a listener production. Hello and welcome to episode three of a special series of Empowering
Leaders, highlighting the dimensions of what great leadership looks like in the 21st century
and some of the remarkable responses I've been getting from the leaders that I've had the
incredible pleasure of talking to right throughout 2022. It has been a great pleasure talking to a
diverse range of guests this year on the Empowering Leaders podcast, each with incredible stories to
tell and unique insight into how they lead. It's these type of insights that align with a great
passion of mine called a leader. You would have heard me talk about it throughout the series in
the year, the business co-founded with my great friend Matt Wadowitz. It's a place where leaders
like the ones you'll hear from today come together to collaborate and to learn from each other
in bespoke unique environments. If you're interested in learning some more about it,
love you to head to a leadercollective.com. We love collaborating with all sorts of leaders
across industry, sport arts, social venture,
you name it. You could be involved in a small business or simply wanting to improve the way
that you impact others in your environment. Encourage you to book a discovery call at a
leader and you can check out our signature Leader Connect program where we come together to learn,
to lead and to collaborate. Now, speaking of collaboration, it's what we think is one of
the most important aspects of so many parts of our lives, from our work relationships.
Collaborating is one of the ways leaders are able to impact their environment and to get the best
out of their team and other people.
Our first highlight is with a member of our Leader Connect family, legendary NBA coach Mike
Dunlap. And I asked Mike about collaborating with others and what it means to him.
It's everything. And that's why the payback on collaboration is don't you dare, if you've had
other people help you, make sure that your door is always open. And, you know, the word yes comes
out of your mouth a lot. You can't always say yes, because sometimes you're just busy and those
things come out of your mouth. And that's why we're here today. And we're here to help you.
But share your information without charge. Be fearless and understand that if you really
believe in your self-esteem and who you are, there are no secrets. I don't think you have to
give everything away. That's not my point. But my point is be generous and be open and,
you know, understand that you're no big deal. You know, nobody's a big deal.
Don't do it that way. You know, do it the other way. And like you said, was it Rubenstein?
Rubenstein, you were talking about earlier. Yeah. And what he's talking about are missing
chips and building those chips within young men in particular. There's been an emasculation
unintentionally of generations now of young men who need to be shepherded through to, like I said,
know how to act and do certain things. But the problem is, is that the imprint or the modeling
is broken. So you have to go through these arduous steps in order to reclaim that soul
and who that young man ultimately is going to be because it's worth it. It's absolutely worth it.
It's imperative then in order to be that and have great energy that you be empathetic and have
compassion. And yet you have to get to, hey, look, we've got to hump it today and we got to get
going. You know, but I think that the positivity,
is the validation of, hey, this is going to be a hard today. This is hard because you got something
else going on. But yes, we can. And yes, we will. And then you roll up your sleeves and whatever
that is, they see you also as a hard worker, as somebody who's not hypocritical, et cetera,
because as a leader, your talent has to be to delegate. I mean, you know, when I say hard worker,
if you're constantly down in the engine room, then you have no sight of where the ship is going.
And so you have to, you know, modulate. You have to be up there. Then you kind of got to move
down there, get into the boiler room, be empathetic, validate, and then say, hey,
that's a great job, especially when things are good. We call it praise, prompt, and lead. The
prompt is, hey, there's what you did with the shovel to get the coal in the stove. Let me show
you a better way.
You know, and now you show it. So you're kind of being critical because you say you've got a
better way that he might slope his shoulders or she might slope her shoulders. And so you have
to say, hey, you see that body language there? That's not going to play well because we're going
to move through a couple of buyers here. And so we need to have a better shoulders back, eyes up,
greet them. You're important. And I think you're damn good at what you do. I think you're the best.
But I'm going to tell you right now,
you got to do better with those shoulders back and give me some eye contact. We got that? Boom.
And then walk away from them. You don't have to sit there and admonish them. And you praised them.
You gave them a compliment. You prompted them. You told them and showed them what you want.
And now get away from them. And so those are all methodologies. So positivity sounds good,
but it's amoeba-like and you have to be more specific with it. And you have to have
techniques and skills in order to distribute.
So that it's not just a puff of smoke.
Well, that has got to be one of my favorite conversations this year.
Coming from a sporting background, hearing the way Mike is empowering his team with collaboration
and that get in the trenches mindset is fascinating to see. If you didn't hear the
whole Mike Dunlap episode, go back. The Miracle Morning is something that you want to learn from
for sure. Love catching up with Mike Dunlap. So staying in the sporting landscape, I had the
pleasure of chatting with Lakeisha Patterson, or Lucky as she's more commonly known,
six-time world record-holding Paralympian who has overcome mental and physical challenges,
which are so difficult to fathom. It was Lucky's grit and determination that got her to where she
is today. But the humble way in which she presents herself has come through when she talks about the
collaboration she has with her team, her parents, and others that have helped her along the way.
It's so important and so vital. And I would not be where I am today without the support of
my team around me. I think it is incredibly...
important and vital to everyone that they have a network around them. It definitely does take a
village to... Well, it's taken a village to raise me and to get me along this journey that I'm on.
And it's not always easy, I suppose, being an athlete and to get sponsors and people that
are willing to invest in you and help you out throughout your journey. And I am very
fortunate to have had incredible people around me. And I want to make sure that the people that
I work with align with my values and I align with theirs so that we can get the most out of
the collaboration and the partnership. And I can give back as much as they've been able to help me.
It's really special. And I suppose, from my family, my friends, my teammates, my squad,
to my sponsors supporting me with my recovery, my training, where all the little things like that is
I think it's really important for me to be able to grow and achieve the best that I can. And also
sharing what they do and the different organizations and how they can help different people in different
areas. It's all really just networking as well and being able to get into that space. And this
could help someone else. This could help you. And it's really made an impact in my life and
hope it can to others. So for those that don't know me, I was born with
cerebral palsy, left hemiplegia due to the trauma I sustained during birth. So essentially,
I was born breech, blue and not breathing. So it was a little bit of a tricky situation. And
essentially, down the line, because of that trauma sustained, I was diagnosed with cerebral
palsy. So essentially, that means that the left side of my body doesn't quite work as well as my
right. I don't have as much function, balance, coordination.
And a little challenging things along the way. So I can't fully open my left hand as well as
balance and kind of dragging my left foot a little bit. So my right side is definitely more dominant
and I have to do a lot compared to my left. But I suppose for myself, I've just been accustomed to
being able to adapt from a very young age. And alongside that, I was also diagnosed with epilepsy
And mycographia at 12, meaning that my writing is extremely minute. So I have to use technology
to be able to communicate. So it's pretty awesome that we are able to live in the world that we live
in today, that I am able to be able to communicate with people. But yeah, I suppose for a lot of
people, it can be seen as quite a lot of challenges. But for myself, I've just been raised to be able
to overcome anything that's come my way. And I definitely don't see it as a disadvantage at all.
It's a remarkable story. At the age of five,
is when you were diagnosed with epilepsy and reading some of your life story,
a theory that I think you were suggesting that perhaps it was on the back of a bad
batch of vaccinations. And I'm going back to Lucky. I'm here talking to Lucky and a lot of
people would think, God, how much hardship does one person have to endure? How much bad luck? I
mean, do you remember ever thinking, why me at some stage along the way?
I think it's definitely very easy for a lot of people when they come into these difficult
Why me? And I definitely am human as well. And I have gone through that. I suppose
when I was younger, I didn't really know anything different. So I don't think I really had that
mindset then until, you know, growing up a little bit more and actually being aware of these
differences compared to my classmates around primary school and high school age. But I suppose
for myself, I was just growing up with an incredibly strong mom who raised myself and my two
other sisters on her own. And she really instilled in me that power of being able to do things that I
wanted to do. And I think that's something that I've always wanted to do. And I think that's
something that I've always wanted to do. And I think that's something that I've always wanted to do.
And, you know, it's not what happens to you, it's how and what you make of it and how you can
overcome those circumstances. And yeah, it is a bit ironic that my name and nickname is Lucky,
but I suppose for myself, it's also a great way of showing that despite what
challenges have been thrown my way, I have seen the other side of it. So yeah, it's all,
I suppose, how you approach the situation. Well, what an incredible athlete, incredible
insight. Lucky Patterson.
Lucky Patterson. Great to catch up with her. Next conversation was really special to me. Farmer
Dave Graham, a changemaker in every sense of the word. He runs a program called Rough Track,
spelt R-U-F-F. It's an organization helping at-risk kids get their life off a path of
potentially dangerous behavior and onto a clearer, more focused way of living. Dave's insights
highlight just how the program uses collaboration to help kids and their families get back on track.
You can't raise a kid without a village. So we have our tracker network, which is,
there's nine of our organizations throughout New South Wales and Queensland. So we're constantly
collaborating with each other about what it is that we can do in each of our communities. We
catch up every two months. We all visit each of us in our silos to make sure we break down that
silo within their own community because this job can be all consuming. But this organization,
Rough Track, only started with heat.
The kids are coming to us. They're enemy number one on all fronts. But today when I took the bus,
a busload of kids out to do some flood recovery work, stopped on the side of the road in our bus
and then right next to us was a PCYC full of cops. Kids are all having a yarn to them. And that's
when you know you're breaking down barriers. So when you collaborate with the enemy, you find out
that they're not actually the enemy. And that's when you know you're breaking down barriers.
And that's when breaking down barriers, whichever direction you can go, be it the general public,
again, a lot of our kids hate the general public because they think the general public hates them.
And giving them the opportunity to have a pathway of communication to be able to
get a hand and give a hand. It's just everything that we do is collaboration. And, you know,
oftentimes just getting our kids to work together on a project to lift something that's heavy to
together. You've got to communicate and you've got to work together to be able to get that because
I guarantee you every kid that comes here, the first thing that he's going to do if I ask him
to help out is drop it and go, fuck this. Fuck, this is shit. But give him a couple of weeks or
give her a couple of weeks and they're like, okay, ready? One, two, three, and away they go.
And then they're communicating with each other about how it is they're going to get that heavy
object to where they want to go. And then afterwards the smile on their face when they get something
as a team, where they want it to go, which is exactly what I saw only about an hour ago,
when the last three kids left here, they built a huge big fire pit, a big, massive metal fire pit
with rough track on the side. And they had to get it in one of the kid's boots of his mum's car.
And the fact that they all got it in there and then I just saw them all turn around and
smile and high five each other. It's just like, that's gold, that's collaboration.
And I mentioned in the preamble that you're an internationally renowned a dog trainer and the,
use of dogs in the Rough Track program is at the core of the program as well. Is that for every
child? Does every child get to select a dog? Is that part of it? Yeah, that's what does make us
unique in the tracker network, which is that every kid does get a dog. I mean, we've got 30 dogs here,
so every kid gets to bond with their own dog. And it's just crazy cool how each different child,
depending on their own personality type and their excitement levels, which dog they end up
choosing. And of course, the dog's got to choose them as well. They've got to have a coming together
of the relationship because kids need to learn how to manage a relationship. Often they don't
have good role models of what a healthy relationship looks like. So having that relationship with their
dog is teaching them how to have a healthy relationship moving forward to break any
domestic violence cycles that they maybe have dealt with themselves. I mean,
Let's face it. I mean, in our young people, some of them are domestic violence perpetrators
themselves, and some of them have received that in their own young relationships, let alone their
family relationships. So that dog is teaching them how to be kind, how to be compassionate,
but also how to communicate effectively without language. You know, you can't just say to a dog,
hey, do this. You know, you've got to use body language. And oftentimes when a teenager,
we've all seen it. We've been at ourselves. They don't give much. They grunt. And their body
language is usually, I hate the world when you see them first thing in the morning because they don't
want to be out of bed. They were playing games all night on their computer. So, you know, it's
learning how to activate a dog and how to activate a relationship by being involved, by being present,
but also making sure that the mood isn't just done by your words, but also done by your behavior.
So that behavioral exchange coming from the dogs is...
Absolutely key to giving these kids that strong ability to create healthy relationships.
And I don't think non-dog lovers quite appreciate what you're saying. Dennis,
this blue staffie in our house is, but I say this seriously, is by far and away the most important
contributor to the house. And I've got four kids, three teenagers, one turns 12 next week.
They pour, the teenagers, they pour their love into Dennis. And that's how they express themselves
because he doesn't yell back. He doesn't tell them to make their bed. And he's got this
incredible intuition around, you know, who's having an off day. And I love that you're
extrapolating that out to kids. And I suppose the brilliant part too, is that at the end of it,
I understand that you make them pass that back on at the end, don't you? So it's not a dog for life.
It's, this is a learning experience. Can you explain why that's important as well?
Yeah. So the idea of being able to give, give an opportunity to, the idea is that,
you can love something and love it, holus bolus, and it's, it's your everything and it's your
whole world, but then you've got to let go. And oftentimes men aren't taught to let things go.
And that's why we have these terrible atrocities that happen in our society of crimes against,
and mostly, mostly women, but also men, because we don't know how to let go of something that we
love because not all relationships are forever. In fact, most relationships we have for short
periods of time, we don't know how to let go of something that we love. And that's why we have
but they can be very intense. So to have that skill of being able to form this amazing
relationship, to work together, to camp in your swag together as the kids do with their dogs
and, and really build this beautiful relationship that takes them to, you know,
audiences of tens of thousands, which the kids perform with their dogs together right around
Australia. But then to be able to let it go is such a unique part of the program, which,
the knowledge that that kid is ready for the world and is ready as a fully fledged adult that
knows that I can love, but I can let go. And I don't need to hold on or force a relationship to
continue when it's past its use by date. So when a kid comes to me and says, Hey, you know, I'm
ready to move on. All I'm waiting for that young person to say is that, and I really want my dog
to stay in the program for another young person. And that's when I know that kid has broken the
cycle of domestic violence and broken the cycles of dependency and, and is, is no longer anything
but a self-empowered, resilient, young person ready to take on the world with their boots on
and their, their brain set for the abilities to really give back to society as an independent
human. Collaboration is such an important part of leadership as we see it in great leaders in
the 21st century. It's a big focus for the work that we're doing at Alita. And one of the
people that we've had the pleasure of including in our leadership pods, our signature program,
Alita Connect is the great Ange Postacoglu, coach of footballing giant Celtic FC. Ange has been a
great advocate for collaboration and he's part of one of our Alita Connect signature programs.
He catches up on a regular basis with Luke Beveridge from the Western Bulldogs and the AFL,
Neil Craig, legend of high performance, Brian Gorgian, who is an Australian basketball coaching
legend. But you don't have to be a world-leading coach like that group to contribute and engage
with one of our Alita Connect programs. Encourage you to check it out. So with those conversations
being had, when I asked Ange about how he's collaborating, not surprising to me that he
had such a diverse and remarkable insight. I'm probably a little bit old school in that,
in that, you know, I've kind of haven't had mentors or people I've felt. And as I said
earlier, I think maybe if I was starting out again in today's world, I maybe wouldn't take
do it the way I've done it. But within that though, now, even now,
I still know that what's really important for me is the people I work with, not just
the players, but the staff. They're a vital sort of conduit to me creating the right environment.
So in every aspect of it, they're my collaborators. They're the people I work with every day.
And I try to empower them as much as I possibly can, give them as much responsibility, almost
like they feel like they're in charge. And in many respects, they are, even though I'm
I've got sort of my fingerprints all over it. You know, as the old adage of, you know,
I tell people what to do, but I don't tell them how to do it. You know, that's what they
bring to the table. You know, whatever your role is, this is your role. This is what I
want you to do. But man, do it your way, you know, bring your own personality. And in a
sense, those people, rather than, I think in the end, feeling like they're working for
you, they're working with you, you know, and I think that's really important. And, you
know, I think that's what I want to do. And I think that's what I want to do. And I think
that's what I want to do. And I think that's what I want to do. And I think that's what
I want to do. And I think that's what I want to do. And I think that's what I want to do.
But I, in kind of, in my game, it's pretty common practice that when you move around
as a kind of coach or a manager, you take a group of people with you because there's
a sense of security in that and people understanding. And I've tried to shy away from that. I've
kind of moved myself. So even when I went to Celtic, I kind of went there on my own,
which was very unusual. And everyone sort of found it bizarre that I'd move sort of
halfway across the world and not take anyone with me, no staff member, no one who already
And, you know, sort of a trusted ally. I was literally walking in and I was the only new
person in there. Everyone else was there from last year. And, you know, how do you get those
people? But I love that because that means there's another group of people I've got to
sort of get to believe in me and this new vision. So that means I'm going to be at my
best. I'm on super high alert. Whereas if I'd taken half a dozen people with me, maybe
that would dull those senses a little bit because I know, well, he's got that in, he
already knows what he's doing. He already knows what he's doing. So, you know, I'm
kind of not at my best. So when I do that, it means that I need to then make sure that,
you know, everyone who's working with me feels part of, you know, an important part of the
machine we're kind of building. And so, you know, for me, that's where the collaboration
comes in is that even though I'm kind of, like I said, in many respects, people would
look at me and say, well, he's very old school in the way I work in terms of I'm kind of
the dominant leader.
I think when you walk into the Watch Us work, you wouldn't get that sense. I think you'd
see that everyone is working hard at it. Everyone has responsibility. Everyone's a leader in
their own right. Celtic in Glasgow, it goes beyond that because for the people who love
that football club, they're not supporters. They're not fans. You know, it's not for them
that, you know, they look forward to a game. It's for them, it's part of their life. It's
as much a part of their life. It's an extended family member. And I'm not talking about a
distant family member. This is a family member that they bring into their household, that
sits at the dinner table with them, that organises their year, organises their, you know, their
significant moments. You know, so when we're getting the fixture list out on Friday and
people will map out the whole year, the next 12 months around the fixture list. And that's
because it's generational.
It's been passed down from, you know, great grandparents to great grandparents to fathers
and sons and mothers and daughters. And for that, then you walk into that and understand
that everything I do, whether that's not just in a game sense, but every time I speak or
every time, you know, I'm seen or I'm heard from has an impact on that each and every
household. It's massive.
And then you put the expectations, because it is a league where, you know, when you look
at it at the moment, it's Rangers and Celtic that have been the most dominant by far clubs
and people think, oh, well, at least you guarantee, you know, you're going to be successful.
But what people don't understand is that finishing second in this league is you may as well finish
last. It's not, it's not well done. You know, you got close. Second is not, so every year
the expectations are you will win and you will be successful. So all of that sort of
encompassed is, is, it is, it's, it's, it's probably one of the most sort of high profile
pressurised positions in terms of the football club. The flip side of that is I love it.
You know, I mean, that's, that's what I've always wanted. And my frustrations with Australia
and Australian soccer was, it was always being that it wasn't the people who loved the game
or the people who hated the game. It was the apathy that sort of landed in between, which
was probably the biggest part of it.
People just didn't care. You know, I mean, even when people had a crack at soccer in
Australia, I, I kind of, I didn't mind that because, okay, that's, that's somebody being
passionate about it. And the ones who love it in Australia, you know, even that, there
was, you know, we weren't even a united voice in that, but that, I could live with that.
But it was the apathy in between that, you know, people just didn't care that it just
would churn in my guts because I love this thing. This was my passion. So now to be right
smack bang in the centre of it. It almost like,
this is where I was supposed to end up at some point in my career, you know.
Ange Postacoglu there, one of the great coaches in world sport and one of the highlights of
the year for me. Starting in the world of sport now, but moving from pitch side to pool
side, I got to talk to Olympic great Ariane Titmuss. The Tokyo Olympics were the stage
for Ariane's greatness. She became a dual Olympic gold medalist as she beat out the
great American, Katie Ledecky. The memorable moment outside of the pool being
a coach, Dean Boxall's incredible celebration. And it's a relationship that Ariane touches
on when I asked her about what collaboration means to her.
Certainly Dean is my biggest partner through all of this. There's obviously a lot of other
people that play a big role. But he is someone who we made this deal. If he writes the program
the best that he can, I will execute it the best that I can. And so it certainly is a
partnership. I couldn't do it without him. He's quite an eccentric person. He's got a
very eccentric personality and I don't think that he would work well with some people because
he does set such high standards and he has quite an out there personality. But for some
reason he just found the key to me and we just clicked straight away. And I think our
personalities just gel perfectly. I mean, you'd think that they'll probably clash because
I'm quite opinionated and out there and, you know, quite fiery, but, but it's, it's, it's
it just works. And I think probably because of our work ethic, we work really well together.
He gets quite frustrated if he sees things not being done the best that they can be.
And so I try to do everything as best I can to keep the peace as well. But it's more so
with us, it's about making deals. And so, I mean, even this week, I've just come back
from break and he said to me, you know, are you giving me the green light to go? Like
we've got less than two years. Are you giving
the green light to go and and put you under pressure and um go through those hard moments
again and and for me it's not even a question um for sure like if he he's got to do what he's got
to do to get the best out of me and some people can't handle that but um i'm i'm open to anything
to get get more out of me and and reach my potential and i he just knows how to how to get
that and i love hearing that he does ask that question and he's and he knows the answer i'm
assuming but without asking it you're not part of the process are you and then to hear you say
hey i've signed up to that he's done his best and he's working overtime and not sleeping at night
i'm going to hold up my end of the bargain as best i can it's great you know we're a bit obsessed
with leadership and leadership stories but in the past that wouldn't have been a coach
relationship is having you part of the once you sign on i'm assuming all bets are off you know
you then do your best but uh it sounds like you're included in it uh to that point yeah well he always
when he was an age group coach i had an age grouper come to me and go i want to win at national age
and he goes okay if you want to win then you have to understand what that's going to take so
um are you ready to sign on to what i'm gonna have to do to get the best out of you and
and they go yeah yeah yeah and then you know training happens and they get put under pressure
and they've got to repeat things and and they don't like it and you know he goes well you're
the one that came to me and said you want to win he said you telling me you want to win is the worst
because it gives me the right to go after you and try and get the best out of you but
for me um i love it i love being pushed to the limit i love doing the repeats i
love having the feeling of knowing that while my competitors are done training and or asleep
on the other side of the world i'm here doing the extra and um i think that's why we work so
well together the coach and athlete relationship is always meaningful and special but hearing the
and dean work together and collaborate is a remarkable insight to finish off the conversation
in a space that's really important to me and i'm sure many others being a father of four education
and the way our kids are learning and being taught is one of the greatest responsibilities in our
society so when i got to sit down with christine causey one of australia's leading educators and
principal at rudy hill high school in the western suburbs of sydney i was able to get a meaningful
and practical insight into how collaboration has worked well for her
and the school i think it has worked very well for us at rudy hill around our strategic projects
it does work particularly well in education when you've got people who who not only have the shared
interest in what they're doing but also have a shared expertise i think we face some real
challenges of embarrassing people when we insist on having people forced collaboration
uh i like to think of i i actually don't try not to
use the word too much we did a big executive project where we tried to define collaboration
at rudy hill high school and what we ended up deciding was we weren't very collaborative we
were just a school and um it was pretty it was pretty funny because we read everything
uh we read everything and it ended up being the most hilarious discussion as we tried to put it
together but what we those with an interest need to be able to share it that's collaborative
and collaborative is it's it's really quite critical
for building your culture if you want to have a kind of shared culture
so one of the reasons the student agency is so important at rudy hill
is because they're part of the collaboration
uh they are they're very much part of the collaboration and they're very much part of
the conversation uh so again we must never think that young people should be left out of it they're
not there to be done to now they're there to interact with us and give us feedback and help us
i like to think we have a very high level of collaboration at rudy hill and i also work
with a number of colleagues in our local area and i like to think we're highly collaborative too
but boy covid posed some challenges that was legendary australian educator christine causey
there taking us to the end of a remarkable insight into collaboration and how some of
this year's guests have gone about leading teams and working with others throughout their incredible
lives next week a focus on communication and how the leaders at rudy hill have been able to
we've spoken to through this year have gone about communicating with clarity and sending
meaningful long-lasting messages empowering leaders is produced by ed gooden with sound
design by matt curry listener