They say when you do what you love, you never work a day in your life.
But when that turns into a successful career, how do you stay true to yourself?
G'day, it's Luke D'Arcy.
The idea of self-improvement and leadership both on and off the field
has been a lifelong passion of mine.
With one of my oldest friends, we created a leader collective
and have had the privilege of working with thousands of leaders
in education, sport, industry and the arts
that have helped shift to what we see as the 21st century style of leadership
where everyone has a voice.
In this podcast, we hear stories from these iconic leaders.
I was lucky enough to be joined by Andy Lee
to chat about how he stays calm and collected while living a busy life,
encouraging others around him and his incredible sense of positivity and fun.
Well, our next guest is one of the most successful people I've ever met
in everything that he does in every area of his life
from Hamish and Andy, the radio show,
to writing children's books that are bestsellers,
to Gap Year, which is one of the great experiences in television
that we've ever seen.
You don't get someone that's got better energy
and better to be around than Andy Lee.
Good to catch up with Andy.
Great to see you, mate.
You know, we bump into each other from time to time
and we've had great pleasure to meet you
in a range of different settings,
but you always seem to be happy.
Has that always been you?
Oh, look, I mean, obviously a lot of that comes back to family, I reckon,
and I've been really fortunate with my mum and dad.
They've just been fantastic from the get-go,
both primary school teachers.
There was a point when our whole family was at the same school,
going in the same van, five of us to the same school,
and mum and dad...
Here come the Lees.
Yeah, here come the Lees.
Red Nose Day was funny.
We all had our red noses on
and the red nose at the front of the camper van.
Not to say that primary school teachers don't have a stressful life.
In fact, it's gotten more stressful talking to my dad about it,
The hours are great.
They came home with their kids.
The family atmosphere was really great.
School holidays was...
You know, so you get a lot of that work-life balance
going from a primary school teacher's perspective for my parents,
and while they didn't earn a lot of money
and primary school teachers don't get paid well,
I think that was the first insight into a work-life balance,
probably before I even knew what work-life balance was.
So, yeah, we just...
And my dad's a goose.
He made things fun.
Like, even as a primary school teacher,
he got in trouble a couple of times,
but, you know, I remember I was in a composite class
There was two teachers and 60 students,
and they kind of shared this big classroom,
and they used to make us all spies,
and when another class went out for PE,
we'd go and steal all their furniture
and leave a ransom note on the chalkboard,
and he was just inventing games the whole time,
and he's not particularly funny at all,
and so I think that that kind of happiness
kind of flowed through from them.
I would say that's how it started.
I bet you're older by the cam,
and you guys have been in a band together,
and you've got a younger sister, Alex, I think.
Are they similar to you,
if you've got that similar legion?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, my sister's a warrior,
as in not like a Spartan warrior.
So mum's been more stressed.
Dad's pretty laid back.
Yeah, and Cam's a bit of both,
but my sister's probably inherited more from mum,
but we talk about like as a family group,
my mum had a health scare in 1996.
She was given two weeks to live.
She forgot how to walk, how to talk,
who we all were in hospital for months on end,
and I think when people, you know,
Rebecca, my partner's asked me before,
she's like, you know, you don't worry about too much.
I was like, yeah,
since I reckon that's probably a pivotal moment.
And we talk about silver linings in bad situations.
I never say to mum, thanks so much for going through that
because I'm a better person.
But I think I remembered at that time,
and wrongly, when people came up to me and said,
oh, you know, I'm worried this girl doesn't like me
or this homework might be overdue and stuff,
I just didn't care because this was happening
and it kind of straightened me up for all the little things
not to be so concerned about.
And only years later, five to 10 years later,
did I realise I was probably being dismissive
of people's problems, which doesn't help them at all.
And telling someone not to worry about something
doesn't help them.
If someone comes to you and is concerned about something,
going, hey, don't worry about it, it'll be fine,
makes them feel even more isolated.
So that was my next bit of growth to go, okay,
just because I feel like I've got to handle this,
handle these situations, that's not very helpful
to others not listening, hearing them out.
So, you know, we talk about that as a family,
certainly mum being sick and being away from us
for a long time was a chance to probably get a lot
of things in perspective.
And it's interesting, what age were you, Andy?
And I heard you say the words, you know,
I'm a better person as a result of it,
not the thing you want to say, thanks mum for going through it.
But your mum's healthy and lived a long life since.
But what age was it and how close was it a near run thing?
And why are you a better person because of it?
My brother was 18.
So mum, I'd go into the hospital every day and introduce myself.
Same conversation, be like round, I'm Andy.
I play the trumpet, I play hockey and all the cool things.
She'd be going, gee, you must have a lot of girls.
No wonder you're resilient.
You're resilient.
Andy now, look back, you did the hard yards early.
And she had no idea who you were.
And so that was a few months.
It felt like a long, long time.
But there's a few months of that.
And, you know, I think she's in hospital for six months.
At that time, dad's got that to worry about.
So we became really self-sufficient.
You know, we were mummy's boys.
Our lunches were getting packed, probably getting a little afternoon tea
when we get home and dinner would be after that.
You know, it was that.
It was that kind of thing.
And suddenly you have to do all that yourself, which is good.
It's a good lesson to learn.
And, you know, I was probably, and I've been regretful for this
and I've said it in the past, I was probably not that helpful to my sister.
She was a young girl about to become a woman going through that change
in PB and stuff and not having the only female figure in the household around.
I reckon that would have been really difficult.
My brother was, they probably became a bit closer.
Even though there's a five-year difference there.
So, but I was, you know, wanted to step up and help run the house
and they probably didn't need some 15-year-old saying do the laundry
and do this and you're in charge of that and so on.
So, you know, again, that was just a bit of responsibility at a younger age
was important to fast-tracking, I suppose, those skills and also
just, you know, I think that's a big part of it.
I mean, we never had a curfew growing up and he just said,
when you want to come home, come home.
You've got to ring by 10 o'clock the next morning if you're staying
in another place because he couldn't micromanage all these things.
But I was the first person home.
You know, like when you don't have a curfew, you don't stay out to it.
It was kind of an interesting thing.
We'd look back and my mates are staying out for longer and I'm like,
And they're like, oh, yeah, but we've got the one night out.
I'm like, well, I can let it go at any night.
But it ended up being home more than I thought I would be.
And so I suppose, yeah, getting that responsibility,
it was probably by force because Dad didn't have much of a choice.
He had a lot of other stuff going on.
It was an opportunity to grow a little bit, yeah.
Yeah, it's an interesting parenting experiment, isn't it,
when you look back, Andy, and go, you know, give the freedom, isn't it?
I'm also thinking I've got a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old.
I don't think they appreciate each other too much, Andy,
right at the moment for the exact reasons you say.
There's a lot of growth.
You haven't got the perspective.
I think you're probably most teenagers are inherently selfish
for obvious reasons.
You've got enough going on to go through it,
but you're sort of hoping that, you know,
and it will come back as same with my siblings as well.
But I suppose it's hard to look back.
You're going through so much on your own.
It's very rare for a 15-year-old boy to understand the perspective
of a 13-year-old girl at that age, I suppose.
But also, like, you know, my brother is a, you met Cam.
Yeah, he's just so nice.
Like, he's such a kind person and he's far kinder than I am.
And it was, you know,
that's really great of him to have supported my sister through that.
And, you know, I like logistics.
I like running things.
I like being in charge.
Still to this day, mate.
Is that part of the DNA?
So that's what I gravitate towards, which can sometimes be unhelpful.
But, again, those learnings, discussions after the fact,
they're all good things to learn.
And pretty early on.
Now, they're from humble beginnings.
The son of two primary school teachers.
And as you said, beautiful upbringing, but potentially not, you know,
school teachers are underpaid in Australia.
I think we could all agree on that.
But then fast forward to you now, Andy.
I think you're 39 years of age and you've just had extraordinary success.
And I want to ask you about that.
The Hamish and Andy show, still the most successful show in radio history.
Your TV shows are worldwide phenomenons.
You launched a kid's book.
And it goes global, Andy.
It's like people listening will say, it's okay to be happy.
I'd be happy if I was Andy Lee.
But tell us about dealing with that enormous amount of success.
What's that done to you?
I mean, I'll preface this by saying success is an interesting word, I reckon,
because people seem to measure success on the traditional measurements of power,
like how high someone might be up in a company and money,
how much money they've made, oh, they must be successful.
But I've got a pal of mine who's a bookkeeper, not even an accountant,
a bookkeeper, who goes to work at nine, leaves at five,
doesn't think about work whatsoever, goes home to his family,
has 100 beers on the weekend, has the best time and loves it.
And I'm going, well, that's pretty successful as well,
to know that that's the work-life balance that he wants.
And people accuse,
when someone doesn't have ambition, people often think that's a slight.
You know, like, well, that guy's not very ambitious.
And you're like, well, in the way that you think, I mean, I'm not wired that way.
I like to make things big as they can be and dive into them and so on.
But, you know, stepping back, you go, well, a lack of ambition doesn't have to be a slight.
If you know exactly your lot in life and you want to be there to support your family,
have the work-life balance, and, you know,
I probably could accuse my dad of having the same thing.
You're like, don't you want to be principal?
I don't want to be principal.
And we've had that discussion because I love the classroom.
I love hanging out with the kids.
I want to get home on time.
And I go, well, that's a good version of success as well.
But going back to the other measurements.
Let's get the scoreboard out now, Andy.
I remind dad all the time.
Look what you've created.
No, it's, again, I think we were, Haym and I were lucky in a lot of respects.
I'm super proud of the show and we worked super hard.
And as we reflected, we just brought out a podcast recently called
The Remembering Project where we reflected on those early days in radio,
that first, all the last 20 years.
And we, because we found out that our producers had left a run sheet
of every single show we've ever done.
So it was 2,700 run sheets.
And we would pick a date, go back to it, look at it and go, okay,
what were we doing?
So it was October 12th.
What were we doing in 2006, 2007, 2008?
And the run sheets are full.
We were really living and breathing the show.
We loved it so much.
It didn't feel like work back then.
And I reckon if, you know, when people have asked, well,
what's the key to your success?
It's like, we just were in love with the work.
Haym and I just were having such a ball.
We were all so fortunate that we started at a time where we had no dependents,
You could just live it.
And so we immersed ourselves.
We immersed ourselves in it.
And also, we didn't realise it was that successful.
We knew a lot of people were listening, lots and lots of people listening,
but it felt normal because it was the first kind of run at it.
So only since then have I realised, oh, wow,
that was a lot of people listening.
More than any in radio history as it turns out.
But I was sitting there going, we should get more.
We could get more.
What are we doing?
And we're looking at the shows and, you know,
we're like we want it to be the best show possible.
And the same with our show.
We're looking at TV shows and I suppose the part that Haim and I,
and I think I'm most proud of with all my work with Haim,
is just that we've always said if we don't love it, let's not do it.
It doesn't matter about money.
It doesn't matter about anything.
If we don't find this hilarious and we don't love it, let's not do it.
And it only takes one person to pull that cord and the other person respects it.
So there's never been arguments in that regard.
I might have what I think is the best and funniest idea.
If Haim goes, oh, I don't really like it.
I'll try and convince him softly.
And we have our onus on each other to try and love it.
But at the end of the day, you go, oh, mate, I'm just not seeing it.
You leave it straight away because you'll have other ideas.
And that creates a far less stressful environment.
You're not battling anyone, particularly the guy you have to perform with.
We're just not combative in that way.
And as soon as we agreed to, you know, I'm not sure if it was said out loud,
but as soon as we agreed to have kind of that approach to go,
yeah, I'll jump on board, whatever, but if I'm not seeing it, I'll tell you.
And we both agree at that point to leave it.
Life became a lot easier.
You're not worried about how you're pitching things in.
You're not worried about where the next idea is going to come from.
Haim and I have always felt that, and I particularly felt,
if you hang on to an idea so strongly,
it probably means you're not going to have another one.
If you can just free yourself a little bit from that
and be willing to share and put it through the pressure test,
then, yeah, you'll probably open your creative mind a bit more.
So we've done that with the TV shows and the radio shows
and all the other little bits and pieces we've done.
It's like, are we going to really enjoy this?
And if the answer is yes, let's do it.
And if we're not, let's not do it.
You also go pretty hard, the two of you.
And I want to talk about the friendship and the work friendship
and many other things.
But, you know, you push the envelope
and you don't leave much on the table between the two of you.
And there must have been some,
some moments where, have you ever had to tap the mat and say,
or, you know, in an ad break,
hey, you can't ring and talk about my dad like that
or you've got to pull up on my, something close to me.
Did you have any of those moments?
Well, again, we both love creating the playground to play in,
just to go, what are the rules of this game?
We love games and we love going, what are the rules of the game?
And I think that kind of analogy can kind of,
go across all of our stuff.
And there were times we'd tell each other stuff
and suddenly then I'm hearing it on air or I'm saying something
and you can see in his face, he's like, oh my God,
I'm going to be in so much trouble with my wife or girlfriend or mum
or what the hell are you doing?
And we made a decision kind of year, end of year one
or start of year two, around that time where we said, okay,
we've had a couple of testing moments in that regard.
Let's put it on the onus.
Let's put it on the person who's sharing the information originally
to say, hey, this is not for on air.
And if you don't, everything is free.
And so there was, you know, it swings around and, you know,
a week later, Hames bringing up something that's pretty awkward for me
and that I should have told him that, and he can see it on my face,
mid-break that this is not going to fly well with the family
or my girlfriend or something.
But he hasn't ruled it out.
But I hadn't ruled it out.
And so we get to the end of the break and instead of me,
going, why the hell did you do that?
You know, why did you, you know, I'm going, hey, mate, I'm so sorry.
I should have told you.
And then we both laugh.
So the onus on the person to create that.
And if that person forgets it, then you might have an issue.
But you don't normally because it's so rare that we would have something
that you go, please don't mention this.
So that was a nice swing of rule.
Instead of being angry at someone, you get kind of suddenly angry at yourself.
And again, it creates for a better environment.
It's an easy thing to have happen.
And I'll share a story with you.
And probably the worst moment I've ever had broadcast on air.
And it still makes me feel nauseous when I think about it,
because it's that line where you think you've had a conversation with someone
and it was on air and it wasn't or it was a private conversation.
And in this instance, I thought I'd read in the paper about this incredible story
of a mate of mine who happens to be an AFL senior coach
and that he'd had a reversal of his vasectomy.
And he said, I don't know.
And that they had been able to conceive a fourth child.
So we're doing the boundary line interview.
Let's cross down to the boundary line.
You know, the traditional footy, who's in, who's playing, who's not.
And I thought the interview was going a little bit dry.
And I just said, hey, that's great news, too, with the vasectomy and the reversal.
Tell us about that.
That's extraordinary.
It must have been pretty.
And as the words are coming out of my mouth, I can just feel the blood draining.
I hadn't told his family, hadn't told anyone.
And it was a waste of friendship.
Andy, I hadn't done it, Mr. G.
I wasn't trying to be anything apart from mildly entertaining.
And it still makes me feel just horrific when I think about it.
Haim is so scared of spiders, right?
And on the way to the toilet in their song, live during the radio show,
I saw a huntsman.
And I was like, I went to pick it up because I'm not scared of spiders
and found out it was dead.
But it looked actually, you know, normally they shrivel up.
I was like, great.
So I've kind of put it in my pocket and the fuck could go wrong.
And I've waited for it.
And this is before delay.
We didn't have any dump buttons or anything back then.
And so I waited to, I kind of brought the show back in
and I've said to Haim just before we go to air, I was like,
hey, mate, we're just going to go to a different,
we're going to go to a little bit different on the run sheet.
And he went, what?
And I started the show and then I went to point at his run sheet
and I threw the spider in front of him.
And he's lost it.
Like he can't believe it.
And then I'm like, don't worry.
And he came back to the microphone.
He goes, I don't care.
What if I draped something dead on you that you hate?
Like your ex-girlfriend.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
And suddenly at that point, it became a PA system to me
and my ex-girlfriend if she was listening.
Because I didn't hate her.
I don't know why he said that.
I'm like, Ella, if you're listening, I do not hate you.
So I just start speaking only to her.
And then he's back on the mic going, sorry, I've said that.
So it does come up when you're on the knife.
But I think one of the brilliant things that you guys have done
and Hamish is to me the same as you.
It's great energy and it's great to be in your company.
It's such a privilege.
But nothing that you guys did was nasty at other people's expense.
It was comedy and it was fun.
You felt like everyone was in on the joke.
Was that a pre-planned thing or is that just a reflection
of who you two guys are?
Yeah, not necessarily pre-planned.
I mentioned this on the Will-osophy podcast,
but Will was really nasty to me coming through.
Will Anderson was?
So as far as like, I didn't hate anyone in the industry really
Is that a true story?
I told him that on the podcast and he said, I know.
And he acknowledged that he was really, he was pretty nasty to Hamish
and I said he was probably worse to me, but I loved comedy
and I loved Will, I loved The Glasshouse, but we kind of became punchlines
for Will on The Glasshouse and on his radio show.
I'd be listening and hearing.
We were like the joke, a joke for him.
In the early days of you guys doing radio.
Yeah, and just before, off the back of the Channel 7 show.
And, you know, I reckon being on the other side of that probably put something
deep in my head to go, okay, let's not do that to anyone.
And I do think it's our nature as well.
It's not like particular.
We really find it fun if people aren't having fun as well.
You know, it's a bit cliche to say, oh, you want it to be inclusive,
but we really did.
We wanted anyone to come to the show and feel comfortable.
We'll make you feel uncomfortable at times.
That's the ribbing and so on.
But rather than walk away feeling hurt and even with prank calls and stuff
done in the past, we've always checked for permission before we air them
and people say no and you just leave it.
Like, it's not, it has, the idea that someone can have a negative experience
for a show that's just designed to be fun and frivolous,
it doesn't really add up.
How was that sitting down with Will, who I know very well and worked with
on Noam Radio for a couple of years?
Was that hard for him to hear you say that back to him?
Yeah, I reckon it would have been.
It was kind of tough to say.
I've still, you know, Will, I still respect Will and there's no hard feelings.
There's no hard feelings at all anymore and it was a good actually conversation
to have and he put it in the, I can't remember, I don't want to invent things
that were said either way but, you know, he said, yeah, we walk past each other
and nod for the last three or four years probably and be nice in the hallway
but this kind of discussion probably had to happen at some point.
But I also got it from his perspective.
Hayman and I had come from nowhere, seemingly from nowhere,
and back in, back 10, 15 years ago, stand-ups were trying really hard
to get their own and they do stand-up to get their radio show
or to get their TV show.
It seemed like the natural evolution and I think more nowadays
they're really viewed as separate disciplines but in the stand-up world,
people are going, who the hell are these guys and why have they got the slot
and why, you know, and there was resentment there for that,
which I can understand with people slogging it out.
And so in Will's world, he's hearing all these people probably bitch about us
but he's got a nice...
He's got a nice microphone to stand up for them,
to be a voice for those people and I think that's how he took it.
And pretty good at delivering a punchline too, Will.
So he would have been pretty handy at doing it.
I've seen it firsthand many times before and what I love about the person you are
and Will to be able to sit down and have that conversation is great.
I grew up in the locker room mentality, Andy, and that is just unmerciful sledging
and it is just, you know, brutal because you're given brutal feedback all the time
and you sort of get...
You get used to that as being...
But behind that, the best part of that is that whenever there is any problems,
you've never met a more caring and more loving group of people
and sometimes you forget I'm naturally that way
because that was my whole experience from a 17-year-old
and sometimes people hear you speak and you go,
that's actually supposed to be delivered with a bit of care
but it's coming across as a bit brutal.
But I think, you know, as you said, as you evolve,
you probably realise a bit like you, perhaps there isn't that robust...
You know, conversation going on with many people
and I've had to check that a bit at times as well.
About now, I should apologise for the text messages I send you occasionally.
I've got an accountant called Andy Lee.
About four times a year, I go,
hey, any danger of those returns coming back on time?
Yeah, probably the wrong person, Andy.
So I have tried to change that and sort it out.
Well, I used to want to be an accountant.
So I studied accounting at school.
I did university accounting when I was still at school.
I was quite good at it.
But I went into...
I went into work for the good, good guys, the good, good, good guys.
But in between school and university, over the summer break,
I don't know why I wasn't just out having beers with everybody,
but I went and worked there and I cancelled $80 million worth of cheques
instead of presenting them.
And back then, you couldn't...
So they found out that I'd done it on a Wednesday.
It was three days of just data entry and I was pretty quick at it.
And they found out I'd done it.
It was on a Wednesday.
And so for their whole system, they only backed up on a Sunday.
It wasn't like live backing up back then.
So that's a pretty big transaction.
So every single employee there at head office had to redo their work for Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday because they had to reset the computers for the...
How was that walking back into that workplace?
And everyone was arriving at five to try and catch up with their work.
And I said, oh, look, I'll come in at five.
And they're like, no, no, you can come in at nine.
I was like, okay.
So I've gone out at a few beers and I'm walked up, hung over on the...
And I'm sitting there back putting the data entry in.
And at the end of Thursday, I said to the...
I'm not coming back.
And he understood.
I think he was fine with it.
And I went and changed all my subjects.
Sliding door moment, Andy, in life.
And as we said, we're sitting here alongside now someone who's one of the most recognizable
faces in Australia.
And as I said, what does success mean?
I love your anecdote about your mate who just turned...
Turns up at nine and does the bookkeeping and goes home.
And I want to drill into a bit more of success.
But then fame comes along, Andy.
And I think Greg Norman had the saying once that in America, if you have enough success
to buy a nice car, someone will walk up and say, hey, man, nice car.
In Australia, someone will run their keys down the side of that car.
Now, has that been a little bit that tall poppy syndrome in Australia?
Have you been on the receiving end of a bit of that?
I think, again, we're pretty fortunate.
We're pretty fortunate in that regard.
I know what you mean.
I remember watching Oprah and Jay-Z.
This is years ago.
And Oprah said, hey, you know, to Jay-Z, how are things going?
And he said, well, I just bought my sixth house.
And the whole crowd goes off.
And I'm thinking, imagine Karl Stefanovic turned to Hamish or anyone in Australia and
said, how are you going?
Well, I've just bought my third house.
Like, okay, there goes your career.
But I must admit.
Well, I kind of prefer the Australian approach at times.
I don't think that people should be ashamed of work they're proud of.
I'm not into gloating about people's salaries or anything like that.
I just think, you know, but I think you can still be, and people that listen to the Hamish
Nanny podcast will find this funny, but you can still be in touch with the common man
because it's a very common thing that Hamish and I say to each other.
You've lost touch with the common man.
You can still do that in heaps of ways.
It's just aren't reflected in material things.
And so, and look, I'm pretty lucky that I don't really want the flashy things.
I don't, like, that's my natural, you know, if I was, Burner Tomics is probably a different
And so, Hayman and I weren't sitting there going, gosh, I wish we could drive a Lamborghini,
but you better not for our brand.
Because that, you know, it's.
You bought a Ferrari and stuff.
So, I'm not kind of fussed by those things.
And I think that's, there's a bit of luck in that.
Like, you know, as far as like my natural demeanor probably stems from, I'm actually
massively a saver, like because of mum and dad.
You know, like I'm kind of cautious of my own stuff, like spending on other people essentially.
Love sharing what big success we've had and enjoying those types of things.
But yeah, I think people are in with a tall.
People are more likely to cut you down, yourself, you're down if you're getting ahead of yourself
Rather than just off the bat success, you know, because I don't think, you know, Chris
Hemsworth, no one's going, you know, what an asshole, you know, I think he seems to
carry himself really well.
Hugh Jackman's the same, but then there's other people that don't.
And they're the ones that will get sliced down.
You give up your anonymity, of course.
Does that impact on your life?
Or do you find that not a problem to deal with, given what you're doing?
I think that, again, for radio, because we found our notoriety through radio, it's a
different relationship.
We ask so much of our listeners to share with us and we share so much back and it's a great
And so to suddenly go, okay, well now you can't look into my life, that probably goes
against the whole structure of the show and what we're doing.
But it's a different relationship.
It's a different relationship.
I think that's the thing that I think is really important.
And I think that's probably the thing that's never, ever in awe of me.
Like, you know, I've...
I don't know about that.
I think they come up and they want to share a story or they like something, it becomes,
I feel like it's a very much more a mate kind of discussion.
They feel like they know us.
People feel comfortable coming up and having a chat with you.
And you're great in that situation too.
You seem as easily comfortable.
Because they're probably going to, there's every chance they're going to give us more
material, like there's something fun happening or whatever.
So is that how you see it?
You sort of see that interaction as part of what you do.
And then, but compare that to movie stars and supermodels.
You don't, you never really, you're doing more now because of Instagram and stuff, but
back in the day, you didn't know what those people were like and you only saw them on
a silver screen or a big billboard.
So you're a bit more awestruck.
It feels weirder to see them in the flesh.
And you know, even with my ex-partner, with Megan.
The way people react to her versus to me, if we went to the pub was extremely different.
And, or if I went out with a mate of mine that was a movie star, the way they are acting
because they're like, oh my God, we never see these people.
And they would try and sneak the photo or stuff where for me, it's just, hey mate, heard
That's interesting.
So it's quite a different transition, transaction I reckon.
But I, yeah, I love the, I'm so grateful anyone took an interest in what we were doing.
And so I'm always appreciative when people come up.
But I think with, with Megan Gale, who's very, very, very famous, you know, Australian and
your long term girlfriend for a long while was, was there more interest in, if you're
out in a pub or you found that people were more starstruck by Megan and less by you?
A hundred percent.
And it's, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's, I think it is that thing is we, there's a far
more mystery to, again, before Instagram.
Now we kind of know who people are, but that's why tonight shows used to work because we
didn't know who these people are.
Now I've got to turn in, tune into Rove because John Travolta's on and I don't know what John
I've seen him dance in Greece and I've seen him play the villain in this film, but we're
about to find out what he's actually like.
And now you can just type in John Travolta on Instagram.
So I think that, you know, talk shows lost their superpower and I think a lot of celebrities
have lost their mystique because they're sharing so much.
Now I want to ask you a question and, and I'm happy for you not to, you know, to be
So the line that you used and, and, and speaking about your, your, your former relationship
with me, and I just thought it was one of the most disarming, most extraordinary things
I think I, and I mightn't get it quite right, but you know, when you're in a public eye
and a high profile relationship ends and you know, it's clearly Megan Gayle's married and
got two kids and moved on.
But I think there was a tweet you sent out at the time that it was just, I remember reading,
I think we might've talked about it on Radar, I thought what it just, to me, it's summed
up the person you are.
I think you said something like, when I first met Megan, I wanted her to share my great
passion for the Carlton Football Club.
I didn't expect her to take it so literally because she was going on to marry Sean Hampson,
who was, who was one of the great ruckmen at Carlton at the time.
I mean, to me, that's just such a disarming thing to say and, and, and sums you up.
What was the, the, the meaning behind it?
Well, I mean, there was, it was, it's, it's a, a breakup's a tough time for anyone.
And then one that's so, so in the public eye was a unique situation for us.
And for me particularly.
Um, I never wanted anyone to feel sorry for me.
Um, but that was probably the natural inclination for people to feel when, so like after myself,
suddenly she's dating the ruckman for my, the club that I love the most, you know, and,
uh, and, and introduced her to essentially.
So it's a, so that's a, um, I didn't want anyone to feel sorry for me.
It's never, I didn't feel, I didn't feel sorry for myself in that regard.
And I felt that if, before Hamish and I are doing this.
I don't want anyone watching our shows or listening to us and thinking, oh gosh, the
sad clown, that kind of stuff, because it wasn't really the case.
So, um, yeah, it was, it was an opportunity to just to, I actually got asked it.
It was a, um, I didn't have Twitter back then, but I, I got asked it by a reporter the day
it came out and, uh, I was at the, the Portsy, um, Portsy Pro-Am, a golf, a golf tournament,
That's where I met Jared Lyle, by the way, playing in the, in the Portsy Pro-Am, uh,
and got stopped on the eighth hole where by a reporter with a camera saying, hey, um.
Literally door stopped on the eighth hole of a Pro-Am with about 60 people following
And that was off the cuff, wasn't it?
And I, and I was so, I was so worried about it, walking that hole.
About what you'd said?
What I'd said, yeah.
Um, and I, cause I thought, oh, is that.
Is that, is that flippant?
Is that, is that.
Is that disregarding the relationship?
Like all these things that you want to be a little bit protective and cautious of when
someone, um, and when two people part ways.
Um, but yeah, then the next day I saw it actually, it was actually at two in the morning cause
I had a lot of drinks that night and I saw it in the service station and I was getting
myself a water on the front page of, um.
That's the front page, isn't it?
There was a little, yeah.
On the, on the page of the Herald Sun.
And I thought, oh, that's pretty funny.
That's an extraordinary line off the cuff, I don't know why it, um, resonated with me
I suppose people will listen and say, you know what, it is great life that Andy Lee
has and so much success, but, uh, you know, is there dark times?
I mean, you sound like you deal with those things incredibly well, but what, what, what
are your strategies?
What, what, what are the things you do every day for people to share that, do you have
Do you have, you know, routines and you're always healthy and, and, and fit looking.
Is there anything you do every day that, that keeps you feeling good?
Uh, I, during this most recent period of lockdown.
I've started exercising a lot more and, and I've realized the, the mental health benefits
of, of it rather than physical health, health benefits of it.
But no, I wouldn't say I have daily routines as such, um, it's more like, it's more those
philosophies we talked about across the board of, of just airing things really quickly.
Um, and I'm also really aware that, uh, I'm in a position where I can go at a slightly
different pace at times.
I don't have children at the moment, which would have been really difficult for people
Um, we are in a position where we can choose the type of work we want to do.
Um, so I do have an advantage in that regard, see, but I think that, um, yeah, there was,
there's a great book I thought, uh, and I mentioned this on Willosophy, but, um, was
by Byron Katie called Loving What Is.
Um, and there was a period for me where, uh, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
I would get frustrated with, say, some might get frustrated with people in my life that
I don't think are doing the right thing by themselves or by me or in work situations.
And, um, I got recommended this book and I read it and I was like, yeah, this actually
makes a lot of sense to me, which is just basically, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, you should
read it, but it's called Loving What Is.
Loving What Is, yeah.
And it's basically, don't try and fight reality, you know.
She, I think that she uses the example, and again, um, I might get it wrong, but, um,
says like this, this lady, her husband is, say, say the husband's name is Paul and said,
my husband watches too much television.
Paul watched too much television and that frustrates me.
And, but if you sit there and go, no, Paul watches that amount of television, you don't
be frustrated by it anymore.
Or could Paul watch more television?
Yeah, he probably could.
You know, so why are we getting frustrated by those?
And it's about, I suppose it sits there and minding your own business, but they, it does
a thing called the turnaround, which is essentially the one thing you're frustrated about if the
opposite is also true.
So Paul, Paul watches too much television.
Paul doesn't watch enough television.
That's actually also true.
He could watch more, you know, if the opposite is all also true, um, then you basically,
you should stop worrying about it.
And it goes really deep.
I mean, they've got people like my parents don't love me.
So the question might be, well, my parents should love me.
Parents don't have to love you, you know, the opposite is also true.
It's sad, but it's also true.
So if they don't, you have to accept that reality and find the love in other relationships
or whatever it might be.
So I found that one, a really helpful mechanism for my own little frustrations and things
that were weighing on me to go, if I turn this around and is the, is the opposite also
Um, I shouldn't be worrying about this.
And you practice.
You basically use it in daily, daily sense.
They, they, they kind of in the book, and again, this is very self-helpy, which is,
which wasn't really my bag at all, but they, they tell you to stop at one point and they,
and, and write them down and then write, write the opposite down essentially.
And so you do that, but then you get quite good at doing it immediately in your head
when it comes up.
And so small frustration comes up and then, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you,
you can do that little turnaround and go, actually, what am I worried about this for?
Or am I putting too much pressure on this person?
And, and yeah, you can walk a little bit easier.
I'm keen to read it, Annie.
It sounds very practical.
I read the first bit and then got the audio book.
So you can, but it was really helpful.
Um, and I started the conversation, you know, about success.
How do you define, what does it mean to you?
Um, I think, well, happiness, I think.
Um, I think if, if you're happy and that, I reckon that's what life's for.
Um, happiness, then you're successful.
Um, and so you can find happiness, a lot of different things.
Uh, and then I, I, I get a lot of self-worth out of, uh, working, um, and hanging out
I just, he just makes me so happy.
And I love, um, laughing and creating hijinks with him and seeing how inclusive and people
pouring in more energy to that.
I really love that.
It's definitely a happy place for me.
Um, and, but yeah, I think that's, that's the key because.
I've met a lot of people over the journey and as you have, and some of them are billionaires
and are not happy.
Um, and it's nice to be able to meet those people and realize that, uh, for all the material
wants there, um, it's, uh, it can't buy you that, that happiness.
It can be a lot of fun.
You can buy a big boat with it.
I think one of the saddest images of the year to me has been, you know, watching James Packer
give testimony to this, you know, floating on his $200 million boat.
You know, he's been a very open about his own health issues and mental health issues
and just that image still sits, sticks with me as someone that has had access to so much
and, and, um, we had privilege of interviewing before.
It just seems like a genuine heartfelt person who's, you know, as you said, access to so
many things, but, but not happiness.
Can I come back to, uh.
A friend of mine, um, I, uh, was at a sporting event with him.
I'm going to be very vague cause I don't want, um, the names here, but, uh, and I said, how
And he's like, oh yeah, it's pretty weird.
Dad sold his company.
And I was like, oh wow, cool.
Like what, what do you sell it for?
Like, you know, we're that close.
And he said four.
And I went, what's a weird, I'm like, what, four, four million?
Nah, it would have been worth more than that.
And I said, right, right.
And he goes, and he's decided he's not going to hold onto it.
He's just going to bequeath it.
He's just going to give it to the kids.
Three of us split three ways.
And then I've dawned on me, it's like four billion.
And I went, oh my God.
You're going to have $1.6 billion.
He goes, yeah, next week.
And his life changed for the worst.
It's been three years now.
He's back on, back on track, but it was a strange thing to have to go through.
Suddenly you're in a position where going to work doesn't feel like I should be doing
What, what, what, what is life?
What, what self-worth are you getting out of it?
And, um, yeah, we're really off the rails and a couple of rehabs later and he's back
and family and all, all, all.
But I think when we talk about be careful what you wish for, and I know there's, there's
a point in between.
There's a, there's a point where certainly money to help pay the bills and not have to
worry about these things is so great.
But yeah, if you asked whether you wanted $1.6 billion tomorrow, it'd be, uh, it'd
be a deeper thought for me.
I'm not sure whether, um, it'd be something I'd be taking.
It's a great conversation, Andy.
I think there's a fascinating study to be done and, and Beck and I, my wife talk about
this a lot and, you know.
And you, you meet a lot of people and you see, you know, um, a lot of people who are
bequeathed money and, and, and, and you see often the family destruction that comes as
a result of that.
And I think Warren Buffett, the great investor, I think he, um, paid his kids school fees
and might've even not paid the whole of their college.
And his, his line was, why would I take away from them the opportunity to achieve?
And I, you know, I've got access to a hundred million dollars, but his idea was I'm not
going to give them anything because, uh, because of that fact.
And so you, you wonder what that, if there is a sweet spot, isn't there where, you know,
clearly too much can be, uh, can be more harmful than, than good.
One of my closest mates was, um, Spoonfeed's whole life going through and we had a ball
and, and on his motor pass card, people had motor pass cards back in the day where you
could get, uh, your, your, um, petrol.
We'd all fill up our cars on his dad's motor pass card and then all these types of things.
But you could see the lack of real, you could like real world.
And basically he ended up dropping out of uni to his credit.
His dad said, he went back to his dad and said, oh, look, hey, you're going to have
to help me out again.
And he, his dad said, nah, you go work in the warehouse for a year at this company.
And if you do, I'll give you a job in the sales team.
And he, to his credit, he said, if you miss a day though, you're gone.
And to his credit, he went and did that for a year.
He's now got his own company running.
He's very, very successful.
But he talks about going back and actually waking up and getting out to the warehouse
while we're all having fun at uni still and didn't miss a beat was the huge reality check
So yeah, there's something in it for sure.
Can I ask, um, you know, back about, you said the happy place with you and Hamish working
together and you, you just listened to the two of you and it just sounds like fun and
you watched gap year and it's just, it just is and looks like so much fun, but you started
off as young uni students.
And as you said, no kids.
You could pour your life into it.
And then you get older and, you know, Hamish got kids now and, and, and you've got your
partner back and life changed.
Has that changed your, your friendship?
Is it, is it put strains on it at times or?
I wouldn't say strains.
It's just, it's just definitely changed it for sure.
There was a while there that, um, you know, it became more like, I reckon after four,
four or five years, it became more like a marriage because we suddenly could turn around
and see what this relationship meant to a lot of people.
Just to the company.
We're working for how much money that it makes the company and all the people that we're
employing and having fun with.
And so we're like, oh, hang on, let's preserve this.
You know, we had the, uh, our discussion about it wasn't like need to be front of mind, but
just like, Hey, we need to kind of check in more.
It probably becomes more of a marriage than it does, uh, you know, just to knock about
friendship for that period because you're like, when in more stressful times, we've
got kids to worry about.
We've got these assets, we've got these things, you know, that kind of thing.
And so we checked in.
We've done a lot with each other during that time, um, which is unusual for friends.
So, so, um, that's, I'm proud of that.
Um, and, uh, and then, but that's a big change in a friendship.
Um, and then off, on the, off the back of that, it's just been, to be honest, I think
this, this last year, couple of years is probably back to the closest.
And I think it's because we are doing less together.
You know, um, the podcast is once a week.
You can hang out and not talk about work.
You, we, we go, we, you can go, go grab a beer, um, in the park and we'll go kick the
footy with his son and just muck around.
And we've done that, which I've just loved and I know he's loved.
And so it's, that's certainly something when you're on the treadmill and you've got five
radio shows a week and in the break.
You're filming TV shows.
You probably can't catch up as much and just not talk about, you know, where we're going,
what we're doing.
And is it hard to do side projects when the two of you are so linked and your success
How do you, how do you work through that?
No, we've always encouraged it.
People have said like, you know, even with, um, with pain with Lego masters, which is
And, and, and, uh, people like, Oh, well, how you feel about that?
I was like, we've always done other projects.
That one's just a huge commercial success.
So, but I'm off in a band playing, you know, doing that.
Hearing on the front bar, doing a great job.
You know, I did talking about your generation, uh, short films and the books, they're all
individual things and he's doing the same.
It's just that when something's so there and on billboards, people must go, Oh, I wonder
It's like, no, we've, we've always had our side break.
I think Hayme did 56 episodes of Spicks and Specks back from 2011.
And then seven or six onwards.
So like he was doing that a lot.
Um, and we make time for our own stuff all the time.
And the one thing that I would say to, you know, for teams of duo stuff, the learnings
you get from going off and doing something by yourself, often we come back and go, gee,
it's hard to work when you're by yourself to each other, but just the small learnings
of like, Hey, this is interesting.
They're doing this this way.
You can get very insular with the group of mates because we still make our TV shows with
our mates from uni.
You've joined a group, uh, with, uh, Rob Sitch, Pat Cummings, Marcus Bond and Pelly, the, uh,
the AFL captain and young superstar and Pat Australian cricket superstar.
And I think maybe, uh, well, far, far from, from that, uh, you've had a long friendship
with, with Pat and, and, you know, Rob really well, but can you tell us about what it's
been like, uh, for you in terms of your own leadership, getting together with a group
Uh, I must admit, I, I didn't know.
I didn't know what I was getting myself into at the start.
I got, Patty asked me, um, to whether I could come, come in and arrogantly, I thought I
was coming in as a mentor, which clearly you were.
So, um, Matt who, who ran, ran it, he said that, uh, that Pat had recommended me and,
and, and Rob, but also recommended me to the group.
So that was nice to be endorsed by those guys.
I'm speak, you know, I think so highly of them, but I thought it was a one-off.
And then when I got there and they said, uh, in, in over the next 12, one and a half hour
sessions, I'm like, Holy shit.
What the hell have I got myself into?
So in true Andy style went, oh yeah, sorry.
I just, I'm only committing to a small amount of this, but I'll see how I go.
And then, um, really, really got a lot out of it and really enjoyed it.
And, um, yeah, I mean, what I found really interesting about the, uh, the leadership
course as it is, is it's peer to peer leadership.
That's something that I respond to a lot better than, um, I don't really respond that well
to those, the, the big, what I feel like.
Cult like, um, you know, empowering things.
Um, I know it works for a lot of other people, so it's not a knock on them, but it all feels,
well, to me at times a little disingenuine and a little bit one size fits all.
Um, and I don't think that leadership's about that.
In fact, I think it's the opposite.
The great leaders I've had come across in, in my time have been able to, you know, especially
serve up advice bespoke to, to who they're giving it to.
And, and that was what was really great about this peer to peer stuff.
It was an opportunity to chat.
We had insights from people that I admire so much in, in Rob Sitch, uh, and Bond and
Pelly, um, Patty Cummins and Luke Balls in there as well.
And I suppose it's different, um, you know, uh, areas and, and you're, you're in the creative
field and the media field with incredible success and elite sports people.
And, uh, you know, it wouldn't necessarily, you'd think there'd be crossover.
Why is there, and what are the sort of things that clearly there's some private conversations
there, but where, where's the learning been of benefit to you?
Uh, well, thankfully none of the sessions had a beep test, uh, because I think the Bond
would have us all covered.
I don't think Patty would go there if they weren't there to be honest.
And Rob's a, Rob's a dark horse on that.
Um, what, what was great, I've talked a lot about this with sports people.
Um, there's a lot of parallels, um, with what we do in entertainment, um, with, with what
can happen in the sporting field, which is particularly live television.
You go out, it's a singular moment.
You're meant to perform.
And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
um, and there's a lot of people that are really passionate about it.
Now it's more passion in a sporting sense.
You've got huge crowds and all this stuff and it's real time feedback for us.
It's critics or, um, whether people tune in, um, nowadays a bit more, uh, online, you can
see real time feedback about how something might be going.
Uh, so it's interesting talking about those things about performance.
Second aspect was with TV shows, it's a very small amount of time to get it right.
They cost so much.
So pre-production is very short.
You get together a crew.
You're trying to find a gel and find this team unity really quickly.
And then you shoot and it's all gone.
And then everyone goes their other ways.
And that happens in cricket specifically with IPL.
And you might go and play at another franchise and big bash leagues and so on.
And how do you find a group of people, get them to gel quickly?
So we talked a lot about that.
And then a lot of other stuff was just life hacks, you know,
as Sitchy put it, the things like how do you organize your email or, you know,
just anything that you felt you could give to the group which just helps you,
And rather than being taught or spoken out or taught,
essentially what would happen is we'd meet up and you'd always have a question
in the back of your mind like, hey, this happened to me this week
and how would you guys have approached that or have you had that in your world?
And here three or four great leaders go,
I have encountered that, was powerful and also just as powerful
as when someone went, I don't know.
I don't know what I'd do because that is so comforting.
People feel that they need to answer all the time.
And it can be just as comforting to hear, I don't know what I'd do
because it means, oh, great, I'm not alone or I don't feel like a deal anymore
that I don't really know how to deal with this moment.
And I love the fact that people, there's incredible success level
that you've had and all that group.
and other people are constantly looking at ways that you can self-reflect
and improve and it makes sense that that is the type of person you are
and not surprised that the group have enjoyed your contribution in every way.
And we've been talking about what we see these dimensions
of what modern leadership looks like.
So please be as expansive or as brief as you like,
but we're picking up some commonality.
And the first one to me is self-leadership.
And if I ask you about that, self-leadership,
what does it mean to you?
The opportunity to reflect it in your own world,
word and what you're doing.
We talked about this a bit in our group.
We, my, one of the mantras that we kind of stumbled across
for Radio Karate, which is Hamish and my company with Tim and Ryan
was particularly when it came to, to leading teams
with Gap Year, the travel shows,
we would travel to US, employ 50 to 60 people,
have them on the show and only take 10 max.
Then the next year you go to the next country,
employ 50, 60 people.
So you're rotating a whole crew trying to create the same show.
You don't have the same problem twice.
And what pillars can we do to ensure that we try and create
this culture really quickly?
So when you say employ 50 or 60, but you only take 10 on the trip.
So we take 10 from Australia.
So 40 US citizens that you haven't met before,
you employ on the ground.
That's, that's big on a show.
Then you might have someone in graphics department
who's fantastic year one.
So you're like, oh, that's easy.
You don't need anyone there.
And then the year two,
you're over in Britain and you're like, you know,
oh no, we should have got more people here because you don't know
whether you're going to have the same type of skill sets as you travel.
And so what we found was it was important to reflect
on every single element of the show and also every single person
that we worked with.
And it sounds like it's a bit, you know, self-bashing,
but Tim and I and the guys sat down and went,
what if it was our fault that these person didn't succeed
or didn't get the best out of them?
You go, you know, that guy was crap.
We need to replace them.
Um, but what, what, what could we have done to give them
a better chance to succeed?
Um, and that's part of the self leadership that I've really enjoyed
of recent times is like, how can we give everyone that I'm working
with or I was working or working for, or, or they're working
for me, their best chance to succeed.
Um, and taking a step back and going, what am I doing
to help that rather than just expecting of people?
Um, so that's probably, probably the main.
Brilliant thought.
And I, I, I think of, uh, the sporting environment, Andy,
where it always in the past coaches, he can't kick.
He's not a great mark.
We're always telling you what you couldn't do.
And I always just think, isn't the art of coaching.
We need you to do one or two of those things better.
How do I support you to get better?
Rather than this is a blank, uh, line through you because that
skill is not something that can I just follow?
I'm, I'm fascinated in that because you're going to live
and die by those 40 people.
Did you find you got better, you know, you, you did
several gap years.
How'd you identify good people?
I mean, without stereotyping, you go to the U S and everyone
can do everything and they're the best at everything.
So, so it's actually very, very in their minds or is that
actually, well, no, it's in their mind.
So it's actually really hard to interview for.
So you sit down, you talk to some lighting guy who goes,
yeah, I'm the best there is.
You know, I can light this.
I can light the statue of Liberty from here, you know, and, and
she's like, oh, this guy seems pretty good.
Then the next guy gives you the same kind of treatment.
So it's, so it was actually very difficult to try and work
out who to go with.
And then you head to Britain and you're talking to someone
who's got an amazing credentials and you ask them a question
like, oh, look, I'm not sure if I'd be the best at this, you
know, so the difference in personalities was, was fascinating.
Um, in Thailand, uh, I think it was 50% of the crew didn't
speak in English.
So, and same with when we're in Buenos Aires.
So you had to trust the top people that they were
translating back to you.
All in, in South America, the director directed in Spanish.
So, um, all the cameramen spoke Spanish and we just smiled and
hoped then Tim would be tapping on the show director cause it was bilingual.
Did the humor translate?
Were they getting the gags?
They got the gags, which is really great.
Um, so, I mean, it was a long winded answer to the, to the, to the question,
but, um, what you needed to do is make sure that you were set up so clearly from
the head and, and that was, and that is just the.
Structure of what we're trying to create was so clear and so defined in the head
roles that we are taking across there.
So they know what's expected of them and then they can, they can then employ the
people, uh, that is going to, that they're going to answer to those people.
So our key personnel that we hired in country, we were more rigorous with, with,
with, with, with getting them on board and we chose really well.
And this probably relates to the second dimension.
We talk about positively impacting others in your environment and of office,
you're someone that feels like every environment you come in, there's a
positive energy when you're around.
Do you think about that?
How you, how you go about it?
I've never felt that I, uh, I go, I better be positive today.
Just happens for you.
So, you know, maybe someone will analyze it back, you know, at some point we'll
sit down with the council, they might analyze where it comes from, but I would
say, um, you know, upbringing is part of that really loving siblings, um, amazing
work environment.
So I've had the whole way through.
I feel like, um, Southern Cross Austerio when, when it was just Austerio and I
first moved, came here.
Um, I thought the people culture was amazing in those, in that early period.
And, um, yeah, borrowing and trying and just having great mentors along the way,
I think helps and maybe natural disposition.
There's some good DNA there for sure.
Andy, no doubt about you've, uh, had some incredible visions around what you've
And you mentioned gap year and, uh, you know, the Hamish Dandy show and all the
things you do, uh, a unique vision.
How do you go about creating and sharing those visions?
Uh, look, it was pretty easy when it came to home because, um, he made me laugh a
So he'd go, Hey, how about we do this?
I'm like, yeah, absolutely.
That sounds great.
Um, so I think what was, again, we were lucky.
We, we got to make the shows with our best mates from school.
Um, we found that a challenge when we, the shows got bigger, for instance,
first season of gap year, we had such a shorthand between the four of us that if
I, if Haynes had an idea to me or vice versa, I could tell Tim or I, and we know
it's going to end up on screen pretty much like we thought.
And as soon as there were more people along the chain, you go, how's this guy
not getting this?
Well, it's because he didn't spend 10 years hanging out with you guys.
So that was a, um, was a challenge.
And again, I'm big believer of pitching yourself.
Um, making sure that you're the one that's, the people that are going to capture it, that,
that, that, that are going to do the whole thing, explain yourself what you want to do
from the outset or what this show is going to be, um, and what the idea is.
And I love looking at people's eyes and seeing if they get it, you know, you can, and, and
if they, if they don't have any questions or if you feel like they're not quite, quite
there, not necessarily in front of a big group going, do you not get it?
Just pulling them aside and going, Hey, did that make sense?
And, and I feel like, oh, awful.
Did that make sense?
You know, whatever.
And, and get them asking that question.
Cause often we think about shows or an idea so deeply that we're down at stage 10 and
you've forgotten where it came from.
You know, the tree's already grown and you've forgotten what the seed looks like.
But when you're pitching that again, you're already starting, you're, you're telling them
stage 10 and they're like, I have no idea what they're talking about.
So, um, there, those are really important things to do in.
I find, um, at, at, at, at the very beginning to set the, everybody with the, with the straight
So if it hasn't been any lost in translation or any whispers where you've come back in two
weeks later and gone, why the hell are we over here?
We're meant to be traveling that way.
John Worsfold, uh, on this podcast, Andy was talking about same thing.
You think you've come up with a game plan that's going to win a grand final and you
maybe focus on defense and you can see straight away.
The defenders are sort of growing in stature and the forwards are going, my life's going
to be so much harder because he doesn't care.
And you realize that you then need to go back and find out how to interpret it.
You might've had, you know, as he described what you thought was really clear vision,
but it's going to be taken in that case, 42 different ways.
How do you try and connect people?
It sounds similar to the way you were, you were describing it.
I reckon it really helps if you, if, if you've got another colleague there for anything,
for any meeting, because we just all interpret.
Anything so differently, like I've walked out, you know, it might be pitching shows
in the U S and walked out with my lawyer and said, um, that was, that was great because
they said this, he's like, I didn't interpret that way.
And so we're sitting there having a discussion as to what they actually meant by a certain
sentence or so on.
And I'm thinking, wow, if I was there by myself, we wouldn't be there trying to dissect what
was going on and what is the next question we can ask them back to clarify.
I could walk out of a meeting thinking it all went really well and hey, might go to
me, hey, that was a bit weird.
And so it does help having a person there that shares the vision with you.
So you can take in that, that, and, and, and, and properly prosecute how people are taking,
uh, taking on what you're saying.
Great piece of advice all around, uh, talking about learning and improvement, Andy, through
the lens of curiosity.
We see that these great leaders we're talking to, like you, curiosity seems to be a really
Does that resonate with you?
I, I love, you know, a bit, this definitely stems from my dad, you know, if a question
comes up, we both have to find out the answer pretty quickly.
Reaching, now it's reaching for your phone, Google.
It used to be, we used to hypothesize a lot, you know, when we were younger.
Um, and, and now you've got the answer in your pocket, which I'm not sure is better
Um, no curiosity, to be honest, I think that's both outside of, uh, of, of performing.
I like finding out.
I like finding out what makes people tick and also what makes things work or not work.
Um, but I also think it's our best place for Hamish and I to play comedically.
I think when the show is curious and we're going on adventures and want to find out things,
um, it's that little journey is, is what we find the best and the most fun and turns
into maybe the most funny.
So what I love about someone like Rob, Rob Sitch and, and, uh, and, and Marcus, uh, and,
and, and Patty and all of them, but in that special group we had for that leadership group
is they were all really good.
They were really curious as to what, that, you know, I would have been interested to
see who, who talked the most.
Cause I, I, there wasn't, I never walked away from any session going, you know, probably
me talking the most, but like, it really felt balanced the whole way through.
Um, because everyone felt like they really wanted to listen and I felt, you know, actually
I'm getting so much out of this.
I want to do the listening here.
Um, and it's, it just makes for quick learning, I reckon, if you, if you're happy to be curious
Except, except the feedback.
That goes with it along the way.
Uh, communicating with clarity is, uh, is something we're also seeing, uh, that's been
your life really.
Is that something you've refined?
And now you've got big teams of people that you manage and you lead.
Is that evolved over time, how you communicate?
Uh, yeah, absolutely.
Um, I talk to a bunch of people nowadays about just the language to use as well.
Like I think language is so important when it comes to communicating messages.
Um, and it's not with not being disingenuine, but to use the language that someone's used
to, um, the way I'm going to talk to, uh, you know, a knock about younger person, uh,
that's working for us is going to be very different to the way I talk to a lawyer, like
in the language I use, um, to make sure that we're all understanding what we're trying
Uh, so even with, you know, a topic, a topic at the moment, which we don't want to go into
too deeply because the vaccines.
Um, in talking to friends and colleagues about the language to use and some people,
a good example is I had a mate of mine going, oh, look, I've got to tell one of my employees,
the government are going to force us to do this.
So I'm going to have to force you to do that.
And I was like, well, just don't use the word force like this.
Let's just take, take that out.
If, if you change that sentence to it's a government requirement.
So it's going to turn into me being, having to be a government requirement for my workplace
Suddenly just in that substitute of one word.
It's a different feeling.
A feeling, a meaning, and the conversation started really differently.
So, um, you know, putting the, that argument aside, I think it just highlighted though
how words can be really important, um, in specific words.
So if there's a more delicate conversation to be had, uh, across the board, I do spend
more time on that stuff.
And it is a great life story.
And again, it's funny, everyone's reluctant to say, let's not talk about, you know, I
feel sort of compelled to talk about living in a time where there is a mandate, you know,
on employers that, uh, in the city of Victoria and worldwide effectively in most places
that unless you take a medical product, then you're going to be banned from work.
And that's, there's no, you're almost just countering what you're saying straight away
to say there's no political statement in this.
But to me, to, to, to not have a debate anymore, you just sensitively thinking about the language.
Well, that's out of your hand if you're an employer, it really is.
But what you're talking about is having some empathy in that conversation.
Now it mightn't change anything.
It doesn't feel like there's been a lot of empathy.
At least in this conversation, which is.
No, it's certainly divisive.
You know, you look at things like, um, there's a law for a while there.
If they pulled out your, um, your date of birth, you're going to fight a war in Vietnam.
Like, you know, I personally would prefer a needle in my arm, but the, uh, so it's, we
have, you know, putting, putting it all aside and not, not, I'm not swaying either way.
I'm just saying that there is context to all the stuff.
I think you're spot on that the language used across the board from media, from our, um,
public figures, but also trailing down to employers that aren't really trained to deliver
But that's, what's really hard.
That's, what's really, really hard about the subject.
If you put, and, and putting the vaccine aside, if you put anyone in charge, deliver a message
that they're not trained to do, it's going to be really difficult for them.
And it's like the junior coach delivering the harshest message to a player opposed to
You know, they're, they're, they're more than likely to stuff it up.
Um, and then you can, it becomes divisive.
I'm not sure if you've listened to the, um, the breakdown, it's a podcast, uh, about rugby
union and its failings.
No, I haven't, no.
Uh, you don't have to be into rugby union, but it talks about how, um, back in the day,
David Campisi, Nick Fade-Jones and like rugby union, late eighties, early nineties, biggest
Like it was unbelievable.
So it was, and then.
Legends of, uh, Australian sport, all those names.
And they had all the money.
They, they were flying.
And they just managed to squander it all.
And it explains it all.
But the Israel Folau conversation comes up.
Michael Chek is the coach at the time.
And he said it became, um, adversarial.
It became too hard for other people to back down.
And that's where we are with vaccine.
But as soon as, and I, I got a great learning out of that, listening to that podcast and
listening to Michael Chek and going, that's a great thing to take on board for anyone
I'm working with ever, or, or trying to do anything with is as soon as.
As soon as it becomes this or else.
It's very difficult to meet in the middle again.
Um, and, and that's where Michael thought it fell down with Israel Folau when you've
got the best player in the world, almost.
And you're sacking him in anything in work.
If it's someone's living conditions, their work hours, anything there's, there can come
People don't want to get Dennis Rodman doesn't want to go to training for the Chicago bulls,
whatever it might be that, that the last dance, the great doco, where you see a coach, a coach,
a coach that understands that sending Dennis Rodman to Las Vegas for two days in the middle
of an important season is the best thing for the team.
There's not many, there's not many coaches that would do that.
But that's where I'm talking about bespoke advice and leadership on purpose built for
Um, where a lot of coaches would go, nah, you train as hard as everyone else, uh, or
you can see the door, you can walk out of it.
And it's not one size fits all.
Is it, is it, Andy?
And I, um, I'm referring to a lot of, um, I feel examples today.
It's probably, you know, clearly part of my life, but I, Max Gorm was a premiership captain
this year for Melbourne Football Club.
I know you love your AFL as a big Carlton man.
To me, he would never have been a captain in the previous year because he's not your
stereotypical alpha male.
And someone would've said, that's not fit.
And you would have missed out on one of the great leaders we've seen because he's purely
He's got this great joy.
He doesn't take himself too seriously.
but he inspires players in a way that because he's been allowed
to be himself, which is a great credit to the people around him.
Not surprised that he turned out the way that he did
with great success.
Final question in terms of these dimensions of leadership is collaboration
and the importance of collaboration.
You've been in one of the great collaborations in Australia.
When I ask you about that, what comes to mind?
I love collaborating with anyone.
I don't particularly, even with team sports,
even with individual sports, I prefer to play doubles
than singles tennis.
I don't know why.
Maybe it's sharing the blame or the pressure.
Maybe I'm not strong enough to step up.
But I love sharing the success.
I think that, to be honest, I think the shared success is almost
as great as individual success.
But shared failure is 50 times better than individual failure.
Good way to think of it.
I really feel like it's.
You're playing the odds there.
So, yeah, I mean, Haim and I are in a real lucky position where not only
do we make each other laugh, best of friends, but the product worked.
And, you know, some would argue continues to work.
We'll get a tap on the shoulder one day and they'll say,
you've had your time ball, boys.
And so you just want to preserve that.
And we take that really seriously.
And, you know, obviously I only can speak on my behalf.
But I just, I love it so much that I'll do anything to make sure that it's
nurtured in the right way.
What an amazing way to think about it.
I think there's any argument that it continues to work.
And I think that's, you can put that one to bed.
The final two questions I've been asking all the leaders I've been fortunate
enough to spend time with, including you, starting with,
who's the greatest leader in your life?
What I love about the world we live in is if I know to lean on someone
for a certain situation.
Um, so I don't think there is a, I guess that's why there's a coaching
panel on, on a football team, but there's, uh, amazing mentors that
are 30 years older than me that I, that I'll call up in a, in a moment
where I'm like, you know, something particularly stupid with business.
And then if it came down to whether this is funny or not, I'll call
Hamish in a heartbeat, you know, like, you know, so.
I don't think it's an individual person.
I think it's the sum of all the parts.
Um, I've been really thankful to, to Rob Sitch who I know you've, um,
done a podcast with because, uh, along the ride, I've been able to ring him
and go, what'd you do here and what's happening with this?
And, and he probably doesn't even, he loves TV so much.
He probably doesn't realize that I'm sitting there scouring down my notes,
but, um, yeah, it's, it's hard for me to put, put a singular person on it.
And, um, I think it'd probably be unfair to a lot of people in my life.
I love the answer.
If you could collaborate with anyone in the world, who would you go to?
Another good answer.
It's a sort of semi-loaded question that one, isn't it, Andy?
I'm going to get a story out of this.
Andy's had enough of Hamish and he really always wanted to.
If Hamish says Lima or something.
I wish I had that in the bank.
It would have been brilliant.
Um, have you thought about anyone overseas or anyone that you've, you've.
Uh, there's people I admire, but, um, it's about how people work.
Not about what they've done.
It's to me that I'm, you know, I, I'll, I've loved watching, um, individual performers.
You know, it's Rick edge face and David Tennant is an actor recent times.
And, um, but I've no idea whether it'd be fun to work with them.
Um, and the work has to be fun.
Uh, in my mind and.
You know, you have to.
your Judd Apatows and all these people that are obviously comedy gurus
and legends, but, yeah, it would be, thankfully,
I've got to meet a bunch of them along the ride.
But you can't necessarily put two, I'm categorizing myself
as a brilliant comedian, but you can't necessarily put two great creators
together and expect it to work, and I'm really mindful of that.
So, yeah, there'd certainly be a fair few beers before committing
to anything like that.
You can't manufacture chemistry, can you?
And sometimes it's the most abstract relationship, isn't it?
It would be surprise works, and you're right,
as you put two people in a room that you think will be great,
it doesn't always work that way, does it?
No, I actually think it's the opposite a little bit in our, you know,
we actually do have a situation in footy now where there are two full forwards.
Most teams have got two big forwards.
But, you know, for a while, they still need to work in tandem.
They still need to give themselves the space.
And in the comedy world, you, and we experience this when we're trying
to cast from, you know, my new TV show, The 100,
when you're putting the panel together, you're like,
who is actually going to help each other out and not just compete,
compete the whole time rather than help?
And so that would be an important part of it, sure.
It's always fun, Andy, to catch up.
It's always positive, and I'm always appreciative of your time.
Really appreciate it.
Great to see you, mate.
Empowering Leaders was presented by me, Luke Darcy,
produced by Matt Dwyer, with audio production by Darcy Thompson.
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