Adam Schwab Bringing People Back To The Office To Boost Their Mental Health

Like if someone's caring for a parent or kids, we'll do everything we can to work with them.

But if someone's a 25-year-old tech bro, like you come into the office, mate.

There's no need, there's no reason why you shouldn't.

It's really easy to hire people who work from home.

It's just easier as a manager to say work from home.

The harder thing to do is let's get in.

Let's make sure your mental health's right.

Let's make sure your collaboration's right.

You've got much more chance of being promoted if you're working from the office.

The data came out of Bloomberg a couple of weeks ago, 50% more chance of being fired

if you're working remotely.

This week's conversation on the Empowering Leaders podcast is with one of the most clear

thinking, intelligent, and capable people I think I have ever met, Adam Swobb, the CEO

and co-founder of Luxury Escapes.

Catching up with Adam for this conversation, it's easy to see in my mind why Luxury Escapes

has become such a trusted and respected brand.

You're going to hear Adam talk about the sophisticated way that he and his team look

after each other, and that has led to Luxury Escapes being one of the most

sought-after places to work in the country.

Adam Swobb is very passionate about getting people back into the office, and you'll hear

him explain why he believes that this is actually a more compassionate and caring thing to do

than allowing people to work from home.

If you're an aspiring entrepreneur or someone who's got a vision and you're wanting to make

it happen, then I'm sure you're going to love this conversation with Adam Swobb as much

as I did.

People like Adam Swobb, the founder of Luxury Escapes, who inspire the work that we do at

Alita.

Go to alitacollective.com, check out our signature Alita Connect program.

We facilitate and connect groups of five to six people around the globe to learn, to connect,

and to share.

You don't have to be the founder of Luxury Escapes to be part of it.

You can sign up and book a discovery call.

We would love to chat to you today.

Huge thank you to the team at Temper Bedding, to Jason Nicholas and his team for their ongoing

support of bringing conversations like this one with Adam Swobb to the table.

Temper is a mattress like no other.

Investing in your sleep is what you need.

One of the great investments you can make in your life.

I encourage you to check out Temper today.

Adam Swobb is the founder and CEO of Luxury Escapes, an online travel booking platform

that generates more than a billion dollars of luxury travel experiences a year.

Adam started his career as a mergers and acquisitions lawyer at Freehills before embarking on a number

of entrepreneurial pursuits, leading to an incredible success story called Luxury Escapes.

He's the co-host of the brilliant Contrarians podcast, chairman of online art marketplace

Bluthumb.com.

I'm a board member of private media and in his spare time runs marathons without shoes

on.

Adam, you strike me.

Great to see you, first of all.

Thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me, Daz.

You strike me as someone that's got great discipline and focus in everything you do.

Is that accurate and where did that come from?

I don't know if I do, actually.

I think I was never a professional sports person like you, so I think that's a different

level of focus you need to compete at that level.

I think I just like to, I'm somebody who's always been satisfied with stuff that's pretty

menial.

I used to work at Colby.

I used to work at Colby.

I used to work at Colby.

I used to work at Colby.

I used to work at Colby.

I used to work at Colby.

I used to work at Colby.

I used to work at Colby.

I used to work at Colby.

I used to work at Colby.

I was happy to stack shelves.

I was happy to do whatever.

I worked for my uncle as a lawyer.

He was a lawyer when I was 13, 14, filing the most boring job in the world, but I was

kind of okay with it.

So I've always been someone who's sort of happy with what I'm doing as long as I can

get the job done.

So it's sort of less about super high performance, more about just trying to get as much right

as we can day in, day out.

But I see you're inspired to be vegetarian by the Netflix show Game Changers.

It had an impact on a lot of people.

You're inspired to run barefoot on the back of the great book, Born to Run.

A lot of people are inspired, but they might last six weeks or a couple of weeks.

You stay the course, don't you?

You've been vegetarian ever since and you've run without shoes ever since.

Yeah.

Credit to my wife.

She became vegetarian before me and both of us ate heaps of meat and I knew I was eating

too much meat at the time.

And you hear all that.

Things about why meat's not good or good or whatever.

But clearly anything not moderation is not great.

I was eating too much meat.

I was probably getting a bit heavier than I should have.

So I tried a bunch of stuff.

This is probably five years ago.

I tried a few different, how am I going to lose weight?

And I was sort of caught 80 kilos at the time.

Wanted to get to 71, 72.

How do I get there?

One thing was I started fasting, which sort of everyone does now.

It was sort of early days of IF.

Started doing that.

Still doing it.

Intermittent fasting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So to explain that again to people, tell me what your version of that is.

So my version is I'll generally...

I eat dinner at seven o'clock, six o'clock, seven o'clock, or stop eating by about seven

ideally.

Different if you've got something on, you can't always do that, but try and finish by

seven and then probably eat again at 12 o'clock the next day.

So I do kind of like a 17 hour, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter.

And the basic idea of that is that you're giving your body all that recuperative time.

You're not putting other fuel in that makes it work harder.

And there's a huge amount of research into why that's a positive thing.

That's worked for you?

Yeah.

I think Chris Hemsworth did it in his show when he did those sort of six different episodes.

One of them was on fasting.

And yeah, that's the theory for me.

I just do it just, I'm eating less calories essentially.

It's why I started doing it.

I used to be in big breakfast.

I'd had meat at breakfast, always unhealthy stuff at breakfast.

And just cutting that out, I found really helpful.

And also I find I get less hungry now than I did when I ate breakfast or when I ate breakfast.

So I'll try and always do something in the morning.

It might not be a 5k run, whatever, it might be longer, but I'll try.

If I don't do anything in the morning, I should find I get hungrier.

If I can run 5k plus, I find I'm easily get to a midday.

Yeah.

If I can get to 1.32, you just sort of keep going forever.

Yeah.

So I'll generally eat at 12, 12.31, whatever.

When we finish this, we'll do it.

But so it was a combination of that.

I started using MyFitnessPal, which is just gamifying sort of weight loss.

It's a really simple app.

The more exercise you do, you get bonus for it.

And the more you eat, the more calories.

So it's just a simple calorie counting app.

They gamify.

Did those two things.

And then watched the game changer stuff and thought, why don't I do the veg as well?

Give it a try.

I didn't think I'd last a month or two months to your earlier point.

And it's been a long time.

It's been a lot easier these days to be vegan.

I think a lot of people sort of still look down on vegetarians as not being proper men

or whatever.

Funny enough, like some of the strongest people and fastest, best ultra marathon runners tend

to be vegetarian or vegan.

But I find it just being a lot lighter.

Like you have a biggish meal, finish the meal, and 10 minutes later, you're feeling light

again.

Yeah.

Do you have your day?

I'm fascinated by the ability to stick to something, Adam, because that is what the

whole weight loss industry is about.

People can't do that.

Or the fitness industry.

The fitness industry relies on people not turning up to the gym.

If everyone did, it would be overloaded.

But is it just part of you?

If something works for you, you've got been able to, is there a skill in that?

Or is it just because you're in the elite percentage on that?

I don't know.

I think it definitely is a habit.

So like my biggest weakness clearly is eating sugar.

Like I eat too much chocolate or sugar.

If I eat chocolate one night, I'll open the Pandora's box and eat it every night.

If I just say, don't eat it, and I go, I didn't eat it last night, I was fine.

And then I'll try and brush my teeth straight after dinner.

So you just can't eat after that because it just tastes weird.

So you sort of force yourself in a way.

But you also don't want to just take any kind of joy out of life as well.

So there's a bit of a balance.

But I don't want to open that Pandora's box if I can avoid it of just being unhealthy.

So I parlay that, Adam, into to create a global travel business in a highly competitive space

and have the success you've had.

I suspect the discipline that you've got is a huge part of that.

And then also, I listen to your stuff.

There's a nice.

There's a nice natural self-confidence that comes out of the way you express yourself.

It almost feels a bit like a superpower.

Have you always had that belief in yourself that whatever I put my mind to, I'm going to succeed at?

It's a really good question in terms of looking at founders or entrepreneurs or founders in general.

Do you need to be almost to the point of narcissistic, optimistic, or do you need to be paranoid?

And the answer kind of is both.

You need to have the confidence.

So every time you start, anybody who starts a business, everybody's looking at you.

You've started a business.

You've got plenty of business.

People go, oh, you've got no chance.

You're a fool.

You're a fool.

If it was good, somebody would have done it, and you're not able to do it.

So nobody ever looks at somebody else starting a business and goes, that person's going to succeed.

There's always reasons why.

So you've got to be able to get over that.

Me and my co-founder, best mate from school, Jeremy, started our first business in 2004.

It was a backpacker apartment business.

I was a lawyer at the time.

He was a banker.

People thought we were insane for doing that.

So I took a leave of absence, and everybody thought, oh, this guy's a complete moron.

What's he doing?

Leaving a blue-chip law firm for this random backpacking thing.

And people probably thought a similar thing of Jez for leaving A&Z at the time.

But we sort of had – and I give Jez a lot of credit for this.

And this is why he's actually a really good investor.

He was early in Bitcoin, all that kind of stuff.

He's completely willing to ignore every bit of noise and just push forward on what he thinks is the right strategy.

It doesn't always work for him, but when it works, it really works.

And that is a huge – I'm not as good at him as that, but I've been able to take his lead a bit.

So he's really good at that.

So we are – we do have that.

We have that confidence that every founder probably needs to have to get over the doubters.

At the same time, we're also paranoid.

And we're thinking – and the nature of our business, nature of travel, being competitive, as you said.

And we started the business almost like a deal, tactical-based business.

So you're only as good as your next deal, your next whatever you're selling.

We're not a business selling a subscription business that you sort of lock in revenue.

So we've always had that paranoia that if we don't do something real – like a consultant or a lawyer or a banker,

unless you're only as good as your next client.

We were only as good as the next client or next deal.

So if we weren't getting that –

if we weren't getting that next deal, we could go from revenue of a million dollars to zero and be out of business.

So there was an unusual mix – well, maybe it's a usual mix of confidence and absolute paranoia.

That's a great way to describe it, isn't it?

The extreme end is that narcissistic overconfidence, but that healthy bit of paranoia drives a lot of people at the same time.

And so many points I want to pick up on the back of what you just said, Dan.

And one of them is whenever you start something, you get whacked over the head by people.

Are people close to you?

And they go, do you know the stats on how many people fail in small business?

And people have tried that before, and there's other competitors out there.

And that feels like the 98% of what comes your way.

And so what's your advice?

I love – for someone that's about to embark on that or maybe gone through the hardship times of it, how should they approach it?

Yeah, I often get asked this question.

It's a really good one to ask.

And people come to me, and maybe they ask – maybe the subtext is they want some money or not,

because it's one of the angel stuff that we've done in the past.

But they also – I usually say to people, I'm not investing now, or this isn't my sector.

But I'm happy to give you sort of thoughts on what I think of the business and what I really should do.

And there are plenty of businesses that might not be my kind of business, but I might be wrong.

So I might – you come to me and say, Adam, I've got this idea for a podcast business.

I'll say, I'm not sure this is a great business to ask, but go do it, because I don't know.

And if you think you can do it, and if the business model makes sense, give it a crack.

If it's a ridiculous business, then I'll be a little bit more sort of pointed.

But that rarely happens.

Sort through what they're going to do.

But ultimately, like – so there's a great question that Guy Raz asks every guest he has on How I Built This,

is how much of your success is due to luck or hard work or intelligence?

And it's such a great question, because there is no real answer for it.

But my view has been there's kind of three different gates.

You've got to be super lucky.

You've got to – if you're born a white male in a developed country, you've got huge advantages over everyone else.

So you've got to get that sort of luck.

And let's just say if you're not one of those things, you can't succeed, because heaps of people don't.

You've got an advantage.

And I had a clear advantage there alongside other people.

Born in a country like Australia, where there's opportunity and access to good schooling and education.

It's middle-class parents, which is perfect.

You don't want to be too rich, because then you sort of don't understand the value of money.

And if you're sort of right down the bottom, it's really hard.

People do it, but it's really hard.

So I had the absolute rails run through that.

So that was usually – that's like 99% luck.

And then, yeah, there's the degree of you've got to work hard and have some sort of understanding of customer and empathy and all that kind of stuff.

So, yeah, there's the skill, hard work element.

Work 10 years without a day off.

So there's clearly hard work, but there are lots of people who work two jobs, who are single mums, who work just as hard.

So, yeah, there's hard work and skill.

And then you've got to have another piece called the third gate, which is luck again, where not only do you have that initial luck and you've got your sort of hard work, but you've got to have the right timing.

And we entered sort of e-commerce 2010.

We had a perfect run timing-wise.

I think of the 10 richest people of all time, nine of them – this is in Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers book – nine of them were born in like 1830.

Because they all –

They all came of age at that industrial revolution in the U.S.

That was just luck that Rockefeller, Carnegie, all those guys, all white guys, were born at the same time.

So you need to have that second bit of luck where you've just got to get that wave.

And we had that wave alongside – same with the Gabby and Hesham Catch of the Day, same as Rosalind Kogan from Kogan.

Like we all –

Amazon, you know.

Yeah, and Jeff in 1995 when the internet grew at 14,000% the year after we started or something like that.

So, yeah, you've just got to be right place, right time on top of that other luck.

Yeah, and you make a really interesting point there.

Around the skill meeting, luck meeting, and it's nice to hear the honesty in that approach.

But you've also got to have credible resilience and solution focused to be able to – you know, obstacles have come your way.

And when you sit across the table with someone who sounds like, God, it's his dream run.

But were there moments where you thought, hey, we're in over our head here.

We might have bitten off a bit more than we could chew.

There's two absolute moments that come to mind there.

And I think where your point is really good there is probably the most important.

The most important characteristic in a founder – take out the luck stuff because you kind of need luck – is – and what a lot of venture capitalists look for is grit.

And you could call it resilience as well.

Same thing.

Two sides of the same coin.

And if you're really gritty – because you're never going to get a perfect run.

Every business has struggles.

Like Amazon almost went under multiple times and now it's one of two truly.

Like Apple almost – like all these great businesses almost did.

But you've got to have that sort of grit and resilience and willing to not take no for an answer.

So, I think we did have that.

And I think Jez and I, we had that sort of – we follow – I forget what the actual –

exact comment was from Phil Knight and Nike.

But he's got – one of his ten values was obey the law, don't follow the rule, break the rules or something like that.

So, we sort of have a similar concept.

Yeah, you absolutely don't want to break the law.

Laws are there for a reason.

But a rule that somebody randomly made, we don't – that isn't necessarily a law, well, that's there to be broken.

And every startup person has to break heaps of rules.

Otherwise, you never have any creative destruction.

You have the same people doing the same thing and never get shifted.

So, the same – if you look at the biggest businesses 50 years ago, almost none of them are the biggest.

Maybe just Exxon.

But you look at the top ten businesses in the States, they're all sort of 30 years old or less.

Microsoft's probably one of the older ones.

Yeah, and all been disrupted at some level.

You've mentioned your co-founder, Jeremy, a number of times already.

I suppose there's another bit of, you know, good fortune, good skill at getting a great partner.

Yeah.

How does a great partnership work from your perspective?

I can speak from our perspective in that we just have really complementary skills.

And Jez hasn't been super operational or really at all operational in the business for about seven or eight years.

But he will speak every day.

He will message every day.

He looks at every number I look at, equal shareholders.

But it just worked well because his skill isn't operational stuff.

He still is.

He's a great strategist and he understands stuff.

And he'll help out where we need his help.

And he'll always – he'll never sort of shirk that.

But we had different skills.

And that – especially in the early days when we had our early apartments businesses.

I mean, he was very operational there.

We came into office every day together and all that kind of stuff.

Wore suits, even though it was ridiculous.

I don't know why we did.

But we had these really complementary skill sets.

And also, we want the same thing.

We both have very similar court morals.

I think we both want to do the right thing by other people.

And we're court long-term greedy in a way.

We'll always sacrifice short-term wins for a long-term good result.

It's treating customers well.

It's treating team members well.

So, we're very aligned in – like a marriage.

Really aligned in terms of morals.

You kind of have to be.

Yeah.

Like you have a super successful marriage.

I think we've got a super successful partnership.

Me and my wife have similar morals in almost everything.

So, I think that's really important.

So, I think business partnership is very similar to a marriage.

Yeah.

Almost every way.

Yeah.

And I love your language.

It's a common one that I've heard asking that question around.

If you haven't got shared values in a business partnership, you're almost gone.

And then the complementary skill set is super important, isn't it?

Because you're not – you're adding to each other rather than crossing over with each other.

And you mentioned you've invested and, Jeremy, you guys have been angel investors before.

What are you looking for when you – is it the founder?

Is it just the sheer scale ability of the business?

What are the things you look at?

I'm not an amazing angel.

I'm not an angel investor by any chance.

I've probably, again, had a bit of luck, had a bit of bad – good luck and bad luck and probably evened out.

And it probably ends up being similar to what?

If I just chuck it in the next fund in the end.

I tend to look for a founder and grit and smart is probably what I'm looking for in a founder.

Obviously, the business is relevant, but someone's going to pivot probably multiple times anyway.

So, in our path, I've also found good founders and the business hasn't worked just because for whatever.

So, I'm not sure I can actually got a great pattern recognition there and I haven't invested for about four or five years.

For that reason?

Is that because you've got a heavy investment in what you're doing day to day?

Have you felt –

Yeah, a little bit.

A little bit.

I'm pretty heavily invested in the core business.

Also, because of the way sort of the startup market's been the last few years, this hasn't been as much exits.

So, I had a few but not – there's probably two or three big ones that just haven't exited because they've just been – because of the way the market is.

So, haven't been able to recycle that cash, which is probably the main reason why.

So, famous bet, wasn't it?

Warren Buffett, the greatest investor of all time, challenging the investment bankers to a 10-year bet.

I think the legendary.

The legendary story goes and I'll back my – an index fund.

So, for those listening, you're going to be much more articulate on this than me, but an index fund is basically one that's pegged to the top companies on the share market and they roll through.

So, it's computerized.

There's no skill in it at all in index fund versus these high-profile, highly paid investors and the index fund beats them easily.

I think his bet was against a bucket of hedge funds.

Yeah.

So, index versus bucket of hedge funds and it was from – I think it was from 2008 to 2015 or something like that.

And it smashed them.

Like, there was no contest.

But Buffett's been talking about index fund, even though Buffett's obviously an active fund manager, so he picks stocks.

He's been talking about index funds for like 30 years, well before they became fashionable.

And now, everybody talks about index.

So, you listen to the Equity Mates guys who run a great podcast, third or fourth best business podcast.

And they also chuck in index funds and a little bit of spraying and prying along the side.

But it's become so mainstream now because basically it's the fees, the active fund.

This is not an investment advice show, obviously, but it's kind of knowing what you're good at.

Yeah.

So, it sort of relates to that.

And ultimately, in terms of me, should I – we probably could have just chucked it in index fund 10 years ago and end up separatist paraphrase.

Yeah, interesting.

I mean, I love, you know, delving into some of the culture that you've built yourself.

If you turn up at Luxury Escape, free Ben and Jerry's ice cream daily.

I read daily breakfast team members get access to all expenses paid.

Luxury Escape's trips themselves are recognized for your great work environment.

Tell us about how you built that.

I think we just built a place – I never worked in that.

I worked at a law firm for five years, but only two years as a proper lawyer.

A few years while I was at uni.

And so, I don't have a – and I worked at like supermarkets and stuff.

Were you disheartened in a law firm?

Did you find that – because a lot of people are.

Yeah.

I probably wasn't there quite long enough to be fully disheartened.

It's a pretty terrible job.

Like, especially at a junior.

When you get senior, it's probably less bad.

But at a junior level, you're basically proofreading documents.

You're putting together files.

It's not really law.

It's more administrative assistant in a way.

And you're getting paid like 50 grand a year as I was back then.

Maybe it's like 70K.

So, it's not – partners get paid like millions of dollars a year,

but the junior people don't.

It's kind of a pyramid scheme, which is how it works and whatever.

I remember I wrote this big manifesto, Jerry Maguire style,

when I left for Hills.

And to their credit, like multiple partners spoke to me about it.

So, you left them a manifesto and gave it to the partners, did you?

That's a bold thing to do.

Well, it was gone.

So, like it was –

Yeah, free year.

Free year.

And look, picking up on your style, I suspect you wouldn't have held back.

I didn't hold back.

But then they had Greg.

So, to their credit, like some of the most senior partners

wanted to speak to me about it.

I don't know how much they actually put into –

I actually did it –

I used to, when I was at Whistler working at a cafe in like 1999 and skiing,

I worked for a guy who owned this sort of –

I worked at this cafe basically.

And I worked on it.

And as I was leaving, I sent him just like a three or four page,

like a really bad McKinsey version of that.

This is what I think you should do.

Like put a post-mix machine in, install a deep fryer,

a few things I thought we should do just to –

and he was super grateful for that.

And he put –

I think he did a good chunk of them, like probably most of them he did.

And he was really –

and I actually went back and worked later years for him again.

And he'd implemented some of your strategies.

Yeah, we did most of them.

But like he let me work without a visa after a few years.

That was actually –

worked out for the best.

So, what did you –

massive law firm for you.

So, they're now an international giant.

What did you –

what was your advice?

I think my –

the big piece I talked about that I don't think has ever been picked up was –

so, law firms have sort of different levels, like all these partnerships.

And the big worry was you get to sort of the middle level

where you're doing all this work,

but you're not getting paid like –

so, the partnership –

So, you haven't made partner this time.

Yeah.

So, you're just below that.

It's called senior associate.

Yeah.

I was saying you need to put –

I think you should put an equity or profit share for that level to lock them in.

I see Gold had handcuffed them in.

Yeah.

That was my main –

and there's a bunch of other stuff I talked about as well.

Yeah.

That was the main –

and it's actually –

I think I also talked about –

they used to have these partners lunches.

So, partners are going to have this fancy lunch.

I said,

why don't you give lunch to everybody,

not just the partners?

And we do that at Luxury Escapes now,

finally, and after it took me a little while to get there.

But there was stuff like that,

and I can probably dig it out.

I've got it.

I've still got it.

I still occasionally refer back to it.

But I was more impressed that, like,

several partners actually did engage with me on it,

especially because they're law firm partners.

And I still have a great relationship with people at Freelance.

I still go back there,

and most people have moved on in some respect now.

But I still have a great relationship with people who are still there

or who were there.

Well, a lot of the AFL coaches from the era that I played in

played in that era,

and they were born out of just riding this town going,

this is insane.

Like, do we need to personally abuse?

Like, people on a daily basis,

does yelling at people actually work?

And so it's created this sort of emotionally intelligent,

you know,

sit across from this judo from Craig McRae

and listen to his style of leadership compared to,

you know,

what we all sort of grew up in.

Is that probably, you know,

the daily breakfast,

free ice cream?

I mean,

obviously it just makes commercial sense for you.

It's a bit of the Google sort of,

you know,

the Google cult,

effectively.

You enter and you never leave.

Is that part of why you've gone that?

Because you could see an opportunity?

It's funny,

going back to the Craig McRae point you make,

one thing I did pick up from the law firm

that I've tried to change in my sort of day,

I remember you'd work,

you'd do these all night as a law firm.

So you'd literally work all night

and kick on the next one.

I did it a few times.

Or regularly you'd work till 10,

11 o'clock.

And you're not getting paid by the hour.

You're getting paid 50 grand a year here.

So it's like three bucks an hour

whatever you're getting here.

And I remember you'd work through the night,

give a partner something.

It may not be a great piece of work,

but you give them,

and then three days of it's in on the desk.

And that would drive me crazy

that someone wouldn't respect the person

who did that work.

It wasn't just me,

it was everyone.

So I always make it,

it doesn't matter who emails me

or messages me,

it could be someone who started a day ago

or someone who's worked for us 10 years.

I'll try and reply,

as soon as I get a zero inbox,

I'll try and reply to everybody ASAP.

And they'll know that no one,

and I don't want to make anybody,

someone's waiting for approvals for ads

or whatever they're waiting for me to do.

I never want to make someone,

sometimes you have no choice,

but 95% of the time,

I don't want to make anybody wait

because I just remember what it was like to wait.

And it was just so inefficient

and so unfair to the person

who's done the work

and who's getting paid a fraction

of the senior person to do that.

So I've always tried to act that way

and try and make sure all our managers that way,

not just me.

So I don't want managers to sit on stuff

and make someone more junior than wait.

And we know there's some horrific research

around the big accounting firms,

a huge troubles of mental health.

There's been horrible stories

of people literally killing themselves at work

in some of these practices in recent times.

You can't imagine the culture

you're describing.

You're out early enough

not to probably get stuck there

and you found your own path,

but could you see how that could

produce problems for people?

I think it absolutely depends on the person.

For me, I sort of,

not thrive,

but didn't mind that kind of stuff.

Like I go,

I only did it for a couple of years.

So yeah,

10 years later,

it probably would be pretty bad.

I only did it for a few years.

I ran the social club there.

I did heaps of non-legal stuff as well.

So for me,

I was completely fine.

But yeah,

I never was in that zone

that you talk about.

But investment banking,

it's even worse

because their hours were like

till 2, 3 a.m.

like every day.

So that's like incredibly bad.

Law firms and accounting firms

are just one rung below that.

But I've got friends

who are investment bankers

and they work 10 years,

no day off,

like midnight every night.

And this is the constant,

it can't be healthy,

not just mentally,

but physically as well.

You built this brilliant brand.

Luxury Escapes to me

is one of the most recognizable brands

in Australia now.

And you see it

and even if you haven't transacted

with you guys,

it is a good feeling about

what you guys do.

What's been the secret

to get that level of traction

so quickly, effectively?

It's kind of an overnight success

14 years in the making.

We sort of worked,

we started our first e-commerce business

in 2010.

Luxury Escapes,

we spun off 2013.

So it's sort of like 11 years Lux

and three years before that.

Apprenticeship in other brands,

we had deals.com and Kudo

and the like.

We still get a thrill.

I still get a thrill

when somebody,

you say,

that still is thrilling for us.

I don't ever really get recognized.

I was in the street

like you probably do every day.

But if the odd person

ever recognized me,

that's like massively thrilling.

And yeah,

I'm sure Jay's the same.

So we still consider ourselves

not successful.

Maybe one day

we will think differently,

but we still get a kick out of,

like,

I speak to somebody in the street

and I usually say

I work for a travel business.

They might ask which one.

I say Luxury Escapes.

And some people are quite impressed

and some people aren't.

But the people who are impressed

is like a big thrill for us

because we still think

we're just two average dudes

who don't really know

what they're doing.

So,

yeah,

for us it's been trial and error

for 13 years

of trying things.

If it works,

we go hard.

If it doesn't work,

we pull back.

Getting an incredible team

to sort of further

a lot of this stuff

and try to have that same ethos

of asymmetric bets.

So if we bet on something,

if it works,

it's 20x return.

If it doesn't work,

you've lost the 1x.

So how do we get that

sort of entrepreneurial vibe

through the business?

Which I think we still have.

Obviously it gets harder.

Like Jeff Bezos

talked about Amazon

being a day one business.

How do we stay day one?

We want to stay day one forever.

It's really hard.

Like Amazon,

I think,

now it's actually almost day two

and I talked about it

on our pod last week.

Jeff's gone two years ago.

Andy Jassy's running it now

who was Jeff's protege

for many years.

But I feel like Amazon's

getting very day two-y.

We don't want to become day two.

So eventually every business does.

But how do we keep

on the cutting edge

of what customers want?

So we've got a really good

marketing team now

who are doing heaps of stuff

around social,

heaps of stuff around

influencer work,

heaps of stuff around

obviously SEM, SEO,

all that kind of stuff

that everybody does

but we've just got to

stay ahead of it.

But you're good at it.

I've even done some homework

for this conversation.

Search engine,

optimization you just mentioned

but you put even the letter T

in for travel

and you guys pop up

at the top of the screen.

I mean that sort of stuff

obviously you put time.

How do you get good

at that for instance?

Hire people who know

a lot more than that

about you.

So we've got our CMO

who's got great background

in that.

He's building a team

who's doing SEO.

We had people before that

so our tech team's really good.

Our content team do it.

How heavy do you invest in that?

Is that a big expense

for you guys?

It's not huge.

Yeah.

When,

we're not a business

that naturally,

so SEO,

search engine optimization

leads itself really well

when you've got lots of content.

So marketplaces,

so your classic market,

so booking.com

who's a competitor of ours,

unbelievable SEO

because they've got

this huge marketplace

of 500,000 hotels

that have been live

for 20 years.

Our original business model

was really incredible value

tactical deals

on amazing hotels

but we only have that deal

available for two weeks maybe.

That doesn't lend itself

very well to SEO.

We built a marketplace

four years ago

which means we've got

a lot more product

on the site now.

It's like a mini booking.com

but with lots of stuff included

and a much better

contact center

because booking,

you can never speak to somebody.

It's a great business by the way,

booking 135 billion US business

so there are many,

many multiples

of what we'll ever be but-

135 billion a year

booking.com.

Market value.

Market value.

They probably turn over

200 billion plus.

Yeah.

So like juggernaut.

Yeah.

So they've got incredible

SEO advantage

over everybody else.

Yeah.

So we're always going to struggle

in a way to compete against them

unless it's like a luxury term

which would be better

because of the name

and that kind of stuff.

So we're coming from

a bit way back there

but we've improved

in that area

but what we're probably better at

is that

because of what we do

because we effectively

are really good at storytelling,

we've got a TV show,

series seven,

maybe even series eight

is about to start now

on Foxtel on 10

later in the year

working with some great people

who go around the world

and we produce the show,

we create the show

in partnership with Foxtel now.

We've had a podcast,

Electric House podcast,

we're on multiple

different radio stations

with sort of shows essentially

so we do a bit of what

I can call a mini Red Bull

in a way.

Red Bull, the masters

will never be as good as them

but the way they mix

commerce and content

has been an inspiration for us

so we try and do a bit of that stuff

which we can,

Booking.com can never do that.

Booking.com can never have a TV show.

We're in a unique position

because of what we do

to be able to tell incredible stories.

And you're playing a space

where there are great stories.

We all,

if a travel show's on,

I can't help it

so I'm not a great watcher

of mainstream TV

but jeez,

I'd love to have gone there

and you know,

if you're telling those stories

the way that you guys do,

you can see how powerful it is.

Going back to the brand,

I think there was a time

where Qantas had a look

at maybe going to buy you guys out.

Yeah, look at the Qantas brand now

and I just,

there's a disdain for Qantas

that it's almost hard to understand

in such a short space of time.

Everyone's had a terrible experience

with Qantas.

You mentioned the name

and you can see,

you know,

you've probably not ever been

on a call centre conversation

with someone from Qantas

given what you do

but you have, yeah.

I mean,

you want to have a rough day

to go and do that.

I mean,

it's not a given, is it?

I mean, you can drop,

you know,

they were one of the most

prestigious brands in Australia

and now they're,

in my mind,

one of the most loathed brands.

So,

what do you make of that?

Yeah,

that could be a whole episode

on Qantas, I think

but we are constantly petrified

of damaging the brand.

We overinvest in customer service

because we want to make sure

our customers treat it really well.

So,

we've got a 24-7,

365-day-a-year call centre

which almost,

forget travel,

almost no one in the world

has that,

let alone travel,

like booking,

you can't speak to some expert,

you can't speak to someone,

you can't actually

don't have any call centre.

So,

having a call centre is unusual.

Having a 365-24-7

is like super unusual.

If something goes wrong

on a luxury escapes holiday,

I can ring

and someone's going to answer.

The opposite of what you get.

Yeah,

or call you back in half an hour

or something like that

if it's a really busy time.

And we actually want people,

if you go away,

you buy a luxury escape

and you go to Bali

and something's not quite right

and we don't own the hotel

so we don't control

the end-to-end experience.

So,

5-10% of the time

something goes not perfect

and that could be just,

most customers are really good,

they'll just roll with it.

Some customers maybe not as good

which is fine,

everybody's different.

And sometimes,

the hotel's complete,

sometimes it's misunderstood,

whatever it is,

we want to be able to,

we can contact the hotel

pretty quickly and fix it.

It's much easier for us to fix it

while day one

when you get to Kavinsky, Bali.

They probably wouldn't do

anything wrong

but we call the GM and say,

Darth has got a problem,

can you help him?

And they'll give you,

they'll fix up and whatever

and help you.

If we don't know until

someone gets back,

much harder.

So,

we want someone to contact us

while they're away,

not after they get back

because once they get back,

the hotel's got the money,

they don't want to hear about it,

we've paid the hotel

so we're sort of

hamstrung.

We don't want to lose a customer

but we can't give you

a five grand refund

when we've paid the hotel

the five grand.

So,

we're in a really

invidious position.

If you can tell us straight away,

we'll almost always fix it.

Yeah,

yeah,

jump on the phone

and which is what you want.

Someone to listen to you,

hear your problems,

see if they can solve it.

99% of people

are reasonable

in that space.

Adam,

we're fascinated by,

yours is an incredible story for me,

create something in this space

as successful as it is

and just the patterns

of what great leadership

looks like

and I'll come to that.

I want to ask you

one final question.

I meant to ask you

about the Contrarians podcast

which I love listening to

and it's,

a lot of your language,

to be honest with you,

it goes over my head.

You know,

it's rapid fire

but it's brilliant

and it's entertaining.

There's a natural chemistry

between you

and your co-host Adir

but you throw some haymakers

at two of you.

You're not prepared

which I enjoy.

In a business community

where you guys are operating in,

do you ever have that sense,

you know,

I know the footy industry,

if you go hard,

you're going to bump into someone

pretty,

you know,

pretty,

you know,

readily.

Has that ever been

a cause for concern?

It's pretty topical.

I'm super flattered

that you listen

as someone who's got

huge respect for you

with everything you've done

from not just footy

but in the business world

and obviously in the media world

so it's hugely flattering

that you would even listen

but yeah,

I think part of the show

is you want to be natural

with each other

and disagree with each other.

I've been pretty outspoken on,

I won't name the business.

I've been threatened

to be sued multiple times.

That gets...

For those that haven't listened,

sorry to just jump in.

You know,

you guys will short a business

or, you know,

take a position

and say this business

is absolutely overvalued

or,

and doing a,

you know,

putting your reputation

and then explaining

very detailed why

and it's not a personal attack

on founders

or it's just saying

this is how we see the market

but I know how the world works.

People think personally.

Yeah.

And it's happened?

We,

I've written business articles

for sort of 15 years

so while we're running

the apartments business

I've written for

everything from Crikey

to The Age

to AFR,

whatever.

So I've written heaps of stuff.

I've wrote a book in 2010.

I've written a book in 2010

talking about corporate collapses

so that was a pretty

like harsh book.

No one's fully threatened.

Like I'm,

usually someone says

take the article down

I won't see it

and you just take it down

or sometimes you make mistakes

and I'm,

I don't,

last thing I want to do

is make a mistake

about someone that's,

especially that's critical.

I'll always fix it up

straight away.

If you say,

Adam,

I didn't have 25 kicks that day.

I had 30.

Fix it up.

Of course I'll fix it up.

Like it's,

you don't want something

that's wrong on it

but you also be able

to delineate between

when someone's trying

to take the piss

and get you to say

something that's not true

and I actually stopped

speaking to companies.

I used to write about

ABC Learning Centres years ago.

This is before it collapsed

and I was pretty critical

of it before it collapsed

and I was short

of it before it collapsed

and you speak to the PR people

and they're always nice guys.

They're usually guys.

They're always nice

and they convince you

of stuff that you know

is not true

but you get convinced

so I actually try not to speak

to the companies I talk about

because you get very easily

influenced.

Someone comes and says,

Adam,

here's why you're wrong.

ABC,

here's the evidence.

Then we'll fix it

but I try not to practically

go out to speak to people

because I'm not a journalist.

It's not my job

to check with the company.

They're welcome

to contact me after

but yeah,

you definitely,

I've had some angry emails

but it's rare.

You said it's topical

at the moment.

Has there been one close call?

Yeah,

in recent time

I've been pretty harsh

on a couple of different businesses

and Adir is a public company guy.

He's chairman

of a well-known public company.

He's probably more nice

about people than I am

so I run a private company

so he's always

a bit my peacemaker.

I'm a bit more probably

the aggressor.

Not always,

sometimes we switch roles

but that's usually the role

so he's trying to,

and generally he's usually right.

So he'd say,

Adam,

you don't really need

to go that far.

Let's tone it down a bit

and I'll try and tone it down

where he says it

because he's a very smart guy

and we just try

and get that nice balance.

Fascinated by,

well,

we see these patterns

around what great leadership

looks like in different settings

from someone who's

got an incredible sense

of the commercial world

like you do

or someone from the arts

or sport.

And we think self-leadership

and I think this applies to you

is hard to lead anyone else

without an idea

of your own sense

of self-leadership.

What do you make of that?

Yeah,

I think,

I find it really hard

to describe my leadership

but what I've always tried to do

is lead by example

and I can't do everything

in the business

but I've done most

of the jobs or something.

So I've written deals,

I've done customer service

for five years,

I've sort of done finance,

obviously I was a lawyer.

So I've done,

I do a lot of sales

where I can.

Yeah,

the technical roles

probably haven't done less

because I've never done

anything.

I've never been an engineer

or coder.

So you'll jump in

and sell a holiday

like you've done that

in the past?

Yeah,

I'll do the radio,

like we do radio stuff

where I'll do that stuff

along with some other guys.

So I've done some sales

and if I have to,

I'll get on the customer service issue

which is a really big customer.

I'll certainly email customers

if I need to

and if I really need to,

I'll speak to them.

So I don't want to expect

anybody to do

what I won't do

and that's in terms of work hours,

in terms of,

nothing I hate more

than the fat cat part

of being paid two million bucks

a year leaving at four o'clock

to pay for a meal

to pay golf

and the poor person

earning 60 grand a year

having to stay and do all the work.

I'll find that

just really hard to stomach.

So as we get more,

as the business gets bigger

and there's more people

who work there,

I don't think my job should,

like yeah,

your job changes

in terms of I'm not handling,

I'm not doing content anymore,

I'm not doing customer service

like I used to every single day

but I don't think

you should not do it

so it becomes a balance

and ultimately,

the beauty of a founder

versus,

there's lots of amazing

hired CEOs

and hired CEOs

are great at resource allocation

it's a really important job

of a CEO

they're also great

at managing and building teams

if you can't do that

you can't really ever

lead a big team

and you have hundreds

of people who can do that.

The beauty of what a founder

can bring

and almost every founder

brings is

understanding the product

and by product

I mean product management

which is what

is sort of a development

technical term

but the very first product

we built

means there's product management

essentially

we product managed

for the first five or six years

till we hired product managers

to do it

and we got an amazing team

of product managers

and product managers

are the people

who sit between

commercial

and tech

so they've got a bit

of a tech background

but also really commercial people.

So in your world

they're doing the deal

with the Hilton in Bali

or is that?

That's a different

kind of product manager

that's very true as well

I'm talking about

so we're building

a flights portal

on the website

they're the liaison

between our flights

commercial person

who's doing with the airlines

and our coders

so the product manager

almost manages

the technical product

on the site

so that's sort of what

like Steve Jobs

is classic that

and the guys

who run

so Mel and Cliff

from Canva

they're product people

they're both super hands

on the products

still

I'm not sure

if Mike and Scott

still are at Atlassian

they probably

absolutely would have

been in the early days

so their business

was born out of

their passion

interest in you know

Canva

incredible story

but they wanted

to change

you know

the way

the graphic

design was

yeah

photo book

business

and they design

and they still

like Mel still

is the main product

person there

and Cliff is

kind of the main

product person

with it

so

and most products

that we build

I'm working with

my CPO

really closely

and I'm checking it

and most founders

tend to do that

because

as a founder

you probably

have that

customer empathy

bit more than

a hired gun CEO

like hired gun CEO

can have it as well

such as Nadella

at Microsoft

is an unbelievable

one of the best CEOs

ever

and he wasn't

he was a product

person ironically

but he wasn't

a founder

Gates was obviously

the founder

so the beauty

of a founder CEO

is you get that

product understanding

as well

and you probably

get that salesiness

as well

because every founder

has got to be

the head salesperson

as well

yeah

closer to home story

at a very

small level

but a great friend

of mine

I've been involved

in this business

for many years

learned to swim

business

it's been around

for 50 years

called Paul Sadler

Swim Land

I went to Paul Sadler

did you grow up

swimming in Paul

Bay Street

so many kids

unbelievable

and speaking to

his son Ben

who's second

generation

they get into

are we getting

enough kicking

in the water

in a prep class

so founders

get the detail

don't they

and you're right

that others can't

because they know

the history

and they've been

there

funny you mentioned

I didn't know

you were involved

which is

my kids

learn at MSAC

and it's not

a patch on

like

MSAC's

horrific

it's a public

government

funded thing

or whatever

it's terrible

but Paul

had the

colour certificates

which is a great

goal setting

thing

that business

was incredible

he had one

at the time

and I went to

that one

and now it's

apartments

it'll be tough

to hear that

so many kids

grew up

learning those

lessons

all our kids

went through

the same thing

smart about

incentivising

to get to

the next level

it's the one

renewable business

isn't it

we're all

in a water

locked

country

we need

to teach

our kids

to swim

with founders

and leaders

like you

Adam

really conscious

about impacting

people positively

every day

and they're

really thoughtful

about that

how have you

gone about

impacting people

in a positive

way

I think

that's what

ultimate leadership

is about

is you're

working with

people

every day

people don't

like you

and like

what you're

doing

and you're

not creating

a better

workplace

or a better

life for them

then you're

not really

a great leader

in any respect

you're kind of

just forcing

people to work

because you're

paying them

ultimately

we want

and retention

is a really

important metric

for us

and probably

every business

we want people

to love to

come to work

or really

like to come

to work

and having a

friend at

work is one

really big

input in that

but ultimately

if we're not

if you think

about sort of

stakeholders

in our business

we want to make sure

our customers are happy

obviously we've got to

think of shareholders

as well

I don't own

all the business

me and Jess

aren't the only

shareholders in this

business

we've got to

think of our

shareholders as well

but our

teams

are our most

important

stakeholders

our IP comes

in and out

of that classic

investment banker

line

our IP goes

up and down

the elevator

every day

so we want to

make sure our

team's really

loving coming

to work with us

or at the very

least really

liking coming

to work with us

and if we don't

improve our life

then what are we

doing?

And the next

dimension I want to

talk to you about

is the vision

for Luxury Escapes

as you said

started as a

flash sale

business

and doing

great deals

looking after

people in

those windows

of time

and now you've

built this

marketplace

that listening

to you

guys

it's got the

potential to be

a webjet element

to it

insurance element

to it

so it's a

massive

massive

vision really

and again

a highly

competitive

market

how do you

go about

sharing

that vision

with your

team

so that they

get it

the way you

do?

It's actually

a really

hard thing

to do

it's

especially

the whole

team

because you

want to

get as

much

buy-in

as possible

from everyone

but there's

a lot of

say we're

building a

wholesale

business

recently

which means

we sell

to travel

agents

around

Australia

so we

started

the

business

travel

agents

actually

often

hated

us

because

we

kind

of

competed

with

them

but they

kind

of

wanted

to sell

what we

had

but we

just

didn't

sell

to them

so now

we

sell

to travel

agents

and we

will

have

almost

like

30%

of

travel

agents

selling

luxury

escapes

hopefully

in the

next

six

months

so we've

gone from

travel

agents

hating

us

to being

in

partnership

with

travel

agents

and being

able to

pay

them

for

selling

our

stuff

so that's

a really

fun

product

to sell

but it's

not really

relevant to

call it

our

contact

center

because it's

kind of

tangential

so it is

a bit of

a balancing

act

how do

we

tell

everybody

what we're

doing

and what

we plan

on doing

without

disengaging

them

because it

doesn't

actually

directly

involve

that is

a challenge

and you

can only

have so

many

pillars

of growth

in a

business

at one

time

and not

everybody's

working on

those growth

pillars

because it

can be

a lot

of business

as usual

stuff

do our

best

to try

and engage

everyone

in the

business

as equals

in many

ways

you are

a contrarian

isn't it

everyone

wants the

online

business

and to

take away

from the

travel agent

onto online

and now

you go and

open a store

at Chadston

why?

we had a few

pop-up stores

over the

journey

and I

actually

love

and this

is

screw

Turner

who runs

flighties

who

obviously

has 300

stores

and they

still do

incredibly

well

from their

stores

people think

flighties

is dead

and travel

agents

are dead

flight

center

the

long-term

CEO

is still

the CEO

of that

it's a

huge

business

travel agents

are doing

really

which is

amazing

to see

they got

smashed

during

COVID

for

reasons

that we

know

and poor

travel

agents

if you're

a home-based

travel agent

you were

stuffed

during

COVID

we could

at least

sell

online

to

Australians

we had

revenue

coming

in

but

these

poor

agents

had

zero

revenue

and

were

spending

all day

refunding

people

and

again

the

mental

health

issues

and

the

depression

it was

just

unbelievable

how bad

they had

they weren't

getting

handouts

like

Qantas

and

Virgin

were

they

got

virtually

nothing

so

thankfully

the

people

who

survived

the

agents

who

survived

were

actually

doing

really

well

which

is

amazing

to see

so

technically

we

compete

with

them

but

we

want

to

see

the

sector

going

really

well

in

terms

of

chatty

we

think

that

so

there

are

people

who

love

buying

online

people

who

love

calling

it's

a bit

correlation

correlation

because

you

probably

want

to

speak

someone

because

you're

buying

a

more

complex

trip

so

if

you're

buying

a

Bali

holiday

we

sell

more

Bali

than

anyone

in

Australia

because

it's

a

really

easy

thing

to

buy

you

go

buy

a

Sofitel

or

Kapinski

or

Hyatt

whatever

and

you

bang

and

you

book

your

flight

through

us

or

Jetstar

or

whatever

and

it's

easy

if

you're

you

can

speak

for an

hour

to a

consultant

you

can

look

on the

big

screen

while

we

do

it

it's

a

beautiful

environment

it's

probably

the

world's

nicest

it's

like

an

Apple

store

for

travel

and

you

can

start

from

then

and

you

can

really

get

into

it

from

then

and

have

some

expert

advisors

build

an

unbelievable

trip

for

you

you're

not

paying

for

anything

this

is

all

sort

of

free

essentially

so

it's

that

so

we

can

sell

lots

of

product

and

we've

got

these

unbelievable

screens

out

the

front

which

is

incredible

landscapes

we

have

100,000

people

walk

past

our

store

every

day

there

are

still

people

who

don't

trust

us

because

we're

an

online

business

once

you've

walked

into

the

store

you

go

actually

these

luxury

sales

guys

are

probably

pretty

legit

like

this

is

a

business

but

nobody

knows

that

so

it

definitely

helps

for

trust

and

credibility

as

well

fascinating

curiosities

are where

we

hear all

the time

and people

we see

like you

are just

curious

and they

use that

curiosity

to just

constantly

want to

learn

and grow

does

that

resonate

with

you

yeah

absolutely

I think

both

you

and I

are

always

very

contrarian

so

I left

a bank

when

everybody

was doing

corporate

2004

wasn't

cool

to be

a founder

now

it's

kind

of

cool

you've

got

Cliff

and

the

new

world

it's

not

that

long

ago

Amazon

wasn't

thought

of

highly

Apple

was a

disaster

so

it's

very

different

now

now

everybody

wants

to be

a founder

which is

amazing

I love

it

back

then

we were

considered

like

complete

outliers

doing

that

so

we've

always

we own

families

so

Sain

what are

you doing

was it

my dad

was always

my dad

was a

builder

so

naturally

entrepreneurial

really

supportive

mum

was

semi

supportive

but

she

had

a

lawyer

son

like

kind

of

started

doing

backpacker

apartments

like

and

she's

super

supportive

for a

long

time

since

but

probably

a little

bit

more

skeptical

which is

fine

but

we were

still

living at

home

then

it was

the

perfect

time

it was

a

classic

two

eight

or

perfect

time

I

could

have

always

gone

back

three

months

later

I

said

guys

not

come

back

we

took

a

risk

but

not

we

had

no

kids

we

had

no

girlfriends

or

whatever

we

didn't

have

wives

and

kids

at

the

time

no

mortgage

no

and

nothing

like

that

so

if

you

ever

got

funny

enough

like

most

yeah

I

think

the

average

unicorn

founder

is

mid

thirties

to

unfortunately

two

males

you

can

say

unfortunately

there

relatively

young

to

start

a

business

at

twenty

four

when

we

did

but

it's

much

easier

then

because

you

just

don't

have

I

was

speaking

to a

friend

yesterday

and

she

was

saying

I

would

love

to

start

a

business

but

she's

on a

huge

salary

like

hundred

hundred

thousand

dollar

salary

kids

at

private

schools

mortgage

like

really

hard

to

that's

huge

opportunity

cost

yeah

communicating

with

clarity

you've

as a

journalist

to

overlay

that

and

you

host

and

you

get

your

message

across

really

well

have

you

been

thoughtful

about

your

communication

probably

not

enough

I've

never

really

had

media

training

it's

a bit

of a

10,000

hour

thing

like

he's

doing

enough

of

it

he

could

probably

get

a

bit