4 Communicating With Clarity

a listener production. Welcome to episode four of a special series of the Empowering Leaders

podcast, highlighting the dimensions of leadership we see in a new generation of purpose-driven

leaders and the incredible responses I've been getting from the diverse range of people we've

had the great pleasure of talking to this year. Sat down with some remarkable people on Empowering

Leaders, each with an incredible story to tell and unique insight into how they lead. So these

types of insights that align with a great passion of mine, Alita, the business co-founded with my

great friend Matt Waterwitz. It's a place where leaders like the ones you'll hear from today

come together to collaborate, to learn in bespoke, unique environments. If you're interested in

learning some more about it, please head to alitacollective.com. We love collaborating with

all sorts of leaders across industry, sport, social venture, the arts. You might be starting

a small business or simply just want to improve the way you impact others in your environment.

We would encourage you...

...to book a discovery call and check out our signature Alita Connect program.

Communicating with great clarity is such an important aspect of our lives.

Great leaders find ways to communicate with everyone in their environment,

shifting and changing their messages so every person in every context understands the mission

and the goal of the situation. Our first highlight is from a remarkable chat, one of the most popular

episodes this year, premiership coach and an old teammate and friend of mine, Luke Beveridge.

This time, we're going to talk about how to be a leader.

Just to mention, hit home for Bevo as you'll hear in this insight.

Setting the scene and providing context is absolutely critical for all of our people.

But I think it gets back to the learning mediums and to continue to think about how do you,

in a group setting, how many can actually process the spoken word? If you speak for 10 minutes,

what are they going to do? What are they going to do? What are they going to do? What are they going to do?

What are they going to take in? Most of us, I think, have got a real appetite for the visual

mediums, whether it's pictures or videos. And it's such an effective way to get your message across.

And the physical side of it, actually, whether you're walking through or demonstrating and

being physically active, which you can't always do in a normal workspace,

is really valuable in what we do, obviously, in a high skill game sense.

So as far as the communications go, exploring the best mediums, reminding people how they can do it

better. And that constant loop of feedback, especially with our coaches, is to, hey,

think about this, understand your audience. Because the one-on-one connection is a little

bit simpler. It's just when you've got a group, Cody,

we've got a group of coaches, we've got a group of coaches, we've got a group of coaches,

we've got a group of coaches, we've got a group of coaches, we've got a group of coaches,

we've got a group of coaches, we've got a group of coaches, we've got a group of coaches,

we've got a group of coaches, we've got a group of coaches, we've got a group of coaches,

is the most challenging. And I think I probably, as far as the spoken word goes,

I've always been somewhere between a mumbler and a reasonable orator. And you can get lazy.

And I think I've become more conscious about pronouncing my words a little bit better,

because I'm pretty laid back most of the time. And I think I've become more conscious about

And I think that can be construed as, you know, almost being a, it starts to connect you with your history and you become known as a skateboarder more than a coach.

So I've become a little bit more mindful of pronouncing my words and making sure that I get the message across in a fluent way.

I'm always, you know, trying to describe yourself, Bevo, as almost the impossible task.

And I don't know if you sense that as well.

But to me, you've always had this great emotion, great connection, great empathy for people.

And perhaps those stories that I shared before are evidence of that.

It always felt to me like you were thinking about how other people were going at any particular stage and a great love for people.

You know, I use that word love on purpose because not many people in our era would have felt that way.

But you also...

If you cross the line with you, Bevo, there's a line.

And you can be pretty direct when that line's crossed and maybe even a little bit brutal when that's the case.

Is that a fair way to describe it?

Yeah, maybe.

I think my default is to love and care for people first.

I give people chances if, you know, there are accidents or unintentional outcomes where people's best intentions were there.

But I must admit, I don't give people many chances when the early read is that they're not a good person or that they're selfish and they won't hesitate to do wrong by people around them.

I don't tolerate that.

And unfortunately, I think what happens is, you know, 99% of the time, you're a caring person who, you know, wants to help others whenever you can.

And on the odd occasion...

On the odd occasion where maybe there's some emotion and it is a bit edgy, that's sometimes what you're remembered for.

And I'm sensitive around that because it's still a part of me.

And in what I do now, I've got to be really careful that there's no controversy.

Yeah, it's a fascinating insight, Bevo.

I mean, to me, I think that's as, you know, greater part of you as any part.

The care and the love comes out.

But I love the fact that people around you know exactly.

Where they stand and always have done.

I think even from that really young age, you could, you know, knowing you at that time,

you could stand pretty clearly on where you're still with Luke Beveridge.

Is that something that you try and soften a bit when you get older?

Or it's just that that's your DNA and that's who you are?

I think, you know, I've matured like all of us, you know, and got to know myself a little bit better.

I'm fortunate that I've been lucky in life, you know, at different stages in my life.

I've worked hard.

And...

And...

And not just in my working life, but, you know, in my relationships with my family.

I've had stability.

I'm fortunate in many, many ways.

And I don't think I was...

I think I believe I was a later mature.

I had that...

My personality was probably a little bit volatile for too long.

And probably until, you know, into my early 30s.

I think that was when I really...

Really came around.

And coaching really helped me with that.

Because you're not only technically and tactically in control of something,

you're a manager and you've got to make sure that the human resource

and what you're trying to achieve with managing personalities and emotions is on point.

And that hastened, I think, my maturity at that point in time.

But it was a bit late.

You know, I wish I was like that in my early 20s.

And there were...

I definitely cared for you, Luke, and my teammates

and everyone that I've ever played with and been involved with in sport.

But I think, in totality, I didn't grow up enough, you know, in my 20s.

Western Bulldogs 2016 Premiership.

Coach Luke Beveridge there with a fantastic insight and reflection.

Well, our next guest is stepping slightly out of the sporting world

to one of the most creative...

...and passionate people I know.

It's the fantastic Russell Howcroft.

Now, when you talk about communicating with clarity,

there isn't a much better person to speak to

than the globally recognised advertising guru and guru-in-transfer co-host Russell Howcroft.

Ironic, then, that he was left a little stumped when I asked him about communication.

Well, you...

I was going to say scarcity, but that doesn't quite wash, does it?

Oh, my God.

Look, I...

Trying to stick to what I know, I think, has been what I've done mostly.

So I feel very comfortable talking about ideas and advertising.

And, you know, so the...

Initially, I'd be on the radio with Virginia Trioli and I'd talk about ads.

You know, and then Gruen, I'd talk about ads.

Mojo did a documentary that's about ads.

It's different what I'm doing now, for sure,

but maybe that's because I've just got a bit more comfortable with media.

So sticking to what I know, though, has been the...

That's been the core.

I think I've...

See, I wouldn't urge caution talking to the media.

And I think a lot of people, they're cautious when speaking to the media.

And I don't think that that's a good thing.

Americans aren't cautious when talking to the media.

They just go for it, right?

And they very much see the media as just part of their big democratic world

that is the States.

You know, everything's up for debate.

Everything's up for argument.

And everyone's discussion is fair and reasonable, you know, to a point.

Everyone's an open book.

And as a result, they all do really good media, don't they?

So I think it's hard.

I think it's hard for Australians.

I think we have a natural caution.

We don't want to show off, for one.

Yeah.

And for two, we're cautious about how we might get tripped up

or we might, you know, say the wrong thing and then not sleep at night.

You know, I think a lot of us are like,

I have been like that.

I still am a bit like that.

So I'm cautious and try to stick to my knitting,

but none of that makes any sense.

I wasn't like that.

I'm more like that now.

Right.

I think the sort of cancel culture part, I think, is a real thing.

And you can't actually say sorry.

You can't make a mistake.

You can't have slipped up because, you know,

the more you're in front of the microphone,

the odds are just going to say you're going to get something out there

that you didn't mean to.

But you haven't got that luxury anymore.

I mean, 15 years ago,

15 years ago, you could be looser, you know,

and I think it was healthier because, you know,

you want to hear people as close to their real self and not guarded.

I'm not sure where.

Yeah, I think that's true.

And there is an issue in that Google, let's just say Google,

but it's all digital, doesn't forget.

Yeah.

So, and I think that is really, that's not good for any of us.

You know, maybe it's not good for you or I because we're talking

and this is, you know, a lot of what we do is public.

But for people that are deeply private,

it's not good for them either because, you know,

you might Google that particularly private person

and discover seven years ago something happened that, you know,

wasn't good.

It may have been taken out of context as well and, you know,

an imbalanced version of what happened as well.

I don't like that because I think that's unfair on all of us

because all of us make mistakes.

Of course, we all do.

There's a lovely piece of legislation in Europe called

the right to be forgotten.

And you can actually, you've got to go through a very,

a very major process.

So, you can't be a naughty person and then say,

I want to be forgotten.

You've got to be a fine, understanding citizen

and then go through the process of being forgotten.

Getting your digital history cleansed, effectively.

Yeah.

And I'm going to go off the grid.

You can be officially off the grid, yeah,

which who knows that might happen, that might become more prevalent.

I do think there needs to be a rebalance with regard

to the big tech behemoth businesses and all of us individuals

because us individuals provide them with the data

that they make the money, right?

So, there isn't a balance at the moment.

I could talk more about what should happen there.

Should I?

Well, you know what I was thinking, Russell?

My mind was going back to Shane Warne again.

I was thinking why we love Warne so much is that he owned all of his history

and we loved him for it because we could see our own failings

and our own mistakes in it.

And that was a great celebration.

You needed to be as charismatic as Warne and,

I mean, taking 700 test wickets probably gives you a bit of credit, Russ.

It does.

Not many did.

There's a book that someone could write and it could be called Media Brave

because he was media brave.

So, he wasn't intimidated by what might happen as a result of a headline.

I don't think he was intimidated.

He might have had sleepless nights, but I don't feel like –

I feel like he was brave.

And I don't know, there's many.

Really enjoyed spending some time with Russ and hearing his reflections.

He lights up the world.

You're in, Russ, with his passion and enthusiasm.

If you didn't hear the whole chat,

I encourage you to go back and listen to the episode with Russell Howcroft.

It's not often I get to have someone on the podcast who I both went to school with

back home in South Australia growing up at Ross Trevor College,

but also who scored a goal to send Australia to the World Cup.

We're talking about Australian soccer legend, the great John Aloisi,

coach of Western United, legend of the round ball game.

His coaching philosophy and mindset is incredible.

And you'll hear that right away when he talks about communicating with clarity.

So when I first started coaching, it was like I knew all this stuff.

And it was, you know, you know, so, you know, you would –

but sometimes I look back and I go, did I confuse him?

Because I gave him too many instructions, you know.

So like I said about behavior guidelines, it's simple.

You know, it's not too difficult to understand.

And so the players understand that.

The same with, you know, the tactical guidelines.

They make it as simple as possible so the players know their role.

You know, they know, you know, in a defensive moment what they should be doing.

And, of course, you have to practice it, but they sort of understand this is –

and I have clear, you know, for a defensive moment I'll have a clear word

that someone can scream out so the players go, okay, I know what that means.

You know, in an attacking sense, they know their movements.

They know their patterns.

You know, so I try and make it very clear and concise.

And I –

and it's even when I'm speaking to them.

It's, you know, it's just don't go on and speak for 20 minutes or 30 minutes or whatever

because players switch off.

You know, get them engaged in what you're talking about, you know.

And I got that from television.

I got that from doing a bit of media because people don't want to just, you know,

hear someone just rumble on.

They want to hear what's the message.

You know, what are you trying to get at?

And so I took that into coaching as well.

Look, you can show, you know, the positive.

Look, I like to –

to be positive most of the time anyway with the playing group.

So you're trying to reinforce what your playing structure is.

So you're trying to show them the positive moments.

Yeah.

Because it's very easy to pick up negatives.

Yeah.

But, you know, the player then starts to get a little bit, you know,

seeing a negative moment in training or in a game or whatever,

and they start to self-doubt themselves.

So if you had a percentage on that, are you trying to be, you know,

70% positive highlights, 30% areas to improve,

or is it not as structured as that?

Oh, it's not as structured.

It's just that more or less that, you know,

sometimes you will show a negative,

but that's only because the player hasn't –

if a player miscontrols a ball, I don't care, you know.

If he misses a chance but he's trying to do the right things, I don't care.

But if a player stops trying, that's a negative that I'll show

because, you know, that I don't like and the group –

for us to be successful,

you know, you make a mistake, it doesn't matter, you know.

So let's, you know, fight even harder for the next ball

or don't shy away from it.

And, you know, it's all about being brave.

And I talk a lot about being brave,

being brave in the way that we're playing with and without the ball.

So, you know, a lot of that is, you know, the positive nature.

So, you know, sometimes when you lose, you have to show what we did well.

And when we lose – when we win sometimes is what we could improve on.

Yeah.

And so it's always – you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

about the improvement, I feel.

You know, we're always improving

and that's the positive reinforcement

that I'm trying to give the players.

Results will come and, you know,

but we're improving as a group and as individuals.

Having known John from such a young age,

not surprised by that passion, insight

and so clear on the way that he communicates.

Just a few weeks after the chat,

Western United, the team that John coaches,

went on to secure their maiden A-League championship,

a testament to John's leadership

and the way that he goes about his job day-to-day.

A unique conversation coming up next,

it was another great pleasure to sit down with Peter Singer,

who is known as the world's greatest living philosopher.

You can imagine then that he had some incredible thoughts

on what communicating with clarity means to him.

It certainly doesn't come automatically.

You have to work at it.

I think writing is something that you work at.

If I go back, the first lengthy piece of work

that I wrote was my MA thesis

that I did at Melbourne University for Master of Arts in philosophy.

And if I go back and read that now,

it's not very well written.

And it is, I guess, written more for the other philosophers.

And then I think, you know, if I look at my further writing,

I do make gradual improvements

and being at Oxford certainly helped.

I had a professor there, R.M. Hare,

who actually emphasised clarity of thinking.

And, you know, the method of teaching at Oxford was,

you would write an essay and drop it into your professor's mailbox

and two or three days later you would talk to him about it

and he would go through it line by line.

And if he didn't understand what you were saying,

he would tell you, you know, what does this sentence mean?

What are you saying here?

And that's a really good discipline, I think,

to make sure that what you're saying, you know,

you may know what you were trying to say in this sentence,

but if the sentence doesn't convey that to someone else who's reading it,

that's your problem.

It's not necessarily their problem.

It's your problem for not having expressed yourself sufficiently clearly.

There's much change in the world as we've had in my lifetime for sure

and enormous amounts of fairly significant, you know,

moves from government which, you know,

probably you would think should be debated more than any topic

that we've had in recent times, but there seems to be this fear to do it.

I mean, what's the anecdote to that?

And are you concerned that we don't seem to have that free debate anymore?

Well,

I am concerned that there have been a number of incidents where people

who have tried to promote free discussion and debate have been in some way,

you know, either abused, threatened, or even dismissed from positions,

including university positions, which I think is particularly shocking

given that universities ought to be exactly teaching people how to think

for themselves and not thinking that if you're controversial,

you don't belong at a university.

So I deplore that kind of culture and, in fact,

to try to do something about that, together with a couple of colleagues,

I've started a journal called the Journal of Controversial Ideas,

which is an open access free journal.

You just go to journalofcontroversialideas.org and actually at the end of this,

well, maybe in two or three days, we're going to publish the second issue.

We had the first issue a while ago.

It's, you know, we have peer-reviewed articles.

We don't publish anything.

That's just sort of emotional venting.

But we want to provide a forum where people can publish controversial ideas.

And if they don't want to put their name to it, they can use a pseudonym

because we do know particularly some junior academics who've really been penalized

in their careers by saying something that was worth saying that, you know,

whether you agree with it or not was definitely worth putting out there

and having it discussed, but got so much vitriol as a result of that

that they...

They've found it really hard to take and didn't want to write more on those topics.

So, Pete, in recent times, we've seen the world's richest man buy Twitter with cash.

And we've seen former presidents banned from that platform,

which some people will argue justifiably for mistruths and outrageous comments.

Where do you sit on that?

Where is the line of free speech in social media platforms?

Should people be banned?

Where does that sit?

So, I'm generally a defender of a wide range of freedom of thought and expression.

As I say, as long as it's people are putting arguments or providing evidence for their views.

If someone...

I'm not a supporter of hate speech.

So, if somebody is just pouring out hatred against any particular group,

whether it's a matter of race or sex or, you know, religion or whatever else it might be,

I don't think that belongs in the public forum.

And I think it's reasonable for organizations like Twitter or Facebook to say,

no, we're taking that down.

But if somebody, and that would include the former president of the United States,

wants to put reasons up for what they're saying and defend those claims,

I think that they ought to be there.

I think that ought to be there for other people to refute and show why they think that that's wrong.

But I do think that censoring people is not the way.

I think the way is to refute positions, to hear them out and then to show why they're wrong.

I think we have to try to get back to that idea that we can have reasoned discussions

that can lead us towards the truth.

What a great pleasure it was to speak to Peter Singer.

His book, The Life You Can Save, is a brilliant look at the world of giving

and for me really challenges the way you look.

You look at what you have in your own life.

Now back to the round ball game.

Another Australian soccer legend, Ange Postacoglu,

the head coach of Celtic FC, the Scottish Giants.

But before that, he was the head coach of the Socceroos,

a team that came under a lot of fire.

But hearing Ange speak, you can hear the way that he makes his players feel calm,

even with such an intense pressure surrounding them.

I'm not a massive communicator in that, you know,

I'm not constantly talking to players every day.

You know, I really...

I kind of give a lot of responsibility to the other coaches, the other staff

and even the players themselves to sort of dictate the day-to-day stuff

so they're not constantly hearing my voice.

So when I do talk, I try and make an impact in those moments

and, you know, I put a lot of thought into what I'm going to say

and why I'm saying it.

For me, the key is, as you said, is the clarity of message.

You can't...

Again, I've met so many brilliant people who have the most unbelievable knowledge

and yet when I hear them talk,

particularly in front of a group of people,

it gets lost when those words leave their mouth.

You know, they lose the room, not because of their lack of knowledge,

just their ability to really make that clear and concise

and relatable to the people they're talking to,

the audience they're talking to.

And, you know, I've worked really hard to try and make sure that,

you know, the biggest impact I can have in a communicative sense

is that when I talk, there's a purpose behind it

and it's really clear, you know,

it's not just me talking just for the sake of it.

And I had plenty of examples.

I mean, there was a couple of coaches I had when I was playing.

I remember one, he used to talk for 45 minutes, 50 minutes before training,

you know, and then we'd go out there and all of us would be brain dead by then,

you know, because, you know, we were part-timers back then,

like most sport in Australia, you know,

most of our guys were plumbers and bricklayers

and the last thing they wanted to do was come to training

and listen to the coach talk for 45 minutes,

even though he was a real knowledgeable guy

and what he was saying was great, but I'd go, mate,

it's just not working.

And, you know, I kind of understood early on

that for me to have the biggest impact is that when I spoke,

like I said, there was a purpose of clarity.

I got really challenged in Japan with that

because obviously, you know, that's, like I said,

it's a major, I think it's a major asset I have,

the ability to, in a room of people,

to be able to sort of have a real clarity of purpose in the message

and when language is taken away from you,

because I've got an interpreter,

I've got three interpreters in the room,

that became, you know, real sort of,

real kind of tricky for me to figure out,

well, I'm really relying on another person now

to get this message the way I want to across, you know,

and how do I know?

Because I don't understand what he's saying.

So I'm saying it in English, he's saying it in Japanese,

the Portuguese guy is waiting for him to finish in Japanese

so he can then say it in Portuguese to the Brazilian players,

the Thai translator.

So there's,

there's four or five people talking in a room while I'm talking

and I'm hoping that this isn't Chinese whispers

and my message isn't getting diluted or changing along the way,

saying, so how do you know, you know?

So that was really tough and I ended up,

I think I said to the boys in the coaching group

that I ended up illustrating a bit on,

and I'm a terrible drawer, I'm talking stick figures,

but I ended up going on a whiteboard

and while I'm telling the story,

starting to draw these stick figures

and just making sure that what I'm saying,

they kind of got as clearly as possible

and I still do it now actually,

but the boys get a laugh out of it,

even in Scotland because like I said,

they're terrible drawings,

but your ability to make an impact

and be clear in what you're going to say

is I always felt is probably one of the most

sort of vital roles within the group.

Now to finish off this special episode of Empowering Leaders,

a unique experience,

took the podcast on the road

and recorded this one

from Byron Bay

with the incredible Dr. Arna Rubenstein.

Arna is a global leading expert in rites of passage

that is created for young boys and girls

and the way he communicates with clarity

is truly amazing.

As a father of four,

I found this fascinating,

listening to the top three ways

he describes to be a better parent.

Well, I'm trying to get more and more clarity.

I did write a book called The Making of Men,

Raising Boys to be Happy, Healthy and Successful.

Can I recommend that?

Just, it is brilliant

and I found it really,

you know, Bex here with us today

and I was on the plane,

I was reading it on the way up

and you wanted to pass the page back to her

and then she passed one back to me.

There's a few tears there as well around as a parent.

It's confronting sometimes

and so I recommend if you haven't read Arnie's book,

go and do it.

It's brilliant.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you.

Yes, I agree with you.

And we have sold 25,000 copies around Australia

and around the world.

So that, you know, it's had a good impact

but I'm writing another book

and it's about,

you know, you could call it

Rites of Passage for Dummies

even though that's not what the book would be called

but really explain,

I want to explain to people clearly

about why Rites of Passage are important,

how we can bring them in,

how we can create them

and this idea of having a transformational mindset

and what I mean by that,

we've heard about, you know,

having everyone has a mindset

and we have, we can get to peak mindset

and we talk about a growth mindset

but a transformational mindset is like,

it's that ability to,

find the next thing in our lives

but that's not necessarily just a development

from the thing that we're doing.

It's a, you know, it's another step

and in order to do that,

we have to actually periodically

remove ourselves from our normal life space

and have time, you know, time out.

We actually, you know, time to think about things

and that's why going out into nature is so powerful

or, you know, on a well-run workshop

or things like that.

Where we can leave everything else behind

and actually look at,

well, hang on, let's take some time out.

Who am I?

What's really important to me?

What do I want to be doing?

What do I want to not be doing?

You know, everybody needs to periodically

get those opportunities

so that we can keep growing.

So let me ask you this question.

What's the key then to being a good parent?

I think there are a number of keys to being a good parent.

I think that, you know, parenting is an ongoing journey.

There's no perfect parent.

So it's about recognising it is a journey

and we're always learning.

But some of the key things that we recommend to parents,

if I was going to name three,

is that we make sure we have one-on-one time

with all of our children

so that we actually form a genuine relationship

with all of them,

doing things that we both enjoy and being present.

And, you know, you've got four children, Luke,

so that's a big thing.

But it's even more important when you have more children

that you get some one-on-one time with them regularly.

The second thing is that we practise acknowledging

what they do well and recognising, you know,

that they are different from us,

that they all do have their own gifts.

And a big role for us as parents

is to help them find their gifts, their passion,

their genius and their purpose.

And then the third one is that when our children muck up,

and they will,

they are going to do things they shouldn't do,

they are going to do things that fail and are not okay,

that we don't shame them,

but we actually use it as a learning opportunity

and we support them.

We support them to learn and grow from their mistakes

rather than shaming them,

which unfortunately happens a lot

and has some really negative impact on them.

Dr. Arno Rubenstein there,

one of my favourite chats on the podcast this year.

Well, that finishes off this week's focus

on communicating with clarity.

Next time,

we're going to take a deep,

deep dive into how leaders

that I spoke with throughout 2022

create and share their vision.

And once again,

for me,

there's some incredible insights

that I'm sure you're going to enjoy.

Empowering Leaders is produced by Ed Gooden

with sound design by Matt Currie.

Listener.