A Lifetime Dedicated To Coaching With George Karl

I really hope you enjoy this conversation on the Empowering Leaders podcast with NBA

Hall of Fame coach George Carl, as much as I did recording it. He shares his lifetime of wisdom

in what I found to be an incredibly open and honest way. He talked about how coaching is

the easy part, but the hardest thing is the connecting of your players and managing of

egos. He was completely open and vulnerable about wishing he'd been a better leader,

that he'd been more empathetic, particularly understanding the challenges that face the many

black athletes in his care. He also talked openly about being worried for the first time in his life

about the state and the divide that's happening in America, that he felt Donald Trump had brainwashed

half of the US into believing that dishonesty is okay. It's an incredibly open and honest chat

with one of the great coaches in American sporting life, and I'm sure you're going to enjoy

and learn from coach Carl as much as I did in recording it.

So incredibly grateful that George Carl is part of our Elita Connect program.

Love you to have a look at it, www.elitacollective.com. Coach Carl connects on a monthly

basis with Mikel Arteta from Arsenal, Matt Lefevre from the Green Bay Packers, Eddie Jones from

Australian Rugby, Mike Dunlap, and we are really passionate about what it looks like to bring great

people from around the globe together. You don't have to be an NBA Hall of Fame coach to be part

of Elita Connect. We would love to collaborate with you, so book a discovery call, head to

elitacollective.com.

Find out about why great leaders like that are taking the time to learn, to share, and to

collaborate together. Huge thanks, as always, to Jason Nicholas's team at Temper Australia,

New Zealand. A mattress like no other. We know great leaders like George Carl understand the

value of getting a great night's sleep, and sleeping on the world's best mattress is an

investment you will not regret. George Carl was drafted as a fourth-round pick to the San Antonio

Spurs in 1973 from the University of North Carolina.

10 years later, at just 33 years of age, George Carl was appointed as the head coach

of the Cleveland Cavaliers, making him one of the youngest head coaches in NBA history.

In 2016, when Coach Carl had finished his last role as a head coach in the NBA,

he had been in charge for a remarkable 1,999 games, winning 1,175 times, the sixth all-time.

He has coached the U.S. national team, is a four-time NBA All-Star head coach, was a 2013

NBA coach of the year, and in 2022 was inducted into the NBA Hall of Fame for his outstanding

lifetime success and contribution. Coach Carl, you've dedicated your life to the game of basketball

at the highest level. Sitting here now, talking to you at 72 years of age, you must be incredibly

proud of what you've achieved. You know, I'm in a stage in my life that I'm happy and peaceful with

what I've done. There are times I wish I've done it differently and better, but I love the game of

basketball. I love the game of basketball. I love the game of basketball. I love the game of basketball.

Very much. I have no idea why that I fell in love. I was, as a little kid, I grew up being a

baseball player and loving baseball and always dreamt about being a baseball player. And then

my dad came to me and said he wanted me to go to college. And at that time, baseball scholarships

were not that many in America. So I pivoted over to basketball.

And somehow, some way, I, you know, I was good enough to get a scholarship to North Carolina. And

that's where I fell in love with the game, is being tutored and mentored and coached by Coach

Smith, Coach Steve Smith at University of North Carolina. He was a tremendous friend, a tremendous

teacher of the game, but also a teacher of life. And I've been blessed. I've been blessed to be

living in it. My life has been in a gym.

I still get excited to go into a gym where there's going to be a game or a practice or

talk to coaches. It's a blessing to have a life where you can live your passion.

And Coach Carl, I didn't realize there was a baseball passion in your background. And

there's a similarity to the great Michael Jordan. I want to ask you about Michael Jordan in a few

moments time, who grew up with a love of baseball. And his dad wanted him to be a baseball player.

And we know that he took that time off in between that.

It's a tragedy of losing his father and went and played professional baseball. But I heard you say

at the start, you do some things differently. Is there something that jumps out when you reflect

on an incredible lifetime in basketball? What would you change?

You know, something that's come to my attention is I wish I had more insight on how to connect

and lead people with the game of basketball. Every, you know, in the NBA, the game gets

different.

So I started coaching in the 70s and got my head job in the 80s. And I coached all the way

in almost to the 20s, 2020. I think how you coached in the 80s is totally different than

how you coach today. And the generation of how the people change, how management change,

the money has changed. So the society of America has changed. And I wish I would have been,

I wish I would have been better at pivoting and learning and maybe being a better leader of

people. And the one thing that comes to mind is America right now is, I think, having a little

trouble with race. And I wish, and the vast majority of people I coached were black. And I

wish I was more aware of what they had to go through to get where they were. I wish I would

have been better communicator.

And maybe more empathetic towards the black man to help them in their path to maybe be coaches

and leaders and mentors of people. Because right now, you know, it's the first time in my lifetime

that I've actually worried a little bit about America. I've always liked being the leader of

freedom, the leader of democracy. I've always been,

I've always been proud of being an American. But the last 10 years in America has been

distressful in a lot of ways. And in that time, I've looked back at myself and said I could have

done things, I could have done some things better. Yeah, Coach Carl, it's an amazing reflection for

you to have that at your age and the sense of self-reflection to do that. I'm sitting here

talking to an NBA Hall of Fame coach with remarkable history of success. And I love that,

you know, curiosity.

I love that curiosity to what you could do better. And we have crossed over in a passion

we call Alita Connect, where you're connecting with some outstanding current coaches around

the globe. Mikel Arteta from Arsenal is doing an incredible job. Matt LeFleur from the Green Bay

Packers is in your Alita Connect group. Eddie Jones, who's a remarkable coach of Australian

rugby. Mike Dunlap's doing a fantastic job, but most recently in Milwaukee Bucks. Have you found,

I know they love tapping into your history and knowledge and passion. Have you found that

sitting there talking to the current coaches that, you know, even at 72, you're learning in

a different way about how they're approaching it now?

Well, I think the one thing I, I love the group, by the way. The group is the wisdom coming from

different sports like, like soccer and rugby and football. But there's really a connection

amongst all of us on how to try to inspire and get the best out of your players and how you build

a team and connection. But, you know, for me, I think what you, I think every year in coaching

basketball is different. What, what happened the year before, you can reflect on it, you can

celebrate it, but you cannot rely that it's going to be that way the next year. So being able to

adapt, being able to change, being able to be versatile in your thoughts.

You know, there comes in a lot of packages. Head coaches are strategy wise and coaching the game

is in a lot of ways, the easiest part of the game. The hardest part of the game is connecting

and being the leader of a group of men or women and put them on a compassionate ride and journey,

a marathon,

of basketball to win a trophy. And it's, it's a joy to be a part of that. It's, it's, it's a privilege

to be a leader of that, but it also comes with a lot of scars and psychological losses. And win

loses. I don't miss the win lose of the game of basketball. I miss the game of basketball a lot,

but I don't miss those nights where

you're just trying to figure out what the hell's going on and what, what you got to do the next day.

And that is the, the beautiful art, as you said, the technical stuff you can do probably with your

eyes closed and you know how you want the game to be played, but it's that melting pot of

personalities, isn't it? As you said, uh, you know, coaching, um, you know, black American

athletes have come from a completely different world than you and, and in sport around the globe,

isn't it? We just see here in Australia, we've got such diversity, multicultural world here.

Our beautiful indigenous athletes come from very different backgrounds to, uh, different parts of

the country. And so do you think, you know, would have been helpful, you know, having that sort of

sense of collaboration for you, you're, you're listening in and you're, you're chatting to

coaches who do find a way to do that connection in different ways, as you said, to really try and

get that empathy around your athletes. Is that been something that, uh, that Elite Connect has,

has brought to the table for you? I think connection and communication,

I've always felt communication is imperative to be, to be successful, but there's more than

that. Um, I mean, a dictator can communicate how to, how to be addicted. And there are times in a

season that you have to be a dictator, but there are also times in a season that you got to have

understanding to your decisions. And there's also times in the season that you must celebrate

where, where you're at and how you're doing it. Uh, and every day I would say for the last 15

years of my coaching career,

you know, every day, our, our, our, our morning coaching session was always based upon a meeting

of what we call ego management and attitude adjustment to get everybody in a positive

energy space. Because with winning and losing, sometimes there can be too much

positivity, which leads to arrogance. And in losing, you got to learn how to lift them up

and reward them and, and convince them that they are on the right path. And in the process of

winning a championship, you must be knocked down as much as you got to get up.

And coach Kyle, you had an incredible, consistently successful period. I look at your record,

you go to Cleveland, uh, in your first NBA job and immediately, uh, you take them to their first

playoff in six seasons, your second stint at the Golden State Warriors. They come from a losing

year to reaching, uh, the semifinal.

The first time that had happened in a, in a significant period, incredible success in Seattle

with the Supersonics, your record at Denver. I mean, what, what were the patterns that

enabled you to immediately have an impact and, and then have that consistent success

over such a long period of time? I'll be honest with you. I wish I would have gotten a team that

had a winning record one time. You know, most of the time I picked, I got a team that had a losing

record and they had to become winners. And then after you become winners, you got to become

champions and in the world of coaching we don't have a lot of patience with coaches i think the

one thing i love to do is tinker with the team and i've never felt that i've had one philosophy

on how to play the game of basketball i think you got to build your philosophy around

the the talent that you have on your team and so so when you come in with a team like

in seattle when i came to seattle it was a defensive minded team we were dominantly a

defensive team and then eight years later i went to milwaukee and i tried the same defensive teams

but they weren't good enough to do to what seattle did but they were a hell of an offensive team

and so i became an offensive coach and then in denver i was more of a balanced coach

and so i i think the one thing i did well is i

realized i know the talent of the players i had how to fit them together and mold them together

and motivate and inspire them in a way that they played as a team i mean north carolina basketball

is all about we and not a lot about me and i'm a wee guy i believe in wee basketball

and the one thing i love about basketball is i think it's the best team sport

to you

can feel the energy of when a team is connected as we're in soccer i'm sure it's a team sport

but i don't feel that energy or in football i don't feel that energy or in baseball i don't

feel that energy that might be because there's too many guys on the field but with basketball

with five guys out there and you know that team is connected you can feel that power you can feel

that confidence

you can feel that they trust each other and when you don't have those things

it's very difficult to beat teams that have those things the magic of sport and why we love it so

much isn't it that intangible as you said that chemistry and that connection and when it's there

you can see it and you're probably right isn't a sport that's got five players

on a court lends itself to the to being able to pick that up perhaps quicker than you know with

a dozen players i want to go back coach carl you said something before that i wanted to pick up on

you said for the first time in your life you're worried about america you're you're proud patriotic

american but it feels like a time where leadership is in a challenging space how would you articulate

that why are you concerned about where america's at now well i'm i'm just gonna tell the truth i

think donald trump his brainwashed a part of our society into believing that lying and

and not telling the truth is okay

uh it scares me that we have so many people now that are not honest about life

many many america has been very fortunate because they've always kind of had hope

they've had dreams uh and they've had goals and americans have been very driven by that hope

and the ability that you come people come to america because they have a dream that they

can be wealthy or they can make money

they can have more success than where they're at well america right now i think is divided

i don't understand why it's divided but i think it's stagnated our brilliance

our country has been very very much a leader of a lot of great stuff freedom education

international connection but now we're a little more divided and i don't i don't see the rest of

the world seeing us as a part of the world and i don't see the rest of the world as a part of the

strong and as a leader as much as we have been in the past generations you know i really believe

we've had times like this before i don't think this is the first time it's the first time i felt

it and i worry about it i worry about it mine i have an interracial family my my my daughter is

married to a black man i have two black grandchildren and i have four grandchildren

and i want them to feel the specialness of living in america like i did and coach carl it's always been

a trait of yours and you read through that you're not afraid you pause for a moment you said i'll

just tell the truth this is my feelings and i'm not afraid to do that and and it's you know look

at your memoir furious george 40 years of surviving nba's divas clueless gms and poor shot selection

you're not afraid are you to to express what you think and and we know how uh you know challenging

at times is that always been you is that just been how how you've been able to act yeah i got

fired twice by owners that told me i tell the truth too much and i go wow you know i got fired

at gold state and the owner said to me i remember reminds him of vince vince lombardi a great nfl

coach and i said if i remind you of vince lombardi why the hell you fire me he said vince lombardi

couldn't coach in the nba and so you know the honesty of it i i have no problem with being

honest i like relationships i like connection that that are more honest than spinning and hype and

um perception our world is now being controlled by the public relations

as much as it being controlled by communication and connection i said i was going to talk to you

about michael jordan in 1995 96 your team the the supersonics uh take to the nba finals and you

run into michael jordan's chicago bulls a lot of listeners to the empowering leaders podcast would

have seen the last dance documentary on netflix which was commissioned by michael jordan and

there's a there's a famous scene in that where he references that he felt like you snubbed him in a

restaurant during that nba final series can i get your thoughts what's your recollection of that and

then taking on the chicago bulls and michael jordan's Chicago Bulls

and michael jordan in that in that playoff series well you know the one time i got to the finals it

was against michael i had brought on to my staff for the playoffs a guy by the name of brendan malone

coach mike malone's father he was a coach that coached against michael in the nba playoffs before

and he always told he told us as a staff that michael likes to make up stories to motivate

himself

to get that by by by interacting and so i told my team before that series

because we had sam perkins we had a couple other guys who were very good friends with michael

and i said i don't want y'all to communicate with him so i ran into him in a restaurant

it was a he was about 100 feet away from me he said he walked by me i did not see that

and i did not go over there and say hello

because I had just told my team,

I don't want you to communicate with Michael Jordan.

And Michael, of course, said that I stopped him.

But Michael didn't also say that we held him under 40% field goal percentage.

We did a pretty damn good job on him that year,

even though he won the MVP.

I thought Sean Kemp was actually the best player on the court in that series.

But the team that wins gets the MVP.

I understand that.

I respect that.

But I've played golf with Michael 10 times since then,

and he's never brought it up to me.

So I just think it was a mechanism of him to get himself motivated,

to get himself energized for the playoffs.

You coach some extraordinary players, Hall of Fame players.

When you look at the great Michael Jordan,

was he that much better than even the great players?

And why is that so?

Michael Jordan is the greatest competitor I've ever played against.

He's amazing about it.

He has to win.

If he does not win, he feels he's a failure.

And then you put it with him,

maybe the perfect body type, in my mind, to play basketball.

He's big enough to cover big guys.

He's little enough to dominate on the perimeter.

And his basketball IQ is off the charts.

I actually think in today's game,

and I really think LeBron James is almost,

at times I think LeBron James is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan.

I don't think he's a better winner than Michael Jordan.

And don't get me wrong, LeBron's a hell of a competitor.

But he's a better player than Michael Jordan.

But he's not in the class of Michael Jordan.

And because of that, I think he is the GOAT, as everybody calls him.

But in the same sense,

I think there might be someone better than Michael Jordan someday.

And I don't know who that's trying to be.

But, you know, the best player in the NBA today is Nikola Jokic,

the guy that plays here in Denver.

He's amazing.

But he's amazing in a different way than Michael.

Because he's not a wow athlete.

He's not that guy to go, whoa, look at that.

He's probably as cerebral of a big guy

and a combination of a big man that can rebound and dominate around the basket

and also control the game with his passing at the offensive end of the court.

Now, we've had good big guys who were good passers before.

But never like Jokic.

And his leadership right now, everybody thinks Denver got lucky.

Denver didn't get lucky.

Denver might win two or three more.

And I'm sitting here talking to you in Denver today.

And I love the quote I read of yours around Nikola Jokic.

He said he's got a doctorate in basketball,

whilst everyone else out there is running around playing with a degree.

And it seems as though Jokic still polarizes people in America.

They don't.

They don't want to believe that he's as good as obviously you seem to.

I was amazed how when he got in the NBA Finals,

how so many people said, oh, I didn't know how good he was.

Oh, he's been that good now for about four or five years.

And he just hasn't had the luck to have a good team around him,

a good enough team around him to win.

But their team is very good.

Their management has finally put together,

a good roster.

They lost a couple of guys in the free agency,

but I think both guys are replaceable.

And the key to it all is Nikola Jokic will make it work.

Whatever you give him, he'll make it work.

And I love players that make other guys better.

And I've always thought Michael was that guy.

LeBron James was that guy.

Matthews Johnson was that guy.

Larry Bird was that guy.

And now I actually think Nikola Jokic is the best at doing that in the NBA.

Yeah, two-time MVP winner and now a championship winner

with the Denver Nuggets.

Hard to argue with that.

I've got to ask you, you said you played golf with Michael,

you know, 10 or more times since that final series.

What's that experience like?

Yeah, North Carolina guys got together every August

down in Pinehurst, North Carolina.

It was called the Doug Moe Invitational.

And we did that for almost 30 years.

And we just ended it last year.

It was the last time we did it.

And Michael would come and play in that.

And that's where I always played golf with him at.

And Michael, in the North Carolina fraternity,

was very much a North Carolina tardiole.

He didn't think he was better than anybody.

He was proud of North Carolina basketball.

He loved the Smiths.

He loved the Smiths and Roy Williams.

And in the end, he loved all of us.

And when he first started playing golf, he wasn't very good.

He was like me.

I'm not very good.

But when he first started playing, I could play with him.

About 10 years later, you don't want to play with him now.

I mean, he's made himself into a hell of a player.

I think his passion in life right now is playing golf.

And he's just as competitive.

And he's damn good on the golf course.

So it was fun to see that osmosis.

But I'm going to tell you, he's a hell of a competitor.

On the golf course, playing poker, playing ping pong, going on a bike ride.

Michael Jordan wants to win doing everything.

I'm told he's built his own course, Coach Carl.

And he's shaped the course in a way that is perfectly tailored to the way that he plays.

And he'll take on a professional golfer.

And they call it just almost impossible to win against him.

One, because he's so competitive.

But two, he's actually designed his own course to suit him.

As you said, that fanaticism to win is perhaps like we've never, ever seen before.

Coach Carl, you've had your own share of challenges along the way.

No journey without hurdles along the journey.

In 2005, you have surgery for prostate cancer.

You're the coach of the Denver Nuggets at that time.

You have to take some time off as a head coach.

And then you have neck and throat cancer appear in 2000.

And in 2010, how's it been dealing with that challenge and still, you know,

been able to coach at the highest level?

How have you found that chapter of your life?

Well, I'll be honest with you.

Cancer is a bitch to get.

And it's a sad moment in your life.

It's tough on your family.

It's tough on your kids.

It's tough on your friends.

But in the end, fortunately, I've gotten a couple cancers that are treatable and livable.

And it's taught me a lot.

And I think a lot of people that go through cancer learn, you know, that they're fortunate

and they learn from it.

And if they have one that they can survive, it usually makes them stronger, maybe tougher,

and in a lot of ways, better.

I'm a better person because of what I learned about my life.

What woke me up was cancer.

My balance in life.

My family.

Becoming more important.

Not being a workaholic to where I want to kill myself.

All those things I got more aware of after my cancers that I had,

especially the second one with the head and neck.

And now I have a raspy voice because of it.

But I can live with that.

I like talking, but I don't like to talk as much as maybe I did a long time ago.

And it also affected your son, Kobe, who's had some challenges with lymph node cancer.

He's following a similar path.

He was the successful coach in the G League, and I understand just been recently appointed

as the assistant coach of the Philadelphia 76ers.

We love that you've also introduced him into the Leader Connect world that we're passionate about.

He's collaborating with a group of other leaders around the globe.

You must be really proud of him.

You have two daughters as well.

But to follow in your own path.

That must be pretty special.

It's really, really special.

I mean, watching him coach and seeing him evolve, I hope my reputation doesn't hold him back.

Because I think he's a hell of a coach.

I know he wants to coach in the NBA, and I think he's going to get a chance to be on

the 76ers staff, cross our fingers.

But I think, you know what, as a parent, as a father,

you always worry about, are they listening?

Are they learning?

What are they thinking?

And there are a lot of years I thought Kobe was not listening.

But I'll be honest with you.

He's listening very, very well.

He's the student of the game.

But what I love about him, I think he's the student of life.

And he's a great father.

He's a better father than I was.

And in a lot of ways, I think he could be a better coach than I was.

He's a great communicator.

He's learned from, you know, Rick McHarris was big in his life.

Phil Jackson is very important in his life.

Dale Harris is very important in his life.

He has had a lot of mentors that I, a lot of mentors that I had, but even more than I had.

And I just think people are not being aware of a guy that loves coaching.

Phil Jackson is trying to be better at it every day.

And he's pretty good at it when he does it.

Yeah, brilliant to see that passing through the generations.

So one of our coaches, George, said to us, success leaves clues.

And we've seen these different dimensions of what great leadership looks like in different settings.

And I'm always inspired talking to you today or someone from a completely different background and picking up those clues.

And we want to ask you a handful of questions.

We want to ask you a handful of questions around what we see as these patterns around great leadership.

And starting with this, Coach Carl, sense of self-leadership, we feel like it's very hard to lead someone else unless you understand your own sense of self-leadership.

What do you think about when I ask you about self-leadership?

Well, you've got to be tough-minded and caring at the same time.

You know, whatever you coach and whatever philosophies you have, they're fundamentals.

And how you make them teachable.

Acceptable and committed to is the beginning of coaching.

We're teachers.

We are mentors.

We are psychologists.

But we are also friends.

I don't think the old school of dictator, angry man, angry woman, boot camp type of mentality is going to win anymore in coaching.

Our players today are smarter.

They're wiser.

They're better.

And they're more.

They know more stuff than we know when we started coaching, when we started playing.

The window of learning how to motivate, how to inspire, how to connect, how to get out of the way, how to allow the process of a team to come together.

I think the best wisdom I had is what I said at the beginning of the show.

I mean, I've always believed in communication.

But now it's more than communication.

It's connection.

It's not only connection with the one-on-one between coach and player, but the connection between what you are selling or what you are coaching to the team.

Do they accept your philosophies?

Do you accept your demands?

Do you accept your fundamental demands?

And also, do they accept your punishment?

How you push them.

How you push a button.

One of my favorite sayings is, a pat on the back and a kick in the ass is six inches apart.

And that is so true in the game of sport.

Some guys, they don't want to be kicked in the butt.

Other guys, that's all they want to be, is kicked in the butt.

Everybody likes a pat on the back.

But when they go hard at them, when to be demanding, and knowing when to push those buttons.

Over a six-month period.

Over a six-month period.

Over a six-month period.

That season is probably as important as anything.

Yeah, I love that.

Tough-minded and caring in the same sentences.

And it is a close relationship, isn't it, to get that right with different personalities and to be able to pull those levers at the right time.

We see people are really conscious about positively impacting others in their environment on a daily basis.

That they show up and have a sense that that is how they're going to go about their day.

How have you gone about having that positive impact, Coach Carl, on a daily basis?

The last 10 to 15 years of my life, I hired people on positive energy.

Positive energy.

I did not want negativity in my locker room.

I know as a head coach, I wear a black hat a lot of nights.

A lot of days, I'm wearing a black hat.

And the guys around me, I want them to be able to take my negativity, my correction, correcting them, and demanding correction.

And have guys around.

But that pick up players in a positive way.

Off the court, I'm a very positive person.

I believe, going back to America, I really believe we're going to figure it out.

Because that's what I wake up every morning.

That's the way I feel.

I wake up thinking, what good, what positive stuff, what energy can we bring to it?

My dad said it in a very simple way.

When you don't like being around somebody.

Don't be around them.

Because if you feel negative energy, it's very difficult to find a positive place.

And so, I always like to have fun in basketball.

I like practice to be fun.

But there are days it's not going to be fun.

You got to do your job.

You got to be a pro.

But positivity, I think, if I would say anything to anybody, from what I learned,

is hang on.

Hang around positivity.

It's a lot better teacher than negativity.

Yeah, I love the way you express that.

It's, you know, as you said, in the last 15 years, that was an exclusive part of what

you wanted around you.

And you hired people specifically for that.

And it's true, isn't it?

That one negative force in a team or an environment or workplace, you spend so much time having

to deal with that, isn't it?

As opposed to that natural positive energy that you get.

It's incredibly powerful.

You've had to create and share a vision for success.

And a lot of different environments across your working life as a professional coach

for such a long period of time.

How have you gone about creating a vision for success and sharing that amongst the team?

I think the one thing is our job is to get better every day.

I want my practice facility to be a place of growth in teaching.

And I think the thing players found out is when they came into our culture, they got

better.

And they like that.

And getting better, everybody likes to feel like they're better.

You know, what we do a lot is the individual talking and learning about what triggers a

player into their best space of learning.

So our energy is very much in the individual development of our players, mentally, physically

and emotionally.

And I think the first time a lot.

Of culture now in the NBA, in the NFL, somewhat in baseball, is caring about your players

off the court, what they are feeling, what they are doing.

And I don't think as a head coach, I have much say in that.

But I also monitor, I can monitor for them to give them to other people that might know

better than I on their mental health, their happiness, their state of health.

You know, we have a lot of addictions in our world that when a 19-year-old kid has $5

million, he has the freedom to be who he wants to be.

But at 19, he probably still needs a lot of guidance, a lot of holding hand.

And a lot of our players in the NBA go the wrong way.

And those are the guys that I want.

I hope in the world of basketball.

And sport, in general, is going to understand that mental health is a bigger part of our

game than we think it is.

Coach Kyle, curiosity is a word we hear a lot from people when I sit down and talk to

them.

And through their curiosity, they're constantly looking to get better and approach their learning

and development through curiosity.

Does that make sense to you as well?

Well, I think my favorite question ever since I've been out, when I go hang out with coaches

within five years.

Five minutes, I ask the question, where is the game going?

You know, the game now is going from sport to entertainment.

How is that going to impact coaching?

Because I still think the coach is very, very important.

A lot of managements now don't value coaching.

And I think those organizations are going to make mistakes down the line because I think

all organizations understand that in an NBA or an NFL season, the coach has the most influence

than anybody else on that group of people.

If it's a group of 15 or a group of 50, it does not matter.

That coach speaks to those people every day.

My upbringing is the culture of getting better, playing hard, and playing as a team.

That's all.

That's all North Carolina.

But in today's game, with money and the social networks that we have, the mental health is

becoming more and more prevalent in players' daily lives.

Coach Carl, I've heard you reference communication a lot through this chat.

And we see leaders are really conscious of communicating with clarity.

How have you gone about that?

Well, clarity is the most important word there.

I think.

There are a lot of coaches that know basketball better than I do.

There are a lot of times in my coaching career, I was somewhat of a complicated coach.

But a lot of times in my career, my philosophy was simple and basic.

I think Coach Smith told me when I got into coaching that 90% of coaches overcoach.

And I was one of those guys when I was a younger coach.

And as I got older, I was one of those guys.

And as I got older, I think I got more into letting the players tell me how to coach them

rather than me tell them how to be coached by me.

I think opening the game up to the creative minds of, you know, now in the NBA, we have

what they call positionless basketball.

Well, I played positionless basketball in 1992, you know, with Albany Patroons.

So my history is allow the game to tell you.

Let the game tell you what to do.

Don't dictate what you want to do.

Let the game tell you what to do.

And that's where your curiosity has got to be interesting.

The big man is dying in the NBA.

But the best player in the NBA is the big man.

Now, how does that work?

I mean, because five years ago, I was done with the big man.

But now, if you give me a Jokic, I got to figure out the big man again.

So the game always changes.

It always gives you like pick and roll 25 years ago.

Not many people ran pick and roll.

It was too much of an individual game.

But now everybody runs pick and roll.

So what's the game going to give us?

And that comes with coaches that have the courage to be curious, have a lot of curiosity,

but also the courage to take a chance on doing something that some,

that no one else is doing right now.

And I'm happy that I did that a little bit more than most.

And the number one pick this year is a 7'3 Frenchman who looks like he could revolutionize the game.

Would you take him?

Yep.

You got to take that guy.

Because, I mean, he's a monster.

But that doesn't mean he's going to win.

He's going to be a damn good player.

I promise you, he'll be a damn good player.

But winning an NBA championship is a hell of a difficult journey.

And will he win an NBA title?

I would not bet against him.

But I'm going to tell you, it's going to take time.

It's going to take some time.

It'll be a fascinating journey to watch that one.

How important has collaboration been for you, Coach Carl, along your coaching journey?

The more I coach, the more I wanted to collaborate with my coaching staff and my players.

And now you go,

Now you've got weight coaches.

Now you've got physiologists.

You've got analytics.

I'm not anti-anything.

But the thing is, every day you only have a certain amount of time.

So I think the big thing about coaching in the NBA is prioritizing who to talk to,

who to collaborate with, and what to prioritize for that day.

Because we all now have too much information.

And it's how you use that information.

It's not that you have it.

It's how you use it to get your team to be a better basketball team.

And we love sharing great leadership stories.

And to tap into some of your wisdom today has been fantastic.

I've enjoyed every moment of it.

And I love that you've been prepared to take the time.

And also, we're really appreciative that you are collaborating and learning with a group of coaches

in a world that we think is really valuable.

It'll bring different people across the globe together in a space we call A Leader Connect.

But I want to ask you, who's, Coach Cole, been the greatest leader in your life?

The greatest leader in my life has probably been Coach Dean Smith.

Coach, well, I had back surgery my freshman year in college.

And I was lost.

I mean, I thought my career could be over.

For some reason, Coach Smith took me under his wing a little.

I got a little more attention.

And I realized, I mean, my dad was a hell of a father.

And my father is second on that list.

But I was blessed.

The decision to go to North Carolina has given me a basketball fraternity that I'll always have.

But I also had a friendship with one of the best men and best basketball coaches of all time in Dean Smith.

Legend of North Carolina basketball, isn't he?

And you mentioned the...

The North Carolina fraternity, the golf days with Michael Jordan.

And it seems like Coach Dean Smith has had that impact, not only on you, but on many across the journey, isn't it?

It's a pretty special legacy, isn't it?

Well, there's not only me.

There's Roy Williams there.

There are many, many Carolina coaches.

Larry Brown and Doug Moe have had big influences on my life.

And always having that fraternity to go back to every summer.

It was such a blessing for me as a young coach to be...

Doug Moe was my big brother.

I mean, he would never let my ego get out of control.

He would always stand up to me and tell me,

as you think you're smart, I think you might be stupid.

And, you know, there's always those boundaries that you sometimes need in growing.

And my North Carolina boys took care of that almost every summer.

It's the beauty of team sport, isn't it?

I feel lucky that it's been my life as well, playing team sport here in Australia.

And you go back and you always get that, you know, that beautiful friendship.

But it comes with some pretty clear feedback, doesn't it?

From your old mates and your old alumni.

They don't miss you in a healthy way, isn't it?

It's a great gift to be able to have that in your life.

We often say feedback is a gift.

We're a bit obsessed with collaboration, Coach Carl, in the current world around leaders really seeing...

collaboration as a superpower.

Has there been, across the journey, have you thought,

God, if I could collaborate with one person in a team or someone you'd like to get,

is there a name that springs to mind?

Well, the guy I always ran to when I got in trouble,

men on basketball IQ, were Rick Majerus and Dale Harris.

And they were always open to my questions.

I enjoyed talking to coaching.

I like coaching coaches.

I don't like coaching, like, summer camps.

I don't like putting on big clinics.

I like having a round table of six or ten, maybe eleven, twelve guys.

And we exchange ideas.

And it's only by that exchange that something different will come to you.

And I did that every summer.

Tim Bergerich and I are thinking about...

doing it here in America two or three times every winter

to get together with a bunch of guys and talk the game.

Because the game is always changing.

And Coach Carl has said a few times, we love that you're doing that on an international scale

and influencing Australian rugby and soccer in the UK.

And, you know, your work with, you know, Coach Matt LeFleur and the Green Bay Packers.

To have that wisdom, you spent a lifetime gathering it.

I love that.

You're so open in sharing it.

I really appreciate you joining me today.

Thanks for your time.

My pleasure, Mikel, the coach at Arsenal is in America right now.

So I look forward to seeing his team play.

But that group, Matt's put together a great group.

And I hope we continue to do it as long as they all want to do it.

I'm sure that will be a lifetime ahead.

There's no shortage of joy and wisdom in that.

Thanks again.

And I enjoyed it.

Good morning, Australia.

I've never been to Australia, but I might be coming soon.

Well, we're going to make that happen, Coach Carl.

Let's put that on the list.

We need to get you down here for sure.

It's a welcoming place for you.

I think we'd love to catch up.

So make sure you give us a call when you come down.

OK, guys.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the Empowering Leaders podcast powered by temper, a mattress like no other.

And to make sure you don't miss an episode, click subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.