversation

but it might prompt something in my mind for me to say something to them

or they might feel like this is the moment they need to say something to me

to catch up later.

But everyone gets it.

You know, no one misses out.

And, you know, during COVID,

during COVID times, mate, the fist bump has, you know,

annoyed the crap out of me.

I hate a fist bump.

So I'm glad we're back to handshakes as of next year.

Which is a brilliant part of your folklore, Anjan.

I'm glad you brought that up because, you know,

it probably costs you in time maybe four or five minutes of your day, isn't it?

But make physical contact with everyone in the organisation

and understand that's what you do.

You walk through and whether it's the boot starter

or the security guard or the player, everyone.

And then, as you said, you might stop and an interaction occurs from there.

It's a simple thing, isn't it?

But to have the leader of the organisation

literally make contact with you physically every day,

it's a powerful thing that's become part of what you do.

We see leaders are really conscious about how they positively impact others

in their environment.

You did that.

The words of Scottie Paper in my,

you tread your own path.

It feels like you tread your own path very, very clearly.

How do you think about positively impacting everyone in the environment?

Again, you know, I think that's probably my main thing.

My major sort of role within that is that,

you know, I'm dealing with,

like I said, I look back at my playing career

and my own sort of self-doubts about who I could be

and how far I could go

absolutely put a limit to whatever I reached.

If I had somebody in that room who said,

listen, forget your coaching career

and make the most out of your playing career

and had that sort of positive reinforcement,

because as I said, you know,

my father was a major influence in my life,

but he was old school, mate.

I never got a good word out of him

and I wasn't going to get any positive feedback going home after every game.

Even if I played well,

he had a crack at me about something else that I didn't do well.

So there was no real, you know,

it just didn't help my sort of self-doubt insecurity about things anyway.

But again, that was that generation of dads, I guess.

But, you know, so when I kind of deal with people today,

you know, being able to kind of get them to really believe in themselves

and the possibilities of, like I said,

we spoke about Andrew Redmayne,

is that if you told Andrew Redmayne 12 months ago

that he's going to be the person who takes us to a World Cup,

like that is not something that's conceivable

that you can sort of plan out and say,

this is a real goal for you, right?

That can't happen.

But, you know,

I guarantee you that, and I know,

and John Crawley who works with the Goalies at Socceroos level,

he's been outstanding for years.

Somewhere he would have had those conversations with him,

you know, to paint that picture,

not just with him and with the other goalkeepers.

So as a leader,

you can have such a profound impact with positive reinforcement.

And it's not about painting unrealistic or sort of,

you know, just sort of throwing fantasies out there.

It's things that,

that are tangible because they happen every day.

You know,

these so-called sporting miracles are everywhere.

You know,

they sprout up and then it's only when you read the story,

you go,

oh geez,

how did he end up doing that?

And you read and you go,

well,

that's why,

because he's been preparing his whole life for this,

for that moment,

you know,

it didn't happen.

But so,

you know,

I think within the environment,

whether that's players or coaches,

I really try and,

I've never been a,

and again,

this goes against convention in some respects,

but I've never been a goal-orientated perp.

I never set goals out at the start of the year.

I don't say,

well,

we've got to do this and we've got to achieve this.

Because if I'd have done that for my own career,

I would have surpassed them.

I mean,

I ended up winning the championship in my second year as,

as a coach at South Melbourne.

That would have been my goal.

And that was 25 years ago.

So if that was kind of the end,

I would have surpassed that in my,

what happens after that,

you know?

So I kind of realised with my own life that,

you know,

not having a predetermined goal means that,

you know,

you can exceed even your most sort of positive of,

of expectations.

If I can impose that on the people I work with,

then that's when I think special things happen.

That's when you break through ceilings.

That's when you do things that have never been done before,

because you've never spoken about it.

You know,

it comes to you because you haven't put a ceiling on what you've done.

That can only come with sort of,

you know,

positive reinforcements.

When we do analysis after the game,

I will never highlight mistakes,

you know,

because if,

I just think there's no,

there's no purpose in highlighting a person's error.

No one goes out there with the intention of making a mistake.

Mistakes are,

you know,

and if I was going to go out and point out mistakes,

I'd have to start with my own,

because I'll make plenty during,

you know,

the course of a game or the course of a season.

So everything we show them in terms of feedback is,

is positive.

You know,

this is stuff we did well.

Maybe we didn't do it often enough,

why?

Well,

let's do it more often rather than saying,

this is stuff we didn't do well and we've got to cut out.

Yeah,

that's fascinating.

And again,

I love these conversations,

Ange,

because you know,

you share and you hope it impacts.

Spent a lot of my time with younger kids,

junior,

junior sport,

the age of my kids.

And unfortunately that message has been lost somewhere because,

you know,

you would have spent your time on the sidelines and just seen,

you know,

junior coaches do the exact opposite.

You know,

they scream at kids when they make a mistake and they,

and you can see the body language drain and the confidence get,

to have someone who,

you know,

who's just won the league title,

sort of say,

I don't even,

on the video review show a mistake.

So you literally,

you won't play a replay of,

yeah.

I don't.

No,

no,

no,

I don't.

I mean,

and,

and you're right.

I mean,

I,

my oldest boy,

when he was going through sort of junior soccer,

I hated it.

I hate standing on the sideline and listening to the coaches and the parents,

screaming,

kids making mistakes,

you know,

there's no purpose in it.

You know,

if,

if a player sort of,

you know,

miss hits a pass or miscontrols a ball,

what's the purpose of highlighting that?

That there's no,

there's no learning in that because that,

that person is not going out there intentionally doing that.

You know,

the stuff that I'll highlight,

if,

if we've got team structures or something in the team planning that they,

they don't follow,

then even then I'd say,

well,

why?

If they're not following it,

it means my message hasn't been strong enough as to why they need to follow that team message.

So again,

it comes back to,

to positive,

positive,

positive,

positive,

positive,

positive,

positive,

positive reinforcement.

People react to better,

to,

to showing them the possibilities of what they can do rather than limiting them by saying,

look,

you need to eliminate,

you know,

this aspect of,

of your game.

And,

and it's,

and it's born from the fact that that's how I want my teams to play.

At the end of the day,

I want my teams to be exciting.

I want supporters to come to the game and be excited by the way the team's playing.

That's never going to happen if people,

players feel constricted to,

and worried about mistakes because everything,

every,

thing about the game style I set up is about taking risks.

It's not being risk averse.

Now,

the first,

you know,

I would have zero chance of achieving what I want to achieve if at the first attempt to play our football,

I pull people up for mistakes because what's going to happen is they're going to become risk averse and that goes against totally everything I'm trying to prescribe.

So,

you know,

I,

I say at training sometimes,

I,

I'll have a crack at the coaches and say,

you know what,

training's been too good,

it means that they're not getting challenged.

You know,

like when we make mistakes at training,

it means that,

you know what,

they're getting challenged because we're working with good players.

So that means get the speed of things up,

you know,

put more pressure on them,

make them make mistakes.

And the players learn from that without it being highlighted as a,

as a negative,

you know?

So,

you know,

for me,

everything that I love about the game,

I love about sport is in,

in,

in achieving the,

the,

the unattainable.

And then along they come,

if people take risks and are not afraid of making mistakes and the repercussions of mistakes.

Yeah,

it's brilliant.

You can hear how clear you are on,

on your vision.

And that is the next dimension about leaders really conscious about how they create and

share their vision.

I think you gave us a really good insight into that.

The risk profile and,

and,

you know,

the 36 game streak without being beaten in,

in Brisbane war is a great story of that and maintaining possession.

And,

you know,

there were some horrific mistakes that happened that you didn't flinch and you,

and you,

you know,

then went on and the,

the,

the group got it and the,

the,

the vision was there.

Can you,

can you explain a bit that more?

You're going back to,

to Scotland.

You've just won the league and I suppose it all starts again.

I mean,

how do you go about creating the next vision and continuing?

Yeah.

And,

and,

and like I said,

but it kind of,

for me,

I think particularly with the group I've got now,

the,

the way of the,

the more of a grade,

whether it's the players or something,

that's what they'll be expecting from me.

They won't be expecting for me to come in and say,

look,

we're going to do what we did last year because that'll go against everything that,

that kind of I've been talking about,

because that would be risk averse.

That would be saying,

well,

you know,

we've got a successful formula.

Let's just roll it out again.

But I know that's not how sport works because,

you know,

whether,

you know,

every year there's,

there's,

if you're,

if you're part of the chasing pack,

you're trying to hunt somebody down.

You have to be better than the person that's ahead of you.

If you're ahead of the pack,

you've got to be better than you were last year,

because look,

one thing you know is whatever marker you've set down is the people who were chasing you,

the clubs who were chasing you,

they're going to go surpass that mark you've laid down because that's their objective.

So we've got to be further ahead.

That's only going to happen if,

from the first day of pre-season,

the guys come in and go,

okay,

well,

you know,

we've gone up a level again,

you know,

with terms of our environment,

intensity,

and tempo in,

in how we're going to approach things,

how we're going to play,

how we're going to work.

And,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

and,

People will say, okay, we know who he is now.

We're not going to underestimate him.

We know what he can deliver.

So, you know, all those kind of things that I could have used as tools this year

don't exist next year.

But, you know, there are other things.

You know, we're in Champions League this year,

which is going to be unbelievable.

You know, we're going to be playing against the best football clubs in the world.

What a challenge that is.

And if you're ever going to talk about being risk-averse,

that's the environment that they get truly tested in, you know.

So, but I love that bit.

That's the exciting bit for me.

And again, it comes back to the environment that, you know,

the players and the staff will come in knowing that, okay,

we're off on another journey.

We're off, you know, there's another story to tell

and we don't know where it's going to end.

But what we're not going to do is kind of limit our possibilities

of where we could end up by not buying totally into, you know,

everything we believe in.

And as you said,

there's, you know,

there's going to be bumps along the way.

Like I said right at the start, you know,

I've had a lot of success in my career,

but it's the bits where I was building that success

that are the most profound to me.

They're the bits I love.

The end bit's great and everyone's happy and, you know,

you get the trophy and everything.

But, you know, I'm kind of uncomfortable in that space for too long.

I'm looking for the next build, you know.

That's the bit I love.

And bizarrely, that's where people go, oh, jeez, that's the worst bit.

That's really under the most pressure because, you know,

the results aren't there and people,

sort of coming at you and going, no, that's the bit you love.

You know, that's when you put your shoulder in and you go, you know,

when we come out on the other side, that's the bit you'll reflect on.

That you kind of take pride in that, you know,

you didn't shift at that moment.

You kind of stood strong, you know.

And, you know, at the start of last year at Celtic, you know,

we lost three of our first six games, you know,

which in a league season in Scotland,

if you lose four games, you can't finish first.

So, we lost three of the first six.

So, you go, oh, we've got to be perfect to win this thing, you know.

But through that time, that element, I love the fact that, you know,

everyone kind of bought into it and said, no, let's keep going, you know.

We're not going to change.

Yeah, you are counterintuitive, Angie, in lots of your thinking.

And, you know, as I said, it's unique to hear you describe it.

Curiosity is a common word that we associate with leaders

who operate the way that you do.

And through that, they approach their learning and development.

Does that word resonate with you, being curious?

Yeah, I think so.

I mean, I certainly sense that in myself, that I'm constantly, you know,

interested in finding out about things, irrespective.

And you have different sort of interests as you get older and, you know,

you experience more things in life that, you know,

there are other things that you're kind of maybe in the past

having a great interest in, but all of a sudden, you know,

it might be a person.

It comes into your life or something that comes across your path.

You think, oh, I want to find out more about that.

And it's always been part of me.

I mean, I'm, you know, always, you know, I used to get, I think,

20 cents lunch money at school and I used to spend eight cents of that

on the Herald Sun in the morning as an eight year old because I wanted

to read the paper, you know, I don't know why I was reading the paper.

I mean, I usually read the back pages, right?

But I remember that.

One of the teachers going, what the hell is a seven or eight year old kid

doing when you're holding a paper, you know, buying a paper in the morning?

I said, oh, you know.

So that's always been part of me, I think, that I've always sort of,

whether that's just for my own sort of self, it helps me feel comfortable

that I know what's going on.

Again, I often say that the most important thing I do on a daily basis

is make decisions.

In my professional life, for the most part, when people come and have a chat

to me, they're asking for some direction and that usually means

making a decision.

If I get more of those decisions right than wrong, because I'll never get

all of them right, we've got a better chance of success.

I'll have a better chance of making more of those decisions right

if I have the right information.

So I'm really big on, you know, even in areas where maybe I'm not as well informed

as, you know.

Because in sport nowadays, you know, you've got, you know,

sports science, there's analysis, there's, you know,

all these different aspects of the role that are really important

that aren't my expertise.

I have people who've educated themselves and know,

but I still need to know that information, you know,

and I try to understand that information so that when I have to make a decision,

it's a better informed one.

So I think unless you have that, you know, as a leader,

that sense of always wanting to at least explore new things

and taking new things, it's very hard to grow.

You know, if you're just sort of set in your ways and think,

well, I don't really want to know anything else apart from what I know right now,

there's going to be an end date to your ability to relate to people

and communicate with people.

I mean, it's like I said, I didn't grow up with social media.

Now, I don't engage in any sort of form of social media,

but that doesn't mean I don't understand it.

I don't cross it, and I don't have people who give me the information I need on it

because the people I'm working with, and particularly the players,

they know all about it, and I'm going to have to deal with that at some point.

I don't want to deal with it by saying, well, it's got nothing to do with me.

I've got no idea why you're on it.

I can't tell a person not to use their mobile phone, a young person today,

because it's just part of their life.

I mean, you know, as you get older, you know,

and each generation is the same, you know,

and people say today, oh, you know, when I was younger,

we were outside all the time, you know, and we were always playing.

We were never inside on the bloody PlayStations,

and I'm the same with my kids, you know,

and we kind of wear it as a badge of honour that we were always outside,

but to be fair, we never had the option, did we, mate?

So, you know, maybe if PlayStation was around in those days,

I might be one of these kids who are inside, you know,

so you need to understand that and be able to relate to that,

and that's where I think, you know, curiosity helps you in that.

It helps in the most important task,

you have as a leader, and that is your decision-making,

because you have to, people come to you for the ultimate say,

the decision in whatever they're going to do,

and the more informed you are, the better you'll be in giving,

making the decision that's going to be right for the organisation,

for the people you're working with,

and then for yourself as a leader moving forward.

It's a brilliant answer.

It resonates really clearly.

Communicating with clarity is a dimension.

It's a dimension as well that we see leaders really focused on,

and from what I understand, that is a real gift of yours.

As a coach, you get little windows sometimes to make a difference

with your communication at certain stages.

Is that something you can share with us,

how you've gone about your communication?

Yeah, it's an important part of what I do.

Again, as I said earlier, I'm not a massive communicator in that,

you know, I'm not constantly talking to players every day,

and, you know, I really kind of give a lot of responsibility

to the other coaches, the other staff,

and even the players themselves to sort of dictate the day-to-day stuff,

so they're not constantly hearing my voice.

So when I do talk, I try and make an impact in those moments,

and, you know, I put a lot of thought into what I'm going to say

and why I'm saying it.

For me, the key is, as you said, is the clarity of message.

You can't, again, I've met so many brilliant people

who have the most unbelievable knowledge,

and yet when I hear them talk, particularly in front of a group of people,

it gets...

It's lost when those words leave their mouth.

You know, they lose the room, not because of their lack of knowledge,

just their ability to really make that clear and concise

and relatable to the people they're talking to,

the audience they're talking to.

And, you know, I've worked really hard to try and make sure that,

you know, the biggest impact I can have in a communicative sense

is that when I talk, there's a purpose behind it,

and it's really clear.

You know, it's not just me talking just for the sake of it.

And I had...

I've got plenty of examples.

I mean, there was a couple of coaches I had when I was playing.

I remember one, he used to talk for 45 minutes, 50 minutes before training, you know.

And then we'd go out there, and all of us would be brain-dead by then, you know,

because, you know, we were part-timers back then, like most sport in Australia.

You know, our guys were plumbers and bricklayers,

and the last thing they wanted to do was come to training

and listen to the coach talk for 45 minutes,

even though he was a real knowledgeable guy and what he was saying was great.

But, okay, mate, it's just not working.

And, you know, I kind of understood.

I understood early on that for me to have the biggest impact is that when I spoke,

like I said, there was a purpose, a clarity.

I got really challenged in Japan with that because, obviously, you know,

that's, like I said, it's a major...

I think it's a major asset I have, the ability to, in a room of people,

to be able to sort of have a real clarity of purpose and message.

And when language is taken away from you, because I've got an interpreter,

I've got three interpreters in the room, that became, you know,

a real sort of...

a real kind of tricky for me to figure out, well,

I'm really relying on another person now to get this message the way I want to across,

you know, and how do I know?

Because I don't understand what he's saying.

So I'm saying it in English, he's saying it in Japanese.

The Portuguese guy is waiting for him to finish in Japanese,

so he can then say it in Portuguese, the Brazilian players, the Thai translator.

So there's four or five people talking in a room while I'm talking.

And I'm hoping that this isn't Chinese whispers and my message isn't getting diluted or changing along the way.

So how do you know, you know?

So that was really tough.

And I ended up, I think I said to the boys in the coaching group,

that I ended up illustrating a bit on, and I'm a terrible drawer,

I'm talking stick figures, but I'd ended up going on a whiteboard.

And while I'm telling the story, starting to draw these stick figures

and just making sure that what I'm saying, they kind of got as clearly as possible.

And...

I still do it now, actually, but the boys get a laugh out of it,

even in Scotland, because, like I said, they're terrible drawings.

But your ability to make an impact and be clear in what you're going to say is,

I've always felt is probably one of the most sort of vital roles within the group.

You mentioned earlier, Ang, that you've done what you've done without formal mentors,

and you've often just been comfortable in your own skin enough that the answers were,

within, but collaboration is obviously, you know, essential in team sport at some level.

We see it as being more relevant than ever.

How have you gone about collaboration?

Yeah, as you said, I'm probably a little bit old school in that, in that, you know,

I've kind of haven't had mentors or people I've felt, and as I said earlier,

I think maybe if I was starting out again in today's world,

I maybe wouldn't take, do it the way I've done it.

But within that, though, now, even now, I still know that what's really important for me

is the people I work with, not just the players, but the staff.

They're a vital sort of conduit to me creating the right environment.

So in very, in every aspect of it, they're my collaborators.

They're, you know, the people I work with every day.

And I try to empower them as much as I possibly can, give them as much responsibility,

almost like they feel like they're in charge.

And in many respects, they are, even though I've got sort of my fingerprints all over it.

You know, as the old adage of, you know, I tell people what to do, but I don't tell them how to do it.

You know, that's their, that's what they bring to the table.

You know, whatever your role is, this is your role, this is what I want you to do.

But, mate, do it your way, you know, bring your own personality.

And in a sense, those people, rather than, I think in the end, feeling like they're working for you,

they're working with you, you know.

And I think that's really important.

And, you know, I, in kind of, in my game, it's pretty common practice that when you move around as a kind of coach or a manager,

you take a group of people with you because there's a sense of security in that and people understanding.

And I've tried to shy away from that.

I've kind of moved myself.

So even when I went to Celtic, I kind of went there on my own, which was very unusual.

Everyone sort of found it bizarre that I'd move sort of halfway across the world

and I'd take anyone with me, no staff member, no one who already knew me, who I, you know, sort of a trusted ally.

I was literally walking in and I was the only new person in there.

Everyone else was there from last year and, you know, how do you get those people?

But I love that because that means there's another group of people I've got to sort of get to believe in me and this new vision.

So that means I'm going to be at my best on super high alert.

Whereas if I'd taken half a dozen people with me, maybe that would dull those senses a little bit because I know, well, he's got that in,

he already knows what he's doing, he already knows what he's doing.

So, you know, I'm kind of not at my best.

So when I do that, it means that I need to then make sure that everyone who's working with me feels part of,

you know, an important part of, you know, the machine we're kind of building.

And so, you know, for me, that's where the collaboration comes in is that even though I'm kind of,

like I said, in many respects people would look at me and say, well, he's very old school in the way I work in terms of,

well, I'm kind of the dominant leader in the group.

I think when you walk into the Watch Us work, you wouldn't get that sense.

I think you'd see that everyone is working hard at it.

Everyone has responsibility.

Everyone's a leader in their own right.

But asking these two questions, Anz, to every leader, I've had the great privilege sitting down with,

who's been the greatest leader in your life?

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, you know, anyone who knows my story will know, you know,

it's my father and whilst he was the bane of my existence for a long time,

because just his never ending penchant for making me feel like I'm not good enough was annoying.

You know, it's only as I've got older, I've understood why,

where that's kind of taken me to the place I am in terms of the kind of person I am.

And ultimately,

it comes back to that original thing that I just think my father and my mother,

but particularly my dad, pretty much sacrificed his own happiness

and his own sort of fulfilments in life to give me the opportunity in the life I've had.

I just think there's no greater sacrifice.

And he did that how? Just through hard work, mate.

There was no shortcuts.

He just worked his backside off, you know, some really strong values, you know, strong family values.

Strong friendships, some real basic stuff that we can be pretty dismissive about.

But, you know, seeing it, you know, seeing that person who's in your life do that

and then understanding later just what they did do,

I need no greater role model than my father.

The ultimate leadership, isn't it?

When you reflect and think someone giving up their happiness to create a better life for you

and, you know, I'm sure the pride in what you've gone on to do would be immense.

In the spirit of collaboration, Ange, is there anyone that you've looked at in any area of your life?

I mean, clearly your professional life is such a big part of who you are.

But have you looked across?

And maybe that isn't part of you.

Maybe, as you said, you do tread your own path.

I use that word again.

But has there been someone who thought, God, if I can collaborate with them in a part of your life, that stands out?

No, not specifically.

But I've always kind of...

You know, loved and been inspired by watching people just do things, you know, that little bit differently

and, you know, go against the grain a little bit.

And whether that's in sort of sport or in any kind of walk of life, you know, I take sort of...

You know, I guess the curiosity kicks in, but I take great inspiration from that.

And...

And...

But I've never been the one to kind of say, I wish I could sort of meet him and speak to him because I've had some experience in my life where I've met kind of people that I've thought of as heroes and I've left pretty underwhelmed and pretty disappointed.

And I've tried to limit that in my life, like that I want to keep them on that sort of pedestal.

I mean, I hope people don't feel like that about me.

Maybe they do sometimes, but it's one of those things.

Where, you know, you kind of...

You just want to look at it for what it is and appreciate it because ultimately we're all human beings, mate.

We've all got flaws, you know.

No one's perfect, you know.

Even the greatest of people, you know.

We all make mistakes.

We all kind of make decisions that sometimes we know are the wrong decisions, but we still make them, you know.

That's just...

You know, I...

I really sort of lament sometimes when...

Particularly today.

In today's world where even some of our greatest achievers, you know, people will still go on,

oh, but they had flaws, you know, because they made some bad decisions in their life.

And I think, well, they're not flaws.

They're just being a human being, mate, you know.

That's just being a person, you know.

That's just living a life, you know.

Living a life means you're going to make mistakes, you know.

And I'm really conscious of that, particularly with young people today, that, you know, we...

Every mistake they make has such...

Horrendous, sometimes, consequences in terms of what it can mean for their life.

And I just...

You know, I...

You know, I really struggle with it.

It's a part of life I really struggle with these days.

That we're not allowing people just to be human beings, just to make mistakes like we did when we were younger.

I'm sure you...

You did as much as I did, mate, did things that we go, Jesus, what was I thinking?

But, you know, we survived that.

And if anything, we learned from that.

We can't be a people because of that.

And we're getting...

That's a good point.

And the reason I swing about that is that that's why, you know, when I talk about, you know, people say I'd like to collaborate.

I just...

I love to hear their story and listen to their story.

I don't need to feel like I need to get to know them or get close to them.

In case maybe there is a character trait that I don't like in them, but not that I would judge them on it, but then I'd walk away thinking,

you know, I wish I didn't know that about them or I wish they, you know, they just left it where it was.

So, yeah.

That's kind of the space I sit in.

And that's why I've never really spoken about, you know, well, he's my mentor.

I'd love to really collaborate with him.

Not because of any other reason that, you know, there are plenty of people who are kind of my heroes.

And I'll make sure they stay that way by not meeting them.

It's a brilliant answer, Ange.

And listening to you, I'm not surprised.

It's uniquely you.

And I don't think you can be any other way.

And your point about we made, you know, extraordinary mistakes, but they weren't.

Highlighted.

We got to get away with them before everyone had a camera in their hand every single moment.

And you look back and you think, you know, you would have been cancelled.

You wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation probably because of it.

I'm with you.

You get alarmed around how highlighted they are, you know, particularly in the sporting sphere.

I feel the scrutiny is so intense now.

Young people have to pay in blood really for the mistakes that we all made and got away with without the public notice.

So, not sure again how to put that genie back in the bottle.

But.

But I agree with you.

It's being human and we all are.

And yours is, it's a uniquely human story, Ange, that we love your humility, love the fact that you're prepared to tell it so openly.

And I'm sure lots of people will learn from it.

It's a unique path of success.

And we really appreciate your time.

Thanks for joining us.

Good man, Luke.

Thanks, mate.

Great talk.

Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy, produced by Matt Dwyer, with audio production by Darcy Thompson.

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